Video starts at 32:00 when are you ever gonna learn anything from the chat. I agree with one guy in the chat, SCVs should go up one rank, they fit right in the middle between probes and drones and have some very niche uses like charging tanks and they don't die after building something even though they have to be there constructing, halfway between probe and drone.
@@vertexedgeface3141 Absolutely, sometimes you see something as a racial thing and don't really consider that part of the unit but you're totally right, mass repair is an amazing ability that should definitely bump up SCVs, they are so much better than Drones and not as good as probes, for them to be closer to Drones than Probes is absolutely wrong imo. Artosis said that he could be convinced to move stuff but that it's broadly correct and I agree.
Sci Vessels are S-tier. They are constantly killing high tier units for a spell and vital in TvZ and TvP. They cast EMP against arbiters. They counter so many of the spellcasters. They provide vision and detection, plus defense matrix is nice as well.
They only kill defilers (no one iraddiates high templars) with iraddiate and were it not so, zergs would crush terrans with dark swarm and plague since emp is nullified by consume. 2 cheap scourges insta kill a science vessel, feedback insta kills a vessel. Of course vessels have detection, otherwise terrans aftering using scans would need to build turrets everywhere the army is. Arbiters can easily dodge emps. Terrans need science vessels to survive.
Not S, but there is an argument for A. It gives enough overall utility in all match ups. Compare it to the other B units. Goliath, you'd rather not build unless you really need the anti-air. Where as if you can support the gas you will always have use for vessels. Even if it is just for detection and sight range for tanks. Arbiters are good, but you only need a few and more arbiters don't really increase their use. Vessels get better if you manage to retain their numbers. To the point where in TvZ, if Z can't kill them off and you get a high enough number, it is what wins you the game. The C tier marine and D tier medic can finish off a game with a high enough vessel count.
I can’t see S but I can totally see it going to A. E.M.P. and D-Matrix fucks up protoss. Also good for saving scans while keeping Obs/DT numbers low. I’m guessing Arty’s logic is It’s not used a lot in TvT, but I can see a future where people with enough AMP tanking tank shots with D-Matrix vultures or dropping a couple D-Matrix Vultures killing a whole mineral line as they tank shots.
I don’t think it matters too much. Most people in chat seemed to be considering “best case scenario” for units opposed to how good/useful the unit is within the context of the meta.
Protons probably doesn't have an S tier unit. Totally agreed. And vulture competes for best unit in game. He's so biased his list isn't much better then chats b
Did you guys not listen when he said you got to look at the whole game? The op protoss units vs t are trash vs zerg. If it was pvt there would be plenty of S tier p units.
@@yellow6100 I listened. And he judged protoss based on his own biases. And he under states how broken vultures are. Probes have issues on defense. Probe drills are hilariously worse then drone and scv drills. Templars are a necessity based on how bad protoss units are and are a liability. Slow, weak, and mess up pathing of dragoons and speedlots. Did he tank another one Stank? I stopped watching after he confirmed probes and Templar are s rank.
Dragoons are clunky and really don't have that high of DPS in and of themselves against most units. They're good as cannon fodder and useful to compliment the other protons units but are trash when they're alone. Definitely not A tier
It's protoss main unit because protosss have nothing else to fulfill generalist role, there is no stalkers with blink, no immortals with their insane damage, no collossus to deal with spam reliably. Dragoon is used because it's all there is, doesn't make dragoon a good unit
Dragoons are dummy thick and stupid to boot. There’s a reason why they’re also ways paired with Lots AND high tech splash, because they’re useless without other units.
S tier units are always good and cost effective. To me, a tier units are also good, you never don't want them, there aren't other units for the same price that you would want other than s tier. For that reason, dragoons aren't quite S tier. They're basically... Ok filler units. No one is pumped that they have 12 dragoons. They'll do.
'The Firebat, where does the Firebat go?' This kind of viewer interaction is identical to how kindergarten teachers teach their classes where penguins or bears live. (The correct answer, class, is 'the Zoo'.)
For sure- you can win games without ever making queen or dark archon, but ultra, and especially Corsair, have an essential role at a specific game phase in at least one match up. Maybe the real option is to push queen and dark archon down.
Artosis's logic seems to be solely based on how often each unit is used, which is a valid, but less interesting way to make a tier list. More interesting would be to analyze how well each unit does at its particular role, which could see some units go higher.
Yes it is based on how often units are used, and thats why drones are rank D. I mean they are shitty situational units, you dont even think about building or using them in any matchup.
Chats list was based on how strong the units were in their specific role. Arty’s list was based on how much each unit is used (which should make all 3 workers units S tier, according to him).
Nah he doesn't rank workers by how much they're used because you literally HAVE to use them in every game. Probe is S because it's tanky, heals itself, it's fast, and doesn't need to stick around or be consumed to build. Probes are extremely time efficient. SCV is not as time efficient but still better than the drone and they're built like a brick shithouse. Drones are slow, are consumed when building, and the least time efficient plus they're weaker in combat than Probes or SCVs.
Nah. It’s definitely by how good/powerful they are in the context of the meta/game phase. First couple minutes Probe is king. They outrange every tier one except Marines, they can build while doing other things, building blocks and offensive canons are something none of the other workers can AND they’re super nimble. Even just the way workers build shows the difference in strength. Probe stops for a sec, SCV spends the whole time there and Deong literally dies for you.
@@mee7er yes, the probe does all that, but this tier list idea is flawed. Arty wasnt basing units on how strong they are in specific moments, except the probe apparently. Some of these are S or A tier units in the right context. The science vessel is used in every single matchup to great effect, for example
If you're following the idea of how much is a unit used, look at the influence to the meta-game. If other races keep going air vs you, your anti-air is bad. If other races don't even try to use invisible units vs you, your detectors are good.
I don´t agree with Artosis. The Drone is better than he says. According to his own scheme, I would like to justify this as follows: Drone Drones appear in every matchup. They heal on their own. Can heal super fast if you briefly morph into a building and then demolish it again. They collect resources, build all the buildings, scout, dig in in case of danger and in skilled gamers hand they can fight well. So they are definitely more category "A" or "S"!
He put a lot of importance on the number of matchups. Like Corsairs are MU defining in PvZ, but you'll practically never see one in the other matchups. That's sorta where he's going with the Marine, and I can sorta stand behind this tier list for that reason. You also can't let the perception of what the Marine does in SC2 taint how you might perceive the Marine in BW, this is still a game where in a lot of matches, the Barracks is floating off scouting once the factories are online.
I mean Marines are literally only useful for like... the first 5 minutes of a TVZ. After that they're dead weight. You don't even really use them in other matchups.
I don't think you can rank a unit based solely on the fact that it is used in every match up and ignore the importance it has in one particular MU. S tier units are amazing in all match up, but some unit like the Hydralisk play an immense role in ZvP, so does Corsairs. Also, by that logic workers would all be S tier because they are mass produced in every match up. Makes no sense! Wraiths are always situational and not required in any match up, not the most popular or strong builds either. Also, we all agree Observers are bad, one of the worse detector in the game, yet they are a must used unit and see play almost every game, be it PvP, PvZ or PvT, so they should be at least A? I don't think so!
Ikr, putting Mutas in S teir even though their only usage outside of ZvZ is a narrow time frame before vessels come out and turrets come out in critical mass JUST to delay the Terran push in time to make a 3rd. I don’t think he realizes just how cost inefficient mutas are in combat even with extreme micro. Literally anything that can fight back other than hydras, scouts, wraiths and goliaths without range that aren’t tagged with plague or acid spores SLAUGHTER mutas cost for cost
@@mee7er they cost 75 minerals and come with 3 free nukes ...I mean spider mines lol- definitely the most cost effective unit in the game, but just S tier
And if it switches to gound attacks then it should only target a circular area while being stillstanding and it should shoot a beam that does a lot of singletarget damage
Literally the only unit that I disagreed with artosis on was the arbiter, it was very high A tier, damn near S tier because it is used in every match maybe not so much in pvp but yeah it has game ending abilities when it's out there.
