@@Boots43096 from what I understand, prepping for SC2 episodes took way more time and it wasn't garnering enough viewership than other stuff that took less time, but has twice the viewership results. But it doesn't explain why he's doesn't play or even co-host major tournaments anymore.
I honestly miss dearly Day[9] daily... I know it's a lot of commitment... But a Day[9] weekly, or heck, even a monthly I would LOVE. Whether Funday Monday, Noobie Tuesday or just an analysis of a pro-game. Sean if you read this... Consider doing it once a blue moon. I miss that kind of content especially for SC/SC2.
10:58 small sidenote here, they also have to use their _larva_ to make these Overlords, meaning those Larva cannot be actual combat units now either, meaning the Zerg also loses a bit of ground army size in order to replenish Overlords, not just money.
I love even though it's been more than 20 years of existing, Day[9] still explains the game in a way anyone could understand even if they never knew what Starcraft was. True mentoring power.
Starcraft is basically "I'm gonna counter your counter with my counter unless you counter my counter with another counter in which i'll counter that with my unintuitive counter until you counter that. Then i'm going to reddit Protoss OP"
You described it well. And the same thing in SC2 is Phoenix/Zealot. I don't know Brood War that well, but in SC2 stargate opening is quite useful harrassment against macro zerg. With the lift ability, phoenix surely has more universal value than corsair, though generally not enough to stop a zerg all-in. But hey, you can still blame that zerg anti-air ground unit is too weak (then they buffed queen).
I think Starcraft more than any other game has the angle "you counter my unit? Well I built a hundred and I can rebuild them faster than you can kill them until you have 20 counter units out. Much different than age of empires which is about I harass your economy while you harass my economy and hope I can micro my workers better until I can actually build things that can properly damage you ability to rebuild things..
@@coincidence4054 Corsairs are way more efficient than phoenix because they have an AoE attack and they kill overlords a lot faster. Also SC:Brood War didn't have queens, or unlimited mutalisk selection or a bunch of other stuff. And their ability to attack or effect ground units was completely irrelevant.
small videos on the history of Starcraft strategy would be awesome!!! it would bring back some of the Starcraft magic you gave us before. Super interesting to hear this and I would love some more if you have anything else to talk about.
I wish more of this history would be brought up by casters. I feel like a lot of this counter-anticounter play is present in SC2, but the reasons why aren't always apparent to a new viewer.
So happy to have Day9 back talking some SC:Broodwar, this just brings me back to Funday Mondays, newbie Tuesdays, and commentary on some of the most epic games to ever grace a computer screen. This Sean has been missed!!! Welcome back
I saw this in my recommended, and I knew that it was on a topic that I don't particularly care about, and almost certainly won't have any relevance to me for the rest of my life. I also knew that Sean was going to describe it in such a fascinating way that none of that would matter!
I wish he would just play random games. He has so much to offer in term of generic game theory analysis. He understands game design, and it's interesting to watch him comment on it while playing a variety of games. It should always be Day9's day off.
Honestly, every non mirror matchup in broodwar is amazing. They all have such rich history and cool interactions. Since remastered TvZ has had so many wacky innovations with mech that were only dabbled in, in the times of OG brooodwar.
Even mirror matchups are great. TvT is a beautiful siege tank line vs siege tank line. PvP is full of intense micro battles. ZvZ is a tense matchup where even the slightest loss can mean total defeat.
@@VioletteZero i believe back in the prime tvt is always mass army with tank + goliath but they rarely fight. Instead the win or lose depend on how drop harass, controling base. Covert action do the thing. Pretty accurate to real world
Man, Your videos and Husky Starcraft was literally everything I watched in Highschool. Although I miss your starcraft 2 Content, and Funday Mondays i understand u have a life outside of UA-cam. Keep doing you!
Thanks, Sean! It honest to god brings a tear to my eye to have more Broodwar content. You've done so much for the community around this game. We appreciate you!
2007.03.03. 2007 GOMTV MSL Final Savior vs Bisu Game 1: ua-cam.com/video/oiIATP1hxCQ/v-deo.html Game 2: ua-cam.com/video/hdBW9g6dhO4/v-deo.html Game 3: ua-cam.com/video/bx9Oe3yrL_w/v-deo.html 2007.11.30. 2007 EVER OSL Quarterfinal Bisu vs Savior Game 2: ua-cam.com/video/1630pqMhVjo/v-deo.html
Bisu was a no-name and Savior was the best Starcraft player at this period. Savior had a PvZ win ratio of over 90% and had never lost a bottom of 5 series in his entire career, never even went to game 5. This no-name player came up with this unique macro strategy completely out of the blue and destroyed Savior that day, forever revolutionizing the PvZ game. This new trend in the PvZ game lead to Savior's downfall, and Bisu went on to become the greatest Protoss player of all time. This was one of the most shocking events in SC history, and people called it the "March 3rd Revolution". Even to this day, whenever it's March 3rd every year, Korean fans gather up in SC communities to celebrate this remarkable event. Thanks to Bisu and this macro, for the first and only time, Protoss players gained an advantage over the Zerg and had a renaissance period in 2007. But at 2008 an aspiring Zerg player named Jaedong came up with a counter to Bisu's macro, and once again the Zerg regained their advantage over the Protoss. Because of that, Bisu fell into a slump in 2008 and had to change his PvZ game to get back up again.
