I just had an insane idea. What if Havel originally was just a silver knight who fought the dragons in the war, came to admire their strength and attempted to mimic it by adorning himself in their scales and teeth and his faith in their unstoppable might, slowly taking on their characteristics. What if the anceint dragon underneath ash lake is actually havel the rock, the first to transform into a dragon and the founder of the dragon covenant. You find great magic barrier right next to it, talking to the dragon gives you an item that allows you to transform into a dragon, and you find havel knights all over archdragon peak, where you also get the dragon stones.
I think the better explanation is just that Havel was one of the gods who started imitating the dragons either as a recognition of their strength or as a jab toward Seath. He is an old battle compatriot of Gwyn, who we only know to have fought in 2 wars. He is never mentioned or associated in any way with the war against the demons, but he does have a weapon made from the remains of a dragon, implying he did participate in the war against them as Gwyn's ally (or rather as his subject). Him being a dragon who changed sides after the war doesn't hold up with the info we are provided. You could argue then that he was like Seath and changed sides before or during the war, but that doesn't hold up either. Seath is the only dragon singled out as a traitor in both the intro, descriptions, and dialogue. You would expect that if another archdragon with his own scales did that he would be mentioned in a similar manner. Plus, the Dragon Tooth in the Japanese text is specified to have been used as a great hammer by Havel himself. The implication seems to be that he was one of the silver knights (since they are the ones surrounding Gwyn during the intro) who at some point during or after the war looted the tooth and came to admire the might of their enemies and attempted to imitate it (something that we see in DS1, 2 and 3 happening) for the gods' purposes or for his personal distate for Seath. He also got a cult like other deities in the Anor Londo pantheon. This also justifies the rock-like/mountain-like wording. Havel's whole deal was that he imitated the power of dragons, so the script using similar terms for both isn't strange, or conducive to the conclusion of Havel being a dragon.
I do like the theory in the video, but I feel like it leaves a lot of questions. If we instead suggest that there was a guy called Havel who utilized dragon scales and trained his warriors in how to counter magic, not because he was a dragon, but precisely because he was extremely anti-dragon, and didn't trust seath, then it makes more sense. The appearance of Havel-related individuals and items in areas associated with dragons could imply that these warriors are still at it, and trying to get rid of every last bit of dragon influence.
This only adds up if you consider that all dragons are on the same team. Seath might be considered a traitor because he pretended to fight alongside Dragons, when he really sided with Gwyn. Dragon-Havel wouldn't be considered a traitor if he never fought alongside Dragons. And if he is really as big as a mountain, i'm sure Dragon-Havel wouldn't hesitate to assert dominance over them And we know that it was not unusual for Gwyn to side with dragons. Or rather use anyone, anything and any means necessary to prevent the fall of his age
@@eowade9211 It's fair to assume most dragons were on the same team since Seath is repeatedly singled out as a traitor for turning against them as a whole. Plus, dragon-Havel would still be a traitor for turning against his own, just like Seath is explicitly accused of doing. It's not a matter of having picked sides before the conflict, Seath was a dragon and turning against them makes him a traitor, independently of when he did that. Also, Havel is NEVER compared to a mountain. The dead archdragon of Archdragon Peak is the one who is "mountain-like", while Havel is just "rock-like". This doesn't give any indication of Havel being mountain sized. You can argue it's meant to tie them together with a rock/mineral motif, which i would agree with, but as far as Havel goes, i think it doesn't go beyond him having rocky equipment and a defensive mindset.
I read some DS3 Items and on Silver Knight Ledos hammers last line it really hit me: "Ledo, an eccentric who traveled aross the outskirts, became a close friend to the *giants and even Havel, the Rock.* " The giants and then havel being mentioned strikes me as odd unless *Havel IS A GIANT* . One of the four knights is a giant, Hawkeye Gough, so having a giant being Gwyns battlefield compatriot would make more sense, him tearing out and using a dragons tooth as well, wearing the heavy stone scales of the dragons aswell and holding a deep hatred for seath seems more like a giant thing (Gough:"The dragons shall never be forgotten… We knights fought valiantly, but for every one of them, we lost three score of our own. Exhiliration, pride, hatred, rage… The dragons teased out our dearest emotions.") This seems to fit more and more
loving the discussion this theory is causing in the comments! a lot of supporting evidence, but simultaneously some conflicting ideas, with equal merit between them. it reminds me how ACTUAL ancient history can be so difficult to decipher, when the only sources are word of mouth, hyperbole, and statements that outright oppose one another. what a beautiful world.
4:00 岩のようなハベル Havel the Rock is not a mistranslation. A person is not a rock; he is being likened to one. Explicit in the Japanese, more implicit in English. Slightly different to "X the [adjective]", which is often easily translated to and fro Japanese using の. See wrestler names for examples (even The Rock himself lol)
yes it is though. Metaphorically comparing Havel directly to a rock is different. "havel the rock" would be 岩のハベル, just flatly "Havel the Rock" or "Rock Havel". like Yoshimitsu says, 岩のようなハベル is specifically "Havel like a rock", or, if you push it, "Rocky Havel".
