this tired argument between baristas and customers who want a "large cappuccino", and also between people within the coffee world is making me realize why I love the new trend at 3rd wave shops to just have a menu of "espresso" or "espresso + milk."
Once when ordering a double espresso, I got what was arguably a latte, or maybe an espresso version of a cafe au lait...? I had to send that back with a "WTF are you doing?" I don't think they often got people ordering black coffee and plain espresso.
When I opened my Coffee Shop in Germany, we didnt want to have a 'big cappuccino' on the menu (because obvious reasons) but after a while we had to give in. People would always order it even if it wasnt on the menu, some people would even start ordering a "flat white but in a big cup"... most people just want a big hot cup with caffeine and milk, kinda sucks when you are a barista who cares.
The irony is the majority of people who ask you the difference probably couldn't taste it even if you worked really hard to make all 3 distinct. The differences have become so subtle, all that really changes is the espresso:milk ratio, so, how strong do you like your coffee?
Very few people within the coffee industry openly admit the way the milk is being steamed now altered drastically. The vast majority of coffee shops offers a substandard, watery, and bland cappuccino where the milk is seriously understeamed in favour of good or excellent latte art. Luckily enough, I part-time in a small cafe where the pattern is absolutely secondary and solid steam and pour is of a paramount importance.
Glad someone has finally saidit , if you enjoy it then that is all that counts. Have made my own coffee drinks (read beyond drip) at home for over 20 years now and have, over time, changed my coffee/milk ratios to suit my taste. You could never officially call anything I make a flat white, or a latte, or a cappuccino, but it is perfect for me (and large) and I'd put it up as a winner against any of the chain products here in Canada especially as soon as you get to takeaway size cups. Oh and by the way, pineapple is great on pizza :-).
I guess that's the US. Here in Europe, latte has much bigger milk to coffee ratio than flat white. Caffe latte is typically prepared in a 200-250 ml cup with *one* standard shot of espresso and filled with steamed milk, while flat white usually in a 150-200ml cup with *two* shots of espresso. Specialized coffee shops here usually have 3 size to go cups btw. And even with the same size cups, they are usually okay not filling it to the top if it's not needed by the milk coffee type.
The only place near me that has a "flat white" on their menu is Starbucks (given the company, I doubt they make the drink correctly), and there is a difference in their preparation of it compared to their latte (different espresso amounts, different milk used). I think their "flat white" tastes better, however on occasion I get one where I feel like I just overpaid for a latte.
Here’s the thing: I enjoy flat white. I don’t enjoy a latte. And if I go to a place that’s attempting to serve me a flat white in a 12oz cup, then I agree, I’m going to get something closer to a latte. So really I try to avoid places that do that. Thankfully I live in a city (San Francisco) that, for the most part, won’t try to give me a 12oz flat white. The bigger issue I have here are the baristas that argue that a cappuccino and a flat white are the same thing.
I temper my expectations when I see places serve 12 oz flat whites. However, I’m finding many places serve flat whites that taste similar to their lattes both in flavour and milk quality. So I just tend to order their latte to get more coffee for the same price.
@@kockgunner I agree, but if they do that then that probably means I won't visit again. I'd prefer to go somewhere that makes a flat white properly. I really don't enjoy the "thinness" of a latte.
As a small independent coffee shop we always tried to keep the menu super simple, a flat white would be served in an 8oz cup, a latte and cappuccino in 12oz cups, all done with two shots, just the amount and texture of milk would vary. And then we keep getting customers asking for small lattes and big flat whites...
@@KNURKonesur I bet a lot of people asking for a small latte don’t know what a flat white is (or ought to be) so that’s fine. Asking for a big flat white on the other hand??
To be fair, most people demand larger sizes For instance at my work we used to only serve 8oz flat whites and cappuccinos but now corporate has made it so we're not allowed to turn down a customer who asks for a 16 oz cap or flat white It's really annoying cus it makes it harder to do our job and to educate new coffee folks but it's hard to compete with Starbucks when they're a free for all of "make any coffee any way the customer likes even if it doesn't exist" lol
I remember a job a long time ago where the pained italian owners just told me to make all of them as if they were flat whites, because the tradies complained that their cappuccino felt less full. And so I made flat whites with chocolate on top. I do believe that a flat white is watery, with less textured milk, but I don't think there's a lot of customers out there that are indeed that discerning. And fun fact, I had a friend come from italy a while ago, and for some of them over there, their 'traditional' cappuccino also had chocolate now too, so it indeed depends where you go!
I work in an Italian cafe in Glasgow, and our sizes and ratios are all over the place. Our tall latte glasses are 8oz, which look large but are actually the same volume as our ceramic cups which we use for both cappuccini and flat whites. So if someone is sitting in, all 3 are the same except for amount of foam and addition of chocolate powder. But then we have 8oz AND 12oz takeaway cups, and we use 12oz for latte/capp and 8oz for flat white. For every one of these (both sit in and takeaway) we use a double shot. We don't weigh them, but I would guess they're around 40g.
My recipe at home is 19g in 38g out ristretto, then I do about 160ml of steamed milk, for a 200ml cup with essentially 1:4 ratio. This still lets me taste the flavour of the coffee without it being too bitter, and not too much milk to drown out all the coffee taste
man... I hate the fact that when I order a cappuccino at a new coffee shop or even with a barista i haven't seen before... It's a roll of the dice for what I get. sure, flat white and latte... leave them as the same thing if you'd like... BUT, a cap has a significantly different foam profile. thick frothy and with less milk per 2 shots than the others. I dont want or care about latte art if its not the drink I ordered, you can practice with other customers thanks.
This is something I noticed as well but not everywhere and not even in the same coffee shop. There's one shop I frequent in which 1 barista does flat white properly with very little foam and 1 makes it identical to a latte. And both make cappuccino with a single shot (as opposed to a double shot for a flat white / latte with the same cup size). And pizza is not a recipe, it's a concept. You have base, sauce and topping (even a Marinara is topped with garlic). So pineapple belongs in a pizza, just as much as corn belongs in a bowl of ramen.