Woke up 30 mins ago. Thought I was hallucinating from a high fever when I saw this video. Had to look at the time posted multiple times just to be sure.
Sc2 player here. This reminds me a lot of how strategies that are terrible at higher levels, that nobody who's good at the game considers, end up working. Sometimes you stick a novice up against an experienced player and they win because their timing is so awful it works. Once. Only once, but it works. Your friend saying they were being dumb might have been right.
Honestly, this kind of counter intuitive logic is fascinating. In real war, you can achieve a lot by gutting someone's logistics. So it's a very weird setup that almost feels like authentic guerilla war
OMG, can we have Sean talking about Starcraft again?! That would be the greatest thing ever right now. He is great with MTGA but its just not my cup of tea.
Day9’s Starcraft vids and breakdowns years ago were the reason why my ranked jumped from silver to plat/diamond. God I missed these vids. Nice to see one again
Haven’t been recommended a Day9 video in ages, but oh my, did it bring a smile to my face. The comparisons to other games & format of the explanation was as easy to understand as ever. Love this man.
Haven't visited the channel for a while but every time I see Shawn talk about SC, I'm so down for it.. Even though I never played anything else than the campaign
I love this kind of stuff in games. I know it's counter intuitive for beginners, but it feels so rewarding to have lateral options to solve the game rather than just obvious strategy. In Magic, things like virtual card advantage are really similar and it's what makes the game interesting in my opinion.
It's really sad to me how uncommon this particular variety of rock-paper-scissors is in modern esports. In fighting games, it's common to knock your opponent down, walk up, and then just block. In Pokemon, it's common to use fire moves against water dudes predicting them to switch to a grass dude. It's unintuitive, but it makes metagames so much more vibrant and dynamic.
people still do that in sc2. thing is, zerg players developed better counters to mass air units. meanwhile protoss have better strategies, and units they can use. even if, they do have powerfull air to air units that are usefull against ground units en masse.
@@nizdeniz not outright, but he did mention "modern esports", which does include sc2. also you make it sound like sc2 is a forbidden word that shall not be spoken or something...
Not really, it is intuitive ones you really feel the game. Its more dynamic because its an RTS which means it has a lot more elements to it than games of other genres.
I think I needed this. It's nice to hear you talking about StarCraft again, even just for a bit. With every game you cover, your enthusiasm always shines through and it's a big part of why I love watching you; but there will always be something unique about hearing you talk SC. The passion and the understanding, the way you explain everything so elegantly and in a way that anyone could understand even if they were new to the game... it reminds me how you made me fall in love with SC back in the day and honestly getting into those streams had a big positive influence on my life and my general outlook/mindset. I'll always support you and your channel regardless of what you cover, because you're a joy to watch play and talk about almost regardless of the game in question. But know that if you ever feel like chatting some StarCraft again, however casually or briefly, I'm always here for it. But, of course, no pressure! Much love, Sean!
1. One of the absolutely great things about the Zealot push is that it takes no gas. Your corsair army absolutely needs 2 gas to function so having a decent ground army that takes no gas is so powerful. 2. Zerg developed the hydra bust to exploit the lack of ground/ranged ground forces when the toss does the fast starport opening, many toss die to this at upper skill levels.
Coming from Go, when people ask about dealing with situations that they shouldn't have gotten into, i find myself reminded of the advice that when you can't find a good move, you probably did something wrong a while ago and should try to figure out what and when that was instead.
Im going to join the army pleading for some form of funday Monday to come back. I legit miss those hilarious vids/ games. Nukes and seus will always be remembered.
I decided to give a go at the broodwar ladder about 2 years. I started with zerg, I lost my first 5 games to corsairs killing overlords with NOTHING i could do about it. Came back again, lost 5 more to the same thing, and I decided brood war was not for me.
you forgot to mention that after corsair rush bisu did he followed with dark templars, and later this protoss build, known as "bisu build" would be countered by jaedong by simply doing scourge and anti air defense to counter both corsair and templars. even though these builds is still used today during mid game comes to a point where turns into a stalemate
Man, as someone who's never played Broodwar (or League or Dota, for that matter), this was an amazingly well done explanation that was very easy to follow.
14:21 No corsairs also means no stable defence versus mutalisk switch. If you ever played SC original (no Broodwar exp), you'll know how much Protoss struggled agaisnt Zerg Air.
The way you explain the amorphousness of Broodwar reminds me of magic. I know nothing of those other games you mention, but when you started talking about knowing what your opponent "should" be able to do based on their race, this really reminds me of playing magic and knowing what my opponent should be able to do based on their color. For example, if someone said "but what if my blue opponent kills me on turn 4 with her strong creatures?" then I would similarly say something like "well something doesn't sound right here." I'm feeling a lot of parallels.
