@@Se7enRemain Hitgrabs are no different than any other strike. They're just strikes that look like grabs so that you can have a grab animation that you can combo into and nothing else. Manon's hitgrab and Potemkin's Heat Knuckle are a couple examples.
That’s the thing that makes me so mad with modern FG discourse. Everyone wants to pretend their favorite game from their childhood is actually the best FG and the rest are dumb brainless baby games and they refuse to just admit the truth of “yeah I just like it cause I grew up playing it a lot.”
I mean... it's right up there with Hokuto no Ken, but not as funny. That mess is usually what people sign up for in Versus games, though (except DBFZ Season 3, and maybe Skullgirls, if you like guessing on mixups).
when i was waiting for strive to come to xbox i started trying to learn a bit abt the game beforehand to “prepare” or w/e. every character i mentioned being interested in ppl in a discord i was in would say “oh they’re strike/throw so you have to guess on ur own offense they suck”. once i could actually play the game myself, i messaged that discord to see if anyone wanted to play. none of them even had the game.
@@GS_CCC because to you its a random one, but to them its very possible they joined off a friend etc or that they played plenty of other games with them, its also possible that it was a guilty gear discord, just not the main one
@@shaphier7057 so a random one? I'm not saying he doesn't know the people there just that it clearly isn't a guilty gear based discord, and as result the people there didn't even play the game.
@GS_CCC how were they supposed to know though? Like it's such hindsight bias lol, they talked about being interested in playing characters from a fighting game, the people their gave input on the subject, and later they asked to play some matches. Up until the point of asking to play you have to assume they also played the game
Strike throw is just a term that people use when they cant find a way to convert a combo off a Sol 5k sj.c as an anti air against Baiken while trying to get a clean hit sidewinder with no meter
@@tripldentgum6405I’m gonna try (and fail) to comprehend what this single input is in plain English: Down down, Purple Roman Cancel, Just Frame, krouching Back Medium Fierce Or just to completely give up, Down Down, Purple Roman Cancel, John F. Kennedy, Badass Mother Fucker
@@tripldentgum6405 What's wrong with you people this isn't even a useful input for Potemkin literally nothing uses this and there's even wackier inputs like JFkHFJFBkHPB66PRCDBKBMF
Players don't want to say their real issue(s) with the game because that would open up discussion. They don't want to discuss, they just want to complain.
My takeaway from the content Sajam has been posting in this channel lately is this: All FGC discourse recently has been born exclusively from salty post-tournament loss tweets A salty pro tweets that their game is trash, and scrubs parade it around until we're all forced to talk about it
I feel like this is another manifestation of when people complain about this or that move that has a lot of strengths but also very notable weaknesses, e.g. "sure you can 6P the 2nd hit of the rekka, but they can just stop the rekka early to punish my 6P so it's literally useless!" They just want to be able to be right every single time without having to think about it, and if the game is structured in a way where they have to guess or adapt, it's the game's fault and the game that needs to be fixed.
This needs to be pinned cause that’s basically all of FGC discourse. Afterwards when people refuse to adapt or lab or learn the match up etc, they start to scream for patches not realizing that because they refused to do the above, they’ll still lose.
MvC3: Strike/Strike (Throw) (Affectionate) Unions: Strike/Strike (Derogatory if CEO otherwise Affectionate) : Throw/Throw (Affectionate if fan, Derogatory if hater)
It's weird watching people complaining about SF 6 gameplay for every month and the complaints always changing lol. From DI is broken to DR is broken, Perfect Parry is broken, crouch MK > DR is broken, throw loop is broken, Marisa is broken, Ken is broken, JP is broken, Dee Jay is broken, strike/throw is disgusting, RPS is garbage, etc etc. All these complaints makes me wander if the FGC actually love the learning process in fighting games or they just want the easy way out: complaint to the developer and asked them to fixed their skill issues?
Playing Fighting Games is Better than Arguing on Twitter with People Who Don't. But of course people on Twitter don't play or understand the genre in a nuanced way and/or are trying to Gaslight the developers into benefiting their personal playstyle. Either way you can't take it seriously.
You see, your mistake here is assuming that the FGC loves fighting games for the learning process - FGC loves fighting games because they win in fighting games. Most of them hate losing in general because they don't get to enjoy the gratification of winning and feeling like they "earned" the win through situations that are as varied as gambling. I mean, why do you think the biggest FG tourney in the world is held in Las Vegas, you know?
The people who love the learning process are too busy labbing and playing to complain online. You just end up with the vocal minority on Twitter or whatever
@Sorrelhas I would rather repeated discussions about nuanced topics than talking about trends or new topics at a surface level. Looking at communities for games which get updated super frequently, topics of discussion end up being really poor and often just complaining about whatever given change rather than getting into the details
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034Ah yes, but you can throw the parry. An option that gets beaten by throws but doesn’t get beaten by strikes if your predictions are correct. Blocking.
always interesting how people try to shield their ego with excuses when losing to something they deem unfair. And I am not immune to that but i grow ever more aware of this.
This is really funny, i recently played cammy up to diamond 1 and i was talking with a friend about how i didnt enjoy her strike / throw rushdown style. I then talked about how i much preferred kim because i thought alternating overheads / lows and throws to beat parry was fun. My specific reasoning was that as kim i can see my opponent blocking low or high the last time i get a meaty. As cammy if i do a block string im not entirely sure if they a delay teching and for me overhead / low just made more sense. In my eyes its just personal preference but its funny to me that people are so specific about how they judge a game and what will mark it as a bad game
for me i thought strike throw was just describing how you open people up with a character. its usually Strike/throw, high/low, same side/crossup, and other shit like zoning fireball/flash kick. didnt know it was a more negative term to some people.