I agree with pretty much everything on the list but the dragoon. It is used in all match ups. It is pretty strong in the PvT, very useful in PvZ, and pretty much the whole build in PvP. In my opinion, it is a clear S tier
My edits on Artosis' list Decreased: Probe S -> A Goliath B -> C Wraith C -> E Dark Archon D -> E Queen D -> E Firebat D -> E Increased: Science Vessel B -> A Marine C -> B Ultra D -> B Medic D -> C
@@amai2307 Because that means it's bad in the other 2 matchups. A unit that's good a third of the time and bad the other two thirds of the time is, and here's the key word, OVERALL not a good unit.
If zerg really had the best units they would be op, considering they have the best economy. But I think this was fair. Hydras and lurkers are what is holding zerg back imo. Zerg have the worst ranged units. Mutalisks can help, but they're a strategic unit, more like reavers, and are almost useless in big scale. This makes zerg vulnerable to mass ranged units like marines, tanks and dragoons. Defilers help against terran, but they're another strategic unit that isn't effective on a bigger scale. That's why they struggle against terran. ZvT is won with micro and multitasking.
would put valkyrie above sair, cuz they can shoot and scoot with control and you should see Larva's drone control. dude can literally move his drone and spit at the same time chasing workers.
Arty's list still seems like it has some problems. Corsair a tier below Wraith and Carrier just seems incorrect to me. I know corsair is only good in one matchup, but if you go back to the last ASL and count how many corsairs were built compared to how many wraiths and carriers were built, my guess is there were more corsairs built than the other two combined. The only unit on D tier that was probably built more would be medic, so I'd suggest medic and corsair to C-tier, carrier and wraith to d-tier. (This makes D-tier into situational units that you might not even see in any given game, and C tier into units that you will definitely see in one matchup). Dark Templar are not better than Dragoons. Like...if you told a protoss they had to play without DTs they'd be like "yeah, I think I can do that". If you told them they had to play without dragoons, they would not know what to do against T or P, and would need to either cheese against zerg, or hope that z never techs into lurkers. (Goons also seem pretty cleanly a tier above golaiths--If you try to mass golaiths against a good player, they will hit you with storm or other AoE cause goliaths have 125 HP. If you try to mass Dragoons against a good player...that works better, goons have 180 HP). I think there's even an argument that goons are better than zealots (better PvP slightly better PvT, worse PvZ) but close enough that both of them in A tier seems right. Dragoon to A tier, DT to B tier. Science Vessel should...probably be S tier. "It's not used in TvT", yeah, cool, and Defiler isn't used in ZvZ. I don't think not being used in the mirror matchup is enough to keep defiler out of S-tier, so the same should probably apply to Vessels. The fact that the easiest way to tell who's ahead in lategame TvZ is to literally ignore supply counts, ignore everything the zerg has, and look at the vessel count is the sign of...a pretty strong unit. And Vessels are still reasonably impactful in TvP too (mobile detection is handy, EMP vs spellcasters and shields, a counter to arbiter recalls). Arbiter on the other hand...I guess it's fine in B? Just...mostly good vs T. (In fact...Corsair might be more important PvZ than Arbiter is in PvT, but I suppose arbiter has enough relevance in other matchups to be a tier higher). Dropship two tiers below shuttle and overlord is weirding me out a bit. Used a lot in TvT and TvZ. Used occasionally in TvP. I agree it's worse than overlord and shuttle, but not two tiers worse. Dropship up to B. I'm a little skeptical of dark archon, battlecruiser, and queen as high as D. Maybe battlecruiser is fine cause of TvT, I will admit I am no up to speed with the lategame TvT meta right now. But Dark Archon and Queen seem similar to the valkyrie. Made very situationally in one matchup and typically only as a response to an unusual build. Maybe move those to E. (And then move Ghost to F). So after those changes: S: Zergling, Muta, Defiler, high templar, tank, vulture, probe, Science Vessel A: Overlord, Dragoon, Reaver, Zealot, Scourge, Shuttle B: Goliath, Dark Templar, Arbiter, Lurker, Dropship C: Corsair, Marine, Medic, Archon, Observer, SCV, Hydra D: Drone, Firebat, Wraith, Carrier, Battlecruiser, Ultralisk E: Guardian, Valkyrie, Queen, Dark Archon F: Ghost, Devourer, Scout FF: Broodling, infested terran Hmmm...ok, I'd like to move a unit out of S-tier cause it's too large, and I think the right candidate is probe. Yeah, scariest worker, but it'll still be two tiers higher than other workers in A tier. I also kinda want to swap Reaver and Lurker. Reavers are an optional tech that you could just choose not to get like DTs, but Zerg can't really play long games without lurkers. And...I feel like I want to put a little less weight on mirror matchups (same reason I'm ok with Defiler and Science Vessel in S tier) putting less weight on mirrors moves Battlecruiser down to E tier (all three "captial" units of ultra, BC and carrier are anti-T tech, but BCs are the only ones where if you deleted them from the game it wouldn't really change race balance much). After those changes the list looks like this: S: Zergling, Muta, Defiler, High Templar, Tank, Vulture, Science Vessel A: Probe, Overlord, Dragoon, Lurker, Zealot, Scourge, Shuttle B: Goliath, Dark Templar, Arbiter, Reaver, Dropship C: Corsair, Marine, Medic, Archon, Observer, SCV, Hydra D: Drone, Firebat, Wraith, Carrier, Ultralisk E: Guardian, Valkyrie, Queen, Dark Archon, Battlecruiser F: Ghost, Devourer, Scout FF: Broodling, infested terran
Your arguments for corsairs and dts are pretty flawed. Units built in ASL is simply not a good indicator (I bet you can count more zealots than science vessels for example). Saying you would take away a unit is obviously flawed too other wise all the workers would be S tier. I don't think Science Vessel is nearly as good as any of the other units in S tier. Corsair and medic probably should be D or E tier too (corsair is kind of a bad unit and it's used in PvZ more due to a zerg's weakness rather than it being good, I can't see Medics being on the same tier as Marines). I would probably move Hydras to B tier too.
Such a solid take; Aside from Reavers, they for sure belong in A, they are a staple of PvP and end game PvZ, and they are a fairly standard early midgame tech option in PvT that can still be relevant later in the matchup if retained. There is also the speed shuttle Reaver build in PvZ but that seems to have fallen out of popularity from what I can tell, presumably because of how volatile it can be and how dangerous the various hydra busts are.
I agree with your analysis more than Artosis's. I'm only uncomfortable with dragoon and zealot being in the same tier, I'd bump zealot to S tier. I think you are spot on noting that there are too many things in S tier, but that is also the feel I get from the game: it's not really balanced it just has many broken units.