I can't really think of an analog for the "weird" matchup though. I guess you could compare it to weird sideboard strategies in mtg. Like when non-blue decks started sideboarding Negates in Alara-Zendikar standard because Spreading Seas got popular as a way to fight the slightly janky 3 color mana-bases of the time
I must admit, I used to watch you a lot, but just had other things I watched more recently... This one had me both laughing and thinking at the same time, very well done :-D
This meta talk is awesome. Can you cover more of it throughout Starcraft and Magic history? Odd meta shifts from patches/new card sets, as well as the even weirder solutions to them?
02:30 To anyone who is interested: Yes and no. In early Season 1, when LoL was young, the developers didn't really force any structural metagame. After all, it was more or less a copy of Dota. But by the time the Season 1 World Championship rolled around, European teams have figured out how to best distribute champions throughout the map. The jungle was such, that only a select few characters could actually clear it efficiently, so at that point it wasn't actually set in stone that someone would jungle from the start of the gane to the end. European teams figured out that having a designated jungler means more effectice distribution of ressources on the map (top lane gets all the gold and experience in his lane and jungle from bis jungle, instead of them sharing it). That meant they revolved the pick for the role around whether they could clear the jungle safely on their own and contribute to the game after that Next up, Europeans figured out that mid-lane is the shortest lane and while it had the most paths from which an enemy could ambush the lane, you also had the least distance to cover in case you did get ganked. So Europeans put strong champs with low mobility there, which were usually mages. Mages scaled most with experience, so they had to be alone on the map to capitalize from experience gain. Lastly you had two more people but only one lane left. Before the championship, people usually put two champions down there with a lot of kill potential, but Europeans thought that funnelling all ressources into the lane on a ranged character with high potential dps is the smarter choice. The other character would be a support, either someone that provides additional power/safety to the lane partner through their abilities, or a champion that doesn't need much gold to be effectice. That character was relegated to buy wards all game, basically. Riot eventually rolled with that structure and balanced the game and later the map accordingly. Until, I believe, around Season 3. Professional teams were getting so good at tracking enemy junglers and not straight-up losing lane, that nothing would happen for long stretches of the early game. Proactive teams who had mechanically skilled players didn't like that and came up with lane-swapping. They would put their top-laner in the bottom lane and the two bot-laners top. The idea was to get a top (now bot) laner, who can hold off the enemy duo long enough, until his teams' botlane (now top) took the enemy tower and returned bot before their own tower died. The metagame revolved around this a lot until riot enforced patches that would stop this, because the top laners would end up rather farming the jungle with their jungler than defending the tower against two people, leading to a low-kill game, where map-movement and neutral objectives were the only way to get a lead at the very top-levels of play. Essentially this meant that there were instances of 2v0 and later 4v0 lanes. Since then, structural changes mostly came down to a patch that enabled a weird playstyle, such as funneling two years ago, where the midlaner was running around with a support and covered the midlane and the jungle, taking a lot of experience and gold for a hyper-scaling champion, so by minute 15 they are as strong as they usually would be by minute 30. In professional play, 1/1/1/2 is mostly set in stone up until the early game ends (usually when the first tower is destroyed). Professional teams start moving around the map after that, leading to weird scenarios, like five people diving one enemy, while the other team takes a neutral objective together. Imo, that is not actually that different to Starcraft. While there is a huge explosion of variety at some point, the first 5-ish minutes are usually similar and depend on the meta-game, if you ignore cheeses (which also exist in LoL early-games).
That was a genuinely interesting explanation of how LoL's metagame has shifted over time. I've always thought it was weird that these roles were somehow "built" into the game from the get-go, but you're saying it actually started out very unstructured (besides the overall goal of "kill the nexus"). Is this from personal experience or are there other resources you've pulled this from?
@@oscarr5734 Glad you enjoyed it :). It did experience it all first-hand which is why I am passionate about the topic, but here are a few videos and channels that that you can watch that are more in-depth. This history of the jungle: ua-cam.com/video/wXAG9EDlkCQ/v-deo.html History of the toplane meta: ua-cam.com/video/FudkS5HXNq8/v-deo.html History of the early League meta: ua-cam.com/video/Nlrf7E72-GM/v-deo.html Various videos by Kudo (especially the one about funneling and the world championships): ua-cam.com/channels/bBOo1p8Fq1g7SimKOddc8w.html
Now I have to go back and watch the series. I actually forgot you a Nony did commentary for that. This was easily one of the most epic moments in esports
Sounds great man 😂👌 No, all the time since I've watched my dad when I was young play this I knew something was off but there's something really cool in mastering all of this weird sh*t
I like this explanation. I never played Broodwar, I play SC2. But I have to say, SC2 feels the same way. Like balancing on a needle and the tiniest push or error can snowball out of control towards absolute disaster. Maybe I'm just spoiled by playing different games, but losing like this usually feels very frustrating.
