@@vverbov22 vultures aren't units. You are paying for the mines only. Vultures by themselves are suicidal recon that do less damage than marines. Almost like Vehicular banelings (with mines available).
@@virajkhatri7574 Two-shotting probes and doing 20(+2) damage to all shields and 19(+2) damage to zealot life is definitely not "less damage than marines". They also have a moving shot and the highest movespeed in the game which makes expanding against them a pain in the ass. Hardly a non-unit.
Arbiter gets S for me because of not just its abilities, but also its passive cloak forcing your opponent to automatically need a detector in their micro
The problem with Arbiters is that against Zerg, they get wrecked by Scourge, and against Protoss, generally doesn’t go Stargate because they can’t really hold off gateway robo during the transition.
@@jimmydelcid8779I'm referring to pro play not my play..... corsair is a fast as scourge so they can run away. Vessel is slower than scourge so a vessel can't just run away, scourge will get it. Of course marines are usually around but a major part of pro play ZvT is sending scourge and trying to kill vessels
Vessel is too good against Zerg, but not as good vs T & P. They could have made irradiate do dmg to tanks and stuff, but do more dmg to bio rather than only doing dmg to bio. EMP shockwave should have cost less mana maybe.
Dude Tasteless approached this so rationally lolll. Impressive. So systematic and structured and clear. so different from what we saw with Artosis and Scan lul
I disagree about artosis. I think he had the most accurate list. Scan's was the only one that deserves any serious criticism. I still don't know if he was trolling or just doesn't understand how a tier list works, but it has to be one of those two.
@@chewie481 The thing Tasteless gets wrong is his claim that he wasn't going to take into account the viability of a unit in multiple matchups. That doesn't make any sense. If a unit is good in every matchup it's a clear point of evidence of the value of it.
Constructing a pylon and especially supply depot has an opportunity cost because the worker used can't mine minerals for that time. In practice they therefore cost more than 100 minerals. Overlords in turn cost only larvae which generate for free over time, but each larva used on an overlord can't be used for a combat unit. Later in the game a single albeit expensive upgrade turns all your flying supply depots into drop ships. Did I mention that they are also detectors? Their detection was locked behind a mutation in SC2 for a reason.
I think you can argue that a larva has certainly more value than a probe's mining time loss to build a pylon (it's maybe 24 minerals). Also that larva could have been a drone instead, so imho your logic would dictate that the opportunity cost of a overlord is the mining that lost drone could have done till the rest of the game.
@@impossibleexperiments You have to make overlords for supply, but overlords are also much more vulnerable than pylons or supply depots. You can't harass pylons with corsairs or wraiths. If they were this vulnerable and didn't do so much extra stuff zerg as a race would be bad.
Yeah devourers are E+.... they're the only E unit that has a legit unique role but late game ZvZ is super rare. Also late game ZvZ the S++++ unit is defiler. One plague can take 50 muta to 1 health. Literally late have ZvZ is two players with tons of muta trying to dodge plague
Dropship is the worst of the 3 transports by far. costs the most, easiest to blow up. Slower than shuttle, while overlords are slower but expendable and have more functions.
@@davidawesome4569 All static defense structures deal full damage to transports, so the shield point is moot. Also practically every anti-air attack in Brood War is ballistic or explosive, and the transports are large. Shields or not, it doesn’t really matter since everything will be doing full damage to them. Also 10 HP isn’t that much of a difference, especially when shuttles are faster than dropships. Dropships costing gas was a mistake.
Overlord definitely A. How much map control it brings is insane. It is like an observer but gives supply and detector at the start of the game. I think SCV should be atleast B. They don't regenerate and stuff yeah but they're hard to harass due to natural 60hp. They even tank stuff like dragoons and bug the hell out of ultras like they're meant to combat and not as a worker.
Map control with overlord? Unless you enjoy having them all sniped by corsair or wraith deathballs and being supply blocked all game long, then no, they aren't good. Not even for map control.
@@abstractdaddy1384yeah, he should’ve said scouting instead of map control. But overlord scouting has a trade off of losing supply when they get sniped.
Artosis's ranks Terran units: BBBEEE Protoss units: SSSSSS Zerg units: AAASSS. by the way, did you see afreecatv on FB had put a video about Tastosis's chicken joke. That's legit
That was such a rollercoaster ride. I was waiting for siege tank to go back to S.😂 Tank definitely does have counters, but it's the backbone of mech terran. The siege damage is ridiculous.
Great list! My only suggestion is arbiter == vessel. In TvP, the player that uses their flying support better usually wins. I would give vessel slight edge because it is a game decider in TvZ
@@Pav298 yeah Id say for every game an arbiter does something good and helps win the game there are 3 games where thr arbiter screws everything up and makes it worse. Like a game I watched last night. Stasis all the tanks were nice but that created a nice blockade/shield that didnt let the zealots get to the units behind and backfired
@@Pav298 great video hahaha...yeah problem is Arty isn't a korean pro. He put 8 tanks all in a clump by themselves waiting to be statised. When korean pros play I never see more than 3 tanks get statised because they spread them out once they see arbs
It's interesting cause I feel like he rates on very similar criteria to Artosis, but comes to different conclusions, and it feels like most of this is because of artosis' terran bias vs his protoss bias. (I was highly amused when Tasteless had vultures rated higher than tanks; very protoss perspective there). The obvious problems with this list strike me as... * Hydra above Dragoon. They're the same kind of unit, but Dragoon is overall better. Splash damage is all ridiculously strong in brood war; tanks, reavers. Dragoons do well against splash because they have 180 HP. Hydras die to splash cause they have 80 HP. Like...sure, hydras are slightly cost effective in the hydra vs dragoon head to head matchup, because hydras are medium so they don't take full damage. But no, Dragoons are overall a better unit. (Hydras to B, probably. Dragoons to A. Some argument for Hydras below goliaths and marines, cause both of those can fend off mutas, hydras can't). * Lurkers shouldn't be in S tier. It's the ranged splash damage option that zerg has, but it's miles worse than a reaver or a siege tank or a high templar. Like...bio is viable against lurkers, that should tell you how much less impactful lurkers are, cause bio is not viable against other types of splash like siege tanks or reavers. Probably B tier. * Ultras shouldn't be in A tier. If I'm not mistaken, an equal cost group of zealots beats an ultralisk. Ultralisks cost 4x as much, so...four zealots? Yeah, that should beat an ultra if my calculations are right. No way are they the same tier as zealot. This is another situation like lurker where zerg just needs a unit to fill a role, and ultra fills the role, but it's not the ultra that's doing the heavy lifting in that composition (spoilers: it's the zergling). * Scourge should move up from C tier. As far as pure air-to-air units go, scourge are at least on the level of corsairs, probably better. (And Corsair is in B). * Arbiters above high templar feels a little weird to me. Like, I get it, arbiters are a bit game defining; the fact that stasis exists means Terran can't go battlecruisers, even if BCs would do fine against protoss in a world without stasis. But you could say pretty similar things about reavers making bio non-viable against protoss. Bottom line, I just don't think arbiters get built often enough to justify an S tier. S tier is like...your opponent knows you're going to make these units before the countdown is done, and there's nothing they can do. Arbiters...definitely don't get made every game (even PvT). Arbiter probably A tier. * SCV probably should be higher than C tier. Workers are always hard to rate, but I tend to think of them in terms of "stuff they do outside of making buildings and gathering minerals." This can be manner pylons, blocking an expansion, being brought as part of a rush, repairing, cannon rushing, building turrets. For SCVs, making a contain with siege tanks and turrets is good. Proxy rax into bunker is good. Repair is good. They're the worst scout, sure but they still scout. Like...sure, drones are a better scout, but they can't make turrets next to siege tanks or repair. If you told a terran they had to pick between having their SCVs never leave their base, or not building wraiths or battlecruisers or valkyries--I think that's an easy answer. Easy SCV. Just...feels like a cut above the terran units in C. --- On the flip side, stuff I like a lot about this list: * Completely agree with Overlord in A tier (above shuttles and dropships). Yeah, overlords are really good. Half the cost of shuttles and dropships (arguably effectively free cause they provide supply). Also detectors. * Completely agree with Corsairs in B tier. Artosis I seem to recall had Corsairs somewhere really low. Yeah, D-tier. Gotta side with Tasteless on this one. Tied for the fastest flying speed. Can moving shot. Tons of HP for the cost. Medium so they take 75% damage from nearly everything that hits air. (Mutas are light, which is hilariously OP, but corsairs being medium is still pretty powerful). * Agree with rating marine up in B tier. Artosis kneejerked Marines low (in C tier below goliaths), and I think that's what my intuition would have done as well. But after Artosis' video I spent some time thinking about how to tier units, discussing it in youtube comments, trying to formalize a system, and man, it's such a big deal for a unit to cost only minerals, and to be available from the start of the tech tree. Marines might be miles worse than zerglings, vultures, and zealots, but they're still in that category. Playing without them would suck, and both protoss and zerg would do interesting things with them if they were moved to those tech trees. (Toss would stick marines behind zealots for early rushes. Zerg would have much earlier wall-busting rushes, and also have a mineral dump that can shoot mutas in zvz).