@@firstnamelastname1749 "Saying you would take away a unit is obviously flawed too other wise all the workers would be S tier." You know, I've been thinking about that, and I think the way Artosis was talking about probes was their use outside of mining and building. Like using them as a scout, to gas steal, to cannon rush. So under that interpretation, "taking away" probes would mean that they would only be allowed to mine and build non-proxy buildings. No scouting. No building proxy buildings or stealing gas. No probe drilling to defend an all-in. Which...is certainly a pretty big limitation, but the game would still be playable. With that clarified a bit, maybe I underrated Drone and SCV a bit. (Something like SCV to B tier--pretty good for scouing, building turrets with tank pushes, repairing. Maybe even an argument for A tier for SCV. Drone to C-tier--drones don't do that much, but drone drilling to defend allins and the occasional drone scout are enough that zerg would be pretty uncomfortable playing without those things). "corsair is kind of a bad unit and it's used in PvZ more due to a zerg's weakness rather than it being good" Nah, corsair is an amazing unit. Like...it costs the same as the wraith but it has 60 more HP, builds way faster (tied for the fastest building protoss unit) and it's Medium armour so it takes 75% damage from nearly every attack that hits air (Mutas being small is what makes them so busted, because they take 50% damage from everything, Corsair's only Medium, but that's still pretty good). Sair's also tied for speed with the fastest flying units, and works with moving shot, though I believe the wraith is also tied for fastest, don't remember how effective wraith is at moving shots cause I don't see that many wraiths. Slightly less singletarget than a wraith, but the splash damage is quite good. Obviously sair's only good against air units, and only zerg builds air units, but it's fantastic against air. Just seems pretty clear Corsair should be above Wraith to me. If you want, I guess corsair could stay D-tier and Wraith could go to E? "I don't think Science Vessel is nearly as good as any of the other units in S tier." It's matchup defining in TvZ, the single most important unit (on either side) in that matchup. Vessel count is more important than Defiler count in that matchup, and that's arguably the best matchup for defilers. In TvP it's...pretty good? Like...Science Vessel is A tier for TvP probably? And then it's whatever for TvT. I'll admit this is not an easy one to place. Artosis is a pretty big TvT fan, so I understand why he placed it lower. But like I said, I chose to put less weight on the mirror matchups or I'd have to think about moving defiler out of S tier cause of how little it does in ZvZ. "I would probably move Hydras to B tier too." I'm skeptical, Hydras are a pretty so-so unit. They have 80 HP, which makes them very vulnerable to every AoE (storm, reavers, siege tanks). They're in the explosive damage club, so they deal half damage to mutalisks, and 75% damage to corsairs, the two air units they'd really like to be effective against. Also 50% damage to Zerglings and Marines and Medics which basically makes them pretty awful against the ground armies of two out of three matchups. Zerg's own dark swarm often ends up backfiring on hydras if melee units like zealots get under the dark swarm. Hydras just happen to be the only reasonable response Zerg has to corsairs, which means yes, you see them nearly every pro ZvP cause you see Corsairs nearly every ZvP. "I can't see Medics being on the same tier as Marines" I think it's pretty possible that a really well-made list would have a few units on the same tier even if one of those units was clearly a little ahead of the other. Like...I could potentially imagine a list where dropships and shuttles end up at B-tier. (Even though yes, Shuttles are certainly a better version of dropships). Marines do more than medics. They get put in bunkers basically every TvP so technically not a one matchup unit! But is it a full tier more? (And if it is a full tier more, does this really mean medics should be moved down a tier, or should marines be moved up a tier to B-tier?)
A real tier list should follow a bellcurve pattern. More than half of the units can't be above average. Overrated on Artosis list: Vulture, Probe, DT, Reaver, Goliath, Hydra, Drone Underrated on Artosis list: Corsair, Medic, Observer (chronic anti-support bias, but not too bad)
Sci vessel -> S tier (free insta-kill of any zerg unit / HT / DT, detector, EMP great vs protoss) Dragoon -> A tier (crucial in PvT and PvP, reasonable support unit in PvZ though weak to lings) BC -> C tier (it's more useful than you think - should be used more in all three matchups) Queen -> E tier (takes too long to charge energy to be useful)
You can't sneak in BCs against a Protoss that is playing a straight up pressure macro game, they either break in before you get enough tanks to defend or they get the mind control with dark archon. Even just mass goon is good against BCs. While Queen's energy cost is a lot, the fact it oneshots any organic ground unit makes it a direct counter against Terran Mech plays in TvZ.
Marine is minimum B, they are useable in TvP if you know what you are doing. Medics should at least be C tier as well because they are the supporting cast for any bio based army. Science Vessel is S tier for sure. I don't like the "ranked based on matchup use" way of ranking units. Corsairs and Battlecruisers should also be C as I think they are fairly underrated. Ghosts should move to D as I think they are a great end game stalemate breaker in at least 2 matchups and an underrated spellcaster. Valks and Ultras I think are arguably a tier higher because even if they are used in mostly 1 matchup, they are really good in the situations that call for them. I am very interested to see Scan's tier list. Thanks for the content Artosis.
For artosis list, Siege tank and vulture -> A, shuttle -> B and I think we're good. Shuttle cannot be at the same level as overlord, and should be lower
Queens are rather niche units, but they usually show up most frequently in ZvT. Mass queen transitions can absolutely annihilate siege tanks with spawn broodling (its 9 range is 1 greater than guardians and charon booster goliaths). Parasite is good on science vessels too and ensnare can take the punch out of marine+medic balls & decloak wraiths. Sometimes they show up in ZvP where broodlings are used to nuke high templar. they also *sometimes* show up in ZvZ when things hit a weird transition phase, ensnare (-50% movespeed and ~20% attack speed) can ruin mutalisks. Queens are just as fast as corsairs or scourge. Their issues are cost, research time and micro. Spawn broodling costs 150 energy, so you need to make queens and keep them alive and hidden for about 2mins 15 seconds to have them each spawn broodlings once.
I remember a time when magic box wasn't a thing and mutas weren't that great aside from island maps. Then they warped the entire metagame for the next like 20ish years.
Man these donations are so annoying, making this borderline unwatchable. Imagine paying money to get 5 seconds of attention and make a shitty joke that nobody cares about.
Anyone who thinks all workers are S tier can have a game with me and can bann any unit of mine as long as their workers are banned and lets see how it goes.
Good list. This are my changes Vessel -> A Valk -> D Ghost -> F Ultra -> C HT -> A Dragoon -> A Corsair -> C DA -> E Infested terrans were good vs protoss iirc, but maps with neutral cc are almost extint.
"what is used a lot = S tier" Bullshit. Artosis, that's not how tier lists work. What is strong, what gives huge impact on the game when used, what is hard to counter = S tier. ZvZ - ends so early that ultras can not be used, but that doesnt make em any less OP. Another example zealots used a lot, zealots used at many match ups, but it isnt hard to counter them and it isnt often that zealots decide the game, so it is a mistake to put them into A tier. Same shit with hydralisk - you cant fucking judge the unit by number of matchups you use this unit in.
Or at least be more consistent about it, because science vessels can absolutely win games in all 3 matchups and regularly in 2 of them. Yet somehow it’s not even an A rank unit because siege tanks pervert TvT power levels so much.
Completely agree with his list, not kidding. Probes being able to just lay down 10 cannons in 10 seconds gives Protoss an insane advantage in ease of play
@@jasonbonilla4915 I thought for a while. Yes, I guess, you are right. In terms of usability Dark Templars are closer to Marines, Goliaths and Lurkers, then to Wraiths, Ultras and Archons. Also feels like Cariers and BCs are both vT specialists with occasional use in vZ, so I demoted the Carrier a bit.
Ok honestly, the tier list corresponding to a units use frequency in all matchups is a bad idea. When a unit so strongly counters another unit, you will see none of them in a matchup, but obviously one unit is still very strong. Like we dont see reavers in PvT, except for really early game, because it shuts down terran bio so hard. Also some units may not be used in all matchups, but that does not explain how strong they are, since they can be trash in 2 matchups but be ridiculously strong in one and that alone makes them a great unit. Ultras and corsairs are definitely not D rank units. Same with medics, but there was also a remark where he said medics are lower because they are support units. Just because something is a support unit, does not mean it is not ridiculously strong. Sentries in Sc2:WoL were support units and they were definitely S tier. You dont evaluate a units prowess by thinking how they contribute when massed, you evaluate it comparing an army with and without them. Finally overlord is not an A unit. Sure it has some great strengths, but it is at the same time a great vulnerability. No terran and protoss will ever lose games because they dont have anti air and their opponents have AA fliers.
I mean you're free to make your own tier list based on the units utility in general and not just based on matchups. He is at least consistent throughout the list, which is really the only thing that matters.
@@DarkLeviathan8 I dont think he is consistent. He does not list things on purely frequency of use in all matchups. He also adds unit strength in an implicit manner. If he was doing a use frequency list, then High Templars should not be S tier, as they are not used in every matchup always, but zealots should be S tier since they literally are used in every matchup vs every composition. Actually a frequency list skews things massively towards basic units. Anyways he switches from being strong and use frequency quite arbitrarily when listing. First I thought he lists them according to frequency and then he ranks the most frequent ones with strength. So S-B are frequent and are ranked for their strength and the rest are ranked for their frequency. But then it makes zero sense to put queens and corsairs in the same spot. Corsairs are always used in PvZ whereas queens are not consistent in any matchup
wow by putting Vulture which is absolutelly name of the game in A instead of S Artosis you totally ignored all S from chat and just went with your own little game to feel oppressed and underpowered terran playing against odds. Sure it did end up in S ... but even questioning this is poor joke. Vulture is by far most cost effective and deadly unit in this game. Going at only 75 minerals (aka 3 lings or ling and marine) it delivers insane value ranging from GOD tier harrasment to provide beyond S tier value in mines that persist even through dead of said vulture. Not to mention it is so absurdally fast that you can on spot send them and intercept moving drones/probes across the map with little to no consequences as it is so dirty cheap. And lets not even forget that for shockingly low cost it deals gigantic damage especially to small targets but to big ones and building aswell as long as they have shield at 20+6.
