Thanks guys. I'm so glad I came across these things BEFORE I even started taking the lessons from the missionaries. I watched all the anti stuff for 18months before meeting a Mormon. But in that time I also discovered Fairmormon. It was huge for me in terms of getting the other sides of the issues. I guess you'd say I'm fully inoculated for the anti stuff. But I think the main thing is finding personal relationship with Father and Jesus Christ here. And finding empowerment to actually live the gospel. !. And the Holy Ghost is awesome.
@ craig newsome That is very awesome! Glad that you are finding the gospel. However, don't be too hasty to think that you are prepared for everything. Satan will work on you harder and harder. But as you center your life in Christ, you can overcome Satan easily. But it is a lot of work! Satan will even work through good meaning other Christians and Atheists. It is not their fault. Don't try to fight with them, don't try to convert them. Conversion is done through the Holy Ghost entirely. Let them know what you believe. Just be aware that no one is perfect. And I mean NO ONE. The Savior is the only Person ever born who was perfect. If you find that some famous "Mormon" did something very questionable or bad in the past, that is not a reflection on the truthfulness of the gospel. It is not the church of so and so, it is the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints. Silly as it is, I am only just barely coming to terms with that and I've been a member since I was 8(26 years now).
Robert.....thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it. I dont engage very often. And then.....only very briefly. I just want to love the Lord and get on with living the gospel.
That's why we're called the only true and _living_ church on the face of the earth. The word _living_ means that we're in the middle of the restoration. We have come a long way, but we still have a long way to go. We believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God (AoF 9).
@cindybin2001 Then you were told the story that this religion came from Joseph Smith who translated it from golden plates when in reality and the church even admits this now it comes from him throwing a rock in a hat. The church is a lie.
Agreed. I've gone through all the anti stuff I could find just to find the biggest vulnerabilities and then see if there were patches for them. I'm more convinced now than ever though of the goodness of the church and the righteousness of Joseph Smith, who is now one of my all-time heroes. The sad thing is finding all the anti people who are full of hate and deceit in their heart who try and steer people away from something that could really help them (the gospel and the church). I considered all their arguments but at a certain point you have to accept that they are not acting in good faith much of the time and are often dark, negative and hateful people. Be wary!
My story is pretty long, and I won't tell all of it now. I was raised in the Church(baptized at 8), went on a Mission, quickly went inactive, and came back after about 5 years. The first time that I paid an honest tithe in years was LITERALLY the day I met my wife(after paying the tithing). I have a beautiful/amazing wife and 2 boys(2 years and 4 months). Depression anxiety hit me VERY hard about a month and a half ago and hasn't entirely let me go. I also had a pretty serious faith crisis and didn't think I'd be able to stay with the church. But now, even though issues I have aren't exactly resolved, I am in the process of a major Spiritual Awakening. The biggest one I've ever had in my life by far. I want to share the gospel with others. Despite it being hard, despite the fact that my speech isn't as great as most and how it affects my confidence. Despite my high sensitivity for negativity. This is the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints! It is through my Savior that I am saved. He has asked me to do things to both show my commitment to Him, and also to help myself. He is the Savior of the Universe! He atoned for the sins of every man, woman, and child on Earth and everywhere else in the Universe. Past, present, and future! And died for every one of us! The exact SAME Savior as is in the Bible. Just because we know a few additional details or a few details are different, doesn't change that one bit. This Church is a RESTORATION of the gospel. The Bible is hugely important, but it has been altered and mistranslated over time. And written by MAN not GOD! I am where the Savior wants me to be and He is the ultimate judge.
Robert. The biggest spiritual awakening I ever had in 50+ years in the LDS church (born and raised) was to learn that the LDS church was a human fabricated fraud. I resigned my membership 20 years ago and life has never been better---and I'm still with my temple married, non LDS wife....and our 6 kids and 36 grand children and 6 G. Grandchildren are ALL OUT of Mormonism. God certainly DOES work in great and wondrous ways, doesn't He/She/It?
@ Gone Fishin" Good morning(VERY early morning here in Indiana) sir! Thanks very much for your reply. You are on a different journey than I am, and that's alright. Are you still Christian, or did you go Atheist or some other religion? When I "left" before, I was practically an atheist. Or more accurately, I just did not care if there was a God or not. I doubt I will ever leave the church at this point. I know that it is Jesus Christ that is the head of this church. I have read, watched, or listened to MANY MANY sources of anti-Mormon sources and actual Church sources that describe massive errors of judgement in church leadership. This is not the church of Joseph Smith, or Brigham Young, or even Russell M Nelson. It is the Church of JESUS CHRIST. What I've been asked from my Savior to do and the church's core teachings are enough for me.
As a convert who joined the Church as an agnostic and still is one, I can relate. Nothing I studied made me feel the Church is true, but everything I felt supports that it is in a meaningful sense.
Excerpts from a talk in 2008 General conference from Elder M. Russell Ballard: "President Spencer W. Kimball asked members of the Church to lengthen their stride in spreading the gospel and sharing gospel truth. He asked every stake in the world to increase the number of missionaries, and he led the Church into using media to help convey our message to hundreds of millions of people throughout the earth. During his 12 years as President of the Church, nearly 200,000 missionaries served full-time missions. Worldwide Church membership almost doubled, and the number of stakes nearly tripled. Missionary work was opened or reopened in many countries, and the miracle of conversion was happening in many lands despite every adversarial attempt to thwart the Lord’s work or discourage the Lord’s workers. A little more than two decades have passed since the end of President Kimball’s mortal ministry. During that period of time we have experienced unprecedented prominence in the worldwide community of faith. Probably not coincidentally, we have also experienced unprecedented ideological attacks on our people, our history, and our doctrine through the media. And yet the Church continues to grow. Membership has more than doubled again-from 5.9 million in 1985 to more than 13 million today. And last year the one millionth missionary to serve during this dispensation was called. Now, my brothers and sisters, my purpose in this brief review of Joseph’s prophetic vision of the destiny of this Church and its literal fulfillment through the decades is to remind us of this simple truth: “The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught. “For God doth not walk in crooked paths, … neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round. “Remember … that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men” (D&C 3:1-3).
