@@TheNobleFive and the graphics. People want that golden standard to be met you know 🙂 And that golden standard would be DNF Duel, GG Strive, anything from recent ArcSys games.
@Lucas Wibisono unfortunately SF hasn't looked good since SF3 because of the change to full 3D, and they can't really go back to 2D at this point anymore. I know ArcSys does 3D as well but you can't tell unless camera changes to some certain angles like on counter hits.
Great example of this: Marn in UMVC3 couldn't do Zero's lightning loops consistently if he was P2 side, so instead he would work on mixups for P2 corner and loops for P1 corner. Play to your strengths but be aware of, and cover your weaknesses.
You take breaks and try not to beat yourself up. I used to have a terrible mentality but I was able to work on it after years. For example I thought 623 moves were 9731 inputs when I first played SF4, I also thought you had to jump and then do a motion to do tk moves until I learned Baiken in Xrd and learned 2369. Focus on the little things and try not to look at your day-to-day, "if you take a step a day eventually you'll have walked miles" and all that
Haha accurate. At this rate I don’t know what the FGC wants. They asked no more comeback mechanics like V-trigger. But when Capcom added Just Frame move that requires more skill, the FGC also got angry. So what actually the FGC wants??? 🤦♂️
@@spidericktehdarkandstuff7417 100% it's almost like large groups of people consist of individuals that can have different opinions and desires from one another.
The three-pointer line is an arbitrary execution check that most players can't consistently pull off while also being basically a requirement to play. Why ever go for layups that only give two points when you can make a basket that always gives three? It gets in the way of the strategy of basketball and gatekeeps everyone who's not a pro, get rid of it.
yeah i was talking about this recently cos i had someone criticise my game as i don't do KBMF loops or really anything complex with potemkin as i mostly go for knockdowns, mix and space control, like, i know i drop long combos and I'm not great with timing so i focus on what I am good at, guessing what my opponent is gonna do next. it's good to hear that i'm going about this the right way
Pot as a character has a really strong "simple" game. KBMF loops are *good* , they do good damage, and KBMF is scary, but a Pot that just walks you down, does slidehead reading your attack consistently, hammerfall breaks in after, and knows how to do both Garuda pressure and get c.S/Pot buster 50/50s is scary *and* effective. Really strong character for keeping it simple and relying on reads and good pressure.
I'm a grappler player and I'm bad at 720 so I did the same thing and focused on knockdowns and fear mongering before 720s and I'm still bad at them but I can do it sometimes lol
@@deBILLitation honestly if you can do a move once and land it you dont even have to use it again because the fear will be in your opponents head that you might use it
One of the biggest mistakes new players make is overemphasizing execution. In reality you'll get further faster if you keep it simple at the start and learn the actual meat of the game. The executions will be easier if the game around it is more familiar to you before you stress learning them. Every new character I pick up I tend to learn 3 basic conversions for likely scenarios. Usually a light confirm, a simple heavy confirm, and an AA confirm if it applies. If you start off worrying about your big combos you'll find the situations they come up in rarer and when they do come up you'll often miss them due to having too much thought economy involved in the situation itself.
THIS. I hear this so often from people who don't play FGs on why they dont want to touch them. They think it's this hyper-precise game of doing frame-perfect link into frame-perfect link.
I'm learning Milia in GGST and struggling to realize what to do when I get hits, because she's so incredibly fast-paced. Blockstring or conversion? Just enough distance to hit with j.HS and then what? ((microdash) 2K 2D 236HS but I just learnt that) on and on, real fast gameplay, having to abuse the air, realizing my spacing in practice... I don't know if this is something that must be muscle memoried to lower thought economy or if I'm supposed to actually increase my execution to play Milia at a default level.
@@angelsoflolz when you are first starting out, you should simply learn what your buttons do and what they can go into. A few basic conversions are fine but dont get obsessed with having an answer for every situation. From there just play, and get a feel for the game. What you want not occupying to much of your mental economy is yourself in a neutral state. You should be able to move and position at your ranges without to much thought because your focus should be on your opponent and what they are doing. Once you get in the habit of this, understanding the entire situation becomes easier and you'll be more prepared for when combo opportunities arise. Theres no point in knowing a big optimal combo off of uncommon situations before you understand when and why they would come up. As an example, when I learned G in SF, I started by learning his very common very accessible conversion of dash straight dash low wheel kick at pres level 2. Mostly because like I said, the opportunities come up very often. From there I learned mostly used it off his st lk. Its a great whiff punish button, it combos out of his st lp and st mp and level 1 wheel kick, so I've covered two very common buttons for punishes. Even better, pre pres level 2, he can still light dash straight or low for a knockdown. By sticking to this simple plan, I can get used to these situations as they come up, and over time they become natural, so I can start adding on more or trying new things. Over time I learned that CH st mp combos into cr HP which combos into lvl 1 wheel kick, which leads to a situation I'm completely used too, st lk confirm. Basically, start with a small reliable plan and as it becomes overly familiar along with the gameplay itself, you'll have the available focus to branch out and experiment. However if you go in with a big plan before you know anything consistently, you'll find yourself hesitating looking for several answers to several variable situations and finding little success converting those situations. Be patient, take it slow, and try to remember that growth takes time.
thought economy is a really good term for it. I got pretty far for a beginner (floor 7 ish) as potemkin in strive without ever doing a command grab because I had some decent damaging confirms, pokes, and anti-airs. now that I can execute pot buster and kara's easier, I still feel like I'm growing as a player at floor 8/9
Your right. I play gg strive and i main ky but I been wanting to switch and try out other characters like testament or zato but I always look at their entire kit and feel like I NEED to master everything to be effective and I get overwhelmed by all the combos too but i just need to make it simple and take it step by step
It's amazing how much people complained about this when there will definitely be people who will main guile, never rely on perfect booms and get ranks higher than 99% of the ones complaining ever will get
@@no_nameyouknowperfect parry is not easy, as far as I know it's a 2 frame window. Which is a 5th of what 3rd strike's is. It's just not super risky to go for since if you mistime it you get regular parry which is essentially blocking without taking chip.
As a newbie to fighting games, it's interesting to have gone from "this game requires to much execution" to "this isn't actually that hard". It took me setting aside ego and realizing I needed to actually learn. And as I've played more against better players I've found some players just knowledge check me. See if I knew the answer to what they were doing. That, I think, is when I found out I really enjoyed improving. Because it didn't feel like they were doing some cheap tactic, they basically just asked "can you answer this, yes or no"
A scenario that happens a lot in fighting games is when your opponent is almost dead and you land a hit. You have a moment to decide what combo you’re going to do. You have to rely on your execution to not drop the harder combo or you have to go for the weaker combo and then rely on your fundamentals to land one more hit. Execution is a good thing
And you have to have the presence of mind under pressure to not just mess up the easy one too because you overthought it. You have that split second to decide what combo to do, and just having to make the snap decision in the pressure can throw you off. The decision-making AND execution are both clutch as a result.
The type of stuff people say about the FGC is EXACTLY the same as what people say about competitive Yu-gi-oh. "They just all play the broken cards." "Everyone's deck is exactly the same." "I don't want to sit through a 10 minute unbeatable combo." And, of course, "I miss the old game. It was good back then." (It was not) Everyone needs to learn eventually no one actually knows what they're talking about.
I ain't gonna lie, the third YGO quote/point you brought up is something I still embarrassingly hold to be true to myself very ignorantly to this day. But it's very stupid of me to do so cause I don't bother to genuinely engage with good counter arguments to my complaint. I think, if I had to guess why I do that, hearing all the counter explanations that disprove my complaint just "feels" overwhelming to hear. Like, I come off "feeling"(key word) assuming I have to front load myself with encyclopedia levels understandings of YGO to "play properly" if Im looking to even want to start at all. Thus making me think "man, I just wanna play this card game so I can do cool shit myself too with these badass looking monsters. Not feel like I have to learn a Master's level college course before I can feel ready to play at any capacity" Its even more ridiculous for me to have this thought because I'm the one over here trying to dispell any similar sounding discouragements/negative stigmas new people have trouble with when first approaching the fighting game genre lol But like Sajam has said before, you don't need to learn everything at the start. Just pick up the basics and focus on a couple of basic strats that works for you and go from there. Then just keep striving to improve and pick up on the other stuff you were too unconfident to engage with previously. Maybe it'll finally make sense, maybe it won't, but you don't have to HAVE to learn everything to be a real good player. Someday I'll finally hunker down and give a good swing at YGO...Someday...lol
@@shman5000o Very few decks ACTUALLY have combos that long, thoigh it can feel like it as a new player. Seeing your opponent use over 20 cards you've never read can be overwhelming, and especially demoralizing when you realize you went into the game unprepared and your deck has no way to win in the first place. It's definitely the argument with the most validity, but most of the time it's a bit exaggerated.
Those statements are just exaggerated problems of card games in general but I think yugioh easily has it the worst which is why it gets the most shit from the community
To be fair, I definitely ran into 10 minute turns when I played Master Duel. As someone who was new to the game, it was not fun and definitely unbeatable for me.
@@Boyzby Yeah, I won't say it can't happen, it definitely does. Especially in Master Duel since things run a bit slower than in IRL play. It's mostly just a part of the game you have to learn to deal with. It's like playing 3rd Strike and complaining about Urien doing unnlockable, it's just a part of the game.