And funnily enough a contingent of ROA fans are mad that ROA2 is going to have shields and throws and ledges. (I'm not one of those people, but there ya go.)
genuinely, look at melty blood aacc not to say that throws have no relevance in aacc but a lot of offense in that game, much like rivals revolves around staggers and diverse angles of approach and working in delayed attacks to deny mashing/jumping and evade parry attempts
The main mix in Tekken is mid/low. Throws exist but can be teched on reaction (King and a few other characters force the player to guess the break), so they are not the main form of breaking guard, while lows must either be evaded or blocked/parried crouching, which then opens you up to getting hit by a mid.
In the end, the rage that people felt in the arcades back in the day at getting thrown, such that they felt the need to threaten real physical violence on the other player who threw them, never really went away. It just got dampened somewhat by time. But getting thrown still sucks. It still makes a certain class of people incredibly, irrationally angry.
I think one aspect that makes throws frustrating in sf6 especially is the time the animation takes. Seeing the same 3 second long animation gets annoying
@@ellagage1256yeah but they are just relavant to maybe two seconds of discussion so its inclusion is more of a joke than an actual relevant graphic so it actually shouldnt be on screen long, unless the editor is willing to pause the clip to insert an opinion before letting the rest of the sajam vid you came to watch kept playing.
@@RaphDeGrate I mean it's obnoxious when the time it's on the screen is so short it makes it harder to even pause the video to actually read it. It's also (whether intentional or not) a bit scummy since it forces people to rewind over and over at one spot which helps with the UA-cam algorithm. It's the type of thing I can tolerate in small amounts, but too much of it and I just stop watching the video/channel entirely
@@RaphDeGrate What good is a joke if you can't read it? If it's not really relevant, why include it? That's just extra work for what's ultimately not a good viewing experience.
Somehow, it feels like we never escaped the "throws are cheap" era, despite throws having way more counterplay and not literally costing you money because you lost to them. I'm not immune, sometimes when I get thrown I wanna call my opponent a dweeb. Then I realize I was probably just being too passive and go back to pressing my fat fuck off buttons with Juri or Giovanna or whatever.
Jeez the fgc is full of crybabies. There's always something to complain about with a lot of them. It gets exhausting when you just want to enjoy a game and it's community.
For me, Strike/Throw (derogatory) is games where throws are really low reward and offensive pressure against someone confident enough to simply block feels very neutered. I don't mind playing against the simple simian instincts and using throws to spook people into trying to tech, but I need throws to at least be scary so people want to tech more often. Otherwise it's a high risk (they mash and beat my ass)/low reward (I throw them for little damage, they get up, we're in the same situation) option. That said, this ain't commentary on current games; I'm so far removed from the modern generation of fighting games, I have absolutely 0 input on them.
What's up with Sajam including these frame perfect hidden text messages a la Tyler Durden? I'm almost having to plink the video control keys to read them.
If the throw isn't that strong in a game that's why we say "take the throw" Some games let you combo off them so they are really bad, other times it's a hard knockdown or maybe it's even worse than that. So in a strike/throw situation unless you have like 1 hp just take the throw. Way better situation than eating a strike and potentially a 50% combo
I think part of this is how people learn games in general and how mechanics are presented. Some people and tutorials say strike/throw/block is a RPS system, which is intuitive because then you pick your strike Pokémon to beat the throw Pokémon. But the systems are more complicated than that and can be weighted towards certain options and suddenly it feels “unfair” when you’re constantly throwing rocks and losing. Wait, what were we talking about?
when I here "Strike/Throw (Derogatory)" my first thought is actually people calling a character weak in GGST, since strike throw is the weakest form of mix as opposed to high/low or left/right due to throw invulnerablity and throws losing to more than one defensive option
@@joeyrhubarb2558 Yeah that. Requires meter, but with his defensive tools and health pool, he always gets to do it at least once a match against most of the cast. And it is very potent since he can wallbreak into win game from almost anywhere in the screen.
A fragment from Seth Killian's Domination 101: "“Cheap” tactics violate the sanctity of “blocking”. All scrubs seem to feel that blocking should be some sort of unimpeachable stronghold- a scrub “fortress of solitude”. Apparently the thinking is “When I’m blocking, no one should be able to hurt me, no matter what!”. Where this idea came from is anyone’s guess. Ever hear of blocking in Space Invaders? Could Pac-Man block? Blocked any quad-damage railgun shots lately? No. But the scrub still feels somehow especially violated when he’s hunkered down, jamming the stick into block, and something still disappears off his lifebar. “What the hell! I was BLOCKING!” Well… so what? What is it about the block that makes the scrub feel he’s entered the magical-happy land of no damage, no worries, and no threats? I have no idea. The fact is, he isn’t in that happy place. It just isn’t true. It was never true, of course, although enough people insisted on playing make-believe for so long that they almost believe it now. And when someone walks up and, say, throws them, giving them the unpleasant reality check that reminds them they were playing make-believe, the poor widdle scwubs get all upset. The reason the Capcom designers didn’t make blocking completely impervious to damage is extremely obvious- if they had, the game would be reduced to a question of who could hit who first, then block like a madman for the rest of the round. That would suck."
God, you can tell this shit's old when QUAKE is used as an example that everyone ks supposed to be familiar... But as per usual, Seth Killian was merciless and also entirely correct and, like, two decades ahead of the Twitter Discourse Meta lmao
Go play ST on fightcade and tell me throws weren't cheap back then. I feel for the boomers that got tick thrown looped in the arcades, that shit sucks.
i think maybe throws feel more frustrating to get hit by because of the long(ish) animation. some combos can be very long too of course, but there's something different about the high reward of just one move that i think can tilt people.
