I'll share a story. The word martyr has a lot of meaning to me. My father is a mechanic. As a child I watched him work on cars but was never allowed to participate or "do" anything. Now I'm an adult. I won't say my exact age, but definitely old enough to fix my car. Still, it's intimidating. My father is much older now, but still works on cars. I asked him to help me and to allow me to do "most" of the work. I went over, and my mother, knowing that my father and I often butt heads, began to guilt me to not push for what I needed. The "attention" of my father supporting me, not taking over, and "coaching" me to learn (what I never got as a child). She, in her martyr role, was trying to prevent a "fight". But, on the other side, I am also fighting with my father, who is almost definitely going to "take over", which would leave me watching him fix the car, as I was forced as a child, rather than learning. But is my father also not martyring himself? Similar to my mother, he is trying to "prevent" the car from having trouble. Both are helping, but in a way that serves them, not me. I was able to, clumsily, navigate the situation, and get my needs met. I did, in fact, do "most" of the work, but did frequently have to assert "let me do it". And with my mother, I had to assert "stay out of it", knowing that if I didn't "push" on my father, it would in a sense, be retraumatizing. He is old enough now that sickness or death are around the corner. I, yearning for the passing of intergenerational knowledge, and closeness with my father. And my father and mother, also fighting for their senses of identity. Their "purpose" of serving "the family". However, if I would have played the martyr and said "yes mom, I'll be nice to dad", and "yes dad, I'll let you take over", my needs would have been squashed. We hope that there is always room for compromise - but sometimes there isn't. If you really want (need) something to change (even for intrapsychic reasons), sometimes you have to demand for it. So who was the martyr in the story then? All of us? And still, I was trying to give to my parents. To give to my mother by saying "you're enmeshed! take some distance", and to give to my father by saying "be a teacher! stop being a performer". But of course, any engrained role that's fused with love and identity, is hard to step away from - and the possibility of something different, but satisfying in a new way, is hidden from awareness. Who can imagine the new reality? And who will stand for it and bear the risk? I realize this is a mundane example, but still potent, since your parents don't live forever, and when they die, parts of us go with them.
I watched this exact dynamic, mechanic father, brother who wanted to be taught lovingly, not controlled, mother dynamic, identity issues. Father n brother made each other sick trying to work together 30 years. The parents had a developmental obligation and failed miserably then blamed the kids and absolved themselves of any duty since we're adults now, albeit dysfunctional and sick. I had to get out, left 18 years ago and have only been back a few times for funerals. I was parentified by age 2, baby of 4, left to fend for self as disabled injured bird trying to compensate to blend in. Siblings jealous of medical conditions that took away from them, like it was zero sum game to them. I'm still shocked how things ended up.
Great statment 😊 long timme ago i heard that we all messed up way or another and searching for need to be met is like falling to deep pit.... we all have needs unmet and i was told we better try to learn work as team as we all have traits of archetypes in us.
Beautiful story!! It’s the asserting that’s the big lesson! It’s hard for me too. Because you are working with forces that push back. I really admire you! And you have inspired this old 65 year old to speak up more myself ❤
As a mother who rather cook alone than have the kids cook I don’t think it was a martyred situation. Although I let my kids help and have taught them plenty of foods to cook I rather do it alone. It brings me peace of mind. It’s nothing personal or a thought they are incompetent it’s a breaking of a moment of peace to include another who will make a mess, ask a million questions and at the same time ignore the answers. Your mother was probably trying to keep the peace. Because when you two go at it she naturally has to settle it or her internal peace is also shaken. What we take personally is hardly ever a personal attack. Or a prideful move from the other. It’s just a way in which the other moves that works for them and keeps their peace. It’s funny I see so many people that enjoy Carl Jung and at the same time still have a scape goat. I’m not saying that being assertive was wrong it, it probably was a good shake up for what might usually be a stale situation but I see no right or wrong person in this situation.
I had a big martyr complex as a child when I got punished and sent to my room and I promised I'd never come out again or vowed to myself I'd not speak to anyone for days - for me, such amplification of punishments offered me a sense of agency and control even when I had none - "no, you didn't do this to me, I did it to myself, so at least I'll still be in control of the fact that I am suffering."