Thanks for your video. I started to come around to a similar idea to this a long time ago. Of course the difference for me was I wasn't thinking that Havel was an ancient dragon, but was possibly the first to become one. The stone Dragon that's found in Ash Lake is the same area where we find those Miracles Associated to Havel and those that followed him. I can also see another interpretation that Havel may have been a giant or something along those lines and then he sided with the nameless King and went to Ash Lake and became the first person to transform into a dragon themselves. Even though that dragon is said to be an ancient or Everlasting Dragon, Havel is said to be an ancient hero or a legendary hero meaning he's been around for a very long time. Either way, I think him being a dragon or becoming a dragon is definitely a possibility. Thanks for another fantastic video
Havel being a dragon and compatriot of Gwyn would make the nameless king's arc much more tragic. After Gwin's death,the nameless king was expunged from history for siding with the dragons, probably because the royalty of anor londo at the time thought of it as some kind of betrayal to Gwyn's values. Turns out he was just following his father's footsteps. This also reinforces the idea that the Gwin described in the tales is a twisted,idealized version of the real one. Real Gwin fought against the Dragons but didn't really wanted them to go extinct. In fact,he tamed dragons/drakes to use against the dark and even made alliances with some like Seath.
Sick, glad there is new lore on him. Replaying DS1 after Elden Ring like a lot of you guys and noticed every piece of Havel's armor says worm by "(his) men." Wonder what became of him in the original game
Hmm. Interesting. I heard that the phrase "battlefield compatriot of gwyn," is also mistranslated. Also If he is an ancient dragon why wasn't Havel given a reward for betraying the ancient dragons as well?
As far as I can tell, "battlefield compatriot of Gwyn" isn't a mistranslation. It's グウィン王の古い戦友 in Japanese for both the Havel's Ring and Great Magic Barrier. It's 最古の王グウィンの戦友 for Havel's Ring in DS3. 戦友 can be translated as brother in arms, comrade in arms, companion in arms, etc. I guess the direct translation would be a King Gwyn's Ancient Comrade in Arms, or something like that and King Gwyn's most Ancient battlefield comrade for 最古の王グウィンの戦友 in DS3. My head canon as to why Seath was given a reward and not Havel would be that Seath betrayed the Dragons during the war and sided with Gwyn. I believe Havel was taken in by Gwyn after the Dragon war was lost. Havel probably didn't back down even after defeat. Kind of like how Gyoubu Masataka Oniwa serves Isshin even though they fought against eachother at first.
@@ChannelYoshimitsu Therefore unless we suppose Havel betrayed the dragons it seems difficult for him to be termed 戦友 'war friend' of Gwynn: this is the weakest part of your theory, I guess, but I am convinced by the totality of it that it's probably best to consider Havel an ancient dragon
I'm surprised you didn't touch on Havel's armor, and how this could play into it I've long suspected that Havel's armor is made from the stone scales of an everlasting dragon. Not only would it explain its lower lightning resist, but it would also be a beautiful parallel with Seath: the dragon without stone scales, and the human with the stone scales It could also explain some of these naming similarities Also, Havel the Rock is infinitely cooler than Havel the Rock-like, so I approve of that change
What a great theory video, I always thought, mostly through Havel's equipment, that he was a dragon killer. Now it makes more sense to say that he himself might have once been a dragon, after all we've already heard in Fromsoftware games about dragons that sometimes took human form (example though Lansseax)
Except that Elden Ring and Dark Souls have nothing to do with each other. Just because they're made by the same people doesn't mean the games are related. Elden Ring is not suitable to be considered evidence in Dark Souls lore discussions. Better evidence is the fact that humans becoming dragons is possible in all of the Dark Souls games, so it's not a huge leap in logic to assume that Dragons can transform into humans.
Your deep voice is how I imagine a Havel warrior would talk. As for your theory, you laying it out like this fully explains it! It's more obvious than I realized. The stone armor, the stone skin ability, dragon tooth. So these followers of Havel used the ancient dragon's body as their armor and weapons, that's hype. Also using Elden Ring as a reference, I can imagine it being very similar to Godwyn and Fortisax's relationship. Like Gwyn and Havel fighting to a standstill, and Havel respecting Gwyn's power so much he joined forces with him. The question then becomes of the whole god-killing conspiracy. Could the Nameless King, when he flew off into the sunset maybe Havel left too (becoming that mountain dragon we see here)? Causing the remaining Havel warriors to go hollow and reek some havoc.
Thanks for the great comment. I totally agree with the relationship between Gwyn and Havel having similarities to Godwyn and Fortisax's relationship. In my head-canon, I do assume the Nameless King started the exit of gods from Anor Londo and I could see Havel being a part of this exit for sure.