The more modern answer seems to be Zergs going for various hydra bust/pressure builds. It can kill them before corsairs hit efficient numbers, and forces the Protoss to build other things to avoid dying. If you don't kill them, you still force a bunch of cannons, probably kill the forge and gate, and delay +1 attack, kill a bunch of zealots, and potentially the cyber core if they built it as part of the wall. You can still expand behind it and flow from a hydra contain to a lurker contain. The spire can be a backup if they somehow managed to build a lot of corsairs.
I've loved BW since the 90s, but never followed pro games until remastered came out. 6 years later and I'm just now starting to feel like I "understand" the matchups somewhat. It truly is the game that keeps on giving!
Coming back to Brood war after several years long hiatus I can really feel the frustration of ZvP. Now it's not just the corsairs to pester you but the scouts too. It really is a strange match up.
![[Highlight] How the Police Found My Stolen Car](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/akyAFmbjeYI/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Highlight] How the Police Found My Stolen Car](/img/tr.png)
![[Highlight] The "Vegas Kid" (A Starcraft Story)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hifTL7Gk1UI/mqdefault.jpg)
I miss Day[9] talking about StarCraft/StarCraft 2 strats. Bring back Funday Monday!
You'd think with lotv he would come back but nope
I wish that it would come back too, but I think it required an absolutely insane amount of work behind the scenes.
@@Boots43096 from what I understand, prepping for SC2 episodes took way more time and it wasn't garnering enough viewership than other stuff that took less time, but has twice the viewership results. But it doesn't explain why he's doesn't play or even co-host major tournaments anymore.
I honestly miss dearly Day[9] daily... I know it's a lot of commitment... But a Day[9] weekly, or heck, even a monthly I would LOVE. Whether Funday Monday, Noobie Tuesday or just an analysis of a pro-game. Sean if you read this... Consider doing it once a blue moon. I miss that kind of content especially for SC/SC2.
@@pinoy929 he could at LEAST stream the ladder or something once in a while even if he doesn't wanna do the replay reviews, but oh well.
10:58 small sidenote here, they also have to use their _larva_ to make these Overlords, meaning those Larva cannot be actual combat units now either, meaning the Zerg also loses a bit of ground army size in order to replenish Overlords, not just money.
What year is it? When was the last time I remember hearing Day[9] talking about PvZ lol, I feel so confused...
His learn to play series, perhaps?
I expected to see part of his tooth missing.
Yeah this came out of absolutely nowhere!
Finally a good fucking topic ❤️
Waste of time, exactly
Please to be more StarCraft talk. You're a major reason I started casting.
😊😊😊
I love your channel too, keep up the good work
learn well, falcon
Brenda and Karen.
My maaan!¡ Keep it up
I love even though it's been more than 20 years of existing, Day[9] still explains the game in a way anyone could understand even if they never knew what Starcraft was. True mentoring power.
Find yourself someone who looks at you the way Sean looks when he talks about Bisu
This video is one of day9's finest. This is why game patches with nerfs and buffs should be less frequent.
LOVE that you're still talking about BW, played PvZ few days ago, said "i think i have enough corsairs" then he had more scourge... and i lost.
The universe: "here have some coronavirus"
Also the universe: "also here is Sean talking about Starcraft"
Balanced as all things should be.
Agreed. Awesome to see...
Spiffing brit reference?
Yessssss! That’s the first thing I thought
sacrifices must be made
PvZ is not balanced though...
Starcraft is basically "I'm gonna counter your counter with my counter unless you counter my counter with another counter in which i'll counter that with my unintuitive counter until you counter that. Then i'm going to reddit Protoss OP"
You described it well. And the same thing in SC2 is Phoenix/Zealot.
I don't know Brood War that well, but in SC2 stargate opening is quite useful harrassment against macro zerg. With the lift ability, phoenix surely has more universal value than corsair, though generally not enough to stop a zerg all-in. But hey, you can still blame that zerg anti-air ground unit is too weak (then they buffed queen).
@@coincidence4054 Queen. Best zerg unit. Marine, best terran unit, warp prism, best protoss unit
I think Starcraft more than any other game has the angle "you counter my unit? Well I built a hundred and I can rebuild them faster than you can kill them until you have 20 counter units out.
Much different than age of empires which is about I harass your economy while you harass my economy and hope I can micro my workers better until I can actually build things that can properly damage you ability to rebuild things..
@@coincidence4054 Corsairs are way more efficient than phoenix because they have an AoE attack and they kill overlords a lot faster. Also SC:Brood War didn't have queens, or unlimited mutalisk selection or a bunch of other stuff. And their ability to attack or effect ground units was completely irrelevant.
lagg1e I legit just won a Starcraft 2 match versus a turtling mech player with mass Vikings. That and he had 120 scv’s and no fighting units lol
Dude I watched this rant and immediately went back and watched some of you analysis of pro games in your Let's Learn Starcraft series
Jokes on you, I mass hatcheries for my supply.