Exactly. This is a good way to reflect on it. I understand criticism of the martyr complex and I learn about my behaviours and understand how much it can distort perception of others, but I get triggered when bullies use this analysis used to gaslighting and further their bully needs. So these videos (my second) on this topic is both awakening and challenging. I think it's important to understand it the way you did it because otherwise I see in myself that it gets worse when it's approached harshly. There was a reason your defense mechanism got activated. There must have been something about it, the way done to you, in an unrightful way. Unloving way. Maybe in a power dynamic way. When this has been done in an abusive way, it's normal that the kid's perception developed in that way into adulthood. It's really strange dynamics indeed. And who is pissed about which one in what way to which degree. I feel like I obtained the martyr complex to repel abusers but made it more attractive to them. Then everyone keeps getting triggered in a painful cycle. This dynamic I have to break. So much to unlearn yet so much more to learn.
I’m in the group of folks whose parents deeply loved us were out of sorts so I took on a parenting role young. That did lead me to feel, in the background, a sense of martyrdom, and then my psyche seemed to groove that into a pattern. My natural wildishbess bucked that tendency in my 20’s, but it resurfaces now and then and I have to catch it. It’s hard for me to speak out my needs; it almost feels like an aggression. Life is a gym for me to out learn this! Thank you for this conversation, it gave me some in-sight and will help me tend to that part of myself better. ❤
I only recently discovered the term "martyr complex," but I can relate to it deeply. For a long time, I've felt as though I put my best efforts into looking out for others, only to have them turn around and dismiss or even undermine my efforts to help them find happiness. Over time, this has led me to the understanding that people are inherently flawed. Personally, I often find myself trying to be the best I can be and to help others-even at my own expense. But I still struggle with whether this is "wrong." It seems to me-and perhaps to many others who share this perspective-that being good often involves self-sacrifice. I’ve drawn this belief from my understanding of the Bible and Jesus, who sacrificed everything for the sins of others. In a way, I see myself as a "fallen angel"-someone willing to sacrifice their own happiness for the sake of others. But I've come to realize that this way of thinking is flawed. The people I try to help often seem beyond saving, and it isn't my responsibility, or anyone else's, to try to satisfy their needs. The only person who can truly help them is themselves. People only change when they’re ready to change, and there's nothing you can do if someone doesn't want to help themselves. So, I’m left wondering: Is this a flawed way of thinking, or am I just crazy?
❤I discovered your channel last year (I have shared it with many friends!) I continue to be deeply touched, moved and healed beyond words from your podcasts. I am eager to become a patron, you don’t ask for much and give soooo much!!!!! ❤ 😢My personal suffering runs deep and wide and yes, full of wisdom… now… after two decades plus enduring isolation and excessive, repeated, physical trauma..😮You see, I sustained rare sequela from of an accident on a train 23 years ago… a complex story which one day I hope to write about. 😅 🎉THANK YOU for truly making a difference in my life and for providing the most thought provoking and refreshing UA-cam channel out there! Your conscious intelligence provides a band-aided social support system inside of my daunting circumstances. 😂I am soaking up the wisdom you share, wisdom which is disseminated with such neutrality, I am both filled with gratitude and sweetly stunned into silence. ❤❤
In my latest visit to the therapist she told me that I had this complex, and indeed it is true, but I cant consider it a one-sided illness or something that I need to change but a powerful energy that I need to constantly utilize in conscious manners. It can be selfish or selfless, and if I put it into service as way of individuation and self-transcendence, it reaches a deeper level towards Self.
Dear friends I loved this episode.I am a new catholic and I've been pushed by jung.I am coming from bhuddism/tao.And all this is such a interesting soup!Bless you saints and bhodisattvas..
Every time I think to tell someone about the negative feelings or illness I may be going through, it occurs to me that it may be a plea for care. I am looking for someone to care about me.
Yes and this individualism put on everyone is really not healthy or helpful. People need care when in need. And even stash some in a corner in case. This is survival. We can not overlook our needs. This topic is so difficult to me.
