Boeing 737 MAX Crashes Immediately After Takeoff | Here's What Really Happened to Flight 610
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- Find out what really happened to the Boeing 737 MAX 8 operating Flight 610.
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This video is very personal to me. My bestfriend was there and six month before the accident she told me about this channel.
Wait really ? I feel bad for the lost :(
I am sorry for your loss ☹️ May she rest in peace ❤️
I'm sorry to read you lost your friend on this flight, but as long as you remember them, they will never be truly 'lost to you'. Bon chance Mon ami
Seriuss??? Jrng2 org cerita channel gini klo ga hoby aviation
I hope she's ok In heaven 🙏
Honestly, what blows my mind is how this aircraft was able to pass certification with ONE sensor controlling such a vital system on the aircraft. Furthermore, the fact Boeing-the largest aviation manufacturer in North America-decided to take the lazy route in designing an aircraft, is nothing short of negligent
It really is utterly incomprehensible that they wouldn't have some sort of redundancy on such a critical sensor.
Money talks boy
See my comment on scheduled Max flights in Asia and M. East in January.. Before any decisive had been made. Boeing should never have indicated that un-grounding would be a matter of a few months..
when a lightbulb costs more than a car.
Competition with airbus led boeing to cut too many corners with this aircraft. Now they have to spend even more money in lawsuits, redesign, recertification, loss of revenue, etc. Btw, boeing is not just the largest airplane manufacturer in North America. It’s the biggest in the world.
I'm a 70 year old retired professional pilot. Been through a lot in old decrepit aircraft. Whenever you have a manual or computer control problem, get it on the ground NOW! Figure it out ON THE GROUND! Many tragedies...Air Alaska & Air France 441 for two of many.
Alaska those polits were fucked no matter what
How. They had no altitude at points they were climbing. Altitude buys you time. As a Pilot do you want issues at 3,000 feet or 30,000 feet- you're dead anyway if you crash. Again I will say it Altitude buys time. If you can climb while your working it out, it's better than descending trying to work it out.. Computers are best serving us on the ground. UA-cam search Qantas QF72. a near new Australian plane. Computers tried to kill them for the Hell of it, then look at QF32 single engine failure debris near killed them slicing wiring looms and hydraulics. I'd rather fly in a 727-400 anyday thats as old as me.
@Indio With respect, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks. I remember learning the controversy regarding emails from the technical pilot to B, management. How could this be allowed to continue?
Bill, that airplane should never have been returned to service without a test flight, given the severity of the control problems that manifested themselves on previous flights. This required far more than going through the troubleshooting tree in the AMM. I would have had the regional Boeing rep, in addition to myself as a principal engineer, troubleshooting the airplane on site. While I'm pissed as hell at Boeing, the airline shares a measure of responsibility.
@@damiangillett6443 I will take a 1947 Stinson with canvas wings and 100% manual controls. The only gages are altitude, slip/skid and artificial horizon. The trim is set manually. Watch a few youtube videos where pilots will shut off the engine and the prop stops (not pull to idle). These old timers could land the plane with a blindfold and one arm tied behind their back.
I think every pilot should immediately go back to the nearest airport when two displays show different altitudes, pitches, air speeds or similar
EXACTLY Jan!
@@billcallahan9303 I have sat in on some of these meetings in Renton, WA, as an airline mechanic. Fortunately my employer never purchased the MAX 8 planes. We do have about 20 of the 737-900 and 900ER's though with another 60 on order. I CAN tell you that there is a LOT of empty office space at the Boeing offices , A LOT! Some serious non-compliance was going down in that place and everyone involved was trying to distance themselves from it...
@@tima.478 Thanks Tim for that inside tip. My nephew was flying co-pilot on the MAX for AA. He never had a problem with it but didn't fly it long before they grounded it. He's been out since early April & just got called to return to work...over 6 months.
@@billcallahan9303 YW...AA may have had a couple of the Non-engineer modified ones, there weren't many out there though.
@Noangeltosin 5k feet is the safe fuel dump altitude... It will atomize into the atmosphere at this minimum height.
Terrain terrain..... pull up pull up.....
The most horrifying voice ever
I've got it as my ringtone, it really freaks people out!
@@Clissoldkid I want it
Clissoldkid lol I hope you turn your phone off when you fly!
Sanga Sasanka, maybe worse if your here the words YOU PASSED when in fact you should never have been in the left seat ever!!
I know right😭 The black box recordings are so sad...so eerie to hear the pilots last words and feelings...one pilot said goodnight, another said he loved his wife, some scream in panic ugh😰
There was a serious incident with the plane just the day before and they STILL put people on it?!?! That blows my mind
Profits over lives. You know the drill!
Thats where I have so much appreciation for my time in Air Force aircraft maintenance. We had the ability to shut this stuff down. These civilian companies operate on $$$ for bodies being taken from point A to point B... We had people who would say NO...this thing is broke!
It wasn't a serious incident because that pilot knew the 12 memory items of the 737. Run away elevator trim is one of the 12 memory items you are absolutely required to know how to recognize and mitigate if you are to be a pilot of a 737. The pilot on the previous flight quickly recognized what was happening and just put his hand on the elevator trim wheel. That memory item has been present for 737s from the start. It is not unique to the Max.
Both crashes were because of incompetent pilots flying for banana republic air lines that didn't know the memory items for the type they were flying.
The attacks on Boeing are a witch hunt started by the Chicoms who saw a way to damage a US defense contractor by generating media out rage which eventually all the self righteous media will parrot and then ultimately elected government officials. Did Boeing need to improve the system, yes, but they didn't screw up as much as some of the AirBus fiascos. We don't live in a world where actual facts matter anymore, only peoples' feelings.
@@member5488 Boeing was found and admitted guilty. It was shitty programming which added to that crash. There are thousands of "incompetent pilots" flying daily and not crashing, the disaster needed also a shitty plane which is programmed to think it's better than it is in reality...
@@RDrumcajsek Just keep on buying the propaganda my fine man. A plane crashing because a pilot doesn't know a memory item is as bad as when they have a controlled flight into terrain because they didn't trust their instruments. When some bell end flies into a mountain in fog do they attack the aircraft builder? This is pretty much the only time in history that the blame has been placed on the aircraft builder after pilots failed memory items and it's all because of politics.
Airbus has had several instances where flaws in their programming contributed to hull losses, (Air France 447 for instance) and there was no international outcry because no world power decided to arrange one.
One thing missing in this video is that the captain actually request to RTB (Return to base) but they never made it
was their anything hte pilots could have done to avoid crash
@@randomrazr system reset while using only hydraulics. System override. They could have kept flaps at a constant 15° and leveled. Likely the landing would had been disastrous given the plane forced itself down at almost all times
System override...manual controls....flaps at 15...do everything you can to keep nose up on landing high without smashing rear....pray
@@Bradlalb123 easy to say when you already knew what the problem is.
@gargy2002 I agree ....you are completely correct.
Still remember that morning. I just flew in to Medan, Indonesia for vacation and the next morning I was watching the news of the tragic crash on TV at the hotel. What’s more disturbing is my boss she boarded on Singapore airlines that morning right next to that Lion Air. I am so saddened for the loss of the families 😔
He should've listened to the First Officer when he suggested to go back
Ive flewn with lion air the food was awesome and all that but the fcked up thing was i flew with the 737max
@@dontstalkme9868 Glad you're safe
Yes, poor CRM of the pilots
Both of pilot must be verified the problem first and then decide,the most important is *fly the aircraft* first,i think they already decide rtb,but how?if airplane unable to control,it's so difficult,that's why they try establish that aircraft
Syawash Etemadi Yup
I'm an engineer that has worked in automation all my life. I would bet everything I own that there are many engineers/technicians at Boeing that raised objections to the lack of MCAS failsafes. This was the root problem. It doesn't matter how shitty the design was in the first place if the proper failsafes were in place. For example, it depended on one AOA indicator. Had it looked at both and saw a disagreement, it should have disabled itself. The idea it relied on one sensor is a joke and there is nobody except upper management who would agree with that design. If the MCAS detected countering movements by the pilot or f/o, it should have disabled. Had it looked at both altimeters and saw a disagreement, disable. The list is endless. There are objections in writing somewhere - digital fingerprints. They need to be made public.