I like the idea of other commenters that Havel became the Ash Lake dragon. If that's true, then unlike Seath, Havel achieved something incredible without an endless library of books. This would contrast Seath's reliance on human knowledge, with Havel's respectful inquiring into what a dragon really is, presumably from the source, ie. dragons themselves. So Seath forced his transformation into immortality and lost everything, much like Gwyn's forcing of the flame. But Havel came upon his final "everlasting" form naturally, reverting to the rock-like form that all things took at the beginning of time. Ironically this makes Havel more like a dragon than Seath ever could be.
well this would be quite the revelation, but would also put him into a bit of an odd spot it would mean that he also willingly betrayed his everlasting brethren and only hated Seath, because he practiced Magic...
It's possible he did it out of respect for his opponent, Gwyn. In contrast, Seath just stabbed everyone else they knew in the back, possibly by telling Gwyn their weakness. That's just semantics, though. The Dragons were defeated, not wiped out, so it isn't odd to see some of them come into the fold of the new world. There are multiple reasons for them to hate each other, not the least of which is Seath's inferiority complex regarding scales. In fact, it would be surprising if Seath didn't have it out for Havel just for him having scales. Such sentiments would be mutual.
amazing theory! ive never heard this one before, and it actually makes a lot of sense, especially since you use the original Japanese text. well done! :)
Well that would make the Havel Warrior in Archdragon Peak make a little more sense. Yet, why would Havel not be mentioned in the intro then? It's hard to think that he could be a comrade to Gwyn. I suppose though, that if we fill in some blanks with speculation, it's quite possible that before Gwyn waged war on the dragons, he perhaps had a dragon of his own, like his son, The Nameless King. Perhaps Seath's betrayal was what sparked their mutual animosity, and Gwyn killed Havel during the war or before it, but still respected him from the battles they'd fought prior to it?
That speculation would make sense. Midir would be the dragon that (God)Gwyn raised as the Jpn version states it was Gwyn who raised Midir and not the Gods. And I agree Seath's betrayal sparked Havel's hatred towards Seath.
Thanks man. To answer your question, I believe the woman portrayed by the statue in fire link shrine is Caitha. The child I'm still undecided on. For now, I think it's the Nameless King.
If Havel was an ancient Dragon and a battlefield compatriot to Gwyn, howcome Seath is seen as a traitor to the dragons and not Havel? Was Havel an ally to Gwyn after the war against the Dragons? Or a survivor? Only to later join Gwyns side and hear that Seath was the one to betray the dragons? Swear vengeance upon Seath and gathers an army of knights to slay him? Your points are very compeling and likely true but Havel being an ancient dragon changes everything we know of him.
Interesting take, and I can see this working, but why would Gwyn lock up an old friend... who was worshiping his arch enemies? Also, I get how Havel hating Seath works with this... but why would Havel then turn on Gwyn as well?
Purely speculation, but maybe Gwyn went overboard with the dragon genocide. Causing Havel to feel betrayed, who then defected to siding with the Nameless King instead.
This is head-canon, but if Havel was taken in by Gwyn at the end of the Dragon war, I could see Havel respecting Gwyn while resenting him at the same time. Another point I didn't mention in the video is, there is no guarantee it was Gywn who locked up the Havel Knight in the stone tower. I personally question if Gywn had anything to do with locking up an old friend.
but havel is part of the gods' race, he was gwyns battle partner, a silver knight most likely given that he fought in the Archdragon War and others who served Gwyn in the Dragon War and who were part of the race of the gods but still not recognized as a "god" were the silver knights After this, he had amassed his own following with priests and warriors as we can see with the Havel Warrior in the watchtower, and lived in anor londo as we can see with his gear there, and he was really strong, thats it
the reason why havel is described in the same way as the ancient dragon is because dragons' scales in dark souls are made of rock, just like havel's armour. i don't see why havel wearing armour made of the same material as dragon's scales means he is a dragon. there's no cases in dark souls of a dragon ever taking the form of a human, the opposite is true actually. humans would try to make themselves into dragons to become more powerful, so i don't see why or how havel could turn himself into a weaker being, and why he would hate seath when seath hates the dragons too
He's saying Havel is a dragon. He didn't turn into a human. The warrior wearing Havel's armour is a Knight of Havel not Havel himself. We never meet Havel in a game.
@@joevines3428 how would a dragon wear havel's armour and havel's ring lmao. we know they wear the same armour as him, so he's gotta be a really weirdly shaped dragon to fit in that suit and wouldn't that be a big thing? if he was just a dragon the whole time wouldn't the game mention that at least once somewhere?
@@Tulip_bip "Armor worn by Havel the Rock's warriors. Carved from solid rock, its tremendous weight is matched only by the defense it provides. Havel's warriors never flinched nor retreated from battle. Those unfortunate enough to face them were inevitably beaten to a pulp." This is the description for the whole armor set. "This ring was named after Havel the Rock, Lord Gwyn's old battlefield compatriot. Havel's men wore the ring to express faith in their leader and to carry a heavier load" this is the ring description, they never say Havel wore these things, only his warriors.