I think hydra > goon because of hydra bust. How many ZvP are won at 7 minutes by pure hydra? A lot. How many PvZ are won by dragon bust? None. Lurker by itsself may not be S but because of dark swarm I think they're S. Lurkers are practically invulnerable vs terran under swarm. Tanks can't hit them. Just iradiate (too hard once they have mass lurker), yamato (not effective) and firebats (good luck with that) I think Scourge are C because they dont actually kill very often. Corsairs run from them. Marines kill them before they get to vessels and muta micro is so good now they can kite scourge and kill scourge before scorge can land any hits. They're important, they drive away sairs early but they aren't great units I agree with the rest though, especially arbiters.... no way they're S tier.
@@Sc9cvsd "How many PvZ are won by dragon bust? None. " I mean,, dragoons are used to bust out of lurker contains, but overall sure, in specifically PvZ, hydras are probably more impactful than dragoons But what about when we look at all the other matchups? Protoss vs Terran generally involves protoss spending most of their gas on dragoons. Zerg vs Terran rarely involves the zerg messing around with hydras. Protoss vs Protoss usually becomes dragoon reaver against dragoon reaver. Nobody makes hydras in zerg vs zerg. And the main reason the one specific matchup of PvZ has more hydras than dragoons is that hydras happen to be a rock-paper-scissors counter to dragoons (hydras are medium so they take 25% less damage from dragoon shots). If we removed the rock-paper-scissors mechanic, pretty sure mass dragoons would just beat mass hydras. 6 range vs 5 range, and otherwise comparable stats for the cost. "Lurker by itsself may not be S but because of dark swarm I think they're S. Lurkers are practically invulnerable vs terran under swarm. Tanks can't hit them. Just iradiate (too hard once they have mass lurker), yamato (not effective) and firebats (good luck with that)" I mean, my inclination is to give the credit there to defilers and not to lurkers. Imagine if instead of Lurkers zerg had an actually good unit under the dark swarm, like a reaver. That would be way, way harder to break. Not to mention, with the rise in popularity of crazy zerg (where you go straight to hive after mutas and get ultralisks with carapace upgrades as the first hive tech) it's becoming more common to see TvZs with no lurkers built. "I think Scourge are C because they dont actually kill very often. Corsairs run from them. Marines kill them before they get to vessels and muta micro is so good now they can kite scourge and kill scourge before scorge can land any hits. They're important, they drive away sairs early but they aren't great units" I think you may be underestimating just how inexpensive scourge are. Five scourge cost about the same as one corsair. Seven scourge cost about the same as one SV. Two scourge cost the same as one observer (and one-shot the observer). They get built in every matchup because even if half of them don't connect, they're still cost-effective. You also have to think about the strategies that are shut out by scourge. Like...you never see protoss trying to use arbiters to recall against zerg. Recall theoretically could be great against zerg--but scourge just make it so risky. And also...just look at the other units in C tier. Do you really think scourge are on the same tier as Wraiths and Valkyries? I just don't see a strong argument for scourge being C tier. Artosis had them in A tier, although I'm not entirely locked in on A tier either. Maybe there's an argument for B tier? I will say, though, just comparing to a previously mentioned unit, that zerg would probably be more crippled if they were told that they couldn't build scourge than if they were told they couldn't build lurkers. ZvZ and ZvT would suffer more from the lack of scourge than lurkers (lurkers not mattering in ZvZ, and zerg having an easier time finding a replacement for lurkers in ultras than finding a replacement for scourge ZvT). ZvP...not sure.
Very nice reasoning and breakdown Kaitlyn! I agree with basically all your points, except the Ultralisk one. First, I have to point out that their combat ability vs zealots in equal cost matters too little. If that would be an important comparison in general, the whole tier list would look drastically different. Also, minerals and gas I'd say are not interchangeable. Oh, and more important, an ultra takes the supply of only 2 zealots. By that metric, an ultralisk mops the floor with 2 zealots. Second, zerglings do the heavy lifting, but they have plenty of counters. That ultralisk can ignore/power trough most of them. And would do so better than 2 to 4 zealots would. For example, splash damage. 4 zealots won't be better vs spider mines, reaver scarabs, psionic storms or versus archons, even though they're more and they're medium. And archons in particular are devastating vs zerlings. Ultralisks are also much more resilient vs irradiate. Especially versus marines, I'd say they're better than 4 zealots, because of their high armor (and might be even be "helped" when irradiated vs fighting marines). Their damage is not as devastating as the zerlings' is but their tanking is exceptional. And really, since they zerg already have zerlings, it's not damage output that they needed, and so the ultralisk fills the zerg ranks quite well. The only good argument for them being tier B is that they are expensive. But if you do have the money, they're so devastating, they usually just win the game. For that reason I'd say they qualify for tier A.
@@Winnetou17 Interesting thoughts on ultras, but doing some more number crunching and testing I'm...still really not sold for ultras being placed so high. "Also, minerals and gas I'd say are not interchangeable." True, but typically gas is more important (certainly more important for zerg) so in some ways that makes ultras more than 4x as expensive as a zealot. I'm guessing most zergs would consider it a big buff if Ultras were changed to cost 400 minerals instead of 200/200. "Oh, and more important, an ultra takes the supply of only 2 zealots. By that metric, an ultralisk mops the floor with 2 zealots." At least based on pro brood war games I've watched I just don't think supply matters for zerg units; zergs never even get close to maxing out, especially when going ultra ling. If a zerg is at 130 supply, it's like "wow, so much supply". Supply is an important factor in some other matchups for sure. Supply is fairly important in TvT for example. But zergs are just not really looking for maximum value for supply (if BW zergs were worried about that kind of thing they'd make more guardians and devourers--2 supply units that cost about as much as an ultra!) (Though sure, if you put ultras in a scenario where supply mattered, one ultra has the combat effectiveness of roughly 3 zealots, so they'd be a bit more supply efficient). "For example, splash damage. 4 zealots won't be better vs spider mines, reaver scarabs, psionic storms or versus archons, even though they're more and they're medium." Sure, in general higher HP units do better against splash damage, that's part of what makes dragoons a better unit than hydras. I feel like there's a few footnotes on splash damage though. * Zealots do better against probably the best splash unit--siege tanks just due to damage typing. It takes like 6 siege tank shots to kill an ultra, and 4 siege tank shots to kill a zealot, but zealots are so much cheaper, so if they spread even a little bit they'll do better than ultras. * Spider mines are weird. Like...sure, if you get a clump of zealots hit by a spider mine that's worse than getting a clump of ultras hit by a spider mine. But I'd also much rather do mine drag mines onto the terran army using zealots than ultras. The unit that does the mine drag is going to die, so you'd rather it be a cheap unit (while still being tanky enough to stay alive for the mine drag). But also just in general, for tanky melee units, splash isn't always the way to counter them. Like...I generally wouldn't want to use storm against someone using zealots. In a fight it's hard to hit only the zealots and no friendly units, and even if you do perfectly position storm it takes more than one storm to kill a zealot. "Ultralisks are also much more resilient vs irradiate." I mean, I think irradiate is a better counter to ultralisks than it is to zealots. You certainly can irradiate zealots. Artosis actually likes doing it and I've seen him do it on stream several times. But like...two irradiates kill an ultra (opponent loses 200 minerals and 200 gas for the cost of two spells). Whereas by comparison two irradiates kill two zealots (opponent loses 200 minerals). Irradiate on zealots just drains a lot less resources. "(and might be even be "helped" when irradiated vs fighting marines)." If you were using bio + science vessels against protoss, and irradiated a zealot, the zealot would be able to do the same thing vs marines (hug the marines for irradiate damage). I mean, usually bio games against protoss don't get to that level of tech, but if they did... "Especially versus marines, I'd say they're better than 4 zealots, because of their high armor" Hmm...that's a good question actually. Like...obviously the rock paper scissors design is that ultras have high armour to counter marines, but zealots also are just tuned much stronger than ultras, so I'm not sure which one does better vs marines. I think I need to go to a unit tester for this one... Okay...so in the unit tester 8 marines beat 1 ultra with about 2-3 marines left over (except sometimes one marine would bug out and not shoot, then the ultra would win with like 30-50 HP). 