Thoughts on The Timeless River & Time Travel in KH
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- Опубліковано 23 бер 2021
- Some use keyblades to remove their hearts to travel to the past. Some use arks to launch into the future. And some just wish for the good old days.
Also, this video is way overdue.
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#KingdomHearts #TimeTravel #MerlinIsOP #Theory - Ігри
The Timeless River always stood out to me since I first played KH2. Given all we now know about time travel and it's relevance to the story of KH, it's something I thought would be worth revisiting to take another look at.
Also, despite what I said at the start of the video, this isn't a theory video. This is more just speculation/discussion.
Nice STEINS;GATE music!
It's a perfect fit for this video
Hey I have a theory. I think Xigbar still has both of his eyes in tact. Big evidence was the new cutscene when Luxord threw the card. Xigbar caught it without looking and if he had one eye it would have been his lost field. Additionally, when in KH2 we beat Xigbar we get a 1st of his view. It’s bifocal not mono. This also happens again when Luxu collects No Name from the Keyblade Graveyard. If that’s the case then Luxu still has both his actual eyes or doesn’t need eyes. Also Luxord proved that Xigbar was more than meets the eye with this card throw. Just a quick theory bit it’s something I think should be talked about.
I had suspected that “timeless river” was a different, but related, world than “disney castle.”
And if they were different worlds, time could move at different rates between the two (ala KHdr), thus why a “door” was the form the portal took rather than a “dream portal.”
However the weird memory things in timeless river had me pondering if there was a reason the door resembled the doors from Castle Oblivion?
Perhaps Pete used a memory variant of the unchained state? Where the chains of memory created the portal rather than their removal...
Either way castle oblivion memory doors share design similarities and may reveal details on this method of time travel
@@AlphaOblivion7 glad you noticed lol
I like how Timeless River Sora is in Super Smash Bros Ultimate now.
It’s quite possible that nomura didn’t think of time travel at the time and just wanted to make an interesting world
Exercises in Kingdom Hearts theories are just that. Exercises. Its pretty obvious that Nomura made it up as he went along. Its pretty great for what it is but can hardly hold up to real scrutiny.
tbh thats what i was thinking, i know he says there aren’t coincidences but i think yeah in this case he was just adding it the door at that time
@@GoFidoGo I agree. I'm not one of those people who thinks it's all planned out, which is why I think it might be retconned. Phase 1 certainly wasn't all planned out, but I think that's changing with Phase 2. Even just yesterday, the new Union update contained a minor retcon that most people probably didn't notice. But yeah, whilst this isn't a theory, I thought it'd be an interesting discussion
EDIT: There was no retcon. Just my mistake not noticing a difference in translation (read my next comment) 😣
@@NextGenNovelist what retcon?
@@NextGenNovelist Yeah, what retcon ?
KH3 actually does allude to this - Dark Riku says "Unlike a certain wizard you know, I had to follow the rules to travel through time." Merlin's just so powerful he can break the rules, so the only mystery is how the heck Pete was able to do it.
maybe pete just has potential
Can you tell us the specific scene/world dark riku says this in?
@@jirentheugly Just checked. It's San Fransokyo, the scene after the Darkubes fight.
@@finalsurvivor1 thanks
I'm guessing Maleficent helped him.
Here is my theory: Timeless River exists within Pete's memories of the past, it is not the true past. It is a world built from his desire to go back to a better time, that is why everything is in black/white and characters have a different aesthetic to them, they see themselves how Pete remembers them. That also explains why the original door has a coat of arms of Pete on the top and not of, let's say, Disney Castle or Timeless River. As for Sora, he just adapts to the vibe of the world, like in Halloween Town. Although it wouldn't explain as to why stealing the cornerstone of light in a fake world would result in the real stone loosing it's powers in the present. But notice how the Cornerstone of Light has never completely disappeared from the Hall, it simply lost it's protective powers. But if you go back in time and change the past, it should result in an immediate change, not a gradual one, either the stone is there or not. My guess is that this fake world created from Pete's memories influenced the real one. Pete's desire to go back to a better time influenced the real Cornerstone of Light and caused it to be in a "Shrodinger's Stone" kind of situation. Now, why Pete has all of this power I have no idea. But it has been shown in the KH cannon before that memories hold a strong power.... so who knows. Sure, the right answer is "Ret-con", but I like my little theorie and it gives Pete a bit more dimension.
inb4 Pete's actually got some strong latent magical abilities, he's just never been able to tap into them to the extent that we see him use in the creation of Timeless River.
@MisterC; I really like this idea. It factors in with how we understand memory and worlds created from memory in this series. Chain of Memories is all about visiting worlds that only exist in Riku and Sora's memories, yet the memory worlds influence the real worlds outside of the Castle (at least I think they do, it's been a while to be honest)
You've also got Dream Drop Distance, which shows past versions of worlds where in the characters there that aren't asleep in the present function as past selves of those characters (i.e. Mickey, Donald, Goofy, Pete, Jiminy, Pinocchio). And without getting too involved in that game because it's super tismy, you've basically got 2 versions of each of these characters, with Mickey being a special case and having 3 versions of himself. Each one separate from each other by both world and position in time. However, these characters are still influenced by the events that take place on their sleeping world, arguably. Look at these characters' behavior. Sora's name has a familiar ring to Jiminy and he admits that Sora makes him think they know each other despite them meeting for the first time, the first thing Mickey says to Sora is have they met before, Sora's name makes him smile when he hears it, and to Riku he says they're going to help each other a lot someday. Very interesting, no? This couldn't be if these sleeping worlds, created from the memories of the worlds themselves, functioned as a normal past world would.