I remember people saying "this sfv game is so scrubby its all strike throw" and as a new player at the time i genuinely had a tough time figuring out why that was a complaint
I'm just bad at strike/throw, both on my offense and defense. Give me crazy mixups so I can say "I'm godlike" when I open up my opponent and "there was no way I could have blocked that" when they do it to me
Sajam, it's simple. If I'm in a situation that I realistically could not have avoided, and I have to pick between two or three options otherwise I immediately get hit, then that's called "set play" and it's boring and should be avoided, or at least made not-worth-going-for by the one initiating the mixup. That is what people mean, and strike/throw is just an example. And no, this type of mixup is not necessarily in every fighting game, because you can make mixups more dynamic and flowing into each other, rather than just immediately paying out the "correct" player. Using a guard gauge is just one example. If a character in Street Fighter 6 has no command throws, and no overheads, and no crossups, and no significant Burnout pressure, then they're just a bottom tier character because the opponent can block everything. By adding a guard gauge, you don't need any of that to be a good character, because maybe you're really good at threatening guard breaks. Blocking something doesn't immediately payout one player, but blocking too many times in a row does, so you'll eventually have to do something more risky on defense... but you're never forced to. You could have escaped the previous layers, and not had to deal with the guard break, but you chose the easy survival one or two times, and now you can't choose it a third time. Likewise, the opponent now has to guess when and how you'll take your defensive risk, and the game becomes a thousand times more interesting. Shen from KoF XIII is the perfect example. He has a very bad command throw, no overheads, no crossups, no significant chip damage, average movement, high damage (but every character has high damage in that game), and even has trouble starting combos without landing a heavy normal. But he's still very strong, because you don't need any of that to play KoF, seeing as how it has a guard gauge. He can just hop at you over and over again, and, if you don't predict at least one with an anti-air, he just wins. And this is very similar to what Street Fighter 6 does with Burnout on a mechanical level, but the game isn't balanced around it. KoF also removes the ability to do 50/50 strike/throw mixups by making you invincible to throws for 10 frames after hitstun/blockstun, which means it literally replaces the less interesting mixup with the more interesting mixup. In Street Fighter 6, you just get tick thrown into Zangief Level 3 Super and die. The only way to escape both the strike and the throw when Zangief is at least +2 is to spend meter on an unsafe-on-block reversal. And, if you guess right and jump the throw, HE dies. Someone's dying whenever he does Level 3, and that's the definition of a non-interesting mixup.
This is the right take. Strike/Throw in the way it is now is just not interesting. Its higher risk and higher reward, but gambling always feels terrible when youre on the losing side because theres nothing you can do outside of "guess better"
Usually what I mean with a Strike/Throw game is the game having weak or no left/right, high/low and plus frame mix. Because all mix options are so weak all characters default to knockdown into meaty mid or grab. Rinse and repeat. Strike/Throw should not be every characters default but more an option in addition to their own flavor of mix.
I’m not throwing shade but I feel I hear this way more from the anime community. I remember watching some guilty gear tier lists and a character “just being strike throw” for the offence is always a negative
This is great, I never articulated in my mind what he says about Command Grabs - that you can’t tech them, that you’re supposed to avoid them but that could also open you up. I’ve always avoided Grabs because they’re scary, so it’s more of a panicky “ONG get me out of here!” 😂 But now I’ll be more intentional about it, mm!🎉
I think Touhou 12.3 is one of the only fighting game I can think of that’s not strike/throw- that game centralizes around projectiles and strikes, instead, which makes it very unique. The only character with anything resembling a grab is Suika.
Appreciate you bringing some reason into the discourse. An aside, but I'm the weirdo that likes throw loops and drive rushes. I don't know, it feels like there's counterplay for everything in the game thanks to the system mechanics, and i like that. But it's not free either - I at least am horrible at hitting perfect parries. And I think it's good that defense isn't braindead personally, well at least at my level.
My only problem with throws in SF6, is that the whiff recovery is too short. I think if I read throw and am willing to take a big risk on jump or backdash I should be rewarded. I think a successful throw could be even stronger. Like giving better oki or meter gain but I also think whiffing a throw should be more dangerous.
When I say "this game is strike/throw" I mean "this game doesn't have MvC or DBFZ style 4 way, unreactable mixups" SF6 is literally a strike/throw game tho cause you can hold parry during all the strike mixups and completely invalidate them.
Understanding & expressing your inner feelings is hard. Taking the OS to strike/throw is easy bc you totally understand what I mean broseph, if you play at a high level (like me). /s
I've been saying dogwater my whole life, just because you'd never heard a phrase before zoomers popularized it doesn't mean they invented it. Like "glizzies".
I'm a for honor player, and the only thing that got nerfed through strike and throw was the environment, they baby-proofed it for all the whiners. No more spikes, lava, etc. Because "muh fair fight" in a weapon's based fighting game doesn't rely on terrain.