You needed a testimony? Here is one, I believe with my whole mind that Joseph Smith was a fraud who told stories, defrauded people and engaged in polygamy without his wife's knowledge all because his god told him so. The Book of Mormon was a farce which he attempted to copy right and sell. Since no one wanted the stupid book he found an easy mark to fund his book because his god told him so. How did you like my testimony? I really believe my testimony.
I'm an actual Atheist if you would like to ask me questions please feel free... *I can only speak for myself and do NOT represent all Atheists *I will be respectful/polite I ask you are the same to me. *I will NOT try to deconvert you. Please don't try to convert me. I want Theists to have a chance to ask questions without worrying about getting into a debate or confrontation. My hope is, that understanding will lead to respecting each other, even if we don't agree.
@@matthewdawson9364 There are a lot of ways to take the question _"how do you feel about the fact that there are so many religions out there"_ Rather then guessing can you please rephrase for me please. Yes I have explored many different faiths. You might be surprised to learn Atheist are hands down the most knowledgeable demographic when it comes to world religions www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious
@@bob15479 depends on the God claim. Also, technically Agnostic/Gnostic is a knowledge claim. Where Atheist/Theist is a belief claim. So you can be an Agnostic Theist (I don't know therefore I believe) or a Gnostic Atheist (I know therefore I do NOT believe). The concepts got muddled over the years and there is a movement among some atheists and agnostics to clear it up. However, I really don't care about labels that much. Because a label has no bearing on my stance.
Also as a former atheist I know how hard it is to accept heavenly father but when all these things happened and your testimony develops, you can't deny it anymore.
Does anyone know if the facebook page they cite of "Uplift Study group" has been changed at this point??? it is not an active page or group on facebook now, but there is a group called "Uplift Community of Faith" which is an LDS focused group.
The reason that he fell away from atheism was that he was never truly converted in the first place. He wasn't reading his Carl Sagan 30 minutes per day. He just fell away because he was lazy and didn't want to have to think and develop a new moral structure. [in case you are wondering - yes, this is sarcasm - no, I'm not trying to diss this guy. Glad that he found what works for him. Some of us who have left the mormon faith are really tired of being told that we never really had a testimony or that we didn't try hard enough].
You are making the assumption that the deeper one goes into atheism the less likely he is to come back, which is not true. Many have plunged it depths, found its arguments very lacking in fact, reason, or common sense, and have returned. And it isn't a matter of finding "what works for me" it's a question of what is true and not true - it's a truth quest.
Question for Leo: You mentioned you were afraid you would "lose" your wife if she were to find out about you not believing. Do you feel there is an unhealthy dynamic in the church where there is so much emphasis on required covenants in order to be together forever (Family "can" be together forever, not families "will" be together forever), to the point where a spouse would leave the other spouse over non belief, even if the non believing spouse lived every LDS requirement, they could not be admitted in the temple because they don't believe in the restored gospel (and assume they would no longer believe in the temple covenants either). So, if this spouse maintained great values but the only thing different is they don't believe in the truth claims of the LDS church anymore, do you think there is an unhealthy dynamic that even for that situation it is in jeopardy because of the fear and emphasis on having to be the perfect temple family in the church? I've seen so many broken families over this, and would love to hear your thoughts about that subject. I would be encouraged if there was a de-emphasis on the literal belief part, and more just focused on your marriage should come first and a disagreement about religion should not play a factor in that. Hope my question makes sense.
Hey Jason, I apologize for the slow reply. UA-cam doesn't do a good job of notifying me of questions so I'm grateful I came back to this video and saw your comment.
You asked about my fear of losing my spouse and if I feel that would be an "unhealthy dynamic". In Steven Hassan's BITE model, he talks about Emotional Control in cults. Specifically, he says that cults use emotion-stopping techniques and how they use fear or shunning techniques to prevent people from leaving. Hassan's critique is interesting because when I look at any place of employment, club, or other organization, there are many people in these groups that experience these exact same things. For example, part of the motivation that people have for working hard in their jobs is a fear of stagnation, or of letting a boss, down or of being fired. Humans are social animals and we crave belonging. In other words, rejection is painful, and humans fear the pain that comes from rejection. So, when I felt some fear of losing my wife, this isn't emotional control created by the Church. It's simply a human emotion, driving me not to hurt someone I care about, and potentially losing that person. This fear of losing a spouse goes both ways, by the way, and I believe it's a legitimate concern. I personally know of many marriages that have ended because the non-believing spouse chooses to leave. I've watched one marriage deteriorate over the past couple years as the non-believing spouse has started to love outside the marriage. I was just notified by the believer that the non-believing spouse has left and is filing for divorce. Another non-believer told me over the phone that she was so angry and bitter, that her accusations overwhelmed her ex-husband, and he had to file for divorce. She actually admitted to me over the phone that the divorce was probably her fault, because of how angry and bitter she was. She then proceeded to blame the church for that anger and bitterness, but she also took responsibility and said that she could have probably done a better job at finding healthier ways to process those emotions, instead of unloading everything on her ex-husband and in front of her children. Mixed-faith marriages are messy and extremely difficult to navigate. In one of our Uplift presentations we talk about a concept we call "Charitable Exchange". If a believing and non-believing spouse can meet frequently and talk through the beliefs that they each value/cherish the most, and then commit not to deconstruct (tear-down) each other's most valued/cherished beliefs, that can create an environment of mutual trust and love. Believers can say and do divisive things that push disbelievers faster and further away from the Church. This sort of insensitivity is corrosive in relationships and believers have just as much a responsibility to try and honor the journey of the disbeliever, as the disbeliever should honor the journey of the believer. Sorry for the brain dump. I hope some of these thoughts made sense. I have more to share, and would be happy to continue the conversation. Feel free to email me and we can schedule a phone call. Take care!
I would like to request a video idea... perhaps you guys could all give a video talking about BYU, like what kind of college it is and how you were able to get in! I’ve heard a lot of rumors saying you need a 4.3gpa to attend and you must be a seminary graduate. But honestly, BYU is my dream school and I’m going to be crushed if these rumors are true and I won’t have a chance at getting in...
