The Dominant Playstyle of the Last Game Factors into the Design of the New Game
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- Опубліковано 31 бер 2024
- streamed Mar. 27, 2024
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#FGC #Sajam #SF6 #Tekken #GGST #GBVSR - Ігри
its so freaky that someone already made such a realistic v-tuber of that twitter pfp
Do you remember when Daigo complained about how defensive SFV was in around its 5th year and most people treated it like an old man with dementia making no sense? lol
You look just like that guy I keep seeing on twitter today
I think people forget that for most of its life, common discourse suggested that SFV was a dumbed-down offense-only game that lost the creativity and variety of IV. It's really only been in its twilight that people have considered it a defensive game with nuance and creative variety. And so the cycle repeats
I mean Punk and Arslan are ultimately much much much better players than I will ever be, but I think they're too quick to call shots on a meta that still has a long way to go before it's fully developed
edit: you literally point this out right at the end of the video. what can i say. i love posting and im too eager
I mean meta has been pretty stagnant for SF6, the game hasn't even had its first real balance patch yet and it's been out for 9 months. People know the game's meta by now.
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 has it been stagnant? Every month the top 5 change as we learn more. Only the low tier characters have been stagnant
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 The top players are still constantly varying on who's top tier, nobody seems to agree where AKI belongs and the one person who thinks she's strong was MenaRD's closest defeat at Kumite, JP players are suddenly switching for Blanka for some reason, rushdown characters getting depreciated while defensive ones rise until UMA suddenly destroys Capcom Cup.... so no, I disagree. There's still a lot of work to be done. And then there's said balance patches we're still waiting for.
I'm reminded of SFV Dhalsim: Considered bottom 5 for most of the lifespan, only got nerfed in patches, ended up considered top 5 by the end
It's because it doesn't take as long to learn strong offense as it takes to learn how to deal with that offense, so pretty much every game is gonna look skewed towards offense at first
@@Puffufuf indeed, well said
I don't love being afraid to press a button when drive rush is coming out or at the very best eating a free 50-50 when I block a heat smash, but I am so glad that neither the drive nor heat system came out so weak that I wondered why they even implemented it at all. Each of these systems will be better once they're toned down, but I think it's valuable to have designed them strongly to start so that they actually have meaningfully impacted the game. That would suck to know that we're just playing Street fighter 5.5 or Tekken 7.5.
Salt tweets are the bane of FGC discussion; there's nothing to discourage top players from doing them, and every scrub under the sun reposts them everywhere like it's irrefutable evidence that the game is trash
If you sat Punk or Arslan down and had a genuine discussion with them on the topic, I'd imagine they'd give much more nuanced takes
they did, they talked about this in a 3 hour podcast. HEATSPEAK PODCAST #1
salt tweets are the spice of FGC discussion i love this shit what are you talking about
@@bug-deal Sure, but like anything else, too much will lead to nothing but death and destruction.
Hell, excess salt is why scrub quotes are a thing. And as funny as they can be sometimes, nobody benefits (at least not long-term).
Twitter (and most social media outlets) really are horrible for nuance and debate, its a shame really
The best part of this discourse has been pulling up to the discussion to shill Under-Night
That's the part I sometimes don't get. There are other games that offer the varied playstyles but some of the these players dont want to play it,
@@TehStylishone I think UNI is super cool, but I also get that there are plenty of reasons to not like the game. Some people might not like the artstyle/sound design, or the way the game feels, etc. If someone is a SF fan, I could see the game feeling too fast paced or hectic for them. Personally, I haven't been playing it as much just because it's so hard to find opponents around my skill level (I never played the old UNI games, and I'm not super keen on going on Discord to find opponents). Especially for pros whose career is dependent on sponsorships, Twitch viewership and winning tournament money, it makes sense to play the popular games. All this to say, even though UNI is awesome and people should definitely try it out, just because it has one feature that people want, doesn't mean that the rest of the game will be enjoyable to them.
Punk: "Everyone's a rushdown now!"
Also Punk: *Cammy main*
Lol true. Weird thing is recently Punk tried Jamie and Ed at TNS and he got good results (iirc he got 2nd place at TNS 9 with Ed and won weekly TNS online with Jamie) which he played more calculate and waiting for whiff punish. He only lost and also won against NuckleDu Guile.
But then Punk played Cammy at RBK and while he got 3rd place but it's crystal clear that not everyone plays rushdown nor rushdown is the ultimate solution. He lost 5-0 to Mena who plays excellent changed up his Blanka between rushdown, mixed up, perfect parry, and whiff punish. So i'm quite confused with Punk statement that said everyone's a rushdown.
@@johkerx9107she's the literal definition of a rushdown character, no matter how you play it. You can also play Guile as a rushdown character and that doesn't make Guile any less of a zoning character.
I haven't even been playing fighting games for very long and it's been pretty funny to see the main thing people complain about in modern fgs go from "these games are too neutered" to effectively "these games are too crazy"
Reminds me of Monster Hunter World
When the game came out MH oldheads were like "this game is too easy 😂 they're making MH for babies" and then Iceborne came out and the oldheads were like "this is too much 😢 I miss old Monster Hunter"
The FGC pros are also pros in hyperbole. You'll see everyone complaining about everything especially when they lose to it, it's just how it is.