@@joevines3428 it doesn't give any evidence of him being a dragon either, all we can learn from this is that havel's men wore the rings. there's a chance he was a dragon, or a giant, or any number of other things, but we can't know because the game never explicitly tells us anything about what he was like it can be assumed that the man locked in the tower really was just havel, and it would make sense for his men to wear the same things he did. i wouldn't really understand why a random person who fought alongside havel would be described in the way he is
Great theory. edit: okay, you've sold me. after watching the video a few more times, to let everything sink in, it just makes too much sense. the part that really convinces me is the Shield ability, that lowers lightning defense.
Yup. I plan on making Elden Ring videos. Although the amount of info in Elden Ring is so much that I'm no where near being ready to cover Elden Ring yet.
or he could've transformed into a dragon, its said warriors has done it in ds3 but even then I think his warriors would've accidentally hunted him down
To me your theorie makes sense, would explain why he hated seath and magic. Ontop of that why would a 'normal' warrior have priests who ?worship? him. maybe his followers were dragoncultists? Only problem which i cant solve is that havel supposedly fought alongside gwyn. On the other hand, dont you find a weapon that can kill gods when find havel's gear? Did he actualy plan to kill gwyn.
I love the theory, and I think it makes a great deal of sense. The design of the set itself seems more reminiscent of scales than of slabs of rock. The Havel Warriors could then essentially be seen as a sort of primordial dragon cult. The real question is why we never meet Havel ingame if he's still around, and why he would side with Gwyn.
@@ChannelYoshimitsu See, that's sort of problematic, because that claim rests only on your assumption. There's no evidence to suggest that this is actually the case.
My assumption comes from the item description for Ledo's Great Hammer. The description states, "Ledo, an eccentric who traveled across the outskirts, became a close friend to the giants and even Havel, the Rock." This item description is why I assume Havel lived in the outskirts.
@@ChannelYoshimitsu Well, taking the lore of the sequels into account poses some risk, as not everything remains consistent throughout. Regardless, that item description doesn't really suggest that he met Havel 'in the Outskirts,' and we don't really know for sure what that even refers to, geographically. We also don't know when, exactly, Ledo was traveling. It's possible for the events described to have transpired before DS1, or that they were happening during the time of the war against the dragons. Besides, given the obvious likeness between Ledo and Havel Warriors, I think it's fair to assume that their friendship was one born of mutual understandings. There's nothing to suggest that Ledo took any kind of dragon inspiration along with him, and thus it doesn't actually suggest that Havel was a dragon in any way.
True. It is not known when Ledo travelled the outskirts. Geographically, the outskirts probably refers to a region close to Catarina. The outskirts term辺境 is used for Emit force, which is used by Catarina knights.
Awesome, can't wait to watch. Personally, on a meta level, I always thought he was a reference to Václav Havel, the Czech president. Same as how Ostrava (a Czech city) was referenced in DeS.
oh wow finally people are referring to source material instead of puzzling over bad translations lmao. Hope this behaviour will spread to the rest of culture, looking to others to gain ideas of how to solve your own "unique" societal problems
Interesting theory for sure, but I'll have to think about it more thoroughly. On my channel I have a video where I suggest that Father Ariandel is Allfather Lloyd, you might want to check it out if you're doing a video on either character
well not directly i guess but in a form of evolution or devolution there is also in game item that lets you turn into dragon like form also Emerald Herald was Born from Dragons? if that makes sense.
The theory I have is that Havel isn't human at all and he's always been an Everlasting Dragon. In terms of the shapeshifting, the Lothric Knights turning into Dragons come to mind.
I just had an insane idea. What if Havel originally was just a silver knight who fought the dragons in the war, came to admire their strength and attempted to mimic it by adorning himself in their scales and teeth and his faith in their unstoppable might, slowly taking on their characteristics. What if the anceint dragon underneath ash lake is actually havel the rock, the first to transform into a dragon and the founder of the dragon covenant. You find great magic barrier right next to it, talking to the dragon gives you an item that allows you to transform into a dragon, and you find havel knights all over archdragon peak, where you also get the dragon stones.
If this is true and confirmed, it would be funny to see Havel as a dragon pull out of his tooth and transform as a human to use it as a weapon
I would love a Havel boss battle like that.
I think the better explanation is just that Havel was one of the gods who started imitating the dragons either as a recognition of their strength or as a jab toward Seath.
He is an old battle compatriot of Gwyn, who we only know to have fought in 2 wars. He is never mentioned or associated in any way with the war against the demons, but he does have a weapon made from the remains of a dragon, implying he did participate in the war against them as Gwyn's ally (or rather as his subject). Him being a dragon who changed sides after the war doesn't hold up with the info we are provided.
You could argue then that he was like Seath and changed sides before or during the war, but that doesn't hold up either. Seath is the only dragon singled out as a traitor in both the intro, descriptions, and dialogue. You would expect that if another archdragon with his own scales did that he would be mentioned in a similar manner.
Plus, the Dragon Tooth in the Japanese text is specified to have been used as a great hammer by Havel himself.
The implication seems to be that he was one of the silver knights (since they are the ones surrounding Gwyn during the intro) who at some point during or after the war looted the tooth and came to admire the might of their enemies and attempted to imitate it (something that we see in DS1, 2 and 3 happening) for the gods' purposes or for his personal distate for Seath. He also got a cult like other deities in the Anor Londo pantheon.
