Max C is so Toxic . You either dick deep and give your opponent to much plus or you Stop . ( What many Players wont do , because they want their Board ready regardless ) .
Magic Player: "Supply Squad feels nuts" Yugioh Player: "It's bold of you to assume that you will get another turn if you fail to win during yours. A rookie mistake."
I mean there is pretty much the same effect in magic on multiple cards, and while they see some play not many were ever considered staples outside of specific decks. Magics version is often even more powerful since they trigger no matter what kills your monster. But since they also often cost 3 or 4 mana so they only come out when the game is only lasting 1 or 2 turns longer and are thus severly limited.
after playing a bit of Master Duel after not having played since the early days of Synchros, I realized something very interesting: Drawing effects are OP because you AT MOST get 3 regular draws, and that's if the game lasts a long time. Usually, you only get one regular draw.
@@Nerobyrne I found it that Backup Squad is just a superior card to Supply Squad, honestly. It can lead you to up to 7 draws if things go your way and your opponent fails to finish you off which, combined with Maxx C can lead to a ridiculous card advantage
@@Sol0666 it really emphasises that mana costs are one of the defining features of Magic. That little cost can tell you straight away if something is supposed to be an early, mid or late game play, or something you cheat out as a win condition. In YGO, you don't have that luxury, and that's before you even start to discover just how ludicrously fast YGO is a game.
I love that you're getting guests that can really flex their knowledge here. Seeing people correctly identify concepts and piece things together is a treat. I like how Toffel pretty much instantly put together exactly how hand traps work and why they would be good, and understood the concepts behind Prosperity instantly as well.
Because instants in magic work more similar to a hand trap then a quick play, the closest thing would traps that can be used from hand. There is honestly very little difference between hand traps in yugioh and instants or cards with flash in magic heck magic even has quick play effects equivalents
@@rosewarrior706 Which is why these are good guests. Most people who do this sort of content get people who go "fat number big must be good" or who can't see the comparisons between card games.
"2 stars, 500/200 ATK/DEF; I'm just going to assume these numbers don't mean anything" is such a huge flex coming from someone that isn't familiar with how Yugioh works.
It's interesting but essentially the closest comparison in magic would be the card "force of will" which is an instant you can play for free from hand by discarding another card and taking negligible damage, in order to "negate" the casting of a spell (which is the term of playing any non land card). Even though force 2 for 1s YOU it is still the strongest piece of counter magic ever printed because it requires no on board resource which means a) you can use it going second on your opponents turn 1, b) in formats where it is legal untill they can prove otherwise opponents need to play around the chance that you might be playing this card and have it in your hand and c) you can spend all your on board resources and still interact with your opponent on their turn. Magic has plenty of other instants and instant speed cards that you can activate from hand on your opponents turn but most (not all) require some sort of on board resources, usually mana. When interaction can be cast without mana it is typically somewhere between "useful in niche situations" and "overwhelmingly good" so hand traps are ALWAYS going to seem good to magic players.
Toffel is a great guy and super aware and intuitive when it comes to TCG game-state stuff. He is legitimately a professional player. Pleasure to work with him as well!
Thing is that all games consist of three elements - Resources, skill and luck. When you remove the skill part (since we're stripping out the gamestate entirely) all that's left is reducing luck (drawing, tutoring) and resources used vs effect. The hardest things to evaluate are the regular, boring monsters, because their benefit is meta and deck dependent. But raw draw power, free counters and tutor effects are obviously busted.
I think Sea Monster of Theseus was a terrible pick for this, because it requires _relatively_ deep game knowledge of how synchros and fusions work before one can even judge it at all. Otherwise I love this series, please keep it up. I'd love to see more.
Yeah, I agree. To think it's good, you need to know about tuners, fusions, and how instant fusion works. You'd have to be in this weird state of knowing a lot about Yu-gi-oh mechanically but nothing metawise.
Its always refreshing to see a player that is not familiar with the game make an assessment whether cards or good or not. Especially if its coming from someone who is good at another card game. Keep up the great work, hope we see a part 3 next
Another thing to note about Pot of Prosperity is that for a lot of decks blocking draw effects doesn't actually mean anything. This is because effects that add cards to your hand are not draw effects unless they specifically say the word "draw". So a searcher that grabs a specific card is totally fine to use after Prosperity, because while all draw effects add cards to hand, not all effects that add cards to hand are draw effects.
This dude is smart. No wonder he’s a great player. He asked all the right questions and was able to analyze the effects very quickly. I’m sure he would’ve gotten them all right if he had asked all of the questions about the game, deck size, how many turns each game usually is etc. at the beginning 😂 awesome to see someone actually thinking these days lol
As somebody who went the other way, I imagine it’s much easier to do it how I did rather than learning Yugioh (especially modern Yugioh) as a magic player. I truly believe more meta knowledge is required to play a Yugioh locals than a large vintage event. Yugioh concepts translate better to magic than vice versa in most cases. I actually made some rather successful magic decks using little more than the knowledge I accrued rogue deckbuilding in Yugioh. Then again this was back in the early 2010s, and the games have both changed significantly since then. Still, if you approach both games with a similar mindset, you’ll definitely be better off than your average new player of either game.
"Sounds very action heavy and comlicated game" I love how with this brief interaction, he was able to describe the current state of yugioh perfectly LOL
Draw 6 cards, put 5 of them on the bottom of your deck, after removing a third of your toolbox from the game and not being able to draw more cards this turn (which, granted for many decks, neither of these are significant costs)
@@treyatkins4660 Given you get to choose which third of the toolbox you're removing, and given that "draw more cards" is a surprisingly nebulous term, it's nowhere near as bad as that implies.
@@misirtere9836 I have been out of the game for a couple of years, I honestly didn't know you got to choose the six. That definately changes things! There is almost always 6 cards that I will never use in a given matchup
@@misirtere9836 I have actually not hear of either card. The goto Pot in my last meta was Duality, and the one that banishes...10(?) cards from the top of your library had just released (unless that IS Extravagance and I just didn't know it by name)
That sea monster of Theseus is a brutal pick even if you know the synchros and fusion since that card always with 2 other card being instant fusion and some synchros. and that is a need for the deep knowledge of the game
Even to a knowledgeable player the card’s relativity is hit and miss. It's an instant fusion target and that's about the extent of its use. If the card came out during 5ds Era, it would have been decent. But the game was way too fast and past the time where it would have had relevance
I love this because as YGO players we often get ragged on by magic players. I love that this guy is happy and excited to learn and just doesn’t dismiss it
I'm a Magic player and I absolutely despise the structure of Pokémon personally, but I still enjoy watching people play and having fun and will still want to clarify rules to understand what I'm seeing. To be fair, a good play in a card game is entertaining to see no matter what game it is. The player reactions are enough.
I dont rag on Yugioh players, I think yall are crazy. The amount of game knowledge required to even play yugioh somewhat competitively (not even win, just play) is crazy. I will never stop ragging on konami for being awful designers though
@@theolast9727 I wouldn’t exactly say awful designers. Part of Yugioh’s appeal is that it rewards you for creativity, cunning, and resourcefulness. There’s cards that were bottom tier trash when they were released but later had to be banned because of the crazy-ass combos people came up with. Basically, the cards themselves are fine; it’s the players that take advantage of them in ways that, in fairness, Konami never intended or could have predicted.
I almost lost once on master duel for not normal summoning maxx C. I even considered it, did the math, came up short, and thought "guess I better summon a hand trap... but ash has zero attack and psy frame requires a tribute... darn better hope my math is wrong" COMPLETELY FORGETTING MAXX C HAS ATTACK
@@tcoren1 my friend likes playing control decks and often times it’s trap heavy with little to no monsters but sometimes it’s moreso also combo decks in particular zombies and occasionally subterrors (not subterror guru control) that end up doing pretty well similar things anyways. I remember once when he was playing this anti hero trap deck when he knew that I was playing my going 2nd destiny hero deck and he went 1st like always. He dropped quite a few traps that countered my deck heavily. But bcuz he didn’t have any monsters and I had plenty I was able to slowly widdled him down. It was celestial beat down that day. He was pissed at me afterwards.
The only time the attack is relavent is being below 1500 so it’s searchable off of one of the other C cards that you can search in any insect deck (I forget it’s name)
Not only that, I remember having a (rather stupid, if very funny) duel on Master Duel where I had to summon Maxx C to Synchro Summon for 5 with an Ash Blossom I had set earlier to get a beater on the board.
This format is really interesting, especially coming when its someone who is really good at one game, but not the other. Really highlights both some universals across all card games, as well as the individual quirks of the specific ones.
The worst quirk about Yu-Gi-Oh! is Card Errata, and I mean it, they've ruined so many cards by changing what they do. Would never happen with released MTG cards, sure there's exceptions, in MTG but I mean, those exceptions are like 20 years old now, such as making sure that the old artifacts that turned off when they were tapped, still said so on the cards, for when they changed that ruling, that Artifacts were only active when untapped. But that was just adding clarification to cards, that weren't affected by the rule change. But Yu-Gi-Oh! literally turned OP cards into unplayable garbage cards.