@@Sorrelhasiceborne isn't too much, it's just way too different from what mh is. World was different enough to be whatever, but still kept the combat the same. Clutch claw effectively made the game unplayable for me. The visuals for something getting broken are gone, and now you can just ignore weak points because now you can make anything hittable with clutch claw. It's way too different, and I hate it
@@liljon042 Nah bro, there were a lot of people complaining that the game was just flat out hard, Clutch Claw non-withstanding
"Oh, this monster is too fast, oh damage is too high, artificial difficulty"
@@Sorrelhas Then they were never good at the games to begin with. Way too many people tried to justify their opinions on mh by saying they played the old games but I can assure you if they played any of the old games they'd be raging harder than any dark sould boss. lol But as someone who played most of the psp games (specifically portable 2 and 3rd) and some of the 3ds games (surprisingly skipped 4, but played 3 ultimate and Gen, gen being my most played by far, as that's when the series really clicked with me) Iceborne felt like too big of a departure of the core gameplay. Clutch claw made the game too easy, and they knew that by the end of iceborne which is why Alatreon and Fatalis don't work with clutch claw. But on the whole I agree with the sentiment, way too many people think that something being too "simple" to "complex" when in reality it's just hivemind "new game" mentality. "NEW GAME BAD, OLD GAME BETTER CUZ I'M BETTER AT IT"
there has never been a product or piece of media released that has satisfied EVERYONE. There has never been a product released that tried to satisfy everyone that has succeeded. If you try and satisfy everyone, you end up satisfying no one. There are just some folks who will not like your vision. Its as simple as "what I made isnt designed for you". That is the conviction & mentality anyone who creates things has to have.
Fighting game devs just need to make their vision of a game, tweak it, fix it, etc. But stand by their vision. I as a customer, no matter if I like the product or dont, do not want the same type of game over and over. I wouldnt want T8 or SF6 to be exactly like T7 or SF5 with a fresh coat of paint. Otherwise I will simply go back and play those games if I like them. The value of choice. You'll eventually find what your looking for.
AA and Punk style does seem to suit previous games play styles and what they personally prefer. But they are also talented enough to adjust and may still find something they like & value in the new stuff. There is some stubbornness that seems to happen every time a new FG releases too. Folks dont want to change at all. Both T8 and SF6 are in vanilla stage. They will eventually change. But I really wish the devs will stick with their vision going forward. Again, if you dont like it you dont have to play it.
This is a perfect analogy for real world fighting. My old instructor told me that you cant block forever cuz you’ll eventually miss a block and get hit so turtling is impossible. That’s why high-level fighting is kindof a glass canon affair. Its more about oppressive offense and controlling your opponent through feints and instead of mostly blocking you mostly dodge. Kinda awesome how Tekken 8 is very similar.
Unlike in real fighting , getting hit doesn’t send you flying in the air for a 10 hit combo
@@hands-ongaming7180 lol no, but if i hit you right i can stun you and just blast you with a 5-hit combo that breaks yur jaw and like 2 ribs >:3
@@hands-ongaming7180 in real fighting getting hit the once does about the same damage as that 10 hit combo
Real life is nothing like Fighting Games. Real life fighting is all about defense. For mma, they teach you how to defend the takedown or how to check kicks. In real life, you can't throw out attacks recklessly without draining yourself. Let me know when fighting games add a stamina meter.
@@hands-ongaming7180you're right! In real life you get cooked by getting hit clean in the face once especially if its a kick
Speaking as someone who only kinda keeps up with fighting games, it feels to me like everyone loves new games for a month and then top players say “actually this sucks” and the cycle repeats. Not trying to complain, or invalidate anyone… but it does feel like an inevitability at this point
Not really the case but the thing is that it does take players a while to figure the game out and come out with criticism (often very legitimate criticism).
it's notable to me that the only people who complain tend to be ones who joined the FGC from the last game. SFIV players did this for V, now V players do it for 6. Legacy players are used to the adjustment
@AdamJorgensen How often is often because it feels like more of an even split between the valid and rose tinted glasses venting. For every either online or tournament validated opinion (like an overtuned character) there's someone who says something easily identifiable as false and a bunch of people take that and run with it (like randomness, knowledge checking, or taking a risk with an unsafe move only being a thing now)
theres like 50 pros to a thousand plus casuals.
This guy gets it. They shill for the newest shit. It's apart of the content cycle
Something I definitely agree with Punk about is that strong system mechanics make for weak character differences. If the thing you scared of in multiple matchups is your opponent turning green, then that's a system mechanic you're interacting with rather than a specific character tool.
Absolutely. SF2 had very little "system" mechanics as we would currently think of them. So even characters that theoretically wanted to get in your face and open you up (Blanka, Gief) had to do very different things. SF6? Get opponent to block a cancelable normal, DRC, free mixup. Then go NDR to repeat the pressure. That's a deep enough understanding of the game until Master, which... ooph.