This also justifies the rock-like/mountain-like wording. Havel's whole deal was that he imitated the power of dragons, so the script using similar terms for both isn't strange, or conducive to the conclusion of Havel being a dragon.
I do like the theory in the video, but I feel like it leaves a lot of questions. If we instead suggest that there was a guy called Havel who utilized dragon scales and trained his warriors in how to counter magic, not because he was a dragon, but precisely because he was extremely anti-dragon, and didn't trust seath, then it makes more sense. The appearance of Havel-related individuals and items in areas associated with dragons could imply that these warriors are still at it, and trying to get rid of every last bit of dragon influence.
Occam's Razor rarely fails
This only adds up if you consider that all dragons are on the same team. Seath might be considered a traitor because he pretended to fight alongside Dragons, when he really sided with Gwyn.
Dragon-Havel wouldn't be considered a traitor if he never fought alongside Dragons. And if he is really as big as a mountain, i'm sure Dragon-Havel wouldn't hesitate to assert dominance over them
And we know that it was not unusual for Gwyn to side with dragons. Or rather use anyone, anything and any means necessary to prevent the fall of his age
@@eowade9211 It's fair to assume most dragons were on the same team since Seath is repeatedly singled out as a traitor for turning against them as a whole. Plus, dragon-Havel would still be a traitor for turning against his own, just like Seath is explicitly accused of doing. It's not a matter of having picked sides before the conflict, Seath was a dragon and turning against them makes him a traitor, independently of when he did that.
Also, Havel is NEVER compared to a mountain. The dead archdragon of Archdragon Peak is the one who is "mountain-like", while Havel is just "rock-like". This doesn't give any indication of Havel being mountain sized. You can argue it's meant to tie them together with a rock/mineral motif, which i would agree with, but as far as Havel goes, i think it doesn't go beyond him having rocky equipment and a defensive mindset.
I read some DS3 Items and on Silver Knight Ledos hammers last line it really hit me: "Ledo, an eccentric who traveled aross the outskirts, became a close friend to the *giants and even Havel, the Rock.* " The giants and then havel being mentioned strikes me as odd unless *Havel IS A GIANT* . One of the four knights is a giant, Hawkeye Gough, so having a giant being Gwyns battlefield compatriot would make more sense, him tearing out and using a dragons tooth as well, wearing the heavy stone scales of the dragons aswell and holding a deep hatred for seath seems more like a giant thing (Gough:"The dragons shall never be forgotten… We knights fought valiantly, but for every one of them, we lost three score of our own. Exhiliration, pride, hatred, rage… The dragons teased out our dearest emotions.") This seems to fit more and more
This channel should be alot more popular. Just watched all the videos in one day.
Thanks for watching friend. :)
loving the discussion this theory is causing in the comments! a lot of supporting evidence, but simultaneously some conflicting ideas, with equal merit between them. it reminds me how ACTUAL ancient history can be so difficult to decipher, when the only sources are word of mouth, hyperbole, and statements that outright oppose one another. what a beautiful world.
I like this theory but I think it needs a trim from Occam's barber shop
Please make more of these videos!
4:00 岩のようなハベル Havel the Rock is not a mistranslation. A person is not a rock; he is being likened to one. Explicit in the Japanese, more implicit in English. Slightly different to "X the [adjective]", which is often easily translated to and fro Japanese using の. See wrestler names for examples (even The Rock himself lol)
yes it is though. Metaphorically comparing Havel directly to a rock is different. "havel the rock" would be 岩のハベル, just flatly "Havel the Rock" or "Rock Havel". like Yoshimitsu says, 岩のようなハベル is specifically "Havel like a rock", or, if you push it, "Rocky Havel".
Thanks for your video. I started to come around to a similar idea to this a long time ago. Of course the difference for me was I wasn't thinking that Havel was an ancient dragon, but was possibly the first to become one. The stone Dragon that's found in Ash Lake is the same area where we find those Miracles Associated to Havel and those that followed him. I can also see another interpretation that Havel may have been a giant or something along those lines and then he sided with the nameless King and went to Ash Lake and became the first person to transform into a dragon themselves. Even though that dragon is said to be an ancient or Everlasting Dragon, Havel is said to be an ancient hero or a legendary hero meaning he's been around for a very long time. Either way, I think him being a dragon or becoming a dragon is definitely a possibility. Thanks for another fantastic video
Thanks for the great comment!
That would explain why Havel and Seath hate each other, the last surviving Dragon and the single greatest traitor of them all
Havel being a dragon and compatriot of Gwyn would make the nameless king's arc much more tragic. After Gwin's death,the nameless king was expunged from history for siding with the dragons, probably because the royalty of anor londo at the time thought of it as some kind of betrayal to Gwyn's values. Turns out he was just following his father's footsteps.