@@bbnumber2643 That was a rule change with Companion it's self as a sub system, which somehow they didn't think a card outside that game your opp can't interact with at all was somehow a fair thing. And one of them was three mana and let you use your grave as a hand. >.> Phaseout has also changed, but it was more a buff then anything. No card has just been butchered like how Yugioh card have been.
@@Asmodean1111 Yeah, companion was rules change not oracle change but there are less than 20 years old oracle changed cards in magic as well. Marath from 2013, Hostage Taker from 2017, some phyrexians in CMR from 2020 from top of my head. There are some changes to cards' rules text from time to time and subtype changes happen somewhat frequently.
I love how the MTG pro is able to use general game knowledge of game states, set up strats, from one game, and compare it to a different one. I will say the first two were kind of tricky considering most new players get caught on them too. The usage of those cards are good in theory, but bad in practicality.
@@rokmare For the most part, I would agree, but even Toffel realized in this video that Yugioh seems extremely complicated. And he is right. It is. Which is why gaining new players for the game was extremely hard. I think in practice it will be way easier for a Yugioh player to go to Magic and see some success than the other way around for your average player. Just because Magic rulings are way less obtuse.
To be fair, knowing the average number of turns would have made him call that first card bad as well. That was one of my only pieces of YGO knowledge prior to this video, and I knew he was wrong before it was said because of that specifically. In Magic it's the equivalent of a 6+ cost enchantment with a draw effect with no way to reduce the cost, maybe playable in a long format but absolutely garbage in any faster format like Modern. It's what we call a "do-nothing" card.
@@hi-i-am-atan I do since I don't play Master Duel anymore, but still the players who are familiar to play Endymion would know how a good amount of cards work.
@@ValunarTonix The really funny thing is that Yu-Gi-Oh was released in 1999, right in the thick of MTG's Combo Winter (for an idea of how bad the metagame was, Wizards had just banned a card before it was even for sale,) but for Yu-Gi-Oh's first few sets it was still actually about monster combat and duels lasted more than three turns. So someone could conceivably have switched games to escape the degeneracy of MTG only to have the degeneracy follow shortly behind them.
@@billvolk4236 I wouldn't say it followed *shortly* behind them, Yugioh didn't speed up tremendously until the Arc-V series, with the exception of a couple decks like Katakuri, Infernity, or Dragon Rulers. If they switched over during combo winter then they had a solid 10 years or so of good Yugioh.
yeah, happend to me multiple times on master duel too. Helps you find the last 500 hp missing for lethal. I also like it for synchrons because you can activate it to send it to the graveyard and then bring it back with junk for a lvl 5 synchro play hahahha.
One thing people often forget about Hand traps is that they are also normal cards. You can summon a Max C and attack or link summon if you really need to.
And it was also level 2, on spright deck, if you really got bad hand you can just normal summon it and special summon other spright monsters to do combo
@@Merilirem I've used Ash Blossom as a tuner monster to combo with more times than I'd like to think about. And Maxx "C" being the only commonly played handtrap that can easily be normal summoned and has attack points is...well not usually relevant at all but it's certainly an advantage that it has.
Playing Max "C" in a Synchron deck purely to get a level 2 in the grave is a hilarious play, especially because you don't actually want to draw into your cards since you summon everything from the deck or else they're somewhat bricks.
You forgot to mention how Maxx C can just completely make your opponent pass their turn because they don't want you to draw inf cards because of their combo.
You don't need to combo. This is why I say Yugioh players are dumb. You're going to special summon. Even slow control like sub terrors or true draco special summon. 90% of the time it's better than Pot of Greed. Not saying to unban pot of greed, I'm saying the game is inherently broken
special summoning while your opponent has maxx c is only ever really worth it if you can kill them before they get their turn, cause at that point, they'd have so much advantage you'd instantly lose and if maxx c was unbanned i feel like it would be in basically every deck, and would force the meta to ignore special summons as a whole due to maxx c being a possibility
Shame you didn't mention the Maxx 'C' challenge. I'm sure he'd get a laugh out of hearing there are decks that can reasonably summon enough to deck people after it goes off.
I was also hoping that it would be mentioned. Nowadays it probably isn't as much of a thing because there are a ton more hand traps, but around the time of its initial release, the challenge was real.
Theseus is tough, I think. You need to know a certain amount about yugioh to think it's bad, but not enough to get why it's good, but also not enough about meta trends to get why it's relative power is low. There's a specific range there.
This describes my journey through this card watching this video. I last played ygo in the early 2000's so know basically nothing about where the game has gone since. I see a 5* fusion 2200/1800 and I go..."so what?", then get a little bit of context and think "okay, this could be very good if used well", then hear about the meta and end up back at "why would you run this?" I'm happy that I called prosperity as a must-run card faster than Toffel, though. Digging 6 cards is never not going to be a strong effect even if you can only keep 1 of them.
I will say that the question on whether Maxx C can be used when your opponent is about to Special Summon wasn't answered correctly, since it's context dependent. That would require explaining what an inherent summon is, though, so I understand skipping it.
You can always chain it to someone assembling materials for inherent summons so usually 90% you can pitch Maxx C for at least a 1 for 1. I think that also makes simplifying the answer to that question a better idea too.
I feel like his question was more "can I chain maxx c to opponent about to summon to draw a card" which is indeed something that can be done (not all the time, but it certainly an action that is possible)
I think an example is at least good, something like Cyber Dragon compared to Wandering Gryphon Rider or something. I think you're definitely right that it could have been explained but it would have been really hard to draw parallels
I'd love more than these in the future, loved the first one too. His assessment of gnome material of diluting your deck to not be optimal, should be something that should be taught to so many yugioh players. You can tell he understands card advantage and deck building so well.
I’m a magic player and watched the opposite video for this. Figured I’d check this one out, and I’m so lost. 😂 I was stunned with the “2-3 turns” statement. I heard Yugioh was fast but I didn’t know it was THAT fast.
For future videos: it's better to describe monster summons as land summons in Magic, where you can only put one directly down, but if you have abilities that allow additional ones they're infinitely doable (up to 5 monster zone spaces)
I liked how not only determined that gnomaterial was bad, but also made a statement about how handtraps have to have high impact or not be run, without even playing the game. I don't know magic competitive scene but this guy must be really good lol
Ya its the same as a high level magic player myself (and I used to play yugioh in my opinion the good days (scapegoat format) A lot of decks only draw one card in magic, We already have to play lands which is already a brick at a certain point and drawing one of the effect discard cards late game is a brick..
Not only is the equivalent of a "hand trap" it's own card type in magic but many of them just negate what they react to with varying costs or restrictions so only the most efficient see play. The highest power formats are pretty much balanced by cards that let you prevent any card from coming into play before you've even taken a turn.
9:40 this is amazing, just how quick he picks up on stuff like this, and comes to the conclusion that going second is a natural disadvantage, but that leaves open the requirements for a lot of "Going Second Cards" to be met
Sadly Gnomaterial had it's chance back in 2019, where "The Eternal Format" was heavily defined by it's 1 Card or 1 monster combo... What happened? Called By The Grave...
As someone who stopped playing when synchros came out, I love these kinds of videos since I have just the right amount of knowledge to guess along haha
The biggest thing about prosperity is that it just gets you to side deck cards. Generally your deck will have like 12 starters, but a specific out in the side board is generally only a 3 of.
I love this series I hope you make more of this I love seeing the guys that have such a deep understanding of mtg in the other channel just miss cards and have no idea its so fun to watch
Not only is this a great video, but it also seems like everyone on this channel is effortlessly likeable. It's especially impressive how many Cardmarket regulars manage to be funny and natural, even when often not speaking their first language.
I really appreciate how you enlarged the textbox for Gnomaterial for example, makes it waaay easier to read than in many other staple/stinker vids I've seen :)
I played tournaments around 07, and that old knowledge and hearing a bit about modern yugioh was enough to guess everything except gnomaterial. I was definitely very iffy about the first two, not really knowing how things move in and onto the board now. I somehow assumed that empty boards might be a thing for gnomaterial these days. I felt like I got a freebie, when I saw a card name with "pot" in it, and could just assume everything better is banned by now. Maxx C was the only one where I properly drew from old knowledge of how advantageous special summoning can be, and how card releases likely make them more and more accessible.
Pretty dead on.A problem that he didnt go over with Maxx C is its can be almost useless if you dont survive the round your opponent uses it on so hand traps that just negate your opponents combos outright are geberally more useful or how its actually possible to deck out against certain decks due to how much special summoning they do
I would like and subscribe anything Toffel is in. If that guy sat silently and ate an Apple I would be a fan. He’s a good dude, with a good heart, and SO much passion for what he does. Nothing but love Toffel!