I think sajam was right, we just need to have a no twitter allowed rule for players that just got eliminated in the future
A no twitter allowed rule would do a lot of good for the fgc and just society in general lol
Look to history. People have been complaining about "nowadays," since before the modern system of counting days. If someone says "nowadays," you can safely assume they're salty that their autopilot isn't getting the results they want and they're only just starting to confront that fact. This is true for all aspects of life.
"Kids these days,"
"Women these days,"
"Society these days,"
Etc. Before good, present bad.
Social Media have accelerated the negativity, since negativity gets clicks.
A thing a lot of people forget is that highly rushdown centric games tend to reward good defensive play in the long run. Better aggression means a touch in neutral means more and a lot of attempts by fighting game devs to make rushdown centric games have ended up in very defensive high level play during the later stages. It seems to me like you need to make rushdown bonkers broken to even have a chance of it actually staying that way over the games lifecycle.
Honestly the balance of offense and defense is just really hard: lean slightly too far in either direction and either everyone gets run over and dies after a single mistake or no one engages ever because the risks outweigh the reward in too many situations, even when you somehow magically strike a balance people complain about the game being "mad random" or parts of the cast being rule breakers or something. I've accepted that I generally don't have the motivation to play games long-term anymore so I just play characters I like the designs of: Siegfried in Granblue, Lee in Tekken, C Red Arc in MBAACC, etc. I'm prolly not going to stick with any particular game for long so might as well play someone who looks cool and get my 30-60 hours before moving on
Man this was me like 10 years ago. Played Cerebella in Skullgirls and Nova in UMvC3 and Taskmaster in MvC3. The cycle will just continue but at an accelerated rate. Someone wins a tourney and that character needs nerfs or the game has a bunch of "flaws" as the game gets figured out rinse repeat until 20XX.
I think that offense becomes stronger when players are unfamiliar with the games systems. And therefore, changing the game inherently boosts offense, regardless of whether the changes explicitly encourage aggression or not.
Ive seen time and time again, the longer a fighting game goes without receiving major changes, the more defensive it becomes. Tekken 7 and sf5 were both criticized in the beginning for being too aggression centric, but by the end of their lifetime, they had become extremely defensive. Yes, sf5 received V shift later down the line which significantly buffed defense, but afaik tekken 7 didnt receive anything similar, yet it still became a defensive game. Guilty gear xrd eventually became centered around suffocating your opponent in neutral with YRC. Mbaacc players now spend much more time in neutral with the games air movement then they did in the past. The list goes on.
I think this is because offensive playstyles are inherently good at taking advantage of a lack of experience or knowledge in your opponent. Meanwhile, an effective defensive playstyle *negates* the skill of your opponent; it doesnt matter how good your opponent is at reading you if you can react and change course.
There is also a hard cap on how strong offense is. Once all of the setups and strings have been discovered and performed consistently, thats it. But you can always get at least a tiny bit better at managing your mental stack and trying to react.
I love how concise the title is btw
It's interesting to look back at old fgc videos about SF5 and see people say basically the same things they're currently saying about SF6. Like go back and watch Core-A Gaming's "Concequence of Reducing the Skill Gap" video, and the pros are saying the same stuff about how the game is too random or too offensive focused.
Tbh early sfv was as garbage as they say
When will you cover Rare Sajams gameplay
I believe that there's room for either defensive or offensive play for a game to be designed around and at the end of the day it's preference which one you like more.
I usually like to play rushdown and offensive-heavy games with a high pacing, but then I play a game like Sekiro or the Batman Arkham games where defensive play can engage me in a similar manner.
what's that list sajam mentions at 12:25? first i've heard of arcsys addressing the current state of the meta
The breakdown at 8:58 is fantastic.
The point about how games like SFV were for different people at the start and end of its life really makes me wish they expanded on Version Select as Street Fighter went on instead of dropping it. Being able to keep all the old versions of characters, and each "season" of system mechanics even, preserved and accessible in the final version. Nowadays it'd probably be limited to local and private lobbies but it's worth having. It's worth letting the children 10 years from now turn on Season 1 JP with those system quirks, and see how he plays against a Season 4 Kimberly after they gave her steroids and added Drive Bomber or something.
The comment about GBVS really brought back some memories.
Even in Rising, trying to run with some characters like Vas or Ladiva looks silly because if how little space you gain, and youre not even allowed to block out of run.
Thats fine up until you're getting checked by Kat or Grans +2 on block 2m in vs1.0
When you talk about how frame data changes a lot in sf6. That remind me how in smash the knockback change all the time and how that close and open different combo routes.
Good video WINNER'S PRIZE. I enjoyed
Did you quote the amazing Faith no More, @sajam?
The discourse around Tekken 8 is mainly from players who have to change their play style and don't want to so they complain. Arslan would not be complaining if he was winning.
Like him calling out throws when they were completely irrelevant at semi-high to top tier play in 7
This is the only correct answer
More like Arslan ASS
What about people who enjoy playing a certain style? Not everyone likes being aggressive all the time. it's certainly more exciting to watch for the average person, but naturaly some people wont like being forced to change playstyles
i found the green ranks
What was the list you mentioned here? 12:27
I want to look it up but idk where to look
oh no the way i abused the meta in last game dosent work in new game yeah this game is just for scrubs dont got no neutral
Lmaooo fr😂😂😂
you do realise that some mechanics are more scrub friendly, by design?