_raises finger, is about to say something_
*hand lowers, mouth closes*
@@novikovPrinciple this is the gif you're looking for media.giphy.com/media/BmX38GoChnxRe/giphy.gif
from archer if you haven't seen it
60,000 minerals just for supply? Good luck finding that on a 1v1 map in Broodwar.
@@DEZEKER08 someone hasn't played fastest
@@gravity111587 not relevant since Sean was talking about pro matches which aren't played on money maps.
I love that 3 rocks beat paper thing, i just imagine a bunch of scissors ganging up on a single rock, slowly turning him to gravel. =))
Zealots killing an Ultralisk.
small videos on the history of Starcraft strategy would be awesome!!! it would bring back some of the Starcraft magic you gave us before. Super interesting to hear this and I would love some more if you have anything else to talk about.
THIS
I don't even play StarCraft and this video was super interesting, so yeah that would be great.
YES!!!
Oh man I love this idea.
I wish more of this history would be brought up by casters. I feel like a lot of this counter-anticounter play is present in SC2, but the reasons why aren't always apparent to a new viewer.
It took the entire global economy to crumble to make day9 come back to SC
When I saw Sean draw that box at the start, I knew this was going to be good. "You think they should build ground units?" "NO!"
So happy to have Day9 back talking some SC:Broodwar, this just brings me back to Funday Mondays, newbie Tuesdays, and commentary on some of the most epic games to ever grace a computer screen. This Sean has been missed!!! Welcome back
Lesson learned; have more rocks than your opponents. Thanks, Day9!
Can we have this on a T-shirt? Three rocks BEAT paper?
I saw this in my recommended, and I knew that it was on a topic that I don't particularly care about, and almost certainly won't have any relevance to me for the rest of my life. I also knew that Sean was going to describe it in such a fascinating way that none of that would matter!
Its ok to be interested in things that dont matter man!!
There is a pandemic, Stock Market is crashing, grocery store shelves are empty. But at least I got my Day9 talking about BroodWar, love you Day9.
Someone should start a petition for new SC content from Day9!
I wish he would just play random games. He has so much to offer in term of generic game theory analysis. He understands game design, and it's interesting to watch him comment on it while playing a variety of games. It should always be Day9's day off.
Honestly, every non mirror matchup in broodwar is amazing. They all have such rich history and cool interactions. Since remastered TvZ has had so many wacky innovations with mech that were only dabbled in, in the times of OG brooodwar.
Even mirror matchups are great. TvT is a beautiful siege tank line vs siege tank line. PvP is full of intense micro battles. ZvZ is a tense matchup where even the slightest loss can mean total defeat.
@@VioletteZero i believe back in the prime tvt is always mass army with tank + goliath but they rarely fight. Instead the win or lose depend on how drop harass, controling base. Covert action do the thing.
Pretty accurate to real world
Three Rocks beat Two Paper is one of the best analogies I've ever heard. I love it.
Man, Your videos and Husky Starcraft was literally everything I watched in Highschool. Although I miss your starcraft 2 Content, and Funday Mondays i understand u have a life outside of UA-cam.
Keep doing you!
As someone who watched every Day9 daily about Broodwar, this was amazing as nostalgia. Also, my favourite matchup of any RTS to date.
Thank you Mr J!
The depth and development and evolution of PvZ as Day9 described I can finally understand how this game is compared to that of Chess.
Thanks, Sean! It honest to god brings a tear to my eye to have more Broodwar content. You've done so much for the community around this game. We appreciate you!
Anyone have VODs of the Bisu games he's talking about? Bet it was hype af
2007.03.03. 2007 GOMTV MSL Final Savior vs Bisu
Game 1: ua-cam.com/video/oiIATP1hxCQ/v-deo.html
Game 2: ua-cam.com/video/hdBW9g6dhO4/v-deo.html
Game 3: ua-cam.com/video/bx9Oe3yrL_w/v-deo.html
2007.11.30. 2007 EVER OSL Quarterfinal Bisu vs Savior
Game 2: ua-cam.com/video/1630pqMhVjo/v-deo.html
Bisu was a no-name and Savior was the best Starcraft player at this period. Savior had a PvZ win ratio of over 90% and had never lost a bottom of 5 series in his entire career, never even went to game 5. This no-name player came up with this unique macro strategy completely out of the blue and destroyed Savior that day, forever revolutionizing the PvZ game. This new trend in the PvZ game lead to Savior's downfall, and Bisu went on to become the greatest Protoss player of all time. This was one of the most shocking events in SC history, and people called it the "March 3rd Revolution". Even to this day, whenever it's March 3rd every year, Korean fans gather up in SC communities to celebrate this remarkable event.
Thanks to Bisu and this macro, for the first and only time, Protoss players gained an advantage over the Zerg and had a renaissance period in 2007. But at 2008 an aspiring Zerg player named Jaedong came up with a counter to Bisu's macro, and once again the Zerg regained their advantage over the Protoss. Because of that, Bisu fell into a slump in 2008 and had to change his PvZ game to get back up again.