Then there's the digital world, which is made from not only hard data but, you guessed it, the memories of people who have been to those worlds. Think Digital Twilight Town. Roxas's time there with Hayner, Pence, and Olette, somehow carries over to the Real Twilight Town. Even causing completely normie characters like Hayner, to have deja vu when speaking to Sora to the point where he even asks Sora if they've met before. This should be impossible, because it was a Digital copy of himself that had this connection with Roxas ergo Sora, so why does it influence the real Hayner in this way?
This only makes sense if you factor in that copies of worlds, memories or datascape versions or whatever, can in fact influence the real worlds they are based on, at least in part. I think Timeless River is one such world. A version of Disney Castle's past state, influenced by Pete's memories and therefore connected to the real Disney Castle world.
This is a really good theory.
ive heard about the cat, whats the stone ??
"While you're there, the nature of that world may tempt you to do something dark. You must resist that temptation at all costs!" - Merlin the Wizard
Lol because old cartoons were all about hurting others or causing mischief
@@blacklikethesun So true. Lol
Look at the emblem on the doors. The one Pete wills to existence has a capital P, a cigar, and a toon glove. Merlin’s on the other hand has a fleur-de-lis. It seems these doors are somewhat personal. While Merlin clearly knows the invocation for it, Pete stumbles on it by accident.
There is a character we can compare this to in the Final Fantasy multiverse. Noel Kreiss from FF13-2. Noel was able to tranced time and open a gate to Valhalla because he “Prayed for a Miricle.” Noel was literally the last man on the planet and willed his way out of the timeline.
I think that it's just a whole unique world in a permanently frozen timeline that has ties to the current Disney castle. We learned in DDD that worlds can dream of events from the past and that some worlds are more 'awake' than others so it's possible that the Timeless River is one of these worlds. Pete summoning the door is more like unlocking admin permissions from a world he has deep connections to rather than anyone able to do the same for any world.
I think your on to something here i recall the sleeping world of the three musketeers in ddd. It’s actually similar to the timeless river.
This is actually a really good theory. I’ve always had a deeper speculation too the concept of Timeless River but initially i never thought of it from your perspective, my take on it (as a kid) was that Timeless River was Disney’s way of putting there own cameo in a cameo. Breaking the 5th wall in a way. The Disney worlds in itself are characters in the franchise, like seeing the original Red ranger make an appearance in Mystic Force, lol - too me it was just a love letter too the fans and a way too show everything was connected through the history but now i see it may be deeper than what i thought.
@@itsOGP well the mystic mother was reta repulsesa and the big leader of the underworld was actually lord zed. Completely canon
@@connorschultz380 elaborate. I’m confused.
@@itsOGP there is a very old video game, and interviews that apparently say, in mystic force the mystic mother (the one who gives the rangers there morphers) is reita repulsa and the being leading the under world is Lord Zed who apparently mutated after wanting to learn more about his past post the zordon goodness wave and accepting his nature as evil. Reta accepts her past but dosen't become evil because she decideds it dosen't define her, getting magic powers again, hence becoming the mystic mother. Yes they apparently did this to explain the OG red ranger cameo,
Power rangers has a wild canon
Assuming these doors can simply be wished into existance, maybe its a matter of what point in time you get. Pete just wished to go back into the past but did he specify "when" in time he wanted to go back too. These doors probably can't send you to the exact time you want but maybe in time where it thinks you need to go to fulfill your wish. However, these doors can only appear when you're at your lowest point and it probably thought that Pete was at his lowest point. Lastly, maybe someone like Merlin can only open another door when the distortion is noticable and the changes have not cemented enough in the world that it is summoned for.
Yep. Pete specifically wanted to go back to this time, so that's where the door sent him. My interest isn't so much in the Timeless River, but more the doors that take you there. I'm wondering where those doors came from. Like, are they still capable of existing in the story or not? Again, it's probably not ever going to be explained, but if I told you the ark from KH1 would be so important to a KH mobile game, or that Marluxia, Larxene and Ventus are all from the distant past, or that Sora would end up in Shibuya, I doubt any would have believed it lol
@@NextGenNovelist What if the Timeless River isn't the past? Wouldn't it just be called Disney Castle or a different location?.. Idk I feel like maybe the Timeless River is a "time branch" made by Pete's memories. Maybe it has something to do with the Cornerstone of Light? We have so little lore on something that's powerful enough to keep heartless off an entire planet. Nomura, why?!!!
I think it's a gateway to the heart of Disney Castle, allowing you to travel through the heart of the world to reach its own past. Maleficent herself points out that it's a portal to the past, which is different from time travel through other means. The past and the present were connected, the heart of Disney castle keeping the pathway open. This is likely only possible due to the relative strength of a world's heart compared to a person's. That might be the method to go around the usual rules regarding time travel. Most worlds, I'm assuming, wouldn't do this for you. But Disney World is where dreams come true, so Disney Castle, representing Disney World, grants Pete's wish. It doesn't do it in the way he expects though.
Pete wished for his old steamboat back, the one that someone stole from him long ago. It turns out he was the one who stole it, so it allowed Sora, Donald, and Goofy in to take it back and save itself from the darkness Pete brought. Now Pete got his stolen boat back in the past, and Disney Castle is safe. Everyone but Maleficent wins!