@@riveteye93probably not
@@riveteye93 then you should have no problems.
Fuckin Punk always complaining when shit’s not in his favor. You can literally see the rage in his face at times when he sees all the new top-level players and he’s no longer king. Boo fucking hoo Paladin is awesome
Fighting games aren't hard to balance, they're _impossible_ to balance. Sure Punk and Arslan Ash might be unhappy now, but if you change the game to make them happy maybe Kazunoko and Knee are unhappy. And if you change to make _them_ happy, maybe MenaRD and SonicFox are unhappy. There are enough different playstyles and players at the top that it will be literally impossible to please them all with _any_ iteration of the game.
That's not to say you can't have good game balance, it's just to say that you can never have _perfect_ game balance, and if you did it would get stale and people would be mad about that instead.
What a video title.
When im 5 seconds in and hear the words twitter discourse i know its about to be a banger vid
"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."
See i have a question: are there any new fgs out there rn that are more on the defensive side? Cuz it really feels like all fgs out now are a bit aggro in some way. I feel like the people that prefer slower games have nowhere to go, and that maybe the real issue here.
Try Under Night 2
SamSho's right there
undernight
James Chen put the perfect counter in 'Play UNI2'
@@kerbonaut2059what about uni makes it a defense heavy game?
i think its crazy cause ALREADY Jin in T8 is way more pokey and midrange than people are saying the game is saturated with. he's got that luke rizz
the best defense is being able of getting out of having to defend, as quick as possible and forcing your opponent to defend
Truly insane seeing that take from Punk after six solid months of JP.
I think the people like the new sytle. They been defensive for a long time and now even Guilty Gear Strive changed there system mechanics to adapt to a aggressive playstyle and I believe the games Tekken 8 SF6 being popular started a trend to make it more aggressive. Maybe you don't like the aggressive Era, but at least give it a chance to play out after this long drawn Defensive era the fighting game community has been in. Who knows maybe you seen shit you never seen before and that in itself is worth it. The playstyles are still there but now you gonna see them adapt to this new wave it hasn't been that long yet.
You might be surprised.
Guilty gear has literally *always* been aggressive as it's style. People complained about GGS because it felt simultaneously less aggressive and more volatile.
The problem isnt focusing on aggression, its forcing volatility. The way that aggression is encouraged and enforced through mechanics like Drive Rush or the Heat System encourage a lot of wonky RPS situations and forced 50/50s. Whether that's good or not is whatever but there have been plenty of aggressive games that did not have to do it in such artificial and purely volatile ways.
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 GGST was fine for me...until it led me to Xrd. That game just feels so much better in comparison that it really killed my enjoyment of Strive. It's a pity, because Strive looks amazing but it's just not as fun to actually play.
@@AdamJorgensenfelt the same way. I played strive for 700 hours and enjoyed myself until I started taking xrd seriously instead of just pressing and strive suddenly felt pretty rough in comparison. The game really does feel simultaneously slower and yet also more volatile.
I was really hoping for a discussion about playstyles. Not guilty gear which I used as a example for 1 second.
Endless race to make interactive Mechanics and characters that can balance them
Sajam with the objective takes. Not the hero we want, but definitely the one we need.
Interesting theory...
It's nice to see fuudos tour guide can branch out and make a name for himself
End of life Tekken 7 was a game with so much offensive power.....and a weak defence. It was no question of why people didn't swing because it was DEATH and you just had to accept that your options to stop that weren't very good. This is why I really don't think the way Tekken 8 is designed fixes that because now it's just MORE power and MORE aggression with a slightly improved defence.
Okay but I should be able to check drive rush consistently if I’m looking for it. Im cool with offensive options being strong, but if I commit to reacting to a specific approach option, I should be able to consistently beat that option It feels so bad when you read a drive rush, see the drive rush, react to the drive rush and then the game eats your input. Again, I’m cool with drive rush being strong and I think it makes the game more fun. I just wish it wasn’t a gamble to defend against.
as for sf6, i love the game and it is the one i found the most personal success on, but i just wish blocking didn't feel so bad. I'm correctly blocking left/right and overhead/low, doing delay mash or delay throw whenever i see fit and keeping a huge amount of options in mind for DI, resets etc, and as a reward i just lost a lot of drive gauge.
sure, just parry blablabla, but then you're taking more damage from throw because you had to commit to parry if you don't want to lose gauge
i'm absolutely not the best player nor qualified enough to balance a fighting game, but personally i wish i could feel good about correctly blocking and teching instead of having to commit to parry and eating shit on a wrong guess lol
IMO the first thing I would change about defense is make the throw whiff longer. I think if you backdash a throw there should be a guarenteed punish (maybe not a big one but at least a knockdown).
I believe it was Marx who said "The dominant play-style is the play-style of the dominant tiers."
