[Highlight] Why PvZ in Broodwar is WEIRD
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- Опубліковано 14 бер 2020
- I just had some thoughts about Broodwar from PvZ that I wanted to get down on paper. Enjoy my mini-rant!
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I miss Day[9] talking about StarCraft/StarCraft 2 strats. Bring back Funday Monday!
You'd think with lotv he would come back but nope
I wish that it would come back too, but I think it required an absolutely insane amount of work behind the scenes.
@@Boots43096 from what I understand, prepping for SC2 episodes took way more time and it wasn't garnering enough viewership than other stuff that took less time, but has twice the viewership results. But it doesn't explain why he's doesn't play or even co-host major tournaments anymore.
I honestly miss dearly Day[9] daily... I know it's a lot of commitment... But a Day[9] weekly, or heck, even a monthly I would LOVE. Whether Funday Monday, Noobie Tuesday or just an analysis of a pro-game. Sean if you read this... Consider doing it once a blue moon. I miss that kind of content especially for SC/SC2.
@@pinoy929 he could at LEAST stream the ladder or something once in a while even if he doesn't wanna do the replay reviews, but oh well.
What year is it? When was the last time I remember hearing Day[9] talking about PvZ lol, I feel so confused...
His learn to play series, perhaps?
I expected to see part of his tooth missing.
Yeah this came out of absolutely nowhere!
Finally a good fucking topic ❤️
Waste of time, exactly
10:58 small sidenote here, they also have to use their _larva_ to make these Overlords, meaning those Larva cannot be actual combat units now either, meaning the Zerg also loses a bit of ground army size in order to replenish Overlords, not just money.
Please to be more StarCraft talk. You're a major reason I started casting.
😊😊😊
I love your channel too, keep up the good work
learn well, falcon
Brenda and Karen.
My maaan!¡ Keep it up
Find yourself someone who looks at you the way Sean looks when he talks about Bisu
I love even though it's been more than 20 years of existing, Day[9] still explains the game in a way anyone could understand even if they never knew what Starcraft was. True mentoring power.
Jokes on you, I mass hatcheries for my supply.
_raises finger, is about to say something_
*hand lowers, mouth closes*
@@novikovPrinciple this is the gif you're looking for media.giphy.com/media/BmX38GoChnxRe/giphy.gif
from archer if you haven't seen it
60,000 minerals just for supply? Good luck finding that on a 1v1 map in Broodwar.
@@DEZEKER08 someone hasn't played fastest
@@gravity111587 not relevant since Sean was talking about pro matches which aren't played on money maps.
The universe: "here have some coronavirus"
Also the universe: "also here is Sean talking about Starcraft"
Balanced as all things should be.
Agreed. Awesome to see...
Spiffing brit reference?
Yessssss! That’s the first thing I thought
sacrifices must be made
PvZ is not balanced though...
Starcraft is basically "I'm gonna counter your counter with my counter unless you counter my counter with another counter in which i'll counter that with my unintuitive counter until you counter that. Then i'm going to reddit Protoss OP"
You described it well. And the same thing in SC2 is Phoenix/Zealot.
I don't know Brood War that well, but in SC2 stargate opening is quite useful harrassment against macro zerg. With the lift ability, phoenix surely has more universal value than corsair, though generally not enough to stop a zerg all-in. But hey, you can still blame that zerg anti-air ground unit is too weak (then they buffed queen).
@@coincidence4054 Queen. Best zerg unit. Marine, best terran unit, warp prism, best protoss unit
I think Starcraft more than any other game has the angle "you counter my unit? Well I built a hundred and I can rebuild them faster than you can kill them until you have 20 counter units out.
Much different than age of empires which is about I harass your economy while you harass my economy and hope I can micro my workers better until I can actually build things that can properly damage you ability to rebuild things..