8 marines lose consistently to 4 zealots in the unit tester (if the marines don't bug out, 1-2 zealots will be alive at the end. If one of the marines bugs out and doesn't shoot, then three zealots are left alive). Not quite what I expected! I thought Ultras would do a bit better against the unit they're specifically supposed to counter, let's see if I can explain this gap. Due to armour, ultralisks have an effective 800 HP against marines, but zealots also have a little bit of armour giving them an effective 180 HP against marines, so four zealots have an effective 720 HP against marines. Still a bit less than 800. So they die a bit faster, but not a huge amount faster. The big difference for this specific matchup is all in the damage. Four zealots have about double the damage of one ultra, and stim marines have 30 HP, which lines up better with zealot's 16 damage (two shot) than ultra's 20 damage (also two shot). Because ultras get +2 from their attack upgrades, +3 attack ultras against +3 defence marines deal 23 damage instead of 20 (this is still two-shot). So mmm...maybe ultras would get closer to zealot performance against marines if I mixed in some medics (where the gap between 16 and 23 damage would matter). I can try that if you're interested. But...yeah, despite being the obvious rock paper scissors role for ultras (beating up marines) zealots might actually beat up marines more. "And really, since they zerg already have zerlings, it's not damage output that they needed, and so the ultralisk fills the zerg ranks quite well." I mean, sure, ultras do fill a role for zerg. But Tasteless has ultras above scourge and overlords and dragoons and shuttles and marines and corsairs and carriers and observers. All of those units fill roles for their races as well. If you told a zerg player they needed to pick between not building ultras, and not building scourge, that's an easy choice. They need scourge in all three matchups. They can live without ultras in all three matchups. I'd say that while ultras do fill a role, most of the units Tasteless has in B tier fill a bigger role for their race than Ultras fill for Zerg.
Feedback is the most underrated spell in the game. It comes researched and uses only 50 mana so making DA’s usable right off the back and only requires a few DA’s to rapid fire this spell. And it’s range is 10, where as EMP is only 8, so you can snipe every spell casters easily. Also they have high health and and speed and float over spider mines so they’re easy to keep alive. Also I really think Guardians and Devourers should be switched. Guardians are almost unusable they’re so slow, flimsy, low rate of fire, expensive, and tend to float into turret range. Devourers are faster, more durable, cheaper, and acid spores splash which quickly disables clustered air armies. Also you only need a few of them and a lot more guardians.
hot take: the probe is by far the stongest unit in the game. Why? because all of what was said in the video (already enough to get it to S!) *and* it mines faster than the other workers. Protoss literally has more money because of the probe.
for the devourer, they have armor shredding and attack speed reduction making them nitch use with mass muta. but how often are you massing muta vs a air based army and are willing to sacrifice the muta speed? if you can win that fight you could probably just win attacking flanks or the fight outright anyways.
Archons are basically free. Templars use storm and are useless for over a minute. Plus they do well against zerglings, defiler spells, and support defense and offense around mutas. They can turn the tide in PvP against zealots.
Archon is A because it is the counter to late game zerg....it is protoss only hope against crackling under dark swarm. I get your point though, its like C at best probably d for everything but late game PvZ but becomes S in late game PvZ
Arbitre B I think, having to have another micro-monster of a spell-caster is terrible when you already have unresponsive units. It can do something external/on the side maybe, but it often feels that its greatest benefit is 'forcing the Terran to not clump too heavily'. And even then they use goliaths with range & vessels to not allow arbitres to freeze the backs of Terran armies, you just freeze the forward ones which ends up making a wall of terrain essentially to block for the progressing army. I'd like statis if it like threw a projectile that did damage to the inner unit then spiked outwards and damaged very slightly the outer units. Get a bit of damage in there.
I'm 36. Big fan of Arto & you, you are both the face of OG Starcraft to me. Anyway Tasteless I have a question: I remember you used to play sf4 competitively with Blanka: do you still play some fg from time to time ?
Good tier list, but I feel like putting the valk and the scourge in the same tier is wrong. Valks are way too hard to micro and is quite situational compared to the scourge.
Devourers are mainly used in ZvZ to support mutalisks. Each acid spore makes muta's bounce atacks deal additional 1 damage. Other than that, they just look cool.
@@xeryues that reminds me of something iNcontroL said at the SC 20 year anniversary. Someone said "Scarabs are so stupid," after one killed like 8 lings, and then without missing a beat he just said, "yeah, imagine if they were smart." It's shaped my whole perception of BW. So many units that are just ridiculous but garbage to try and use so it's alright.
If you could click 12 HT and cast storm and only 1 cast that would be so broken. Same with corsair, that would make disruption web S tier. Protoss would be so broken if you could click multiple casters but only 1 spell cast
The only problem i see with this tierlist in general is that it needs an S+ tier. You can notice he has a lot of trouble with putting things in A or B, or A or S because the unit is on that realm but it's better than most of the tier; while some units are the best and have to go to the highest rank making the S tier either extremly exclusive or too wide for the gap some of the units have. With an S+ tier you can have those 4 insane untis there, have a good S tier, those units "too good for A or B" can be moved up (like the tank, vessel, arbiter and overlord) whithout feeling bad about it.
broodling - if u broodling a tank in a tank line, other sieged tanks shooting it might give u free bomb dmg on near by units/tanks ? wouldn't say its completely useless how can tank not be S, 2/3 terran matchup completely revolve around the power of this unit.
Tank is for sure S....TvT revolves around tanks, TvP revolves around how OP tanks are. Only matchup where they arent as OP is TvZ but overall tank is S
@@jimmydelcid8779 i noticed in this ASL a major shift away from traditional SK Terran.... traditional SK Terran uses just Bio and vessels. Now seeing valkeries and mech a lot
templar is 100% S imo, you either snipe it or your army melts. it being alive with energy gives threat that most armies have to respect. reavers command a similar respect but they are slower, movement is more clunky, and its threat is only increased with shuttles, something you already can do with templar. both have their moments but you are never upset with making templar
DTs are too niche to be A in my opinion. They don't really form the core of an army and they're more situational. Dropships require a control tower and they cost 100 gas a piece, worse than other transports.
I really want to agree but then I think of all the PvZ won solely from 1 dt killing all the drones at a base, the fact terran builds have to revolve around potential dt rush/drops and pvp pretty much revolves around dt when they choose next building after cyber core, robotics for obs into reaver or citadel for speedlots and DTs. While they don't in actuality do much, their threat drives a lot
Mutalisk is definitely not S, it's just too easily shut down in ZvP to be that high - I say it is solid A. HT is S, it is usefull and devastating in all match ups and building it is always a good idea, it's also great to storm mineral lines. Dragon is DEFINITELY S tier, it is backbone in every single Protoss matchup and usefull in every stage of the game.
Hard disagree, muta is the most microable unit in the game and absolutely devastating when used properly. Pros have made careers off good muta micro alone. Goons are unresponsive and just OK.
I think that a lot of the differing opinions here have to do with the level they're playing at. Certain things are a lot stronger at lower levels because of lack of micro, macro. At a higher level I think this list is pretty much accurate.
Say scouts are 25 minerals cheaper and inflict base ground damage 10 instead of 8, and every incremental aerial upgrade is 4 instead of 2, how would you rate it then ?
Shuttles are too good to be B, maybe A or S. It doesn't cost any gas, has the fastest speed of a transporting unit if upgraded, does not lose acceleration and has shields to recover. It's difficult to catch and stop drops compared to other transport units because of the speed upgrade.