Damn hes good, another banger vid
I understood the points for the most part but wasn't XRD very fast and hectic? I thought that was the selling point both for play and for spectating - it was just fast-paced all the time in all directions. How does Strive vs. XRD factor into this point?
i think strive is slower but also feels more volatile and random and more snowbally with the wallbreak whereas xrd usually has some more dynamic back and forths, although im not sure on this
I like tekken 8, it feels more simplified and yes feels faster, we are still very early, I am moreso worried with the monetization of it
As a Street Fighter 09er who likes rush down it's really refreshing to see a current generation of games encourage that instead of heavy offense always being a "scrubby" playstyle that will get countered reliably in most cases by strong opponents.
Not saying SF6 or T8 don't need changes or even be toned down here and there but generally accelerating gameplay seems fine
I'm more pressed about fighting games doing battle passes. Fuck Fortnite.
its crazy that the most viewed fighting game moment is about defensive play and now we just get aggressive mechanics.
Aight we gota set the record straight on this one: Moment 37 is a showcasing of top level defensive understanding followed by literal god tier aggressive gameplay but it is a clip the only exists because of aggression mechanics.
The low kick trade that leaves Daigo at pixel health is an aggressive decision from both himself and his opponent that forces him into a single line of play when he realizes the super is about to come out. Daigo's defensive play was forced interaction through a previous aggressive play.
ON TOP OF THAT: The combo Daigo used was not bread and butter and was the only combo (to my knowledge) that would have killed Jwong as a super punish in that scenario.
Moment 37 was created by the existence of chip damage which is an aggression rewarding mechanic, yet inside that aggressive system Daigo was able to play out a forced defense that took crazy precision to make. He would not have had to have made that decision if not for chip.
Shout-out to Ryan Hart and Punk for always being the real ones.
I think people also need to realise both games are still in their vanilla forms and it is VERY rare for vanilla fighting games to be their best versions.
When are you gonna change the channel pfp to your Twitter one? How else are we going to know who you are???
Going to be honest I usually ignore your videos when they show up in my feed. But this is by far the most rational and reasonable take I heard from anyone in the fgc in a long time. There is so much dishonesty and rage baiting and I truly appreciate you being very reasonable about where the games are and how they will change over time. Everyone criticized the Turtle style poking. All characters are not rushdown characters because they have made attempts to force more action
Street Fighter 6 being completely overwhelming compared to what I learned in V is probably why I would probably benefit from playing it more.
was there ever a fighting game when disparate people with very different playstyles were all happy?
We are all looking for different things in FGs. The devs, top players, competitors and the rest of the community are all looking for different ways to enjoy the SAME game. We will never be on the same page on this topic, and it's okay.
Crazy to watch the video then look at comments and realize the comments are all just people shitposting without even watching the video lol
Its also a factor that offense usually develops faster than defense does.
I think its important for those who do dislike more aggressive systems, that ultimately if the game slows to a crawl at the top level, its hard to show the game to friends who might be interested. Ive had this happen with League, I tried to get a friend into league because I make bad decisions I guess, but they were unsure, I said "Hey worlds finals is in a few days wanna watch that with me first?" Thinking that seeing the top players go at it would have them wanna try it. Then finals came around....and we spent like 3-4 hours watching some of the slowest league Ivd ever watched and it killed my want to watch more pro league and they never tried the game.
Games being faster and more aggressive is good for everyone, just adapt, you got this.
League has had that issue for like, a decade though. Still one of the most played game on the planet for reasons?
Most people aren't deciding to buy their games based on how exciting top level play is though.
Also not everyone likes faster and more aggressive games, that's kinda why this discourse is happening in the first place
@@lainahtan13 Ah but if you follow League Competitive scene you may be actually able to pin point the exact year this was. Because even Riot the following years was fill with their attempts to make the game more fast paced and aggressive after that year's Worlds wrapped up because no one really enjoyed watching it, it was quickly dubbed the most boring worlds ever by the community at large. League is an outlier, its kept relevancy due to the huge player base it had at one point as well as the recent push from riot into other media such as Arcane as well as the Riot Forge games, but the competitive side of LoL has been bleeding numbers consistently ever since 2016/2017. I can't exactly prove this until multiple companies for some reason announce player numbers, but I also do not believe its the most played game planet anymore, it still holds that stigma but Riot themselves even have admitted that less and less people are playing league, they are burning players, as well as those who do still play even less even play ranked anymore.
Riot has made multiple changes to the guts to LoL to create a more fast paced game, because even Riot has gone on record to say that "Queuing up only to lose to something in the first 10 minutes and then wait for an hour for the game to finish sucks".
No one should feel bad about how they play or being good enough at a game to slow a game down, pro players are able to do that no matter the competitive game, if you go watch high level CSGO you'll watch some of the most slow paced shooting that can happen while even just jumping in to a regular game will have most people die relatively quickly. Which is why I said "Adapt you'll be fine" cause ultimately aggressive play always will have some sort of answer, until fighting games implement a "press button to guard break and stun and its 3 frames and buffs damage" universal option, or League adds a summoner spell that destroys all turrets in a lane while also buffing minions for the next 3 waves, or CSGO adds a auto aim rifle that you can buy round 1 and you can shoot through walls with and has built in wall hacks. Anything a aggressor does will have something a defender can do in response, having games with more aggressive options means that I just have to think more about what the other person is doing while I zone them out with projectiles, or the positioning of the team with blast plants when I'm farming under turret in league.