Mike Bevan 100% correct. But remember. There is a memory checklist for a runaway trim. Step 1. Turn off MCAS. Same as there is a memory check list for engine failure, hydraulic failure. Etc. that should have had the same effect as auto shut off. Problem would be to manual trim thereafter at speed. See the ET preliminary report. If N1 was 96% no pilot will ever be able to manual trim. The memory checklist also calls for throttle back. ET was at takeoff throttle the entire flight. Sad. But in most crashes multiple failures need to be in sync for a crash to happen. Remember as well there have been multiple mCAS fails. Two resulted in crashes.
Tony de la Motte the thing is they weren’t properly trained about the Mcas. Only like a 2 hour course on an iPad. So they did not know how to disable it. If they had they would have probably survived
@@PlenthAviation the "2 hour course on an iPad" was remarkably inexpensive for Boeing. And now they want a $50B bailout.
Reminds me of the space shuttle o-ring fiasco. Such a preventable tragedy. 😢😠
@@PlenthAviation, true. It was treated as an afterthought. There is no doubt that when the design engineers created this workaround(which is basically what it is) when they discovered how bad the center of gravity shift, it was much simpler. Otherwise, I doubt they would have even considered it. But when that design was reviewed by management, mission creep took over. It always does. Somebody, somewhere started the "We can't use this because on Tuesdays, we lift our left foot up and turn it all about. This design does not accommodate that". Two holes in the ground later, none of them had anything to do with it. This was an epic failure fully documented somewhere.
How can they blame the pilots when of losing focus they were overwhelmed by cockpit alerts with the majority being of false readings and erroneous pitch downs? The FAA is extremely corrupt sometimes.
Corrupt and incompetent
Corruption never pays
Before takeoff their instruments were indicating different speeds the Fo was concerned and did raise the issue to the captain but the captain did ignore it until it became a bigger problem
Fly blind fly safe
the pilot didnt respond to the F/O's suggestion to return to CGK or redirect to nearest airport
Pilot and Crews : Let's have a normal flight.
MCAS : Nope. Not a chance.
Amazing how the FAA is still pointing fingers away from themselves. They are supposed to be the responsible ones with the authority to approve or disapprove things like MCAS.
The problem is much deeper rooted. Management background is required to explain it.
@@aabb-zz9uw Care to explain? FAA management/mismanagement?
@@patrickcowle639 Stop trying to make it someone else's fault when it really is the fault of the airlines. This plane had so many issues, I cannot understand why Lion Air maintenance put it back into service. It's their responsibility to ensure all of the avionics are tested, and working correctly before putting it back into service. To me, this all looks very suspicious. I can't believe they are so incompetent. Something tells me this was sabotage. 38 Civil Servants on board. Hmm.. www.airlineratings.com/news/highly-respected-aviation-experts-critical-lion-air-pilots-crash-report/
If they did that, they would have to pull the certificate on every single Boeing and Airbus jet flying today. Any of them can have a stab trim runaway, and a stab trim runaway is what an MCAS error causes.
realy worrying
I cant imagine the horror in Captain and F/O eyes when the plane diving straight to the sea
Kyra WS I think about the passengers who must have been terrified.
All that nose down and then up must’ve taken its toll on both crew and passengers,must’ve been terrified,MAY THEY ALL RESTIN PEACE
I don't know what would be worse. Being in the cockpit and seeing the ground getting closer or being a passenger and not exactly knowing how close it is
@@deanwinchester7649 The passengers probably thought the captain had a death wish OR that there was a struggle with the controls. I'm sure they had no idea it was the computer.
I think about the passengers and crew, imagine being in an aircraft that just goes up, down, up, then does a complete nose dive. Rest In Peace to all the people on that flight.
The only pilot error was not turning back and making an emergency landing as soon as the plane got a mind of its own and thought it was a Stuka dive bomber.
what you people seem to miss is that the mcas activated soon after take off and at very low altitude, and at that point the pilot are basically fighting with the plane,trying to figure out what's going on and probably hearing multiple alarms. the fault lies in mcas system operating on a single sensor input
The Ju87 Stuka actually had an automated system to pull the plane OUT OF THE DIVE. Not one to put in into a dive. 1930s....make Engineering great again
Yeah.. You are 100% right..
You have 10 fvckin seconds to maneuver and recover if the MCAS fails. And there's no way to recover after the 10 second mark.
10 fvckin seconds, dvmbass. And it was on Boeing's confidential documents And yet, they smirked and said, naaaah that's ok. MCAS wont fail anyway. Sh1theads.
@@Dilley_G45 Inverse of MCAS it seems.
Sad !!! ... I cannot even begin to imagine the terror those passengers felt when they realized the obvious.
Teacher: Name words that terrify you
Class: Ghosts, Death, Guts, Blood
Me: *Pull Up, Terrain, Stall, Banking*
These words terrify me every day
Also we have “Landing Gear”. This happens when the landing gear is not out while landing
If ya shake the STICK.. Id prob crap my pants.
WELP...
WE GOIN BACK!
Also...MCAS. The most terrifying as it was practically made to crash.
TCAS: Descend Descend!
The horror those passengers suffered from the moment it took off going up and down like a rollercoaster, clearly aware something was wrong.
Even if you close your eyes, you brain "sensor" can feel it. I was so nervous during a turn around landing a couple days back, these both CRIMES traumatized me.
I have to imagine those passengers were aware there was something terrible wrong during that 5 or so minute roller coaster ride from Hell. It's awful. RIP all souls lost.
Retired airline EVP (Fleet Management), MD-11 PIC... Watching this video, my heart sunk immediately into my stomach watching the PDF during the final descent. I can't imagine a more frightening experience for a pilot to have an uncommanded horizontal stabilizer movement that cannot be controlled. For myself, I have never felt comfortable with 100% fly-by-wire, and this is the reason.
Following the incident the day before, why wasn't the aircraft taken out of service until it could be thoroughly examined and remedied?
Rhetorically, I would like to know the genius who decided to take the AOA input from only a single sensor! In my view, that is simply unfathomable. AOA sensors can easily be damaged or malfunction due to water incursion or any number of factors. They have moving parts.
While I am not a fan of the Max MCAS system, the least that should have been done is provide three independent AOA vanes that could outvote a single malfunctioning unit. In my opinion, having two with a "disagree" alarm is simply not enough. Additionally, a manual override should have been provided to the pilots, and its use a key part of the orientation.
The most Criminal aspect is the Pilots were not told about this system, or how powerful it is & there is no indication that it has engaged ~ or that it's very simple to inhibit it.
Where did you get the information that the pilots were not told about the system. They knew enough to turn it off. So one would assume they were required to apply the runaway trim checklist.
From industry contacts.. MCAS is fully automatic & works in the background,, intentionally.. Turning off the Stab trim is not the same & pilots were not told that either..
Andy B. I think if you read the checklist (and the ET preliminary report) you will find you are not correct. MCAS acts on the trim system of the aircraft. Pilots are trained on runaway trim. It is a memory checklist item.
You are confusing 2 separate systems and cause & effect, a common mistake in Aircraft Fault diagnostics. Ref to the Bloncolario chanel & an expert Pilots view
Andy B. I assume the accident investigators must also be confused. Best we get your expert and ask him to write to them and tell them they have it all wrong.
The investigators (and Boeing) detailed MCAS as adjusting the stabilizers to force the nose down. This is overridden by ..... disabling automatic trim. (Item 4 in the checklist). The pilot disabled the trim But as the cockpit voice recorder shows complained about not been able to manually trim the aircraft. The pilot then reengaged the system and on run a way was forced to switch it off again.
This happened 5 times. Each time the pilot could not trim manually.
What the pilot failed to account was the aircraft was still at takeoff thrust and as every pilot is taught - the ability to manually trim is affected by the speed of the airflow across the control surface. If the pilot had reduced thrust it would have been easier to manually trim and correct the issue.
Unfortunately when the aircraft crashed - flight data showed that the thrust levers were still set at takeoff thrust.
Funnily enough - all this is in the preliminary report. Together with diagrams and everything. Just a google away.
But. Easier to watch an expert on UA-cam is pose. 🤷♂️
My mum was in that plane. Rest in peace mummy. I ll forever remember you
😥😥
Why you write This Same Comment in Video with America Worst Accident?