@@coincidence4054 Corsairs are way more efficient than phoenix because they have an AoE attack and they kill overlords a lot faster. Also SC:Brood War didn't have queens, or unlimited mutalisk selection or a bunch of other stuff. And their ability to attack or effect ground units was completely irrelevant.
lagg1e I legit just won a Starcraft 2 match versus a turtling mech player with mass Vikings. That and he had 120 scv’s and no fighting units lol
LOVE that you're still talking about BW, played PvZ few days ago, said "i think i have enough corsairs" then he had more scourge... and i lost.
Dude I watched this rant and immediately went back and watched some of you analysis of pro games in your Let's Learn Starcraft series
Day9 speak of Starcraft? What year is this? I enjoyed this so much. Thats it. I'm going back to watch fundaymonday
You goddamn genius
I love that 3 rocks beat paper thing, i just imagine a bunch of scissors ganging up on a single rock, slowly turning him to gravel. =))
Zealots killing an Ultralisk.
It took the entire global economy to crumble to make day9 come back to SC
small videos on the history of Starcraft strategy would be awesome!!! it would bring back some of the Starcraft magic you gave us before. Super interesting to hear this and I would love some more if you have anything else to talk about.
THIS
I don't even play StarCraft and this video was super interesting, so yeah that would be great.
YES!!!
Oh man I love this idea.
I wish more of this history would be brought up by casters. I feel like a lot of this counter-anticounter play is present in SC2, but the reasons why aren't always apparent to a new viewer.
When I saw Sean draw that box at the start, I knew this was going to be good. "You think they should build ground units?" "NO!"
Can we have this on a T-shirt? Three rocks BEAT paper?
I saw this in my recommended, and I knew that it was on a topic that I don't particularly care about, and almost certainly won't have any relevance to me for the rest of my life. I also knew that Sean was going to describe it in such a fascinating way that none of that would matter!
Its ok to be interested in things that dont matter man!!
Lesson learned; have more rocks than your opponents. Thanks, Day9!
So happy to have Day9 back talking some SC:Broodwar, this just brings me back to Funday Mondays, newbie Tuesdays, and commentary on some of the most epic games to ever grace a computer screen. This Sean has been missed!!! Welcome back
Honestly, every non mirror matchup in broodwar is amazing. They all have such rich history and cool interactions. Since remastered TvZ has had so many wacky innovations with mech that were only dabbled in, in the times of OG brooodwar.
Even mirror matchups are great. TvT is a beautiful siege tank line vs siege tank line. PvP is full of intense micro battles. ZvZ is a tense matchup where even the slightest loss can mean total defeat.
@@VioletteZero i believe back in the prime tvt is always mass army with tank + goliath but they rarely fight. Instead the win or lose depend on how drop harass, controling base. Covert action do the thing.
Pretty accurate to real world
Someone should start a petition for new SC content from Day9!
I wish he would just play random games. He has so much to offer in term of generic game theory analysis. He understands game design, and it's interesting to watch him comment on it while playing a variety of games. It should always be Day9's day off.
Three Rocks beat Two Paper is one of the best analogies I've ever heard. I love it.
Thanks, Sean! It honest to god brings a tear to my eye to have more Broodwar content. You've done so much for the community around this game. We appreciate you!
This was awesome! I haven't watched Day9 in years and this brought back so many memories and smiles.
Make this a series!!
As someone who watched every Day9 daily about Broodwar, this was amazing as nostalgia. Also, my favourite matchup of any RTS to date.
Thank you Mr J!
There is a pandemic, Stock Market is crashing, grocery store shelves are empty. But at least I got my Day9 talking about BroodWar, love you Day9.