This also reinforces the idea that the Gwin described in the tales is a twisted,idealized version of the real one. Real Gwin fought against the Dragons but didn't really wanted them to go extinct. In fact,he tamed dragons/drakes to use against the dark and even made alliances with some like Seath.
Agreed. I believe Gwyn tried the best he can and has been villainized by others after he linked the flame.
I always had doubt as to how can a human be so strong, him being a dragon make sense
600th sub, well deserved this is a pretty uncovered topic mistranslation I mean
Thanks for the sub!
Ineteresting. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, good sir!
Sick, glad there is new lore on him. Replaying DS1 after Elden Ring like a lot of you guys and noticed every piece of Havel's armor says worm by "(his) men." Wonder what became of him in the original game
I assume Havel went to the outskirts.
Praise be to Havel for this recommendation.
Hmm. Interesting. I heard that the phrase "battlefield compatriot of gwyn," is also mistranslated.
Also If he is an ancient dragon why wasn't Havel given a reward for betraying the ancient dragons as well?
As far as I can tell, "battlefield compatriot of Gwyn" isn't a mistranslation. It's グウィン王の古い戦友 in Japanese for both the Havel's Ring and Great Magic Barrier. It's 最古の王グウィンの戦友 for Havel's Ring in DS3.
戦友 can be translated as brother in arms, comrade in arms, companion in arms, etc. I guess the direct translation would be a King Gwyn's Ancient Comrade in Arms, or something like that and King Gwyn's most Ancient battlefield comrade for 最古の王グウィンの戦友 in DS3.
My head canon as to why Seath was given a reward and not Havel would be that Seath betrayed the Dragons during the war and sided with Gwyn. I believe Havel was taken in by Gwyn after the Dragon war was lost. Havel probably didn't back down even after defeat.
Kind of like how Gyoubu Masataka Oniwa serves Isshin even though they fought against eachother at first.
@@ChannelYoshimitsu that makes sense.
@@ChannelYoshimitsu Therefore unless we suppose Havel betrayed the dragons it seems difficult for him to be termed 戦友 'war friend' of Gwynn: this is the weakest part of your theory, I guess, but I am convinced by the totality of it that it's probably best to consider Havel an ancient dragon
Very good video! Really looking at it from a different PoV.
I'm surprised you didn't touch on Havel's armor, and how this could play into it
I've long suspected that Havel's armor is made from the stone scales of an everlasting dragon. Not only would it explain its lower lightning resist, but it would also be a beautiful parallel with Seath: the dragon without stone scales, and the human with the stone scales
It could also explain some of these naming similarities
Also, Havel the Rock is infinitely cooler than Havel the Rock-like, so I approve of that change
Or he just a stone humanoid and all stone enemies share weakness to lightning.
Puts on titanite foil hat
What a great theory video, I always thought, mostly through Havel's equipment, that he was a dragon killer. Now it makes more sense to say that he himself might have once been a dragon, after all we've already heard in Fromsoftware games about dragons that sometimes took human form (example though Lansseax)
Except that Elden Ring and Dark Souls have nothing to do with each other. Just because they're made by the same people doesn't mean the games are related. Elden Ring is not suitable to be considered evidence in Dark Souls lore discussions.
Better evidence is the fact that humans becoming dragons is possible in all of the Dark Souls games, so it's not a huge leap in logic to assume that Dragons can transform into humans.
Your deep voice is how I imagine a Havel warrior would talk.
As for your theory, you laying it out like this fully explains it! It's more obvious than I realized. The stone armor, the stone skin ability, dragon tooth. So these followers of Havel used the ancient dragon's body as their armor and weapons, that's hype.
Also using Elden Ring as a reference, I can imagine it being very similar to Godwyn and Fortisax's relationship.
Like Gwyn and Havel fighting to a standstill, and Havel respecting Gwyn's power so much he joined forces with him.
The question then becomes of the whole god-killing conspiracy. Could the Nameless King, when he flew off into the sunset maybe Havel left too (becoming that mountain dragon we see here)? Causing the remaining Havel warriors to go hollow and reek some havoc.
Thanks for the great comment.
I totally agree with the relationship between Gwyn and Havel having similarities to Godwyn and Fortisax's relationship.
In my head-canon, I do assume the Nameless King started the exit of gods from Anor Londo and I could see Havel being a part of this exit for sure.
Phenomenal video, definitely earned a sub
I like the idea of other commenters that Havel became the Ash Lake dragon. If that's true, then unlike Seath, Havel achieved something incredible without an endless library of books. This would contrast Seath's reliance on human knowledge, with Havel's respectful inquiring into what a dragon really is, presumably from the source, ie. dragons themselves.
So Seath forced his transformation into immortality and lost everything, much like Gwyn's forcing of the flame. But Havel came upon his final "everlasting" form naturally, reverting to the rock-like form that all things took at the beginning of time. Ironically this makes Havel more like a dragon than Seath ever could be.
well this would be quite the revelation, but would also put him into a bit of an odd spot
it would mean that he also willingly betrayed his everlasting brethren and only hated Seath, because he practiced Magic...