@@marcellinojordybagaskara5939 I think that is Fake News
@@milosnikep07 no is real
@@marcellinojordybagaskara5939 Oh
I fly often, domestically and internationally, but if I knew, even at the gate, that I was going to board a 737 max I'd walk, even if it meant forfeiting my ticket.
@krigi I will give the plane one full year back in service with no glitches. I have to see it fly safely for a year before I'll believe in its integrity. If that occurs, I'll give it a high five.
@krigi Okay.
Luckily you don't have to worry about that at the moment because they're all still grounded.
And me
In flying, even if the aircraft is in perfect condition, its still rolling the dice. Pilot error, weather, ATC overworked, maintenance crews, re-fueling crews, just to name a few things. Flight from Salt Lake to Portland 2002, look out my window to see another 737 blasting out of a cloud, when they went by, i saw both their captain and FO heads whip to see us. Yes, that god damned close!! Their plane was at a slight angle to our flight path, another fraction of a second sooner into our flight, well, i wouldn't be writing this. Its all luck when we survive these airplanes, just luck.
I’m not ever flying again, after watching these videos. I’m not trusting my life with technology that can malfunction and cost me my life.
After watch this, go watch ferry sinking, car crashing, train wreck ... you'll ended up never leave your home. Even then, there's possibility gas leaking, slippery bathroom floor, electric malfunction causing burning the house.
@@bendegorro754 i can Rambo my way out of most of what u said, I cannot Rambo my way out 10,000 ft in the air. No thanks, I’m not ever flying again and I stand by that!!
@@welcometotheshow5247 good luck ramboing your way off a sinking ferry you twazzock
@@welcometotheshow5247 waaste miistake doesnt realize that these are less than a fraction of flight incidents and how safe flying is compared to everything else. Bro also doesnt even realize the amount of planes in the air right now
I couldn't even imagine how everybody felt on board this plane omg crazy 😥
I was flying with the same plane lion 737 max from CGK Jakarta Soekarno Hatta to bdj syamsudinur airport banjarmasan
Probably like "oh shit"
P
Yea, between praying and deciding which fate would be worse than the other (Diving into water or land) I can only imagine. If you have an opportunity, on Amazon Prime there's a recreation from flight ✈️ 93 on 911 that shares their last moments aboard before 😢 Some family members have assisted in sharing their last day with their loved ones along with voice-mail mesgs that were left if they missed their calls. I pray to our Father in Heaven, that he brings a calm & they don't have to experience an overwhelming amount of fear. *Keeping the loved ones who lost someone in this accident uplifted in prayer 🙏🏽🥀
P
MCAS : May Crash Any Second
Pilots should be able to identify then turn off the software causing malfunction. They should be acknowledged with every single detail added by the manufactures.Computers can't beat Human judgement with experience and training most of the time esp if unusual happens. Manual option should be present semiautomatic is best for safety and comfort.
@hawkturkey I guess they have to take extra steps when so many lives are involved. Or remove it as it's causing more harm then good what's the use then, how many more accidents to prove it's not doing any advancement in safety. A single should be more then enough.
@@moodmeditation4458 Before you judge, watch this: ua-cam.com/video/OxPsxmU_ocI/v-deo.html
@@moodmeditation4458 100% boeings fault
@@moodmeditation4458 There were problems with some max jets here in America and those planes did not crash. Out pilots were older and more experienced and knew what to do. Those people are safe. Still. I don't like, nor trust computers.
Fact: The video is longer than how long flight 610 lasted.
oh my god
Imagine being in a plane and suddenly it pitches down and up oh hell no
Holy shit
Well damn, chilling thought. At least it was all over quickly though...
Indeed. The flight of Lion Air 610 lasted about 12 minutes.
When your having that much trouble , It's time to return to base .
I still remember when the accident occurred. I was at school with my friend, waiting for class to begin. Suddenly I hear a plane up above and catch a glimpse of the red tail told my friend (because in my school I'm the only one that love aviation so much) "oh look a Lion Air B737". Little did I know, it was the doomed PK-LQP.
Thats sad... Last moments.. 😢
It's a damned shame.... These systems should be thoroughly tested and perfected, long before one passenger is allowed to board the aircraft.
Instead Boeing rushed it just to compete with the Airbus A320neo BC money matters more than human lives... Smh...
I still prefer permanent design change than software fix for design flaw
@@Armor23OnPatrol This particular plane had many issues. I cannot understand why Lion Air maintenance put it back into service. It's their responsibility to ensure all of the avionics are tested, and working correctly before putting it back into service. To me, this all looks very suspicious. I can't believe they are so incompetent. Something tells me this was sabotage. 38 Civil Servants on board. Hmm.. www.airlineratings.com/news/highly-respected-aviation-experts-critical-lion-air-pilots-crash-report/
Armor23OnPatrol 7
Wow, I didn't know that FO suggested returning at first trouble, but the captain ignored. But who knows, maybe the plane would not make it back safely either and would crash in residential area killing more people.
Flying is safe
At the first sign of any instrument failure, "Hey Tower! I AM coming back now. I'll land on a Ferris Wheel if I have to, but I am not being up here."
@@kaihunlu2345 Not sure if you are aware but getting the plane up and having time to decipher is the right call even if they decide to return back. This is not a sports car to make a U turn and come back within seconds.
@@sred5856 If I were flying alone, ok, but seeing some problem while carrying hundreds of people, I'd go back. But I also probably wouldn't have a job long due to this.
@@kaihunlu2345 Even carrying hundreds of people, just turning back Is not practical. Remember the flight right before this one experienced the same problem, they troubleshooted for a while and then were given a suggestion by a 3rd pilot in the jump-seat to turn off the AP and Stab trim and they hand flew the plane the rest of the way, no problem. In the scenario's where the pilots took some time, fought the problem for a while and ultimately figured out the problem and everything went well afterwards, nobody is criticizing them for not returning immediately.
Boeing "quietly" installed mcas to compensate for the engines, knowing they could always blame the pilots and/or mechanical problems if the planes crashed.
I've seen several documentaries on this Laura and there's a lot of finger pointing going on at ALL levels. Seems the competition from Airbus drove Boeing to cut a few corners (and that's putting it mildly) - not even bothering to tell the pilots, put a note in the training manual, telling the operators or even (as I've noted above) putting a redundant backup in there. Hell, that's why we have two of pretty much everything on large commercial airliners and even many smaller planes.
Well all the airlines are going down the pan due to lockdown, and I’m glad . Maybe when they come back they can be safer !!!
@@karenhunt805 they’re never coming back, DA
You shouldn’t try to compensate a bad design with software. Period.
just like ford's dual clutch transmission designs
You actually just plain can't take the "bad" out. You can limit what is requested to safe levels, etc., but you can't pluck out bad.
Agreed
It seems to me that if and aircraft cannot be safely hand flown it should not be certified. Pilots were never told MCAS even existed. This thing's a POS, should have the airworthiness certification pulled pending FCS redesign and thorough flight testing. Software fix my ass.
Not a bad design. Its a different design that has pilots do training. The simple solution is to inform pilots of mcas so they can turn it off. Should'nt require training in that case.
It took one long years to identify MCAS was the reason for plane to crash by putting the plane nose down automatically and pilot did his job by climbing up and up again. How could one conclude a report by saying its a pilot error when he is not aware of the reason for flight nose coming down by itself.
I think there’s a medium. The plane shouldn’t have been having these problems. The pilots should have recognized that this type of flying was not possible so short after take off and should have returned to the airport. Especially with the discrepancies between the F/O and Captain’s instruments.
@@Mobius1314 Do you believe the despatcher agree to cancel the flight?? When the previous day night flight was successfully landed even after having this kind of similar issue. The pilots are forced to tackle such issues if arises by mental pressure from operators rather than thinking about aborting the flights. They have nothing to do with this kind of external pressures like enquiries that why the captain decided to abort the flight in between and if he don't provide clear reason he may face termination or demotions. Hence here captain wanted to avoid such enquiries and tried to find out the issues but unable to do so and by the time they think about going back everything finished sadly.
sathish kumar Passenger safety always comes first regardless of whether the aircraft landed the previous night or not.