I love these kinds of videos! Seeing someone who's good at another game work through a metagame via individual cards is always really satisfying to watch
great video, i love this series! Though I will say that some of the explanations were long-winded. for example, at 10:50, he was just asking if u could use gnome on a monster before they link it off. a simple "yes" would have been sufficient, he didn't need a whole description of open vs closed gamestates, passing priority and spell speeds that he wont comprehend anyway. (i understand that you need content, but if u want to make a 20+ minute video then maybe just use more cards)
I don't think there's anything wrong with that, it's useful information for viewers that might not be familiar with Yugioh too. And saying that he "won't comprehend it anyway" when Toffel is a pro Magic player with a good base understanding of how priority works in turn based card games is a little insulting.
All of the shit he explained was concepts Toffel deals in constantly as a pro magic player, just because you struggled to follow it doesn't mean he won't comprehend it, the explanation was warranted to explain how opportunities to active cards exist in YGO and while he kinda whiffed mentioning Gnomaterial has a trigger window, it was the less important part to also setting context to the cards going forward(Maxx C woulda required much of this explaining instead if he hadn't)
Oooh what did the algorithm just brought me here? This is very good. It makes me want to see an aftermath where you basically explain to them how certain stuff works after this is recorded, like explaining how Sky Strikers as an archetype work would probably be mind-blowing for them. I don't know Magic that well, but imagine if a monster could just basically switch into a different monster with a different effect at pretty much no cost. Or even just the Maxx-C challenge
I started playing Yugioh back in 2003 or so. Played it for a few years and eventually went onto other things. Watching a video like this makes me think that the game has become waaaaay more complicated and is no longer easy for a new player to pick up and learn
@@PIVfirestarkproducon Ha, I remember Blue Eyes White Dragon being the card that you played to flex on your friends lol Don't even understand the game anymore
I'm a Magic player who hasn't played Yu-Gi-Oh! since 2002. This video was very entertaining, and it was wild to hear how much Yu-Gi-Oh! has sped up these past 20 years.
You know Toffel's a skilled player when he can figure out what's meta after seeing two bad cards. I'm pretty sure most MtG players would understand YGO faster if you just explained it as "basically the Vintage format."
Just explain it like this: "At the competitive level, Magic is just 2 players trying to solve a 4 piece puzzle, in as few moves as possible. Whereas YuGiOh is a 2 piece puzzle, but each piece is a rubrix cube."
Maxx "C" is a really wild card, because when you use it, it's pretty much never going to be anything less than +0 in card advantage. Because, obviously, as long as you know what you're doing, you're going to chain Maxx "C" to a special summon, which guarantees you'll gain a card for paying the cost of discarding Maxx "C." And either your opponent just stops - which is typically the optimal move when someone uses Maxx "C" - or, they keep going and you keep gaining insane amounts of advantage. Everything past that initial +0 is just pure advantage. Your opponent, when they keep going to get to a more defensible position could very well be actively granting their opponent tools to get around the defense they're building. I don't praise Konami for much, but banning Maxx "C" in the TCG is one of the balance decisions I stand by and will defend.
@@MABfan11 Well, yes, but the number of decks that are able to do this, while also potentially supplying their opponent with a bunch of interruptions has become a lot smaller recently, especially because of said interruptions. Back in the day, Maxx "C" challenge was actually easier. Yeah, we had Veiler back then, but these days we also have Droll, which wasn't played nearly as often before, and we have the ghost girls which does change the situation. I would say about 99.9% of the time, it would be more advisable to not even attempt the Maxx "C" challenge.
@@MABfan11 very few decks can do that. Off the top of my head, the ones I can think of are full power zoodiac, flower cardian, and maybe infernity. There is also trickstar however that can kill you for using Maxx C. Still a stupid card and I am absolutely glad I don't have to deal with it in the TCG.
@@danieltaylor4185 many deck in ocg aren't bothered by it too much like dinomorphia, flundereeze, rhongominiad or even labyrinth. Now we need to hit sprite.
I could, honest to God, watch this type of video everyday. Love staple or stinker, specially if the one that's trying to guess plays another TCG. Please do more!
Sea Monster of Theseus was only considered "good" in the understanding of Instant Fusion (and now Ready Fusion) and the fact that it is itself a Tuner. Not giving him a context ahead of time makes this kind of sloppy. The only reason Konami thought it was good was because its a 5 star Tuner helping get higher star level Synchro's easier, but it turned out that isn't very important. Ready Fusion exists now so you actually have 4 copies of cards to get this out easy. Instant Fusion being limited to 1 means literally nothing in this instance.
It’s also a Zombie which has multiple ways to recur it for use later down the line. I’m sure being Water is a plus in some way. It’s just a shame despite all the pros it does have, the cons just negate them.
Got dang having a pro player talk about this is amazing the intuitively understood turn advantage without knowing the steps that were taken to mitigate that and he understands ratios and statistical analysis loving it. Also he understood the need to feel like you know more flame war.
I have said it before, and I'll say it again. YuGiOh is extreamly hard to judge based on individual cards. Any strong card can be strong purely because another exists, and a card can be weak purely based on the cards it's used with. Still fun to see people try, but hardly any YuGiOh card is the same power level in a vacume as it is in the normal game
I agree. Meta knowledge is a much greater part of a card's strength in yugioh compared to the other TCGs. The explanations for Yugioh cards usually need a small meta breakdown to clarify why they're good/bad.
@@indigo1296 yeah. because YGO is pretty much an archetype game where the strength of cards are entirely dependent on what deck enables them. This is why most YGO games are boring since you know whats gonna happen between the same metadecks from turn 1 to 3. Too bad the power creep got too much. YGO was once a deck builders dream game. But now, if you dont build the meta decks and have no prior knowledge of paragraphs of text in each meta card, you have no chance of winning when you go to a local game store to play.
As someone who plays the big 3 card games on a casual level its always fun to compare cardpower and ressource effect weightings eg, draw cards, magic you can tutor and draw for some mana or hitpoints with price and scope depending on color. Pokemon you get to just draw a ton of cards with supporters or pokemon abilities and tutor a ton with item cards and abilities it is fine. but in Yugioh you can in (most) archetypes tutor to your hearts content, but blind drawing from deck costs you two fifth of your extradeck, or one fourth of your maindeck or very specific cards in hand/field to pay the cost for a 1 for 1 or 2 for 2 card draw.
What's funny is that losing the extra deck and one 4th of your main deck are still kinda unhealthy for the game. Those cards tend to have a huge impact when they resolve, and arguably should be hit on the list.
I am a MtG player with a small to moderate amount of yugioh knowledge through memes, videos like this, and friends. I got Sea Monster badly wrong because I knew instant fusion and how synchros work, but not the current state of the game or that instant fusion was limited. I also assumed there was some future fusion style benefit that you could get by dumping any two tuners into the graveyard or super poly to steal an opponents tuner. Got the rest right at least.
@@acetraker1988 any normal yugioh player doesnt run any of those, and anyways the only way maxx c does anything in a maxx c challenge is getting lucky and drawing the hand trap get out of jail card. plus some decks can just force a deck out if they arent stopped in time
It's always interesting hearing a completely fresh look at cards. Yugioh is such a complicated and unusual card game that a lot of the usual logic doesn't NECESSARILY apply very easily. To Toffel's credit, he adapted very quickly once he started getting hints about just how fast the meta is. Very interesting watch.
Didn't clarify a few things for Maxx "C" that I wish you would have. Maxx "C", when used on your opponent's turn, forces your opponent to think about their plays. Whatever strategy they had in mind, they immediately have to second guess every special summon from that point forward. The opponent can absolutely try to power through it and keep summoning and hope they win that turn and don't have to deal with all the drawn cards next turn, but they risk also being shut down by newly drawn hand traps. Also, in regards to the TCG and OCG banlists. The reasoning behind the ban differences is because of the overall playstyles between the 2 game environments in addition to the card pools. TCG players as a whole will typically play a much more disruptive playstyle where they constantly work toward shutting down all potential plays of their opponent, lots of negation, returning to the deck/hand, etc. OCG players, in contrast, typically play with the idea of mitigating your opponent's actions after they do them. A TCG player will negate your summon to prevent you from using that monster, where an OCG player will allow the summon but prevent the incoming attack and then deal with the monster on their turn. That's why the TCG is generally much more liberal in its handling of bans when it comes to negation and hand traps than the OCG, because they're just not as big of an issue in the OCG.
One thing that wasn't mentioned about Maxx C is that it effectively blocks special summoning for that turn. If it's used, you only have two options: stop(which leaves the advantage to yout opponent) or continue(which means your opponent keeps drawing cards). Either way, it's a lose-lose situation.