Interesting to see the evolution. Drank coffee here in Melbourne's Lygon St in the 1990's, very italian at that point: an espresso was for those who liked it strong, a cappucino was strong, a latte had more milk and a flat white was softer still. There were distinct differences in flavour between the drinks and how they made one feel afterwards, energy wise. As a cafe visiting office worker - I do recall considering the differences between the drinks was discussed with friends prior to ordering. Wondering if the advent of "latte art" has led to a stronger focus on the visual vs the contents of the cup:-)
I have to think that the huge amount of takeway coffees that are sold now has an impact on this, where you can order any hot drink in one of 2-5 cups (from piccolo to large) . at this point, the size of cup you ask for matters more than the style of milk+espresso you choose. I am enjoying seeing some more upmarket places offering a small takeaway that seems to be only 150-200ml as well as piccolo take aways - these are my go tos bcz I don't like a milky milk+espresso.
I think when it comes to the pineapple on pizza argument, it's all in a matter of what you prefer. I personally don't enjoy it, but I won't judge you if you do. Stick to what you like, and that goes with coffee too. I won't judge customers for ordering magics or piccolos. Just get what you like. 👍
The pineapple on pizza arguments isnt fair because if you're getting it from frozen or most pizza places they will be using canned pineapple. Pineapple in the western world are baby pineapples which haven't been allowed the time to grow to full size and flavour. If you go to a hot country and have fresh cut fully matured pineapple on pizza it is truly amazing!
The judgment I would make about “magics” is that as far as I can tell it’s just a double shot late in a 6oz cup. At least that’s what my customers seem to want.
I work part time at Starbucks and the way my shop classifies drinks do make them different. But I work in Europe, not the US, so maybe that is the reason. A Latte we serve in our standard cups (Tall, Grande, Venti) with milk being foamed not too long. A cappuccino is served in the same cups but with the milk foamed long, creating a lot of foam. A flat white is made with 3% milk and NOT served in our standard cups, resulting in less milk used. Similarly foamed to a latte and poured in slowly. Still, in the end, the difference makes the taste. But I found this video very informative and can't wait to watch more content of this channel!
Don’t know about other countries but in the UK if you order a flat white, you get a completely different coffee shot to lattes and cappuccinos, (for a small drink in - latte = 1 shot (14g (of coffee grounds)/2) the rest steamed milk and with 1cm foam; cappuccino = 2 shot (14g) 1/3 coffee 1/3 milk, 1/3 foam; flat white = cortissimo shot (21g extracted into 1 shot) and also it’s a different technique to do the milk - you have to make a micro-foam with the whirlpool technique which helps make the correct texture to drink and make the art on top.
When I make milky espresso drinks at home, if I accidentally make too much foam, I’ll just call it a cappuccino instead of a latte. Too little foam? A flat white. 😂 (I only have a manual milk frother, so it’s the luck of the draw sometimes).
When I go to a cafe I don't even specify Flat White, Latte or Cappuccino. I just say "Hey gimme that thing that I want" and they gimme the thing and I drink it.
I'm generally disappointed when I order a flat white and it comes out with some pretty latte art. I ordered a flat white because I didn't want any foam on top. But this is probably because the cafe I worked in for years early on actually had us all holding the foam back with a spatula when pouring a flat white as some customers would complain if there was any foam at all on top. Our coffees would get weighed every few days (or if someone complained) to check that we were steaming and pouring consistently. I like my flat whites with zero foam (without the effort of holding it back), my lattes with about 1cm and my cappuccinos with about 1/3 foam and lots of chocolate. Also 8oz cups mon-fri & 12oz on weekends.
My deeply pretentious soul just fell in love with your old boss... The mental image of a line a of baristas making coffee and putting them on a scale is surreal and beautiful
@@sammiller6631 a cappuccino comes with chocolate/cocoa dust on top in Australia. its just a thing, and i cannot remember a place existing in the past decade that doesn't do it. local custom I suppose. you could ask for a "latte in a mug with chocolate dust on top" and you're essentially getting a 1:1 cappuccino.
@@defvii First, I hear Aussies put coconut in anzac biscuits (and everything else). Now you're saying they put chocolate on a cappuccino? When will the madness end? (No wonder the British shipped them to the opposite side of the world.)
Umm, flat whites are meant to have microfoam though... Latte = more milk to dilute espresso, microfoam finish Cappucino = less milk, stretched to a stiff foam Flat white = less milk, microfoam finish (therefore smaller volume drink, with the intensity of the cappucino and the mouthfeel of the latte)
In England I think this depends whether you go to a specialty coffee shop or a chain or a lesser coffee shop. And ofc it is the battle between what customers want and what the Barista wants to call it
Back around the year 2000, I traveled to Australia for the first and (alas, so far) only time. I went to a coffee place near Bondi beach in Sydney up on a hill overlooking the ocean (I *think* it's following up a nature trail off one side of the beach). That's where I had my first flat white. The person there claimed to have invented the flat white. I don't know if they were pulling my leg, but they seemed quite serious. Unfortunately I couldn't really understand what they were talking about (I knew nothing about coffee at the time). However, it was something to do with how the milk was steamed and that it was called a "flat white" because it was less frothy than a latte or cappuccino. I wish I could remember exactly what they were doing -- something like adding some coffee to the milk, or something. Possibly the idea was to make a kind of whipped ricotta cheese, similar to how a very old time milkshake is made. Does this sound crazy? Does anybody know the coffee shop I'm talking about?
There's nothing extra to a flat white beyond less foam. Aussies gave an old drink a new name just to say "they're not like other girls". Flat whites are about projecting an image, just like Starbucks does by giving its cup sizes exotic Italian names for posh effect, but Aussies swing the other way by giving a bland simple title to project a homespun simplicity and rejection of posh foreign ideas.
@@sammiller6631 I mean, I don't disagree with you. What I'm saying is that there was a cafe on Bondi beach that made something called a flat white that *was different* than what the Starbucks crowd calls a flat white. I just can't remember what they did XD. I was hoping somebody else knew what cafe I'm talking about.