Anyone have VODs of the Bisu games he's talking about? Bet it was hype af
2007.03.03. 2007 GOMTV MSL Final Savior vs Bisu
Game 1: ua-cam.com/video/oiIATP1hxCQ/v-deo.html
Game 2: ua-cam.com/video/hdBW9g6dhO4/v-deo.html
Game 3: ua-cam.com/video/bx9Oe3yrL_w/v-deo.html
2007.11.30. 2007 EVER OSL Quarterfinal Bisu vs Savior
Game 2: ua-cam.com/video/1630pqMhVjo/v-deo.html
Bisu was a no-name and Savior was the best Starcraft player at this period. Savior had a PvZ win ratio of over 90% and had never lost a bottom of 5 series in his entire career, never even went to game 5. This no-name player came up with this unique macro strategy completely out of the blue and destroyed Savior that day, forever revolutionizing the PvZ game. This new trend in the PvZ game lead to Savior's downfall, and Bisu went on to become the greatest Protoss player of all time. This was one of the most shocking events in SC history, and people called it the "March 3rd Revolution". Even to this day, whenever it's March 3rd every year, Korean fans gather up in SC communities to celebrate this remarkable event.
Thanks to Bisu and this macro, for the first and only time, Protoss players gained an advantage over the Zerg and had a renaissance period in 2007. But at 2008 an aspiring Zerg player named Jaedong came up with a counter to Bisu's macro, and once again the Zerg regained their advantage over the Protoss. Because of that, Bisu fell into a slump in 2008 and had to change his PvZ game to get back up again.
@@dwgreen108 Thank you so freaking much!
@@dwgreen108 That was insane, Savior had no clue how to handle it.
@@dwgreen108 ah the dong rises!
Great video, your SC videos highlight the unusual beauty of high level competition to me. Makes me want to watch some brood war
Woke up 30 mins ago. Thought I was hallucinating from a high fever when I saw this video. Had to look at the time posted multiple times just to be sure.
Man, get well soon. I have no fever, but I also felt like hallucinating. Shit times. So best recommendation: Watch ASL and stay home.
Man, Your videos and Husky Starcraft was literally everything I watched in Highschool. Although I miss your starcraft 2 Content, and Funday Mondays i understand u have a life outside of UA-cam.
Keep doing you!
The depth and development and evolution of PvZ as Day9 described I can finally understand how this game is compared to that of Chess.
Haven’t watched Day9 for about 7 years. This video was fkn dope, the memories! (mostly bad memories of me sucking at Starcraft)
This video is one of day9's finest. This is why game patches with nerfs and buffs should be less frequent.
I must admit, I used to watch you a lot, but just had other things I watched more recently... This one had me both laughing and thinking at the same time, very well done :-D
Day9’s Starcraft vids and breakdowns years ago were the reason why my ranked jumped from silver to plat/diamond. God I missed these vids. Nice to see one again
I think I needed this. It's nice to hear you talking about StarCraft again, even just for a bit. With every game you cover, your enthusiasm always shines through and it's a big part of why I love watching you; but there will always be something unique about hearing you talk SC.
The passion and the understanding, the way you explain everything so elegantly and in a way that anyone could understand even if they were new to the game... it reminds me how you made me fall in love with SC back in the day and honestly getting into those streams had a big positive influence on my life and my general outlook/mindset.
I'll always support you and your channel regardless of what you cover, because you're a joy to watch play and talk about almost regardless of the game in question. But know that if you ever feel like chatting some StarCraft again, however casually or briefly, I'm always here for it. But, of course, no pressure! Much love, Sean!
Haven't visited the channel for a while but every time I see Shawn talk about SC, I'm so down for it.. Even though I never played anything else than the campaign
It's really sad to me how uncommon this particular variety of rock-paper-scissors is in modern esports. In fighting games, it's common to knock your opponent down, walk up, and then just block. In Pokemon, it's common to use fire moves against water dudes predicting them to switch to a grass dude. It's unintuitive, but it makes metagames so much more vibrant and dynamic.
people still do that in sc2. thing is, zerg players developed better counters to mass air units. meanwhile protoss have better strategies, and units they can use. even if, they do have powerfull air to air units that are usefull against ground units en masse.
@@marcosdheleno anyone spoke about sc2 here?