People are confusing GOOD with NECESSARY. Science vessels are often NECESSARY but that doesnt mean they dont have big flaws. Similar with vultures: useless without mines, but half the time they are NECESSARY for terran to survive. With mines they are probably A but not S. Overlords are kind of amazing when compared to how P and T supply. A-teir. When comparing workers is cool but drones are better than SCVs by a mile AND probes are better than both the others by a mile.
The corsair being on same tier as queen is wrong. Even if corsair is only used in one matchup, it's so powerful in that matchup that it should be at least C or B tier.
Personaly I would move the Carrier to D tier and bump the Corsair and the Ultralisk to C tier Those two are only used in 1 match up, but its the most crucial in that match up At least the Corsair...I mean there is no way the Corsair is at the same tier with the Dark Archon and the Firebat....
Not a bad Tier list at all, but Valks and Guardians are certainly better than Arty’s E rank. To be fair, he did this list before he personally started using Valks more (albeit with iffy micro), and before Guardians started entering the meta more (now there’s actual ‘Guardian rushes’ of a sort- and they work 😳 ).
Observers don't have shit on Overlords. Observers are fragile, easily sniped if seen and slow without upgrades... and they're in a race without much detection they also require their own special production tech. Overlords are durable, cheap, built anyways, have no tech tree requirement, don't cost supply and also function to facilitate drops. Being invisible by default isn't a big upside when your opponents have better and more convenient detection. You should check some of the recent PvZ meta on certain maps where lurker+hydra just *slaughters* protoss if they have the high ground.
@@Syfa Except there are always counters to all units and and that includes overlords being massacred by marines, corsairs and dragoons specially if they're not upgraded. I'm not even saying observers are better than overlords. Also their invisibility can be so undetected because they don't really attack. They can stay in one position and players can often be unaware it's there. And sometimes their colors blends in the background like camouflage despite being detected.
Observers are basically the worst detection in the game. Unlike scans and overlords, they cost supply. Unlike science vessel they don't have any good support abilities. Yet you're paying 75 gas per observer. To make matters worse they require their own tech structure. The only reason toss use them is because they're the only mobile detection they have.
@@taragnor if you successfully put on observed in your opponents base, you can see what they're doing the whole time without them noticing and also, its 25 minerals makes up for the 75 gas. And what about the science vessels having 225 gas? I mean obviously they are used as spell casters more than detectors but if you use them as detectors alone, they would be the worst.
@@alexfriedman2047 Its one of the main reasons why I choose Zerg as my go to race when I used to play Starcraft online. Plus, they were the only Starcraft race I was good at playing with, they have the best units.
@@LordMalice6d9 Terran units are good a f too. I play protoss because I always played Protoss but Protoss units suck. None of their Units are S rank lol. HT and Arb are pretty good though. I play a lot of SC1 but I'm only like 1800 MMR. Not 2100 or whatever Artosis is.
@@alexfriedman2047 Protoss units are very mixed bag. Protoss have at least 3 units I would say definitely qualify as A tier units at most, maybe S. High Templar, probe and Zealot.
common Arty.....they were ranking based on the first letter of the unit......Dark Archon - D ..... if the unit had a first letter that is not withn S and FF they used the second letter :D its just trolling
Have to agree: I want to see a comparison with Scan's list xD
Scan also said probe is S-tier
It was COMPLETELY different :)
Video starts at 32:00 when are you ever gonna learn anything from the chat.
I agree with one guy in the chat, SCVs should go up one rank, they fit right in the middle between probes and drones and have some very niche uses like charging tanks and they don't die after building something even though they have to be there constructing, halfway between probe and drone.
also mass repair on a unit in a hold or die situation
I remember some flash-induced thread whining about SCVs being broken due to the extra hp, so I was surprised to see them ranked so low.
@@vertexedgeface3141 Absolutely, sometimes you see something as a racial thing and don't really consider that part of the unit but you're totally right, mass repair is an amazing ability that should definitely bump up SCVs, they are so much better than Drones and not as good as probes, for them to be closer to Drones than Probes is absolutely wrong imo. Artosis said that he could be convinced to move stuff but that it's broadly correct and I agree.
chat's idea of high tier is seeing how they work in mass on fastest possible map lmao
By "artosis logic" SCV is SSS tier, it used a lot in any match up and in any situation, regardless of who is your opponent or what is he doing.
Sci Vessels are S-tier. They are constantly killing high tier units for a spell and vital in TvZ and TvP. They cast EMP against arbiters. They counter so many of the spellcasters. They provide vision and detection, plus defense matrix is nice as well.
But you forgot the fact it is a terran unit.. and terran is trash for arty! hahaha
They only kill defilers (no one iraddiates high templars) with iraddiate and were it not so, zergs would crush terrans with dark swarm and plague since emp is nullified by consume. 2 cheap scourges insta kill a science vessel, feedback insta kills a vessel. Of course vessels have detection, otherwise terrans aftering using scans would need to build turrets everywhere the army is. Arbiters can easily dodge emps. Terrans need science vessels to survive.
@@hukllankanchis1575 People definitely irradiate HTs if they catch HTs out in the open.
Not S, but there is an argument for A. It gives enough overall utility in all match ups. Compare it to the other B units.
Goliath, you'd rather not build unless you really need the anti-air. Where as if you can support the gas you will always have use for vessels. Even if it is just for detection and sight range for tanks.
Arbiters are good, but you only need a few and more arbiters don't really increase their use. Vessels get better if you manage to retain their numbers. To the point where in TvZ, if Z can't kill them off and you get a high enough number, it is what wins you the game. The C tier marine and D tier medic can finish off a game with a high enough vessel count.
I can’t see S but I can totally see it going to A. E.M.P. and D-Matrix fucks up protoss. Also good for saving scans while keeping Obs/DT numbers low.
I’m guessing Arty’s logic is It’s not used a lot in TvT, but I can see a future where people with enough AMP tanking tank shots with D-Matrix vultures or dropping a couple D-Matrix Vultures killing a whole mineral line as they tank shots.
32:00 to see his own tier list
Thank you
Thank you.
Nukes are technically considered units, they take up 8 supply. They're basically 8 infested terrans raining from the sky at 25% of the cost.
This video makes me imagine parents with young children who have starcraft themed toys. "Next one is the firebat. Where does the firebat go?"
lol
It goes in the square hole
Artosis really should use an actual polling system for this, seems like people can spam their vote and skew the results
Yeah he did it for the sc2 units.
I don't think it made much difference anyway.
I don’t think it matters too much. Most people in chat seemed to be considering “best case scenario” for units opposed to how good/useful the unit is within the context of the meta.
Whatever, he is doing for the lolz anyway
Hydra deserved to be much higher.
yeah and then he can kinda average it.
Kind of weird how he just put all of the Protoss units into tier S, started crying and then ran off camera.
Protons probably doesn't have an S tier unit. Totally agreed. And vulture competes for best unit in game. He's so biased his list isn't much better then chats b
Did you guys not listen when he said you got to look at the whole game? The op protoss units vs t are trash vs zerg. If it was pvt there would be plenty of S tier p units.
@@yellow6100 I listened. And he judged protoss based on his own biases. And he under states how broken vultures are.
Probes have issues on defense. Probe drills are hilariously worse then drone and scv drills. Templars are a necessity based on how bad protoss units are and are a liability. Slow, weak, and mess up pathing of dragoons and speedlots.
Did he tank another one Stank? I stopped watching after he confirmed probes and Templar are s rank.