I can't believe something as simple as "do thing with better timing to get better rewards" is what sets this off. It's not even something unique to fighting games!
Fr like the perfect reload in gears of war. Yes you can do the regular reload, but you can also do a slightly harder reload to reload faster and do more damage? It's been a while since I played so all I remember is you just reload faster
As someone on the newer end of fighting games, I'm confused by people getting so mad about this. This is the kind of execution gating I would much rather see rather see. Sonic boom is still there, you can still use that, and I highly doubt it's going to stop being part of the core of the character. Are the perfect booms better? Yes, but I highly doubt you are going to be locked out of the character by not being able to do it. Plus there's the simple inputs mode for beginners. So far I'm liking the approach to execution I'm seeing in SF6, let the execution floor be lower, while giving improvements for reaching the execution ceiling.
This is one thing I didn't like about alot of modern fgs like type lumina. An ideal fg is one where you have approachable systems like a good tutorial, good training mode, good offline content like what blazblue had. Taking away depth from an fg doesn't make it more approachable in a meaningful way, it hurts the people that care for that depth for the benefit of someone that wouldn't give the game the time of day anyway, while simultaneously not launching with things that would interest a non fg player
"The reason that fighting games are _fun_ is that they are *fast* and they test *so* many aspects of you as a person at the same time..." 9:05 "...and you're not gonna be maxed out at all of them, right? You will have to _pick & choose_ which things you will try to improve at and some things you will naturally be *worse* then others at" 9:24 Evo-winning 🏆 quotes right here.
I'm so glad you referenced that Day9 video. So much of it is relevant to learning fighting games, or really any complex competitive game. Similarly, when Day9 was on the Tasteless podcast, they discussed how execution requirements affect how strategies develop in Brood War, and use these same ideas to draw parallels about people's misconceptions about both RTS and fighting games. I'll never not be enthralled by Day9 talking about game design. Highly recommend the podcast.
I couldn't do SF4 Fuerte loops to save my life. And that's why I never played Fuerte or C Viper super seriously. I gravitated more towards other characters like Juri and Ryu. That's the important part to me: execution barriers need to vary greatly between characters and not be a universal systemic thing. Extremely high execution is something that's important to have but only sprinkled here and there. There's no denying that it adds a lot of hype when you see someone pulling off a hard combo. It just shouldn't be a barrier that every character has.
Why not though? Every character having a natural progression into more demanding execution is part of what makes delving into characters interesting. It's fine to have characters that are less demanding, obviously, but every character should have more complex goals at some point imo. It's what lets you show that you've mastered your character.
@@felixc.4294 You CAN have a game with universal mechanics that require god execution. Like let's say every character has stance cancels, run cancels, instant air fireball/dive kicks, 1 frame links and just frame Electrics that do 200% more juggle damage. That game could exist but it would be pretty niche. Something that a few korean and pakistani nerds dominate while everyone else sucks at it. :)
@@felixc.4294 The thing is we are not talking about characters that just get access to more stuff with higher execution that adds to their base gameplan and overall fun factor. El Fuerte, C.Viper and some other characters like Ibuki are characters that if you can't do their more execution heavy stuff you really can't play them at a base level and are half way wasting your time. Ibuki needs to land her links so she can get the proper knock down off every hit because outside set play she is kind of bad. What you are talking about is a character like Xrd Sol where you can run his base gameplan with relatively low execution and that higher just adds on additional options and rewards. Even then he has a lot of alternate routing. Like yeah you could do dust loops but if you can't or do want to risk dropping the combo and losing out on that sweet oki he has a lot of less damaging but still rewarding corner routes that allows him to take advantage of his corner game.
Ok it sounded like I was talking shit about Tekken but I'm not really. The only universal mechanic that requires good execution is korean backdash. But even Tekken has good execution variety: Mishimas and stance characters are the most difficult to play. Law and Jack are pretty easy by comparison. They even have Katarina for beginners since she can just spam kicks over and over. Would Tekken be better without korean backdash? My opinion is yes because it would be 100x more accessible and fun. But I'm sure Tekken pros want it to stay because they mastered it.
For some reason people think that the character will just be denied to them if they can't do a perfect boom The funny thing is that it'll probably be something along the lines of "it takes 80 frames to charge a boom, so if you release at frames 78 to 82 you'll get the perfect boom", something that just requires a bit of practice
Thanks for this reminder. I've been visiting some older titles (mostly BBCF and +R) because the player experience in modern fgs gets on my nerves sometimes with the towers in strive and the waiting in KOF, but I was discouraged to keep playing because I had lost my ability to do some of the execution heavy stuff. Gotta remind myself that it's ok to build up to it and that it is possible to form game plans around sub optimal combos. The grind continues.
Man I play Ash and I don't even can do the whole install combo, I simply enjoy what I can from the character and do the combos I can perform for sure, cheers
Idk about bbcf but with +R one really frustrating thing is that, despite the quick match system being godlike, most people who use it are pretty good at the game and it's hard to find someone your skill level I suggest joining the +R discord server for that if you feel like it, makes it easier to match with new players
A key thing for people to keep in mind, as far as we know they didn't make guile harder at all, the same level of execution as before can get you the same success, they just added a thing for people who gave blood sacrifices to Heihachi for electrics. They didn't gate something that already existed behind that execution, you'll be the same Guile as before if you can't do perfect booms.
Yes and no. If they get a character that's still balanced the same way as they were in comparison to the rest of the cast, and add a new tool that is very good, even if hard, it *could* be too strong, so they might just have made the rest of the kit's worse without the boom (relative to the cast). This may or may not be a big deal for his playstyle, we will not know until the game actually comes out, if the perfect boom is gonna be core to his new SF6 self, or if it kinda won't matter. Despite this though, even if it *is* core to his new gameplan, it's not like having some characters demand less or more execution is *bad* , if someone really wants to play Guile, I doubt it'll take them that long to learn this extra technique, and if they don't want to learn it, there's still the rest of the cast. It might be a big deal or it might not be to playing Guile, but I don't see it as a *bad* thing either ways.
It's not the same because every time you use a imperfect Sonic Boom is a reminder that your execution is not good enough for SF6 Guile. It would be easy to ignore if it was only used as part of a hard combo that doesn't happen often but Guile players need to throw a hundred Sonic Booms a round.
@@kevl0rneswath Except the game hasn't come out and no one really knows if throwing a regular boom instead of a perfect boom in neutral is gonna be a big deal or not, isn't it? And besides, even if it is a key aspect to Guile's toolset, which it might be, it may not really be that hard at all it's likely that this is going to be at *most* as hard as doing idk, TK note with I-No in Strive, which takes 15 mins of practice, and even if it is, Guile is in fact, not the only character in SF6 and not the easiest one either most likely, if you don't enjoy part of a character's core gameplay or execution in a game then well... Pick someone you do. I feel like a lot of people tend to either deify or condemn execution requirements in fighting games when in reality it isn't a big deal, and it's certainly not a *bigger* deal than spray patterns and quick one tap mechanical aim in games like Valorant or CS:GO.
@@AgentBacalhau If you have to tell people to pick another character because of execution, then the execution is gatekeeping, isn't it? If would actually be a lot less of a difference if it was Flash Kick that had a perfect version cause then it's a lot less necessary to learn but Sonic Boom is way too core to Guile's gameplay.
@@kevl0rneswath No, it's not gatekeeping, it's just saying "if you don't *want* to learn this skill, go do something you *want* to do, whatever that might be, in the game". By that argument telling someone to use the Phantom if they don't enjoy/wanna learn to control the Vandal's recoil, since it's basically just as good, but different, in Valorant would be gatekeeping. Telling someone they could pick Jett if they don't want to learn Raze movement in Valorant would be gatekeeping. Telling someone to pick Demoman if they don't want to learn Soldier movement in TF2 would be too. I'm not saying you're not *allowed* to play Guile, just that if you don't enjoy one of the skills he is going to require you're better off playing someone that doesn't require that skill. Everyone is allowed to play him just the same. It's just that some people will enjoy the skill requirement and some won't, and that's fine, there's a whole cast of characters cause you can't make every character meant for everyone. If you make everyone require little execution you'll alienate technical players, and if you make everyone require loads of it, you'll alienate people who don't enjoy execution requirements, as such, you make a varied cast.
One of my favorite things is learning something executionally that give a character entirely new options, doing Kara inputs as potemkin really opens him up and makes him much scarier at more ranges, it sucks for people who can’t do it or just don’t know because I think it makes pot a significantly better character but boy is Kara buster, or Kara Garuda or Kara back megafist satisfying to do once you get it down
The secret here is: the game needs to teach this to players that want to get better and do cool stuff, something that GGST do well with Mission and Combo Maker modes.
The two sonic booms travel at different speeds, so they have different uses. The slower boom, for example, you may want to use for oki and setups. The faster one you can use for combos and footsies. Plus, the ex boom is probably as fast as the perfect one judging by how they made Ryu and Chun's ex's.
There's also different speeds with the different strengths if it's anything like any other sf game. So even if the perfect one is the fastest it might not be that big of a deal
I've got to say, as someone with a very casual interest in FG's, who only plays occasionally, your channel is a huge encouragement and inspiration, especially about the parts in here regarding strategizing around your own execution ability. I've been scared off of large combos due to an extreme lack of robot devil hands, and have gravitated towards characters that don't really centralize combos as a result. This video just feels good to hear and watch, and is probably going to hang around in my head as I keep trying to play (at least a little) better on my own terms.