I think it's likely Nomura will leave it behind like you said, because given the current methods of time travel this one breaks all those rules. I wonder if he thought about the Timeless River at all when he came up with the time travel rules in DDD.. It seems odd to think he just completely forgot, but I'm not sure. As you say, he might have just retconned it. It'd be weird if one of these came back in the future. If they do though how exactly they work will likely be explained to us
Thank you for making this video, this is something that's been nagging at me for a long time, especially after zipping through KHUX this winter. I wonder if the room where Pete was standing might be part of it, his pov of looking out from the clock tower is interesting (and I suspect that all the towers we've seen so far are connected to the original clock tower in Daybreak Town, but that's a different tangent).
I also feel like that maybe it hasn't been brought up again because of all the new IPs that got top priority (and, tbh, current Disney doesn't care too much for their classics). Hopefully the next entry will balance it all out again.
Yeah. I really want a world based on Atlantis the Lost Empire for a very long time now. It would make for an awesome world to explore. Listen to the Crystal Chamber and you’ll hear a gamelan in one section followed by some deep chanting. The songs are that beautiful. I would love Square Enix and Disney if they do put in Atlantis. I know it wasn’t a big hit but I loved that movie and I still do. It’s part of the reason why I want to become an archaeologist.
@@mirandagoldstine8548 if there's not at least 2 or 3 pre-2000 Disney worlds, I might even just skip it, because that's why I got into KH in the first place. I'm not a gamer at all, I just want to relax and interact with classic Disney worlds and characters. I do love KH3, but in a lot ways it feels more like a giant advertisement for Disney, and I wonder if that was in the back of people's minds since it was being developed at the same time as Disney+.
If nomura brings them back, I hope he also uses the opportunity to give us Oswald in KH
10:25 Loool wow. If only he knew! This was a great video but something tells me the "Sora is MoM" believers are going to have a field day with this one! 😂
Also.. Poor Aqua! 😢
I have always wondered why Malefecient keeps Pete around and I think the main reason is that out of all her minions, he is the only one not only being able to fight keyblade wielders but also basically being able to fight against hordes of heartless. He might actually have magic that can go toe to toe with some of the most powerful sourcerers in canon but his magic is used for melee fighting more often than not. He may have stronger magical potentail.
In Re:Coded, one of his big moves in his boss fight in the DS version was D-Thundaga, meaning Pete can actually cast up to Tier-3 Thunder element magic, so he has to have some potential. Plus he can cast what looks to be the spells Rampart and Vallation together in KH2, which is the move that renders him invincible for a small period of time. So he's a decent spellcaster just with a preference for fisticuffs. Maleficent keeps him around as useful muscle, no doubt. Who else was gonna do all that digging in KH3?
"i hope you guys like confusing videos"
oh no what did nomura do THIS TIME
I think you might be overthinking this a bit. There are a few clues that point towards a simpler explanation, so this is how I look at it and why I think the Timeless River and the doors DON'T break the laws of time travel.
First, Merlin calls it a door to "a special world." I think that's a big clue that this isn't "true" time travel. The world itself is also called the Timeless River, and that coupled with the strange windows into memories makes me think that this is a sort of world beyond time. It's a specific point in time that has been preserved as its own world. Probably to do with the Cornerstone of Light, since it's clearly tied to that.
Second, Pete wishes this door into existence, how? I think there's a simpler explanation. Pete is tied to that world, and that point in time. If the Timeless River is already preserved as its own world, then Pete is only able to wish a door into existence because of his connection to that world. It's a time when he wasn't such a bad guy, when he wasn't a lackey for a major villain, when he was just Pete the boat captain. Especially the fact that present Pete can interact with past Pete makes it seems like he isn't properly time traveling either, but stepping into this preserved world where time is frozen... and bit a funky, too, given the windows of memory and all that.
And third, Sora locking the door. It seems similar, at least to me, to Sora locking the keyholes in various worlds, and indeed, after he leaves the Timeless River, he does his whole keyhole sequence for the Timeless River, using what? The Cornerstone of Light. That's the key. He locks the world of the Timeless River. Not a door to the past, but a door to, as Merlin says, "a special world."
So my theory goes this way: The Timeless River is its own world, a world that can affect the future of Disney Castle thanks to its connection to the Cornerstone of Light, but otherwise, it is its own anomaly in time. People can't just wish doors into whatever past they want all over the universe, unless there's another Timeless River around. When Sora locks the door that Pete summoned, it's just like locking the keyholes in other worlds. He's protecting that world from being tampered with by Darkness now, and so it's like he really is locking the Timeless River away, and once he leaves, he probably can't go back either.
That's the way it makes sense to me, anyway. And I think it's a much simpler and more logical explanation than trying to integrate it into the laws of time travel explained in future games. It's its own thing, and we probably won't see anything like it again (the Cornerstone of Light is a big clue, I think that had a part to play in preserving its own past, so to speak. I wish we knew more about the Cornerstone of Light or that it appeared again, it feels like it could be a big deal in the overarching lore, but anyway). And in KH III, Merlin brings Kairi and Lea into a place where they can train, a world that is... what? A world where time stands still. It seems that's something Merlin knows a lot about.
My head canon is that it’s less a function of time travel and more a function of the world itself. Meaning that the Xehanort method can be use anywhere in the world of KH (given the requirements)
Where as the door to Timeless River only leads to past Timeless River. I don’t think you could go there and the. Keyblade glider/gummi/star piece yourself to another location in the KH world. Perhaps a function of the keystone of light.
Essentially it still it has its own set of rules and conditions as a form of time travel but only in that world.