There seems to be a lack of understanding and misconceptions from those who have never studied the doctrine. I wonder if this contributes to what Kwaku mentioned about how those leaving the church often turn to atheism. If a person is solidly convinced that the Trinity can't describe God, that rules out any Christian alternative.
Non-mormon here but I like the channel. To follow up with a comment Kwaku had mentioned - I'm curious if you can point out the Book of Mormon passages that prove it is divine revelation ?
Proof? Absolute proof comes only in theoretical mathematics and limited scientific research. You can study the book. And see many evidences. But if you mean, where does a verse in the BoM without question prove to you and everyone that it's true, you're surely gonna be disappointed. The book as a whole should be studied, its contents pondered. Likewise, no single bible verse proves the Bible is true, consists of godly revelations, and inerrant. These are complex books. It's best to study both internal and external evidence. Combined with prayer and faith.
The assertion was made that there are specific passages in the Book of Mormon that prove it as divine - so what are these passages ? I am only sincerely asking
@@SuperSaiyanKrillin I think kwaku was more trying to say that it's really interesting how the BoM still makes sense even though it came from a farmer with a 2nd grade education. One example of this is the use of chiasmuses in the BoM. This is a hebraic writing form that exists in the BoM despite not being known to the west until later
Fairmormon lol bunch posers there are no scholars in LDS Nathan Vani! Good luck they will promise the sky and fail to deliver anything truthful. SAD group! Chongo make pee pee in Sand and can prove it!
12:56 You made the comment that Doubt is a bad thing, which I disagree. Feelings can be easily manipulated and influenced by expectations put on by others. Doubt comes from experience and knowledge and develops over time and is harder to manipulate. Here is a great quote on doubt. "Doubt is your intellectual conscience pleading with you to be honest with yourself" Peter Boghossian
Hi Layne Jones, thanks for your comment. I align with Adam Miller when it comes to doubt. Check out what he said here: ua-cam.com/video/vlDyVfdAS3k/v-deo.html
In at least some cases the LDS movement has defined it as being evil: Renlund, 2018: "That doubt which feeds and grows upon itself, and, with stubborn indolence, breeds more doubt, is evil… Stagnant doubt does not lead to knowing the reality of the Savior, Jesus Christ; it does not lead to really knowing that we have a kind, loving Heavenly Father. We can come to know the truthfulness of this latter-day work, but it requires that we choose faith, not doubt, and that we go to the right sources for our answers"
Speaking from my personal experience as he did. I totally agree "Doubt is Life's way of signaling that you need something". For a rational, critical thinker doubt is a signal for you to get more information because as I quoted above. Your intellectual conscience is saying there isn't enough information to move forward. The LDS beliefs just grew more irrational the more I learned about the non faith promoting narrative Not taught from the Church Correlation Dapartment. For example why would the Temple Endowment change after being restored. Not just procedural items but actual oaths and signs changed, if they were from God. Why would leaders who had the ear of God , be so racist for so many years. (U.S. Supreme Court Figured it out sooner). Why would the Book of Mormon Isiah chapters have King James Bible 1769 translation errors unique to that addition in the book. The reason for all three examples because it is Man Made. To see this Church funded UA-cam channel try and down play the power of Doubt is what causes me to speak out.
@@dirtbikeutah9615 Doubt leads to understanding. If I doubt something that is true and I keep investigating, I'm more likely to discover what is true. Truth has nothing to fear from doubt and everything to fear from gullibility.
DirkBikeUtah - Peter Boghossian's quote makes zero sense. It's based on the assumption that the "honest" part of yourself can only be led to atheism and doubt. But the "honest" part of myself, from my birth over many decades, when I listen closely, is led to faith and not to doubt. And given that 93% of the world's 7.2 Billion population are not atheist or agnostic, I have a lot of company. And feelings come into play in any form or truth communication, we are not robots and automatons. The Lord Jesus Christ himself said "Behold I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart." I'll go with that, that leads to knowledge, and salvation.
Atheism isn't saying that you're pretty sure there's not a god (though some atheists are like that). Atheism is about saying that you're pretty sure that there's no testable evidence for god, therefore you don't believe. Saying your "sure" (or "pretty sure" in this case) is a claim of knowledge. Atheism addresses belief, not knowledge. What atheism does claim to be "pretty sure" of is that you're specific god doesn't exist. And by "you're specific god", I don't mean the Mormon god specifically, but any religious claims of god. Any western religion has "bold" claims. And for that reason, "bold claims" can't be used as a way of saying Mormonism is special. Saying you're not a member of a specific religion is in no way the same as saying you don't believe in a god.
The spectrum isnt "Theist, Agnostic, Atheist." It's "Gnostic-Theist, Agnostic-Theist, Agnostic-Atheist, Gnostic-Atheist." Gnostic refers to knowledge. Theism and atheism are beliefs which can be gnostic or not depending on whether those beliefs are known to be true. Thus everyone in the world is agnostic whether they believe in a god or not.
@@stardustgirl2904 Atheism itself is the lack of belief in a god, not claiming there is no god. Also, Earth and it's inhabitants aren't evidence for god any more than the bible is. We know a great deal about how Earth formed and how humans evolved from earlier ancestors. The evidence for both are staggering, specific and extensive. We just aren't yet sure how life began although there are a few prominent ideas on how. One need only see for themselves.
Leo is my 3rd or 4th cousin (sorry, I'm not exactly sure. Your Grandma Winegar once said that her late husband's mother was a Pace. There were a lot of Pace girls back in those days. Edwin Pace, Sr had 2 wives and 21 children - a majority were girls). When he said he moved to Bountiful, he moved into his Grandma Winegar's home - which is immediately east of my home, our backyards touch. He comes from a great family, which we dearly love. Nice to see you Leo. We miss you guys, especially since your parents moved. It sounds like you're happy and doing good things. You have experienced an interesting journey. I had a similar one in 1985 - 86. Thanks for sharing. The Church is working hard to become more open about their history. I recognize that people (and organizations) only want to present their "best" self\selves to others, not wanting to discuss their warts or scars. However, in today's world, that "less than positive" information is a simple click away. Facts can be and are difficult without the proper background in history, culture, or multiple other factors The negative stuff I see online now was much harder to research prior to the internet. That is one reason why I have such a large personal library. Steve Harper is a great resource. I'm glad he helped. I just wanted to say "Hi", from the Pace Family. Gordon Pace I'll be check out the web site you gave out.
hermeneutics - the discipline of properly interpreting Scripture. This is focused on the objective that their is absolute truth to be discovered in any passage of the Bible.