@@nizdeniz not outright, but he did mention "modern esports", which does include sc2. also you make it sound like sc2 is a forbidden word that shall not be spoken or something...
@@marcosdheleno youre Goddamn right
Not really, it is intuitive ones you really feel the game. Its more dynamic because its an RTS which means it has a lot more elements to it than games of other genres.
It was really interesting to hear the high level breakdown of how a meta emerged and shifted. Thank you for sharing this.
Reminder that ASL is currently on the Round of 24! You can watch it on the AfreecaTV channel every Sunday and Tuesday! Today's PvZ were amazin'.
This is the content I came for and continue to wait for
I'm not even a SC fan really but god I miss Day9 talking SC.
Honestly, this kind of counter intuitive logic is fascinating.
In real war, you can achieve a lot by gutting someone's logistics. So it's a very weird setup that almost feels like authentic guerilla war
No way hes doing a sc vid like the land before time again
OMG, can we have Sean talking about Starcraft again?! That would be the greatest thing ever right now. He is great with MTGA but its just not my cup of tea.
I decided to give a go at the broodwar ladder about 2 years. I started with zerg, I lost my first 5 games to corsairs killing overlords with NOTHING i could do about it. Came back again, lost 5 more to the same thing, and I decided brood war was not for me.
Great to see you back in SC, Day9! Your announcer pack is all we have left!
That was amazing. I don't know much about starcraft but was able to follow the whole video through the references to other games that you made.
Im going to join the army pleading for some form of funday Monday to come back. I legit miss those hilarious vids/ games. Nukes and seus will always be remembered.
Damn this was all I ever wanted love you man thanks for all the good times
thanks for the upload day9 such a nice think piece
I love this kind of stuff in games. I know it's counter intuitive for beginners, but it feels so rewarding to have lateral options to solve the game rather than just obvious strategy. In Magic, things like virtual card advantage are really similar and it's what makes the game interesting in my opinion.
What a great podcast that was. I'd love to hear more broodwar stories. This game is one of a kind.
Holy shit, this is the OG day9 feel, I miss this in a way words fail to express
Sounds great man 😂👌 No, all the time since I've watched my dad when I was young play this I knew something was off but there's something really cool in mastering all of this weird sh*t
Man, as someone who's never played Broodwar (or League or Dota, for that matter), this was an amazingly well done explanation that was very easy to follow.
Ahh I have missed this Sean! Thank you!
This meta talk is awesome. Can you cover more of it throughout Starcraft and Magic history? Odd meta shifts from patches/new card sets, as well as the even weirder solutions to them?
Now I have to go back and watch the series. I actually forgot you a Nony did commentary for that. This was easily one of the most epic moments in esports
I always loved how when Sean says "Supply Depot" it sounds like his saying "Supplidy Poh"
I'm going to love this video, I already know it
Nice breakdown, interesting side effect of the Zerg having a flying supply 'building'.
DUDE its been years since ive even seen Day9. Totally had forgotten about him lol glad youtube reconnected me lol
As someone who didn't play much Brood War competitively (outside of custom game bullshit), this was super insightful and a lot of fun to watch!
this video is so good, I keep coming back to it lmao
Thank you for this video Sean!
Great stuff - like that your back to starcraft!
Sean Plott talking about Starcaft. I guess I've found the first redeeming quality of 2020 :)
Hit me right in the feels. I’ve started watching Brood War since Day9 stopped covering StarCraft. Missed this. ❤️
You fakkin pansy.
The way you explain the amorphousness of Broodwar reminds me of magic. I know nothing of those other games you mention, but when you started talking about knowing what your opponent "should" be able to do based on their race, this really reminds me of playing magic and knowing what my opponent should be able to do based on their color.
For example, if someone said "but what if my blue opponent kills me on turn 4 with her strong creatures?" then I would similarly say something like "well something doesn't sound right here."
I'm feeling a lot of parallels.