I work in a coffee shop years ago, ppl complained why flat white have no foam and I'm staring at them like "should I give them a cappuccino or a latte", In order to fix the problem, I combined it all together and give them americano instead 😐
Walk into a ubiquitous Starbucks in America that is not too busy and order a flat white, if you are lucky, you may get milk that has been more carefully steamed. Works for me sometimes when you are away from home
Yes, of course it matters. They are different drinks. Sometimes I want a flat white, sometimes a cappuccino, sometimes a cortardo. Here in the UK cappuccinos and flat whites are usually brimming with too much milk (to the point you can barely pick up the cup) and are horribly bland. On occasions I do return drinks not made properly.
In the UK Costa did a decent job of differentiating the 3 drinks (and doing some wet foam/dry foam thing with their cappuccino) but that's a recipe choice, not gospel. The 10oz(?) Flat White was a bold departure from it's Aussie/NZ origins, and then they bastardized it further to appeal to a wider audience. Most specialty places still use a standard double shot as the base, and then tiny differentials in milk volume, which essentially make them the same drink.
Yes! Pineapple belongs on pizza. It really enhances the umami flavour and provides balance to the saltiness of the cured meat. But I don't call it pizza for the sake of our Italian friends, just a flat pie with toppings.
Maybe it even depends on the country where you order your drink. A German coffee roaster explained, that actually for a cappuccino you use a single shot Espresso but for the Americano it’s a Ristretto. But because most shops don’t tend to have an extra grinder for Ristretto they use a double shot instead which in fact makes it almost the same as the Latte. But actually Café Latte in Germany is 2/3 milk, not too much foam on top and 1/3 filtered coffee.
I'm a baby barista and new to the finer coffee world and even I couldn't tell the difference between them. I think you could throw the cortado into the mix. All of them have way too much milk. Even being a baby, I can make these drinks at home in the correct proportions where the coffee flavor is much better (still working on my art 😊) Thanks for the great vid.
Well, that is not a good coffee place to be honest. A cortado should be one shot espresso with a dash (but never more than 50%) of hot milk and not texturized. Is usually served in the smallest cup and is 50-60ml. In essence it should be similar to an italian macchiato, although macchiato should really be only a dash of milk, 50% milk is already too much.
I think this is by far my favorite video from SMCR in a while! Kudos! This was clear and concise. Thank you for making this video. I hope as many people can watch this as possible. And yes,...pineapple on pizza; all the way!
If you can't tell the difference, the shop you're going to isn't doing their job or you're not a experienced espresso drinker. I don't care for paper cups as young Baristas can't seem to grasp the concept of not touching the drinking surfaces of the cup:-( That said, all (3) shops I go to, offer a 8oz paper cup for Cappuccino, same as their china cups for the same. The 8oz. cups seems to allow room for a authentic Cappuccino plus a bit extra for Latte art if this is requested or wanted.
It matters because we set a standard. I should be able to walk into a café anywhere in the world and order a Cappuccino, Latte or flat white and we are all speaking the same language. In short, I get what I ordered (not what the barista wants to give me). It doesn't mean you can't put your own twist on something, it just shouldn't be called the same thing. When I order something by the meter then I know how long that is because the world has agreed on that standard. McDonalds' (love them or hate them) has thrived because no matter where you go you know what to expect when you order your burger. That's one reason I like to make my own Espresso, I get it just the way I want it and if I don't, I've only got myself to blame.🙂
Partially agree. I don't think there needs to be some global standard. Countries should be able to develop their own palette and tastes. McDonald's is a singular business. Who wants their coffee to be pumped out with the uniformity of fast food? Sure it means some places aren't to your taste but I like trying different cafes.
@@Dparrey True. I'm not saying it has to be 'exactly' standard, as I said it can have it's own twist. I used to like trying different cafes but after not getting what I ordered so many times I usually stick to the ones I like. This is hard when you're travelling to the point that if I'm going to pay a premium and get really bad coffee I'll just opt for instant😵💫 (that's how bad it can be!). I'll give another example, If I walk into a bar (sounds like the beginning of a joke) and order a rum and coke, a scotch and dry or even a cocktail, I pretty much know what I'm going to get. Sure there will be some variation and most times you'll be asked what sized glass, do you want ice with that, do you want a straw? Those drinks follow a standard, beer does as well. I'm pretty sure you'd complain if you got 12 ozs of soda and 1 oz of scotch in your Scotch and soda. I think coffee should be treated with the same respect.
Kind of how I make coffee for friends visiting; Black or White? If White, foam or no foam? So much simpler without all the assumption/expectation of what a cappuccino, flat white or latte is suppose to be.
Well here in Argentina everybody add sugar to the coffee hehe, and the cappuccino is like a hot chocolate with a shot of espresso and milk cream covered with cocoa and cinnamon powder 😄
The difference between a latte and flat white from costa, starbucks or similar coffee shops is how long the espresso is poured for. The longer the espresso gets poured the more bitter it gets, so a normal espresso from costa for a latte is poured for 20 seconds, but the espresso for a flat white is poured for 14 seconds creating the sweeter taste. Similar to a cortado.
I think that most places that I frequent, make flat-white with a double shot of espresso and milk. A cappuccino would have single shot and slightly more milk. Basically, most places come down to flat-white being more coffee, less milk; cappuccino being more milk less coffee. Cup size is severely different. I'd say sometimes the size is 30-50% different between FW & CP (fw being smaller). This is Ukraine. When I was drinking coffee in Denmark (Coffee Collective, fucking brilliant place), I'd say the cup size and dosing difference was similar in a way but I have no access to their measurements.