This is my favorite video that you've put out because I haven't been able to properly articulate to my friends why motion inputs aren't an arbitrary addition to the game.
I play Potemkin. I can't hit confirm, I can't reversal, my best combos are f.S>5H or 2D>FMF, I can't do Pot Buster, I only use meter for yrc and mirror super. I got to floor 10. Thinking that you HAD to do hard execution was what kept me out of fighting games for so long. Sajam's hype for Strive is what got me started.
In essence: We are RPG characters. We expect ourselves to be at max stats and be the best in every possible aspect but in reality, everyone has their own stats that they excel in and others that they dont. If we put ourselves in situations where we can play to our strengths, we will win more rather than when we constantly worry about our weaknesses
I still remember the day my friend laughed at me for buying Geese Howard in Tekken 7. Then I poked him all game with basic buttons and won. Godlike execution doesn't mean anything if you win neutral over and over.
"lot of people got into fighting games or get into fighting games because of that right they like see something that's hard or something that's cool and they're like yeah i want to try that" What can I say, Big Band playing Guile's theme is hype
The executional quirks are a unique part of the genre that give it flavor, and removing it is stripping out a key aspect of these games. I find leveling up my execution to be pretty fun, especially since I put money into an arcade stick and the tactical feedback I get from using it to do fighting game execution is great and fun.
Also, if you drop the p-boom, you dont get too punished, you just get a regular boom, which still combos but is less rewarding. a really nice way to increase the ceiling, but not bring up the floor.
its very funny looking back on this. Guile's Perfect Boom turned out to be such a nothing of a mechanic. It's basically every once in a while you will hear Guile say 'Sonic Boom' instead of 'PERFECT!' Honestly which they would just get rid of Perfect booms and just make all of them perfect so Guile can actually say the name of his special move again.
7:26 something to keep in mind is that maybe someone at a lower level actually has really good timing and they can get the rhythm down on his 'perfect booms' easily, but is kind of bad at everything else. This can technically reward you for being good at a specific thing that might not be common
Great vid. Succintly boiled down the point I think many of us in the fighting game community have been trying to make for years. So many non-fighting game fans saying fighting games would be better without, excution barriers and all we hear is 'this neopoltan ice cream would be better if there wasn't chocolate'. Subbed and as soon as SF6 comes out I'll ring the bell.
This is like, exactly why I stopped playing Karin in SFV. I couldn't reliably do her just-frames. It was frustrating me that I couldn't "play her right" and I decided that I should play someone else. But looking back now, I think I could have stuck with her. My neutral was fine and my pressure was solid. But since I didn't get the perfect combos I ran to Alex. I don't regret a thing.
ALSO let's be real. Everyone's raising a stink about Guile's perfect Booms but nobody's batting an eye at what perfect Luke combos are going to look like. They're gonna be tough with those small frame-windows to hold his punch specials for.
I swear these discussions are some of my favorite UA-cam videos to watch ever, because its just like you said these things apply to every game, people often just immediately put down fighting games for the aspects every other game also has. Plus the perspective too! I play a lot of genres, there was a time I played Sajam randomly in runeterra and tweeted at him about it. There’s so much overlap, fighting games and card games are similar too- but I think you’d have to get engaged at a decent level of both to begin to understand
As a FGC newb, as in playing BBCF for six months, having shit I can’t do is also kinda enticing because I can’t do it NOW, but if I work on it, I can do it EVENTUALLY. There is always something to work on, and something new the game can offer you.
In chess they talk about opening preparation, memorising the moves your opponent may make and their optimal responses. Seems very similar to hitting the lab in a fighting game!
Holy shit, Sajam you cant just drop a surprise Day9 reference in the middle of your video, I was determined to be grumpy today and now that's impossible.
As a tekken player I really like this change. Not because I play Heihachi or anything, but because it gives other people something to strive for, improving their execution and the decision making that comes with it
I feel like at its core, people just want things to be easy for them and hard for their opponents. That's why people keep complaining about execution barriers instead of switching to, say, board games with zero execution (especially when they lack the randomness) - because you only have yourself to blame there. But hey, having a scapegoat like dropped inputs or the luck of the draw is not a bad thing either: it means you can keep playing without feeling like an utter failure until you maybe get better at it.
@@efronlicht1043 i’m celestial so i feel like a fake Zato wouldn’t get me far 😪 i enjoy toying around with him in training mode though maybe i’ll be more confident and try him online
Kings grapples was what got me as far as hard combos go, it was the first thing as a fighting game that I said "I want to do this" and took the time to learn it.
Simultaneous freak-outs over both adding and removing execution requirements to a game is a perfect example of why you can't make things for "the crowd," and why obsessing over mass appeal is quixotic. There is no monolithic "crowd," that idea is made up. The best anyone can do is to make something cool, and trust that the people who are going to like it will find it.
I like that execution barriers could allow you to find creative solutions to things you otherwise wouldn't. I think it's something that can add significant things to your identity as a player. Kinda like Naruto using a shadow clone to do rasengan. On the flip side of developing OSes on defense it's kinda like how LK said he builds strings to target things automatically and inspired me to do the same. Good video!
7:39 not saying it's a waste (though it might be) but at this point, rather than trying to rationalize with people who dunk on fighting game execution without thought, we just break it down using metaphors of things they're confident in and hold their egos accountable, like the lineup example with valo or: > can you type fast? (some pretentious answer about 200+ wpm) > can you type "dsad", "dsd", "dsawdsawdsawd" > that's literally the motion for a command grab, dp, and gl's 1080 churn i'm not even sure why people are mad at guile's perfect booms, the idea behind internalizing how long 0.75 second is or tap two buttons at the same time are things that gaming as an entire industry have made use of for the longest time. there are way more egregious cases of "execution barriers" but this aint one of them.
As a person who (for some unexplained reason) ends up playing decently high-execution characters while not having good execution (ex. SFV Zeku, +R Johnny and Venom) I don’t think this will really be a massive problem. You don’t need high execution to play these characters against people of your skill level, after all, they’re probably in the same boat you are.
Execution is probably where I'm weakest. so I spend a ton of time labbing combos and practicing tech. I strait pop off when I land the thing I've been trying to learn. I hope Guile isn't the only character with tech like this. I love learning advanced stuff with characters. Its like an irl level up.
Sajam almost always has the best takes. There are tons of people who downplay how hard tight timings are. It's super toxic and sucks. It seems like Sajams stance is 'they are hard and that is okay; it's part of the design space.'
I feel that many people have a hard time abstracting fighting games like you do to compare them to shooting games. Maybe just subconciously, people see a man on screen in their fighting game and think of him like a man on screen in their shooter game. To them, every button in the fighting game is "shoot that guy" and when the game makes it harder to "shoot that guy" through means like a perfect sonic boom, or a PEWGF, they get frusturated that they're not just able to shoot a guy with every gun they have
The funny part is that I see this, hear that it might be something you get from like perfectly timed SBs and as someone that is a lousy combo-peddler, I think I could take a crack at this and have fun. One of the things that tends to not get discussed when talking about combo plays is that execution can be difficult for multiple reasons and you can be better or worse at different kinds of combos. Sometimes a combo can be difficult, because it requires really precise positioning through cancels and specific jumps. Sometimes a combo can be hard, because it's a long string that only really pays off really deep into it. Sometimes a combo can be difficult, because there's a really tight link you gotta hit to confirm properly. Sometimes it's a combination of any one of these. What it looks like this combo does looks like something I could get good at, even though my execution isn't that good. I get really jittery with long strings and tend to throw something in there that messes the whole thing up due to impulse. When I look for characters in a fighter, I'm looking for dudes that can get good damage off of fewer buttons. I see alot of the crazy combos other Sin players in Xrd can do, but as long as 5h/6s - Elk - Driver works, I'm gonna keep using it, because it's simple, does good amounts and puts me in a controlling position of the space, even if you reset to neutral. While I can imagine this perfect Sonic Boom is probably frame-perfect or close to, the combo itself is only like 4 inputs. Sure, there's a charge in there, but there isn't as much room for me to mess up in that combo. It's the long strings that get me messed up, I can deal with doing precise timing. I'm pretty good at nailing just-guards in Strive. It's probably gonna be pretty miserable for online, but it ain't me playing unless I have at least 3 characters I cycle in a fighter.
I remember a while back I was playing SF2 with a friend of mine who doesn’t usually play fighting games but he likes SF2 on SNES so we played it on fightcade and mashed buttons. I did the classic combo of jumping heavy kick into sweep into fireball meaty. He was really confused and asked why I didn’t do some super heavy combo he saw online and when I explained to him that doing those combos does not really matter, he didn’t believe me because isn’t the point of fighting games to make that combo counter go high with hard combos? It was an interesting perspective to hear.
i think this will probably end up being a "to taste" kind of thing i imagine there may very well end up being some stupid hard combo that requires it in order to land when this game inevitably gets optimized to hell and back but i think it will be fine as long as it's not made to be necessary as part of the core of the character if that makes sense to people just a little bit more gravy. enough to clutch a round in niche situations and a way to flex on people without becoming a necessary core hurdle in the character's learning curve
I picked up Urien because Nemo's Aegis combos were so sick, and I couldn't do more than 2 basic ones-one of them to switch sides. I still love the character and would play him if my internet wasn't trash. Just play the character you like or feels right and don't worry about being optimal, just work on improving in any way. For me, I still have trouble keeping track of my opponent's meter and the options they have from it, so it doesn't really matter if I can't be optimal.