Tekken really isn't strike/throw. Yes you have both, but one option doesn't lose to the other in a coin flip guessing game, Which is the main criticism. It is a mid/low game though, because that is the main tool to opening people up that is simply a guess. Eating 5 throws in a row in SF is equivalent to Eating 5 lows in a row in Tekken. The core difference though is that Tekken has far more effective option selects and tools for hard reads on ANY attack (high, low, throw, etc.) That don't make that interaction a true 50/50
This is always so funny. You can come up with valid complaints. You can complain about any game... but as an old head, strike/throw is the noblest mixup, so ifsomeone is whining about hating strike/throw it just sounds super scrubby.
i much prefer having to take a unreactable 50/50 then have to take a strike throw i just find it more fun which is why cf is one of my fav games throws are mostly a "you awake?" check
I strike my Hitbox, hurt my hand, then throw it on the ground This is mostly sarcasm, but those things are sturdy I’ve hurt myself too many times trying to smack it
It annoys me more how non-fighting games with strike/throw/blocking tamper with the relationship. Grabs that have priority over strikes and may have to be blocked are heinous
it feels strange to say this but I feel like I'm at the point where I just expect people to not be able to accurately describe what they don't like about a game any more. In every community within every genre it feels like people latch onto short phrases that don't actually mean anything to express why they don't enjoy the game but then have a hard time actually describing what things specifically they are bouncing off of. It's a little bit concerning tbh
Its funny how people complain about strike throw being too strong now cause back when Dragonball first came out any character that had to rely on staggers and strike throw was considered a waste of a character slot and people talked shit that strike throw wasnt even a real mixup in other games like Xrd an Unist.
King is a strike/throw character seriously why the fk does he have better counterhits than STEVE while also having arguably the best throw game? we need Marduk in Tekken 8 and make him a heavy counter to King.
If used in derogatory way I thought it means that game doesn't have other components in the offense and it is mostly strike/throw there for it gets boring and lacks diversity in styles.
This is why I play characters with hitgrabs. You can't be upset if I strike you with my throw.
To this day I still don't know the point of hitgrabs. They're still command grabs, so maybe they beat universal throws? It seems silly to me.
@@Se7enRemain Hitgrabs are no different than any other strike. They're just strikes that look like grabs so that you can have a grab animation that you can combo into and nothing else. Manon's hitgrab and Potemkin's Heat Knuckle are a couple examples.
@@Se7enRemainits only called a hit grab because it looks like a grab it’s just a strike
@@Se7enRemain
They look cool
@@Se7enRemain So there's some flavor to attacks besides just regular ol' punches and kicks.
Won't block/Won't tech, simple as
Im playing that jabjabjab/wakeup super game
'ate strike
'ate throw
Luv me neutral
Luv me footsies
Simple as
@@Sorrelhas we all know people that say this are wiggling around a bit then jumping and DRing like crazy to do their lil combo
@@Sorrelhasfrow***
@@GuelermeDias Haha wiggle about and jump is everyone’s goto in this game. When you anti air then enough it’s wiggle into di for some weird reason
With how the FGC talks about fighting games online, you'd think that the MvC series would be seen as the worst fighting games ever
I think it is personally but the great part is I can just not play it
That’s the thing that makes me so mad with modern FG discourse. Everyone wants to pretend their favorite game from their childhood is actually the best FG and the rest are dumb brainless baby games and they refuse to just admit the truth of “yeah I just like it cause I grew up playing it a lot.”
I mean... it's right up there with Hokuto no Ken, but not as funny. That mess is usually what people sign up for in Versus games, though (except DBFZ Season 3, and maybe Skullgirls, if you like guessing on mixups).
With how the FGC talks about fighting games you'd think Karate Champ was the last good fighting game
You'd think Footsies would be the most beloved game in history
when i was waiting for strive to come to xbox i started trying to learn a bit abt the game beforehand to “prepare” or w/e. every character i mentioned being interested in ppl in a discord i was in would say “oh they’re strike/throw so you have to guess on ur own offense they suck”.
once i could actually play the game myself, i messaged that discord to see if anyone wanted to play.
none of them even had the game.
it's an unwritten rule of fgc discords that like half of the people in there don't even play it
Why not ask in a guilty gear discord instead of a random one?
@@GS_CCC because to you its a random one, but to them its very possible they joined off a friend etc or that they played plenty of other games with them, its also possible that it was a guilty gear discord, just not the main one
@@shaphier7057 so a random one?
I'm not saying he doesn't know the people there just that it clearly isn't a guilty gear based discord, and as result the people there didn't even play the game.
@GS_CCC how were they supposed to know though? Like it's such hindsight bias lol, they talked about being interested in playing characters from a fighting game, the people their gave input on the subject, and later they asked to play some matches. Up until the point of asking to play you have to assume they also played the game
Ah yes the new Kojima character; Strike Throwman.
Strike throw is just a term that people use when they cant find a way to convert a combo off a Sol 5k sj.c as an anti air against Baiken while trying to get a clean hit sidewinder with no meter
As an fgc player this was the nerdiest shit I’ve ever read.
@@hands-ongaming7180may I introduce you to the nerdiest single input string I've ever seen
22PRCJFkBMF
I see we have a fellow lucid button masher enjoyer
@@tripldentgum6405I’m gonna try (and fail) to comprehend what this single input is in plain English:
Down down, Purple Roman Cancel, Just Frame, krouching Back Medium Fierce
Or just to completely give up, Down Down, Purple Roman Cancel, John F. Kennedy, Badass Mother Fucker
@@tripldentgum6405 What's wrong with you people this isn't even a useful input for Potemkin literally nothing uses this and there's even wackier inputs like JFkHFJFBkHPB66PRCDBKBMF
High/Low
Left/Right
Strike/Throw
All I know is that somebody just got hit bro
Bars 🔥
You just described the first layer of a UMVC3 mixup
@@Thuglos seen enough umvc3 to know it
"Third Strike? More like Throw/Strike."
Lol
You can throw me all you want. I will never tech. You will never get that 70% combo of me.
Hey, throwing you 7x in a row makes you look just as stupid, so I'll take it.
Joke's on you, we're playing Strive and my gauge is at 50%. (Sol main here)
@@Mistouze I don't play GG anymore. You'll never find me.