My mother tells me she's sick every couple of weeks, every 6 months she's dying. Every few years she has a depression episode. I've cared for her throughout the years but not much changes and her health seems to get worse. Now she's saying things like "I wonder when I'd hear from you and if you still loved me" as I'm handing her two tubs of pumpkin soup I just spent 3 hours cooking for her because she's sick. I realised she does this because she wants me to care about her and look after her but she's done it sooo much that now I'm at a point where I'm done caring and if she doesn't sort herself out (and stop making her health my responsibility) I'm not going to see her or talk to her. Telling someone occasionally how you are isn't a bad thing, doing it constantly will make some not care at all.
I love TJL so much that I can’t possibly do justice here in words. I have truly learned so much from the three of you and I am so incredibly grateful for that. My main reason for commenting today however, is to express my concern over Lisa’s comment about what Islam says about suicide bombers. It is grossly inaccurate and merely an extremist and deviant opinion of some rogue Muslims that do not at all align with true Islam. To take one innocent life in Islam is like the killing of the whole of humanity (Quran 5:32). I think extra caution should be taken when we speak of other religions unless we are 100% sure especially given the current socio-political climate.
Literally just posted a comment conveying a similar sentiment. Given how careful and thoughtful these podcasters are with their words and ideas, I was surprised that the stereotype of the "muslim terrorist" elicited zero pushback from the two other therapists.
I think many people with a martyr complex believe they deserve more recognition than they receive. In other words, they often see themselves as geniuses who aren't fully appreciated. This might be part of the issue, or perhaps they are genuinely talented but lack the mental or emotional tools to express their brilliance. There are well-known figures like Kanye West, Steve Jobs, Nikola Tesla, and others who many of us admire, and some people watching might relate to them. The key difference, however, is that these individuals were able to bring their ideas to life, while those with a martyr complex often want to be seen in a positive light but struggle so much with expression that their frustrations only build over time, creating the very problems they face.
I would love to hear more on how Martyrdom seems to be the common thread in chronic disease if you would please… I couldn’t help but relate to this especially from the perspective of childhood emotional neglect & familial scapegoating. My mother certainly tried hard to repress her own martyrdom angst. I felt guilty for her sacrifice, and tried to over-compensate with my own successes, eventually making myself chronically ill. I see that unconsciously I used illness to excuse my own failures and as an attempt to make my family see me.
It’s interesting that you bring up 911 in relation to the notion of martyr. Definitely the people who flew the planes into the towers saw themselves as martyrs. I wonder how you feel about unpacking some of God images that constitute any given cultures ‘higher good? It would be extraordinary if we could develop ways to see and feel God as loving all of us equally and in a way that we could all live in peace and respect each other’s chance to live wel here on Earth. I wonder can we reflect and upgrade our God image to help us, individually and collectively.
ok, but ... we don't have to find meaning in suffering, do we? Can we still be considered wise, and also see suffering as random and meaningless? (for those who believe God is just a psychological projection).
Martyrdom has negative connotations for me as my mother suffered from this and neglected its effects on her children, consequently she was immobilized to act on anyone’s interest and leave her abusive husband!
The mother whose children are grown and never visit. She says "oh no don't bother visiting, I know you don't have time for that". "Mom do you want me to visit?" "No no I couldn't trouble you like that" This person seems to be a martyr because they don't feel safe asking for what they really want. Or perhaps she wants for her children to visit without her having to ask them.
I’m not sure how being a mother makes you a martyr?. It’s not a cause it’s a choice to have a family or not. Hopefully we are not confusing guilt and martyrdom. As a mother my deepest wish for my children is to go live their best life and I am responsible for mine!