Killing the Overlords sounds a bit like killing lands in MTG
I can't really think of an analog for the "weird" matchup though. I guess you could compare it to weird sideboard strategies in mtg. Like when non-blue decks started sideboarding Negates in Alara-Zendikar standard because Spreading Seas got popular as a way to fight the slightly janky 3 color mana-bases of the time
So happy this appeared to hear you talk starcraft!
1. One of the absolutely great things about the Zealot push is that it takes no gas. Your corsair army absolutely needs 2 gas to function so having a decent ground army that takes no gas is so powerful.
2. Zerg developed the hydra bust to exploit the lack of ground/ranged ground forces when the toss does the fast starport opening, many toss die to this at upper skill levels.
That doesn't sound weird at all, that sounds like an amazing strategy game actually!
Yeah, but non-intuitive
it is, and probably one of the best RTS games ever made
It definitely sounds ass-backwards.
@@fabi2k More like probably the best, not one of the best. :D
you forgot to mention that after corsair rush bisu did he followed with dark templars, and later this protoss build, known as "bisu build" would be countered by jaedong by simply doing scourge and anti air defense to counter both corsair and templars. even though these builds is still used today during mid game comes to a point where turns into a stalemate
14:21 No corsairs also means no stable defence versus mutalisk switch.
If you ever played SC original (no Broodwar exp), you'll know how much Protoss struggled agaisnt Zerg Air.
Love the throw back!
great nostalgia. please do one on how weird and charming firebathero was.
to quote Temp0: Thank God For Day[9]
Coming from Go, when people ask about dealing with situations that they shouldn't have gotten into, i find myself reminded of the advice that when you can't find a good move, you probably did something wrong a while ago and should try to figure out what and when that was instead.
God how I miss hearing Day9 talking about starcraft... It's so satisfying
I love these "meta" talks about games and how you can string the connections from one type of game to the next
Love you Day9, welcome back.
Day9 covering Starcraft? Is this an out of season April's Fools joke? It's a dream come true!
I love hearing him talk about things he cares about
This is sort of the same in some cases with starcraft 2 (pheonix adept builds) but i think what made the difference is corruptors are very hard for pheonix to deal with. I do love that would some changes and the introduction of the cyclone to terran that terran players started playing fast mech which is very similar to playing zerg.
Corruptors are a big part to why the meta for Zerg is so different in SC2 compared ton broodwar, I agree. Imagine broodwar if you only needed a spire to build straight up Devourers. That's kinda what SC2 started as.
I love this analytic deep dive into the history of iconic metas!
I remember watching all the Day[9] videos on starcraft 1 in high school so i could own all my friends when we played lolol. I miss this.
I don't play starcraft but I don't know why but youtube always shows me day9 when he talks about starcraft and then I listen to the entire thing!
More Broodwar!
Day9 been on this channel since brood war and beginning sc2.. This is dope..hahaha
u enjoyed this a lot and i wish there was more
How nice is it to feel day 9 talking about starcraft
We need more starcraft content from day9, fantastic to listen to. :) Thank you!
The more modern answer seems to be Zergs going for various hydra bust/pressure builds. It can kill them before corsairs hit efficient numbers, and forces the Protoss to build other things to avoid dying.
If you don't kill them, you still force a bunch of cannons, probably kill the forge and gate, and delay +1 attack, kill a bunch of zealots, and potentially the cyber core if they built it as part of the wall. You can still expand behind it and flow from a hydra contain to a lurker contain. The spire can be a backup if they somehow managed to build a lot of corsairs.
Omg day9 talking about starcraft again!
My dumb ass who didn't know about Starcraft thought there was a Plants vs. Zombies crossover.
Day9 is backto SC BW! good to see.. LEGEND!
came back to day9 after a few years. still got it.
I like this explanation. I never played Broodwar, I play SC2.
But I have to say, SC2 feels the same way. Like balancing on a needle and the tiniest push or error can snowball out of control towards absolute disaster.
Maybe I'm just spoiled by playing different games, but losing like this usually feels very frustrating.