Call me weird but...even if Im playing a zoner I still kinda hate it when it becomes mindless? Hell these games with more aggressive mechanics built in has allowed me to enjoy more and more characters in fighting games, because at least when Im doing my best to wall someone out, they can still get through that pressure and make me respond and change my gameplan. I'm not exactly playing these games to have a solo player experience XD
@@bibblehouse Correct most people are not, and my experiences are not universal, however to ignore how high level play impacts the perception of people who want to get into a game is doing a disservice to a game as many people will go and say "hm Im not sure how I feel about this game Im gonna either ask my friend who is into it or go look up content about it will say about the game." and if that initial response is met with slow game-play it'll often leave a air of disinterest in the game or worse the hobby as a whole.
While my experiences are not universal I do talk to a lot of people who enjoy other types of games constantly, I feel uniquely privileged in this, from RTSs, to FPSs, to TCGs, to single player games be that harder games like the fromsoft library, to long RPG's with so many in built systems that the person could write their college dissertation on the game, to the quieter titles of stardew valley and specifically single player minecraft. Often these people who enjoy these games but not fighting games will try and give reasonings to why they dont pick up fighting games, and trust me while I hear a number of reasons why speed is rarely the thing that comes up. Often I have actually heard the reverse, specifically from the RTS crowd which felt weird at first, but they hated the idea of playing against someone who played purely defensive and were not given the resources and options to open them up. The only time or crowd that I heard of someone being overwhelmed being a factor against getting into fighting games was the TCG crowd, they often sited the ability to take as long as they need to think about their options and pick the most optimal one each turn as something they feel overwhelmed with in fighting games, which would meet with the idea that recent fighting games are way to aggressive. However when I brought these TCG people in Duelist of Eden, something that is sorta a bare bones "fighting game" that trust me is not exactly lacking for information intake, and based around a card system (how I got them to try it) they took to it like a fish to water. we talked about it afterward as to why that might be because we both thought it was interesting, and the conclusion was that atleast for them, not having to think about *how* their move would happen and knowing it just would allowed them to interact with the movement and guarding and dodging of the rest of the game and play neutral with me. These people would never have touched Tekken 7 with a 10'ft pole even though its currently being heralded as the better Tekken game by those who want a slower experience, but a game where they didnt have to worry about motions or complicated button inputs to do their combo's which allowed them to move rapidly around and play footies with me, that they thoroughly enjoy and its turned into a game I can play with any of them whenever they are around.
Speed is one factor that can play into someones preference of game yes but it doesnt make a competitive scene any worse to have aggressive options, it doesnt play much of a factor into why someone would even pick up a game in the first place, and at bare minimum it doesn't prevent the game from having multiple archetypes be viable. It wasn't very long ago that the SF6 patch notes came through but before that Luke was a defensive wall and one of the best characters in the game (not saying *the* best because in my opinion, thats a matter of opinion in that game) was JP who is a zoner.
If someone likes the slower paced gameplay thats fine, you can like that, hell I like that, but I think complaining about new games becoming more aggressive instead of finding ways to adapt to it is kinda dumb. And then if whoever wants a slower experience finds they can't find a way to adapt to this new game, then its not like the previous has gone anywhere, yes the playerbase is smaller but its not gone, I can still find people on T7 if I queue up weirdly enough. As for pro players, well they honestly have the skill and know how to lab and find the options no one else can for that better defense, give it time, I promise you Tekken will slow down, its natural of a competitive game's life span.
I think the real discourse honestly just burns down to "old game good new game bad" which I honestly have stopped caring about because it happens every time a new game comes out, people like what they're used to and change is often met with disinterest if not distaste.
Feels like thay dont like strong universal mechanics
''sit there hitting their safe medium button''
wait, isnt how the game is played with the top tiers? crouch medium button into DR all day
Arslan who played the most auto evasive character in 7 not liking the need to adapt defensively to harder pressure situations is exactly the kind of post to be expected. No secret his weakness is confident aggressive playstyles and this game actually rewards using your buttons on both sides of the controller. Many Tekken 7 players grew used to being able to win matches without ever initiating or fighting their opponent and simply watching for mistakes or perceived impatience. It turns out their opponents simply wanted to play a fighting game, and Tekken 8 allows them to do so.
Hold this mixup. Hold this L. Infinite Azure is gone! Learn to engage and actively defend from a range less than 3! Even when necessary balance changes are inevitably mad, and the powerful options become lesser, this kind of player will still complain because the reality is they have to play the game on all levels now; no more running on your life lead because a character has a decent mix-up you have trouble defending against. The art of tapping back and downback has lost the usual reward and now other buttons are required. Defense was obnoxiously strong in , considering the only thing that got around it was a well-placed low or a grab system that was useless at a competitive level. Defense needed nerfed and strengthening other options was the best way to do that.