Are you wasted? He put 3 zerg units, two terran units and the high templar in S-tier
@@hukllankanchis1575 I said Probe and High templar. I disagree with both. I stopped watching after that. ARE YOU WASTED?
Wow! I made this tier list a long time ago and never expected anyone to actually use it. This definitely made my week.
I've had a lot of fun with it. Thanks for sharing, have a good one!
Flash wouldn't have ranked science vessel B
35:05 That donation is freaking hilarious
no one really cared about your dono
god i keep forgetting that psi storm is only 75 energy
Dragoon is an A tier unit. Used in every match up. Is the main unit in PvP and PvT
I think dragoons AI is holding it back from being A tier
Dragoons are clunky and really don't have that high of DPS in and of themselves against most units. They're good as cannon fodder and useful to compliment the other protons units but are trash when they're alone. Definitely not A tier
It's protoss main unit because protosss have nothing else to fulfill generalist role, there is no stalkers with blink, no immortals with their insane damage, no collossus to deal with spam reliably. Dragoon is used because it's all there is, doesn't make dragoon a good unit
Dragoons are dummy thick and stupid to boot. There’s a reason why they’re also ways paired with Lots AND high tech splash, because they’re useless without other units.
S tier units are always good and cost effective. To me, a tier units are also good, you never don't want them, there aren't other units for the same price that you would want other than s tier. For that reason, dragoons aren't quite S tier. They're basically... Ok filler units. No one is pumped that they have 12 dragoons. They'll do.
He looks way healthier than a year ago, keep your head up :)
34:39 Artosis moves the most dangerous unit in the entire game into S-tier (the probe).
Super joke. It's B rank at best.
'The Firebat, where does the Firebat go?'
This kind of viewer interaction is identical to how kindergarten teachers teach their classes where penguins or bears live. (The correct answer, class, is 'the Zoo'.)
No way queen and dark archon are in same tier as corsair and ultra.
For sure- you can win games without ever making queen or dark archon, but ultra, and especially Corsair, have an essential role at a specific game phase in at least one match up. Maybe the real option is to push queen and dark archon down.
@@Materialist39
Yeah that's what I'm saying. Move them down one tier.
Drone, AKA "I have to kill myself to make a garbage creep colony omegalul"
Z tier.
I wish creep colonies had the nydus canal ability to make other creep colonies, woukd save a ton of drones and zerg woukd be able to defend itself
Artosis's logic seems to be solely based on how often each unit is used, which is a valid, but less interesting way to make a tier list. More interesting would be to analyze how well each unit does at its particular role, which could see some units go higher.
Yes it is based on how often units are used, and thats why drones are rank D. I mean they are shitty situational units, you dont even think about building or using them in any matchup.
Queen like E to me, extremely rare in pro gamer match up (mostly exhibition matches). SC2 really fixed queen good.
mostly they are used against terran to insta kill tanks with broodlings
I think its safe to say sc2 queen is a different unit... The only similarity they have is the name
Muta is definitely the best unit for sure. Brood war units were designed as an answer just for that one unit.
Chats list was based on how strong the units were in their specific role.
Arty’s list was based on how much each unit is used (which should make all 3 workers units S tier, according to him).
Workers should be ranked individually probe best, then scv and drone
Nah he doesn't rank workers by how much they're used because you literally HAVE to use them in every game. Probe is S because it's tanky, heals itself, it's fast, and doesn't need to stick around or be consumed to build. Probes are extremely time efficient. SCV is not as time efficient but still better than the drone and they're built like a brick shithouse. Drones are slow, are consumed when building, and the least time efficient plus they're weaker in combat than Probes or SCVs.
Nah. It’s definitely by how good/powerful they are in the context of the meta/game phase.
First couple minutes Probe is king. They outrange every tier one except Marines, they can build while doing other things, building blocks and offensive canons are something none of the other workers can AND they’re super nimble.
Even just the way workers build shows the difference in strength. Probe stops for a sec, SCV spends the whole time there and Deong literally dies for you.
@@mee7er yes, the probe does all that, but this tier list idea is flawed. Arty wasnt basing units on how strong they are in specific moments, except the probe apparently.
Some of these are S or A tier units in the right context. The science vessel is used in every single matchup to great effect, for example
@@skykur but science vessel is terran unit, and terrans cant live without whine.
If you're following the idea of how much is a unit used, look at the influence to the meta-game. If other races keep going air vs you, your anti-air is bad. If other races don't even try to use invisible units vs you, your detectors are good.
Yeah and the works are always S tier cause you always make lots of them. Not really a great way to measure a units strength.
I don´t agree with Artosis. The Drone is better than he says. According to his own scheme, I would like to justify this as follows: Drone
Drones appear in every matchup. They heal on their own. Can heal super fast if you briefly morph into a building and then demolish it again. They collect resources, build all the buildings, scout, dig in in case of danger and in skilled gamers hand they can fight well. So they are definitely more category "A" or "S"!
It's cool I'm sure they'll fix scouts in the next balance patch
I think marines should be at least A for the sheer pressure they can put on a zerg army. Stim and range are scary upgrades man :D
He put a lot of importance on the number of matchups. Like Corsairs are MU defining in PvZ, but you'll practically never see one in the other matchups. That's sorta where he's going with the Marine, and I can sorta stand behind this tier list for that reason. You also can't let the perception of what the Marine does in SC2 taint how you might perceive the Marine in BW, this is still a game where in a lot of matches, the Barracks is floating off scouting once the factories are online.
@@Furycrab Yes I'm talking about broodwar :D I can't count the times I have been owned by bio pushes. Sure I'm a terrible starcraft player but anyway.
I mean Marines are literally only useful for like... the first 5 minutes of a TVZ. After that they're dead weight. You don't even really use them in other matchups.
@@danlorett2184 huh.. What if zerg goes mutas. But ya same reason he didnt put ultras higher. Onlyome matchup.
@@danlorett2184 You biased against marines
do muta's really beat BC? That's insane. It's really hard to rank support units vs main army units.
Please upload Scans response to your tier list and get him to make one too!
Thankyou for uploading this!
Funny how he moved Ultralisk down to D at the end but his bio ball games are getting thrashed by them
I don't think you can rank a unit based solely on the fact that it is used in every match up and ignore the importance it has in one particular MU. S tier units are amazing in all match up, but some unit like the Hydralisk play an immense role in ZvP, so does Corsairs. Also, by that logic workers would all be S tier because they are mass produced in every match up. Makes no sense! Wraiths are always situational and not required in any match up, not the most popular or strong builds either. Also, we all agree Observers are bad, one of the worse detector in the game, yet they are a must used unit and see play almost every game, be it PvP, PvZ or PvT, so they should be at least A? I don't think so!
Chat made the List with Terran Glasses on. Arti with knowledge
Ikr, putting Mutas in S teir even though their only usage outside of ZvZ is a narrow time frame before vessels come out and turrets come out in critical mass JUST to delay the Terran push in time to make a 3rd.
I don’t think he realizes just how cost inefficient mutas are in combat even with extreme micro. Literally anything that can fight back other than hydras, scouts, wraiths and goliaths without range that aren’t tagged with plague or acid spores SLAUGHTER mutas cost for cost
Science Vessel is auto S tier. Not only do you get it in every matchup but the primary spell is different in each one. Think about how crazy that is.
Vultures are the best unit in the game, they need their own S+ tier.
But they lose to sim city and don’t deal any damage to any armored units.
@@mee7er they cost 75 minerals and come with 3 free nukes ...I mean spider mines lol- definitely the most cost effective unit in the game, but just S tier
Protoss Scout and Zerg Guardian need a buff
Devourer, Dark Archon and Valkyrie need a tiny buff
Valks are fine.
@@phaenon4217 Valks need a ground attack.
Valks should have a mode where it switches from attacking air and attacking ground
And if it switches to gound attacks then it should only target a circular area while being stillstanding and it should shoot a beam that does a lot of singletarget damage
Keep your hands off BW
Literally the only unit that I disagreed with artosis on was the arbiter, it was very high A tier, damn near S tier because it is used in every match maybe not so much in pvp but yeah it has game ending abilities when it's out there.