Re: The comment that is a problem that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who leave are more likely to become atheist because other religions have been proven wrong in their minds. In D&C where we get the most detail about who goes where, atheists aren't described as being worse off than non-members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. An apostate won't get punished more by God for switching to atheism as far as I can tell.
John 1:1 : "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. " doesn't that mean Jesus was God because in the the word was and is Jesus?
Liar Kevlar you idiotic god had a temporal beginning within time. Your god fails the test for a god, ergo he is not a god but a creation of a well known fraud, and perverted charlatan called Joseph Smith.
I guess I have to clarify for you. By in the beginning, I am referring to the creation of this world. Also Christ is a God and was with Heavenly Father who is God during the creation of this world. John 1:1-3 "In the beginning (Creation) was the Word (Christ) and the Word was God. The same (Christ) was in the beginning (creation) 'with' God (Heavenly Father). All things were made by him; (Christ) and without him (Christ) was not any thing made that was made." see also: Ephesians 3:9 and col. 1:16,17. Gen. 1:26,27.
Kwaku, you said that if a Mormon leaves the Mormon church they aren't going to become an evangelical Christian (among the other religions you listed) because it's been proven not true. Can you give me a few ways it's been proven not true?
Sociologists have studied this, and as it turns out converts to the Mormon church are more likely to move on to another religion whereas those raised in the LDS faith are more likely to become atheist (about 70%). Mormons leaving the faith who do so out of studying the historical issues are likely to study things like the documentary hypothesis and/or "the Holy Fable" and likely to come away from that skeptical of a literal interpretation of the Bible which is common within most evangelical Christian communities.
oh man, an interview from an alleged ex-atheist with absolutely no substance on the arguments from atheism. Leo, I respect your journey and am happy you feel at peace with your beliefs, but you are a living straw man for the atheistic world view. If you are reading this and questioning your faith, it is ok, you are not damned. Check out TheCosmicSkeptic for the steel man arguments for atheism.
The fact that he kept going to church makes me think he wanted it to still be true. When he reached out and got an explanation that justified his concerns he was happy to go back. What's interesting is it did not seem like he ever had the anger stage that many of us go through.
You see both you and Dark_Winter have to disingenuously go after Leo's experience with atheism and attack it as not complete and supposedly not fully sincere in the degree of his atheism, because atheism stands or falls on the dark false scenario that once you plunge its depths you have passed over "a bridge too far" and can never return because of its supposed fact and irrefutable logic. When in reality atheism's arguments are based on the most flimsy and fleeting philosophical ideas. An awesome book to read on this subject is "There is a God" by Hyrum Lewis, which breaks down in the atheist's own language all the foundational atheistic beliefs and demonstrates how flimsy they really are. And thank God so many have come back to the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints from a foray away into atheism.
@@dark_winter8238 I experienced a lot of anger. I didn't have a chance to talk about that in this interview, but I definitely felt it. Thanks for your comment.
Augustin, thanks for weighing-in. For the purpose of this interview I had limited time and provided a brief recap of my experience. I don't mind sharing more of my journey with those who are sincerely interested.
Mormonism survives on members taking their opinion to be doctrine. Mormonism will not stop members from making up their own doctrine because what are they going to fill it with.
Thanks guys. I'm so glad I came across these things BEFORE I even started taking the lessons from the missionaries. I watched all the anti stuff for 18months before meeting a Mormon. But in that time I also discovered Fairmormon. It was huge for me in terms of getting the other sides of the issues. I guess you'd say I'm fully inoculated for the anti stuff. But I think the main thing is finding personal relationship with Father and Jesus Christ here. And finding empowerment to actually live the gospel. !. And the Holy Ghost is awesome.
@ craig newsome
That is very awesome! Glad that you are finding the gospel. However, don't be too hasty to think that you are prepared for everything. Satan will work on you harder and harder. But as you center your life in Christ, you can overcome Satan easily. But it is a lot of work! Satan will even work through good meaning other Christians and Atheists. It is not their fault. Don't try to fight with them, don't try to convert them. Conversion is done through the Holy Ghost entirely. Let them know what you believe. Just be aware that no one is perfect. And I mean NO ONE. The Savior is the only Person ever born who was perfect. If you find that some famous "Mormon" did something very questionable or bad in the past, that is not a reflection on the truthfulness of the gospel. It is not the church of so and so, it is the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints. Silly as it is, I am only just barely coming to terms with that and I've been a member since I was 8(26 years now).
Robert.....thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it. I dont engage very often. And then.....only very briefly. I just want to love the Lord and get on with living the gospel.
That's why we're called the only true and _living_ church on the face of the earth. The word _living_ means that we're in the middle of the restoration. We have come a long way, but we still have a long way to go. We believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God (AoF 9).
@cindybin2001 Then you were told the story that this religion came from Joseph Smith who translated it from golden plates when in reality and the church even admits this now it comes from him throwing a rock in a hat. The church is a lie.
Agreed. I've gone through all the anti stuff I could find just to find the biggest vulnerabilities and then see if there were patches for them. I'm more convinced now than ever though of the goodness of the church and the righteousness of Joseph Smith, who is now one of my all-time heroes. The sad thing is finding all the anti people who are full of hate and deceit in their heart who try and steer people away from something that could really help them (the gospel and the church). I considered all their arguments but at a certain point you have to accept that they are not acting in good faith much of the time and are often dark, negative and hateful people. Be wary!