Reason why they're lower is protoss drops are weaker. Terran drops are key to tvt and often key to late game tvz. Zerg drops are devastating in zvt and zvp, often instantly game winning. Protoss drops just don't have the same impact. No one builds more than a few shuttles, usually no more than 2
Tank, hydra, defiler, arbitrer, vulture, zealot (best unit in early game with diference, cheap and always usefull) those units for sure should be S tier from my perspective…
Now that i think about it i am pretty sure that the devourer might actually be the worst unit in the game when we exclude stuff like broodlings and infested terrans.
Scan an Artosis did this video as well, and I find the results of each of these videos a good case study for psychology. The main race played by the person making the list puts their own units in mid tier and the opposing races units higher than their own. I feel like this mentality spills over into other games like fighting character tier lists. A person tends to notice the flaws in their path over the advantages. To quote tasteless ["every unit in SC is busted"] and IMO every unit should be evaluated in two versions, one by itself and then one with its support unit(s). The best example is the marine and the medic. By itself, the marine, even with stim and range are pretty weak units. They have little hp which is the balance to their fast movement and high dps. But when paired with medics the combo becomes an entire strategy against 1/3 of the terran opponents and a pretty good one. Another example would be the Corsair. By itself, it cannot win the game, neither can zealots but the combo of corsair scouting and killing overlords and being a direct counter to mutas (look up why the corsair was designed) it allows protoss to hinder the zerg so much with supply blocks to allow the tanky zelots to get in and take out the zerg before their exponential army modelling kicks in and then late game can use disruption web to again hinder the zerg and allow protoss units to even the numbers. Another video should be done ranking the pairs. Also, IMO a few patches to SC need to be made. Mainly to the queen, Valkerye, and Scout. Both T and P have tier 2 spell casters (vessel and templar) yet the zerg do not since the queen is so expensive in cost and mana for its spells. I think the defiler spells could be slightly weakened where DS last a little less time and the plague only does 300 damage reduction thus allowing BC's to not be completely invalidated in exchange for queen ensare and broodling being cheaper mana. As for the Valkerye and Scout, no unit should be unviable in the game. Those units simply cost too many resources just to build and the scout needs upgrades to be viable. A little bit of viability should be taken from several T and P units and given to the Valk and Scout. Perhaps tanks do 5 damage less and medics have 5% less energy and then the Valkerye could cost less or something. And I know this suggestion is bringing SCII into SC I but the. Zerg creep should have some benefit to the zerg units. It already sucks that Zerg can to wall ins well or proxy strats but at least make the ground units faster while on the creep or something, or slow down energy units while they are on the creep. Attacking T or P mains are difficult to do any damage because everything is in the way, and there is a lot of building health. But when attacking Zerg, you can kill one building and make a massive impact and their isnt much getting in the way and it hurts the zerg economy since now ANOTHER drone must be used to replace the building. Great content Tasteless, long live Tastetosis!
"The main race played by the person making the list puts their own units in mid tier and the opposing races units higher than their own." You are best example for that, zerg player. :)
I dunno I agree with what Yuki said in the chat HT is only A list if you hit with psi storm... once you've used your 2 shots it's a sitting duck, you can get some devastating storm shots but a tank can hit over and over. I always found HT's farty and fiddly to use
The Devourer has one purpose and one purpose only. Mass Muta counter. Back in original Starcraft (not Brood War) Mutas basically won every game because there were no counters to them. So when Brood War came out they gave every race a unit specifically to counter Mutas. Terran got Valks, (and medics to heal stim) Protoss got Corsair, and Zerg got Devourer, they're meant to be used in conjunction with Mutas to ramp up their damage with Acid Spore, but they shoot so slow that it's actually better to save the muta and just use more mutas. Devourer is the worst unit in the game because they do not fill the one purpose they were added into the game for.
I would argue that you should tier units also based on the units it PREVENTS. I think Scourge deserve a higher rank (A rank) because they are such a strong deterrent to ever going Carriers or Corsair/DT.
![[Highlight] Why PvZ in Broodwar is WEIRD](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oM3Z7FjuixU/mqdefault.jpg)
I would love to see you and Artosis argue this. Perhaps you two can come to consensus.
This would be gold..
@@xSolBadguy Or would it be...Platinum?
@@Valhalla05 ok that was kinda good
I would love to see Tastosis arguing about literally anything. A blessed duo.
lol this is garbage this dude is so biased for protoss haha.
"vultures are free and have no build time" = true
They build and make it all the way across the map before a dragoon even pops out.
as a terran i agree with this statement
You get 3 mines for 25 each and a vulture for free
@@vverbov22 vultures aren't units. You are paying for the mines only. Vultures by themselves are suicidal recon that do less damage than marines. Almost like Vehicular banelings (with mines available).
@@virajkhatri7574 Two-shotting probes and doing 20(+2) damage to all shields and 19(+2) damage to zealot life is definitely not "less damage than marines". They also have a moving shot and the highest movespeed in the game which makes expanding against them a pain in the ass. Hardly a non-unit.
Starcraft 2 next? Love this
Yes!
Also woah youre here!? Thats so cool
just play BW
@@SCDJMU why?
@@driftsc2gaming779 because people that play bw hate sc2 lol
I just like both, and I’m trash at both ^^
Arbiter gets S for me because of not just its abilities, but also its passive cloak forcing your opponent to automatically need a detector in their micro
Terran players: *_LAUGHS IN COMSAT STATION_*
They're so good that they are never used in 2 of the 3 protoss matches.
The problem with Arbiters is that against Zerg, they get wrecked by Scourge, and against Protoss, generally doesn’t go Stargate because they can’t really hold off gateway robo during the transition.
@@jimmydelcid8779 Terran player gets rekt while laughing
The fact that it has an attack is so bad for it, and it's eye-wateringly expensive.
it'd prolly be very entertaining to get an artosis comparison/ reaction argument about this. I can only imagine
Artosis reaction to the high templar wouldve been hilarious xD
honestly this tier list was garbage. huge protoss bias. artosis has a much better list
he used different criteria for his and dropped units that are only used in 1 matchup.
Been playing SC since 1999. Always thought the Tank is the best unit in the game. Good list!
Loved the SF soundtrack in the background :)
What was the song at 20:00? I thought that was catchy.
@@AndrosynthNuclear ua-cam.com/video/7VtgvJmwW44/v-deo.html Remy’s theme
the probe being a "devastator" is fucking hilarious to me
Vessel is definately S tier. 3 god abilities and it flys also used in every matchup
Their biggest downfall is they're slow so scourge can kill them and plague totally wrecks them
@@Sc9cvsd slow? You must really suck at micro. lol
@@jimmydelcid8779I'm referring to pro play not my play..... corsair is a fast as scourge so they can run away. Vessel is slower than scourge so a vessel can't just run away, scourge will get it. Of course marines are usually around but a major part of pro play ZvT is sending scourge and trying to kill vessels
tbf, Plague wrecks pretty much everything except Archons.
Vessel is too good against Zerg, but not as good vs T & P. They could have made irradiate do dmg to tanks and stuff, but do more dmg to bio rather than only doing dmg to bio. EMP shockwave should have cost less mana maybe.
glad he eventually moved tanks up to S where they belong. they are a match controlling unit
I don't think they're nearly as good as Defilers or Zerglings - I'd put them at A+ or maybe S-
naw it should be A tier
@@AlexanderEddy not in tvz but in tvp and tvt tanks are devastating and very OP. Both matchups revolve around tanks
I disagree. No AA, require a Lot of Micro.... Tier A was Perfect.
imo they're easily S because they singlehandedly control how the whole game is played in both tvp and tvt. few other units have that much impact
Dude Tasteless approached this so rationally lolll. Impressive. So systematic and structured and clear. so different from what we saw with Artosis and Scan lul
I disagree about artosis. I think he had the most accurate list.
Scan's was the only one that deserves any serious criticism. I still don't know if he was trolling or just doesn't understand how a tier list works, but it has to be one of those two.
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
(seriously this was wildly inconsistent)
@@chewie481
The thing Tasteless gets wrong is his claim that he wasn't going to take into account the viability of a unit in multiple matchups.
That doesn't make any sense. If a unit is good in every matchup it's a clear point of evidence of the value of it.