(That still leaves the question as to how it appeared in Hallow Bastion but that could be because Pete has a connection there. Perhaps the keystone of light grants the wish in Hallow Bastion and grants him access there. Ie. The door can show up where ever but it still only has the power to take you to past Disney Castle. Pete automatically is in Timeless River when he enters the door. He is not in past Hallow Bastion.
The MoM just confirmed another method in the latest UX update. You need the memories and a medium in the time to go to it. Aka since luxu has the memories of the MoM and a medium (his eye in Noname) he can therefore have a direct line to the future.
That was explained back in 2019 by Darkness to Malificent.
EDIT: At 1:20 that exact method is what I was referring to. In that scene you see darkness say it, but it says "intermediary" instead of "medium", which I'm guessing is just a translation thing
What I think how the door appears to Pete is that he use to be a citizen to Disney Castle, and when he “wished” to go back in time. The Cornerstone of Light granted his wish as a second chance to rewrite his future to remain in Disney Castle. The Cornerstone of Light must have been the link from the past and to the future since it’s only happens to Disney castle and the timeless river. From my understanding of the Power of Awakening, it’s deals with the matter of all worlds and how Sora used it to bring back another heart is how he being travel to another universe. But there must be rules with time travels in just one world. Well that’s my thoughts on it.
The way I see it this method of time travel seems to be connected to Disney characters in Disney Castle exclusively. Since worlds in Kingdom Hearts could be classified as other dimensions, the Timeless River could possibly be something that only affects Disney Castle.
Isnt the world just a memory? Memories are something that sora and gang have explored before. It looks like they are manifesting the memories just like how the cards manifested worlds in castle oblivion
It's not a memory. It's literally the past. That's why what Pete was doing there was changing the future
Merlin did also say that Timeless River was "a special world", and it seems like Disney Castle itself is also a special world, of a sort. It's possible that, even due to the Cornerstone of Light itself, that Timeless River always exists (I.E. perhaps, literally timeless) and characters from that era can always travel there, and Pete just happened to by accident.
You know,.. Malificent and Pete try to get back to current time, where the fortellers arrive now, might have just been a hiccup for them where they landed 'before' KH1 looking for the box, a black and white world? Darkness opening up doors for whoever called for one? (in a world that was accessible by the cornerstone of light) This speculation might have more to it than we think! Obviously just something we cant put together without the story continuing.
Knowing Nomura, he'll probbably find a way to explain this and at the same time make things even more confusing.
My thought was that The Cornerstone of Light is what generated the door. Let's be honest, Timeless River Mickey is kind of a dick. It reached out to Pete because maybe Pete isn't as evil as Pete pretended to be (and because he was an original citizen of Disney Castle/Town). The Door was the Cornerstones way of letting Pete correct his past mistakes as a villians, but he abused the power by showing it to Maleficent. Also because you can't access the gummi ship in the Timeless River, it would appear as though it's time travel is strictly connected to Disney Castle/Town.
Ansem/Young Xehanort's method and the incomplete Ark from UX theoretically follow the same rules: a free Heart by nature is able to transcend spacetime much more easily, another version of yourself would provide two of the things needed (a waypoint and memories of the traveller), and the RealOrgXIII made empty Replicas as the medium for the travellers' bodies.
The way I understand those doors is that they are basically chances at redemption. Pete was wishing for the ability to go back to the past because he was feeling lost. He just explained to Maleficent everything that has happened while she was gone and she immediately berates him, and tells him that when she succeeds there will be no place for him in the kingdom she plans to build. He starts to cry and says "what I wouldn't give to go back in time" and at that moment the doorway appears for him.
How did it appear? Honestly, Disney magic I feel is the best way to describe it. There is light in Pete's heart, and that light combined with his very strong wish in that moment to be better gave him the second chance he wanted. Unfortunately, he decides to show the door to Maleficent and she does not care about how it appeared or why, only what it is and how they can use it to their advantage. So, the temptations of time travel won out and he did not follow through with the redemption he originally wanted and I think that is why Sora was able to lock the door in the end. Since the door locked exactly how a keyhole would lock back in KH1, I think Sora basically locked the keyhole for Pete's wish itself. It has been sealed so that Darkness cannot touch it and corrupt it. So, it is possible Pete may be able to summon it again one day, after he has actually worked to better himself and overcome his own darkness. Then, the door may well appear for him again and he will get the second chance he really wants deep down.
I personally see Timeless River as an outlier. As you said it shouldn't make sense since it breaks the laws of time travel and physics of Kingdom Hearts. Granted the use of Magic is often fluid in its definition and capabilities within Kingdom Hearts. Merlin is most likely an obscenely powerful Wizard that scales above time.
Wait a minute, there WAS a past Pete there.... which means wouldnt it make sense since he needs a vessel of himself from the past to time travel?
this.
yeah Pete's body wasn't destroyed unlike with normal kh time travel. Since Donald and Goofy recognise Timeless River, we have to assume that they would've gone through like Pete did in their modern forms except for the fact that their clothing/magic automatically changed them to match with whatever world they're in
In a weird way..... this makes perfect sense. In the Disney Sword & the Stone movie, he confirms to Arthur that he has been to the future. We see him disappear in the movie, but he could just be vanishing to where he places his door if we want to cannonize this into the KH lore. Out of our wizards, godmothers & fairies, he's the only one who cannonically, in his movie, CAN time travel.
Easiest explaination is Nomura didn't think of time travel when KH2 was made and promptly forgot this was even a thing.
8:25 Well, Merlin did whisk himself to the Americas when he got pissed off at Arthur for wanting to become a squire. I think he whisked himself there before Columbus arrived centuries later because of what his owl Arcamedus or however you spell it said mentioned some place that hadn't been discovered yet.