My story is pretty long, and I won't tell all of it now. I was raised in the Church(baptized at 8), went on a Mission, quickly went inactive, and came back after about 5 years. The first time that I paid an honest tithe in years was LITERALLY the day I met my wife(after paying the tithing). I have a beautiful/amazing wife and 2 boys(2 years and 4 months). Depression anxiety hit me VERY hard about a month and a half ago and hasn't entirely let me go. I also had a pretty serious faith crisis and didn't think I'd be able to stay with the church. But now, even though issues I have aren't exactly resolved, I am in the process of a major Spiritual Awakening. The biggest one I've ever had in my life by far. I want to share the gospel with others. Despite it being hard, despite the fact that my speech isn't as great as most and how it affects my confidence. Despite my high sensitivity for negativity. This is the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints! It is through my Savior that I am saved. He has asked me to do things to both show my commitment to Him, and also to help myself. He is the Savior of the Universe! He atoned for the sins of every man, woman, and child on Earth and everywhere else in the Universe. Past, present, and future! And died for every one of us! The exact SAME Savior as is in the Bible. Just because we know a few additional details or a few details are different, doesn't change that one bit. This Church is a RESTORATION of the gospel. The Bible is hugely important, but it has been altered and mistranslated over time. And written by MAN not GOD! I am where the Savior wants me to be and He is the ultimate judge.
Thank you for sharing your story, Brother. I hope we can connect in the future.
@ Leo Winegar
You are very welcome! And yeah, I'd very much like to connect!
Pay me ten percent and you will be blessed 1000 fold. Ouch that is called fraud!
Robert.
The biggest spiritual awakening I ever had in 50+ years in the LDS church (born and raised) was to learn that the LDS church was a human fabricated fraud. I resigned my membership 20 years ago and life has never been better---and I'm still with my temple married, non LDS wife....and our 6 kids and 36 grand children and 6 G. Grandchildren are ALL OUT of Mormonism. God certainly DOES work in great and wondrous ways, doesn't He/She/It?
@ Gone Fishin"
Good morning(VERY early morning here in Indiana) sir! Thanks very much for your reply. You are on a different journey than I am, and that's alright. Are you still Christian, or did you go Atheist or some other religion? When I "left" before, I was practically an atheist. Or more accurately, I just did not care if there was a God or not.
I doubt I will ever leave the church at this point. I know that it is Jesus Christ that is the head of this church. I have read, watched, or listened to MANY MANY sources of anti-Mormon sources and actual Church sources that describe massive errors of judgement in church leadership. This is not the church of Joseph Smith, or Brigham Young, or even Russell M Nelson. It is the Church of JESUS CHRIST. What I've been asked from my Savior to do and the church's core teachings are enough for me.
As a convert who joined the Church as an agnostic and still is one, I can relate. Nothing I studied made me feel the Church is true, but everything I felt supports that it is in a meaningful sense.
Excerpts from a talk in 2008 General conference from Elder M. Russell Ballard:
"President Spencer W. Kimball asked members of the Church to lengthen their stride in spreading the gospel and sharing gospel truth. He asked every stake in the world to increase the number of missionaries, and he led the Church into using media to help convey our message to hundreds of millions of people throughout the earth. During his 12 years as President of the Church, nearly 200,000 missionaries served full-time missions. Worldwide Church membership almost doubled, and the number of stakes nearly tripled. Missionary work was opened or reopened in many countries, and the miracle of conversion was happening in many lands despite every adversarial attempt to thwart the Lord’s work or discourage the Lord’s workers.
A little more than two decades have passed since the end of President Kimball’s mortal ministry. During that period of time we have experienced unprecedented prominence in the worldwide community of faith. Probably not coincidentally, we have also experienced unprecedented ideological attacks on our people, our history, and our doctrine through the media. And yet the Church continues to grow. Membership has more than doubled again-from 5.9 million in 1985 to more than 13 million today. And last year the one millionth missionary to serve during this dispensation was called.
Now, my brothers and sisters, my purpose in this brief review of Joseph’s prophetic vision of the destiny of this Church and its literal fulfillment through the decades is to remind us of this simple truth:
“The works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught.
“For God doth not walk in crooked paths, … neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round.
“Remember … that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men” (D&C 3:1-3).
Thanks for making this, Kwaku and Leo- as always- your stuff is extremely good.
Thanks Morgan. Have a good weekend.
I really needed this right now. Thank you so much!
You needed a testimony? Here is one, I believe with my whole mind that Joseph Smith was a fraud who told stories, defrauded people and engaged in polygamy without his wife's knowledge all because his god told him so. The Book of Mormon was a farce which he attempted to copy right and sell. Since no one wanted the stupid book he found an easy mark to fund his book because his god told him so. How did you like my testimony? I really believe my testimony.
Hey Garrett, I hope we can connect when you have time. Please don't hesitate to reach out.
Keep questioning and never feel bad about using skepticism. Best of luck to you.
@@johnpauldaigneault8983 By you saying that , you are fulfilling prophecy. GOD Bless.
John Paul Daigneault Here’s all the people who asked:
Wait there’s no one here
Love you guys and the videos! Keep up the great work; Your messages are truly inspirational and always spiritual ❤️
Thank you, Paul. I hope we can connect! Have a nice weekend.
I'm an actual Atheist if you would like to ask me questions please feel free...
*I can only speak for myself and do NOT represent all Atheists
*I will be respectful/polite I ask you are the same to me.
*I will NOT try to deconvert you. Please don't try to convert me.
I want Theists to have a chance to ask questions without worrying about getting into a debate or confrontation. My hope is, that understanding will lead to respecting each other, even if we don't agree.
@@matthewdawson9364 There are a lot of ways to take the question _"how do you feel about the fact that there are so many religions out there"_
Rather then guessing can you please rephrase for me please.
Yes I have explored many different faiths. You might be surprised to learn Atheist are hands down the most knowledgeable demographic when it comes to world religions
www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious
Sorry no questions but I really like your profile picture. I had that same toy from the Black Hole growing up and I loved it.
@@davidlemon7543 thanks most people don't know who it is.
Do you assert that there is no God? What not be agnostic if you can't prove God DOESN'T exist.