LOOL scrub, tech throw just don’t get comfy. You’re gonna take throw n end up in a loop 😂
@@videogameaddict4041throw loops suck
The true Strike/Throw game is 'will Jam cancel the flying kick into the flying kick' (yes)
Sajam's inner demon was just BARELY contained
“If you don’t like strike/throw, that’s like all of fighting games. You just don’t like fighting games.”
He spittin’
Players don't want to say their real issue(s) with the game because that would open up discussion. They don't want to discuss, they just want to complain.
I don’t want peace, only problems!
Problem is the devs then listen to them as feedback and make the game worse aka mk1
@@hands-ongaming7180 I didnt follow MK what happened?
There are 2 types of people in the FGC - those who vent and those who hate venting.
@@ProfKisuto I wish i could just ignore the people that vent but man I hate that so much of the online fgc spaces are just people venting 😂
0:40 I can feel Moste's rage through the screen
My takeaway from the content Sajam has been posting in this channel lately is this: All FGC discourse recently has been born exclusively from salty post-tournament loss tweets
A salty pro tweets that their game is trash, and scrubs parade it around until we're all forced to talk about it
I would include the rest of the playerbase too, they are also salty tweeting after losing and blaming the random mechanic that hit them once
@@SkribbleNL Or it's fans of prominent players who post salty post-tournament tweets when they're salty their guy lost.
I feel like this is another manifestation of when people complain about this or that move that has a lot of strengths but also very notable weaknesses, e.g. "sure you can 6P the 2nd hit of the rekka, but they can just stop the rekka early to punish my 6P so it's literally useless!" They just want to be able to be right every single time without having to think about it, and if the game is structured in a way where they have to guess or adapt, it's the game's fault and the game that needs to be fixed.
This needs to be pinned cause that’s basically all of FGC discourse. Afterwards when people refuse to adapt or lab or learn the match up etc, they start to scream for patches not realizing that because they refused to do the above, they’ll still lose.
@@balther10Now now, it's only half of FGC discourse. The other half is caused by pros tweeting while salty immediately after a tournament loss.
@@Ketsuekisan no lies detected. Both are equally annoying and drown out meaningful discussion. I kinda miss when fighting games were more niche
Think of the discourse in the rock paper scissors community, the horror~
MvC3: Strike/Strike (Throw) (Affectionate)
Unions: Strike/Strike (Derogatory if CEO otherwise Affectionate)
: Throw/Throw (Affectionate if fan, Derogatory if hater)
It's weird watching people complaining about SF 6 gameplay for every month and the complaints always changing lol. From DI is broken to DR is broken, Perfect Parry is broken, crouch MK > DR is broken, throw loop is broken, Marisa is broken, Ken is broken, JP is broken, Dee Jay is broken, strike/throw is disgusting, RPS is garbage, etc etc. All these complaints makes me wander if the FGC actually love the learning process in fighting games or they just want the easy way out: complaint to the developer and asked them to fixed their skill issues?
Playing Fighting Games is Better than Arguing on Twitter with People Who Don't. But of course people on Twitter don't play or understand the genre in a nuanced way and/or are trying to Gaslight the developers into benefiting their personal playstyle. Either way you can't take it seriously.
It's because all FGC discourse nowdays is based around salty post-tournament Tweets
You see, your mistake here is assuming that the FGC loves fighting games for the learning process - FGC loves fighting games because they win in fighting games. Most of them hate losing in general because they don't get to enjoy the gratification of winning and feeling like they "earned" the win through situations that are as varied as gambling. I mean, why do you think the biggest FG tourney in the world is held in Las Vegas, you know?
Beast blamers is what they are.
The people who love the learning process are too busy labbing and playing to complain online. You just end up with the vocal minority on Twitter or whatever
Unrelated but man I appreciate how digestible these vids/topics are. One of my favourite things about your content
If you strike/throw me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine
Moste getting spicy with the editor's comments recently is KILLING ME
I just wanna say Sajam, your past 5 videos including this one have been fantastic! Great run
I'm glad you like them, because in 5 months he'll post them all over again
@Sorrelhas I would rather repeated discussions about nuanced topics than talking about trends or new topics at a surface level. Looking at communities for games which get updated super frequently, topics of discussion end up being really poor and often just complaining about whatever given change rather than getting into the details
Street Fighter III is not a strike throw game they say as Makoto lands a karakusa and kills you while she’s cornered.
SF3 isn't a strike throw game because you can parry all the strikes.
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034Ah yes, but you can throw the parry. An option that gets beaten by throws but doesn’t get beaten by strikes if your predictions are correct. Blocking.
@@invincibleloonie well, technically you can always OS throw tech into your parry, so it becomes a high/low game instead of a strike/throw game
wow people already mischaracterizing 3s, amazing.
they probably dont play 3s, it very much is strike/throw just like every other fg.
Just watch J (Makoto) vs Kokukin (Dudley) for some real degeneracy.
What is an overhead/low but a strike/throw in the Y-Axis?
always interesting how people try to shield their ego with excuses when losing to something they deem unfair. And I am not immune to that but i grow ever more aware of this.
This is really funny, i recently played cammy up to diamond 1 and i was talking with a friend about how i didnt enjoy her strike / throw rushdown style. I then talked about how i much preferred kim because i thought alternating overheads / lows and throws to beat parry was fun. My specific reasoning was that as kim i can see my opponent blocking low or high the last time i get a meaty. As cammy if i do a block string im not entirely sure if they a delay teching and for me overhead / low just made more sense. In my eyes its just personal preference but its funny to me that people are so specific about how they judge a game and what will mark it as a bad game
don't let the people on Twitter will have never played a fighting game find out about high/low mix or their heads will explode
for me i thought strike throw was just describing how you open people up with a character. its usually Strike/throw, high/low, same side/crossup, and other shit like zoning fireball/flash kick. didnt know it was a more negative term to some people.