Merlin and Fairy godmother are magical beings so I imagine they can time travel.
One thing we learn in TWEWY is there is a power called imagination. Heart power linked to memory. Pete used his heart and imagination to go to a World like a Dream. A pocket dimension the Heart of Disney Castle made "in the past" stuck at the eternal now. Time moves past it like Worlds trapped in Dark dreams, but because the Heart of Timeless River is attached to the heart of Disney Castle, if the Cornerstone gets destroyed "in the Past" it gets destroyed "in the Future". They vibrate together.
Think Xehanort's Scal Ad Caelum or Traverse Town in Dream Drop Distance.
Watching this as I go to Timeless River in a KH2 Randomizer
In the Disney movie “The Sword In The Stone” Merlin near the end of the movie said he came back from the 20th or the 21st century in modern clothing than what he usually wears
It may be the reason we are shown sora and the gang entering the world again is because they did have a version of themselves waiting there and it's a time loop of them. Theres is a version of them there because they always ended up visiting this world.
Well Pete originated from Disney Castle world, maybe it’s a magic that inhabitants of that world can use
I feel like, more than anything else, it's a matter of the tone of the characters' universes. The old Disney cartoons that Pete hails from played very fast and loose with physics and continuity. Mickey has been a deckhand, a clock cleaner, a ghostbuster, a cowboy, a race car driver, and a musketeer, and the presence of Timeless River, the Sorcerer's Apprentice elements of Symphony of Sorcery, and the Country of the Musketeers seems to confirm that that varied background is true for the Mickey in Kingdom Hearts as well. The fact that those characters, including Pete, developed in a universe defined by wacky adventures with little sensible continuity allows them greater flexibility in the magic and actions they're able to take. Pete traveling to the past to meet himself is basically another episodic adventure in the style of those old cartoons. On the other hand, characters like Maleficent and the KH-original villains, being held up to more realistic standards of continuity and tone, have more rules to follow for the sake of maintaining that realism. So I don't think Pete's time portal is an inherent element of the KH series that will feature moving forwards. Rather, it's basically a trait of an individual character that they're able to exercise when it's tonally appropriate for their personality, like Genie interacting with the "camera" or Captain Hook and the crocodile running at impossible speed over the surface of water.
Luxu and the master of master's are the only way for Sora to end up in timeless river because they know him before he was even born
It would have to be just the Master of Masters since we can only assume Timeless River is during a time before Mickey got the keyblade or became King, and since we know Disney Town is way larger in BBS while Mickey is still training when Sora is only four years old, Timeless River would take place before he is born and Luxu wouldn't know him yet because he only met him in KH2 and never saw the Book Of Prophecies since the MoM wanted to stop any potential "temporal paradoxes".
Great video ! I forgot all about this ! This a big plot hole that I’m sure nomura will explain it in some convoluted way in kingdom hearts 4 😂
Time travel is always tricky to work with especially when there are restrictions, I don't think that they used time travel without considering the implications on the magic system
I believe potentially two ideas that either the timeless river is less flashing back to the past in a literal sense but is a world made from fragment memories of the past enough formed in to the world which is why the windows are different time periods/ episodes or cornerstone of light itself made timeless river when it formed or fragmented from time and that's the only reason it can be created by Pete or Merlin who were either in an area with memories connected or are apart of the time itself that was fragmented or saved
I feel like it could more be that this world exists, as Merlin does allude to it as a "special world" (could just be him not wanting to tell them that it's the past but surely he knew that they would figure that out). So if we take what he says at face value, and that it is another world, maybe it's something to do with the Cornerstone. Maybe it's the world inside it or something, as that would explain how the outside world could be influenced without introducing another means of time travel into KH lore. We could also use this to explain Pete creating a door, as perhaps this could just be that people with connections to the events of this "sealed world" have the ability to access it through means of wishing for it.
"You betrayed the law!"
Door: "LAAAAWW!!"
Ok, so, I have a theory on this. We know the world to exist in 3 dimensions, but there is a 4th, time. The main worlds that we travel to exist on the base 3 dimensional plane. Timeless River exists within the 4th dimensional plane. We know that methods of travel between the 3 dimensional worlds vary game to game. In a similar way, travel between these 4th dimensional worlds can be done in many ways. These worlds are one method, the safest on actually. The power of waking can be one of the riskier ways since your body can't come with you. The reason that changing the future can't be changed without punishment is because the new timeline split is essentially a new set of worlds being created in both the 3rd and 4th dimensional spaces. I hope this makes a bit of sense.
I was honestly going to go with the idea that Timeless River was a world based on the memories of the Disney Castle Denizens, but the conversation around the 10min mark definitely seems to disprove that. Honestly it being a magical equivalent to a virtual world, one that any of the people whose memories are included could visit, makes a lot more sense than it literally being time travel, but that's what they went with apparently haha. Particularly since Pete, Donald, and Goofy's past selves aren't present..?
I’m glad that they seem to be making the Disney side more relevant again at the end of MoM and ReMind what with Fairy Godmother and Merlin getting important.
Stay well out there everybody, and God bless you friends. :)
Timeless river is an actual short with Mickey and Pete in. It's a Disney movie world, so both mickey and Pete have innate connections to it and can pass into their "short" bodies.
Note how Donald is wearing a classic outfit
Also for a very important item the cornerstone doesn't really do much doesn't it. Like all it's supposed to do as far as my knowledge gives me is to keep darkness out of Disney castle, and then it gets kicked to the side like with multiple things in this series.