Scan was totally trolling. Artosis was just his biased self
lol this is garbage this dude is so biased for protoss haha.
Constructing a pylon and especially supply depot has an opportunity cost because the worker used can't mine minerals for that time. In practice they therefore cost more than 100 minerals. Overlords in turn cost only larvae which generate for free over time, but each larva used on an overlord can't be used for a combat unit. Later in the game a single albeit expensive upgrade turns all your flying supply depots into drop ships. Did I mention that they are also detectors? Their detection was locked behind a mutation in SC2 for a reason.
I think you can argue that a larva has certainly more value than a probe's mining time loss to build a pylon (it's maybe 24 minerals).
Also that larva could have been a drone instead, so imho your logic would dictate that the opportunity cost of a overlord is the mining that lost drone could have done till the rest of the game.
@@chewie481 the larva used to build an overlord can't really be a drone because then where do you get your supply from?
@@impossibleexperiments You have to make overlords for supply, but overlords are also much more vulnerable than pylons or supply depots. You can't harass pylons with corsairs or wraiths. If they were this vulnerable and didn't do so much extra stuff zerg as a race would be bad.
I've seen Devourers used in lategame ZvZ when its a full blown air muta war to spread spores and do more damage, but its rare.
Yeah devourers are E+.... they're the only E unit that has a legit unique role but late game ZvZ is super rare. Also late game ZvZ the S++++ unit is defiler. One plague can take 50 muta to 1 health. Literally late have ZvZ is two players with tons of muta trying to dodge plague
Dropship is the worst of the 3 transports by far. costs the most, easiest to blow up. Slower than shuttle, while overlords are slower but expendable and have more functions.
Sure Shuttle is faster, but it has less health and the shields take full damage, so it's gonna die faster than a Dropship.
@@davidawesome4569
All static defense structures deal full damage to transports, so the shield point is moot. Also practically every anti-air attack in Brood War is ballistic or explosive, and the transports are large. Shields or not, it doesn’t really matter since everything will be doing full damage to them.
Also 10 HP isn’t that much of a difference, especially when shuttles are faster than dropships.
Dropships costing gas was a mistake.
Overlord definitely A. How much map control it brings is insane. It is like an observer but gives supply and detector at the start of the game. I think SCV should be atleast B. They don't regenerate and stuff yeah but they're hard to harass due to natural 60hp. They even tank stuff like dragoons and bug the hell out of ultras like they're meant to combat and not as a worker.
SCV has a lot to make up for in building while vulnerable. It can fail in ways other workers don't.
Bro they are actually a burden u need to protect them as they easily sniped u dont play z dont speak ....
Map control with overlord? Unless you enjoy having them all sniped by corsair or wraith deathballs and being supply blocked all game long, then no, they aren't good. Not even for map control.
A unit that doesn't attack cannot control the map.
@@abstractdaddy1384yeah, he should’ve said scouting instead of map control. But overlord scouting has a trade off of losing supply when they get sniped.
This was a long time coming video and is one of the most entertaining.
The guy who said "tank isn't on defiller/Vulture level" obviously never play SC1.
Tank can't shoot air tho, while Vulture/Defiler can ignore it.
guile theme at the end is so good!
great choice of music in the background.
Actually great tier list
Artosis's ranks
Terran units: BBBEEE
Protoss units: SSSSSS
Zerg units: AAASSS.
by the way, did you see afreecatv on FB had put a video about Tastosis's chicken joke. That's legit
That was such a rollercoaster ride. I was waiting for siege tank to go back to S.😂 Tank definitely does have counters, but it's the backbone of mech terran. The siege damage is ridiculous.
This is the content I require. YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL CONTENT.
Now compare your list with Artosis! ;D
That'd be hilarious
I always thought Tasteless was incredibly handsome. But when he picked up the kitty OMG 😍
A couple of devourers in a muta flock in ZvZ increases muta damage overall more so than the loss of two mutas.
Great list! My only suggestion is arbiter == vessel. In TvP, the player that uses their flying support better usually wins. I would give vessel slight edge because it is a game decider in TvZ
Yeah i think vessel > arbiter. Arbiter is only used tvp and its situational and not really that great. Vessel is used all three matchups
@@Sc9cvsd i would go so far to say arbs are bad ua-cam.com/video/OuvEiA84l0c/v-deo.html
@@Pav298 yeah Id say for every game an arbiter does something good and helps win the game there are 3 games where thr arbiter screws everything up and makes it worse. Like a game I watched last night. Stasis all the tanks were nice but that created a nice blockade/shield that didnt let the zealots get to the units behind and backfired
@@Pav298 great video hahaha...yeah problem is Arty isn't a korean pro. He put 8 tanks all in a clump by themselves waiting to be statised. When korean pros play I never see more than 3 tanks get statised because they spread them out once they see arbs
@@Sc9cvsd Artosis plays Starcraft like it's trench-warfare of world war 1. :D
I'm not subbed, and I don't play or watch StarCraft, but it seems like the UA-cam gods are blessing this video upon random peeps suggestions.
Tasteless I like you, your voice and your jokes so much man.
Greetings from Cologne, Germany
No one:
JayborinoPlays: “Yes, is there an E + infinity for the Reaver?”
putting shuttle under drop ship is absolutely insane
Actually a combined Tastosis tier list could be an epic vid
"you see them in all the matchups." oh. must be a superweapon, then.
Dude ghost lockdown is OP, if you have enough you can lock down literally every dragoon, tank, carrier... Its like stasis but you can still kill them!
Love the 3S music in the background
Honestly his is the list I find most accurate. Scans was atrocious and artosis was too black and white
It's interesting cause I feel like he rates on very similar criteria to Artosis, but comes to different conclusions, and it feels like most of this is because of artosis' terran bias vs his protoss bias. (I was highly amused when Tasteless had vultures rated higher than tanks; very protoss perspective there).
The obvious problems with this list strike me as...
* Hydra above Dragoon. They're the same kind of unit, but Dragoon is overall better. Splash damage is all ridiculously strong in brood war; tanks, reavers. Dragoons do well against splash because they have 180 HP. Hydras die to splash cause they have 80 HP. Like...sure, hydras are slightly cost effective in the hydra vs dragoon head to head matchup, because hydras are medium so they don't take full damage. But no, Dragoons are overall a better unit. (Hydras to B, probably. Dragoons to A. Some argument for Hydras below goliaths and marines, cause both of those can fend off mutas, hydras can't).
* Lurkers shouldn't be in S tier. It's the ranged splash damage option that zerg has, but it's miles worse than a reaver or a siege tank or a high templar. Like...bio is viable against lurkers, that should tell you how much less impactful lurkers are, cause bio is not viable against other types of splash like siege tanks or reavers. Probably B tier.
* Ultras shouldn't be in A tier. If I'm not mistaken, an equal cost group of zealots beats an ultralisk. Ultralisks cost 4x as much, so...four zealots? Yeah, that should beat an ultra if my calculations are right. No way are they the same tier as zealot. This is another situation like lurker where zerg just needs a unit to fill a role, and ultra fills the role, but it's not the ultra that's doing the heavy lifting in that composition (spoilers: it's the zergling).
* Scourge should move up from C tier. As far as pure air-to-air units go, scourge are at least on the level of corsairs, probably better. (And Corsair is in B).
* Arbiters above high templar feels a little weird to me. Like, I get it, arbiters are a bit game defining; the fact that stasis exists means Terran can't go battlecruisers, even if BCs would do fine against protoss in a world without stasis. But you could say pretty similar things about reavers making bio non-viable against protoss. Bottom line, I just don't think arbiters get built often enough to justify an S tier. S tier is like...your opponent knows you're going to make these units before the countdown is done, and there's nothing they can do. Arbiters...definitely don't get made every game (even PvT). Arbiter probably A tier.
* SCV probably should be higher than C tier. Workers are always hard to rate, but I tend to think of them in terms of "stuff they do outside of making buildings and gathering minerals." This can be manner pylons, blocking an expansion, being brought as part of a rush, repairing, cannon rushing, building turrets. For SCVs, making a contain with siege tanks and turrets is good. Proxy rax into bunker is good. Repair is good. They're the worst scout, sure but they still scout. Like...sure, drones are a better scout, but they can't make turrets next to siege tanks or repair. If you told a terran they had to pick between having their SCVs never leave their base, or not building wraiths or battlecruisers or valkyries--I think that's an easy answer. Easy SCV. Just...feels like a cut above the terran units in C.