TL;DR People are BUTT mad that they can't stand like a statue reading lows and grabs to win a match anymore and they have to take risks instead of dumping all onus on their opponent. WHAT A WORLD WHAT A WORLD.
Arslan was very aggressive with Kuni and Kazumi. He was constantly in his opponents face pressuring.
@@beam5655 He was mostly a defensive player man come on lol, obviously you can point to moments of him being aggressive, but his playstyle mostly boiled down to extreme defense.
@@vietnamsemonky4082 Go watch either of Arslan 's EVO finals and tell me he's playing defensive. His style is safe aggressive poking.
Knee (and many of the Koreans) had a much more defensive/passive style.
There has to be something subliminal in twitter that turns reasonable people into saltlords
imagine the crytyping tweets if chess added en passant today
for anyone wanting bether defence jsut look at the absolut pain that are early for honor turnaments.
"...what Capcom doesn't want is someone throwing out safe crouching mediums and then converting when they connect and..."
*continues to explain Ken/Luke/JP meta with Daigo/Desk-level accuracy*
But YES, Footsies for EVO Main Stage 2025
something something new game bad old game good sol far slash
great points here. the way devs look at these games is different than how we do, they wanna move forwards rather than sideways.
I really like these points. My greatest fear currently is that the community is going to complain the new gen games into a version of their respective previous releases. Tekken 8 is technically in its buggy, broken arcade release phase yet top players are making sweeping judgements like "game bad" already. I hope devs keep to their goals instead of toning games back to where they were
I hope these games don’t just change because it doesn’t fit one pros play style that would be lame it’s a good thing that these games are different than their older ones because if not there is literally no reason to release a new game
I have always defended the newer games in the SF franchise, because the new vs old debate has always been silly to me.
Having said that, I think SF6 is a great game but the roster is awful. Some characters play like a wall and others play rushdown, but a lot of the interactions are the same and it's not as interesting. We saw in the first season, whenever a Grappler made an unexpected run everyone was hype because they provide different interactions.
This game needs a super update, with 10 interesting characters across the series. 4 characters a year, when two of them (Rashid and Akuma) are the same archetype as Ken, with Ed also being the same as Luke doesn’t make much difference.
4:58 Kinda of a nitpick but Daigo liked SF5 better than SF4 even, this analogy does not apply to SF5
5:40 Thats literally how luke plays tho (ok I saw his other video and thats kinda his point, I dont think luke playstyle is bad for the game tho, he is just too strong)
It’s funny people complain about offense in SF6 and also complain about perfect parry being too strong of a defensive option. Imagine no PP in SF6? You’d just have to hold tons of pressure and fifty fifty’s
The problem with PP is that offense is still strong AF, but now you can randomly get your jab perfect parried and now you're the one in the corner having to eat the nonstop mix-ups.
It's more about the game being random and unfun than unbalanced.
@@nickkiller-0710exactly, people don't dislike the *abstract concept* of offense, the issue is volatility. There's nuance to everything, it's fully possible to dislike both offensive and defensive mechanics for the same core reason.
The issue with perfect parry is that it's not purely a defensive tool. It's an everything tool. You whiff buttons on offense you instantly perfect parry this is like a fairly big part of the core offensive gameplay, we don't have to mention all the obviously strong defensive applications. It does too much no matter the side.
Yet NRS never ever seem to learn how to design zoning.
THANK YOU FOR SAYING EXACTLY WHAT I'M FEELING
The thumbnail is godlike. it's literally "if you know, you know..."
It's because there is no more time to think. Only offensive. You get attacked constantly, but the defensive options have a huge downside, but attacking constantly has low punishment. it's either a super or a ex dp to get you out and it is expensive the attacker is always on advantage
At least in a game like fighterz or strive you can actually get safe
I'm positive Sajam has already made a video discussing this, but literally all fighting games trend toward defense being overpowered as its life cycle gets longer. That is simply the nature of defense vs offense.
I'm not sure if it's a full vid but I'm pretty sure he's mentioned in one of the Tekken ones that he saw that defense still reigned even now in T8 at top level.
Even though Maximilian is not mega deep into competitive Tekken he can still recognize that at the end of the day you can still find Tekken being itself.
@@barakbrooks9288 Melee isn't a fighting game, so your point is moot.
"sit on a pile of coins like a dragon" love this analogy
Every fighting game after Super Turbo is trash because I can’t abuse Claw’s oppressive aerial mixup.
"The way you lost in [1.0 Granblue] ... the other person was playing better neutral than you so you lost."
This sounds like an endorsement lol
I think what you're missing here is that "playing better neutral" actually just means "has sword normals"
SFV was the most unfun fighting game, and those who did find it fun... yeah I understand why the growing pains from 5 to 6 are so strong.
It almost feels like you're not allowed to admit that you enjoy the more aggressive play style because then everyone will just shit on you lol. While I do think there are people who genuinely feel the same way that Arslan and Punk do, I can't help but think that some of them are essentially parroting the pros complaints so they can sound more "sophisticated" and fit in.