@@Noah-hz9cx Eldlich is kinda immune to it since they usually just special summon once or twice per turn anyways, but these were 3 full on floodgate decks in a row. In short, you're either f*cked by cockroaches or you fight the poison with a more toxic kind of poison.
@@sekaihunter9378 "Kinda imune" "special summon once or twice"... Even if you special summon once it is basically a upstart goblin without the 1000 LP, if you special twice then it is a pot of greed.
I got 2 out of 5. One question I have: I see that Maxx "C" has the "the above text is unofficial and describes the card's functionality in the OCG." - What does that mean for the game? I know the TCG and OCG have separate ban lists, but are the effects of some cards different between the formats? Just something decorative added for the reprint BECAUSE of the different banlists? Something else?
From what I can see the card was printed 3 times in Japan and 2 in the west. Basically every once in a while they change the text of the card even if it functions in the same way (and sometimes they outright change the way the card is working, but that's not the case here). So that text means that this is a translation of the 3rd Japanese printing (errata). The official western text is from the 2nd printing of the card. Long story short I think in the 3rd printing they just replaced "During either player's turn" with "Quick Effect".
Im pretty sure they just used a picture of the card from like a decade ago before it was released officially in the TCG. The effects are always the same between OCG/TCG
It is an easy to make oversight by the editor. They took the fan translation of the card when it was first printed in Japanese rather than an English scan. They did a great job with the video regardless. Some Japanese cards work differently than English cards due to different rulings from judges, but those are rare and usually quickly rectified.
Heya! So because there's no official database for high quality card art, it can sometimes result in things like this where the assets provided have strange stuff on them like this, in this case an old mock up of the card prior to its official PSCT. The text is of course official, slight oversight on my part, should've caught it when reviewing the edit!
Max C is such a weird card. It’s probably the biggest difference between the two main formats and it’s arguably not OP because it prevents combo decks from taking 10 minute turns. However, it’s also really dumb that it is usable in response to a summon to go neutral. It quite literally warps the game around it and heavily favors control decks and slower games. How ever, it’s also great in combo decks (or decks like Beetroopers as they can search it during their combos) as it means in combo vs combo they get so much gas. As much as I hate erratas, I’d change it from the second special summon onward. While it effectively would stop your opponent from playing, they could force you to go -1, which would give the cars any amount of drawback
It favoring control decks being the biggest reason the banlist divide even exist. OCG players favor control/slow games over combo while TCG players favor combo over control. Kinda what makes any Worlds tournament so alien for all since it uses lowest allowable from both lists. Though i guess thats what makes Worlds the most balanced list.
@@random_void._ another answer is to delay the advantage. So if you made it so the cards couldn’t be activated until the end of your opponent’s next turn, it means your hand could be filled with cards you can’t use. While plenty of cards have fantastic GY effects (if your opponent gives you 10 cards you will have to discard), advantage isn’t as strong if it can’t be utilized immediately.
Maxx c feels a lot like force of will in that it’s a powerful cost less response to your opponent that kinda defines the meta of the environment just by the threat of it existing.
Theseus was a tricky card for sure. In the context of meta decks or high level play, yeah it probably rarely saw play. But in rogue decks, banlists aside (since this card would enable halq+linkross plays), it has been a major combo enabler for some decks, particularly decks that use the lonefire+predaplant package. Considering hand traps, ban list transience, and level of play, and a combo piece, AKA context, I thought he did a pretty decent job of analysing it. A dumb idea for one of these types of videos is to have all the cards to be analysed be a part of a single combo. What order the cards are revealed could be mixed up.
Check out these absolute powerhouse staples and dirty stinkers here: bit.ly/3Qd2atV
Max C is so Toxic . You either dick deep and give your opponent to much plus or you Stop . ( What many Players wont do , because they want their Board ready regardless ) .
The Frist 1 can be used for a monster
It's spelled as x-ze
Ngl the dude on the right was kinda bad at explaining
And he seems weirdly passive aggressive
Magic Player: "Supply Squad feels nuts"
Yugioh Player: "It's bold of you to assume that you will get another turn if you fail to win during yours. A rookie mistake."
I mean there is pretty much the same effect in magic on multiple cards, and while they see some play not many were ever considered staples outside of specific decks. Magics version is often even more powerful since they trigger no matter what kills your monster. But since they also often cost 3 or 4 mana so they only come out when the game is only lasting 1 or 2 turns longer and are thus severly limited.
Tbf. As an old player...I like supply squad
after playing a bit of Master Duel after not having played since the early days of Synchros, I realized something very interesting:
Drawing effects are OP because you AT MOST get 3 regular draws, and that's if the game lasts a long time.
Usually, you only get one regular draw.
@@Nerobyrne I found it that Backup Squad is just a superior card to Supply Squad, honestly. It can lead you to up to 7 draws if things go your way and your opponent fails to finish you off which, combined with Maxx C can lead to a ridiculous card advantage
@@Sol0666 it really emphasises that mana costs are one of the defining features of Magic. That little cost can tell you straight away if something is supposed to be an early, mid or late game play, or something you cheat out as a win condition. In YGO, you don't have that luxury, and that's before you even start to discover just how ludicrously fast YGO is a game.
I love that you're getting guests that can really flex their knowledge here. Seeing people correctly identify concepts and piece things together is a treat. I like how Toffel pretty much instantly put together exactly how hand traps work and why they would be good, and understood the concepts behind Prosperity instantly as well.
Because instants in magic work more similar to a hand trap then a quick play, the closest thing would traps that can be used from hand. There is honestly very little difference between hand traps in yugioh and instants or cards with flash in magic heck magic even has quick play effects equivalents
@@rosewarrior706 Which is why these are good guests. Most people who do this sort of content get people who go "fat number big must be good" or who can't see the comparisons between card games.
"2 stars, 500/200 ATK/DEF; I'm just going to assume these numbers don't mean anything" is such a huge flex coming from someone that isn't familiar with how Yugioh works.
"I'm guessing Tuners are easy to summon and are pretty weak" is terrifyingly spot on to someone how has never played the game before.
It's interesting but essentially the closest comparison in magic would be the card "force of will" which is an instant you can play for free from hand by discarding another card and taking negligible damage, in order to "negate" the casting of a spell (which is the term of playing any non land card). Even though force 2 for 1s YOU it is still the strongest piece of counter magic ever printed because it requires no on board resource which means a) you can use it going second on your opponents turn 1, b) in formats where it is legal untill they can prove otherwise opponents need to play around the chance that you might be playing this card and have it in your hand and c) you can spend all your on board resources and still interact with your opponent on their turn.
Magic has plenty of other instants and instant speed cards that you can activate from hand on your opponents turn but most (not all) require some sort of on board resources, usually mana. When interaction can be cast without mana it is typically somewhere between "useful in niche situations" and "overwhelmingly good" so hand traps are ALWAYS going to seem good to magic players.
If you gave him 5 more he would get at least 4 right, this dude grasped all the YGO key points REALLY quickly. Im amazed.
Toffel is a great guy and super aware and intuitive when it comes to TCG game-state stuff. He is legitimately a professional player.
Pleasure to work with him as well!
@@CardmarketYGO Oh I can definitely see that.
I think about a few guesses in he realized, oh, this is legacy, we're playing legacy.
(Because magic is a much more complex game and this dude is an amazing magic player)
Thing is that all games consist of three elements - Resources, skill and luck. When you remove the skill part (since we're stripping out the gamestate entirely) all that's left is reducing luck (drawing, tutoring) and resources used vs effect.
The hardest things to evaluate are the regular, boring monsters, because their benefit is meta and deck dependent. But raw draw power, free counters and tutor effects are obviously busted.
My favorite yugioh fact is that Konami said "Sea Monster of Thesus is the most insane card we've ever printed" THE SAME YEAR ZOODIACS WERE RELEASED
exactly lmao
Zoodiac, Ash Blossom, Master Peace and original text Firewall Dragon all came out in 2017
@@jakecardwell74 but that sea monster of Thesus. That's the money card
2017 was one of the craziest year for Yugioh cards, and Konami said that a Vanilla Fusion was going to be the greatest card of the year
What's so good about Zoodiacs? I haven't played YuGiOh since I was a freshman in highschool
I think Sea Monster of Theseus was a terrible pick for this, because it requires _relatively_ deep game knowledge of how synchros and fusions work before one can even judge it at all.
Otherwise I love this series, please keep it up. I'd love to see more.
Yeah, I agree. To think it's good, you need to know about tuners, fusions, and how instant fusion works. You'd have to be in this weird state of knowing a lot about Yu-gi-oh mechanically but nothing metawise.
dpe would have been better or beetrooper hercules fusion
@@Dori_Dorifto I wanna see a magic players response to terraforming
@@rosewarrior706 to imperial order lol
"Let your rage fuel the comments!"
Its always refreshing to see a player that is not familiar with the game make an assessment whether cards or good or not. Especially if its coming from someone who is good at another card game.