According to the Italian law I can’t comment on pineapple and pizza, so I’ll stick to the drinks we have here. A cappuccino is an Italian espresso (7 grams of ground coffee for 25 ml of liquid) with 125 of frothed milk, with about 1 cm of foam. A latte macchiato (if you order a latte in Italy you get a glass of milk) is 130 ml of hot frothed milk served in a tall glass with an espresso poured over. Usually a latte macchiato has a thick layer of foam (1.5/2 cm). The taste shouldn’t be the same, although there’s not a huge difference : a cappuccino is more of a coffee drink, while a latte macchiato is… well basically milk with coffee, so it’s more milky, both in taste and texture. On the other side of the spectrum you can have a “macchiatone”: an espresso in a large cup (sometimes slightly smaller than a cappuccino cup) but with only milk foam added. So the taste is a lot more on the coffee side.
Despite the milk foam the real difference is the espresso. Cappuccino should be made with a single espresso. A flat white is made with a double Ristretto. And a latte is made with a double espresso. 😊 or what do you think?
@Thomas Kievit there is a German roster/ Café and they are explaining it this way: based on on a cup size 160-180ml each coffee should taste different. Cappuccino: less coffee taste but more creaminess und sweetness. Latte: more coffee taste but less sweetness. Flat white: best from both worlds. Because of the double Ristretto you have the intense coffee taste of the latte and enough space in the cup for the whole creaminess of the cappuccino. SOURCE: BACKYARD COFFEE
A flat white (my usual order), is a double shot with 5oz (150ml) to 6oz (180ml) of textured microfoamed whole (full fat) milk which usually has a 3-4mls of foam if done very well. It should be glossy with no discernable bubbles on top due to the texture of the milk. A latte is usually an 8oz (240ml) drink with a double shot, steamed milk and a sizeable 1.5cm-2cm of fine foam in my experience. I have seen larger lattes anywhere up to 12oz (360ml) however at some locations. A cappuccino for me is usually a 6oz (180ml) drink, single shot of espresso, with steamed milk and a fair amount of fine foam -- about 2.5cm - 3cm -- and dusted with chocolate and/or cinnamon at the choice of the customer. The foam usually takes up a significant volume in the cup and results in a stronger coffee flavour like the flat white. I've had many awful cappuccinos with dishsoap-like dry foam which used to be the norm, but I think the foam on a capp is much better (at good cafes) these days although I never order them anymore. As for drinks like a cortado....I'm not too sure as I've not seen or been to many cafes that have them on offer on the menus here. This is all from personal experience, though. Everything is subjective :) I live in NZ.
I was taught that the flat white was micro foam and the shot ristretto. I've certainly ordered cups that might as well have been a latte, but I've had some that were distinctly different in texture and taste. Same cup size, btw
My standard is 20 g coffee, 40 ml espresso in a 280 ml latte mug with around 200ml of steamed milk which is usually 2% fat. When I make it for friends I just give them the same and may scale the mug up a size but since I have my machine, grinder and basket set up for how I like, they are usually more than happy with what I give them. They can call it whatever they like, I usually just don't sprinkle chocolate on the coffee for the people that like flat whites. I can't believe I am actually saying this but I really like pineapple on pizza, just like beetroot on a hamburger.
The shop I worked for had all 3 and used different size cups. The flat white and cappuccino were identical in taste. Latte is slightly more milky tasting and thats the most difference I noticed. p.s. Pineapple infact DOESNT belong on Pizza
Interesting! I never really thought about it. But that is maily due to me almost never getting coffee to take away. The interesting question to answer then is: Do all cost the same then? Because I can understand that you would charge more for a flat white because there’s more coffee in there than in a cappuccino. And the same logic applies to the latte. However, if they all end up being the same size and also all contain a double shot of espresso, then the price differences really don’t make that much sense.
I personally disagree and agree at the same time. Given that it's so important the enjoy part of any coffee drink, we can also not forget the traditions because they could get lost forever.
It's important that you get what you enjoy. That is a given. But saying that it doesn't matter that names which should express different things, are losing their meaning? No, no that is not okay and definitely matters a lot. Make your coffee well, but don't mislabel it.
Pine apple, yes some times. Here in Sweden the "national pizza" is Kebabpizza, yes you guessed correct. Pizza with Döner kebab and French fries on top, with garlic sauce and lettuce. 🤷♂ As for the coffee, WOW you make large servings 18-20g in, 35-40g out in a 160-170ml cup (ish 100ml milk) that's my preferred ratio. And I call that a double cappuccino.
Flat white = no thick foam and double shot Latte = mostly milk and one shot Cappuchino = one shot, less milk than latte, more foamy milk than flat white. Even though the milk would be the same, then the milk amount and coffee amount is different plus different cups.
I don't eat pineapple any other time, other than on a pizza. In fact I really hate pineapple, but for some reason love a ham and pineapple pizza. As for coffee... I use to love lattes, but when I moved to Sydney, Australia, the foam on them just got to me and the coffees weren't the same depth/strength as I was use to in Adelaide. Now I drink flat whites and I get by. Perhaps it is just the name 'flat white' makes we think it has less foam and tastes better. It could be a mind thing, a bit like only liking pineapple if it is coupled with ham, tomatoes and cheese... yum!
I think the biggest thing is what the customer expects. These days if someone orders a flat white they want the pretty latte art, and if I served them a more traditional flat white they'd be disappointed, and I work with specialty coffee. So it's easier to give a customer what they want because I don't think it's fair to give people something they don't want for the sake of tradition. The biggest thing is, if you want a traditional flat white or cappuccino, tell me, I'm more than happy to make it! I love making traditional drinks, it's just not what people expect anymore
I would say, the regular milk drink morning Commuter, where milk is used to make the coffee bearable, just buys the name if this drink and the art but wouldn't be able to differentiate the subtle differences in the paper cup. Making both the baristas and his life way easier :)
I've just bought an espresso machine. My version of coffee is not really like anything i get in a coffee shop but i enjoy it and it's a fraction of the cost. Pineapple belongs on a pizza if you like it, it's the same with olives or anchovies or any other ingredient.
There's this new café in Bristol whose menu has the option of black or white and 4oz, 6oz or 8oz. That's pretty intimidating but you just order normally and they use their best judgement. I just like the idea that someone ordering a latte might expect a 12oz drink and receive something 2/3 of the size.