@@bob15479 depends on the God claim.
Also, technically Agnostic/Gnostic is a knowledge claim. Where Atheist/Theist is a belief claim. So you can be an Agnostic Theist (I don't know therefore I believe) or a Gnostic Atheist (I know therefore I do NOT believe).
The concepts got muddled over the years and there is a movement among some atheists and agnostics to clear it up.
However, I really don't care about labels that much. Because a label has no bearing on my stance.
Also as a former atheist I know how hard it is to accept heavenly father but when all these things happened and your testimony develops, you can't deny it anymore.
It would be great to connect with you sometime. Please send me a friend request or an email.
Does anyone know if the facebook page they cite of "Uplift Study group" has been changed at this point??? it is not an active page or group on facebook now, but there is a group called "Uplift Community of Faith" which is an LDS focused group.
3 Mormons, Have you ever tried to get BYU professor Daniel C. Peterson on your show?
David Lemon I’d love to see that
The best way to learn about atheism is to listen to the atheist experience & study evolution! It's amazing how much science is out there.
The reason that he fell away from atheism was that he was never truly converted in the first place. He wasn't reading his Carl Sagan 30 minutes per day. He just fell away because he was lazy and didn't want to have to think and develop a new moral structure. [in case you are wondering - yes, this is sarcasm - no, I'm not trying to diss this guy. Glad that he found what works for him. Some of us who have left the mormon faith are really tired of being told that we never really had a testimony or that we didn't try hard enough].
You are making the assumption that the deeper one goes into atheism the less likely he is to come back, which is not true. Many have plunged it depths, found its arguments very lacking in fact, reason, or common sense, and have returned. And it isn't a matter of finding "what works for me" it's a question of what is true and not true - it's a truth quest.
Great interview, thanks for that.
Thank you, Mr. Barron :) Have a good one and God bless you.
You did great Kwaku on your debate with Dr.James White. Keep it up. Very inspiring to see you defend the faith.Thanks brother!
JWJ BROS and an amazing debate with a Christian named Aaron at UVU
JWJ BROS and an amazing debate with a Christian named Aaron at UVU
Wonderful job, Leo!
Thanks, Neal haha. Have a good weekend brother.
hey, I am currently struggling with similar things myself, could you send me what the professor said?
Hi Dani, I'm so sorry for the slow reply. I'd be happy to speak with you on the phone. Can you send me an email or look me up on Facebook?
You should not have let him share his email.
Hi LK! :) I don't mind. I get a lot of spam, but I filter it out. Have a good day.
Hey i think you guys areawesomand wish I could talk to you guys in person. Keep it up! :)
Question for Leo: You mentioned you were afraid you would "lose" your wife if she were to find out about you not believing. Do you feel there is an unhealthy dynamic in the church where there is so much emphasis on required covenants in order to be together forever (Family "can" be together forever, not families "will" be together forever), to the point where a spouse would leave the other spouse over non belief, even if the non believing spouse lived every LDS requirement, they could not be admitted in the temple because they don't believe in the restored gospel (and assume they would no longer believe in the temple covenants either). So, if this spouse maintained great values but the only thing different is they don't believe in the truth claims of the LDS church anymore, do you think there is an unhealthy dynamic that even for that situation it is in jeopardy because of the fear and emphasis on having to be the perfect temple family in the church? I've seen so many broken families over this, and would love to hear your thoughts about that subject. I would be encouraged if there was a de-emphasis on the literal belief part, and more just focused on your marriage should come first and a disagreement about religion should not play a factor in that. Hope my question makes sense.
Hey Jason, I apologize for the slow reply. UA-cam doesn't do a good job of notifying me of questions so I'm grateful I came back to this video and saw your comment.
You asked about my fear of losing my spouse and if I feel that would be an "unhealthy dynamic". In Steven Hassan's BITE model, he talks about Emotional Control in cults. Specifically, he says that cults use emotion-stopping techniques and how they use fear or shunning techniques to prevent people from leaving.
Hassan's critique is interesting because when I look at any place of employment, club, or other organization, there are many people in these groups that experience these exact same things. For example, part of the motivation that people have for working hard in their jobs is a fear of stagnation, or of letting a boss, down or of being fired. Humans are social animals and we crave belonging. In other words, rejection is painful, and humans fear the pain that comes from rejection.
So, when I felt some fear of losing my wife, this isn't emotional control created by the Church. It's simply a human emotion, driving me not to hurt someone I care about, and potentially losing that person.
This fear of losing a spouse goes both ways, by the way, and I believe it's a legitimate concern. I personally know of many marriages that have ended because the non-believing spouse chooses to leave. I've watched one marriage deteriorate over the past couple years as the non-believing spouse has started to love outside the marriage. I was just notified by the believer that the non-believing spouse has left and is filing for divorce.
Another non-believer told me over the phone that she was so angry and bitter, that her accusations overwhelmed her ex-husband, and he had to file for divorce. She actually admitted to me over the phone that the divorce was probably her fault, because of how angry and bitter she was. She then proceeded to blame the church for that anger and bitterness, but she also took responsibility and said that she could have probably done a better job at finding healthier ways to process those emotions, instead of unloading everything on her ex-husband and in front of her children.
Mixed-faith marriages are messy and extremely difficult to navigate. In one of our Uplift presentations we talk about a concept we call "Charitable Exchange". If a believing and non-believing spouse can meet frequently and talk through the beliefs that they each value/cherish the most, and then commit not to deconstruct (tear-down) each other's most valued/cherished beliefs, that can create an environment of mutual trust and love.
Believers can say and do divisive things that push disbelievers faster and further away from the Church. This sort of insensitivity is corrosive in relationships and believers have just as much a responsibility to try and honor the journey of the disbeliever, as the disbeliever should honor the journey of the believer.
Sorry for the brain dump. I hope some of these thoughts made sense. I have more to share, and would be happy to continue the conversation. Feel free to email me and we can schedule a phone call. Take care!