~BUT SAJAM what about rivals of aether, no blocking, no throwing, only strikes.
Based rivals of aether mention
And funnily enough a contingent of ROA fans are mad that ROA2 is going to have shields and throws and ledges. (I'm not one of those people, but there ya go.)
genuinely, look at melty blood aacc
not to say that throws have no relevance in aacc but a lot of offense in that game, much like rivals revolves around staggers and diverse angles of approach and working in delayed attacks to deny mashing/jumping and evade parry attempts
@@armorparade This is true, and i adore melty, however it is not at all balanced
The main mix in Tekken is mid/low. Throws exist but can be teched on reaction (King and a few other characters force the player to guess the break), so they are not the main form of breaking guard, while lows must either be evaded or blocked/parried crouching, which then opens you up to getting hit by a mid.
In the end, the rage that people felt in the arcades back in the day at getting thrown, such that they felt the need to threaten real physical violence on the other player who threw them, never really went away. It just got dampened somewhat by time.
But getting thrown still sucks. It still makes a certain class of people incredibly, irrationally angry.
Man, Soulcalibur's throws are so well designed.
I think one aspect that makes throws frustrating in sf6 especially is the time the animation takes. Seeing the same 3 second long animation gets annoying
not a fan of the "flickers of text" thing on a talk show clip
thanks for your insight
Fighting game player is scared of reading. More at 11.
@@dylanh.3793I hate pausing and rewinding just to see the messages because the editor refuses to just put it on screen for a few seconds
@@ellagage1256yeah but they are just relavant to maybe two seconds of discussion so its inclusion is more of a joke than an actual relevant graphic so it actually shouldnt be on screen long, unless the editor is willing to pause the clip to insert an opinion before letting the rest of the sajam vid you came to watch kept playing.
@@RaphDeGrate I mean it's obnoxious when the time it's on the screen is so short it makes it harder to even pause the video to actually read it. It's also (whether intentional or not) a bit scummy since it forces people to rewind over and over at one spot which helps with the UA-cam algorithm.
It's the type of thing I can tolerate in small amounts, but too much of it and I just stop watching the video/channel entirely
@@RaphDeGrate What good is a joke if you can't read it? If it's not really relevant, why include it? That's just extra work for what's ultimately not a good viewing experience.
we should direct these players to touhou hisoutensoku where there are no throws and its strike/escape-before-you-die
Somehow, it feels like we never escaped the "throws are cheap" era, despite throws having way more counterplay and not literally costing you money because you lost to them.
I'm not immune, sometimes when I get thrown I wanna call my opponent a dweeb. Then I realize I was probably just being too passive and go back to pressing my fat fuck off buttons with Juri or Giovanna or whatever.
When I say Iwant strikes to be stronger, I mean I want to pick dragon fire lui kang in mkx and run your shit.
Jeez the fgc is full of crybabies. There's always something to complain about with a lot of them. It gets exhausting when you just want to enjoy a game and it's community.
This video is almost a personal attack to leffen lmao
Wait until you play the Dead Or Alive series, where not only you can strike and throw but you can hold too.
Thanks for being one of the only content creators in the community taking time to actually define terms
strike/throw bad because I have to work to open people up unlike with honest high low 50/50s
For me, Strike/Throw (derogatory) is games where throws are really low reward and offensive pressure against someone confident enough to simply block feels very neutered. I don't mind playing against the simple simian instincts and using throws to spook people into trying to tech, but I need throws to at least be scary so people want to tech more often. Otherwise it's a high risk (they mash and beat my ass)/low reward (I throw them for little damage, they get up, we're in the same situation) option.
That said, this ain't commentary on current games; I'm so far removed from the modern generation of fighting games, I have absolutely 0 input on them.
What's up with Sajam including these frame perfect hidden text messages a la Tyler Durden? I'm almost having to plink the video control keys to read them.
If the throw isn't that strong in a game that's why we say "take the throw"
Some games let you combo off them so they are really bad, other times it's a hard knockdown or maybe it's even worse than that. So in a strike/throw situation unless you have like 1 hp just take the throw. Way better situation than eating a strike and potentially a 50% combo
I didn't pay 60 dollars to block strikes or tech throws!!!
I think part of this is how people learn games in general and how mechanics are presented. Some people and tutorials say strike/throw/block is a RPS system, which is intuitive because then you pick your strike Pokémon to beat the throw Pokémon. But the systems are more complicated than that and can be weighted towards certain options and suddenly it feels “unfair” when you’re constantly throwing rocks and losing. Wait, what were we talking about?
was very concerned when nearing the end of the video and not hearing the outro fade in
got outro jumpscared at the end tho
when I here "Strike/Throw (Derogatory)" my first thought is actually people calling a character weak in GGST, since strike throw is the weakest form of mix as opposed to high/low or left/right due to throw invulnerablity and throws losing to more than one defensive option
Tell that to Sol Badguy
@@joeyrhubarb2558 sol badguy forces mix all the god damn time
@@612minigun elaborate. Bandit revolver RC mix?
@@joeyrhubarb2558 Yeah that. Requires meter, but with his defensive tools and health pool, he always gets to do it at least once a match against most of the cast. And it is very potent since he can wallbreak into win game from almost anywhere in the screen.