I feel like there's an important distinction that Deborah clicked in my head for me The martyr MUST be SEEN to make an impact. My mind immediately went to light. Light makes the love real. It creates and makes a change. If it WAS NOT SEEN then it doesn't change Love in the extreme is self sacrifice. As noble and beautiful as that is WITHOUT LIGHT it doesn't "really" change anything. Like it's ability to change is really more dependent on others actually being able to love as well. But if not, nothing really changes. And in a indirect way Lisa kinda pointed this out indirectly martyrdom or love on it's own is really powerless. And in that sense it doesn't exist on the ground. Hence that reality testing You can think of it like child abuse. If a child is love, it can't really protect itself from abuse because it lacks power. But if it has love and light well... All's well and good 😂 It's like the sun you get the warmth and the light Just the warmth (love) or martyrdom nothing can grow (As Joseph mentioned it's against the life force) You need the light and the warmth for thriving and joy to be possible
It might be admirable for some historical figures to sacrifice themselves, but they died and our adaptation saves our life. So those people dying for their principles, their family line may have died out. Is our goal to prove a point or conviction? Or is it for us to live on and have offspring to keep our ideas going? I thought martyrdom was when someone does something for another that that person didnt ask for to make the other owe them something else for their benefit. To tie themselves to the other.
An assumption is being made here about the (presumably woman) who is licking 50,000 envelops. Do others agree that 50,000 are required? Could it be 40,000? Could a plan have been put in place sooner to get them done? And from her perspective - did no one offer to help? Did she "imply" that help was needed (passive aggressive), but no one responded - and therefore, her mentality is "if I don't do it, no one will". Does she not have a right to "resent" if others "knew" she would do it? It makes me think of the mother/father dynamic, where mom wants more "help" with parenting, but then criticizes dad because he's not helping "right" (ie her way). I'm sure there's a inverse vice-versa version. It could even be something as mundane as packing school lunches. At the unconscious core, we are always meeting our own needs and seeking love (attachment). Dad develops a mentality of "my caretaking isn't good enough so why should I bother if I'll just be criticized". Mom develops a mentality of "I better stay in the kitchen because that's where I have the most control". The fact is, we have to be bad at something before we can be good at it. Confidence doesn't appear, it grows - and more specifically, it grows in an atmosphere of gratitude. Still, we are different people with different ideas of "good" and "ideal". As you said, the idea always lies somewhere in the middle, but I guess the hard question is "how do we get there?" and "what if there is no middle, then what"?
Hey dreamer, the jungians are still chatting and I wonder if there is a man behind the scenes of this dream who is empowered by what you give. You want /half want to give but not if it puts you at risk/makes you subservient/receive nothing in rdturn
With Islam the Jihad( suicide bomber as stated) is to kill all infidels and be rewarded with virgins. An esoteric view of this would be to go with in on a spiritual journey and transmute the defense and fear into pure virgin thoughts. The martyr would be those that sacrifice themselves to embody and bring the journey to the world. This relates with the dream read in the eclipse episode last week. Death isn’t always physical death. This is what I’ve gathered in my journey of healing the 3 years as a firefighter/EMS in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If historically for cexample in invasions of one group to commit cultural genocide of an indigenous race, like colonisation. The survivors may have put their family before any belief, so they can carry on their race which is about to be eradicated. Perhaps this is why there are so much less people standing up for principles, because historically they have been killed and their lineage of rigid beliefs, made this happen.
Imam Hussain rhe son of prophet Muhammad Pease be upon him and his family martyr story is the life in my soul, The infinite tears in my heart. I recommend anyone from any type of faith or background to search who is Hussain💔
Martyrdom that arises out of the egoic defence mechanism against the parts of reality we don't like is probably not the "quality" martyrdom you're describing.