Yes, so agree with this! A few days ago I was trying to order an 8oz dry cappuccino because the 12oz just doesnt taste right, the ratios are wrong, you nailed this! The shop almost wouldn't do it, but they did (and charged me for the 12oz...🤣) however it actually tasted correct and like I try to make at home. Also 100% think pineapple belongs on pizza. 🍍🍕 Take care and thank you for making videos!
The age old question about pineapple on pizza is taking the subject from a backwards perspective. Pizza as an easy going cheap and easy food item for the working class, utilizing a flatbread and chucking on top bits of food items that are readily available, even though pineapple may be a bit of an exotic item in many parts of the world - the question should be "is it food?" - if the answer is "yes", then it can go on pizza. Everyone saying to the contrary is a bourgeoisie snob who needs to check their privilege and stop being food-acist :P
@@badethics7542 This is why we should all strive to have more collective ownership over the means of pizza production. So that all workers can rejoice in each our own creative expression of humanity through food. We must cast off the yoke of prescriptive corporate pizza that seeks to exploit not only our desires, but our labor. We must strive for celebrating all that can come on a pizza, as the pizza is for the person eating it. If it is a large, then it is for the crowd and as such the desires of those interested in the pizza should be taken into consideration to avoid conflict amongst ourselves. Community pizza ovens, better home pizza ovens... Technology is what can bring us freedom, but the will must be there to see to it that the better pizza world we seek is brought into reality through the collective effort and through the sacrifice of no more corporate owned pizza ovens.
My local independent coffee shop will only serve flat whites in smaller take out cups (not sure of the size). Very interesting video. And pineapple only belongs on the right type of pizza, a Hawaiian.
The western world is pretty big and I'm pretty sure a ceramic cup, not a to-go cup is the standard in all of Europe (maybe excluding the UK, they're weird).
Pineapple does belong on pizza. Not all of them but, I do love a good Hawaiian pizza and I like to add it to my chicken supreme order as well. Now regarding coffee, I completely agree with your sentiment/deduction. Capuccino and lattes are only distinguished nowadays by the lack/presence of chocolate. Anyways the nomenclature is more useful to give a rough idea about how foamy people want their coffee I think.
Not sure I agree that it doesn't matter. I order different drinks depending on how many shots I want and how much liquid/milk/calories I want in my drinks. If I was served a 12oz flat white, I would be quite shocked as I've purposely gone for that option to have a smaller volume drink.
What America and northern Europe have done to coffee is a crime against humanity. These larger cups are significantly less nice and Latte's are horrible. Especially as smaller coffee availability has decline. It is size over taste.
One thing that really pissess me off is how servers will ask you if you want an Americano black or white. An Americano is black, if you want a splash of milk in it that's fine, you do you, but you should have to ask for it, it shouldn't be offered.
Pineapple? NO!!!..... no!, not Pineapple alone! Not sure if you can find it where you are but at Fatte's in Chula Vista California, we have the Deluxe Hawaiian! It comes with Ham, bacon, onions, extra cheese & (yes) 🍍 Pineapple. Trust me, it's the only way to have Pineapple on your 🍕 pizza. Give it a go.. and tell me you don't just love it Ps. And this is come from a guy that HATES Pineapple on pizza
we are opening a coffe shop in a few weeks and we who take care of the coffe have two wifferent way of making, im tradional trained italian coffe, other is trained in america very different way of looking into it. But i believ absolutley in the traditions but we also have to progress and it is also very natural to do it, society does so do we. and one also have to look on the demand depending on what kind of coffeshop you are. but it will be interesting how we will do though
There's no rule that demands barista to fill the cup up. Normally take-away capuchino cup will contain same amount of espresso as the same size latte, but way less milk, because 1) the milk will be frothier and 2) you'd be pouring 1cm less milk than usual (if a medium sized European standard cup). Let's not go down the road of making same drink for three different orders and call it differently for no reason. These are different drinks. :)
@@itsPenguinBoy i had customers complain about their espresso being smaller than americano because they didn't know what they're ordering and felt adventurous that day. Stick to the truth, kindly educate people, otherwise we will soon call salt sugar and that's going to be a weird world to live in.
No one should be calling anything a flat white with foam milk. Why take the flat out of flat white? This is why I’d just rather make coffee myself, yes the names have conventionally become meaningless I’m often disappointed
I have spent a summer having to ask people if they want the flat white to actually be a flat white rather than fully filling a 12oz cup. Most wanted a latte in reality. Although that wasn't as interesting as the difference between a mocha and a dirty hot chocolate.
Pineapple on pizza with some kind of salted cured meat (e.g., ham or bacon) is a godly combination and I won't consider dissenting (i.e., wrong) opinions.
Surely there must be some tolerences for variation on the measurements of the authenticatic Italian cappuccino. It's impossible for a physical quantity to ever be exactly the same.
All well and good, except for the (few) informed customers. If you do want what you ordered & not generic coffee and steamed milk. How do you get it, what words do we use? Case in point, I drink espresso, 1:2.5 grounds to product. At least 90% of the time I get served ristretto. How do I ask for an espresso if the meaning of that word has changed to ristretto?
Especially for cappuccino. For me, the modern cappuccino is basically a latte with extra foam. I prefer making them the traditional way where you steam the milk violently to get lots of foam. Then use a spoon to stop the foam from flowing down the pitcher into the cup so that only the liquid part goes into the espresso. Then scoop out the milk and place it on top of it so it had a good thickness of foam on top (about 2 cm). Finally, I sparkle some fine cocoa powder. It looks great and feels unique. Not like a latte or flat white with chocolate on top.
I've been saying this for years and often got into debates about it. All the nicely made coffees we are getting today are basically variations of the Flat White. The cappuccino and latte have lost their distinctive differences.