Why are drones considered bad, being sacrificed to build?
I agree with pretty much everything on the list but the dragoon. It is used in all match ups. It is pretty strong in the PvT, very useful in PvZ, and pretty much the whole build in PvP. In my opinion, it is a clear S tier
if the sole criteria were "viability", then yeah probably
Thank you Artosis for putting me into the right tier ;)
a spell tier list would be awesome!
My edits on Artosis' list
Decreased:
Probe S -> A
Goliath B -> C
Wraith C -> E
Dark Archon D -> E
Queen D -> E
Firebat D -> E
Increased:
Science Vessel B -> A
Marine C -> B
Ultra D -> B
Medic D -> C
Plot twist: this was just another platform for Artosis to complain about zerg
Considering how often Zerg dies to A-move Marine+Medic in the early TvZ they should both be one rank higher
"early TvZ"
You can't say a unit is really good if it's only really good in one match up.
@@abstractdaddy1384 why?
@@amai2307
Because that means it's bad in the other 2 matchups.
A unit that's good a third of the time and bad the other two thirds of the time is, and here's the key word, OVERALL not a good unit.
Im watching this just because I know there's gonna be salt towards the protoss
If zerg really had the best units they would be op, considering they have the best economy.
But I think this was fair. Hydras and lurkers are what is holding zerg back imo. Zerg have the worst ranged units. Mutalisks can help, but they're a strategic unit, more like reavers, and are almost useless in big scale. This makes zerg vulnerable to mass ranged units like marines, tanks and dragoons. Defilers help against terran, but they're another strategic unit that isn't effective on a bigger scale. That's why they struggle against terran. ZvT is won with micro and multitasking.
Oh yeah ranking for broodwar?! And with Artosis! Cool!
was waiting for the bit about the probe, great video
DT higher than lurker doesn't seem right
One of the guys in chat wrote confirmation bias. I was thinking the same thing
«How commonly a unit used in the game» tier list instead of «How overall useful the unit is» tier list
I feel like the carrier and ultra should be on the same tier, one match up late game power unit
would put valkyrie above sair, cuz they can shoot and scoot with control and you should see Larva's drone control. dude can literally move his drone and spit at the same time chasing workers.
If Dark Archons were invisible would they be playable?
For some reason, I put a marine at S rank because of how cheap and basic it is, a large number of them could be terrifying.
InControl moved the Queens of the Zerg to S tier automatically.
35 mins of waiting for chat to fill in the chart and then 5 minutes of going over a few units lol
yeah I wasnt a fan of how this was made either lol I just skipped to arty's actual list.
But then you miss the donation messages :D
I like Artosis's list actually.
I wonder what Scan thinks about the list however.
Hydra in C is a joke. They dont cost anything. B or A
The unit-based donations were hilarious
What's a vulkry?
seeing arty's tier list illuminates quite clearly why he loses every other game
Care to elaborate? Genuinely curious.
Share your genius with us progamer
Arty's list still seems like it has some problems.
Corsair a tier below Wraith and Carrier just seems incorrect to me. I know corsair is only good in one matchup, but if you go back to the last ASL and count how many corsairs were built compared to how many wraiths and carriers were built, my guess is there were more corsairs built than the other two combined. The only unit on D tier that was probably built more would be medic, so I'd suggest medic and corsair to C-tier, carrier and wraith to d-tier. (This makes D-tier into situational units that you might not even see in any given game, and C tier into units that you will definitely see in one matchup).
Dark Templar are not better than Dragoons. Like...if you told a protoss they had to play without DTs they'd be like "yeah, I think I can do that". If you told them they had to play without dragoons, they would not know what to do against T or P, and would need to either cheese against zerg, or hope that z never techs into lurkers. (Goons also seem pretty cleanly a tier above golaiths--If you try to mass golaiths against a good player, they will hit you with storm or other AoE cause goliaths have 125 HP. If you try to mass Dragoons against a good player...that works better, goons have 180 HP). I think there's even an argument that goons are better than zealots (better PvP slightly better PvT, worse PvZ) but close enough that both of them in A tier seems right. Dragoon to A tier, DT to B tier.
Science Vessel should...probably be S tier. "It's not used in TvT", yeah, cool, and Defiler isn't used in ZvZ. I don't think not being used in the mirror matchup is enough to keep defiler out of S-tier, so the same should probably apply to Vessels. The fact that the easiest way to tell who's ahead in lategame TvZ is to literally ignore supply counts, ignore everything the zerg has, and look at the vessel count is the sign of...a pretty strong unit. And Vessels are still reasonably impactful in TvP too (mobile detection is handy, EMP vs spellcasters and shields, a counter to arbiter recalls).
Arbiter on the other hand...I guess it's fine in B? Just...mostly good vs T. (In fact...Corsair might be more important PvZ than Arbiter is in PvT, but I suppose arbiter has enough relevance in other matchups to be a tier higher).
Dropship two tiers below shuttle and overlord is weirding me out a bit. Used a lot in TvT and TvZ. Used occasionally in TvP. I agree it's worse than overlord and shuttle, but not two tiers worse. Dropship up to B.
I'm a little skeptical of dark archon, battlecruiser, and queen as high as D. Maybe battlecruiser is fine cause of TvT, I will admit I am no up to speed with the lategame TvT meta right now. But Dark Archon and Queen seem similar to the valkyrie. Made very situationally in one matchup and typically only as a response to an unusual build. Maybe move those to E. (And then move Ghost to F).
So after those changes:
S: Zergling, Muta, Defiler, high templar, tank, vulture, probe, Science Vessel
A: Overlord, Dragoon, Reaver, Zealot, Scourge, Shuttle
B: Goliath, Dark Templar, Arbiter, Lurker, Dropship
C: Corsair, Marine, Medic, Archon, Observer, SCV, Hydra
D: Drone, Firebat, Wraith, Carrier, Battlecruiser, Ultralisk
E: Guardian, Valkyrie, Queen, Dark Archon
F: Ghost, Devourer, Scout
FF: Broodling, infested terran
Hmmm...ok, I'd like to move a unit out of S-tier cause it's too large, and I think the right candidate is probe. Yeah, scariest worker, but it'll still be two tiers higher than other workers in A tier. I also kinda want to swap Reaver and Lurker. Reavers are an optional tech that you could just choose not to get like DTs, but Zerg can't really play long games without lurkers. And...I feel like I want to put a little less weight on mirror matchups (same reason I'm ok with Defiler and Science Vessel in S tier) putting less weight on mirrors moves Battlecruiser down to E tier (all three "captial" units of ultra, BC and carrier are anti-T tech, but BCs are the only ones where if you deleted them from the game it wouldn't really change race balance much).
After those changes the list looks like this:
S: Zergling, Muta, Defiler, High Templar, Tank, Vulture, Science Vessel
A: Probe, Overlord, Dragoon, Lurker, Zealot, Scourge, Shuttle
B: Goliath, Dark Templar, Arbiter, Reaver, Dropship
C: Corsair, Marine, Medic, Archon, Observer, SCV, Hydra
D: Drone, Firebat, Wraith, Carrier, Ultralisk
E: Guardian, Valkyrie, Queen, Dark Archon, Battlecruiser
F: Ghost, Devourer, Scout
FF: Broodling, infested terran
Your arguments for corsairs and dts are pretty flawed. Units built in ASL is simply not a good indicator (I bet you can count more zealots than science vessels for example). Saying you would take away a unit is obviously flawed too other wise all the workers would be S tier. I don't think Science Vessel is nearly as good as any of the other units in S tier. Corsair and medic probably should be D or E tier too (corsair is kind of a bad unit and it's used in PvZ more due to a zerg's weakness rather than it being good, I can't see Medics being on the same tier as Marines). I would probably move Hydras to B tier too.
Such a solid take; Aside from Reavers, they for sure belong in A, they are a staple of PvP and end game PvZ, and they are a fairly standard early midgame tech option in PvT that can still be relevant later in the matchup if retained. There is also the speed shuttle Reaver build in PvZ but that seems to have fallen out of popularity from what I can tell, presumably because of how volatile it can be and how dangerous the various hydra busts are.