---
On the flip side, stuff I like a lot about this list:
* Completely agree with Overlord in A tier (above shuttles and dropships). Yeah, overlords are really good. Half the cost of shuttles and dropships (arguably effectively free cause they provide supply). Also detectors.
* Completely agree with Corsairs in B tier. Artosis I seem to recall had Corsairs somewhere really low. Yeah, D-tier. Gotta side with Tasteless on this one. Tied for the fastest flying speed. Can moving shot. Tons of HP for the cost. Medium so they take 75% damage from nearly everything that hits air. (Mutas are light, which is hilariously OP, but corsairs being medium is still pretty powerful).
* Agree with rating marine up in B tier. Artosis kneejerked Marines low (in C tier below goliaths), and I think that's what my intuition would have done as well. But after Artosis' video I spent some time thinking about how to tier units, discussing it in youtube comments, trying to formalize a system, and man, it's such a big deal for a unit to cost only minerals, and to be available from the start of the tech tree. Marines might be miles worse than zerglings, vultures, and zealots, but they're still in that category. Playing without them would suck, and both protoss and zerg would do interesting things with them if they were moved to those tech trees. (Toss would stick marines behind zealots for early rushes. Zerg would have much earlier wall-busting rushes, and also have a mineral dump that can shoot mutas in zvz).
I think hydra > goon because of hydra bust. How many ZvP are won at 7 minutes by pure hydra? A lot. How many PvZ are won by dragon bust? None.
Lurker by itsself may not be S but because of dark swarm I think they're S. Lurkers are practically invulnerable vs terran under swarm. Tanks can't hit them. Just iradiate (too hard once they have mass lurker), yamato (not effective) and firebats (good luck with that)
I think Scourge are C because they dont actually kill very often. Corsairs run from them. Marines kill them before they get to vessels and muta micro is so good now they can kite scourge and kill scourge before scorge can land any hits. They're important, they drive away sairs early but they aren't great units
I agree with the rest though, especially arbiters.... no way they're S tier.
You seem really passionate about this game
@@Sc9cvsd "How many PvZ are won by dragon bust? None. "
I mean,, dragoons are used to bust out of lurker contains, but overall sure, in specifically PvZ, hydras are probably more impactful than dragoons
But what about when we look at all the other matchups?
Protoss vs Terran generally involves protoss spending most of their gas on dragoons. Zerg vs Terran rarely involves the zerg messing around with hydras.
Protoss vs Protoss usually becomes dragoon reaver against dragoon reaver. Nobody makes hydras in zerg vs zerg.
And the main reason the one specific matchup of PvZ has more hydras than dragoons is that hydras happen to be a rock-paper-scissors counter to dragoons (hydras are medium so they take 25% less damage from dragoon shots). If we removed the rock-paper-scissors mechanic, pretty sure mass dragoons would just beat mass hydras. 6 range vs 5 range, and otherwise comparable stats for the cost.
"Lurker by itsself may not be S but because of dark swarm I think they're S. Lurkers are practically invulnerable vs terran under swarm. Tanks can't hit them. Just iradiate (too hard once they have mass lurker), yamato (not effective) and firebats (good luck with that)"
I mean, my inclination is to give the credit there to defilers and not to lurkers. Imagine if instead of Lurkers zerg had an actually good unit under the dark swarm, like a reaver. That would be way, way harder to break.
Not to mention, with the rise in popularity of crazy zerg (where you go straight to hive after mutas and get ultralisks with carapace upgrades as the first hive tech) it's becoming more common to see TvZs with no lurkers built.
"I think Scourge are C because they dont actually kill very often. Corsairs run from them. Marines kill them before they get to vessels and muta micro is so good now they can kite scourge and kill scourge before scorge can land any hits. They're important, they drive away sairs early but they aren't great units"
I think you may be underestimating just how inexpensive scourge are. Five scourge cost about the same as one corsair. Seven scourge cost about the same as one SV. Two scourge cost the same as one observer (and one-shot the observer).
They get built in every matchup because even if half of them don't connect, they're still cost-effective.
You also have to think about the strategies that are shut out by scourge. Like...you never see protoss trying to use arbiters to recall against zerg. Recall theoretically could be great against zerg--but scourge just make it so risky.
And also...just look at the other units in C tier. Do you really think scourge are on the same tier as Wraiths and Valkyries?
I just don't see a strong argument for scourge being C tier. Artosis had them in A tier, although I'm not entirely locked in on A tier either. Maybe there's an argument for B tier?
I will say, though, just comparing to a previously mentioned unit, that zerg would probably be more crippled if they were told that they couldn't build scourge than if they were told they couldn't build lurkers. ZvZ and ZvT would suffer more from the lack of scourge than lurkers (lurkers not mattering in ZvZ, and zerg having an easier time finding a replacement for lurkers in ultras than finding a replacement for scourge ZvT). ZvP...not sure.
Very nice reasoning and breakdown Kaitlyn! I agree with basically all your points, except the Ultralisk one.
First, I have to point out that their combat ability vs zealots in equal cost matters too little. If that would be an important comparison in general, the whole tier list would look drastically different. Also, minerals and gas I'd say are not interchangeable. Oh, and more important, an ultra takes the supply of only 2 zealots. By that metric, an ultralisk mops the floor with 2 zealots.
Second, zerglings do the heavy lifting, but they have plenty of counters. That ultralisk can ignore/power trough most of them. And would do so better than 2 to 4 zealots would. For example, splash damage. 4 zealots won't be better vs spider mines, reaver scarabs, psionic storms or versus archons, even though they're more and they're medium. And archons in particular are devastating vs zerlings. Ultralisks are also much more resilient vs irradiate. Especially versus marines, I'd say they're better than 4 zealots, because of their high armor (and might be even be "helped" when irradiated vs fighting marines).
Their damage is not as devastating as the zerlings' is but their tanking is exceptional. And really, since they zerg already have zerlings, it's not damage output that they needed, and so the ultralisk fills the zerg ranks quite well.
The only good argument for them being tier B is that they are expensive. But if you do have the money, they're so devastating, they usually just win the game. For that reason I'd say they qualify for tier A.
@@Winnetou17 Interesting thoughts on ultras, but doing some more number crunching and testing I'm...still really not sold for ultras being placed so high.
"Also, minerals and gas I'd say are not interchangeable."
True, but typically gas is more important (certainly more important for zerg) so in some ways that makes ultras more than 4x as expensive as a zealot. I'm guessing most zergs would consider it a big buff if Ultras were changed to cost 400 minerals instead of 200/200.
"Oh, and more important, an ultra takes the supply of only 2 zealots. By that metric, an ultralisk mops the floor with 2 zealots."
At least based on pro brood war games I've watched I just don't think supply matters for zerg units; zergs never even get close to maxing out, especially when going ultra ling. If a zerg is at 130 supply, it's like "wow, so much supply".
Supply is an important factor in some other matchups for sure. Supply is fairly important in TvT for example. But zergs are just not really looking for maximum value for supply (if BW zergs were worried about that kind of thing they'd make more guardians and devourers--2 supply units that cost about as much as an ultra!)
(Though sure, if you put ultras in a scenario where supply mattered, one ultra has the combat effectiveness of roughly 3 zealots, so they'd be a bit more supply efficient).
"For example, splash damage. 4 zealots won't be better vs spider mines, reaver scarabs, psionic storms or versus archons, even though they're more and they're medium."
Sure, in general higher HP units do better against splash damage, that's part of what makes dragoons a better unit than hydras. I feel like there's a few footnotes on splash damage though.
* Zealots do better against probably the best splash unit--siege tanks just due to damage typing. It takes like 6 siege tank shots to kill an ultra, and 4 siege tank shots to kill a zealot, but zealots are so much cheaper, so if they spread even a little bit they'll do better than ultras.
* Spider mines are weird. Like...sure, if you get a clump of zealots hit by a spider mine that's worse than getting a clump of ultras hit by a spider mine. But I'd also much rather do mine drag mines onto the terran army using zealots than ultras. The unit that does the mine drag is going to die, so you'd rather it be a cheap unit (while still being tanky enough to stay alive for the mine drag).