I'll share a story. The word martyr has a lot of meaning to me. My father is a mechanic. As a child I watched him work on cars but was never allowed to participate or "do" anything. Now I'm an adult. I won't say my exact age, but definitely old enough to fix my car. Still, it's intimidating. My father is much older now, but still works on cars. I asked him to help me and to allow me to do "most" of the work. I went over, and my mother, knowing that my father and I often butt heads, began to guilt me to not push for what I needed. The "attention" of my father supporting me, not taking over, and "coaching" me to learn (what I never got as a child). She, in her martyr role, was trying to prevent a "fight". But, on the other side, I am also fighting with my father, who is almost definitely going to "take over", which would leave me watching him fix the car, as I was forced as a child, rather than learning. But is my father also not martyring himself? Similar to my mother, he is trying to "prevent" the car from having trouble. Both are helping, but in a way that serves them, not me. I was able to, clumsily, navigate the situation, and get my needs met. I did, in fact, do "most" of the work, but did frequently have to assert "let me do it". And with my mother, I had to assert "stay out of it", knowing that if I didn't "push" on my father, it would in a sense, be retraumatizing. He is old enough now that sickness or death are around the corner. I, yearning for the passing of intergenerational knowledge, and closeness with my father. And my father and mother, also fighting for their senses of identity. Their "purpose" of serving "the family". However, if I would have played the martyr and said "yes mom, I'll be nice to dad", and "yes dad, I'll let you take over", my needs would have been squashed. We hope that there is always room for compromise - but sometimes there isn't. If you really want (need) something to change (even for intrapsychic reasons), sometimes you have to demand for it. So who was the martyr in the story then? All of us? And still, I was trying to give to my parents. To give to my mother by saying "you're enmeshed! take some distance", and to give to my father by saying "be a teacher! stop being a performer". But of course, any engrained role that's fused with love and identity, is hard to step away from - and the possibility of something different, but satisfying in a new way, is hidden from awareness. Who can imagine the new reality? And who will stand for it and bear the risk? I realize this is a mundane example, but still potent, since your parents don't live forever, and when they die, parts of us go with them.
I watched this exact dynamic, mechanic father, brother who wanted to be taught lovingly, not controlled, mother dynamic, identity issues. Father n brother made each other sick trying to work together 30 years. The parents had a developmental obligation and failed miserably then blamed the kids and absolved themselves of any duty since we're adults now, albeit dysfunctional and sick. I had to get out, left 18 years ago and have only been back a few times for funerals. I was parentified by age 2, baby of 4, left to fend for self as disabled injured bird trying to compensate to blend in. Siblings jealous of medical conditions that took away from them, like it was zero sum game to them. I'm still shocked how things ended up.
Great statment 😊 long timme ago i heard that we all messed up way or another and searching for need to be met is like falling to deep pit.... we all have needs unmet and i was told we better try to learn work as team as we all have traits of archetypes in us.
Beautiful story!! It’s the asserting that’s the big lesson! It’s hard for me too. Because you are working with forces that push back. I really admire you! And you have inspired this old 65 year old to speak up more myself ❤
As a mother who rather cook alone than have the kids cook I don’t think it was a martyred situation. Although I let my kids help and have taught them plenty of foods to cook I rather do it alone. It brings me peace of mind. It’s nothing personal or a thought they are incompetent it’s a breaking of a moment of peace to include another who will make a mess, ask a million questions and at the same time ignore the answers.
Your mother was probably trying to keep the peace. Because when you two go at it she naturally has to settle it or her internal peace is also shaken.
What we take personally is hardly ever a personal attack. Or a prideful move from the other. It’s just a way in which the other moves that works for them and keeps their peace.
It’s funny I see so many people that enjoy Carl Jung and at the same time still have a scape goat. I’m not saying that being assertive was wrong it, it probably was a good shake up for what might usually be a stale situation but I see no right or wrong person in this situation.
I had a big martyr complex as a child when I got punished and sent to my room and I promised I'd never come out again or vowed to myself I'd not speak to anyone for days - for me, such amplification of punishments offered me a sense of agency and control even when I had none - "no, you didn't do this to me, I did it to myself, so at least I'll still be in control of the fact that I am suffering."
Exactly. This is a good way to reflect on it. I understand criticism of the martyr complex and I learn about my behaviours and understand how much it can distort perception of others, but I get triggered when bullies use this analysis used to gaslighting and further their bully needs. So these videos (my second) on this topic is both awakening and challenging. I think it's important to understand it the way you did it because otherwise I see in myself that it gets worse when it's approached harshly. There was a reason your defense mechanism got activated. There must have been something about it, the way done to you, in an unrightful way. Unloving way. Maybe in a power dynamic way. When this has been done in an abusive way, it's normal that the kid's perception developed in that way into adulthood. It's really strange dynamics indeed. And who is pissed about which one in what way to which degree. I feel like I obtained the martyr complex to repel abusers but made it more attractive to them. Then everyone keeps getting triggered in a painful cycle. This dynamic I have to break. So much to unlearn yet so much more to learn.