@@dwgreen108 Thank you so freaking much!
@@dwgreen108 That was insane, Savior had no clue how to handle it.
@@dwgreen108 ah the dong rises!
Reminder that ASL is currently on the Round of 24! You can watch it on the AfreecaTV channel every Sunday and Tuesday! Today's PvZ were amazin'.
Woke up 30 mins ago. Thought I was hallucinating from a high fever when I saw this video. Had to look at the time posted multiple times just to be sure.
Man, get well soon. I have no fever, but I also felt like hallucinating. Shit times. So best recommendation: Watch ASL and stay home.
Sc2 player here. This reminds me a lot of how strategies that are terrible at higher levels, that nobody who's good at the game considers, end up working. Sometimes you stick a novice up against an experienced player and they win because their timing is so awful it works. Once. Only once, but it works. Your friend saying they were being dumb might have been right.
This was awesome! I haven't watched Day9 in years and this brought back so many memories and smiles.
Make this a series!!
Great video, your SC videos highlight the unusual beauty of high level competition to me. Makes me want to watch some brood war
Honestly, this kind of counter intuitive logic is fascinating.
In real war, you can achieve a lot by gutting someone's logistics. So it's a very weird setup that almost feels like authentic guerilla war
OMG, can we have Sean talking about Starcraft again?! That would be the greatest thing ever right now. He is great with MTGA but its just not my cup of tea.
Day9’s Starcraft vids and breakdowns years ago were the reason why my ranked jumped from silver to plat/diamond. God I missed these vids. Nice to see one again
I'm not even a SC fan really but god I miss Day9 talking SC.
Haven’t watched Day9 for about 7 years. This video was fkn dope, the memories! (mostly bad memories of me sucking at Starcraft)
Haven’t been recommended a Day9 video in ages, but oh my, did it bring a smile to my face.
The comparisons to other games & format of the explanation was as easy to understand as ever.
Love this man.
Haven't visited the channel for a while but every time I see Shawn talk about SC, I'm so down for it.. Even though I never played anything else than the campaign
I love this kind of stuff in games. I know it's counter intuitive for beginners, but it feels so rewarding to have lateral options to solve the game rather than just obvious strategy. In Magic, things like virtual card advantage are really similar and it's what makes the game interesting in my opinion.
It was really interesting to hear the high level breakdown of how a meta emerged and shifted. Thank you for sharing this.
It's really sad to me how uncommon this particular variety of rock-paper-scissors is in modern esports. In fighting games, it's common to knock your opponent down, walk up, and then just block. In Pokemon, it's common to use fire moves against water dudes predicting them to switch to a grass dude. It's unintuitive, but it makes metagames so much more vibrant and dynamic.
people still do that in sc2. thing is, zerg players developed better counters to mass air units. meanwhile protoss have better strategies, and units they can use. even if, they do have powerfull air to air units that are usefull against ground units en masse.
@@marcosdheleno anyone spoke about sc2 here?
@@nizdeniz not outright, but he did mention "modern esports", which does include sc2. also you make it sound like sc2 is a forbidden word that shall not be spoken or something...
@@marcosdheleno youre Goddamn right
Not really, it is intuitive ones you really feel the game. Its more dynamic because its an RTS which means it has a lot more elements to it than games of other genres.
I think I needed this. It's nice to hear you talking about StarCraft again, even just for a bit. With every game you cover, your enthusiasm always shines through and it's a big part of why I love watching you; but there will always be something unique about hearing you talk SC.
The passion and the understanding, the way you explain everything so elegantly and in a way that anyone could understand even if they were new to the game... it reminds me how you made me fall in love with SC back in the day and honestly getting into those streams had a big positive influence on my life and my general outlook/mindset.
I'll always support you and your channel regardless of what you cover, because you're a joy to watch play and talk about almost regardless of the game in question. But know that if you ever feel like chatting some StarCraft again, however casually or briefly, I'm always here for it. But, of course, no pressure! Much love, Sean!
No way hes doing a sc vid like the land before time again
I love these "meta" talks about games and how you can string the connections from one type of game to the next
1. One of the absolutely great things about the Zealot push is that it takes no gas. Your corsair army absolutely needs 2 gas to function so having a decent ground army that takes no gas is so powerful.
2. Zerg developed the hydra bust to exploit the lack of ground/ranged ground forces when the toss does the fast starport opening, many toss die to this at upper skill levels.
Sean Plott talking about Starcaft. I guess I've found the first redeeming quality of 2020 :)
Coming from Go, when people ask about dealing with situations that they shouldn't have gotten into, i find myself reminded of the advice that when you can't find a good move, you probably did something wrong a while ago and should try to figure out what and when that was instead.
Holy shit, this is the OG day9 feel, I miss this in a way words fail to express
Nice breakdown, interesting side effect of the Zerg having a flying supply 'building'.