Keep up the great work, hope we see a part 3 next
I agree we need more of this type of video
Another thing to note about Pot of Prosperity is that for a lot of decks blocking draw effects doesn't actually mean anything. This is because effects that add cards to your hand are not draw effects unless they specifically say the word "draw". So a searcher that grabs a specific card is totally fine to use after Prosperity, because while all draw effects add cards to hand, not all effects that add cards to hand are draw effects.
_cries in Hyper Librarian_
yep, was just about to write the same thing.
Magic is similar. There effects that do that but don’t say “draw” so they can get around restrictions your opponents might have
definitely - same as difference between not targetable and then Madolche Tiramisu "choose"
Additionally, some decks just don't care about the extra deck and just put "whatever" in it. Then you get a cost of practically zero.
Theseus was like a trick question within a trick question. Should have asked about instant fusion first
I am almost 100% sure he knew that, that was the whole, people are going to argue in the comments bit
@@magneto1992 I'm not saying this is news to him.
That would have been interesting. Question 1 is instant fusion and then question 2 or 3 is Theseus.
@Jake Folk when halq was legal it was funny. I like instsnt and ready fusion and think this card has its niche
This dude is smart. No wonder he’s a great player. He asked all the right questions and was able to analyze the effects very quickly. I’m sure he would’ve gotten them all right if he had asked all of the questions about the game, deck size, how many turns each game usually is etc. at the beginning 😂 awesome to see someone actually thinking these days lol
2 star, 500 attack, I don't think yugioh players actually care about these numbers
He catches on quick >_
As somebody who went the other way, I imagine it’s much easier to do it how I did rather than learning Yugioh (especially modern Yugioh) as a magic player. I truly believe more meta knowledge is required to play a Yugioh locals than a large vintage event. Yugioh concepts translate better to magic than vice versa in most cases. I actually made some rather successful magic decks using little more than the knowledge I accrued rogue deckbuilding in Yugioh. Then again this was back in the early 2010s, and the games have both changed significantly since then. Still, if you approach both games with a similar mindset, you’ll definitely be better off than your average new player of either game.
The types of questions he was asking show how great at card games he is. His breakdown of Gnomaterial blind not even knowing the rules was astonishing
"Sounds very action heavy and comlicated game"
I love how with this brief interaction, he was able to describe the current state of yugioh perfectly LOL
I've always explained Pot of Prosperity as "Draw 6 cards, put 5 of them on the bottom of your deck" and people get how strong it is pretty quickly
Draw 6 cards, put 5 of them on the bottom of your deck, after removing a third of your toolbox from the game and not being able to draw more cards this turn (which, granted for many decks, neither of these are significant costs)
@@treyatkins4660 Given you get to choose which third of the toolbox you're removing, and given that "draw more cards" is a surprisingly nebulous term, it's nowhere near as bad as that implies.
@@misirtere9836 I have been out of the game for a couple of years, I honestly didn't know you got to choose the six. That definately changes things! There is almost always 6 cards that I will never use in a given matchup
@@treyatkins4660 You were probably thinking of Pot of Extravagance, which ACTUALLY doesn't let you choose. It just draws 2 cards though.
@@misirtere9836 I have actually not hear of either card. The goto Pot in my last meta was Duality, and the one that banishes...10(?) cards from the top of your library had just released (unless that IS Extravagance and I just didn't know it by name)
That sea monster of Theseus is a brutal pick even if you know the synchros and fusion since that card always with 2 other card being instant fusion and some synchros. and that is a need for the deep knowledge of the game
It also was not a bad card to have since you could summon with instant fusion and then go into a halqifibrax if you have another monster
Even to a knowledgeable player the card’s relativity is hit and miss. It's an instant fusion target and that's about the extent of its use. If the card came out during 5ds Era, it would have been decent. But the game was way too fast and past the time where it would have had relevance
@Jake Folk it's specifically used as an extender, not a beatstick
I love this because as YGO players we often get ragged on by magic players. I love that this guy is happy and excited to learn and just doesn’t dismiss it
I'm a Magic player and I absolutely despise the structure of Pokémon personally, but I still enjoy watching people play and having fun and will still want to clarify rules to understand what I'm seeing.
To be fair, a good play in a card game is entertaining to see no matter what game it is. The player reactions are enough.
We secretly still rag on Yugioh players. I mean, everyone does
I dont rag on Yugioh players, I think yall are crazy. The amount of game knowledge required to even play yugioh somewhat competitively (not even win, just play) is crazy.
I will never stop ragging on konami for being awful designers though
@@theolast9727 I wouldn’t exactly say awful designers. Part of Yugioh’s appeal is that it rewards you for creativity, cunning, and resourcefulness. There’s cards that were bottom tier trash when they were released but later had to be banned because of the crazy-ass combos people came up with. Basically, the cards themselves are fine; it’s the players that take advantage of them in ways that, in fairness, Konami never intended or could have predicted.
“500/200 I assume that doesn’t mean anything.” I agree 99% B U T I’ve had to do Max C beat down more time than I’d like.
I almost lost once on master duel for not normal summoning maxx C. I even considered it, did the math, came up short, and thought "guess I better summon a hand trap... but ash has zero attack and psy frame requires a tribute... darn better hope my math is wrong" COMPLETELY FORGETTING MAXX C HAS ATTACK
@@tcoren1 my friend likes playing control decks and often times it’s trap heavy with little to no monsters but sometimes it’s moreso also combo decks in particular zombies and occasionally subterrors (not subterror guru control) that end up doing pretty well similar things anyways. I remember once when he was playing this anti hero trap deck when he knew that I was playing my going 2nd destiny hero deck and he went 1st like always. He dropped quite a few traps that countered my deck heavily. But bcuz he didn’t have any monsters and I had plenty I was able to slowly widdled him down. It was celestial beat down that day. He was pissed at me afterwards.
The only time the attack is relavent is being below 1500 so it’s searchable off of one of the other C cards that you can search in any insect deck (I forget it’s name)
Not only that, I remember having a (rather stupid, if very funny) duel on Master Duel where I had to summon Maxx C to Synchro Summon for 5 with an Ash Blossom I had set earlier to get a beater on the board.
I killed someone with Maxx C yesterday due to him having magic cylinder and me having 800 LP.
This format is really interesting, especially coming when its someone who is really good at one game, but not the other. Really highlights both some universals across all card games, as well as the individual quirks of the specific ones.
The worst quirk about Yu-Gi-Oh! is Card Errata, and I mean it, they've ruined so many cards by changing what they do. Would never happen with released MTG cards, sure there's exceptions, in MTG but I mean, those exceptions are like 20 years old now, such as making sure that the old artifacts that turned off when they were tapped, still said so on the cards, for when they changed that ruling, that Artifacts were only active when untapped. But that was just adding clarification to cards, that weren't affected by the rule change. But Yu-Gi-Oh! literally turned OP cards into unplayable garbage cards.
@@livedandletdie MTG did the same thing with companion tbf
@@bbnumber2643 That was a rule change with Companion it's self as a sub system, which somehow they didn't think a card outside that game your opp can't interact with at all was somehow a fair thing. And one of them was three mana and let you use your grave as a hand. >.> Phaseout has also changed, but it was more a buff then anything. No card has just been butchered like how Yugioh card have been.
@@Asmodean1111 Yeah, companion was rules change not oracle change but there are less than 20 years old oracle changed cards in magic as well. Marath from 2013, Hostage Taker from 2017, some phyrexians in CMR from 2020 from top of my head. There are some changes to cards' rules text from time to time and subtype changes happen somewhat frequently.
@@livedandletdie and they need to do it to many more of them.
The ban list should be the last resort.
I love how the MTG pro is able to use general game knowledge of game states, set up strats, from one game, and compare it to a different one. I will say the first two were kind of tricky considering most new players get caught on them too. The usage of those cards are good in theory, but bad in practicality.
Give an archetype and explanation how they work like madan/magibullet/musketeers relying on snowball strategy through a huge tempo swing.
Almost all card game borrow something from magic so if you played magic picking up any other card game shouldn't be a problem
@@rokmare you would have a lot of trouble understanding Yugioh if you only played the Standard format, though
@@rokmare For the most part, I would agree, but even Toffel realized in this video that Yugioh seems extremely complicated. And he is right. It is. Which is why gaining new players for the game was extremely hard. I think in practice it will be way easier for a Yugioh player to go to Magic and see some success than the other way around for your average player. Just because Magic rulings are way less obtuse.
To be fair, knowing the average number of turns would have made him call that first card bad as well. That was one of my only pieces of YGO knowledge prior to this video, and I knew he was wrong before it was said because of that specifically.
In Magic it's the equivalent of a 6+ cost enchantment with a draw effect with no way to reduce the cost, maybe playable in a long format but absolutely garbage in any faster format like Modern. It's what we call a "do-nothing" card.
