Fungi Friday #9 Grain Spawn Techniques Soak/Simmer Vs. Dry Bagging
Вставка
- Опубліковано 7 січ 2021
- In this week’s Fungi Friday we break down two common techniques for producing grain spawn - soak/simmer and dry bagging. For more information visit our website www.freshfromthefarmfungi.com MUSHLOVE
- Наука та технологія
![[Easiest Ever Grain Tek] No Soak, No Boil, Grain Spawn for Growing Mushrooms](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SuE7DkWZwVw/mqdefault.jpg)
Just want to say… of all videos I watch pertaining to mushrooms I find you to be the most helpful and enjoyable to watch. Thank you for doing what you do.
Thanks for watching and following along!
I solved a sterilization problem for the owner of Unicorn bag and he sent me an entire pallet of bags 6 feet tall!
On the box fan + filter thing the way I do it is I use the assembly as a "pre-filter/open room outside of my clean area that feeds into my clean area" to keep large particulate load off of my HEPA filters. The way I assemble it is I get a 20x20 box fan, a 20"x20"x4" MERV15 furnace filter, duct tape the filter to the intake side of the fan being careful to make sure there is no area along the filter edge fan interface not sealed with duct tape and always observe airflow direction through the filter to the intake side of the fan. A more advance derivation of this is the Corsi-Rosenthal box. the Corsi-Rosenthal assembly will flow more atmosphere than a single filter of course. All in all it's a cheap and effective way to pre-scrub your atmosphere so you don't slam a bunch of foo into the back of your HEPA. Since I have a REALLY efficient HVAC I just keep one of these running 24x7 to keep the atmosphere pre-scrubbed.
I buy 50 lb bags of oats from horse feed store. $17… Bring to a boil lower the heat and simmer for 30 mins. Pressure cook in jars 15 psi for 2 hours. Cheap and hasn’t let me down.
Yeah that’s how it do it. My experience too that best way. That pre boil gets the ball really rolling on them 🦠
2 hrs is kind of overkill.
@@pseudoformed It isn`t 2,5 hours is my gtg.
Whats your method for drying them? I was using towels and it works great but makes a mess on the towels once dry. I went to use a window screen in a 5gal bucket but it didn't dry them like the towels and left alot of wet grain. I've been experimenting with a no prep method. Having issues with some grains burning, and bags bursting here and there. I'd say it's bout 80% dialed in. I use 2.5lb grain to 1.5lb water.
Love your videos man!
I use same method I like the moisture consistency of soak and simmer I look at it like pre steralization
Great work 💗💗💗
Hi Gary, nice video, I like to watch and like them :) I would like to ask you if you could make a video from the growing room, where you would describe how you set your air intake, air volume per hour and also air exhaust. I have a room similar to yours and I'm going to furnish it and it would help me a lot. Do you use temperature change for better primordia formation? Thank you for everything, I'm a big fan of yours. I wish everyone well.
If you use grain that isn't marked as organic like if you get it from a farm supply it has ace antifungal agents sprayed on it it's a fungicide which is very bad for growing mushrooms obviously. Soak and simmer does remove that but don't save the water because it'll have fun fungus side in it
Hey Thank you very much for this video! How interesting are these lids for not using aluminum foil when you put the jars to sterilize, I await your answer, thank you very much.
Man I've been wanting to say this for a long time but knowing some people out there they probably take it the wrong way or something but you're just fucking amazing man I love your intellectual your when you explain anything I mean your intelligent very intelligent person and wow when the surprise me if you're a star seed actually love you brother bye have a nice day
I've been trying out just regular seal a meal bags. The pressure cooker gets hot enough to seal them without the sealer. Just use a hole punch to make two holes and cover with micropore tape, put a drop of RTV on it, and it's good to go. I got reishi to take off on rye, in one bag, and the other has been sitting for over week with no growth (control). So far it seems viable. I'm guessing you're more on it with the rice at this point. Any tips for cordyceps? I'm throwing a wide net, and getting a lot of viable mycelium, but I can already see the strain weakening in it's strength since the first plate, and I haven't even gotten anything fruiting yet.
chemistry pro tip:
I also add 350ml of H2O2 for a pot that size of grains while soaking for 18 hours in cold water..
when you boil the grains for 10 to 20 minutes the H2O2 looses an Oxygen Molecule at 140F & turns into H2O + is extra protection against any contamination(s)
Thanks for the tips!