I’m in the group of folks whose parents deeply loved us were out of sorts so I took on a parenting role young. That did lead me to feel, in the background, a sense of martyrdom, and then my psyche seemed to groove that into a pattern. My natural wildishbess bucked that tendency in my 20’s, but it resurfaces now and then and I have to catch it. It’s hard for me to speak out my needs; it almost feels like an aggression. Life is a gym for me to out learn this! Thank you for this conversation, it gave me some in-sight and will help me tend to that part of myself better. ❤
I only recently discovered the term "martyr complex," but I can relate to it deeply. For a long time, I've felt as though I put my best efforts into looking out for others, only to have them turn around and dismiss or even undermine my efforts to help them find happiness. Over time, this has led me to the understanding that people are inherently flawed. Personally, I often find myself trying to be the best I can be and to help others-even at my own expense. But I still struggle with whether this is "wrong."
It seems to me-and perhaps to many others who share this perspective-that being good often involves self-sacrifice. I’ve drawn this belief from my understanding of the Bible and Jesus, who sacrificed everything for the sins of others. In a way, I see myself as a "fallen angel"-someone willing to sacrifice their own happiness for the sake of others. But I've come to realize that this way of thinking is flawed. The people I try to help often seem beyond saving, and it isn't my responsibility, or anyone else's, to try to satisfy their needs. The only person who can truly help them is themselves. People only change when they’re ready to change, and there's nothing you can do if someone doesn't want to help themselves.
So, I’m left wondering: Is this a flawed way of thinking, or am I just crazy?
❤I discovered your channel last year (I have shared it with many friends!) I continue to be deeply touched, moved and healed beyond words from your podcasts. I am eager to become a patron, you don’t ask for much and give soooo much!!!!! ❤
😢My personal suffering runs deep and wide and yes, full of wisdom… now… after two decades plus enduring isolation and excessive, repeated, physical trauma..😮You see, I sustained rare sequela from of an accident on a train 23 years ago… a complex story which one day I hope to write about. 😅
🎉THANK YOU for truly making a difference in my life and for providing the most thought provoking and refreshing UA-cam channel out there! Your conscious intelligence provides a band-aided social support system inside of my daunting circumstances. 😂I am soaking up the wisdom you share, wisdom which is disseminated with such neutrality, I am both filled with gratitude and sweetly stunned into silence. ❤❤
Thank you so much for the kind words!
In my latest visit to the therapist she told me that I had this complex, and indeed it is true, but I cant consider it a one-sided illness or something that I need to change but a powerful energy that I need to constantly utilize in conscious manners.
It can be selfish or selfless, and if I put it into service as way of individuation and self-transcendence, it reaches a deeper level towards Self.
There are also many forms of justification we use to continue a comforting behavior.
Thank you for this thoughtful conversation and the call to reflect intrapsychically on the notion of martyr .
Dear friends I loved this episode.I am a new catholic and I've been pushed by jung.I am coming from bhuddism/tao.And all this is such a interesting soup!Bless you saints and bhodisattvas..
Thank you for sharing!
❤
Every time I think to tell someone about the negative feelings or illness I may be going through, it occurs to me that it may be a plea for care. I am looking for someone to care about me.
Yes and this individualism put on everyone is really not healthy or helpful. People need care when in need. And even stash some in a corner in case. This is survival. We can not overlook our needs. This topic is so difficult to me.
My mother tells me she's sick every couple of weeks, every 6 months she's dying. Every few years she has a depression episode. I've cared for her throughout the years but not much changes and her health seems to get worse. Now she's saying things like "I wonder when I'd hear from you and if you still loved me" as I'm handing her two tubs of pumpkin soup I just spent 3 hours cooking for her because she's sick. I realised she does this because she wants me to care about her and look after her but she's done it sooo much that now I'm at a point where I'm done caring and if she doesn't sort herself out (and stop making her health my responsibility) I'm not going to see her or talk to her. Telling someone occasionally how you are isn't a bad thing, doing it constantly will make some not care at all.