Props to the MTG player for reading his cards (unlike Yu-Gi-Oh players lmfaooo). Loved hearing his reasoning.
if you were playing Endymion you wouldn't read your cards either
@@misirtere9836 I mean, for players who play the deck often have to read it, but for playing the deck the first time I agree with you.
@@misirtere9836 not excluding myself from the not reading cards group 🤣
@@duelmasteryuya1205 i feel like you massively overestimate the amount of pend players that know endymion floats
@@hi-i-am-atan I do since I don't play Master Duel anymore, but still the players who are familiar to play Endymion would know how a good amount of cards work.
Yu-Gi-Oh is like an alternate timeline where Combo Winter never ended.
Combo Century.
Can we go back to the original timeline please? I'm sick of combo century.
@@ValunarTonix The really funny thing is that Yu-Gi-Oh was released in 1999, right in the thick of MTG's Combo Winter (for an idea of how bad the metagame was, Wizards had just banned a card before it was even for sale,) but for Yu-Gi-Oh's first few sets it was still actually about monster combat and duels lasted more than three turns. So someone could conceivably have switched games to escape the degeneracy of MTG only to have the degeneracy follow shortly behind them.
@@billvolk4236 I wouldn't say it followed *shortly* behind them, Yugioh didn't speed up tremendously until the Arc-V series, with the exception of a couple decks like Katakuri, Infernity, or Dragon Rulers. If they switched over during combo winter then they had a solid 10 years or so of good Yugioh.
Lmao
i absolutely love this series, cant wait for part 3
I once attacked for game in Masterduel using Maxx C and it was an amazing feeling lmao Like i forgot it was technically a monster with attack points
yeah, happend to me multiple times on master duel too. Helps you find the last 500 hp missing for lethal. I also like it for synchrons because you can activate it to send it to the graveyard and then bring it back with junk for a lvl 5 synchro play hahahha.
One thing people often forget about Hand traps is that they are also normal cards. You can summon a Max C and attack or link summon if you really need to.
And it was also level 2, on spright deck, if you really got bad hand you can just normal summon it and special summon other spright monsters to do combo
@@Merilirem I've used Ash Blossom as a tuner monster to combo with more times than I'd like to think about. And Maxx "C" being the only commonly played handtrap that can easily be normal summoned and has attack points is...well not usually relevant at all but it's certainly an advantage that it has.
Playing Max "C" in a Synchron deck purely to get a level 2 in the grave is a hilarious play, especially because you don't actually want to draw into your cards since you summon everything from the deck or else they're somewhat bricks.
You forgot to mention how Maxx C can just completely make your opponent pass their turn because they don't want you to draw inf cards because of their combo.
You don't need to combo. This is why I say Yugioh players are dumb. You're going to special summon. Even slow control like sub terrors or true draco special summon. 90% of the time it's better than Pot of Greed. Not saying to unban pot of greed, I'm saying the game is inherently broken
I was about to comment on the sheer...sort of intimidation factor of Maxx "C", the way it makes people say "Is this summon worth it?" is amazing
@@pinkdelicious655 except in the current state of the game where Floow exists
special summoning while your opponent has maxx c is only ever really worth it if you can kill them before they get their turn, cause at that point, they'd have so much advantage you'd instantly lose
and if maxx c was unbanned i feel like it would be in basically every deck, and would force the meta to ignore special summons as a whole due to maxx c being a possibility
@@fortnitesexman I don't know, in master duel it was unbanned and everyone kept special summoning anyways
Shame you didn't mention the Maxx 'C' challenge. I'm sure he'd get a laugh out of hearing there are decks that can reasonably summon enough to deck people after it goes off.
I was also hoping that it would be mentioned. Nowadays it probably isn't as much of a thing because there are a ton more hand traps, but around the time of its initial release, the challenge was real.
"Six Samurai nods emphatically"
Theseus is tough, I think. You need to know a certain amount about yugioh to think it's bad, but not enough to get why it's good, but also not enough about meta trends to get why it's relative power is low. There's a specific range there.
@Jake Folk needlefiber
This describes my journey through this card watching this video. I last played ygo in the early 2000's so know basically nothing about where the game has gone since. I see a 5* fusion 2200/1800 and I go..."so what?", then get a little bit of context and think "okay, this could be very good if used well", then hear about the meta and end up back at "why would you run this?"
I'm happy that I called prosperity as a must-run card faster than Toffel, though. Digging 6 cards is never not going to be a strong effect even if you can only keep 1 of them.
@Jake Folk Name a better level 5 vanilla tuner fusion monster then
I will say that the question on whether Maxx C can be used when your opponent is about to Special Summon wasn't answered correctly, since it's context dependent. That would require explaining what an inherent summon is, though, so I understand skipping it.
You can always chain it to someone assembling materials for inherent summons so usually 90% you can pitch Maxx C for at least a 1 for 1. I think that also makes simplifying the answer to that question a better idea too.
I feel like his question was more "can I chain maxx c to opponent about to summon to draw a card" which is indeed something that can be done (not all the time, but it certainly an action that is possible)
I think an example is at least good, something like Cyber Dragon compared to Wandering Gryphon Rider or something. I think you're definitely right that it could have been explained but it would have been really hard to draw parallels
love love love how toffel is grasping the concepts and is actively trying to understand parts of the game. very wholesome, 10/10
I'd love more than these in the future, loved the first one too.
His assessment of gnome material of diluting your deck to not be optimal, should be something that should be taught to so many yugioh players. You can tell he understands card advantage and deck building so well.
I’m a magic player and watched the opposite video for this. Figured I’d check this one out, and I’m so lost. 😂 I was stunned with the “2-3 turns” statement. I heard Yugioh was fast but I didn’t know it was THAT fast.
I feel a need to tell you that this isn't counting turns like in magic. Turn 1 is your turn, turn 2 is your opponents, turn 3 is yours.
@@littlemisspipebomb4723 wow what a horrible game
@@danieldelaney1377 1🙄
It’s funny because when the game is being played out, it feels much much longer
I love how quickly he realized one of the biggest reasons maxx c is so good, that being that you can draw into interruption
For future videos: it's better to describe monster summons as land summons in Magic, where you can only put one directly down, but if you have abilities that allow additional ones they're infinitely doable (up to 5 monster zone spaces)
I love this series, it's interesting to hear the reasoning and thinking of someone well versed in card games but no experience with yu-gi-oh
I liked how not only determined that gnomaterial was bad, but also made a statement about how handtraps have to have high impact or not be run, without even playing the game. I don't know magic competitive scene but this guy must be really good lol
Ya its the same as a high level magic player myself (and I used to play yugioh in my opinion the good days (scapegoat format)
A lot of decks only draw one card in magic,
We already have to play lands which is already a brick at a certain point and drawing one of the effect discard cards late game is a brick..
@Jake Folk "cards the require specific conditions are useless" You do know what a sideboard is?
Not only is the equivalent of a "hand trap" it's own card type in magic but many of them just negate what they react to with varying costs or restrictions so only the most efficient see play. The highest power formats are pretty much balanced by cards that let you prevent any card from coming into play before you've even taken a turn.
Hand traps are more of a thing in magic and higher impact, they're like straight up omnis
9:40 this is amazing, just how quick he picks up on stuff like this, and comes to the conclusion that going second is a natural disadvantage, but that leaves open the requirements for a lot of "Going Second Cards" to be met
Sadly Gnomaterial had it's chance back in 2019, where "The Eternal Format" was heavily defined by it's 1 Card or 1 monster combo...
What happened? Called By The Grave...
Toffel grasped the meta better and better with each card, that's actually impressive
This has got to be my favorite video of this. Toffel locking down concepts and showing off his knowledge!
Its dope to see Daniel Radcliffe show off some very fun cards to Toffel. :>
Was gonna say the same thing!
That's Full fat videos
12:31 PINK FRAME AGHHH, also nice video, love the pro player, actually asked good questions and such, and yall explained the cards really well.
love these vids its so interesting to see someone who doesn't know yugioh try and understand the game
As someone who stopped playing when synchros came out, I love these kinds of videos since I have just the right amount of knowledge to guess along haha
The biggest thing about prosperity is that it just gets you to side deck cards. Generally your deck will have like 12 starters, but a specific out in the side board is generally only a 3 of.
I love these style of videos, it's especially cool to see how quickly he applied knowledge he got to the next card you showed him.
one of the best series definitely
I love this series I hope you make more of this I love seeing the guys that have such a deep understanding of mtg in the other channel just miss cards and have no idea its so fun to watch
6:10 I cannot believe you didn't tell him about it's interactions with Instant Fusion and Super Poly at least
7:10 good man
To be fair, he tried, the other guy didnt allow him
it was a really bad card to show in a show like this
@@ogeid772 Yes the comment is timestamped literal moments before that very remark
@Jake Folk You missed the point
The thing with prosperity is that you don't draw that much in YGO, but you do search your deck a lot. And prosperity doesn't stop you from searching.