@Tristian Blaine download this dudes TROJAN (if your a big dummy that is)
Why does that matter if you're going to pressure cook it?
I thought of using H2O2 for soaking, perhaps used too much bc I got all bacterial contam. Which was what I was hoping to avoid... You are having good luck?
@@terrestrials1 no idea why without knowing your complete method
cool content dude
I do the no soak/no boil method for quart jars aswell but with White Millet
White Millet = 260g
Water - 175ml = 175g
15psi 1h 30 Minutes
I just started with the 3T bags aswell using this recipie:
White Millet = 1560g
Water = 1050g
Gypsum = 1 tsp
= 2610 g / 5.7 lb / 2.6 kg
and for Oat bags:
1800g Oats
1350g Water
= 3150g / 6.95 lb / 3.1kg
3 jar rings on bottom + trivet above + plate on top of bags
15psi for 2 hours
and I vaccum/heat-seal the bags before pressure cooking and then inject with liquid culture once cooled
also add a tablespoon of white vinegar to the prestos water and the jars come out shiny
Midnight Mushroom Co. has a recent video about this no soak/no boil method aswell :)
Also from what I've read its important for optimal sterilization to vent the Presto before putting the weight on, as it says in the instruction book. Basically you put the lid on without the weight, turn heat up to highest setting, let steam exhaust from the vent pipe, once the safety lock pops up put a timer on for 10 minutes, then once thats done put the weight on and bring it up to 15psi.
thanks for all the info!
Second venting. It's extremely important.
@@Lor3nzo89 I agree, always follow the manufacturer recommendations. I believe this precaution is to ensure that the valve is not blocked by a bag or substrate when the lid is put on, but I don't speak for the manufacturer. For me, I have found that this method works well as long as you know that there is head space near the valve and it saves about 20 minutes every run - time is important and when you do 10+ batches a week, it ads up quickly. I also have a small autoclave that heats up much faster and I can sterilize small batches in 20 minute cycles but it holds much less substrate. The next upgrade is to get an iron lung/tuttnauer that could hold the same or more substrate and be done in half the time - MUSHLOVE
@@FreshfromtheFarmFungi can you tell us more about the iron lung / tuttnauer? I found something about h202 sterilization?
Rice has spores of bacillus cereus that can survive cooking. When the rice is left at room temperature, those can increase and cause food poisoning if consumed.
Correct we really shouldn’t eat left over rice. He shouldn’t even be re heated
Hi Gary, I work when your on live vides but love your work. I also live in Denver, CO and would like to know where you get your oat grain from. I go to tractor supply in Castle Rock and get a 50 ibs bag of oats for $14 and it needed to be washed?
Also how many quarts of grain do you soak and drain at one time and how long do you dry them out for on a towel?
I soak by washing grain first then I grab a pot of boiling water add 1 cup of used coffee grounds. Once coffee tea is made I pore it in to my soak bucket of grains making sure not to pore all the used coffee ground that are sitting on the bottom of the pot. Its ok to get a little of the coffee ground with your grain. (tip: Starbucks give away used coffee ground and I freeze it by measuring a cup in to individual bags) helps when you grow on coco and used coffee) . Then drain and I dry for 45-60 min on mutable news paper layers and stacks. During the dry time I move the grains around 1 or 2 time throughout the drying process so it can dry out more evenly and faster (I fill my PC up every run to save time and energy up to 7-8 quarts dry which make up 14-16 quarts wet grains so your dry time will be different then my dry time). I like news paper because it helps me gather the grain in to a mound by lifting the corners up and also very easy to clean up.
PC back pressure is a real thing but in Paul Statement book he says to place a soak alcohol cotton ball or paper towel on top of all the vents as a filter while it cools down leavening the weight on top.
I use a portable bunsen burner on a coleman green propane tank that I find to be cost affective, smaller then a flow hood, works good as a small flow hood but better then a still air box. Also made for flame sterilize a needle or scalpel so agar and inoculating work is a lot faster then using a small lighter.
WARNING bunsen burners and rubbing alcohol dose not mix at all and VERY VERY VERY DANGERS. I personally have a fire extinguisher next to me when I work.