@@Mobius1314 The carrier has to think about it, if pilot does request for emergency landing he must be able to provide exact details why he requested to do so, in this case pilot was unaware of the reason for this misreading and they are trying to find the reason to report to the panel if they had to request for emergency landing
@P Whippany - When I watch sport on tv I often say "I would've ran a bit faster", "I would've caught that ball" or "I would've driven a bit faster through that corner" etc - but I'm joking. I sincerely wish I could believe that you are too.
"Those two moron pilots", and the other two who LOST THEIR LIVES in an uncontrollable 737 MAX, did exactly what they were trained to do - including, in the case of the other two 'morons', following the advice of the AD issued after this crash which simply reintroduced the instability MCAS was designed to correct.
Had Boeing originally disclosed the nature of this inherent instability at high - but within the normal flight envelope - angles of attack, these 'morons' would've followed the procedure known to Boeing's test pilots and regained control (provided they then avoided high angles of attack). Had Boeing subsequently disclosed it in the AD circulated after these 'morons' lost their lives, the other two 'morons' would've recognised the inherent instability they experienced while following that procedure as NOT the original issue, and not re-engaged the auto-trim that allowed MCAS to override their control inputs and eventually put them into an unrecoverable, high-speed dive.
I hope that in the future you re-visit your comment, having armed yourself with the knowledge that, at the time of your comment, was already in the public domain if you took the time to research it instead of 'shooting from the hip', and feel deeply ashamed of your disgraceful 'morons' accusation.
RIP to the 346 victims of Boeing's profit-motivated non-disclosure, including the 4 'morons' who followed their training to the letter - under extreme pressure that you and I could probably not imagine in our worst nightmares.
Thank you so much for making these videos for all of us. You put in so much effort , time , and hardwork to make these videos. It is a long , time consuming job . I can’t thank you enough for all your hardwork. I wish you continued success and hope you keep getting more and more viewers.
Finally, Boeing found guilty and charged more than $2.5 billion
Yeah because of the latest incident on sriwijaya air
@@K2KOfcoursegg nope, it because ethiopian accident that sealed 737 max fate. i remember when boeing try to accuse knkt (indonesian ntsc) for being make abysmal investigation.
fyi, the sriwijaya air one are the older variant, 737-500
@@francelonelo9187 before the Sriwijaya incident they were also charge but when sriwijaya incident comes they been charge more
@@K2KOfcoursegg no it's not. Otherwise give us your source
@@miltonalex5928 Tribun news that’s the channel of the video and i can’t find it anymore because there is many vid about this incident
IMO if the captain & F/O were having different readings, why continue the flight ?? not to mention the issues on PREVIOUS flight. That plane should of never taken off.
Planes have returned to the airport as soon as it became apparent that something wasn't right. Can't believe the company still sent that aircraft back up after the previous incidents.
@@Cissy2cute I heard a FSDO safety officer/pilot mention his distrust of foreign pilot training.
@@REDMAN298 There was a debate under another video (wish I could remember which one) about foreign training with quite a few mentioning that it was not comparable to those of the West, so to speak. Since there might be a pilot shortage, one wonders that if true, how this is going to effect this situation.
@@Cissy2cute The most insane thing is that the flight crew on the previous flight completely failed to mention the uncommanded stabilizer movements. They mentioned other related issues like IAS disagree but not the biggest issue. Lion Air safety culture is a joke.
@@ghstark I made mention several times of the flight training and much lower certification time and methods. The United States requires 1,500 hours of flight time to earn your ATP license. A higher standard than any nation. The F/O had 200 hours total flight time yet was serving as a first officer. I'm a captain and I have almost 20,000 hours accumulated. Once again, we have about 28 of these aircraft within the fleet. Not one of us had issues of this nature. Southwest is the second largest operator of the 73 800. No issues either. Run away trim is also a scenario that is delt with in proper training. Knowing the proceedure would have saved both aircraft.
Stop demonizing Boeing. Failures and unknowns happen on all aircraft. Boeing has the best safety record of any manufacturer. There are more Boeing aircraft in commercial service than any other. At the end of the day we as crew see safety as paramount as our lives are on the line as well. If
we feel the aircraft is unsafe we're certainly not going to fly it. Tragically, some design flaws don't become evident until there is a failure.
Though I do not desire to, I can only imagine what those poor souls were thinking during this erratic fatal flight.
Great job putting this documentary together. Appreciate the hard work.
will be interesting to see how people view this plane when it returns to service. You would think that the "fix" will be so thoroughly thought out and tested, that it would be very safe....considering Boeing's future depends on it.
RIP TO ALL PASSENGERS AND THE CREW 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Thankyou TFC to created this video
🙏🙏🙏
You could have just fit that onto a single line.
yes
Rest in peace.
An utter nightmare
Pray God among and bless us
Whoever engineers these videos does a fantastic job.
Watching these is like drinking,...sometimes one doesn't know when to stop. Now I understand what "binge watching" videos is. Haha
MCAS=Money Comes Above Safety
Ironically Boeing lost billions due to these accidents
The American way, FAA and Boeing = keep the money rolling in for corporate America.
@@steviesevieria1868 Did you read the comment above or?
Damn
Here's an idea. Lets go to boeing's channel and paste this comment on their videos. As a reminder.
I almost cried with the video thinking of being a passenger in that moment, too sad. All those lifes..:(
I can't imagine anything worse Than being an ATC who realizes why he's no longer in contact with the crew ..🙁
Being a family member of one of the passengers seems worse. I can imagine a lot of things worse but maybe my imagination is just better.
I remember hearing about the crash when it happened (im indonesian btw) everyone in school talked about it and everyone speculated the reason of the crash. From bombs to pilot error and the weirdest one i heard, someone used their phone mid flight
“Should we land?”
“Nah let’s just play around & see what happens”
The second they had discrepancies with air speed I would have returned and landed
That was brand new machine. It is hard to doubt on the shiny plane's reliability.
Easier said than done however. Once you get an unreliable airspeed indication all sorts of weird stuff can start to happen. I imagine they wanted to proceed very very carefully. There have been times when a plane had an erroneous airspeed indication, and it made the airspeed low and stalled warnings go off simultaneously, that's enough to make anybody go boggle.
That’s exactly what they tried to do
Yes I agree with you first sign of trouble I would have declared a emergency landing, I don't know the pilots were thinking.
COMPTOONMAN wasn’t it at v1 when they noticed problem v1 is last chance for canceled take off once they hit v2 they have to take off
The sad part is that the situation could possibly have been controlled if the crew applied the memory items and deactivated the automatic trim function on the yoke. If that was done , MCAS wouldn’t have any authority but the aircraft would have to be flown manually and trimmed using the trim wheel on the console . The pilots did not recognize the problem. It is a tragedy that 346 people had to die because of Boeing making unfounded assumptions about MCAS. Will the MAX be allowed to fly again? At this point it is anyone’s guess.
if a company's mega profit item so of course it will fly and of course more people will die. just like all their previous designs that constantly crashed that costed thousands of lives over the years.
Woah woah woah... you mean to tell me that the previous flight with this aircraft had the thing going like a rollercoaster and the next day they still took peoples money and pilled them into it? That sounds like a cause of negligent homicide to me.
The airline knew the aircraft had issues and still chose to use the plane despite the previous crew raising an issue
yes, it was somehow a crew from a pretty popular indonesian reality show called "katakan putus"
@@stoje8405 meaning??? jump on, sit down and pray?
I don't understand two issues. 1. Why the plane did not immediately return to the airport of departure. 2. Why did the pilot not land the plane at sea.
This company should be sued back to the stone age and the people who pushed it through should be sent to prison for life.
@@whytho5196 What was his severance package? USD28 million?
It still angers me that Boeing knew
@Polly Ester: Boeing: US regulator admits 'mistake' over aircraft crashes www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50750746
@Julian Crooks Somewhat reminiscent of the criminal negligence committed by Omni Consumer Products when they created the ED-209 Enforcement Droid with a known glitch. A glitch that cost the life of a junior executive. Damn that Dick Jones!
Julian Crooks As per report in UK newspaper I quote at a court hearing in US yesterday someone from AA is quoted at giving figures for how many could die on Max without its fix. The figures are shocking he said over its 45 year perhaps lifespan you could average every 3 years a fatality .in that case say 157 like died in Max every 3years for 45 years it comes to 2335 divided by 45 its roughly 51people dieing a year
I wish I could get my hands on this report it was at the hearing at the house transportation safety committee Mr Peter DeFazio google it ❤️✈️🇬🇧🇺🇸😂
private companies goal is money. nothing else.