I agree with your analysis more than Artosis's. I'm only uncomfortable with dragoon and zealot being in the same tier, I'd bump zealot to S tier. I think you are spot on noting that there are too many things in S tier, but that is also the feel I get from the game: it's not really balanced it just has many broken units.
@@moralessanchezoscarelias6412 "Zealot to S tier" WTF
@@firstnamelastname1749 "Saying you would take away a unit is obviously flawed too other wise all the workers would be S tier."
You know, I've been thinking about that, and I think the way Artosis was talking about probes was their use outside of mining and building. Like using them as a scout, to gas steal, to cannon rush. So under that interpretation, "taking away" probes would mean that they would only be allowed to mine and build non-proxy buildings. No scouting. No building proxy buildings or stealing gas. No probe drilling to defend an all-in. Which...is certainly a pretty big limitation, but the game would still be playable.
With that clarified a bit, maybe I underrated Drone and SCV a bit. (Something like SCV to B tier--pretty good for scouing, building turrets with tank pushes, repairing. Maybe even an argument for A tier for SCV. Drone to C-tier--drones don't do that much, but drone drilling to defend allins and the occasional drone scout are enough that zerg would be pretty uncomfortable playing without those things).
"corsair is kind of a bad unit and it's used in PvZ more due to a zerg's weakness rather than it being good"
Nah, corsair is an amazing unit. Like...it costs the same as the wraith but it has 60 more HP, builds way faster (tied for the fastest building protoss unit) and it's Medium armour so it takes 75% damage from nearly every attack that hits air (Mutas being small is what makes them so busted, because they take 50% damage from everything, Corsair's only Medium, but that's still pretty good). Sair's also tied for speed with the fastest flying units, and works with moving shot, though I believe the wraith is also tied for fastest, don't remember how effective wraith is at moving shots cause I don't see that many wraiths. Slightly less singletarget than a wraith, but the splash damage is quite good. Obviously sair's only good against air units, and only zerg builds air units, but it's fantastic against air.
Just seems pretty clear Corsair should be above Wraith to me. If you want, I guess corsair could stay D-tier and Wraith could go to E?
"I don't think Science Vessel is nearly as good as any of the other units in S tier."
It's matchup defining in TvZ, the single most important unit (on either side) in that matchup. Vessel count is more important than Defiler count in that matchup, and that's arguably the best matchup for defilers. In TvP it's...pretty good? Like...Science Vessel is A tier for TvP probably? And then it's whatever for TvT.
I'll admit this is not an easy one to place. Artosis is a pretty big TvT fan, so I understand why he placed it lower. But like I said, I chose to put less weight on the mirror matchups or I'd have to think about moving defiler out of S tier cause of how little it does in ZvZ.
"I would probably move Hydras to B tier too."
I'm skeptical, Hydras are a pretty so-so unit. They have 80 HP, which makes them very vulnerable to every AoE (storm, reavers, siege tanks). They're in the explosive damage club, so they deal half damage to mutalisks, and 75% damage to corsairs, the two air units they'd really like to be effective against. Also 50% damage to Zerglings and Marines and Medics which basically makes them pretty awful against the ground armies of two out of three matchups. Zerg's own dark swarm often ends up backfiring on hydras if melee units like zealots get under the dark swarm. Hydras just happen to be the only reasonable response Zerg has to corsairs, which means yes, you see them nearly every pro ZvP cause you see Corsairs nearly every ZvP.
"I can't see Medics being on the same tier as Marines"
I think it's pretty possible that a really well-made list would have a few units on the same tier even if one of those units was clearly a little ahead of the other. Like...I could potentially imagine a list where dropships and shuttles end up at B-tier. (Even though yes, Shuttles are certainly a better version of dropships).
Marines do more than medics. They get put in bunkers basically every TvP so technically not a one matchup unit! But is it a full tier more? (And if it is a full tier more, does this really mean medics should be moved down a tier, or should marines be moved up a tier to B-tier?)
A real tier list should follow a bellcurve pattern. More than half of the units can't be above average.
Overrated on Artosis list: Vulture, Probe, DT, Reaver, Goliath, Hydra, Drone
Underrated on Artosis list: Corsair, Medic, Observer (chronic anti-support bias, but not too bad)
Sci vessel -> S tier (free insta-kill of any zerg unit / HT / DT, detector, EMP great vs protoss)
Dragoon -> A tier (crucial in PvT and PvP, reasonable support unit in PvZ though weak to lings)
BC -> C tier (it's more useful than you think - should be used more in all three matchups)
Queen -> E tier (takes too long to charge energy to be useful)
You can't sneak in BCs against a Protoss that is playing a straight up pressure macro game, they either break in before you get enough tanks to defend or they get the mind control with dark archon. Even just mass goon is good against BCs.
While Queen's energy cost is a lot, the fact it oneshots any organic ground unit makes it a direct counter against Terran Mech plays in TvZ.
Marine is minimum B, they are useable in TvP if you know what you are doing. Medics should at least be C tier as well because they are the supporting cast for any bio based army. Science Vessel is S tier for sure. I don't like the "ranked based on matchup use" way of ranking units. Corsairs and Battlecruisers should also be C as I think they are fairly underrated. Ghosts should move to D as I think they are a great end game stalemate breaker in at least 2 matchups and an underrated spellcaster. Valks and Ultras I think are arguably a tier higher because even if they are used in mostly 1 matchup, they are really good in the situations that call for them. I am very interested to see Scan's tier list. Thanks for the content Artosis.
The S Tier should include his pylon
For artosis list, Siege tank and vulture -> A, shuttle -> B and I think we're good. Shuttle cannot be at the same level as overlord, and should be lower
Firebat going straight to S tier after Light vs Mini.
this will be an epic watch. Muta are going into SSS tier. Every else is inferior to the Muta. Even the mighty arbiter ain’t got shit on the Muta.
Have watched Artosis a long time and never ever have I seen anyone use a Queen. So which matchup is this used on?
Queens are rather niche units, but they usually show up most frequently in ZvT. Mass queen transitions can absolutely annihilate siege tanks with spawn broodling (its 9 range is 1 greater than guardians and charon booster goliaths). Parasite is good on science vessels too and ensnare can take the punch out of marine+medic balls & decloak wraiths. Sometimes they show up in ZvP where broodlings are used to nuke high templar. they also *sometimes* show up in ZvZ when things hit a weird transition phase, ensnare (-50% movespeed and ~20% attack speed) can ruin mutalisks. Queens are just as fast as corsairs or scourge.
Their issues are cost, research time and micro. Spawn broodling costs 150 energy, so you need to make queens and keep them alive and hidden for about 2mins 15 seconds to have them each spawn broodlings once.
Hydra is not C. Just because its not used in zvz and it deals half damage to marines and mutas, doesnt mean its c. It might be best unit in game
I would agree that it is the best all around a move unit in. The game
I remember a time when magic box wasn't a thing and mutas weren't that great aside from island maps.
Then they warped the entire metagame for the next like 20ish years.
Man these donations are so annoying, making this borderline unwatchable. Imagine paying money to get 5 seconds of attention and make a shitty joke that nobody cares about.
Anyone who thinks all workers are S tier can have a game with me and can bann any unit of mine as long as their workers are banned and lets see how it goes.
Us Koreans would agree there should be a new tier called Vulture
Funny looking back now because Valkyries are literally WRECKING asl.
Good list. This are my changes
Vessel -> A
Valk -> D
Ghost -> F
Ultra -> C
HT -> A
Dragoon -> A
Corsair -> C
DA -> E
Infested terrans were good vs protoss iirc, but maps with neutral cc are almost extint.
This was the day we were all waiting for.
"what is used a lot = S tier"
Bullshit. Artosis, that's not how tier lists work.
What is strong, what gives huge impact on the game when used, what is hard to counter = S tier.
ZvZ - ends so early that ultras can not be used, but that doesnt make em any less OP.
Another example zealots used a lot, zealots used at many match ups, but it isnt hard to counter them and it isnt often that zealots decide the game, so it is a mistake to put them into A tier.