It's possible that the time period of the timeless river itself is why it can be accessed in such a strange way. It's also possible that the doors already existed, and only appear to those who wish strongly enough to go to that specific time period. If the first is true, it could easily be hand-wavaed away as the exception to the rule. If the second is true, it could mean that there is the possibility of similar doors existing to other points in history that actually can be changed.
What I'm saying is that there are a lot of possible answers.
maybe it's similar to the door Sora summoned to save Riku Mickey and Aqua?
Or maybe it's related specifically to the cornerstone of light or the world it originated from?
Time travel in Kingdom Hearts just confuses me. Especially in connection to the theory that Sora and the MoM are one and the same. I mean you need to have a form of yourself in existence and people to remember you in order to travel through time.
If these doors are still a thing they're capable of sending someone back in time without needing to have any version of yourself in the past, or people who remember you in the future. You would just walk on through and you're there
@@heyalexa8570 Hopefully they aren’t retconned out of existence.
Yeah, that would be the only way to explain the doors and the time travel without retconning it. Donald, Goofy and Pete all have past versions at this time due to the fact that they were from that world and have known Mickey for ages. But judging how the castle has only started construction here and how Mickey is neither a king or a keyblade wielder yet, this suggests that Timeless River has to be a point in time a few years before BBS so it most likely took place before Sora himself was born.
Memories are a theme for a reason. Time travel is always possible this way. Steins; gate uses this concept in their time travel game. I think it's a memory from pete's view of timeless...yes you interact with mickey..but he's a "dream mickey" if you would. This was a time where Pete probably felt he had the most purpose. I feel bad for Pete, he just has no purpose. I actually liked him in Timeless... not because he was nice, but it was like he had a purpose...
Steins;Gate music 🙌🏿!!! So fitting 🤣! But, I will mention that Dark Riku does indirectly reference the time travel door in KH3 in San Fransokyo, with the line, "Unlike a certain wizard you know, I had to play by the rules to travel through time. Which meant leaving my body behind." Still, that doesn't explain how Pete was able to summon a door [unless he's one of the most powerful beings in the KH canon, he just hasn't realized it yet 🤪🤭]. But it does look like you're on the money with beings like Merlin, Fairy Godmother, and Yen Sid all being above the natural laws (and all in BLUE robes!; can't be a coincidence 🤔🧐)
Maybe Pete has some special abilities that haven't been elaborated on? Might be why Meleficent keeps him around. Might involve the Box.
"peeete? Peeeeete?" (Soulja Boy voice)
Here's a thought. Since they're pairs of doors that connect past and future, perhaps it could be stated that since both doors of a set come into existence at the same time and connect each other it solves itself by _being_ source and destination?
I'm sure Timeless River is a real past version, and not a creation from Pete's memories (like Xehanort's Scala ad Caelum), since it directly affects the present Disney Castle.
Something to note here is that Merlin tells the group to resist the temptation, meaning that they could change the past, which is the opposite of what Young Xehanort says in DDD ("You cannot change events destined to happen")
Pretty sure Mickey's appearance in KHX/UX was already explained as just another illusion from the Book of Prophecies, like all the illusionary worlds
It was never explained at all which is what makes it weird. But check out his theory on it, he addresses your exact point
I highly doubt he's just a projection because Donald and Goofy got there in a gummi ship and Mickey seems to have gotten there some other way
Memories maybe past created by memories not real past but door made of mental thought
All I know is that from the sounds of it. Those doors are exceptions born from a powerful type of magic. As for how one showed up for Pete, I cannot help but wonder if a third party was involved.
Maleficent did that
Maybe Darkness sneaked inside Pete and summoned the door through his heart? The door definitely came from Pete’s heart.
I think it’s a sleeping world like those worlds in Dream Drop Distance.
My theory is that Timeless River is a world within a world much like the sleeping worlds but it’s more like the core of the world itself. It’s original state so to speak change the core you change everything else. So it’s not time travel but something very similar. Use this ability on a world like the Keyblade Graveyard and you see what it original looked like. Pete has a strong heart he’s just an idiot, his wish simply let him connect with Timeless River.
I think that This door might by a side effect of Using the Ark. Maleficent Already traveled Back in time one way and then traveled in a another. Because she didn't leave the same way she entered it could have caused a rift in the time stream that was manifested by Pete's wish. Merlin could have felt this pathway between the present and the past and replicated it as it was already made possible. I think he might have reached out with his Magic to the same rift that was causing the Castle to be overrun with Vines.
In Short I think these Doors were Caused by Maleficent Messing Around with Time-Travel and are there as a way to compensate for the time line being altered.
You should cover ties with World of Final fantasy ( Woff) which has sora and cloud and time traveling. And strangers of Paradise. Both Numora made. In Woff there is a girl who abused time traveling and she lost her memories and became cursed by the gods and stands by a white door and literally summons cloud and sora. Her story is the reflection of Sora. And I wonder if the gates and doors in Woff are same as in KH
I think the door is simply the worlds Version of Timetravel. Worlds have Hearts in Kingdom Hearts and the Cornerstone could be the heart of Disney Castle. So maybe because Pete has the deep Wish of having the days back where he was a good guy, the cornerstone gave him the possibility to travel to these days with a direct portal. So that would mean that you can only travel with these doors if you are an inhabitant of the world and the heart of the world acknowlegde your wish. Merlin looked at the cornerstone and did see what is happening. Why Merlin can summon the door. Well he is literally the Time Wizard. The Fairy Godmother is an expert on Dreams, Yen Sid on Disney Magic and Merlin on Time. He is in his own movie the guy who travelled through different times from future and back to the past how he wants. That makes him basically the guy who can do anything time related which is somewhat possible in Kingdom Hearts. A door to the past can exist through the cornerstone of light? Sure easy i can cast that to. You know what i mean? That would be my explaination.