Thank you Joseph for the opening ..I am a 48 yr old ..I have DID
I love TJL so much that I can’t possibly do justice here in words. I have truly learned so much from the three of you and I am so incredibly grateful for that. My main reason for commenting today however, is to express my concern over Lisa’s comment about what Islam says about suicide bombers. It is grossly inaccurate and merely an extremist and deviant opinion of some rogue Muslims that do not at all align with true Islam. To take one innocent life in Islam is like the killing of the whole of humanity (Quran 5:32). I think extra caution should be taken when we speak of other religions unless we are 100% sure especially given the current socio-political climate.
Literally just posted a comment conveying a similar sentiment. Given how careful and thoughtful these podcasters are with their words and ideas, I was surprised that the stereotype of the "muslim terrorist" elicited zero pushback from the two other therapists.
Synchronicity. I just taught Viktor Frankl this week (college freshman) and was making the same associations that Joseph opening this discussion with.
Another fantastic episode!
I think many people with a martyr complex believe they deserve more recognition than they receive. In other words, they often see themselves as geniuses who aren't fully appreciated. This might be part of the issue, or perhaps they are genuinely talented but lack the mental or emotional tools to express their brilliance. There are well-known figures like Kanye West, Steve Jobs, Nikola Tesla, and others who many of us admire, and some people watching might relate to them. The key difference, however, is that these individuals were able to bring their ideas to life, while those with a martyr complex often want to be seen in a positive light but struggle so much with expression that their frustrations only build over time, creating the very problems they face.
I would love to hear more on how Martyrdom seems to be the common thread in chronic disease if you would please… I couldn’t help but relate to this especially from the perspective of childhood emotional neglect & familial scapegoating. My mother certainly tried hard to repress her own martyrdom angst. I felt guilty for her sacrifice, and tried to over-compensate with my own successes, eventually making myself chronically ill. I see that unconsciously I used illness to excuse my own failures and as an attempt to make my family see me.
Thanks for clarifying. Your talk about Thomas More being martyred, i immediately assumed the Jungian therpist not the old english guy.
Thank you 🙏
As the first comment, I'd like to say thank you. ❤
Thank you too!
Great episode! Ironically, I just started taking pine pollen, which is a natural supplement to support hormones during menopause. Interesting!
Thank you
It’s interesting that you bring up 911 in relation to the notion of martyr. Definitely the people who flew the planes into the towers saw themselves as martyrs. I wonder how you feel about unpacking some of God images that constitute any given cultures ‘higher good?
It would be extraordinary if we could develop ways to see and feel God as loving all of us equally and in a way that we could all live in peace and respect each other’s chance to live wel here on Earth. I wonder can we reflect and upgrade our God image to help us, individually and collectively.
ok, but ... we don't have to find meaning in suffering, do we? Can we still be considered wise, and also see suffering as random and meaningless? (for those who believe God is just a psychological projection).
Suffering is unavoidable, we evolved to deal with it and without it, our immune system attacks us. And, I haven't gotten to psychology.
Martyrdom has negative connotations for me as my mother suffered from this and neglected its effects on her children, consequently she was immobilized to act on anyone’s interest and leave her abusive husband!
what if the suffering is unavoidable due to circumstances? Suffering is not always controlled or follow a psychological intent
The mother whose children are grown and never visit. She says "oh no don't bother visiting, I know you don't have time for that". "Mom do you want me to visit?" "No no I couldn't trouble you like that"
This person seems to be a martyr because they don't feel safe asking for what they really want.
Or perhaps she wants for her children to visit without her having to ask them.
I’m not sure how being a mother makes you a martyr?. It’s not a cause it’s a choice to have a family or not. Hopefully we are not confusing guilt and martyrdom. As a mother my deepest wish for my children is to go live their best life and I am responsible for mine!