God how I miss hearing Day9 talking about starcraft... It's so satisfying
Im going to join the army pleading for some form of funday Monday to come back. I legit miss those hilarious vids/ games. Nukes and seus will always be remembered.
I decided to give a go at the broodwar ladder about 2 years. I started with zerg, I lost my first 5 games to corsairs killing overlords with NOTHING i could do about it. Came back again, lost 5 more to the same thing, and I decided brood war was not for me.
I don't play starcraft but I don't know why but youtube always shows me day9 when he talks about starcraft and then I listen to the entire thing!
great nostalgia. please do one on how weird and charming firebathero was.
you forgot to mention that after corsair rush bisu did he followed with dark templars, and later this protoss build, known as "bisu build" would be countered by jaedong by simply doing scourge and anti air defense to counter both corsair and templars. even though these builds is still used today during mid game comes to a point where turns into a stalemate
As someone who didn't play much Brood War competitively (outside of custom game bullshit), this was super insightful and a lot of fun to watch!
Man, as someone who's never played Broodwar (or League or Dota, for that matter), this was an amazingly well done explanation that was very easy to follow.
I always loved how when Sean says "Supply Depot" it sounds like his saying "Supplidy Poh"
This is the content I came for and continue to wait for
I love hearing him talk about things he cares about
14:21 No corsairs also means no stable defence versus mutalisk switch.
If you ever played SC original (no Broodwar exp), you'll know how much Protoss struggled agaisnt Zerg Air.
Hit me right in the feels. I’ve started watching Brood War since Day9 stopped covering StarCraft. Missed this. ❤️
You fakkin pansy.
That doesn't sound weird at all, that sounds like an amazing strategy game actually!
Yeah, but non-intuitive
it is, and probably one of the best RTS games ever made
It definitely sounds ass-backwards.
@@fabi2k More like probably the best, not one of the best. :D
Day9 covering Starcraft? Is this an out of season April's Fools joke? It's a dream come true!
More Broodwar!
DUDE its been years since ive even seen Day9. Totally had forgotten about him lol glad youtube reconnected me lol
The way you explain the amorphousness of Broodwar reminds me of magic. I know nothing of those other games you mention, but when you started talking about knowing what your opponent "should" be able to do based on their race, this really reminds me of playing magic and knowing what my opponent should be able to do based on their color.
For example, if someone said "but what if my blue opponent kills me on turn 4 with her strong creatures?" then I would similarly say something like "well something doesn't sound right here."
I'm feeling a lot of parallels.
Killing the Overlords sounds a bit like killing lands in MTG
I can't really think of an analog for the "weird" matchup though. I guess you could compare it to weird sideboard strategies in mtg. Like when non-blue decks started sideboarding Negates in Alara-Zendikar standard because Spreading Seas got popular as a way to fight the slightly janky 3 color mana-bases of the time
I must admit, I used to watch you a lot, but just had other things I watched more recently... This one had me both laughing and thinking at the same time, very well done :-D
I remember watching all the Day[9] videos on starcraft 1 in high school so i could own all my friends when we played lolol. I miss this.
This meta talk is awesome. Can you cover more of it throughout Starcraft and Magic history? Odd meta shifts from patches/new card sets, as well as the even weirder solutions to them?
02:30
To anyone who is interested: Yes and no. In early Season 1, when LoL was young, the developers didn't really force any structural metagame. After all, it was more or less a copy of Dota. But by the time the Season 1 World Championship rolled around, European teams have figured out how to best distribute champions throughout the map.
The jungle was such, that only a select few characters could actually clear it efficiently, so at that point it wasn't actually set in stone that someone would jungle from the start of the gane to the end. European teams figured out that having a designated jungler means more effectice distribution of ressources on the map (top lane gets all the gold and experience in his lane and jungle from bis jungle, instead of them sharing it). That meant they revolved the pick for the role around whether they could clear the jungle safely on their own and contribute to the game after that
Next up, Europeans figured out that mid-lane is the shortest lane and while it had the most paths from which an enemy could ambush the lane, you also had the least distance to cover in case you did get ganked. So Europeans put strong champs with low mobility there, which were usually mages. Mages scaled most with experience, so they had to be alone on the map to capitalize from experience gain.
Lastly you had two more people but only one lane left. Before the championship, people usually put two champions down there with a lot of kill potential, but Europeans thought that funnelling all ressources into the lane on a ranged character with high potential dps is the smarter choice. The other character would be a support, either someone that provides additional power/safety to the lane partner through their abilities, or a champion that doesn't need much gold to be effectice. That character was relegated to buy wards all game, basically.
Riot eventually rolled with that structure and balanced the game and later the map accordingly. Until, I believe, around Season 3. Professional teams were getting so good at tracking enemy junglers and not straight-up losing lane, that nothing would happen for long stretches of the early game. Proactive teams who had mechanically skilled players didn't like that and came up with lane-swapping. They would put their top-laner in the bottom lane and the two bot-laners top. The idea was to get a top (now bot) laner, who can hold off the enemy duo long enough, until his teams' botlane (now top) took the enemy tower and returned bot before their own tower died.