A fragment from Seth Killian's Domination 101:
"“Cheap” tactics violate the sanctity of “blocking”. All scrubs seem to feel that blocking should be some sort of unimpeachable stronghold- a scrub “fortress of solitude”. Apparently the thinking is “When I’m blocking, no one should be able to hurt me, no matter what!”. Where this idea came from is anyone’s guess. Ever hear of blocking in Space Invaders? Could Pac-Man block? Blocked any quad-damage railgun shots lately? No. But the scrub still feels somehow especially violated when he’s hunkered down, jamming the stick into block, and something still disappears off his lifebar. “What the hell! I was BLOCKING!”
Well… so what? What is it about the block that makes the scrub feel he’s entered the magical-happy land of no damage, no worries, and no threats? I have no idea. The fact is, he isn’t in that happy place. It just isn’t true. It was never true, of course, although enough people insisted on playing make-believe for so long that they almost believe it now. And when someone walks up and, say, throws them, giving them the unpleasant reality check that reminds them they were playing make-believe, the poor widdle scwubs get all upset.
The reason the Capcom designers didn’t make blocking completely impervious to damage is extremely obvious- if they had, the game would be reduced to a question of who could hit who first, then block like a madman for the rest of the round. That would suck."
God, you can tell this shit's old when QUAKE is used as an example that everyone ks supposed to be familiar...
But as per usual, Seth Killian was merciless and also entirely correct and, like, two decades ahead of the Twitter Discourse Meta lmao
Go play ST on fightcade and tell me throws weren't cheap back then. I feel for the boomers that got tick thrown looped in the arcades, that shit sucks.
Editor seems passionate about this one. Gotta say I'd be down for some more Moste input in the future.
i think maybe throws feel more frustrating to get hit by because of the long(ish) animation. some combos can be very long too of course, but there's something different about the high reward of just one move that i think can tilt people.
I remember people saying "this sfv game is so scrubby its all strike throw" and as a new player at the time i genuinely had a tough time figuring out why that was a complaint
i'm mashing on wakeup and no one can stop me
chun's stand strong in ST is strike/throw (derogatory)
I'm just bad at strike/throw, both on my offense and defense. Give me crazy mixups so I can say "I'm godlike" when I open up my opponent and "there was no way I could have blocked that" when they do it to me
I didn't realize someone could use strike/throw as a derogatory term lol
Sajam, it's simple.
If I'm in a situation that I realistically could not have avoided, and I have to pick between two or three options otherwise I immediately get hit, then that's called "set play" and it's boring and should be avoided, or at least made not-worth-going-for by the one initiating the mixup. That is what people mean, and strike/throw is just an example.
And no, this type of mixup is not necessarily in every fighting game, because you can make mixups more dynamic and flowing into each other, rather than just immediately paying out the "correct" player. Using a guard gauge is just one example. If a character in Street Fighter 6 has no command throws, and no overheads, and no crossups, and no significant Burnout pressure, then they're just a bottom tier character because the opponent can block everything. By adding a guard gauge, you don't need any of that to be a good character, because maybe you're really good at threatening guard breaks. Blocking something doesn't immediately payout one player, but blocking too many times in a row does, so you'll eventually have to do something more risky on defense... but you're never forced to. You could have escaped the previous layers, and not had to deal with the guard break, but you chose the easy survival one or two times, and now you can't choose it a third time. Likewise, the opponent now has to guess when and how you'll take your defensive risk, and the game becomes a thousand times more interesting.
Shen from KoF XIII is the perfect example. He has a very bad command throw, no overheads, no crossups, no significant chip damage, average movement, high damage (but every character has high damage in that game), and even has trouble starting combos without landing a heavy normal. But he's still very strong, because you don't need any of that to play KoF, seeing as how it has a guard gauge. He can just hop at you over and over again, and, if you don't predict at least one with an anti-air, he just wins.
And this is very similar to what Street Fighter 6 does with Burnout on a mechanical level, but the game isn't balanced around it. KoF also removes the ability to do 50/50 strike/throw mixups by making you invincible to throws for 10 frames after hitstun/blockstun, which means it literally replaces the less interesting mixup with the more interesting mixup. In Street Fighter 6, you just get tick thrown into Zangief Level 3 Super and die. The only way to escape both the strike and the throw when Zangief is at least +2 is to spend meter on an unsafe-on-block reversal. And, if you guess right and jump the throw, HE dies. Someone's dying whenever he does Level 3, and that's the definition of a non-interesting mixup.
This is the right take. Strike/Throw in the way it is now is just not interesting. Its higher risk and higher reward, but gambling always feels terrible when youre on the losing side because theres nothing you can do outside of "guess better"
Usually what I mean with a Strike/Throw game is the game having weak or no left/right, high/low and plus frame mix. Because all mix options are so weak all characters default to knockdown into meaty mid or grab. Rinse and repeat. Strike/Throw should not be every characters default but more an option in addition to their own flavor of mix.
What crazy is in my day strike/throw was used to me in a game didn't have very good strike mix. All games have unreactable mix-ups.
I keep losing the mix-up of the shaking white text. XD
I’m not throwing shade but I feel I hear this way more from the anime community.
I remember watching some guilty gear tier lists and a character “just being strike throw” for the offence is always a negative
This is great, I never articulated in my mind what he says about Command Grabs - that you can’t tech them, that you’re supposed to avoid them but that could also open you up. I’ve always avoided Grabs because they’re scary, so it’s more of a panicky “ONG get me out of here!” 😂 But now I’ll be more intentional about it, mm!🎉
What about strike/timer games?
Tekken players say take the lows instead of take the throws especially in the corner. Its a slightly different version of strike throws.