This series is so fun, I love it! Keep up the great work!
I could spend an entire day watching different "X player guesses power level of Y cards"
Bring Toffel more often! What a lovely chap
Good job for the editor to fit in the card on the corner of the screen because there isn't a lot of space on the screen.
Not only is this a great video, but it also seems like everyone on this channel is effortlessly likeable.
It's especially impressive how many Cardmarket regulars manage to be funny and natural, even when often not speaking their first language.
If you're able to make jokes and speak casually in another language it doesn't seem so magical
I really appreciate how you enlarged the textbox for Gnomaterial for example, makes it waaay easier to read than in many other staple/stinker vids I've seen :)
You can judge how good any card is by how hard they slap you if you try and take it out of the sleeve.
I appreciate that in your explanation of the extra deck you made no mention of Pendulums. No need to break the poor man's brain.
Pendulums are in a very weird spot and interact with the extra deck less now
Plus it would suck to explain link arrows
If we get another one of these, gem knight garnet would be the meanest card to pick especially without the context of brilliant fusion
I played tournaments around 07, and that old knowledge and hearing a bit about modern yugioh was enough to guess everything except gnomaterial.
I was definitely very iffy about the first two, not really knowing how things move in and onto the board now.
I somehow assumed that empty boards might be a thing for gnomaterial these days.
I felt like I got a freebie, when I saw a card name with "pot" in it, and could just assume everything better is banned by now.
Maxx C was the only one where I properly drew from old knowledge of how advantageous special summoning can be, and how card releases likely make them more and more accessible.
Pretty dead on.A problem that he didnt go over with Maxx C is its can be almost useless if you dont survive the round your opponent uses it on so hand traps that just negate your opponents combos outright are geberally more useful or how its actually possible to deck out against certain decks due to how much special summoning they do
I think Sea Monster was an unfair option to throw in
I would like and subscribe anything Toffel is in. If that guy sat silently and ate an Apple I would be a fan. He’s a good dude, with a good heart, and SO much passion for what he does. Nothing but love Toffel!
"Why would you chose 6 if you can choose 3?" Sometimes one gets desperate ;-;
Love this series, would be excited for more episodes! Maybe even longer ones with more cards each lol.
whenever i try to explain the extra deck to a magic player i relate it somewhat to the commander zone
I love these kinds of videos! Seeing someone who's good at another game work through a metagame via individual cards is always really satisfying to watch
great video, i love this series! Though I will say that some of the explanations were long-winded. for example, at 10:50, he was just asking if u could use gnome on a monster before they link it off. a simple "yes" would have been sufficient, he didn't need a whole description of open vs closed gamestates, passing priority and spell speeds that he wont comprehend anyway. (i understand that you need content, but if u want to make a 20+ minute video then maybe just use more cards)
A simple yes might be misleading about being able to chain it to target a material.
Well, some of this terms are actually magic terms, so he said them to make him understand the situation better.
It's basically a "Yes, but..."
It is trigger effect if anyone read, so it cannot be triggered if there is no trigger
I don't think there's anything wrong with that, it's useful information for viewers that might not be familiar with Yugioh too. And saying that he "won't comprehend it anyway" when Toffel is a pro Magic player with a good base understanding of how priority works in turn based card games is a little insulting.
All of the shit he explained was concepts Toffel deals in constantly as a pro magic player, just because you struggled to follow it doesn't mean he won't comprehend it, the explanation was warranted to explain how opportunities to active cards exist in YGO and while he kinda whiffed mentioning Gnomaterial has a trigger window, it was the less important part to also setting context to the cards going forward(Maxx C woulda required much of this explaining instead if he hadn't)
Oooh what did the algorithm just brought me here?
This is very good. It makes me want to see an aftermath where you basically explain to them how certain stuff works after this is recorded, like explaining how Sky Strikers as an archetype work would probably be mind-blowing for them. I don't know Magic that well, but imagine if a monster could just basically switch into a different monster with a different effect at pretty much no cost. Or even just the Maxx-C challenge
I started playing Yugioh back in 2003 or so. Played it for a few years and eventually went onto other things. Watching a video like this makes me think that the game has become waaaaay more complicated and is no longer easy for a new player to pick up and learn
I miss when I was a kid and the entire goal was to just summon dark magician girl because she was cute
@@PIVfirestarkproducon Ha, I remember Blue Eyes White Dragon being the card that you played to flex on your friends lol Don't even understand the game anymore
I'm a Magic player who hasn't played Yu-Gi-Oh! since 2002. This video was very entertaining, and it was wild to hear how much Yu-Gi-Oh! has sped up these past 20 years.
You know Toffel's a skilled player when he can figure out what's meta after seeing two bad cards.
I'm pretty sure most MtG players would understand YGO faster if you just explained it as "basically the Vintage format."
Just explain it like this:
"At the competitive level, Magic is just 2 players trying to solve a 4 piece puzzle, in as few moves as possible. Whereas YuGiOh is a 2 piece puzzle, but each piece is a rubrix cube."
@@tokeivo A rubix cube is too simple. It's more like tax law or quantum field equations.
You should make a pro YGO player gueds the power of Magic Cards next!
Maxx "C" is a really wild card, because when you use it, it's pretty much never going to be anything less than +0 in card advantage. Because, obviously, as long as you know what you're doing, you're going to chain Maxx "C" to a special summon, which guarantees you'll gain a card for paying the cost of discarding Maxx "C." And either your opponent just stops - which is typically the optimal move when someone uses Maxx "C" - or, they keep going and you keep gaining insane amounts of advantage. Everything past that initial +0 is just pure advantage. Your opponent, when they keep going to get to a more defensible position could very well be actively granting their opponent tools to get around the defense they're building.
I don't praise Konami for much, but banning Maxx "C" in the TCG is one of the balance decisions I stand by and will defend.
or they keep going for even longer and make you deck out
@@MABfan11 Well, yes, but the number of decks that are able to do this, while also potentially supplying their opponent with a bunch of interruptions has become a lot smaller recently, especially because of said interruptions. Back in the day, Maxx "C" challenge was actually easier. Yeah, we had Veiler back then, but these days we also have Droll, which wasn't played nearly as often before, and we have the ghost girls which does change the situation.
I would say about 99.9% of the time, it would be more advisable to not even attempt the Maxx "C" challenge.
@@MABfan11 very few decks can do that. Off the top of my head, the ones I can think of are full power zoodiac, flower cardian, and maybe infernity. There is also trickstar however that can kill you for using Maxx C. Still a stupid card and I am absolutely glad I don't have to deal with it in the TCG.
@@Xenonfuji Apparently Six sams do it too
@@danieltaylor4185 many deck in ocg aren't bothered by it too much like dinomorphia, flundereeze, rhongominiad or even labyrinth.
Now we need to hit sprite.
I could, honest to God, watch this type of video everyday. Love staple or stinker, specially if the one that's trying to guess plays another TCG. Please do more!
Sea Monster of Theseus was only considered "good" in the understanding of Instant Fusion (and now Ready Fusion) and the fact that it is itself a Tuner. Not giving him a context ahead of time makes this kind of sloppy. The only reason Konami thought it was good was because its a 5 star Tuner helping get higher star level Synchro's easier, but it turned out that isn't very important. Ready Fusion exists now so you actually have 4 copies of cards to get this out easy. Instant Fusion being limited to 1 means literally nothing in this instance.
It’s also a Zombie which has multiple ways to recur it for use later down the line. I’m sure being Water is a plus in some way. It’s just a shame despite all the pros it does have, the cons just negate them.
In fairness, had it been level 4 instead (or even level 2 or 3) it would have seen much more use, but a high-level tuner is really not good.
Got dang having a pro player talk about this is amazing the intuitively understood turn advantage without knowing the steps that were taken to mitigate that and he understands ratios and statistical analysis loving it. Also he understood the need to feel like you know more flame war.
I have said it before, and I'll say it again. YuGiOh is extreamly hard to judge based on individual cards. Any strong card can be strong purely because another exists, and a card can be weak purely based on the cards it's used with. Still fun to see people try, but hardly any YuGiOh card is the same power level in a vacume as it is in the normal game
i think how hard to judge is why these types of videos are so fun to watch, but that could just be me hehe
I mean. That's basically every tcg
I agree. Meta knowledge is a much greater part of a card's strength in yugioh compared to the other TCGs. The explanations for Yugioh cards usually need a small meta breakdown to clarify why they're good/bad.
@@indigo1296 yeah. because YGO is pretty much an archetype game where the strength of cards are entirely dependent on what deck enables them. This is why most YGO games are boring since you know whats gonna happen between the same metadecks from turn 1 to 3. Too bad the power creep got too much. YGO was once a deck builders dream game. But now, if you dont build the meta decks and have no prior knowledge of paragraphs of text in each meta card, you have no chance of winning when you go to a local game store to play.