Its the old age bullshit of "current game is x old, therefore the old game is beter"
I think the line for OP game=inconsistent is still drawn at arena fighters. I’ve seen them pop up at tournaments here and there, but they usually need changes to be anywhere close to consistent.
am i weird for liking super defensive games
When games have a lot of defensive depth I think it can be very interesting, however theres a fine line between a defensive game and an uninteractive one. If the best option is to not do anything and wait for your opponent to attack the game has a problem
@@boomstickYT unitinteractive games tend to be the most skillful imho. Trying to play around defense tends to always let the better player win.
@@ltigre86 Its a dilemma for me. I agree that it’s a skill to play un interactive but in an ideal game I wouldn’t want that be a dominant playstyle because it makes matches much longer and the downtime isn’t always interesting.
@@boomstickYT i get why people wouldnt like that stuff and i do like platstyle variety but i enjoy the idea of reallly having to earn a hit. like i get why itd be a snooze fest but setting up whiff punishes with strong movement makes my dick hard
SF is fake fast. The universal mechanics are what brings all the intesity to the gameplay, the characters still feel as slow and street fighter-y as ever.
Instead of modern they shouldve just updated to a better motion input system. Instead of drive rush they shouldve just given more +, special and normal cancelable moves. All these things are patchwork fixes for things other fighting games have already figured out.
Capcom needs to stopstressing the comp scene and actually consider game design and what games feel good nowadays.
Going from guilty gear to tekken 8 “Abare p” beats all of the mechanics that people are complaining about. Sure the while running +on block mids are annoying and you gotta hold the mix after, but that’s what you get for not stepping or letting dragunov roll up on you like that. Good jab / df 1 game means you get to block after literally everything. I could see tekken 8 becoming a jab fest real quick and everyone will be complaining.
Seen this happen numerous times. This is why we study history. Check it, people will complain about the current iteration of any fighting game for years. People will continue to compare it with the old game and talk about how much they miss "x" thing from it. Fast forward a few years when a new version of that fighting game releases: same thing happens. Only now, it's this current iteration that they miss. Honestly, cry me a river. This little discourse will be forgotten and then repeated in due time. Not even worth the time. Let's just chill, play the game, and let twitter shout into the void.
if my memory serves me correct, all of the high level player's complaints about SFV on launch WERE valid. Things like CC damage, VT scaling, free DPs, certain normals, throw loops, etc, were complained about to no end, and the people complaining were called scrubs that need to "adapt" and "git gud" and all that. Then those things were changed, and it made the game better.
How do you expect the stupid things to get changed if you don't point them out? I see so many people dismissing the opinions of high level players because "oh they're washed up and complaining, lol". If high-level players, often of multiple games, aren't qualified to say that the game has issues, who is?
Excellent video. The problem with SF6 is that they have not balanced the cast. Characters like DJ and Luke should hit like sedans, not trucks. When you increase the amount of interactions to win a round, the game stays the same speed, but there is more time to attempt varied expression. And with characters like JP (I haven't been playing so I don't know if the nerfs changed this) and Guile so powerful it is lost on me that rushdown is the only style. Broski recently did a video on making 2 changes to every character (and none to Lily and 3 to Luke) and some of the most interesting changes were around how drive gauge functioned after level 2s with Rashid and Blanka. I don't think people would actually enjoy the slower game (though drive reversal should have a little more use), they want a more stable environment to use drive gauge. Blanka's level 2 in Mena's hands absolutely skips Punk's whole strategy and I understand why that is frustrating. But that isn't a universal problem.
What I think is true is that 2D fighting games face problems balancing good grapplers. Potempkin, Gief, and Manon have an invisible backpack on to preserve the experience of 80% of the player base at the cost of the competitive scene. In games like KoF this isn't a problem because of the high barrier of entry. Thus, the bigger Japanese fighting game series must work on making grapplers viable, while not overwhelming new players.
KOF doesn't necessarily have a high barrier to entry for grapplers or any other archetype, it just has more balanced system mechanics. Daimon gets to play mostly the same game in neutral at the cost of worse grabs in terms of damage. It's the same with Waldstein and Kouma, they can actually compete in neutral so their grabs don't have do 30%+, they usually only do slightly more than regular grabs.
Characters like Pot and Gief have neutral and command grabs that are intentionally bad, and compensate with high damage.
If you cut their grabs damage and startup in half and gave them functional neutral they'd work just fine, but like you said a plurality of players don't want this. For some reason grapplers can't be able to grab consistently.
ASW CEO making me sad talking such trash about Xrd 😞
Tekken 7 only problem I feel is the over KBD and magic 4... Had they just delete the magic 4, nerf kbd a bit it would be nice... things will still be smooth... but no they decided to add all of this shenanigans and the game just feels very clunky in comparison to T7...
Clayton kinda called it a long time ago. It's just his delivery kinda made it hard to appreciate
Clayton genuinely is an intelligent and analytical mind that has interesting insights and suggestions but he's so full of himself and "Me me me" "Well I would do this-" that it's difficult to take him seriously and it's like the Leffen effect. Sometimes they're spot on, sometimes they look like the biggest goober in the world.
@@kylefields3951 facts