Ironically my local Costa actually makes 3 quite distinctive drinks if you got for cap/flat/late. Also, as long as you don't mind a dark roast then they're quite nice too. I know a coffee shop is at least half decent if I can tell the difference between my cap and gf late by the weight of the drinks.
what you mean to say is that they are all lattes. The flat white is a singularly Aussie invention that is just a small latte. This is all their fault and the confusion is endless.
@@SpencerDonahue almost. The little microfoam top that makes latte art feasible is the flat white. A latte and cappuccino had thicker stiff foam slathered on top at the end of the pour. A modern latte is just a bit flat white.
@@naycnay except that the latte came before the flat white, so you're just patting yourself on the back for being Australian at this point. Latte art was first done in the 1980's by David Shomer, so why should we assign originality to the Aussie flat white when it is just a latte with a different name? The nuance you described is a meaningless attempt to differentiate something that isn't different.
@@SpencerDonahue I'm not Australian. Latte art was not first done by Shomer. You can easily read up that he saw a picture of a heart that an Italian cafe produced. He figured out how to do it, practiced it, and made a course and named the technique Latte Art and made it a staple of his cafe. He redefined the latte and popularised it. He did this at the end of the 80s. The flat white is argued back towards the mid 80s. The difference is the flat white was a drink and latte art is a technique that creates a resulting drink, which redefined the latte over the years. The term latte has been used since the 50s. Either way the flat white and the modern latte converged and now all three drinks (including the capp) are now basically the same but with different amounts of milk. Milk was textured differently before the wave of microfoam and latte art, and the old school lattes and capps were very different and the flat white is the first claimed drink that introduced this modern style of texturing milk and pouring a thin head of foam.
Still don't understand why Aussies put lattes in glass with no handle. Not enjoyable to drink out of at all. And can't grasp why any takeaway drinks are fluid ounces, in a land of metric.
The texture of the milk is what separates a cappuccino in my opinion you shouldn’t be able to do latte art on cappuccino, this makes the drink way stronger (less milk) than a latte or flat white. My other pet peeve is how comically large espresso drinks are getting, a 12oz latte is already on the brink of too big but at least here in the states Starbucks normalized 20oz drinks and that is just way too much milk for me to comfortably drink. I’ve been to places where 12oz is the standard for a latte, and my preferred 8oz is becoming harder and harder to find. Even Gibraltars/cortados are getting bigger. Hell drink size expansion is what pushed me to do espresso at home, so I can have my 5oz cortado, 6oz cappuccino, and 8oz lattes, all built on top of a double shot of espresso with 18g in and 36g out.
Yes. Pineapple is great on pizza. I also like to have mushrooms on mine. I have some friends who like it as well and we call it the fruit and fungus pizza! Doesn't sound delicious but it is!
this tired argument between baristas and customers who want a "large cappuccino", and also between people within the coffee world is making me realize why I love the new trend at 3rd wave shops to just have a menu of "espresso" or "espresso + milk."
Ah, but how *much* milk..? XD
Once when ordering a double espresso, I got what was arguably a latte, or maybe an espresso version of a cafe au lait...? I had to send that back with a "WTF are you doing?"
I don't think they often got people ordering black coffee and plain espresso.
@@jameshaulenbeek5931 This happened to me once at a Starbucks in the US. I drank it anyways because they essentially gave me a latte $2 off.
@@jameshaulenbeek5931 I once ordered a doppio and the barista made me a cappuccino with two shots.
When I opened my Coffee Shop in Germany, we didnt want to have a 'big cappuccino' on the menu (because obvious reasons) but after a while we had to give in. People would always order it even if it wasnt on the menu, some people would even start ordering a "flat white but in a big cup"... most people just want a big hot cup with caffeine and milk, kinda sucks when you are a barista who cares.
The irony is the majority of people who ask you the difference probably couldn't taste it even if you worked really hard to make all 3 distinct. The differences have become so subtle, all that really changes is the espresso:milk ratio, so, how strong do you like your coffee?
That’s all the difference has ever been
Very few people within the coffee industry openly admit the way the milk is being steamed now altered drastically. The vast majority of coffee shops offers a substandard, watery, and bland cappuccino where the milk is seriously understeamed in favour of good or excellent latte art. Luckily enough, I part-time in a small cafe where the pattern is absolutely secondary and solid steam and pour is of a paramount importance.
Glad someone has finally saidit , if you enjoy it then that is all that counts. Have made my own coffee drinks (read beyond drip) at home for over 20 years now and have, over time, changed my coffee/milk ratios to suit my taste. You could never officially call anything I make a flat white, or a latte, or a cappuccino, but it is perfect for me (and large) and I'd put it up as a winner against any of the chain products here in Canada especially as soon as you get to takeaway size cups. Oh and by the way, pineapple is great on pizza :-).
I love telling my other friends that if you order a takeaway flat white or latte, you’ll get the same thing
I guess that's the US. Here in Europe, latte has much bigger milk to coffee ratio than flat white. Caffe latte is typically prepared in a 200-250 ml cup with *one* standard shot of espresso and filled with steamed milk, while flat white usually in a 150-200ml cup with *two* shots of espresso. Specialized coffee shops here usually have 3 size to go cups btw. And even with the same size cups, they are usually okay not filling it to the top if it's not needed by the milk coffee type.
At small cafes that do single size drinks I order flat white to get a small latte. The normal ratio is just way too much milk.
The only place near me that has a "flat white" on their menu is Starbucks (given the company, I doubt they make the drink correctly), and there is a difference in their preparation of it compared to their latte (different espresso amounts, different milk used). I think their "flat white" tastes better, however on occasion I get one where I feel like I just overpaid for a latte.
@@ignatl True. Latte has so much milk in it, you can hardly taste the coffee!
Yeah, it's not uniform across the board. Large potential variability between the two drinks depending on the coffee shop.
Here’s the thing: I enjoy flat white. I don’t enjoy a latte. And if I go to a place that’s attempting to serve me a flat white in a 12oz cup, then I agree, I’m going to get something closer to a latte. So really I try to avoid places that do that.