Experience pilots on Boeing aircraft also know when the big wheel by your knee is spinning and clattering, your trim is moving. They know how to react and FLY THE PLANE.
Thanks flight channel for providing really clear information, explanation, and for picturing it really well.
There should be a button on all planes that you can push that gives the pilot full control of the plane so he can FLY THE PLANE.
Exactly! there is its called autopilot/mcas off
Too complex, sorry
no no no, you're not using your brain at all. Think about it. If the pilots were allowed to have full control of the airplane, how would the plane be able to savagely crash itself and murder everybody? That is the plane's right, and you can't take it away. It simply isn't fair.
@@UseADamnCoaster LOL I actually thought you were gonna say a real reason why the pilots cant take full control of the plane i did not expect that turn of events.
There is tho.
I flew on the max twice with Jet Airways. The first time I was excited to be on the new plane from Delhi to Goa. The second time was after this Lion Air incident and I was very nervous.
Rightfully so, it turns out. Cant imagine flying on this plane in the future.
they continued to fly 737 max after flight 610? And you got on it? Jesus dude....
@@tpstrat14 the ban came after the Ethiopian airlines crash. Still absolutely scary
@canusdominici may I ask if anything felt strange? I read reports from passengers on other Max flights that they had felt as if the plane struggled to gain altitude - this was prior to the Lion Air crash so they wouldn't have known about any issues at this point, just that the plane felt like it struggled.
@@GenericaQwerty Absolute nonsense!
After the second plane crashed, didn't Boeing immediately claim that there were no similarities between the two crashes?
Both were MCAS failure. but the secound crash they have dissabled the MCAS. but way too late to recover from the divd
boeing lye
Many similarities between Boeing and the US government... A nose dive out of control...
@@jossdionne9810 What you know about either entity could fit in a thimble.
@@idesofmarch2368 That doesn't make him wrong.
No disrespect, but it amazes me that all these years later, with SO much information now available about Boeing's DIRECT RESPONSIBILITY for these accidents, that people still speculate about 'pilot error'.
Had that been the case, all that would have happened is more comprehensive training.
Go do some reading, it's now well documented what a *bean counting, corner cutting death trap* this version of the Max was, and how radically different it has become post grounding.
Eg
MCAS has now been restricted to 1.5deg as originally specd before Boeing increased it without FAA approval
MCAS can no longer continually, dangerously deflect the stab - it operates ONCE
MCAS is no longer dependent on just one AoA sensor
And that's just scratching the surface.
Yes and anyone with an eye for design can see this airplane looks a lot like the Reindeer of Jimmy Stewart days.(No HHighway in the Sky Marlena Deitrich) . I thought the DC 10 would be that airplane because of the shortcut Douglas took tin mounting Engine #2 on top of the tail assembly tinstead of routed into the airframe as in the Lockheed L-1011. But it was the cargo door that cut the hydraulics. In this cluster **** of an airplane, Boeing took the old 737 airframe and just stuck those huge engines up and forward and it looks as if a child had designed it.
Been watching this series during Halloween, far more scarier than ghosts movies
As the captain demonstrated, it was possible to counter the effects of the MCAS by commanding noseup trim whenever the MCAS commanded nose down trim. We'll probably never know why first officer allowed the aircraft to become progessively out of trim to the point where it was no longer controllable, especially as returning an aircraft to neutral trim is pretty much instinctive for pilots.
This is not to relieve Boeing of blame, of course, since the crew should never have been put into that situation.
You are right Sylvia. When the co-pilot took control, the disaster became set. Maybe if first officer had a few more seconds to figure out, he might have gotten it right. Pilots are human so have different reaction time, etc. Maybe the captain should have instructed better to use the auto-trim during the handoff. Maybe the co-pilot was doing something else just then. Unfortunately they just didnt have the time and altitude in their favor. Maybe a few extra seconds was what separated the crash and a return back!
You'd think we live in a day and a age where this should never happen. It's almost like we're living in the past.
Thats the results of making things far to complicated.
In the past engineers had more brain than now.. Now they have a software for everything..
People have to get paid, so they will constantly and continually screw with and try to "improve" things forever, even on very reliable systems. Sometimes this creates products that are worse than where they were before. It's this way in every industry, but is especially obvious in engineering and computer software.
Why would you think that..? We might be the most advanced species on this planet but in terms of advanced technology we haven't even scraped the surface. You've deluded yourself if you think things like this shouldn't still happen, we're nowhere even close to preventing such disasters in our society.
This was no accident what so ever, rather downright murder due Boeing did so many ''mistakes'' in order to produce Maxs as cheap as possible for example;
1- Instead of designing a new aircraft they just placed bigger engines on an old design to cut costs but the ''new'' aircraft had balance issues they didn't care.
2- To make Maxs more profitable for airlines they faked evidence as it's flight characteristics were same as 737s so pilots wouldn't need simulator training which cost a lot of money and time..
3- But Max's characteristics were different than 737s indeed and it was stalling in lower angel of attack than 737s so for preventing pilots stalling Maxs while trying to fly same as how they flied 737s Boeing added a ninja system to control AOA and prevent possible stalls..
4- And even if this was already murder anymore they even pushed it further and somehow ''decided'' a single sensor was enough for this MCAS system as pilots could disable it if something goes wrong!! But the problem was because they lied as it had same characteristics pilots didn't receive proper training at first place and couldn't act properly in such a senario even then they somehow managed to blame pilots which is a total joke in every way..
If this was done by Airbus there were hundreds of billions dolar fines flying around by now but because it is Boeing US does everything in order to postpone fines as much as possible so Boeing could get enough time to brace for impact!! Even then nobody should fool themselves as Boeing will get record breaking fines soon or later...
Anyone else here cause you saw downfall? Very interesting video, so sorry for all the lost people in both crashes
Great as your videos always are, thank you so much! In this one i just couldnt help but notice the improvement in graphics... What sim is this?
Thank you for making this video with additional displays of the aircraft's direction and altitude. This incident still breaks my heart, can't believe it's been more than a year. May people on board JT610 rest in peace, and their families stay strong. 🥺
They should’ve turned back to the airport the minute they noticed something was wrong
This should be a precaution especially if it's something the pilots have no idea about.
They can't just doing u turn taxiing on active runway.
Poise They had to gain control of the plane before they could attempt a landing...which they never had. Did you see the city around the airport? Without having control of the plane, attempting a landing of an out of control plane would not just have cost the lives on the plane but all the lives on the ground where they crashed.
Did you notice the plane was randomly pointing towards the ground?
I would have contacted the tower the moment the stick shaker activated upon rotation. Didn't sound like there was good communication between the Captain & FO.
Thank you theflightchannel, I've always been enjoy watching your video, until you came up with this one. And my mom was there . do u guys know what is the saddest part? My mom was on flight from bali to jkt then head up to pangkal pinang... like idk how it feel anymore ffsㅠㅠ and after waiting 2 years, this video explains the details of the JT610 crash
I remember seeing the news on tv after school. I couldn't believe how fast the plane crashed after take off
Edit: another airplane accident in Indonesia. My deepest condolences to the family members
i was at school when reading this news but i don't know why tf i was like "huh?" but then when ET302 crashed it was same, i was at school and went pretty shocked tho, time gap is so near
Same i was in school when that happened and it was a rainy day on pangkalpinang
At the time after the crash
an addition; one civil servants from indonesian ministry of environment and forestry also became a victim in the accident. he's my father's friend.
edit: thanks for all of your prayers. may he and all of the victims rest in peace 🙏
Reza Andrian I‘m sorry 😔
I'm sorry for your lost man
Dammit, that was hard ....
and today my father will take a flight from balikpapan to jakarta. hope everything's gonna be okay guys 🙏.
Innalillahi wainnailaihi rojiun..
Thank you TFC . When the news came out about this crash I was so heartbroken. I was just getting back into being interested about aviation and that set my hope down.
Have a flight tomorrow. 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Be safe
Hey! Have a safe journey
Happy journey! Where are you flying, if I may ask?
Stay safe
Just remember that all studies and research prove that flying is the safest mode of transportation. Who knows, you may be one of the best pilots in the world if safety is your priority!