But also just in general, for tanky melee units, splash isn't always the way to counter them. Like...I generally wouldn't want to use storm against someone using zealots. In a fight it's hard to hit only the zealots and no friendly units, and even if you do perfectly position storm it takes more than one storm to kill a zealot.
"Ultralisks are also much more resilient vs irradiate."
I mean, I think irradiate is a better counter to ultralisks than it is to zealots.
You certainly can irradiate zealots. Artosis actually likes doing it and I've seen him do it on stream several times. But like...two irradiates kill an ultra (opponent loses 200 minerals and 200 gas for the cost of two spells). Whereas by comparison two irradiates kill two zealots (opponent loses 200 minerals). Irradiate on zealots just drains a lot less resources.
"(and might be even be "helped" when irradiated vs fighting marines)."
If you were using bio + science vessels against protoss, and irradiated a zealot, the zealot would be able to do the same thing vs marines (hug the marines for irradiate damage).
I mean, usually bio games against protoss don't get to that level of tech, but if they did...
"Especially versus marines, I'd say they're better than 4 zealots, because of their high armor"
Hmm...that's a good question actually.
Like...obviously the rock paper scissors design is that ultras have high armour to counter marines, but zealots also are just tuned much stronger than ultras, so I'm not sure which one does better vs marines.
I think I need to go to a unit tester for this one...
Okay...so in the unit tester 8 marines beat 1 ultra with about 2-3 marines left over (except sometimes one marine would bug out and not shoot, then the ultra would win with like 30-50 HP). 8 marines lose consistently to 4 zealots in the unit tester (if the marines don't bug out, 1-2 zealots will be alive at the end. If one of the marines bugs out and doesn't shoot, then three zealots are left alive).
Not quite what I expected! I thought Ultras would do a bit better against the unit they're specifically supposed to counter, let's see if I can explain this gap.
Due to armour, ultralisks have an effective 800 HP against marines, but zealots also have a little bit of armour giving them an effective 180 HP against marines, so four zealots have an effective 720 HP against marines. Still a bit less than 800. So they die a bit faster, but not a huge amount faster. The big difference for this specific matchup is all in the damage. Four zealots have about double the damage of one ultra, and stim marines have 30 HP, which lines up better with zealot's 16 damage (two shot) than ultra's 20 damage (also two shot). Because ultras get +2 from their attack upgrades, +3 attack ultras against +3 defence marines deal 23 damage instead of 20 (this is still two-shot).
So mmm...maybe ultras would get closer to zealot performance against marines if I mixed in some medics (where the gap between 16 and 23 damage would matter). I can try that if you're interested.
But...yeah, despite being the obvious rock paper scissors role for ultras (beating up marines) zealots might actually beat up marines more.
"And really, since they zerg already have zerlings, it's not damage output that they needed, and so the ultralisk fills the zerg ranks quite well."
I mean, sure, ultras do fill a role for zerg. But Tasteless has ultras above scourge and overlords and dragoons and shuttles and marines and corsairs and carriers and observers. All of those units fill roles for their races as well.
If you told a zerg player they needed to pick between not building ultras, and not building scourge, that's an easy choice. They need scourge in all three matchups. They can live without ultras in all three matchups.
I'd say that while ultras do fill a role, most of the units Tasteless has in B tier fill a bigger role for their race than Ultras fill for Zerg.
Don't know why but this clasification gives terran player vives
Feedback is the most underrated spell in the game. It comes researched and uses only 50 mana so making DA’s usable right off the back and only requires a few DA’s to rapid fire this spell. And it’s range is 10, where as EMP is only 8, so you can snipe every spell casters easily. Also they have high health and and speed and float over spider mines so they’re easy to keep alive.
Also I really think Guardians and Devourers should be switched. Guardians are almost unusable they’re so slow, flimsy, low rate of fire, expensive, and tend to float into turret range. Devourers are faster, more durable, cheaper, and acid spores splash which quickly disables clustered air armies. Also you only need a few of them and a lot more guardians.
Jazzy NYC, nice 3s music in the latest vids Tasteless
hot take: the probe is by far the stongest unit in the game.
Why? because all of what was said in the video (already enough to get it to S!) *and* it mines faster than the other workers. Protoss literally has more money because of the probe.
Anyone who doesn't think probe is not an S class unit have not had one in their base at the very start of the game.
That version of Tasteless hasn't seen Mini's scouts yet.
I'm such a sucker for whenever you guys reference fighting games. I feel so appeased.
Thank you. I love these.
The Defiler is the only reason why ZvT is a somewhat playable matchup.
I love this!
What is the chrono item on the shelf behind tasteless?
how is dropship higher than shuttle?
for the devourer, they have armor shredding and attack speed reduction making them nitch use with mass muta. but how often are you massing muta vs a air based army and are willing to sacrifice the muta speed? if you can win that fight you could probably just win attacking flanks or the fight outright anyways.
Seems strange to put Archon A tier when it's pretty bad against goons, hydra and anything terran.
And it costs so much
Archon is at most b
Archons are basically free. Templars use storm and are useless for over a minute. Plus they do well against zerglings, defiler spells, and support defense and offense around mutas. They can turn the tide in PvP against zealots.
Archon is A because it is the counter to late game zerg....it is protoss only hope against crackling under dark swarm. I get your point though, its like C at best probably d for everything but late game PvZ but becomes S in late game PvZ
Dark Archon >>>>>>>>> Archon
Arbitre B I think, having to have another micro-monster of a spell-caster is terrible when you already have unresponsive units.
It can do something external/on the side maybe, but it often feels that its greatest benefit is 'forcing the Terran to not clump too heavily'. And even then they use goliaths with range & vessels to not allow arbitres to freeze the backs of Terran armies, you just freeze the forward ones which ends up making a wall of terrain essentially to block for the progressing army.
I'd like statis if it like threw a projectile that did damage to the inner unit then spiked outwards and damaged very slightly the outer units. Get a bit of damage in there.
I'm 36. Big fan of Arto & you, you are both the face of OG Starcraft to me. Anyway Tasteless I have a question: I remember you used to play sf4 competitively with Blanka: do you still play some fg from time to time ?
Good tier list, but I feel like putting the valk and the scourge in the same tier is wrong. Valks are way too hard to micro and is quite situational compared to the scourge.
"Broodling is not that good in Starcraft 2." As it absorbs 80% of my army's damage.
good list, reasonable. Although arbiter is def not S. It's A
thanks!
Hey Crota!
@@R5123 I'm not Crota
The observer needs to be able to psi storm to counter the imba of the sci vessel
Devourers are built to counter mutalisks in late game zvz and to counter corsair carrier in late game pvz, neither of which come up much.
I thought devourers counter capitol ships, like Battlecruisers, Guardians and Carriers?
back in the day when Hydralisk is such a good unit
now they are just to morph into lurker
yeah that’s sad
Great video!
I think Ultra should have been brought down to high B but the list was great.
I think devourers are mostly used in late game ZvZ. devourers and mutas are very powerful in combination against clumped mutas.
Liked without watching
Devourers are mainly used in ZvZ to support mutalisks. Each acid spore makes muta's bounce atacks deal additional 1 damage. Other than that, they just look cool.
LOVE BROOD WAR CONTENT
This tier list looks way more normal than the one Scan made. He put basically all units that were better than E tier into S and A for some odd reason.
DT is B too
I wonder how this list would change if all these units had SC2 levels of responsiveness and microability
if that was the case Protoss would be unbeatable :D
@@xeryues that reminds me of something iNcontroL said at the SC 20 year anniversary. Someone said "Scarabs are so stupid," after one killed like 8 lings, and then without missing a beat he just said, "yeah, imagine if they were smart." It's shaped my whole perception of BW. So many units that are just ridiculous but garbage to try and use so it's alright.
If you could click 12 HT and cast storm and only 1 cast that would be so broken. Same with corsair, that would make disruption web S tier. Protoss would be so broken if you could click multiple casters but only 1 spell cast
High Templar is B?
Troll Tier: A
can we have a tier list of sc1/2 casters? Active or inactive anything works :D
The only problem i see with this tierlist in general is that it needs an S+ tier. You can notice he has a lot of trouble with putting things in A or B, or A or S because the unit is on that realm but it's better than most of the tier; while some units are the best and have to go to the highest rank making the S tier either extremly exclusive or too wide for the gap some of the units have.