It's possible he did it out of respect for his opponent, Gwyn. In contrast, Seath just stabbed everyone else they knew in the back, possibly by telling Gwyn their weakness. That's just semantics, though. The Dragons were defeated, not wiped out, so it isn't odd to see some of them come into the fold of the new world.
There are multiple reasons for them to hate each other, not the least of which is Seath's inferiority complex regarding scales. In fact, it would be surprising if Seath didn't have it out for Havel just for him having scales. Such sentiments would be mutual.
Sick theory.
This satisfied year of curiosity
Oh my goodness
amazing theory! ive never heard this one before, and it actually makes a lot of sense, especially since you use the original Japanese text. well done! :)
Thanks for the great comment!
Wow my mind is blown.
Well that would make the Havel Warrior in Archdragon Peak make a little more sense. Yet, why would Havel not be mentioned in the intro then? It's hard to think that he could be a comrade to Gwyn.
I suppose though, that if we fill in some blanks with speculation, it's quite possible that before Gwyn waged war on the dragons, he perhaps had a dragon of his own, like his son, The Nameless King. Perhaps Seath's betrayal was what sparked their mutual animosity, and Gwyn killed Havel during the war or before it, but still respected him from the battles they'd fought prior to it?
That speculation would make sense. Midir would be the dragon that (God)Gwyn raised as the Jpn version states it was Gwyn who raised Midir and not the Gods.
And I agree Seath's betrayal sparked Havel's hatred towards Seath.
Great vid, I have a question that's not related, who do you think is the woman and child being portrayed in the statue on firelink?
Thanks man. To answer your question, I believe the woman portrayed by the statue in fire link shrine is Caitha. The child I'm still undecided on. For now, I think it's the Nameless King.
I think seathe is a crystal snail from elden ring.
That would be cool if Seath lives on as a snail.
If Havel was an ancient Dragon and a battlefield compatriot to Gwyn, howcome Seath is seen as a traitor to the dragons and not Havel? Was Havel an ally to Gwyn after the war against the Dragons? Or a survivor? Only to later join Gwyns side and hear that Seath was the one to betray the dragons? Swear vengeance upon Seath and gathers an army of knights to slay him? Your points are very compeling and likely true but Havel being an ancient dragon changes everything we know of him.
Interesting take, and I can see this working, but why would Gwyn lock up an old friend... who was worshiping his arch enemies?
Also, I get how Havel hating Seath works with this... but why would Havel then turn on Gwyn as well?
Purely speculation, but maybe Gwyn went overboard with the dragon genocide. Causing Havel to feel betrayed, who then defected to siding with the Nameless King instead.
@@vj7248 also the original Japanese just says the dragons where defeated and not "no more" like the English.
This is head-canon, but if Havel was taken in by Gwyn at the end of the Dragon war, I could see Havel respecting Gwyn while resenting him at the same time.
Another point I didn't mention in the video is, there is no guarantee it was Gywn who locked up the Havel Knight in the stone tower. I personally question if Gywn had anything to do with locking up an old friend.
but havel is part of the gods' race, he was gwyns battle partner, a silver knight most likely given that he fought in the Archdragon War and others who served Gwyn in the Dragon War and who were part of the race of the gods but still not recognized as a "god" were the silver knights
After this, he had amassed his own following with priests and warriors as we can see with the Havel Warrior in the watchtower, and lived in anor londo as we can see with his gear there, and he was really strong, thats it
that's one interpretation. Yes
the reason why havel is described in the same way as the ancient dragon is because dragons' scales in dark souls are made of rock, just like havel's armour. i don't see why havel wearing armour made of the same material as dragon's scales means he is a dragon. there's no cases in dark souls of a dragon ever taking the form of a human, the opposite is true actually. humans would try to make themselves into dragons to become more powerful, so i don't see why or how havel could turn himself into a weaker being, and why he would hate seath when seath hates the dragons too
He's saying Havel is a dragon. He didn't turn into a human. The warrior wearing Havel's armour is a Knight of Havel not Havel himself. We never meet Havel in a game.
@@joevines3428
how would a dragon wear havel's armour and havel's ring lmao. we know they wear the same armour as him, so he's gotta be a really weirdly shaped dragon to fit in that suit
and wouldn't that be a big thing? if he was just a dragon the whole time wouldn't the game mention that at least once somewhere?
@@Tulip_bip "Armor worn by Havel the Rock's warriors. Carved from solid rock, its tremendous weight is matched only by the defense it provides. Havel's warriors never flinched nor retreated from battle. Those unfortunate enough to face them were inevitably beaten to a pulp." This is the description for the whole armor set.
"This ring was named after Havel the Rock, Lord Gwyn's old battlefield compatriot.
Havel's men wore the ring to express faith in their leader and to carry a heavier load" this is the ring description, they never say Havel wore these things, only his warriors.