Awesome! Thanks for watching and for all the info 👍 Check out Lions Mane Equipment and supply they have organic grains there - I also have gotten grains from murdochs, tractor supply and four seasons in wheat ridge (closed but I think they might still have connections to larger suppliers) Prices do very throughout the season usually cheaper in spring/early summer 🙂 I don’t follow an exact recipe for my oats but usually fill the pot to just under the top and cover with water. Then let dry for a few minutes just so there isn’t excess water on them in the jars
I'm just gonna take a wild guess that your longer sterilization times are more a matter of altitude. Closer to sea level, I run 10psi(~240F) for 90min doing twice the grain spawn per run, after soak/simmer. I would go to 15psi, but I'm not confident this chinesium PC will handle it.
Hi Gary - sorry for the comment on an older video; love your work! I have seen some people lacto-ferment their grains for 48 hours before drying and PCing to get rid of endospores, which they say will show up by day 10 without that procedure. What are your thoughts on this?
if you cook them correctly (250F/15psi) for at least 20 minutes (so the core temp reaches this - I run my grains for 60 min) then all endospores should be sterilized. It’s a matter of run time not grain prep. Although I have heard of this as well and people swear by it.
Hey bro I love your work.! I am in Littleton, do you ever do lab tours/classes? I would love to get some of your gourmet genetics but would way rather do it in person than on Etsy.
Hey thanks for following along and reaching out! We have classes scheduled through April but they are all sold out - I don’t give tours during market season because of contamination issues but if you’d like me to bring some liquid cultures to the markets just send me an email - I can bring them Saturdays at Cherry Creek Farmers Market or else it’s easier to order through ETSY because of inventory/tracking etc. I also stock some cultures at Lions Mane Equipment and Supply in Denver and will be selling more mycology supplies/grow kits soon at the Co-op at 1st (1st and Sheridan)
@@FreshfromtheFarmFungi thank you! I will shoot you an email about picking up some cultures at the market, and keep my eye on your classes for an opening in the future. Keep up the great work! Watching another FFFF video right now.
By the way, what are your recommendations for installing a backwash filter on the Presto brand pressure cooker. I never really thought about the air entering the port while cooling causing contamination. It there and easy way to accomplish this or is there a standard filter? Rob.
A lot of people put a damp isopropyl paper towel over the intake holes, I just cool in front of my flow hood which works well
Are those mainstays lids from Walmart?
thanks ..I tried this using quart jars ... not sure what went wrong but myce stopped growing about 50% and never resumed. I used oats but not sure if they were washed
Did you shake them?
What is the name of the store where you buy your grains? Thanks for the video!!
murdoch's, high country cattle, lion's mane equipment and supply, costco all have great deals on grains
Do mushrooms that fruit on wood, change/vary depending on the kind of wood? Or will any kind of wood plug do?
Avoid softwoods
u look exactly like the guy i went to boot camp with
Where do you get your grain locally? I’m in Denver as well.
We were getting from high plains cattle but they went out of business during the pandemic - searching for a new source right now Lion’s mane in Denver has organic rye berries but we really like using oats
What happens to the used bags?
So the filters in the bags are hydrophobic so you really needent worry about covering the filter. Actually if you preseal this could cause them to burst.
Also are those whatman filters for your grain? Those are hydrophobic too, also expensive. May not be necessary, also wouldn't this be comparable to getting sfd(synthetic filter discs) and cutting pieces and siliconing to the jar?
Thanks for the suggestions and yes it would make sense 👍
How long do you let the grain dry for? I soaked over night. Boiled as instructed. Strained and spread out on a towel and let the grains cool off until they stopped steaming and then bagged and pcd. They seem a little wet coming out of the PC. Is that normal ? Should I have let the grains dry longer ?
it can be normal - one thing to check is to use a paper towel or toilet paper. When you press against the dried grains for a second it should be dry and grains shouldn’t stick to the toilet paper 👍 I can do a video sometime on this
hey do you have any videos where you show how to make agar from the “broth” created from soaking? or can you share any techniques?
just use the broth with 14g of agar/agar per L 👍 you can also add in about 20g of potato flakes to thicken it
Fresh from the Farm Fungi sweet, thanks for the advice - i heard you mention that in the video and wanted to give it a try
Do you think dry bagging would work with unwashed grain? I don't really see why not since 1,5h on 15 psi should kill anything.
Yes it should just cook longer
How long are you sterilizing the jars of grain when running just the jars?