So glad for this nuanced take. No game is for everybody, and there's plenty of space for games with high execution stuff and games with one button everything (Shout outs to Phantom Breaker 🖤). Personally I prefer games that have some amount of execution baked into the strategy overall like Blazblue/AH3/GG/Marvel/Skullgirls/etc. I also accept that even a quarter circle motion is a barrier for entry for newbies, so am very grateful for games where you *can* get into the strategy on day one without having to learn a bunch of arbitrary motion inputs (again, shout outs to Phantom Breaker, go play it with your non-FG friends).
I always like it when characters have an execution curve where you have easy basic bnbs but have harder stuff you can learn to be more optimal. Like tsubaki in bbcf has some tricky optimal stuff with her dp followup whiffs and staircase combos in the corner but I don't *need* to know any of that.
Serendipitous that this video came out today. I haven't been enjoying success nearly as much as season two, because I didn't like the pot changes. I feel like it took away his lower skill options and added high skill options. This video gives some context. When I pointed that out imagine my surprise when people actually read it, and I got roasted by chat feat hotashi (rightfully so, though I think it was all in good humor). Anyway your videos are very well timed
I look at it like this adding this will definitely make the mirror matches we always see with him be more interesting and more hype instead of the long drawn out match
I didn't watch the video. Instead, I'd like to share what I think about fighting games and why I don't like them as someone who doesn't play them. First, I've got a full-size job and I can't be arsed to do a fireball motion. Second, my cousin won't stop using that one move. Ergo, fighting games suck. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
It's best for the genre if there's different games that each emphasize an element of fighting games mastery, so people have a game that really lets them dive into what they like. Kyanta is most known for being wacky but I really enjoy it for what it chooses to demand of players. This is probably trying to capture the dynamic of the difficult timing combos Guile has in 5, but having you just get a less good combo instead of no boom at all coming out mid combo and you get wrecked
When sajam talks about those things that people rage about, i love the way he explains them. But im not sure if those people ever change their mind because of what he explains, maybe if they calm down after staying away from fighting games for a while, but generally people that start an argument because they cant stand the feeling of frustration and not accept and just sit with it, dont respond to logical arguments positively and simply refuse to believe them. It clearly makes sajam more likeable to people that already are in the mindset of fair competition which is a good thing, but i hope he doesnt invest himself to much to a point that he gets exhausted by doing these talks.
I just watched a video in which Diaphone said he doesn't do I-No's optimal corner combo cause he drops it too much. I can do it consistently but he's still MUCH better at the game than me...execution by itself is not going to make you win.
The funny detail for Kazunoko, in Strive he plays Jack'O and actually developped a bunch of the unique tech for her lol It's pretty out of character for him imo.
It really feels like people who fighting games aren't necessarily for complaining about fighting games not being for them. Similar to the point made in the day9 video you showed on screen, a big part of the reason the people who play these games play them is because there's some sort of execution requirement. At the end of the day these are games and the fgc generally has fun playing games where they need to practice combos and other techniques and want to use them in a competitive environment.
definitely one of your better videos on this subject im one of those people who is concerned about execution. but as you brilliantly point out, you can incorporate your execution level into your strategy and work around it for awhile i was trying to learn seth in sf5 because i thought they were cool as hell. but i couldnt do half the shit you needed to do in order to get the most out of the character. in frustration, i tried other characters before settling on flowchart sagat. throw fireballs because those are within my execution range, poke/dp when they get close, and spent all my exeuction focus on learning combos that were relevant to the ranges i liked to play. i enjoyed a lot more success and, more importantly, i had a lot more fun because my brain wasnt raging out at me for dropping another fucking combo i barely understand on seth i carried this mindset over to strive where i *wanted* to play millia, tried her for a bit, then said fuck this and moved on with my life and im much happier with where im at now (testament)
But Millia is a pretty easy character to play? The only things that are particularly difficult to do is mirazh cancel septem and now the kapel air to ground combos. And even that isn't that hard.
@@blyat8832 cant say i found seth all that "easy" if you want to imply im some kind of idiot then sure we can go with that pointlessly cruel assessment why not
@@KTSamurai1 I never said you were an idiot lmao. I was actually asking what you were struggling with so I could give advice since I also main the character but you know, fragile egos will always assume shit so nevermind, keep struggling
Just seeing this now that the game has come out and at first i thought it would be if you hit the perfecr charge time it would buff the move but its just from hitting forwards and punch at the same time which is so incredibly easy you should hit perfect every single time basically. I do find it kinda weird they would add this in in this way when as far as i know there are no other moves in the game that only require pressing the buttons together to get a buffed version.
I'm personally not good at combos and I've been playing ASW games since GGX. It's just not something I'm good at. I instead leaned into learning neutral and learning parries (I played Hakumen in BlazBlue). This means that I can control the pacing, but I don't capitalize as much on opportunities. But I can still hold my own in matches. I just learned to play to my strengths.
Assuming that this is throwing out a perfectly charged sonic boom, to me this seems to be just doubling down on the strategy that already exists in executing charge moves - there's an extra incentive now for not continuing to hold back and wait for the best time to throw your projectile because the boom is better... but also, y'know, throwing out perfect booms all the time is gonna be pretty predictable.
I think what I struggle with in this topic is that I am bad at execution so playing games like KOF or Street Fighter is frustrating. To me they are execution heavy. I can barely even do the simplest of combos so I feel like I can't even get in the gate. Someone can 3 touch me to death and I gotta 12 touch them. So it becomes frustrating when I struggle to do simple things.
some people struggle to learn more than others, so solutions for this 𝘥𝘰 exist! 👍 do you feel your struggle to execute is too much to _ever_ play❓ if not, you can *emphasize* whatever parts of your character you find most ~convenient~, or even try other characters for a temporary boost 🚀
@@yourbellboy i still play a lot of fighting games. The last one i enjoyed was GG Strive. I think my biggest issue with combos and string execution is timing and rhythm as i no sense for either xD
The part where he said theres people who are complaining about simple controls, but then theres people who complain about execution like just inputs: its literally the internet. People always have to bitch
The FGC is evolving, now they scrubquote games that are not even out yet
That's been happening forever unfortunately
Pre-order scrubquotes NOW, before the game is released!!!
😎 👉👉
People have thrown a fit over every aspect of this game so far tbh. Simple inputs, costumes, perfect timing.
@@TheNobleFive and the graphics. People want that golden standard to be met you know 🙂
And that golden standard would be DNF Duel, GG Strive, anything from recent ArcSys games.
@Lucas Wibisono unfortunately SF hasn't looked good since SF3 because of the change to full 3D, and they can't really go back to 2D at this point anymore. I know ArcSys does 3D as well but you can't tell unless camera changes to some certain angles like on counter hits.
Great example of this: Marn in UMVC3 couldn't do Zero's lightning loops consistently if he was P2 side, so instead he would work on mixups for P2 corner and loops for P1 corner. Play to your strengths but be aware of, and cover your weaknesses.
Opposite for me here as example, I like heavy execution combos but I'm way better at them as a P2 than P1.
So what do you do if you feel like you suck at everything and cannot improve at all?
You take breaks and try not to beat yourself up. I used to have a terrible mentality but I was able to work on it after years. For example I thought 623 moves were 9731 inputs when I first played SF4, I also thought you had to jump and then do a motion to do tk moves until I learned Baiken in Xrd and learned 2369. Focus on the little things and try not to look at your day-to-day, "if you take a step a day eventually you'll have walked miles" and all that
one button special moves = OMG THIS GAME IS FOR KIDS AND CASUALS
perfect timing specific combos = OMG THIS IS GONNA GATEKEEP
None of em play fighting games
And SF6 has both lol
Haha accurate. At this rate I don’t know what the FGC wants. They asked no more comeback mechanics like V-trigger. But when Capcom added Just Frame move that requires more skill, the FGC also got angry. So what actually the FGC wants??? 🤦♂️
imo there's different people complaining about different things at different times
or at least thats how i view such contradictions
@@spidericktehdarkandstuff7417 100% it's almost like large groups of people consist of individuals that can have different opinions and desires from one another.
The three-pointer line is an arbitrary execution check that most players can't consistently pull off while also being basically a requirement to play. Why ever go for layups that only give two points when you can make a basket that always gives three? It gets in the way of the strategy of basketball and gatekeeps everyone who's not a pro, get rid of it.
Dunking is an execution barrier made to gatekeep people who are short and unathletic smh
@@tingispingis How the hell am I supposed to get a layup when there's, like, 3 people blocking the goal? Execution barrier! Judge!
basketball is sucha shitty game, why do i have to dribble the ball? its a completely meaningless and artificial execution requirement
yeah i was talking about this recently cos i had someone criticise my game as i don't do KBMF loops or really anything complex with potemkin as i mostly go for knockdowns, mix and space control, like, i know i drop long combos and I'm not great with timing so i focus on what I am good at, guessing what my opponent is gonna do next. it's good to hear that i'm going about this the right way
Pot as a character has a really strong "simple" game. KBMF loops are *good* , they do good damage, and KBMF is scary, but a Pot that just walks you down, does slidehead reading your attack consistently, hammerfall breaks in after, and knows how to do both Garuda pressure and get c.S/Pot buster 50/50s is scary *and* effective. Really strong character for keeping it simple and relying on reads and good pressure.