I would like to request a video idea... perhaps you guys could all give a video talking about BYU, like what kind of college it is and how you were able to get in! I’ve heard a lot of rumors saying you need a 4.3gpa to attend and you must be a seminary graduate. But honestly, BYU is my dream school and I’m going to be crushed if these rumors are true and I won’t have a chance at getting in...
These videos always speak to both sides. Keep up the good work!
There seems to be a lack of understanding and misconceptions from those who have never studied the doctrine. I wonder if this contributes to what Kwaku mentioned about how those leaving the church often turn to atheism. If a person is solidly convinced that the Trinity can't describe God, that rules out any Christian alternative.
Non-mormon here but I like the channel. To follow up with a comment Kwaku had mentioned - I'm curious if you can point out the Book of Mormon passages that prove it is divine revelation ?
The website fairmormon has a page full of evidences for the BoM and other stuff
Proof? Absolute proof comes only in theoretical mathematics and limited scientific research.
You can study the book. And see many evidences. But if you mean, where does a verse in the BoM without question prove to you and everyone that it's true, you're surely gonna be disappointed.
The book as a whole should be studied, its contents pondered. Likewise, no single bible verse proves the Bible is true, consists of godly revelations, and inerrant.
These are complex books. It's best to study both internal and external evidence. Combined with prayer and faith.
The assertion was made that there are specific passages in the Book of Mormon that prove it as divine - so what are these passages ? I am only sincerely asking
@@SuperSaiyanKrillin I think kwaku was more trying to say that it's really interesting how the BoM still makes sense even though it came from a farmer with a 2nd grade education. One example of this is the use of chiasmuses in the BoM. This is a hebraic writing form that exists in the BoM despite not being known to the west until later
Fairmormon lol bunch posers there are no scholars in LDS Nathan Vani! Good luck they will promise the sky and fail to deliver anything truthful. SAD group! Chongo make pee pee in Sand and can prove it!
12:56 You made the comment that Doubt is a bad thing, which I disagree. Feelings can be easily manipulated and influenced by expectations put on by others. Doubt comes from experience and knowledge and develops over time and is harder to manipulate. Here is a great quote on doubt. "Doubt is your intellectual conscience pleading with you to be honest with yourself" Peter Boghossian
Hi Layne Jones, thanks for your comment. I align with Adam Miller when it comes to doubt. Check out what he said here: ua-cam.com/video/vlDyVfdAS3k/v-deo.html
In at least some cases the LDS movement has defined it as being evil: Renlund, 2018: "That doubt which feeds and grows upon itself, and, with stubborn indolence, breeds more doubt, is evil… Stagnant doubt does not lead to knowing the reality of the Savior, Jesus Christ; it does not lead to really knowing that we have a kind, loving Heavenly Father. We can come to know the truthfulness of this latter-day work, but it requires that we choose faith, not doubt, and that we go to the right sources for our answers"
Speaking from my personal experience as he did. I totally agree "Doubt is Life's way of signaling that you need something". For a rational, critical thinker doubt is a signal for you to get more information because as I quoted above. Your intellectual conscience is saying there isn't enough information to move forward. The LDS beliefs just grew more irrational the more I learned about the non faith promoting narrative Not taught from the Church Correlation Dapartment. For example why would the Temple Endowment change after being restored. Not just procedural items but actual oaths and signs changed, if they were from God. Why would leaders who had the ear of God , be so racist for so many years. (U.S. Supreme Court Figured it out sooner). Why would the Book of Mormon Isiah chapters have King James Bible 1769 translation errors unique to that addition in the book. The reason for all three examples because it is Man Made. To see this Church funded UA-cam channel try and down play the power of Doubt is what causes me to speak out.
@@dirtbikeutah9615
Doubt leads to understanding. If I doubt something that is true and I keep investigating, I'm more likely to discover what is true. Truth has nothing to fear from doubt and everything to fear from gullibility.
DirkBikeUtah - Peter Boghossian's quote makes zero sense. It's based on the assumption that the "honest" part of yourself can only be led to atheism and doubt. But the "honest" part of myself, from my birth over many decades, when I listen closely, is led to faith and not to doubt. And given that 93% of the world's 7.2 Billion population are not atheist or agnostic, I have a lot of company. And feelings come into play in any form or truth communication, we are not robots and automatons. The Lord Jesus Christ himself said "Behold I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart." I'll go with that, that leads to knowledge, and salvation.
We need Mimi to bring the hugging in
Atheism isn't saying that you're pretty sure there's not a god (though some atheists are like that). Atheism is about saying that you're pretty sure that there's no testable evidence for god, therefore you don't believe. Saying your "sure" (or "pretty sure" in this case) is a claim of knowledge. Atheism addresses belief, not knowledge. What atheism does claim to be "pretty sure" of is that you're specific god doesn't exist. And by "you're specific god", I don't mean the Mormon god specifically, but any religious claims of god.
Any western religion has "bold" claims. And for that reason, "bold claims" can't be used as a way of saying Mormonism is special.
Saying you're not a member of a specific religion is in no way the same as saying you don't believe in a god.
A non-resistant, non-believer...right? :) Nice to meet you, Spectrum. Have a good weekend.
I think it would be more intellectually honest for Atheists to be agnostics.
The spectrum isnt "Theist, Agnostic, Atheist." It's "Gnostic-Theist, Agnostic-Theist, Agnostic-Atheist, Gnostic-Atheist." Gnostic refers to knowledge. Theism and atheism are beliefs which can be gnostic or not depending on whether those beliefs are known to be true. Thus everyone in the world is agnostic whether they believe in a god or not.
I don't understand why people think that there is no God! When evidence of him is everywhere, we live on a planet in the middle of outer space!
@@stardustgirl2904
Atheism itself is the lack of belief in a god, not claiming there is no god. Also, Earth and it's inhabitants aren't evidence for god any more than the bible is. We know a great deal about how Earth formed and how humans evolved from earlier ancestors. The evidence for both are staggering, specific and extensive. We just aren't yet sure how life began although there are a few prominent ideas on how. One need only see for themselves.