I hope they explain that inconsistency at some point. Retcon is frustrating when they don't make it coherent.
when sora locked the door he didn't just locked the door, he actually locked the summoning method so they wont be apearing. thats my take on it
A simple fix is that it wasn't time travel, but rather that the timeless river was held specifically the history of the world of Disney castle. You don't technically jump into the past so much as jump into a small world that is a vestige of the past that simply has time travel like properties. You change that world and something in the world of Disney castle occurs.Those with the now how or connection can in fact go there, and theoretically you could could change more than Disney castle but only if you do it from the place of Disney castle in the old days. There is no time travel involved more a large voodoo doll of Disney castle that can only manipulate events similarly to the laws of time travel.
This further backs my theory that either yen sid or Merlin is MoM. If not then it was MoM who conjured the door. When you first meet yen sid at his tower he explicitly says his tower is immune to the flow of time. So time stands still respective to outside. Its also in a placr that doesnt exist unless you want to find it then it pops up in a random place. It would explain where MoM went for so many years and never found AND it would explain what the hell ever happened to Yen Sid's keyblade cause he says he was a keyblade master. And why you never see MoM after he left until very shortly after the first time Yen Sid leaves his tower for an unknown amount of time. Also how you see MoM in the unreality very shortly after Sora arrives so thats basically confirmation he can traverse space time at will just like both merlin and yen sid can. Remember yen sid teleported from his tower to the keyblade grave yard to inevitably help the Xblade be forged AND LITERALLY MOSES THE SHT OUT OF THE HEARTLESS! MoM could just poof sht into existence like the keyblades and the chirithy just like Yen Sid and Merlin do ALL THE TIME! The two things that make me lean away from merlin to "wise and powerful master Yen sid" is parting the heartless see and saying "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!! Now let my people go and be quick about it." AND the fact that hes the tutor/mentor the THE KING....
Idk theres just too many things that we ONLY see in these 3 characters.
I’m under the assumption that Disney Magic and Keyblade Power can overlap, but have pros and cons. Merlin and Pete’s Door to Timeless River is a form of time travel, but it only seems to affect that Disney Castle world. Where as Young Xehanort’s method allows for his actions to make changes in all worlds in the KH universe. Disney Magic is something anyone can learn to do, Sora could still use magic without the Keyblade, but with the Keyblade Power, legitimate change to the universe can occur, which is why he paid the price.
I theorize that Timeless River so similar to Symphony of Sorcery and Country of the Musketeers, two examples of essentially time travel literally in the game that establishes the rules, which those two have already broken. For some reason, those points in time have been isolated and transformed into sleeping worlds. And since Symphony of Sorcery in inside a past version of Yen Sid's castle, we know that worlds that are currently awake can still have sleeping versions. I don't believe that Timeless River is a sleeping world per se, but it would make sense if it was an isolated point in time, through whatever magic that's capable of doing that. It is clearly time travel since Maleficent uses it to briefly take over Disney Castle, but I think instead of true time travel, that one point in time is its own world co existing with the modern version, with both world somehow chronologically linked. There's still a lot of holes there, like how Pete was able to summon the door or why the world would exist anyway, but I think it makes sense as to why it breaks the rules of time travel. And it at least makes no less sense than the other worlds I mentioned also being just weird, independent bubbles of time, unless that was explained in DDD and I'm just forgetting
I looked into those moments as well before I made this video and I wasn't really sure what to make of them. I think what you've stated is likely to be the most sensible way of looking at it. They're isolated somehow, and as others have suggested, maybe Pete's link to Disney Castle is the reason he could summon the door, and maybe this door is only able to be summoned in Disney Castle, or in some sort of connection with the cornerstone of light.
@@NextGenNovelist maybe the door is between the doors of light and darkness because the timeless river black and white but the real question about the world look not power why it looks like old style cartoon?
I don’t think Timeless River was retconned as there was one line in KH3 from Dark Riku where he says “unlike a certain wizard you know I had to follow the rules in order to travel through time which meant leaving my body behind” I’m pretty sure he was talking about Merlin when he summoned the door to timeless River when he said that
Nomura is too deliberate or at least liked to tie everything together to retcon this imo.
Oh I hate the foretellers... Granted, the MoM was manipulative as heck but they all played in his cards and raised a bunch of children to fight a war they could have avoided.
And not only that. After all those children died, THEY of all people get to return thanks to Luxu's shenanigans! They at least should have died with all their victims!
I really hope there won't be some redemption story for them. At this point, they're irredeemable for me.
LMAO damn
Disney Castle and Timeless River are weird. The biggest weird thing to me is that The Cornerstone of Light is not explained at all. It's the whole reason we're even going to the past and yet we don't get a origin story about it. It's just always been there. What's it's deal? Why don't all World's have a cornerstone? What makes it so special? Then to top it off Terra is found right beside it! It baffles me to this day.
I wonder if it isn’t time travel, but a door to the memory of the world? And any changes to that memory affects the physical makeup of the world without actually changing time?