I'm a grappler player and I'm bad at 720 so I did the same thing and focused on knockdowns and fear mongering before 720s and I'm still bad at them but I can do it sometimes lol
@@deBILLitation Fear mongering is the funniest accurate description of the grappler blender I've ever seen
@@deBILLitation honestly if you can do a move once and land it you dont even have to use it again because the fear will be in your opponents head that you might use it
One of the biggest mistakes new players make is overemphasizing execution. In reality you'll get further faster if you keep it simple at the start and learn the actual meat of the game. The executions will be easier if the game around it is more familiar to you before you stress learning them. Every new character I pick up I tend to learn 3 basic conversions for likely scenarios. Usually a light confirm, a simple heavy confirm, and an AA confirm if it applies. If you start off worrying about your big combos you'll find the situations they come up in rarer and when they do come up you'll often miss them due to having too much thought economy involved in the situation itself.
THIS.
I hear this so often from people who don't play FGs on why they dont want to touch them. They think it's this hyper-precise game of doing frame-perfect link into frame-perfect link.
I'm learning Milia in GGST and struggling to realize what to do when I get hits, because she's so incredibly fast-paced. Blockstring or conversion? Just enough distance to hit with j.HS and then what? ((microdash) 2K 2D 236HS but I just learnt that)
on and on, real fast gameplay, having to abuse the air, realizing my spacing in practice... I don't know if this is something that must be muscle memoried to lower thought economy or if I'm supposed to actually increase my execution to play Milia at a default level.
@@angelsoflolz when you are first starting out, you should simply learn what your buttons do and what they can go into. A few basic conversions are fine but dont get obsessed with having an answer for every situation. From there just play, and get a feel for the game. What you want not occupying to much of your mental economy is yourself in a neutral state. You should be able to move and position at your ranges without to much thought because your focus should be on your opponent and what they are doing. Once you get in the habit of this, understanding the entire situation becomes easier and you'll be more prepared for when combo opportunities arise. Theres no point in knowing a big optimal combo off of uncommon situations before you understand when and why they would come up. As an example, when I learned G in SF, I started by learning his very common very accessible conversion of dash straight dash low wheel kick at pres level 2. Mostly because like I said, the opportunities come up very often. From there I learned mostly used it off his st lk. Its a great whiff punish button, it combos out of his st lp and st mp and level 1 wheel kick, so I've covered two very common buttons for punishes. Even better, pre pres level 2, he can still light dash straight or low for a knockdown. By sticking to this simple plan, I can get used to these situations as they come up, and over time they become natural, so I can start adding on more or trying new things. Over time I learned that CH st mp combos into cr HP which combos into lvl 1 wheel kick, which leads to a situation I'm completely used too, st lk confirm.
Basically, start with a small reliable plan and as it becomes overly familiar along with the gameplay itself, you'll have the available focus to branch out and experiment.
However if you go in with a big plan before you know anything consistently, you'll find yourself hesitating looking for several answers to several variable situations and finding little success converting those situations. Be patient, take it slow, and try to remember that growth takes time.
thought economy is a really good term for it. I got pretty far for a beginner (floor 7 ish) as potemkin in strive without ever doing a command grab because I had some decent damaging confirms, pokes, and anti-airs. now that I can execute pot buster and kara's easier, I still feel like I'm growing as a player at floor 8/9
Your right. I play gg strive and i main ky but I been wanting to switch and try out other characters like testament or zato but I always look at their entire kit and feel like I NEED to master everything to be effective and I get overwhelmed by all the combos too but i just need to make it simple and take it step by step
It's amazing how much people complained about this when there will definitely be people who will main guile, never rely on perfect booms and get ranks higher than 99% of the ones complaining ever will get
jwong doesnt kara throw on chun li which is one of the core parts of her offense, but hes one of the greatest ever
I'm pretty sure those people that complain know they are bad and believe that saying what they think elite would say makes them somehow better.
Turns out perfect parry is damn easy and people were getting it by accident half the time.
Nice, rank gating opinions! Bro, grow up and get off the playground
@@no_nameyouknowperfect parry is not easy, as far as I know it's a 2 frame window. Which is a 5th of what 3rd strike's is. It's just not super risky to go for since if you mistime it you get regular parry which is essentially blocking without taking chip.
As a newbie to fighting games, it's interesting to have gone from "this game requires to much execution" to "this isn't actually that hard". It took me setting aside ego and realizing I needed to actually learn. And as I've played more against better players I've found some players just knowledge check me. See if I knew the answer to what they were doing. That, I think, is when I found out I really enjoyed improving. Because it didn't feel like they were doing some cheap tactic, they basically just asked "can you answer this, yes or no"
yooooooo, love this mindset 👍
A scenario that happens a lot in fighting games is when your opponent is almost dead and you land a hit. You have a moment to decide what combo you’re going to do. You have to rely on your execution to not drop the harder combo or you have to go for the weaker combo and then rely on your fundamentals to land one more hit. Execution is a good thing
And you have to have the presence of mind under pressure to not just mess up the easy one too because you overthought it. You have that split second to decide what combo to do, and just having to make the snap decision in the pressure can throw you off. The decision-making AND execution are both clutch as a result.
The type of stuff people say about the FGC is EXACTLY the same as what people say about competitive Yu-gi-oh.
"They just all play the broken cards."
"Everyone's deck is exactly the same."
"I don't want to sit through a 10 minute unbeatable combo."
And, of course, "I miss the old game. It was good back then." (It was not)
Everyone needs to learn eventually no one actually knows what they're talking about.
I ain't gonna lie, the third YGO quote/point you brought up is something I still embarrassingly hold to be true to myself very ignorantly to this day. But it's very stupid of me to do so cause I don't bother to genuinely engage with good counter arguments to my complaint.
I think, if I had to guess why I do that, hearing all the counter explanations that disprove my complaint just "feels" overwhelming to hear. Like, I come off "feeling"(key word) assuming I have to front load myself with encyclopedia levels understandings of YGO to "play properly" if Im looking to even want to start at all. Thus making me think "man, I just wanna play this card game so I can do cool shit myself too with these badass looking monsters. Not feel like I have to learn a Master's level college course before I can feel ready to play at any capacity" Its even more ridiculous for me to have this thought because I'm the one over here trying to dispell any similar sounding discouragements/negative stigmas new people have trouble with when first approaching the fighting game genre lol
But like Sajam has said before, you don't need to learn everything at the start. Just pick up the basics and focus on a couple of basic strats that works for you and go from there. Then just keep striving to improve and pick up on the other stuff you were too unconfident to engage with previously. Maybe it'll finally make sense, maybe it won't, but you don't have to HAVE to learn everything to be a real good player.
Someday I'll finally hunker down and give a good swing at YGO...Someday...lol
@@shman5000o Very few decks ACTUALLY have combos that long, thoigh it can feel like it as a new player. Seeing your opponent use over 20 cards you've never read can be overwhelming, and especially demoralizing when you realize you went into the game unprepared and your deck has no way to win in the first place.
It's definitely the argument with the most validity, but most of the time it's a bit exaggerated.
Those statements are just exaggerated problems of card games in general but I think yugioh easily has it the worst which is why it gets the most shit from the community
To be fair, I definitely ran into 10 minute turns when I played Master Duel. As someone who was new to the game, it was not fun and definitely unbeatable for me.
@@Boyzby Yeah, I won't say it can't happen, it definitely does. Especially in Master Duel since things run a bit slower than in IRL play. It's mostly just a part of the game you have to learn to deal with. It's like playing 3rd Strike and complaining about Urien doing unnlockable, it's just a part of the game.
I can't believe something as simple as "do thing with better timing to get better rewards" is what sets this off. It's not even something unique to fighting games!
Yeah, it’s kind of like a Gears of War perfect reload.
Fr like the perfect reload in gears of war. Yes you can do the regular reload, but you can also do a slightly harder reload to reload faster and do more damage? It's been a while since I played so all I remember is you just reload faster
There's a timing based attachment in apex legends lmao
@@IfWhatYes really? What attachment is it?
@@lucaswibisono1316 for the longbow I think. Never use it but I remember seeing it
As someone on the newer end of fighting games, I'm confused by people getting so mad about this. This is the kind of execution gating I would much rather see rather see. Sonic boom is still there, you can still use that, and I highly doubt it's going to stop being part of the core of the character. Are the perfect booms better? Yes, but I highly doubt you are going to be locked out of the character by not being able to do it. Plus there's the simple inputs mode for beginners. So far I'm liking the approach to execution I'm seeing in SF6, let the execution floor be lower, while giving improvements for reaching the execution ceiling.
This is one thing I didn't like about alot of modern fgs like type lumina. An ideal fg is one where you have approachable systems like a good tutorial, good training mode, good offline content like what blazblue had. Taking away depth from an fg doesn't make it more approachable in a meaningful way, it hurts the people that care for that depth for the benefit of someone that wouldn't give the game the time of day anyway, while simultaneously not launching with things that would interest a non fg player
And from what we saw, in some situations the "not perfect" boom might be more interesting if it's slower.
"Why should you be rewarded with more damage for practicing?"
-current FGC
Merit? Pfft, this is USSA bay-BEE!
"The reason that fighting games are _fun_ is that they are *fast* and they test *so* many aspects of you as a person at the same time..." 9:05
"...and you're not gonna be maxed out at all of them, right? You will have to _pick & choose_ which things you will try to improve at and some things you will naturally be *worse* then others at" 9:24
Evo-winning 🏆 quotes right here.