Leo is my 3rd or 4th cousin (sorry, I'm not exactly sure. Your Grandma Winegar once said that her late husband's mother was a Pace. There were a lot of Pace girls back in those days. Edwin Pace, Sr had 2 wives and 21 children - a majority were girls).
When he said he moved to Bountiful, he moved into his Grandma Winegar's home - which is immediately east of my home, our backyards touch. He comes from a great family, which we dearly love.
Nice to see you Leo. We miss you guys, especially since your parents moved. It sounds like you're happy and doing good things. You have experienced an interesting journey. I had a similar one in 1985 - 86. Thanks for sharing.
The Church is working hard to become more open about their history. I recognize that people (and organizations) only want to present their "best" self\selves to others, not wanting to discuss their warts or scars. However, in today's world, that "less than positive" information is a simple click away. Facts can be and are difficult without the proper background in history, culture, or multiple other factors
The negative stuff I see online now was much harder to research prior to the internet. That is one reason why I have such a large personal library.
Steve Harper is a great resource. I'm glad he helped.
I just wanted to say "Hi", from the Pace Family.
Gordon Pace
I'll be check out the web site you gave out.
Hi Gordon, thank you for that wonderful message. It's nice to hear from you, and hope we can meet/interact in Uplift.
You find what you seek🧡💜💛💙💚❤
hermeneutics - the discipline of properly interpreting Scripture. This is focused on the objective that their is absolute truth to be discovered in any passage of the Bible.
Divorce is more painful than becoming an atheist.
Great video!
Jonathan te eh estado buscando por favor escríbeme, te extraño!
Katherine Dasia who are you? I’m not Jonathan actually I’m his son.
Katherine Dasia please don’t talk about this outside of UA-cam please
@@shamojj don't worry I won't, I'm a friend of his when he was on his mission, I wish I could say hi to him and know how he is doing. How old are you?
@@shamojj you can contact me at my email it's katherinedasia@gmail.com
Mormon to Atheist here. Why on earth would you go back to that abusive cult?
For many reasons, reasons that make sense to me. When I started finding good answers to my questions, I felt that I could begin to believe again.
@@Leowinegar good luck!
Re: The comment that is a problem that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who leave are more likely to become atheist because other religions have been proven wrong in their minds. In D&C where we get the most detail about who goes where, atheists aren't described as being worse off than non-members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. An apostate won't get punished more by God for switching to atheism as far as I can tell.
BASED
Are yall gonna change your name? We can't call ourselves Mormons anymore..
Leo is dressed in white shirt and tie because it is the "uniform" of the priesthood.
John 1:1 : "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. " doesn't that mean Jesus was God because in the the word was and is Jesus?
Yes. it means Christ was with Heavenly Father in the beginning.
Liar Kevlar you idiotic god had a temporal beginning within time. Your god fails the test for a god, ergo he is not a god but a creation of a well known fraud, and perverted charlatan called Joseph Smith.
I guess I have to clarify for you. By in the beginning, I am referring to the creation of this world. Also Christ is a God and was with Heavenly Father who is God during the creation of this world. John 1:1-3 "In the beginning (Creation) was the Word (Christ) and the Word was God. The same (Christ) was in the beginning (creation) 'with' God (Heavenly Father). All things were made by him; (Christ) and without him (Christ) was not any thing made that was made." see also: Ephesians 3:9 and col. 1:16,17. Gen. 1:26,27.
@@KevlarX2 Wait, I'm not here to argue, but the word was Jesus, or the whole Bible and it did not say "The word was A God" it said "the word Was God"
@@KevlarX2 "The word was God" The word being Jesus, also being God, 3in one.
Kwaku, you said that if a Mormon leaves the Mormon church they aren't going to become an evangelical Christian (among the other religions you listed) because it's been proven not true. Can you give me a few ways it's been proven not true?
Sociologists have studied this, and as it turns out converts to the Mormon church are more likely to move on to another religion whereas those raised in the LDS faith are more likely to become atheist (about 70%). Mormons leaving the faith who do so out of studying the historical issues are likely to study things like the documentary hypothesis and/or "the Holy Fable" and likely to come away from that skeptical of a literal interpretation of the Bible which is common within most evangelical Christian communities.
This church-funded propaganda mill is just so spiritual and inspirational! I can feel the holy ghost tugging at my credit card!!
👐🙏🙏👐💸💸💸🔍🚬
which 10% of what?
fumpis bumba - this is just a cheap denigrating blasphemous slam on the Church and the gospel -
oh man, an interview from an alleged ex-atheist with absolutely no substance on the arguments from atheism. Leo, I respect your journey and am happy you feel at peace with your beliefs, but you are a living straw man for the atheistic world view. If you are reading this and questioning your faith, it is ok, you are not damned. Check out TheCosmicSkeptic for the steel man arguments for atheism.
The fact that he kept going to church makes me think he wanted it to still be true. When he reached out and got an explanation that justified his concerns he was happy to go back. What's interesting is it did not seem like he ever had the anger stage that many of us go through.
You see both you and Dark_Winter have to disingenuously go after Leo's experience with atheism and attack it as not complete and supposedly not fully sincere in the degree of his atheism, because atheism stands or falls on the dark false scenario that once you plunge its depths you have passed over "a bridge too far" and can never return because of its supposed fact and irrefutable logic. When in reality atheism's arguments are based on the most flimsy and fleeting philosophical ideas. An awesome book to read on this subject is "There is a God" by Hyrum Lewis, which breaks down in the atheist's own language all the foundational atheistic beliefs and demonstrates how flimsy they really are. And thank God so many have come back to the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints from a foray away into atheism.
@@dark_winter8238 I experienced a lot of anger. I didn't have a chance to talk about that in this interview, but I definitely felt it. Thanks for your comment.
Augustin, thanks for weighing-in. For the purpose of this interview I had limited time and provided a brief recap of my experience. I don't mind sharing more of my journey with those who are sincerely interested.
Mormonism??? What is that? DoCtRiNe of ChRisT KweAkU
Mormonism survives on members taking their opinion to be doctrine. Mormonism will not stop members from making up their own doctrine because what are they going to fill it with.
So Glad kwuaku never wears a suit! Suits look so childish on adult men