Anything that has the word "automatic" in front is scary. I can only imagine when cars really get to drive themselves, with SW written by kids or summer students.... It is very difficult to write code that can deal well with sensor malfunctions in a resilient manner.
Well they can't do any worse than humans, so far we kill over 1 million people per year globally due to recklessness or being unfit to drive.
I knew pilots from SW. They said the regular 737 drove like a race car. The MAX drove like a minivan.
"MCAS was designed to rely on a single AOA sensor..."
I'm sure there was at least one competent person in the room who flagged this as a potential problem during a meeting. They should've listen to him/her.
And if there wasn't then maybe Boeing should take a break for a while.
Exactly. How do you not compensate for a potentially faulty censor?
@Joey Dugo
Dual redundancy has always been the standard in commercial aviation at the major manufacturers....something really went wrong here.
There was at least one whistleblower who flagged this problem before the crash according to the ongoing reports in the New York Times.
All systems on a jet aircraft are usually triple redundant. This type of engineering is criminal.
I’m a captain at a US major airline and fly the 737. One bit of information which might surprise everyone is the number (2). Two pounds of pressure is the difference between the Max and NG aircraft near a stall in the landing configuration; meaning it was two pounds more the pilot feels when recovering from a stall in the Max, thus the MCAS was developed to maintain the correct feel for the pilot during this phase of flight for the certification process. The MCAS introduces trim to make the horizontal stab move to relieve the extra two pounds. Relying on one AOA with no backup system is idiotic. It’s the job of aircraft manufacturers to build in redundancy on aircraft.
And its the job of the FAA to oversee that the Airlines are doing their job. FAA - Boeing -Lion - they all failed in some manner.....does it really matter who failed more?? well the answer is actually yes.....had the FAA done its job ensuring redundent systems adequacy.....even if Boeing and Lion screwed up......a pilot would have been able to override failed systems providing redundency,
If we’re talking about landing configuration, then I’m confused. I thought the MCAS only triggers when flaps are at 0.
Tom...you are correct concerning the MCAS only operates with the flaps at 0 degrees. In my previous post I am simply stating that planes are certified and have perimeters set forth whereby a plane within a “family” has to not only have similar systems but has to feel the same to a pilot. So because the plane had a slightly different feel either because of the extra thrust or the placement of the engines on the MAX it necessitated the creation of a system that would automatically trim the horizontal stab to minimize the control surface pressure of which the pilot would experience when stalling the plane. The MCAS intervenes when the plane is approaching a stall. Because the computer or the angle of attack device failed the plane received a false stalled indication. The plane was not actually stalling, although the computer was telling the plane it was; thus, the MCAS gave input that was aggressive and violent. The faster the airplane flew the stronger the control input was needed to change the planes attitude. The pilots were fighting a force far stronger than they could manage and it worsened with time.
@@gfree4244 I appreciate your explanation as you articulate it very well.
The area I was seeking clarification is your mention of “...the MCAS was developed to maintain the correct feel for the pilot during this phase of flight for the certification process.”, and I interpreted ‘this phase of the flight’ as ‘landing’ based on what you say in a previous sentence. But when landing, I would think, flaps would not be 0. Perhaps I am not correct in assuming that.
I hope I don’t come across as argumentative-I genuinely want to understand. Which phase of the flight is MCAS designed to assist? Am I mistaken in even thinking about it that way?
I fly C172s and a 1971 model M handles the same as a 2005 model S, so I don’t really have experience with same types handling differently, or what exactly that means for getting a feel for the plane.
When the first one crashed I actually had a feeling that it would happen again. I didn't even look at reports or anything, just heard about it.
The fact that this aircraft tried to nose dive dozens of times with no audible or visual warnings to the crew is frightening beyond words. Every time the captain countered, it silently trimmed nose-down seconds later. It did so again and again, relentlessly. It’s like the plane had an evil, conscious intent to kill and leave no survivors. Absolutely terrifying.
I have to wonder: did the pilot ever think or say, "Why does it keep doing that? How do I get it to stop?"
@@jjohnston94 Yes, that is why he kept resetting the trim after the MCAS set it to erroneous settings.
The MCAS scandal is, IMO, the single craziest thing to ever happened in the industry. The industry has been working for a century in EXACTLY the opposite direction. The efforts that have been made in aircraft safety point in a certain direction in several key areas. Basically, a tremendous effort has been made on everything being redundant, when it comes to information fed to either the pilots or automated systems, always information must come from two sources, always fail safe, never do anything without informing everyone in the crew, and don't introduce changes to an aircraft without proper re-certification. Whenever automation has been implemented, the focus has always been on this particular disastrous scenario: A computer blindly trusting certain information and making a mistake, and a computer telling the pilots "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't let you do that". The amount of fear-mongering that Boeing spread after Airbus introduce the A320 was INSANE, even though Airbus had done pretty much everything right. In the end, after so much care was taken in that direction, it ended up being Boeing, the master of "our aircraft don't change", the master of "your pilots don't need to recertify", the FAA's and NTSB's golden boy, whose rhetoric has always been KISS, and who has always made fun of Airbus and other manufacturers for being too technological, and pointing out how "the pilots are the ones in control on a 737", who finally introduced that dreaded scenario. And it's costed us human lives.
And it ended up being not some crazy complex scenario in which the autopilot does something crazy in a very specific situation. Nope, rather something super simple and straightforward. An error in AOA readings causing an erroneous nose-down correction is like the 101 of "test your damn automation".
Worst of all is HOW this all happened. It's all part of Boeing's history of "no, we will not redesign this airplane". The 737 has been a pile of hacks Boeing installed on top of an already obsolete design. The second the FAA saw Boeing trying to retrofit larger engines on an obsolete design all those years ago, and all the crazy shit they did to make that work, they should've told Boeing to fuck off and go back to the drawing board. It's what they would've told Airbus, or MCD, or any other manufacturer. But, of course, not Boeing, because politics.
This error can be traced back step by step all the way back to the 80s and the 737s truly odd nacelle shape. That's when the FAA should've told Boeing to fuck off and redesign their aircraft. Instead, they let them keep going. And they did, all the way to the MAX's oddly shaped, oddly mounted engines, and all the problems they brought. So instead of finally saying "yeah, we can't keep putting larger engines on this piece of shit 50 year old technology, let's design something new", they tried to fix a hardware problem on software.
In the IT industry, we have a saying for this: "Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers", as part of a longer saying about the three major threats a system faces: A programmer with a screwdriver, a technician with a software patch, and a user with an idea.
Boeing tried to do something we've all known shouldn't be done for 50 years: Fixing hardware problems in software. And a whole lot of people died because of that. Worst part is, had the FAA shown the kind of bias they had towards MCD, or Aerospatiale, or any other manufacturer, towards Boeing, they would've grounded the 737s after the first incident. They didn't, and it wasn't until China and Europe told them to fuck off that they decided to do something. So we should add one item to that listing: Should be programmers with screwdrivers, mechanics with software patches, users with ideas, and politicians in safety boards.
A320neo is about the same kind of hack, which is really to say that it isn't a hack. Fly-by-wire software also allows some odd aerodynamic quirks to be corrected in software, and it's quite probable that Airbus is doing similar because it completely makes sense to adjust feel in software.
@@AmbientMorality Not comparable at all. The A320 was designed for fly by wire from the beginning. That is what the aircraft does. So it's not really solving hardware problems in software, it's that that in its entirety is the domain of software. The computers have always been flying the plane, and the pilots send input to the computers. Instead the 737 is not fly by wire, never was, never will be. It's computer-assisted, which is quite different. The MAX changed *some* things to fly by wire, such as the spoilers, but not everything else. MCAS is not fly by wire, trim is still manually controlled, and MCAS is an augmentation. Think of cars. Initially we had purely mechanical steering. Then hydraulic steering was introduced, then electric, but it's all still mechanically linked. Even Tesla's steering is mechanically linked, then assisted, then computer-assisted. Also, the A320 is a moder modern design, and it never had ground-clearance issues, so they never needed to change anything to retrofit new engines. The engines are mounted in the exact same place as in the old one, and there was no need for an odd-shaped nacelle because it had enough ground clearance to begin with.