I'm so glad you referenced that Day9 video. So much of it is relevant to learning fighting games, or really any complex competitive game. Similarly, when Day9 was on the Tasteless podcast, they discussed how execution requirements affect how strategies develop in Brood War, and use these same ideas to draw parallels about people's misconceptions about both RTS and fighting games. I'll never not be enthralled by Day9 talking about game design. Highly recommend the podcast.
Day 9 is a treasure. I also used to make that point a lot to my buddy who plays tons of RTS when he decided to try Skullgirls.
Gamers see an announcement and not complain challenge impossible
"Our" voices needs to be heard you know?
I couldn't do SF4 Fuerte loops to save my life. And that's why I never played Fuerte or C Viper super seriously. I gravitated more towards other characters like Juri and Ryu.
That's the important part to me: execution barriers need to vary greatly between characters and not be a universal systemic thing.
Extremely high execution is something that's important to have but only sprinkled here and there. There's no denying that it adds a lot of hype when you see someone pulling off a hard combo. It just shouldn't be a barrier that every character has.
Why not though? Every character having a natural progression into more demanding execution is part of what makes delving into characters interesting. It's fine to have characters that are less demanding, obviously, but every character should have more complex goals at some point imo. It's what lets you show that you've mastered your character.
@@felixc.4294 You CAN have a game with universal mechanics that require god execution. Like let's say every character has stance cancels, run cancels, instant air fireball/dive kicks, 1 frame links and just frame Electrics that do 200% more juggle damage.
That game could exist but it would be pretty niche. Something that a few korean and pakistani nerds dominate while everyone else sucks at it. :)
@@felixc.4294 The thing is we are not talking about characters that just get access to more stuff with higher execution that adds to their base gameplan and overall fun factor.
El Fuerte, C.Viper and some other characters like Ibuki are characters that if you can't do their more execution heavy stuff you really can't play them at a base level and are half way wasting your time. Ibuki needs to land her links so she can get the proper knock down off every hit because outside set play she is kind of bad.
What you are talking about is a character like Xrd Sol where you can run his base gameplan with relatively low execution and that higher just adds on additional options and rewards. Even then he has a lot of alternate routing. Like yeah you could do dust loops but if you can't or do want to risk dropping the combo and losing out on that sweet oki he has a lot of less damaging but still rewarding corner routes that allows him to take advantage of his corner game.
Ok it sounded like I was talking shit about Tekken but I'm not really. The only universal mechanic that requires good execution is korean backdash.
But even Tekken has good execution variety: Mishimas and stance characters are the most difficult to play. Law and Jack are pretty easy by comparison. They even have Katarina for beginners since she can just spam kicks over and over.
Would Tekken be better without korean backdash? My opinion is yes because it would be 100x more accessible and fun. But I'm sure Tekken pros want it to stay because they mastered it.
@@vulcanh254 but that's what makes the movement of tekken fun and unique
You'd think with all the practice they get parrying advice, their defense would be better.
spicy 😝
"Guess Their Rank/Bracket" would be a dope spinoff of "Will it Kill"
True, might be hard to find their actual rank tho
Diaphone already started doing that show lol check it out some time
For some reason people think that the character will just be denied to them if they can't do a perfect boom
The funny thing is that it'll probably be something along the lines of "it takes 80 frames to charge a boom, so if you release at frames 78 to 82 you'll get the perfect boom", something that just requires a bit of practice
no its looking like its just pressing forward + punch on the same frame like Dan's VT2 in SFV
@@MokoES Then it's even more just requires a bit of practice-er
Thanks for this reminder. I've been visiting some older titles (mostly BBCF and +R) because the player experience in modern fgs gets on my nerves sometimes with the towers in strive and the waiting in KOF, but I was discouraged to keep playing because I had lost my ability to do some of the execution heavy stuff. Gotta remind myself that it's ok to build up to it and that it is possible to form game plans around sub optimal combos.
The grind continues.
Man I play Ash and I don't even can do the whole install combo, I simply enjoy what I can from the character and do the combos I can perform for sure, cheers
Idk about bbcf but with +R one really frustrating thing is that, despite the quick match system being godlike, most people who use it are pretty good at the game and it's hard to find someone your skill level
I suggest joining the +R discord server for that if you feel like it, makes it easier to match with new players
A key thing for people to keep in mind, as far as we know they didn't make guile harder at all, the same level of execution as before can get you the same success, they just added a thing for people who gave blood sacrifices to Heihachi for electrics. They didn't gate something that already existed behind that execution, you'll be the same Guile as before if you can't do perfect booms.
Yes and no. If they get a character that's still balanced the same way as they were in comparison to the rest of the cast, and add a new tool that is very good, even if hard, it *could* be too strong, so they might just have made the rest of the kit's worse without the boom (relative to the cast). This may or may not be a big deal for his playstyle, we will not know until the game actually comes out, if the perfect boom is gonna be core to his new SF6 self, or if it kinda won't matter. Despite this though, even if it *is* core to his new gameplan, it's not like having some characters demand less or more execution is *bad* , if someone really wants to play Guile, I doubt it'll take them that long to learn this extra technique, and if they don't want to learn it, there's still the rest of the cast. It might be a big deal or it might not be to playing Guile, but I don't see it as a *bad* thing either ways.
It's not the same because every time you use a imperfect Sonic Boom is a reminder that your execution is not good enough for SF6 Guile. It would be easy to ignore if it was only used as part of a hard combo that doesn't happen often but Guile players need to throw a hundred Sonic Booms a round.
@@kevl0rneswath Except the game hasn't come out and no one really knows if throwing a regular boom instead of a perfect boom in neutral is gonna be a big deal or not, isn't it? And besides, even if it is a key aspect to Guile's toolset, which it might be, it may not really be that hard at all it's likely that this is going to be at *most* as hard as doing idk, TK note with I-No in Strive, which takes 15 mins of practice, and even if it is, Guile is in fact, not the only character in SF6 and not the easiest one either most likely, if you don't enjoy part of a character's core gameplay or execution in a game then well... Pick someone you do. I feel like a lot of people tend to either deify or condemn execution requirements in fighting games when in reality it isn't a big deal, and it's certainly not a *bigger* deal than spray patterns and quick one tap mechanical aim in games like Valorant or CS:GO.
@@AgentBacalhau If you have to tell people to pick another character because of execution, then the execution is gatekeeping, isn't it? If would actually be a lot less of a difference if it was Flash Kick that had a perfect version cause then it's a lot less necessary to learn but Sonic Boom is way too core to Guile's gameplay.
@@kevl0rneswath No, it's not gatekeeping, it's just saying "if you don't *want* to learn this skill, go do something you *want* to do, whatever that might be, in the game". By that argument telling someone to use the Phantom if they don't enjoy/wanna learn to control the Vandal's recoil, since it's basically just as good, but different, in Valorant would be gatekeeping. Telling someone they could pick Jett if they don't want to learn Raze movement in Valorant would be gatekeeping. Telling someone to pick Demoman if they don't want to learn Soldier movement in TF2 would be too. I'm not saying you're not *allowed* to play Guile, just that if you don't enjoy one of the skills he is going to require you're better off playing someone that doesn't require that skill. Everyone is allowed to play him just the same. It's just that some people will enjoy the skill requirement and some won't, and that's fine, there's a whole cast of characters cause you can't make every character meant for everyone. If you make everyone require little execution you'll alienate technical players, and if you make everyone require loads of it, you'll alienate people who don't enjoy execution requirements, as such, you make a varied cast.
One of my favorite things is learning something executionally that give a character entirely new options, doing Kara inputs as potemkin really opens him up and makes him much scarier at more ranges, it sucks for people who can’t do it or just don’t know because I think it makes pot a significantly better character but boy is Kara buster, or Kara Garuda or Kara back megafist satisfying to do once you get it down
The secret here is: the game needs to teach this to players that want to get better and do cool stuff, something that GGST do well with Mission and Combo Maker modes.
They do teach you how to do Kara buster though.
On the other end, I can't do kbmf without getting pot buster 90% of the time, but that hasn't really impacted me at all in my Potemkin play
The two sonic booms travel at different speeds, so they have different uses. The slower boom, for example, you may want to use for oki and setups. The faster one you can use for combos and footsies.
Plus, the ex boom is probably as fast as the perfect one judging by how they made Ryu and Chun's ex's.
There's also different speeds with the different strengths if it's anything like any other sf game. So even if the perfect one is the fastest it might not be that big of a deal
I've got to say, as someone with a very casual interest in FG's, who only plays occasionally, your channel is a huge encouragement and inspiration, especially about the parts in here regarding strategizing around your own execution ability. I've been scared off of large combos due to an extreme lack of robot devil hands, and have gravitated towards characters that don't really centralize combos as a result. This video just feels good to hear and watch, and is probably going to hang around in my head as I keep trying to play (at least a little) better on my own terms.
This is my favorite video that you've put out because I haven't been able to properly articulate to my friends why motion inputs aren't an arbitrary addition to the game.
I play Potemkin. I can't hit confirm, I can't reversal, my best combos are f.S>5H or 2D>FMF, I can't do Pot Buster, I only use meter for yrc and mirror super. I got to floor 10. Thinking that you HAD to do hard execution was what kept me out of fighting games for so long. Sajam's hype for Strive is what got me started.