I never understood what people meant by strike/throw and at this point I'm too afraid to ask
I think Touhou 12.3 is one of the only fighting game I can think of that’s not strike/throw- that game centralizes around projectiles and strikes, instead, which makes it very unique. The only character with anything resembling a grab is Suika.
sometimes punch, sometimes grab
Appreciate you bringing some reason into the discourse.
An aside, but I'm the weirdo that likes throw loops and drive rushes. I don't know, it feels like there's counterplay for everything in the game thanks to the system mechanics, and i like that. But it's not free either - I at least am horrible at hitting perfect parries. And I think it's good that defense isn't braindead personally, well at least at my level.
I don't mind the Strike/Throw that much, it is only the wiggle on wakeup that I think is stupid.
My only problem with throws in SF6, is that the whiff recovery is too short. I think if I read throw and am willing to take a big risk on jump or backdash I should be rewarded.
I think a successful throw could be even stronger. Like giving better oki or meter gain but I also think whiffing a throw should be more dangerous.
When I say "this game is strike/throw" I mean "this game doesn't have MvC or DBFZ style 4 way, unreactable mixups"
SF6 is literally a strike/throw game tho cause you can hold parry during all the strike mixups and completely invalidate them.
Understanding & expressing your inner feelings is hard.
Taking the OS to strike/throw is easy bc you totally understand what I mean broseph, if you play at a high level (like me). /s
Using strike/throw as a derogatory term, is like using "dogwater" as an insult against someone over the age of 25.
L
wait do people actually dogwater as a real insult, i thought that was purely a funny one
@@lonleyduck the irony of responding to this metaphor with "L"
@@Hrybread he'll yeah I'm glad you understood 😆
I've been saying dogwater my whole life, just because you'd never heard a phrase before zoomers popularized it doesn't mean they invented it. Like "glizzies".
To me strike/throw means "No overheads that are practical to convert"
Games become a footsie game once people play it long enough
Not time going by but people really tryna play it
Yea 3rd strike the “parry/throw OS” game
I'm a for honor player, and the only thing that got nerfed through strike and throw was the environment, they baby-proofed it for all the whiners. No more spikes, lava, etc. Because "muh fair fight" in a weapon's based fighting game doesn't rely on terrain.
Ironically it does.
very much-so, I miss the good ol' days.@@hands-ongaming7180
Sajam is so eloquent
Tekken really isn't strike/throw. Yes you have both, but one option doesn't lose to the other in a coin flip guessing game, Which is the main criticism. It is a mid/low game though, because that is the main tool to opening people up that is simply a guess. Eating 5 throws in a row in SF is equivalent to Eating 5 lows in a row in Tekken.
The core difference though is that Tekken has far more effective option selects and tools for hard reads on ANY attack (high, low, throw, etc.) That don't make that interaction a true 50/50
I'd call Tekken more of a mid/low game than a strike/throw game. Lows are the main way to punish stand blocking.
This is always so funny. You can come up with valid complaints. You can complain about any game... but as an old head, strike/throw is the noblest mixup, so ifsomeone is whining about hating strike/throw it just sounds super scrubby.
where is the link to the clip in the video?
0:40 lmao
Keep bringing the content. It's keeping my sajussy happy
Idk if I liked that…but it’s true
☹
On one hand you didn't have to bring that into the world. On the other hand I'm glad you did.
i much prefer having to take a unreactable 50/50 then have to take a strike throw i just find it more fun which is why cf is one of my fav games throws are mostly a "you awake?" check
You would rather take cancer instead of just taking a throw?
@@balther10 dude just can't tech, that's a good chunk of anime players
@@GuelermeDias that’s what training mode is for
I strike my Hitbox, hurt my hand, then throw it on the ground
This is mostly sarcasm, but those things are sturdy I’ve hurt myself too many times trying to smack it
I find it weird when people complain that fighting games are strike/throw. It's like "damn, yet another Tank/Healer/DPS RPG"
Tekken is actually a strike/bullshit-tracking-throw game
Strikes? What is that? Never heard of it. In SF6 we play Drive Rush Throw.
Maybe include the clip in the video for context for those of us that value our mental health too much to be on tweeter?
It annoys me more how non-fighting games with strike/throw/blocking tamper with the relationship. Grabs that have priority over strikes and may have to be blocked are heinous
My tin foil hat theory is that it all leads back to anti-grappler propaganda somehow.
it feels strange to say this but I feel like I'm at the point where I just expect people to not be able to accurately describe what they don't like about a game any more. In every community within every genre it feels like people latch onto short phrases that don't actually mean anything to express why they don't enjoy the game but then have a hard time actually describing what things specifically they are bouncing off of. It's a little bit concerning tbh
Its funny how people complain about strike throw being too strong now cause back when Dragonball first came out any character that had to rely on staggers and strike throw was considered a waste of a character slot and people talked shit that strike throw wasnt even a real mixup in other games like Xrd an Unist.
game I like: based footsie game
game I dislike: strike/throw baby game
Regurgitated Sajam takes hivemind isn't enough to outweigh regurgitated salty top-player-post-loss FGC hivemind, but it helps
King is a strike/throw character
seriously why the fk does he have better counterhits than STEVE while also having arguably the best throw game?
we need Marduk in Tekken 8 and make him a heavy counter to King.
Marduk soon
So u want more cancer? You definitely played top tier in t7
King is king. At this point that's his identity. It was in 7 also.
Marduk with heat 💀
Because the defensive mechanics are weak, you can a plethora of options but if they're all lackluster it doesn't really add up to much.
If used in derogatory way I thought it means that game doesn't have other components in the offense and it is mostly strike/throw there for it gets boring and lacks diversity in styles.
even dark souls, which most people wouldnt regard as a "fighting game," has a handful of grapples/throws haha