As someone who plays the big 3 card games on a casual level its always fun to compare cardpower and ressource effect weightings eg, draw cards,
magic you can tutor and draw for some mana or hitpoints with price and scope depending on color.
Pokemon you get to just draw a ton of cards with supporters or pokemon abilities and tutor a ton with item cards and abilities it is fine.
but in Yugioh you can in (most) archetypes tutor to your hearts content, but blind drawing from deck costs you two fifth of your extradeck, or one fourth of your maindeck or very specific cards in hand/field to pay the cost for a 1 for 1 or 2 for 2 card draw.
What's funny is that losing the extra deck and one 4th of your main deck are still kinda unhealthy for the game. Those cards tend to have a huge impact when they resolve, and arguably should be hit on the list.
i wound love to see some old meta cards being in series in the future like Dark armed dragon for example.
Or Djinn?
@@lucaillgen1248 I'd say maybe cards that aren't currently banned but are free but banned at some point.
I am a MtG player with a small to moderate amount of yugioh knowledge through memes, videos like this, and friends. I got Sea Monster badly wrong because I knew instant fusion and how synchros work, but not the current state of the game or that instant fusion was limited. I also assumed there was some future fusion style benefit that you could get by dumping any two tuners into the graveyard or super poly to steal an opponents tuner. Got the rest right at least.
Part 3 is a must now
I’m so sad you didn’t mention “taking the maxx “C” challenge” where your opponent just continues their combo regardless of the draws.
you should've mentioned the Maxx "C" Challenge, it's a really fun part of yugioh
best counter to maxx c is "just otk bro its not that hard"
@@JoeMama-dk6xr any smart player has anti otk cards, like t-roar, battle fader, I know there are newer ones just can't think off the top.
@@acetraker1988 any normal yugioh player doesnt run any of those, and anyways the only way maxx c does anything in a maxx c challenge is getting lucky and drawing the hand trap get out of jail card. plus some decks can just force a deck out if they arent stopped in time
@@acetraker1988 lmfao those are garbage cards it's not 2012 anymore.
Maxx C against combo is always an auto win unless you're not running other going 2nd cards.
The reasoning of the guy on Prosperity was insane. Top player brain right there 👏👏👏.
It's always interesting hearing a completely fresh look at cards. Yugioh is such a complicated and unusual card game that a lot of the usual logic doesn't NECESSARILY apply very easily. To Toffel's credit, he adapted very quickly once he started getting hints about just how fast the meta is. Very interesting watch.
I’ve never seen someone grasp Yugioh’s mechanics this quickly. Give him a deck and watch him put up one hell of a fight
This genuinely the best ive seen a player understand yugioh without even understanding what the extra deck is lmao
Oh, i didnt even know that Gnomaterial was a card. That could maybe be decent against PUNK, at least as a budget option.
It's godawful, even going second you would always rather have a different card in my opinion.
Contact C is better
Didn't clarify a few things for Maxx "C" that I wish you would have.
Maxx "C", when used on your opponent's turn, forces your opponent to think about their plays. Whatever strategy they had in mind, they immediately have to second guess every special summon from that point forward. The opponent can absolutely try to power through it and keep summoning and hope they win that turn and don't have to deal with all the drawn cards next turn, but they risk also being shut down by newly drawn hand traps.
Also, in regards to the TCG and OCG banlists. The reasoning behind the ban differences is because of the overall playstyles between the 2 game environments in addition to the card pools. TCG players as a whole will typically play a much more disruptive playstyle where they constantly work toward shutting down all potential plays of their opponent, lots of negation, returning to the deck/hand, etc. OCG players, in contrast, typically play with the idea of mitigating your opponent's actions after they do them.
A TCG player will negate your summon to prevent you from using that monster, where an OCG player will allow the summon but prevent the incoming attack and then deal with the monster on their turn.
That's why the TCG is generally much more liberal in its handling of bans when it comes to negation and hand traps than the OCG, because they're just not as big of an issue in the OCG.
One thing that wasn't mentioned about Maxx C is that it effectively blocks special summoning for that turn. If it's used, you only have two options: stop(which leaves the advantage to yout opponent) or continue(which means your opponent keeps drawing cards). Either way, it's a lose-lose situation.
Trickstar players: I have no such weakness
@@gianglai7346 true draco and floo are the ones that actually don't care
@@shinysniper9537 floo players are inhuman and draco player dont exist lol.
@@Noah-hz9cx Eldlich is kinda immune to it since they usually just special summon once or twice per turn anyways, but these were 3 full on floodgate decks in a row. In short, you're either f*cked by cockroaches or you fight the poison with a more toxic kind of poison.
@@sekaihunter9378 "Kinda imune" "special summon once or twice"... Even if you special summon once it is basically a upstart goblin without the 1000 LP, if you special twice then it is a pot of greed.
It was really fun to watch him develop his understanding of the way value works in the game from the first two cards
I got 2 out of 5.
One question I have: I see that Maxx "C" has the "the above text is unofficial and describes the card's functionality in the OCG." - What does that mean for the game? I know the TCG and OCG have separate ban lists, but are the effects of some cards different between the formats? Just something decorative added for the reprint BECAUSE of the different banlists? Something else?
From what I can see the card was printed 3 times in Japan and 2 in the west.
Basically every once in a while they change the text of the card even if it functions in the same way (and sometimes they outright change the way the card is working, but that's not the case here).
So that text means that this is a translation of the 3rd Japanese printing (errata). The official western text is from the 2nd printing of the card.
Long story short I think in the 3rd printing they just replaced "During either player's turn" with "Quick Effect".
Im pretty sure they just used a picture of the card from like a decade ago before it was released officially in the TCG. The effects are always the same between OCG/TCG
It is an easy to make oversight by the editor. They took the fan translation of the card when it was first printed in Japanese rather than an English scan. They did a great job with the video regardless.
Some Japanese cards work differently than English cards due to different rulings from judges, but those are rare and usually quickly rectified.
Maxx C is banned in the TCG, that's the only difference, but the effect is the same on both releases.
Heya!
So because there's no official database for high quality card art, it can sometimes result in things like this where the assets provided have strange stuff on them like this, in this case an old mock up of the card prior to its official PSCT.
The text is of course official, slight oversight on my part, should've caught it when reviewing the edit!
First question being is "Pot of Greed banned?" is card game brain for sure.
For anyone who hasn't realized the power creep of the game, Raigeki is at 3 per deck and it isn't a staple card.
The algorithm really loves these two videos, and so do I. You've found gold!
Max C is such a weird card. It’s probably the biggest difference between the two main formats and it’s arguably not OP because it prevents combo decks from taking 10 minute turns. However, it’s also really dumb that it is usable in response to a summon to go neutral.
It quite literally warps the game around it and heavily favors control decks and slower games. How ever, it’s also great in combo decks (or decks like Beetroopers as they can search it during their combos) as it means in combo vs combo they get so much gas.
As much as I hate erratas, I’d change it from the second special summon onward. While it effectively would stop your opponent from playing, they could force you to go -1, which would give the cars any amount of drawback
still too good, ends the turn
It favoring control decks being the biggest reason the banlist divide even exist. OCG players favor control/slow games over combo while TCG players favor combo over control. Kinda what makes any Worlds tournament so alien for all since it uses lowest allowable from both lists. Though i guess thats what makes Worlds the most balanced list.
@@random_void._ another answer is to delay the advantage. So if you made it so the cards couldn’t be activated until the end of your opponent’s next turn, it means your hand could be filled with cards you can’t use. While plenty of cards have fantastic GY effects (if your opponent gives you 10 cards you will have to discard), advantage isn’t as strong if it can’t be utilized immediately.
also, the Maxx "C" Challenge is a really fun part of yugioh
As someone who only played Yugioh back in the day Supply Squad looked super good to me. Modern Yugioh is so different.
This was entertaining, next time you could ask about any of these:
Number iC1000: Numerounius Numerounia
Linear Equation Cannon
Maxx c feels a lot like force of will in that it’s a powerful cost less response to your opponent that kinda defines the meta of the environment just by the threat of it existing.
Theseus was a tricky card for sure. In the context of meta decks or high level play, yeah it probably rarely saw play. But in rogue decks, banlists aside (since this card would enable halq+linkross plays), it has been a major combo enabler for some decks, particularly decks that use the lonefire+predaplant package. Considering hand traps, ban list transience, and level of play, and a combo piece, AKA context, I thought he did a pretty decent job of analysing it.
A dumb idea for one of these types of videos is to have all the cards to be analysed be a part of a single combo. What order the cards are revealed could be mixed up.
Good deductive reasoning.
I haven't played since Jinzo and Mirror Force but I could've reached similar conclusions from my Magic knowledge
man, he picked that up fast. his analysis of gnomaterial was spot on. definitely a top player for a reason
Never seen or heard of this channel seems like some good stuff.