The metagame revolved around this a lot until riot enforced patches that would stop this, because the top laners would end up rather farming the jungle with their jungler than defending the tower against two people, leading to a low-kill game, where map-movement and neutral objectives were the only way to get a lead at the very top-levels of play. Essentially this meant that there were instances of 2v0 and later 4v0 lanes.
Since then, structural changes mostly came down to a patch that enabled a weird playstyle, such as funneling two years ago, where the midlaner was running around with a support and covered the midlane and the jungle, taking a lot of experience and gold for a hyper-scaling champion, so by minute 15 they are as strong as they usually would be by minute 30. In professional play, 1/1/1/2 is mostly set in stone up until the early game ends (usually when the first tower is destroyed). Professional teams start moving around the map after that, leading to weird scenarios, like five people diving one enemy, while the other team takes a neutral objective together. Imo, that is not actually that different to Starcraft. While there is a huge explosion of variety at some point, the first 5-ish minutes are usually similar and depend on the meta-game, if you ignore cheeses (which also exist in LoL early-games).
That was a genuinely interesting explanation of how LoL's metagame has shifted over time. I've always thought it was weird that these roles were somehow "built" into the game from the get-go, but you're saying it actually started out very unstructured (besides the overall goal of "kill the nexus"). Is this from personal experience or are there other resources you've pulled this from?
@@oscarr5734 Glad you enjoyed it :). It did experience it all first-hand which is why I am passionate about the topic, but here are a few videos and channels that that you can watch that are more in-depth.
This history of the jungle: ua-cam.com/video/wXAG9EDlkCQ/v-deo.html
History of the toplane meta: ua-cam.com/video/FudkS5HXNq8/v-deo.html
History of the early League meta: ua-cam.com/video/Nlrf7E72-GM/v-deo.html
Various videos by Kudo (especially the one about funneling and the world championships): ua-cam.com/channels/bBOo1p8Fq1g7SimKOddc8w.html
Now I have to go back and watch the series. I actually forgot you a Nony did commentary for that. This was easily one of the most epic moments in esports
That was amazing. I don't know much about starcraft but was able to follow the whole video through the references to other games that you made.
the mechanic that he explained is basically the onset of a speculative bubble in the context of a game of Starcraft
What a great podcast that was. I'd love to hear more broodwar stories. This game is one of a kind.
I'm going to love this video, I already know it
I like that you almost always bracket the word [HIGHLIGHT]
Just thought I'd put that out there.
Sounds great man 😂👌 No, all the time since I've watched my dad when I was young play this I knew something was off but there's something really cool in mastering all of this weird sh*t
I like this explanation. I never played Broodwar, I play SC2.
But I have to say, SC2 feels the same way. Like balancing on a needle and the tiniest push or error can snowball out of control towards absolute disaster.
Maybe I'm just spoiled by playing different games, but losing like this usually feels very frustrating.
Great to see you back in SC, Day9! Your announcer pack is all we have left!
Damn this was all I ever wanted love you man thanks for all the good times
to quote Temp0: Thank God For Day[9]
I watched your videos 9 years later. When i remember old good times, i do open youtube and search your videos.
ua-cam.com/video/Z8TL8Aql1eE/v-deo.html
The more modern answer seems to be Zergs going for various hydra bust/pressure builds. It can kill them before corsairs hit efficient numbers, and forces the Protoss to build other things to avoid dying.
If you don't kill them, you still force a bunch of cannons, probably kill the forge and gate, and delay +1 attack, kill a bunch of zealots, and potentially the cyber core if they built it as part of the wall. You can still expand behind it and flow from a hydra contain to a lurker contain. The spire can be a backup if they somehow managed to build a lot of corsairs.
I've loved BW since the 90s, but never followed pro games until remastered came out. 6 years later and I'm just now starting to feel like I "understand" the matchups somewhat. It truly is the game that keeps on giving!
If Day 9 would write a book about the evolution of the star craft metagame, I would buy it!
RIP day9 starcraft
Understanding the development of meta-games in competitive PvP games is fascinating!
How nice is it to feel day 9 talking about starcraft
My dumb ass who didn't know about Starcraft thought there was a Plants vs. Zombies crossover.
I miss the Starcraft 2 casts. I keep going back to older vids of yours to brush up on my strats..
all those years that past till sc2 and day9 is still using paint
good old times
I love this analytic deep dive into the history of iconic metas!
Before you said scourge I was like, hydras... just hydralisks... does everything
came back to day9 after a few years. still got it.
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BROOD WAR AND I CANNOT DESCRIBE THE JOY I FEEL WOW GOD BLESS YOU ALL GOODNIGHT
Coming back to Brood war after several years long hiatus I can really feel the frustration of ZvP. Now it's not just the corsairs to pester you but the scouts too. It really is a strange match up.
This dude could talk about literally anything and be compelling.