Thankfully I live in a city (San Francisco) that, for the most part, won’t try to give me a 12oz flat white. The bigger issue I have here are the baristas that argue that a cappuccino and a flat white are the same thing.
I temper my expectations when I see places serve 12 oz flat whites. However, I’m finding many places serve flat whites that taste similar to their lattes both in flavour and milk quality. So I just tend to order their latte to get more coffee for the same price.
@@kockgunner I agree, but if they do that then that probably means I won't visit again. I'd prefer to go somewhere that makes a flat white properly. I really don't enjoy the "thinness" of a latte.
As a small independent coffee shop we always tried to keep the menu super simple, a flat white would be served in an 8oz cup, a latte and cappuccino in 12oz cups, all done with two shots, just the amount and texture of milk would vary. And then we keep getting customers asking for small lattes and big flat whites...
@@KNURKonesur I bet a lot of people asking for a small latte don’t know what a flat white is (or ought to be) so that’s fine. Asking for a big flat white on the other hand??
To be fair, most people demand larger sizes
For instance at my work we used to only serve 8oz flat whites and cappuccinos but now corporate has made it so we're not allowed to turn down a customer who asks for a 16 oz cap or flat white
It's really annoying cus it makes it harder to do our job and to educate new coffee folks but it's hard to compete with Starbucks when they're a free for all of "make any coffee any way the customer likes even if it doesn't exist" lol
I remember a job a long time ago where the pained italian owners just told me to make all of them as if they were flat whites, because the tradies complained that their cappuccino felt less full. And so I made flat whites with chocolate on top.
I do believe that a flat white is watery, with less textured milk, but I don't think there's a lot of customers out there that are indeed that discerning.
And fun fact, I had a friend come from italy a while ago, and for some of them over there, their 'traditional' cappuccino also had chocolate now too, so it indeed depends where you go!
I work in an Italian cafe in Glasgow, and our sizes and ratios are all over the place. Our tall latte glasses are 8oz, which look large but are actually the same volume as our ceramic cups which we use for both cappuccini and flat whites. So if someone is sitting in, all 3 are the same except for amount of foam and addition of chocolate powder. But then we have 8oz AND 12oz takeaway cups, and we use 12oz for latte/capp and 8oz for flat white. For every one of these (both sit in and takeaway) we use a double shot. We don't weigh them, but I would guess they're around 40g.
My recipe at home is 19g in 38g out ristretto, then I do about 160ml of steamed milk, for a 200ml cup with essentially 1:4 ratio. This still lets me taste the flavour of the coffee without it being too bitter, and not too much milk to drown out all the coffee taste
19:38 is not a ristretto.
Yeah and the other person said...that's a regular espresso basically.
man... I hate the fact that when I order a cappuccino at a new coffee shop or even with a barista i haven't seen before... It's a roll of the dice for what I get.
sure, flat white and latte... leave them as the same thing if you'd like... BUT, a cap has a significantly different foam profile. thick frothy and with less milk per 2 shots than the others.
I dont want or care about latte art if its not the drink I ordered, you can practice with other customers thanks.
This is something I noticed as well but not everywhere and not even in the same coffee shop. There's one shop I frequent in which 1 barista does flat white properly with very little foam and 1 makes it identical to a latte. And both make cappuccino with a single shot (as opposed to a double shot for a flat white / latte with the same cup size).
And pizza is not a recipe, it's a concept. You have base, sauce and topping (even a Marinara is topped with garlic). So pineapple belongs in a pizza, just as much as corn belongs in a bowl of ramen.
I miss the big foam domes of the 90s cappuccinos.
Having spoonfuls of chocolatey foam before getting to your coffee is a lovely indulgence.
Interesting to see the evolution. Drank coffee here in Melbourne's Lygon St in the 1990's, very italian at that point: an espresso was for those who liked it strong, a cappucino was strong, a latte had more milk and a flat white was softer still. There were distinct differences in flavour between the drinks and how they made one feel afterwards, energy wise. As a cafe visiting office worker - I do recall considering the differences between the drinks was discussed with friends prior to ordering. Wondering if the advent of "latte art" has led to a stronger focus on the visual vs the contents of the cup:-)
I have to think that the huge amount of takeway coffees that are sold now has an impact on this, where you can order any hot drink in one of 2-5 cups (from piccolo to large) . at this point, the size of cup you ask for matters more than the style of milk+espresso you choose. I am enjoying seeing some more upmarket places offering a small takeaway that seems to be only 150-200ml as well as piccolo take aways - these are my go tos bcz I don't like a milky milk+espresso.
I think when it comes to the pineapple on pizza argument, it's all in a matter of what you prefer. I personally don't enjoy it, but I won't judge you if you do. Stick to what you like, and that goes with coffee too. I won't judge customers for ordering magics or piccolos. Just get what you like. 👍
The pineapple on pizza arguments isnt fair because if you're getting it from frozen or most pizza places they will be using canned pineapple. Pineapple in the western world are baby pineapples which haven't been allowed the time to grow to full size and flavour.
If you go to a hot country and have fresh cut fully matured pineapple on pizza it is truly amazing!
@@jasonmighty3328 I'd imagine that most people who like pineapple on pizza also primarily use frozen or canned pineapple, though.
The judgment I would make about “magics” is that as far as I can tell it’s just a double shot late in a 6oz cup. At least that’s what my customers seem to want.
@@itsm3th3b33 Calling other people's ideas
"useless PC crap" is itself PC crap too. Yours is PC crap from an earlier generation.
@@itsm3th3b33 How do you not realise that even Political Correctness changes over generations, just like accents, fashion, music and everything else.
I work part time at Starbucks and the way my shop classifies drinks do make them different. But I work in Europe, not the US, so maybe that is the reason.
A Latte we serve in our standard cups (Tall, Grande, Venti) with milk being foamed not too long.
A cappuccino is served in the same cups but with the milk foamed long, creating a lot of foam.
A flat white is made with 3% milk and NOT served in our standard cups, resulting in less milk used. Similarly foamed to a latte and poured in slowly.