Think of MCAS as the modern implementation of a very simple system that many large aircraft have used quite safely for many decades....a stick pusher. Boeing's only mistake was to presume that a crew would recognise a problem with nose down trim being commanded erroneously as a stabiliser trim issue, refer to FRC's & disable it when a problem occurred; rather than what these two crews did....extremely poor CRM, fought the trim problem over & over again, ignored the stabiliser checklists until far too late & didn't fly the aircraft at a safe manual-trimming speed. By the time they did get their shit together & did the correct (simple) recovery actions it was too late; they were going far too fast & in an irrecoverable dive.
@@wirdy1 The big difference is that a stick pusher activation is a VERY visible action, it can be overpowered by the pilot, and can be disengaged easily.
That said, I do agree the pilots reacted absolutely poorly. It sounds unbelievable that with such control issues, after stick shaker activation on take off, and a very visible airspeed disagree, they didn't decide to return immediately.
MCAS or no MCAS, it's a trim runaway, it's something every pilot should train for, and they should've been able to handle it.
MCAS has been around for many years, used in military transport aircraft. The problem is the single angle of attack sensor, with no redundancy.
This is my new favorite channel. These works are highly appreciated and very detailed. Keep up the good work!
The cause of this, and the other 737MAX crash was NOT due PILOT ERROR but instead Boeing's rush to get the 737 MAX certified in service by BOTH MANAGEMENT AND ENGINEERING allowing this aircraft into production without sufficient testing, design review, AND notification to the flight crew of MCAS along with the reliance on "just ONE Angle Of Attach sensor for MCAS control.!!!
This should have been viewed as "criminal negligence" and both Management and Engineering at Boeing should have been help at fault and should have been prosecuted, jailed, and fined AND not given a Golden Parachute as they received.!!! The cause of the crash should not be "Pilot Error" either on both crashes.!!!
I also expect this post will probably be deleted/removed in the future...
@L6915 You have not a clue about how aircraft really word do you? Didn't think you did.!!!!
@L6915 Sounds like your Boeing employee number. Haha.
Always welcome
Rodger Wiese Read the preliminary accident report Concentrate of the speed setting and the cycling of MCAS contrary to the checklist. 🤷♂️
Why would your post be removed?
I heard boeing didnt put the MCAS in the manual so pilots didnt know it existed
I remember when these accidents occurred and Boeing came under a lot of fire because they offered warning lights for MCAS and AOA malfunctions, but they cost extra. Neither the Lion Air or Ethopian Airlines flight had these extras installed.
That's really salt in the wound, and would incline me to avoid flying in Boeings in the future.
As soon as the impairment was noticed in the FD's they should have returned immediately to the airport.
I agree. They shouldn't have just kept correcting the problem. If the aircraft isn't 100%, land it.
For real. I would've turned back as soon as possible. Yes, it is a priority to get passengers to their destination quickly, but it's also a priority to KEEP THEM ALIVE!
@UltralightFlyer
As soon as there was disagreement between airspeed sensors before V.1 I would have aborted, even if it meant I would have rolled to the very end of the runway.
that plane had serious issues in previous flights, yet the Captain just shrugged it off
@@exoraturbo25 Absolutely! The instruments are paired for a reason. Any difference between the two and you park the bus!
When you see the first problem, just try to land the damn thing back at the first opportunity. That should be the SOP. Ponder the problem from the ground. Don't do a holding pattern and investigate from up in the air. Don't make the passengers guinea pigs of some high altitude experiment they didn't sign up for!
Jesus christ. Have you ever flight a plane before ? I know i never have but surely you can't just land the plane when something goes wrong. MCAS activated when it's taking off . THE PLANE IS CONTROLLING ITSELF WHEN THAT HAPPENS.
@@gb7586 i agree
I actually like and appreciate how the video fades out just before the moment the incident occurs, without trying to re-enact it. I find that very respectful. 😊
They probably did that to make the scene look cleaner, because they don't do that with other videos
First day of flight training in a C-152:
1. This is how you start the engine.
2. This is how you take off.
3. Time to practice stalls.
Boeing: These professionals with thousands of flight hours might forget how to avoid a stall - let's design a system that does it for them!
I may be wrong on this, but why didn’t they just abort their takeoff when they found inconsistent airspeed and AOA readings on their PFD?
Still mad at Boeing and the FAA for letting the plane continue production
Bryan Zhang I know not every body believe in GOD,but if they were meant to live they would have done exactly that,I guess it’s meant to be ☹️☹️
@@deanwinchester7649 What a twisted way of viewing things.
@@deanwinchester7649 i guess, but over 100 people at the same time?
There’s are points when you can abort a takeoff but not when you are lifting off.
@@zhangbryann God works in mysterious ways don't ya know? -_-
Corruption and oversight is the root cause.
Deregulation and conservationism are the cause. All those Republicans who are against regulation are murders.
69 like
Where exactly? In the US right? Inside Boeing
There is no oversight because of you. Because there is no oversight planes are crashing. Planes are no longer airworthy because you got rid of oversight. Your plan to make planes safe is to get rid of oversight when there is no oversight. The essence of corruption is to continue doing the something and expect different results. It is the reason that only a revolution will save lives.
@@andersjan25 Boeing isn't corrupt they are just following the rule passed by the Republican congress. Boeing is being rewarded by Republicans for killing people.
Wow, Soetta Airport does look like this if you see them in person, I'm amazed. Good job for the animation!!
He works really hard on every videos
Thank you for another amazingly well produced and documented video.
Fantastic video!! I really appreciate the time and effort you put on your videos for us to see them. The quality and visual effects are amazing. Can't wait for your next video! #TFCforever
Thank you for making this! Means alot to be informed visually about these planes.
I've been watching this video every single hour. It just reminds me of how sad these incidents are. RIP to all the passengers on board Flights 302 and 610
Could you imagine what the people who were preparing the flight must’ve felt after the accident? I mean, they saw the passengers board the plane. I can’t even begin to imagine what they felt.
This is what happens when accountants responsible only to the stock-holders are in charge. You can get away with this sh*t in the car industry (at least for a while) but you can *not* in their civilian airliners industry.
Yes, the world in a microcosm.
That is an nteresting comparison. In the a1970’s GM shifted power from design to finance (roger smith)
The company lost it’s way and still hasn’t recovered.
The night before it crash i genuinely excited coz im flying back home with lion air & i thought i was going to go on that new plane to soekarno airport i even took pictures of the plane but it turns out im going on a 738, but then when i read the news in the morning i almost throw up when i relize im seeing a dead plane the night before & the flight plan is going literally above me at my school at the time
Not sure how valid it is to put any blame on the pilots. A single non-redundant sensor sent their aircraft into treachery and "kill 'em all" mode. When the plane dives for the ground 10 times inside a 90 second window, there's not much time to do anything but aviate, much less navigate or communicate.
Have been addicted to these series..
Feels like now to sit next to the airplane window and observe what is happening and pray to ALLAH if you seem the time has come...!!
If its a night flight.. Then .....
For those who suggest that the pilots may be at fault here, or should have had better training (which I completely agree with), they were not told anything about this new system, let alone have access to any form of training.
This was entirely caused by Boeing execs, it was NOT the fault of pilots. I enjoy participating in these forums, but at the very least, please have actual facts in hand before offering comment.
So, why do I say this? Because the Boeing execs specifically refused to provide appropriate training, or even documentation on the 737 Max, as that would delay their target date for putting the Max in the market (they were encountering competition from AirBus, this was the response)
The software developed for the "failsafe" (and involuntary) control of the aircraft was designed in at the last moment . . . because the engine placements and nacelles had to be extended beyond their usual location, which translated into a center of gravity adjustment, and rather than completely redesign the airframe, they chose to rush in this software "correction" instead.
See anything wrong with this picture . . . maybe?
Charles, I agree that Boeing has the majority of the fault here, but, Pilot error is also present. The plane left the ground at 06:20 and immediately they got a "stick shaker". At 06:32 the tower lost contact with the plane. That is12 minutes where a lot of things WRONG happened and the pilot(s) did not immediately return to the airport.When they made the initial left turn at 900 feet they knew their instruments were wrong, they should have made the decision then to declare an emergency and return to the airport. I will bet, that if they had have done that, they would have been able to land and all would be alive today.