Same shit with hydralisk - you cant fucking judge the unit by number of matchups you use this unit in.
Or at least be more consistent about it, because science vessels can absolutely win games in all 3 matchups and regularly in 2 of them. Yet somehow it’s not even an A rank unit because siege tanks pervert TvT power levels so much.
why dry-goon? :D
Completely agree with his list, not kidding. Probes being able to just lay down 10 cannons in 10 seconds gives Protoss an insane advantage in ease of play
S: Zergling, Defiler, Mutalisk, Vulture, Probe, Siege Tank, Science Vessel, High Templar
A: Overlord, Dragoon, Zealot, Scourge, SCV, Arbiter
B: Hydralisk, Lurker, Marine, Goliath, Dark Templar, Shuttle, Reaver, Observer
C: Wraith, Ultralisk, Archon, Medic, Drone, Dropship
D: Battlecruiser, Carrier, Corsair, Guardian, Valkyrie, Firebat
E: Queen, Dark Archon, Ghost
F: Devourer, Scout
FF: Broodling, Infested Terran
Dark templar B or A for sure can do damage if not scanned or scouted also arbiter 100% A tier as well
@@jasonbonilla4915 I thought for a while. Yes, I guess, you are right. In terms of usability Dark Templars are closer to Marines, Goliaths and Lurkers, then to Wraiths, Ultras and Archons. Also feels like Cariers and BCs are both vT specialists with occasional use in vZ, so I demoted the Carrier a bit.
@@vasjaforutube1 yea if you run carriers or BC and you get countered you basically lose the game so its high risk which does drop it in the tier list
Ok honestly, the tier list corresponding to a units use frequency in all matchups is a bad idea. When a unit so strongly counters another unit, you will see none of them in a matchup, but obviously one unit is still very strong. Like we dont see reavers in PvT, except for really early game, because it shuts down terran bio so hard.
Also some units may not be used in all matchups, but that does not explain how strong they are, since they can be trash in 2 matchups but be ridiculously strong in one and that alone makes them a great unit. Ultras and corsairs are definitely not D rank units. Same with medics, but there was also a remark where he said medics are lower because they are support units. Just because something is a support unit, does not mean it is not ridiculously strong. Sentries in Sc2:WoL were support units and they were definitely S tier. You dont evaluate a units prowess by thinking how they contribute when massed, you evaluate it comparing an army with and without them.
Finally overlord is not an A unit. Sure it has some great strengths, but it is at the same time a great vulnerability. No terran and protoss will ever lose games because they dont have anti air and their opponents have AA fliers.
I mean you're free to make your own tier list based on the units utility in general and not just based on matchups. He is at least consistent throughout the list, which is really the only thing that matters.
@@DarkLeviathan8 I dont think he is consistent. He does not list things on purely frequency of use in all matchups. He also adds unit strength in an implicit manner.
If he was doing a use frequency list, then High Templars should not be S tier, as they are not used in every matchup always, but zealots should be S tier since they literally are used in every matchup vs every composition. Actually a frequency list skews things massively towards basic units.
Anyways he switches from being strong and use frequency quite arbitrarily when listing. First I thought he lists them according to frequency and then he ranks the most frequent ones with strength. So S-B are frequent and are ranked for their strength and the rest are ranked for their frequency.
But then it makes zero sense to put queens and corsairs in the same spot. Corsairs are always used in PvZ whereas queens are not consistent in any matchup
wow by putting Vulture which is absolutelly name of the game in A instead of S Artosis you totally ignored all S from chat and just went with your own little game to feel oppressed and underpowered terran playing against odds. Sure it did end up in S ... but even questioning this is poor joke.
Vulture is by far most cost effective and deadly unit in this game. Going at only 75 minerals (aka 3 lings or ling and marine) it delivers insane value ranging from GOD tier harrasment to provide beyond S tier value in mines that persist even through dead of said vulture. Not to mention it is so absurdally fast that you can on spot send them and intercept moving drones/probes across the map with little to no consequences as it is so dirty cheap. And lets not even forget that for shockingly low cost it deals gigantic damage especially to small targets but to big ones and building aswell as long as they have shield at 20+6.
People are confusing GOOD with NECESSARY. Science vessels are often NECESSARY but that doesnt mean they dont have big flaws. Similar with vultures: useless without mines, but half the time they are NECESSARY for terran to survive. With mines they are probably A but not S.
Overlords are kind of amazing when compared to how P and T supply. A-teir.
When comparing workers is cool but drones are better than SCVs by a mile AND probes are better than both the others by a mile.
The corsair being on same tier as queen is wrong. Even if corsair is only used in one matchup, it's so powerful in that matchup that it should be at least C or B tier.
This does not look like Tastlesses list :D
Personaly I would move the Carrier to D tier and bump the Corsair and the Ultralisk to C tier
Those two are only used in 1 match up, but its the most crucial in that match up
At least the Corsair...I mean there is no way the Corsair is at the same tier with the Dark Archon and the Firebat....
Can you do the same with upgrades or spells?
Not a bad Tier list at all, but Valks and Guardians are certainly better than Arty’s E rank.
To be fair, he did this list before he personally started using Valks more (albeit with iffy micro), and before Guardians started entering the meta more (now there’s actual ‘Guardian rushes’ of a sort- and they work 😳 ).
Also, Corsairs and Ultras aren’t D rank… should be C at least.
Arty dies enough to Ultras to know better 😊.
I always thought the observers what atleast make it on the A rank. Really the best scouter and detector and quite cheep.
Observers don't have shit on Overlords. Observers are fragile, easily sniped if seen and slow without upgrades... and they're in a race without much detection they also require their own special production tech. Overlords are durable, cheap, built anyways, have no tech tree requirement, don't cost supply and also function to facilitate drops.
Being invisible by default isn't a big upside when your opponents have better and more convenient detection. You should check some of the recent PvZ meta on certain maps where lurker+hydra just *slaughters* protoss if they have the high ground.
@@Syfa Except there are always counters to all units and and that includes overlords being massacred by marines, corsairs and dragoons specially if they're not upgraded. I'm not even saying observers are better than overlords. Also their invisibility can be so undetected because they don't really attack. They can stay in one position and players can often be unaware it's there. And sometimes their colors blends in the background like camouflage despite being detected.
Observers are basically the worst detection in the game. Unlike scans and overlords, they cost supply. Unlike science vessel they don't have any good support abilities. Yet you're paying 75 gas per observer. To make matters worse they require their own tech structure. The only reason toss use them is because they're the only mobile detection they have.
@@taragnor if you successfully put on observed in your opponents base, you can see what they're doing the whole time without them noticing and also, its 25 minerals makes up for the 75 gas. And what about the science vessels having 225 gas? I mean obviously they are used as spell casters more than detectors but if you use them as detectors alone, they would be the worst.
The zergling is my favorite Starcraft unit. It has no downsides at all!
Yeah ling is A rank unit for sure. It's even stronger with upgrades but it pretty much rules the map and costs nothing.
@@alexfriedman2047 Its one of the main reasons why I choose Zerg as my go to race when I used to play Starcraft online. Plus, they were the only Starcraft race I was good at playing with, they have the best units.
@@LordMalice6d9 Terran units are good a f too. I play protoss because I always played Protoss but Protoss units suck. None of their Units are S rank lol. HT and Arb are pretty good though. I play a lot of SC1 but I'm only like 1800 MMR. Not 2100 or whatever Artosis is.
@@alexfriedman2047 Protoss units are very mixed bag. Protoss have at least 3 units I would say definitely qualify as A tier units at most, maybe S. High Templar, probe and Zealot.
Scourge should be S, everything else seems legit, also maybe Wraith can go down a notch
Marine medic goes C and D? NOOOO
I think it would be better to make a different tier lists for different Match Ups.
32:05 artosis list
common Arty.....they were ranking based on the first letter of the unit......Dark Archon - D ..... if the unit had a first letter that is not withn S and FF they used the second letter :D its just trolling
Science vessel is S class.
Smiling suits ya you should do it more
I’d say for S: ling, goon & vessel. :) Short list
is there no way to "vote" in twitch ?