60 min at 15psi/250F
What size hole do you drill for the .22 micron filters?
ua-cam.com/video/9zLNpgNDles/v-deo.html
Hey man I'm here in Denver, where do you get your grains from here? $8/50 lbs good lord that's a deal!
it has gone up a bit since then I used to get it from highplains cattle but it closed now I source from wherever is cheapest
Do I let it boil and then let simmer for 20min ?
What kind of flow hoods have worked best for you? I'm going to purchase one soon and don't want to make a mistake. I have the room for most any size, just want the easiest and best, thanks! Rob.
I like Air science from florida, myers mushrooms from missouri and these are some smaller ones maybe for starting out
amzn.to/3L8djtS
amzn.to/3L56XLN
OK, great! I thank you and love your video's! I'm a fan! Rob.
I usually just soak over night no heat then dry my grain and put them in a pot and simmer for 4hours with a lid on
that could work well too but if you don’t reach 250F/15psi it will not sterilize and can still get contams
Can you tell what size strainer you are using to drain the water off the grain? Thanks
I think it’s a 50 micron sieve but I am not 100% - I got it from army surplus store
@@FreshfromtheFarmFungi Gary thanks so much for the info I'll see what I can find:)
A little tyvek patch on bags would probably work. I think it will allow water vapor to escape, but not liquid water. A water molecule is about 2.75 angstroms.
Good evening, why are there no subtitles? important for those who do not know English!
I cant tell if this is preparing the grain? or at what part can you add something with mycelium/ spores.. I'm starting with a bag from a distributer and I'm new to mycology so maybe this guy isn't useful to me.
this is prepping for the grains yes - look at this video it will walk you through the rest ua-cam.com/video/9xewpa33izU/v-deo.html
Wouldn’t you be Introducing more bacteria spores with that towel drying technique? Defeating the purpose of a soak
no, you sterilize them after that. The soak is to get the grains hydrated
Did you get the email over the box fan flow hood, it’s hella simple
Yes the problem is finding a square filter to fit the square box fan
I bought a clear comforter bag and a desk top HEPA filter for a positive air chamber. Works good so far. $50 total and it folds up to go back in the drawer
@@growterps_1508 I wanted a .2 but settled for a .3 because its a little cube and tapes to the bag perfectly. You're right. Make sure it says HEPA not just air filtration.
For the dry bagging method; Can you let it cool overnight first almost completely if not completely ? then take out the pc and mix ? Or does it need to be mixed before cooling ?
@@mike_ish discord.gg/xqsNcnvD here’s a discord that can and will be glad to help
Have you ever tried Quinoa or Amaranth?
yes it is very expensive
@@FreshfromtheFarmFungi true, but since I only do small scale, if they were superior, I would spring for it. I like millet and bird seed. Popcorn was weird. Each kernel quickly got white but never seemed to colonize into a cake. Thanks for the vids. Very helpful.
My wife wont allow me to cook grain in the house anymore.lol honestly though it does stink
I thought you needed the filter to stay on the outside so that it won't stick to the plastic from the heat
no, this way is better, especially with SaCO2 bags you want to protect from moisture
@@FreshfromtheFarmFungi I will try it your way next time. I've seen many people mention that you need to put the filter on the outside.
All of a sudden out of nowhere I'm getting Trichoderma really bad about two out of five bags will be throwaway and I'm using the same bags as you what's the .2 Micron filter Unicorn and all. I got a pallet of the damn thing I can't figure out why I'm getting such bad results I have never gotten bad results I'm about ready to start spraying the inside of the bag with isopropanol. I don't know what to do to tell you the truth. I'm at a loss my sterile technique are really good I never get infected Agar just grain spawn and now substrate as a result. It's really upsetting me I don't know what to do. But i sterilize at 15 pounds for 2 1/2 hours! There shouldn't be anything alive
I wasn't clear about the 24 hour soak method. When you do the 24hr soak, do you still have to boil/simmer like you do with the Soak/Simmer method?
either that or sieve off the water - it will work both ways
@@FreshfromtheFarmFungi thanks.
@@FreshfromtheFarmFungi When you simmer, do you keep the lid on? In the video I didn't see a lid and wasn't sure.
Please get a tripod, I'm dying here friend.
It's a 23 quart PC, not 32
yes 👍
You are super smart, but the selfie filming method is killing me.
I agree there needs to be improvements I am working on it 👍 thanks for the feedback
Soaking the grains permits spores to germinate then cooking spores again will kill the germinated spores?? Your terminology has me confused....