I feel like there's an important distinction that Deborah clicked in my head for me
The martyr MUST be SEEN to make an impact. My mind immediately went to light. Light makes the love real. It creates and makes a change. If it WAS NOT SEEN then it doesn't change
Love in the extreme is self sacrifice. As noble and beautiful as that is WITHOUT LIGHT it doesn't "really" change anything. Like it's ability to change is really more dependent on others actually being able to love as well. But if not, nothing really changes.
And in a indirect way Lisa kinda pointed this out indirectly martyrdom or love on it's own is really powerless. And in that sense it doesn't exist on the ground. Hence that reality testing
You can think of it like child abuse. If a child is love, it can't really protect itself from abuse because it lacks power. But if it has love and light well... All's well and good 😂
It's like the sun you get the warmth and the light
Just the warmth (love) or martyrdom nothing can grow (As Joseph mentioned it's against the life force)
You need the light and the warmth for thriving and joy to be possible
❤❤❤
Thank you.... my twin is a nun. I am a pagan. Your video clear how we see this matter. ❤❤❤❤
Suffering could be in the interest of soul making!
It might be admirable for some historical figures to sacrifice themselves, but they died and our adaptation saves our life. So those people dying for their principles, their family line may have died out. Is our goal to prove a point or conviction? Or is it for us to live on and have offspring to keep our ideas going? I thought martyrdom was when someone does something for another that that person didnt ask for to make the other owe them something else for their benefit. To tie themselves to the other.
An assumption is being made here about the (presumably woman) who is licking 50,000 envelops. Do others agree that 50,000 are required? Could it be 40,000? Could a plan have been put in place sooner to get them done? And from her perspective - did no one offer to help? Did she "imply" that help was needed (passive aggressive), but no one responded - and therefore, her mentality is "if I don't do it, no one will". Does she not have a right to "resent" if others "knew" she would do it? It makes me think of the mother/father dynamic, where mom wants more "help" with parenting, but then criticizes dad because he's not helping "right" (ie her way). I'm sure there's a inverse vice-versa version. It could even be something as mundane as packing school lunches. At the unconscious core, we are always meeting our own needs and seeking love (attachment). Dad develops a mentality of "my caretaking isn't good enough so why should I bother if I'll just be criticized". Mom develops a mentality of "I better stay in the kitchen because that's where I have the most control". The fact is, we have to be bad at something before we can be good at it. Confidence doesn't appear, it grows - and more specifically, it grows in an atmosphere of gratitude. Still, we are different people with different ideas of "good" and "ideal". As you said, the idea always lies somewhere in the middle, but I guess the hard question is "how do we get there?" and "what if there is no middle, then what"?
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Hey dreamer, the jungians are still chatting and I wonder if there is a man behind the scenes of this dream who is empowered by what you give. You want /half want to give but not if it puts you at risk/makes you subservient/receive nothing in rdturn
With Islam the Jihad( suicide bomber as stated) is to kill all infidels and be rewarded with virgins.
An esoteric view of this would be to go with in on a spiritual journey and transmute the defense and fear into pure virgin thoughts. The martyr would be those that sacrifice themselves to embody and bring the journey to the world.
This relates with the dream read in the eclipse episode last week.
Death isn’t always physical death.
This is what I’ve gathered in my journey of healing the 3 years as a firefighter/EMS in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If historically for cexample in invasions of one group to commit cultural genocide of an indigenous race, like colonisation. The survivors may have put their family before any belief, so they can carry on their race which is about to be eradicated. Perhaps this is why there are so much less people standing up for principles, because historically they have been killed and their lineage of rigid beliefs, made this happen.
Raised catholic & in Spain😉
Pine pollen boosts testosterone. I think that’s a significant factor In the dream analysis.
🎉😊
That was a loaded dream.
Imam Hussain rhe son of prophet Muhammad Pease be upon him and his family martyr story is the life in my soul, The infinite tears in my heart. I recommend anyone from any type of faith or background to search who is Hussain💔
Martyrdom that arises out of the egoic defence mechanism against the parts of reality we don't like is probably not the "quality" martyrdom you're describing.
bobby sands, catholic martyr, ? would be same age as us if hadnt been murdered
Wow that dream! I thought, interesting that she can offer men this elixir but doesn't want to be subservient (blow job administration of elixir 😂)