With an S+ tier you can have those 4 insane untis there, have a good S tier, those units "too good for A or B" can be moved up (like the tank, vessel, arbiter and overlord) whithout feeling bad about it.
20:43 My eyes man. 4/5 of the video was like that XD
Writing this before warching… reaver should be S tier!!!
broodling - if u broodling a tank in a tank line, other sieged tanks shooting it might give u free bomb dmg on near by units/tanks ? wouldn't say its completely useless
how can tank not be S, 2/3 terran matchup completely revolve around the power of this unit.
Tank is for sure S....TvT revolves around tanks, TvP revolves around how OP tanks are. Only matchup where they arent as OP is TvZ but overall tank is S
@@Sc9cvsd Tanks are still S tier, even in TvZ games. You just don't see them because of Dark Swarm and Broodling.
@@jimmydelcid8779 i noticed in this ASL a major shift away from traditional SK Terran.... traditional SK Terran uses just Bio and vessels. Now seeing valkeries and mech a lot
ily tasteless
templar is 100% S imo, you either snipe it or your army melts. it being alive with energy gives threat that most armies have to respect. reavers command a similar respect but they are slower, movement is more clunky, and its threat is only increased with shuttles, something you already can do with templar. both have their moments but you are never upset with making templar
DTs are too niche to be A in my opinion. They don't really form the core of an army and they're more situational.
Dropships require a control tower and they cost 100 gas a piece, worse than other transports.
I really want to agree but then I think of all the PvZ won solely from 1 dt killing all the drones at a base, the fact terran builds have to revolve around potential dt rush/drops and pvp pretty much revolves around dt when they choose next building after cyber core, robotics for obs into reaver or citadel for speedlots and DTs. While they don't in actuality do much, their threat drives a lot
I may be biased but Larvae is maybe my favourite unit.
Mutalisk is definitely not S, it's just too easily shut down in ZvP to be that high - I say it is solid A. HT is S, it is usefull and devastating in all match ups and building it is always a good idea, it's also great to storm mineral lines. Dragon is DEFINITELY S tier, it is backbone in every single Protoss matchup and usefull in every stage of the game.
Hard disagree, muta is the most microable unit in the game and absolutely devastating when used properly. Pros have made careers off good muta micro alone. Goons are unresponsive and just OK.
ahahahha I lost it at the Vessel bit. Rofl
I think that a lot of the differing opinions here have to do with the level they're playing at. Certain things are a lot stronger at lower levels because of lack of micro, macro. At a higher level I think this list is pretty much accurate.
Say scouts are 25 minerals cheaper and inflict base ground damage 10 instead of 8, and every incremental aerial upgrade is 4 instead of 2, how would you rate it then ?
Shuttles are too good to be B, maybe A or S. It doesn't cost any gas, has the fastest speed of a transporting unit if upgraded, does not lose acceleration and has shields to recover.
It's difficult to catch and stop drops compared to other transport units because of the speed upgrade.
Reason why they're lower is protoss drops are weaker. Terran drops are key to tvt and often key to late game tvz. Zerg drops are devastating in zvt and zvp, often instantly game winning. Protoss drops just don't have the same impact. No one builds more than a few shuttles, usually no more than 2
Templar is A tier for sure
Tank, hydra, defiler, arbitrer, vulture, zealot (best unit in early game with diference, cheap and always usefull) those units for sure should be S tier from my perspective…
Now that i think about it i am pretty sure that the devourer might actually be the worst unit in the game when we exclude stuff like broodlings and infested terrans.
In team games, Devourers and Corsair basically kills all air units in no time. And can neuter ground while doing it. So it's situational, but awesome.
There should be another clasification like S+ and only they defiler will be there
I feel that Reavers should be subdivided depending on whether Much is controlling it. @TastelessTV
Overlords are the most awkward "drop ships" to use though. I think shuttles are better. There is a reason we don't see a lot of zerg drops
1:40 broodlings provide vision
Scan an Artosis did this video as well, and I find the results of each of these videos a good case study for psychology. The main race played by the person making the list puts their own units in mid tier and the opposing races units higher than their own. I feel like this mentality spills over into other games like fighting character tier lists. A person tends to notice the flaws in their path over the advantages.
To quote tasteless ["every unit in SC is busted"] and IMO every unit should be evaluated in two versions, one by itself and then one with its support unit(s).
The best example is the marine and the medic. By itself, the marine, even with stim and range are pretty weak units. They have little hp which is the balance to their fast movement and high dps. But when paired with medics the combo becomes an entire strategy against 1/3 of the terran opponents and a pretty good one. Another example would be the Corsair. By itself, it cannot win the game, neither can zealots but the combo of corsair scouting and killing overlords and being a direct counter to mutas (look up why the corsair was designed) it allows protoss to hinder the zerg so much with supply blocks to allow the tanky zelots to get in and take out the zerg before their exponential army modelling kicks in and then late game can use disruption web to again hinder the zerg and allow protoss units to even the numbers.
Another video should be done ranking the pairs.
Also, IMO a few patches to SC need to be made. Mainly to the queen, Valkerye, and Scout. Both T and P have tier 2 spell casters (vessel and templar) yet the zerg do not since the queen is so expensive in cost and mana for its spells. I think the defiler spells could be slightly weakened where DS last a little less time and the plague only does 300 damage reduction thus allowing BC's to not be completely invalidated in exchange for queen ensare and broodling being cheaper mana. As for the Valkerye and Scout, no unit should be unviable in the game. Those units simply cost too many resources just to build and the scout needs upgrades to be viable. A little bit of viability should be taken from several T and P units and given to the Valk and Scout. Perhaps tanks do 5 damage less and medics have 5% less energy and then the Valkerye could cost less or something.
And I know this suggestion is bringing SCII into SC I but the. Zerg creep should have some benefit to the zerg units. It already sucks that Zerg can to wall ins well or proxy strats but at least make the ground units faster while on the creep or something, or slow down energy units while they are on the creep. Attacking T or P mains are difficult to do any damage because everything is in the way, and there is a lot of building health. But when attacking Zerg, you can kill one building and make a massive impact and their isnt much getting in the way and it hurts the zerg economy since now ANOTHER drone must be used to replace the building.
Great content Tasteless, long live Tastetosis!
"The main race played by the person making the list puts their own units in mid tier and the opposing races units higher than their own." You are best example for that, zerg player. :)
I don't think there is anyway to make valkeries more viable without breaking tvz.
lol high templar is an A list for sure lol wtf,,,,snow,scan, arty all ranked high templar as an A storm is about cheapest ability in the game lol.
I dunno I agree with what Yuki said in the chat HT is only A list if you hit with psi storm... once you've used your 2 shots it's a sitting duck, you can get some devastating storm shots but a tank can hit over and over. I always found HT's farty and fiddly to use
They are slow as fuck low hp. Siege tanks just melt them before they can even get a storm off most the time.
Storm is great but pros are good at dodging storm and HT are too easy to snipe. I agree with B for HT. Maybe B+
The Devourer has one purpose and one purpose only. Mass Muta counter. Back in original Starcraft (not Brood War) Mutas basically won every game because there were no counters to them. So when Brood War came out they gave every race a unit specifically to counter Mutas. Terran got Valks, (and medics to heal stim) Protoss got Corsair, and Zerg got Devourer, they're meant to be used in conjunction with Mutas to ramp up their damage with Acid Spore, but they shoot so slow that it's actually better to save the muta and just use more mutas. Devourer is the worst unit in the game because they do not fill the one purpose they were added into the game for.
Can you rank their spawn audio
Just stopped bye to say that poor e tier scout won mini a ASL.
Reaver a "set and forget"? wtf
Funny how vulture used to be considered pretty shit back in the early days
Lurker is S because they are nearly invulnerable under dark swarm
So all protoss units A or S tier, except scout. But protoss isn't imba or a low skill race, right?
I would argue that you should tier units also based on the units it PREVENTS. I think Scourge deserve a higher rank (A rank) because they are such a strong deterrent to ever going Carriers or Corsair/DT.
How is the reaver better tham the arbiter, carrier or HT
Is this some Unreal background music?
No way is templar not S