@@Bigplane1 but how could they land the plane if the airspeed and altitude indicator show different numbers? They already struggled to maintain their altitude... i thought they can perform emergency water landing, but that option is almost impossible too since they didnt know their exact position above the water thus they cant measure the impact
As a propilot with Decades of Airline service I would say firstly someone has to be flying the airplane and this means disconnecting the all the throttle and autopilot and if necessary flying power settings and Pitch angles. Obviously that automatic pitch trim switches need to be off. With the airspeed at a reasonable 230 knots working a problem all then that would have to be done would be using the manual trim wheel instead of the pickle switches. Case solved. Live to fly another day. Rest in peace to all those folks who lost their lives and their families prayer for comfort.
From the beginning, other than having the "stick shaker" it seemed to be manageable until they decidedto climb and continue. The stick shaker and the instrument readings being different from the pilot to the co-pilot should have been enough to make them circle low and land immediately. By doing this they would have had a visual reference to the ground and should have been able to complete the landing safely.
This accident wasn't entirely the fault of the pilots, true. Lion Air maintenance holds some of the responsibility as well.
MCAS? Very little.
A great listen for all the would-be accident investigators getting their information from sensationalist media is right here: www.flightsafetydetectives.com/e/lion-air-accident-report-analysis/
Former NTSB investigators John Goglia and Greg Feith go step by step through the Indonesian report on the Lion Air crash and it is very clear the Lion Air pilots flew a flyable aircraft into the ground.
The stick shaker started *on takeoff*, which is *not connected* to the MCAS system, which can't operate when the flaps are down. By the way, the previous crew had just flown the aircraft down from China with the stick shaker going off *THE ENTIRE FLIGHT*. Not listed in the accident investigation at all.
The FO suggested return to the airport, a reasonable choice given a stick shaker on takeoff, but the CA *did not agree*, and instead asked for a holding pattern to try and troubleshoot the problem. Contrary to many media misreports, they weren't on their way back and just failed to make it, they never even tried to come back. Why? The Flight Crew (pilots and back end crew) **DO NOT GET PAID** if they don't complete the flight. This is not mentioned in the accident investigation at all.
They give only the most cursory maintenance history of the aircraft, but fail to ask or investigate that why, with a *brand new aircraft*, did they replace the AOA sensor with an old one from a 739, out of a shop that has since had it's ticket pulled for poor work? Especially as a new, type-specific AOA indicator would have been shipped from Boeing for free. The old indicator was seemingly not calibrated, as it immediately registered a 20 degree difference to the other AOA indicator. This is not mentioned in the accident report as something of note.
Both pilots neglected to deactivate the auto-throttle and had the aircraft screaming along close to 370(!!!) kts at 8,000 feet. MCAS doesn't do that, has nothing to do with the throttle. This is not mentioned in the accident report as something of note.
The FO didn't know the required memory items for runaway stab trim, and so when the CA asked him to do them, he simply didn't. It took a minute for him to ask again, and ask why they hadn't been done, and the FO began to look them up in the QRH. Knowing these items by memory is a requirement to fly this aircraft, at least for US/EU pilots. MCAS didn't make the FO forget things he had trouble remembering in training, as the records show. This is not mentioned in the accident report at all.
MCAS did not activate until *six minutes* into the flight, and was successfully countered by the CA for *TEN MINUTES*. When it would command nose down, he would trim nose up and the system would deactivate. Plane kept flying. This happened several times, and he countered it every time, yet did not either follow the trim runaway procedures or even tell the FO what he was having to do! No CRM whatsoever! This is not mentioned in the accident report as something of note.
When the CA raised flaps he noted the aircraft ceased to pitch down, and MCAS did not activate as long as the flaps were down. Some time just prior to crash the flaps were raised, but by who and for what reason is unknown as neither pilot said they were doing it, it simply happened. As they were around the safety speed for Flaps 5 (again, screaming along at ~370 kts) it could have been aerodynamic forces or the FO, who is heard to be flipping pages in a book at this same time. At this time, the CA turned controls over to the FO, without explaining what he had do to earlier with a trim runaway, and the FO did not counter the MCAS. The aircraft crashed a minute later, screaming into the ground at takeoff thrust. The plane flew for 10 minutes with the MCAS activating, but crashed when the FO didn't counter it, and the CA and FO did not follow the trim runaway procedures.
The plane was flyable! It should never have been in the air, given the shoddy maintenance, but it was flyable. They did fly it, for 15 minutes, and only lost control when someone who shouldn't have been in the cockpit took over. Indonesia, in their report, simply blamed MCAS and then did their best to find evidence to back up that assertion.
This crash is nothing more than a CFIT due to poor maintenance and poor crew training. When Boeing builds an aircraft there is a certain expectation that the pilots flying it will be trained to do so, and the maintenance crews servicing it will do so properly. When this doesn't happen, it ceases to be their fault.
Words fail me. I certainly will never fly in one. A plane that needs software to fly level is simply bad design in my humble opinion.
The plane does not need software to fly level. That claim is fake news that sold a lot of newspapers and caused a lot of people to click on websites that were incorrectly making that claim. The 737MAX is completely stable without MCAS. The MCAS pitch augmentation control law was implemented on the 737 MAX to improve aircraft handling characteristics and decrease pitch-up tendency ONLY at elevated angles of attack. MCAS DOES NOT control the airplane in normal flight; it improves the behavior of the airplane in a non-normal part of the operating envelope. It only makes the airplane FEEL the same as other models of the 737 when it is being flown at elevated angles of attack that do not occur during a normal flight.
Listen to what this 737 pilot with 17 years experience flying the 737 says at approximately the 5:30
mark of this video:
Will the MAX fly again?!
ua-cam.com/video/cQ1DseELk-I/v-deo.html
All caused by moving the engines and making it less stable for money
@@michaelkuhn8929 Did you even bother to watch the video? Will the MAX fly again?!
ua-cam.com/video/cQ1DseELk-I/v-deo.html
This 737 pilot with 17 years experience flying the 737 can explain it to you but he can't understand it for you. You have to put in some effort!
95% of the responses on UA-cam videos on this subject are emotionally driven. Yes, it is horrible that so many people died in the 737MAX crashes. The way Boeing implemented MCAS in the 737MAX was definitely a factor. But the defining factor was how differently multiple pilots responded to a problem that was absolutely recoverable. Pilot error happened on the Lion Air flight 610 and on the Ethiopian Airlines flight 302. While technically investigators will rule that pilot error occurred and was a factor in both crashes, however, I personally would not fault the pilots but would fault the airlines for failing to train their pilots properly. Not knowing how to recover from "runaway stabilizer trim" and not knowing how to do it from memory is mind-boggling.
"runaway stabilizer trim" is NOT unique to the 737 MAX. It can occur in ANY aircraft that has an automated stabilizer trim system. (Autopilot that controls pitch)
Training for this "runaway stabilizer trim" is extremely basic. ALL pilots that fly aircraft with an automated pitch trim system train for this issue. On November 6th of this year (2019)a Republic Airways Embraer ERJ-175 (N117HQ) performing flight RPA4439/AA4439 from Atlanta KATL to New York KLGA experienced runaway trim that pushed the nose up until the plane was stalling. This happened initially at low altitude. The flight climbed to over 14,000 ft before the pilots regained control. Having the nose pushed up was exactly opposite of the problem caused by MCAS but the end result (slamming into the ground) would have been the same if the pilots had failed to regain control of their aircraft.
•Nov 8, 2019
[REAL ATC] Brickyard SUFFERS TRIM RUNAWAY | CONTROL ISSUES at Atlanta
ua-cam.com/video/RzoEsM0L2CM/v-deo.html
•July 2, 2015
Boeing 737 CL Runaway Stabilizer - BAA Training
ua-cam.com/video/3pPRuFHR1co/v-deo.html
@@rwj1313 Reading comments in videos related to this subject is usually pretty aggravating when I see people reacting with uneducated comments like "the 737 MAX is inherently unstable" or "the engines are so much more powerful that they make the plane pitch up". It's nice to know people like you that are knowledgeable on the subject actually take time to help people understand the intricacies of it all.
Thank you sir. I hope people take the time to educate themselves.
It doesn't need software to fly level. It doesn't need software at all.
May the passengers and crew of Lion Air flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines flight 302 RIP. ❤️❤️
MCAS: "Do you MIND, I'm trying to crash the plane!"
Grow up
@@sidefx996 who
@@sidefx996 @silverwheel or @Sami Khairan Rafa Putra Dermawan
That funny as hell 😂