@@joevines3428
it doesn't give any evidence of him being a dragon either, all we can learn from this is that havel's men wore the rings. there's a chance he was a dragon, or a giant, or any number of other things, but we can't know because the game never explicitly tells us anything about what he was like
it can be assumed that the man locked in the tower really was just havel, and it would make sense for his men to wear the same things he did. i wouldn't really understand why a random person who fought alongside havel would be described in the way he is
@@Tulip_bip oh I agree we have no proof Havel was or is a dragon but the warrior in the tower is likely a follower of Havel in my opinion.
Great theory.
edit: okay, you've sold me. after watching the video a few more times, to let everything sink in, it just makes too much sense. the part that really convinces me is the Shield ability, that lowers lightning defense.
Damn that's interesting. Will you also make Elden Ring videos? This game is also mistranslated to hell
Yup. I plan on making Elden Ring videos. Although the amount of info in Elden Ring is so much that I'm no where near being ready to cover Elden Ring yet.
One of the better Dark Souls theories I've heard in a while.
first my friend love your content
Thanks my friend.
Do you still think that Havel is from Lothric like you mentioned in the Caitha vid?
I've changed my theory regarding that. I no longer believe Havel is from Lothric. I think he played a part in Lothric's history though.
4:00 really? I always thought Havel was a literal rock and not a person likened to a stone /s
or he could've transformed into a dragon, its said warriors has done it in ds3 but even then I think his warriors would've accidentally hunted him down
It's definitely possible for sure. Although my head-canon, I assume Havel was an Everlasting Dragon. :)
Yes!!
Path of human
Ive always thought Smough was a dragon 🤔
Oh interesting. I've always though Smough was a Demon of some sort.
@@ChannelYoshimitsu Guess we gotta find out why he was “putting humans into his feed” lol
To me your theorie makes sense, would explain why he hated seath and magic. Ontop of that why would a 'normal' warrior have priests who ?worship? him. maybe his followers were dragoncultists?
Only problem which i cant solve is that havel supposedly fought alongside gwyn. On the other hand, dont you find a weapon that can kill gods when find havel's gear? Did he actualy plan to kill gwyn.
In my head-canon, I assume Havel wanted to kill Gwyn but also respected Gwyn at the same time.
I love the theory, and I think it makes a great deal of sense. The design of the set itself seems more reminiscent of scales than of slabs of rock. The Havel Warriors could then essentially be seen as a sort of primordial dragon cult. The real question is why we never meet Havel ingame if he's still around, and why he would side with Gwyn.
I assume why Havel never shows in game is he left Anor Londo and lived in the outskirts far away.
@@ChannelYoshimitsu See, that's sort of problematic, because that claim rests only on your assumption. There's no evidence to suggest that this is actually the case.
My assumption comes from the item description for Ledo's Great Hammer. The description states, "Ledo, an eccentric who traveled across the outskirts, became a close friend to the giants and even Havel, the Rock." This item description is why I assume Havel lived in the outskirts.
@@ChannelYoshimitsu Well, taking the lore of the sequels into account poses some risk, as not everything remains consistent throughout. Regardless, that item description doesn't really suggest that he met Havel 'in the Outskirts,' and we don't really know for sure what that even refers to, geographically. We also don't know when, exactly, Ledo was traveling. It's possible for the events described to have transpired before DS1, or that they were happening during the time of the war against the dragons.
Besides, given the obvious likeness between Ledo and Havel Warriors, I think it's fair to assume that their friendship was one born of mutual understandings. There's nothing to suggest that Ledo took any kind of dragon inspiration along with him, and thus it doesn't actually suggest that Havel was a dragon in any way.
True. It is not known when Ledo travelled the outskirts.
Geographically, the outskirts probably refers to a region close to Catarina. The outskirts term辺境 is used for Emit force, which is used by Catarina knights.
💀
Awesome, can't wait to watch.
Personally, on a meta level, I always thought he was a reference to Václav Havel, the Czech president.
Same as how Ostrava (a Czech city) was referenced in DeS.
Interesting. Had no idea the names of Havel and Ostrava came from Czech names. Super good to know.
oh wow finally people are referring to source material instead of puzzling over bad translations lmao. Hope this behaviour will spread to the rest of culture, looking to others to gain ideas of how to solve your own "unique" societal problems
This just shows how far off most theories are🤔
Interesting theory for sure, but I'll have to think about it more thoroughly. On my channel I have a video where I suggest that Father Ariandel is Allfather Lloyd, you might want to check it out if you're doing a video on either character
Interesting. I'd never thought about the possibility that Father Ariandel could be Allfather Lloyd.
Super interesting.
Onion knight 🧅 🤴🏻
I don't buy it how can a dragon change to be human? And is there even one instance in the entire dark souls lore of someone/ something shapeshifting?
well not directly i guess but in a form of evolution or devolution there is also in game item that lets you turn into dragon like form also Emerald Herald was Born from Dragons? if that makes sense.
The theory I have is that Havel isn't human at all and he's always been an Everlasting Dragon.
In terms of the shapeshifting, the Lothric Knights turning into Dragons come to mind.
Great theory, but none of this explain why he is in human form.
I actually question if Havel has a human form. My head-canon is that he has always been an Everlasting Dragon the entire time.
Are you high