"This guy did the sick BnB but can't do a meaty."
I feel called out ;;
In essence:
We are RPG characters. We expect ourselves to be at max stats and be the best in every possible aspect but in reality, everyone has their own stats that they excel in and others that they dont. If we put ourselves in situations where we can play to our strengths, we will win more rather than when we constantly worry about our weaknesses
Sajam has a 10-0 matchup against that one strand of hair
I still remember the day my friend laughed at me for buying Geese Howard in Tekken 7. Then I poked him all game with basic buttons and won. Godlike execution doesn't mean anything if you win neutral over and over.
Sajam this video made me cry for a completely unrelated reason but it's a beautiful moment in my life as a man and a fighting game player, ty
"Robot devil hands" almost made me spit out my drink
"lot of people got into fighting games or get into fighting games because of that right they like see something that's hard or something that's cool and they're like yeah i want to try that"
What can I say, Big Band playing Guile's theme is hype
facts. 👏
The only reason I still have Skullgirls installed is because I want to figure out if Big Band can play the Final Fantasy victory fanfare.
Sajam hair Vs Sajam is 2:8 matchup
The executional quirks are a unique part of the genre that give it flavor, and removing it is stripping out a key aspect of these games. I find leveling up my execution to be pretty fun, especially since I put money into an arcade stick and the tactical feedback I get from using it to do fighting game execution is great and fun.
Also, if you drop the p-boom, you dont get too punished, you just get a regular boom, which still combos but is less rewarding. a really nice way to increase the ceiling, but not bring up the floor.
its very funny looking back on this. Guile's Perfect Boom turned out to be such a nothing of a mechanic. It's basically every once in a while you will hear Guile say 'Sonic Boom' instead of 'PERFECT!' Honestly which they would just get rid of Perfect booms and just make all of them perfect so Guile can actually say the name of his special move again.
7:26 something to keep in mind is that maybe someone at a lower level actually has really good timing and they can get the rhythm down on his 'perfect booms' easily, but is kind of bad at everything else. This can technically reward you for being good at a specific thing that might not be common
Great vid. Succintly boiled down the point I think many of us in the fighting game community have been trying to make for years.
So many non-fighting game fans saying fighting games would be better without, excution barriers and all we hear is 'this neopoltan ice cream would be better if there wasn't chocolate'.
Subbed and as soon as SF6 comes out I'll ring the bell.
Ohh shit that Day[9] video is a banger and a half. I was trying to find that again for the longest time, thanks for bringing it up!
This is like, exactly why I stopped playing Karin in SFV. I couldn't reliably do her just-frames. It was frustrating me that I couldn't "play her right" and I decided that I should play someone else. But looking back now, I think I could have stuck with her. My neutral was fine and my pressure was solid. But since I didn't get the perfect combos I ran to Alex. I don't regret a thing.
ALSO let's be real. Everyone's raising a stink about Guile's perfect Booms but nobody's batting an eye at what perfect Luke combos are going to look like. They're gonna be tough with those small frame-windows to hold his punch specials for.
@@Kenzamaka Well the difference is no one likes Luke
@@Kenzamaka that is probably gonna be harder tbh
@@gwen4557 and gets angry when Luke players doing it.
I swear these discussions are some of my favorite UA-cam videos to watch ever, because its just like you said these things apply to every game, people often just immediately put down fighting games for the aspects every other game also has.
Plus the perspective too! I play a lot of genres, there was a time I played Sajam randomly in runeterra and tweeted at him about it. There’s so much overlap, fighting games and card games are similar too- but I think you’d have to get engaged at a decent level of both to begin to understand
As a FGC newb, as in playing BBCF for six months, having shit I can’t do is also kinda enticing because I can’t do it NOW, but if I work on it, I can do it EVENTUALLY. There is always something to work on, and something new the game can offer you.
In chess they talk about opening preparation, memorising the moves your opponent may make and their optimal responses. Seems very similar to hitting the lab in a fighting game!
Holy shit, Sajam you cant just drop a surprise Day9 reference in the middle of your video, I was determined to be grumpy today and now that's impossible.
First the VS face changes from SC, now the Just moves from SC.
Feels good
As a tekken player I really like this change. Not because I play Heihachi or anything, but because it gives other people something to strive for, improving their execution and the decision making that comes with it
I feel like at its core, people just want things to be easy for them and hard for their opponents. That's why people keep complaining about execution barriers instead of switching to, say, board games with zero execution (especially when they lack the randomness) - because you only have yourself to blame there. But hey, having a scapegoat like dropped inputs or the luck of the draw is not a bad thing either: it means you can keep playing without feeling like an utter failure until you maybe get better at it.
i wanna play Zato but i don’t have the execution to play Zato so i don’t play Zato
it’s so simple, it’s wild people are upset over this…
It does suck if youre only interested in one character though.
Thankfully sf6 has normal booms and sweaty booms so you can still play guile
Play Zato anyways. He's fun as hell.
@@Lilybun yeah but trying other characters doesn’t hurt anyway! might fall in love with another character along the way
@@efronlicht1043 i’m celestial so i feel like a fake Zato wouldn’t get me far 😪 i enjoy toying around with him in training mode though maybe i’ll be more confident and try him online
@@icwatch That's definitely a good attitude to have, I think I'm just unreasonably picky when it comes to character visual design lol
"They have the robot devil hands" lmao! The first thing that came to my mind was futurama when you said that.
I assumed that was the reference. If not what IS he referencing 🤔
Yea man I can't imagine it being anything else.
Kings grapples was what got me as far as hard combos go, it was the first thing as a fighting game that I said "I want to do this" and took the time to learn it.
Simultaneous freak-outs over both adding and removing execution requirements to a game is a perfect example of why you can't make things for "the crowd," and why obsessing over mass appeal is quixotic. There is no monolithic "crowd," that idea is made up. The best anyone can do is to make something cool, and trust that the people who are going to like it will find it.
Ah, yes. The classic. People with no figthing game skills, thinking that they are losing because combos are hard.
nah, its cuz their character is low tier
People over here acting like perfectly executed sonic booms are the only thing holding them back from being EVO champions or something.
You're never playing a game where you're getting hit by 40 one frame links in one combo. Unless it's HnK, in which case you have bigger problems.
I play Mishimas. I live for this try hard execution shit. Fuck reliable bnb's, I'm gonna try to squeeze in an electric anywhere I can.
Shaq couldn't shoot free throws, but he was still one of the best basketball players of all time.
I like that execution barriers could allow you to find creative solutions to things you otherwise wouldn't. I think it's something that can add significant things to your identity as a player. Kinda like Naruto using a shadow clone to do rasengan.
On the flip side of developing OSes on defense it's kinda like how LK said he builds strings to target things automatically and inspired me to do the same.
Good video!
Fighting games are a mixture of both. If you only want the strategy you'll play chess, if you only want the execution you'll do speedrunning
I do like how you call this stuff out.
I would say choosing your combos based off your own understanding of your execution is a big part of strategy
7:39 not saying it's a waste (though it might be) but at this point, rather than trying to rationalize with people who dunk on fighting game execution without thought, we just break it down using metaphors of things they're confident in and hold their egos accountable, like the lineup example with valo or:
> can you type fast?
(some pretentious answer about 200+ wpm)
> can you type "dsad", "dsd", "dsawdsawdsawd"
> that's literally the motion for a command grab, dp, and gl's 1080 churn
i'm not even sure why people are mad at guile's perfect booms, the idea behind internalizing how long 0.75 second is or tap two buttons at the same time are things that gaming as an entire industry have made use of for the longest time. there are way more egregious cases of "execution barriers" but this aint one of them.
As a person who (for some unexplained reason) ends up playing decently high-execution characters while not having good execution (ex. SFV Zeku, +R Johnny and Venom) I don’t think this will really be a massive problem. You don’t need high execution to play these characters against people of your skill level, after all, they’re probably in the same boat you are.
Execution is probably where I'm weakest. so I spend a ton of time labbing combos and practicing tech. I strait pop off when I land the thing I've been trying to learn. I hope Guile isn't the only character with tech like this. I love learning advanced stuff with characters. Its like an irl level up.
Sajam almost always has the best takes. There are tons of people who downplay how hard tight timings are. It's super toxic and sucks. It seems like Sajams stance is 'they are hard and that is okay; it's part of the design space.'
I feel that many people have a hard time abstracting fighting games like you do to compare them to shooting games. Maybe just subconciously, people see a man on screen in their fighting game and think of him like a man on screen in their shooter game. To them, every button in the fighting game is "shoot that guy" and when the game makes it harder to "shoot that guy" through means like a perfect sonic boom, or a PEWGF, they get frusturated that they're not just able to shoot a guy with every gun they have
you might be onto something. 🤔
'dunno if it's ego or misunderstanding or something but many people do seem to share this struggle.
The funny part is that I see this, hear that it might be something you get from like perfectly timed SBs and as someone that is a lousy combo-peddler, I think I could take a crack at this and have fun. One of the things that tends to not get discussed when talking about combo plays is that execution can be difficult for multiple reasons and you can be better or worse at different kinds of combos. Sometimes a combo can be difficult, because it requires really precise positioning through cancels and specific jumps. Sometimes a combo can be hard, because it's a long string that only really pays off really deep into it. Sometimes a combo can be difficult, because there's a really tight link you gotta hit to confirm properly. Sometimes it's a combination of any one of these.