At first I was thinking it could have been a world created from petes memory but that dose not explain how it affects the actual present so idk
This doesn't have to do with the doors directly, but honestly Pete has always been some sort of weird prodigy at certain things, despite his perpetual incompetence. He has an huuuge knack for controlling Heartless, whereas better Disney villains than he have fallen victim to them, such as Clayton and Scar. In fact, he's the only character in the series so far who has single handedly controlled two Boss level Heartless at once. Then he has a skill with computers and hacking, which not even Data Riku can fully protect from, and even moreso he was shown to give himself new abilities in the datascape, having some how "hacked" himself power over lightning. (In his boss battle he uses an attack called D-Thundaga, when he has never shown an affinity for lighting or really any elemental magic at all in the past, leading me to believe he actually gave himself those abilities by hacking the datascape.)
But yeah, add those to the fact that Pete was able to summon that door, and you've got me vigorously scratching my head. Pete doesn't have a lot of common sense, indeed very little, but thinking about all that it's actually pretty obvious why Maleficent puts up with him. His skillset is bizarre but highly useful.
Maybe it wasn't actually time travel but maybe Mickey's memories? Or a computer simulation? We've seen computer worlds a couple times.
Is that a steins gate ost in the video?
Got a theory that probably hasn't been thought of here and its that kingdom hearts 2 and re:com are tied in more then one way a few details are often overlooked about sora and this also ties into the main story of 358/2 and re:coded or possibly even more then that I know that they are all tied together but a theory is that re:coded takes place just after sora wakes up and clears disney town for the first time I think this simply due to a few factors but I could be off a bit with that timeline and it be after kh2 and not during but it could also be during re:com as well due to a few things hmmmm got a lore set to make later I think
I think the timeless river might be less an actual door to the past and more like a door a world that represents the past, and therefore the world has magical properties that tie it to the timeline.
Changing the timeless river can change the past of disney castle, because the timeless river represents the past of disney castle. I dunno Maybe this is just retcon bull.
Doesn't One of the organisation members mention, "Unlike your wizard friend, you have to follow the rules" in kh3?
Them going to the past doesn't affect things though? Isn't it just like the Winnie the Pooh book/an alternate world based on the past?
Merlin >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yensid. he's nothing to merlins power, all talk, while merlin puts out. real magic.
I think we are getting too caught up in the worlds name. It is similar to the 100 acre wood via a book. Only difference is this is a device (almost like a crystal ball).
Maybe this world created from memory sort of like book of prophecy but brain is book
couldnt it be also to do with the stone
My best guess is timeless river is just that "Timeless" It exists outside of time and I think It's only supposed to be accessible to people who originated from that world. Namely Goofy Donald Mickey and Pete. The Disney Kingdom is itself a strange world with strange rules. It is a pure and happy place and I think the heart of the Disney kingdom Answers the wishes of its citizens. No matter how far away they are. Their roots dig deep. Even for pete. I think Timeless River is a memory from the heart of this world itself. Where it was happiest. The corner stone of light wasn't tucked deep under the foundations of a castle. It was out in the open. Unprotected. Because their was no need. This world runs on similar rules to that of Castle Oblivion where the manipulation of memories can be disastrous.
What's more you gain access to other "memories" as you play through the world. Just like in Castle Oblivion.
All this considered. This door does not break the rules of time because it doesn't actually let you travel through time. It lets you travel to the memories of this worlds heart. The biggest piece of evidence for this is Pete has no memory of running into Sora Donald or Goofy. He has no recollection of stealing his own boat at all.
yeah. merlin can break the rules because he time traveled in his movie: the sword in the stone
Merlin,fairy godmother and yen sid ALREADY BREAK THE RULES.also tu rules you're referring to ONLY apply to traveling to the future,not the past
Nah man that's completely wrong. Yx already explained in DDD how it works. Past or future its the same. You MUST leave your body behind to do it and there must be a version of you at the destination. Remember Malificent travelled to the past in union cross only cos there was a version of herself there in data and she only could go back cos she lost her body in kh1. Timless river doesn't need that so its working by its own set of rules that aint been explained
And we know merlin and them break the rules. But Pete aint a wizard or fairy and hes the one that first made the door appear not merlin
First of all,, I want to say it's time travel is confusing; It doesn't follow Novikov's principle and more like inverted paradoxes through Master Xehanort,Ansem,Xemnas(etc) as anomalies setting off alternate tangent effects to produce a multitude of incorrect timelines.
(In a short, a shitload of Butterfly effects)
And its never fucking brought up again xD u til nomura has to flippin rip time travel xehanort out of his fat fuckin ass for dream drop distance....my god. The debates and conversations ive had with my friend for over 15 years about shit like this in kh is just hilarous. I actually laughed seeing the thumbnail since weve gone over this exact convo multiple times xDD
If mickey's so strong why wouldn't his nemesis be ridiculously strong, too? Even though he's an idiot and sold his soul to get out of prison. Probably just doesn't know how to use what he has but he's super loyal and dumb. idk
Merlin has the strongest temporal magic in the series then. Lmao
This is a crackpot theory but stick with me. Both Pete and Merlin are of the same world "Disney Castle". As such they both may have some emotional connection with that world. On top of that, each world has their own heart. Perhaps if someone's emotional connection is strong enough with the heart of a world, they can potentially summon a time travel door to and from the past of these worlds. In other words, it's the world's permission to give access to it's past...I can't think of anything else to support this beyond the key theme of "connected to people's hearts" which is why I say it's nothing more than a theory.
Can anyone give any details that can either support or discredit this theory?
But this is time travel to the past,not the future. Also,timeless river is a separate world,so basically a parallel past
Ok so donald and goofy LIVED IN THAT TIME
They could have lost their bodys and had their old bodys to go back too
Sora Not so much tho
UNLESS ;)