What it looks like this combo does looks like something I could get good at, even though my execution isn't that good. I get really jittery with long strings and tend to throw something in there that messes the whole thing up due to impulse. When I look for characters in a fighter, I'm looking for dudes that can get good damage off of fewer buttons. I see alot of the crazy combos other Sin players in Xrd can do, but as long as 5h/6s - Elk - Driver works, I'm gonna keep using it, because it's simple, does good amounts and puts me in a controlling position of the space, even if you reset to neutral. While I can imagine this perfect Sonic Boom is probably frame-perfect or close to, the combo itself is only like 4 inputs. Sure, there's a charge in there, but there isn't as much room for me to mess up in that combo. It's the long strings that get me messed up, I can deal with doing precise timing. I'm pretty good at nailing just-guards in Strive. It's probably gonna be pretty miserable for online, but it ain't me playing unless I have at least 3 characters I cycle in a fighter.
I remember a while back I was playing SF2 with a friend of mine who doesn’t usually play fighting games but he likes SF2 on SNES so we played it on fightcade and mashed buttons. I did the classic combo of jumping heavy kick into sweep into fireball meaty. He was really confused and asked why I didn’t do some super heavy combo he saw online and when I explained to him that doing those combos does not really matter, he didn’t believe me because isn’t the point of fighting games to make that combo counter go high with hard combos? It was an interesting perspective to hear.
i think this will probably end up being a "to taste" kind of thing
i imagine there may very well end up being some stupid hard combo that requires it in order to land when this game inevitably gets optimized to hell and back
but i think it will be fine as long as it's not made to be necessary as part of the core of the character if that makes sense to people
just a little bit more gravy. enough to clutch a round in niche situations and a way to flex on people without becoming a necessary core hurdle in the character's learning curve
No move is more core to Guile than Sonic Boom.
I picked up Urien because Nemo's Aegis combos were so sick, and I couldn't do more than 2 basic ones-one of them to switch sides. I still love the character and would play him if my internet wasn't trash. Just play the character you like or feels right and don't worry about being optimal, just work on improving in any way. For me, I still have trouble keeping track of my opponent's meter and the options they have from it, so it doesn't really matter if I can't be optimal.
So glad for this nuanced take. No game is for everybody, and there's plenty of space for games with high execution stuff and games with one button everything (Shout outs to Phantom Breaker 🖤).
Personally I prefer games that have some amount of execution baked into the strategy overall like Blazblue/AH3/GG/Marvel/Skullgirls/etc. I also accept that even a quarter circle motion is a barrier for entry for newbies, so am very grateful for games where you *can* get into the strategy on day one without having to learn a bunch of arbitrary motion inputs (again, shout outs to Phantom Breaker, go play it with your non-FG friends).
I always like it when characters have an execution curve where you have easy basic bnbs but have harder stuff you can learn to be more optimal. Like tsubaki in bbcf has some tricky optimal stuff with her dp followup whiffs and staircase combos in the corner but I don't *need* to know any of that.
Serendipitous that this video came out today. I haven't been enjoying success nearly as much as season two, because I didn't like the pot changes. I feel like it took away his lower skill options and added high skill options. This video gives some context.
When I pointed that out imagine my surprise when people actually read it, and I got roasted by chat feat hotashi (rightfully so, though I think it was all in good humor).
Anyway your videos are very well timed
I look at it like this adding this will definitely make the mirror matches we always see with him be more interesting and more hype instead of the long drawn out match
I didn't watch the video. Instead, I'd like to share what I think about fighting games and why I don't like them as someone who doesn't play them. First, I've got a full-size job and I can't be arsed to do a fireball motion. Second, my cousin won't stop using that one move. Ergo, fighting games suck. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
🤣 oof, "full-size job" always kills me
12:29 Putting em on full blast.
Brain and body? Nah I'm no skill, head empty, all heart baby
It's best for the genre if there's different games that each emphasize an element of fighting games mastery, so people have a game that really lets them dive into what they like. Kyanta is most known for being wacky but I really enjoy it for what it chooses to demand of players.
This is probably trying to capture the dynamic of the difficult timing combos Guile has in 5, but having you just get a less good combo instead of no boom at all coming out mid combo and you get wrecked
i think creating variance in execution is very good for the game
When sajam talks about those things that people rage about, i love the way he explains them.
But im not sure if those people ever change their mind because of what he explains, maybe if they calm down after staying away from fighting games for a while, but generally people that start an argument because they cant stand the feeling of frustration and not accept and just sit with it, dont respond to logical arguments positively and simply refuse to believe them.
It clearly makes sajam more likeable to people that already are in the mindset of fair competition which is a good thing, but i hope he doesnt invest himself to much to a point that he gets exhausted by doing these talks.
I just watched a video in which Diaphone said he doesn't do I-No's optimal corner combo cause he drops it too much.
I can do it consistently but he's still MUCH better at the game than me...execution by itself is not going to make you win.
The funny detail for Kazunoko, in Strive he plays Jack'O and actually developped a bunch of the unique tech for her lol
It's pretty out of character for him imo.
It really feels like people who fighting games aren't necessarily for complaining about fighting games not being for them. Similar to the point made in the day9 video you showed on screen, a big part of the reason the people who play these games play them is because there's some sort of execution requirement. At the end of the day these are games and the fgc generally has fun playing games where they need to practice combos and other techniques and want to use them in a competitive environment.
love the video, this sort of advice can bring people back to fighting games and people having fun with it
I feel like this discourse happens every couple of months but its flips on weather execution to much or I shouldn't have to study as much
definitely one of your better videos on this subject
im one of those people who is concerned about execution. but as you brilliantly point out, you can incorporate your execution level into your strategy and work around it
for awhile i was trying to learn seth in sf5 because i thought they were cool as hell. but i couldnt do half the shit you needed to do in order to get the most out of the character. in frustration, i tried other characters before settling on flowchart sagat. throw fireballs because those are within my execution range, poke/dp when they get close, and spent all my exeuction focus on learning combos that were relevant to the ranges i liked to play. i enjoyed a lot more success and, more importantly, i had a lot more fun because my brain wasnt raging out at me for dropping another fucking combo i barely understand on seth
i carried this mindset over to strive where i *wanted* to play millia, tried her for a bit, then said fuck this and moved on with my life and im much happier with where im at now (testament)
Wait, you struggled with Seth, one of the easiest and most free flowing characters in sfv?
But Millia is a pretty easy character to play? The only things that are particularly difficult to do is mirazh cancel septem and now the kapel air to ground combos. And even that isn't that hard.
@@blyat8832 cant say i found seth all that "easy"
if you want to imply im some kind of idiot then sure we can go with that pointlessly cruel assessment why not
@@gatocochino5594 well i guess im a huge idiot then arent i thanks gato
@@KTSamurai1 I never said you were an idiot lmao. I was actually asking what you were struggling with so I could give advice since I also main the character but you know, fragile egos will always assume shit so nevermind, keep struggling
That day9 insert caught me by surprise. I also remember james chen talking about this a while back
Sajam says he plays everything but we havent had a rhythm game on stream to this day?!?!?!?
Great Video :)
oh i HELLA second this 😆
So cool that boom can also be BOOM!
Well-spoken, great coaching
Ah yes, the Burnt Toast and Butter Combos.
Just seeing this now that the game has come out and at first i thought it would be if you hit the perfecr charge time it would buff the move but its just from hitting forwards and punch at the same time which is so incredibly easy you should hit perfect every single time basically. I do find it kinda weird they would add this in in this way when as far as i know there are no other moves in the game that only require pressing the buttons together to get a buffed version.
As a Slayer main with the absolute worst execution of BDCs and no air conversions, this is very validating towards my meager winstreaks.
Weird, I don't remember writing this comment.
I'm glad execution has both depth and accessibility in this game.
I'm personally not good at combos and I've been playing ASW games since GGX. It's just not something I'm good at. I instead leaned into learning neutral and learning parries (I played Hakumen in BlazBlue). This means that I can control the pacing, but I don't capitalize as much on opportunities. But I can still hold my own in matches. I just learned to play to my strengths.
Assuming that this is throwing out a perfectly charged sonic boom, to me this seems to be just doubling down on the strategy that already exists in executing charge moves - there's an extra incentive now for not continuing to hold back and wait for the best time to throw your projectile because the boom is better... but also, y'know, throwing out perfect booms all the time is gonna be pretty predictable.
I think what I struggle with in this topic is that I am bad at execution so playing games like KOF or Street Fighter is frustrating. To me they are execution heavy. I can barely even do the simplest of combos so I feel like I can't even get in the gate. Someone can 3 touch me to death and I gotta 12 touch them. So it becomes frustrating when I struggle to do simple things.
some people struggle to learn more than others, so solutions for this 𝘥𝘰 exist! 👍
do you feel your struggle to execute is too much to _ever_ play❓
if not, you can *emphasize* whatever parts of your character you find most ~convenient~, or even try other characters for a temporary boost 🚀
@@yourbellboy i still play a lot of fighting games. The last one i enjoyed was GG Strive. I think my biggest issue with combos and string execution is timing and rhythm as i no sense for either xD
You dont need to dunk to enjoy basket and being able to adds strategy to your game and what you gonna do in different situations
The part where he said theres people who are complaining about simple controls, but then theres people who complain about execution like just inputs: its literally the internet. People always have to bitch