Still, in the end, the difference makes the taste.
But I found this video very informative and can't wait to watch more content of this channel!
Don’t know about other countries but in the UK if you order a flat white, you get a completely different coffee shot to lattes and cappuccinos, (for a small drink in - latte = 1 shot (14g (of coffee grounds)/2) the rest steamed milk and with 1cm foam; cappuccino = 2 shot (14g) 1/3 coffee 1/3 milk, 1/3 foam; flat white = cortissimo shot (21g extracted into 1 shot) and also it’s a different technique to do the milk - you have to make a micro-foam with the whirlpool technique which helps make the correct texture to drink and make the art on top.
When I make milky espresso drinks at home, if I accidentally make too much foam, I’ll just call it a cappuccino instead of a latte. Too little foam? A flat white. 😂 (I only have a manual milk frother, so it’s the luck of the draw sometimes).
When I go to a cafe I don't even specify Flat White, Latte or Cappuccino. I just say "Hey gimme that thing that I want" and they gimme the thing and I drink it.
Love this! As a coffee shop owner you are 100% correct.
I'm generally disappointed when I order a flat white and it comes out with some pretty latte art. I ordered a flat white because I didn't want any foam on top.
But this is probably because the cafe I worked in for years early on actually had us all holding the foam back with a spatula when pouring a flat white as some customers would complain if there was any foam at all on top. Our coffees would get weighed every few days (or if someone complained) to check that we were steaming and pouring consistently.
I like my flat whites with zero foam (without the effort of holding it back), my lattes with about 1cm and my cappuccinos with about 1/3 foam and lots of chocolate.
Also 8oz cups mon-fri & 12oz on weekends.
My deeply pretentious soul just fell in love with your old boss... The mental image of a line a of baristas making coffee and putting them on a scale is surreal and beautiful
Isn't a flat white with zero foam just coffee with milk? Why would cappuccinos have any chocolate? Adding chocolate changes any drink.
@@sammiller6631 a cappuccino comes with chocolate/cocoa dust on top in Australia. its just a thing, and i cannot remember a place existing in the past decade that doesn't do it. local custom I suppose. you could ask for a "latte in a mug with chocolate dust on top" and you're essentially getting a 1:1 cappuccino.
@@defvii First, I hear Aussies put coconut in anzac biscuits (and everything else). Now you're saying they put chocolate on a cappuccino? When will the madness end? (No wonder the British shipped them to the opposite side of the world.)
Umm, flat whites are meant to have microfoam though...
Latte = more milk to dilute espresso, microfoam finish
Cappucino = less milk, stretched to a stiff foam
Flat white = less milk, microfoam finish (therefore smaller volume drink, with the intensity of the cappucino and the mouthfeel of the latte)
In England I think this depends whether you go to a specialty coffee shop or a chain or a lesser coffee shop. And ofc it is the battle between what customers want and what the Barista wants to call it
Back around the year 2000, I traveled to Australia for the first and (alas, so far) only time. I went to a coffee place near Bondi beach in Sydney up on a hill overlooking the ocean (I *think* it's following up a nature trail off one side of the beach). That's where I had my first flat white. The person there claimed to have invented the flat white. I don't know if they were pulling my leg, but they seemed quite serious. Unfortunately I couldn't really understand what they were talking about (I knew nothing about coffee at the time). However, it was something to do with how the milk was steamed and that it was called a "flat white" because it was less frothy than a latte or cappuccino. I wish I could remember exactly what they were doing -- something like adding some coffee to the milk, or something. Possibly the idea was to make a kind of whipped ricotta cheese, similar to how a very old time milkshake is made. Does this sound crazy? Does anybody know the coffee shop I'm talking about?
There's nothing extra to a flat white beyond less foam. Aussies gave an old drink a new name just to say "they're not like other girls". Flat whites are about projecting an image, just like Starbucks does by giving its cup sizes exotic Italian names for posh effect, but Aussies swing the other way by giving a bland simple title to project a homespun simplicity and rejection of posh foreign ideas.
@@sammiller6631 I mean, I don't disagree with you. What I'm saying is that there was a cafe on Bondi beach that made something called a flat white that *was different* than what the Starbucks crowd calls a flat white. I just can't remember what they did XD. I was hoping somebody else knew what cafe I'm talking about.
I work in a coffee shop years ago, ppl complained why flat white have no foam and I'm staring at them like "should I give them a cappuccino or a latte", In order to fix the problem, I combined it all together and give them americano instead 😐
Walk into a ubiquitous Starbucks in America that is not too busy and order a flat white, if you are lucky, you may get milk that has been more carefully steamed. Works for me sometimes when you are away from home
Yes, of course it matters. They are different drinks. Sometimes I want a flat white, sometimes a cappuccino, sometimes a cortardo.
Here in the UK cappuccinos and flat whites are usually brimming with too much milk (to the point you can barely pick up the cup) and are horribly bland.
On occasions I do return drinks not made properly.
In the UK Costa did a decent job of differentiating the 3 drinks (and doing some wet foam/dry foam thing with their cappuccino) but that's a recipe choice, not gospel. The 10oz(?) Flat White was a bold departure from it's Aussie/NZ origins, and then they bastardized it further to appeal to a wider audience. Most specialty places still use a standard double shot as the base, and then tiny differentials in milk volume, which essentially make them the same drink.
@@chuck1804 Isn't the Flat White itself a bastardization?
@@sammiller6631 Nah, the Flat White is just evolution! The "Flat Mocha" however... should not be a thing.
@@chuck1804 No, the Flat White is de-evolution if you're taking out stuff. Yabbo can't have no fancy tucker. What would his mates think?
@@sammiller6631 Ok Bruce but err, what're we taking out now? 😉
Yes! Pineapple belongs on pizza. It really enhances the umami flavour and provides balance to the saltiness of the cured meat. But I don't call it pizza for the sake of our Italian friends, just a flat pie with toppings.
I was originally told that a flat white vs a latte was how heavily they textured the steamed milk.
As a British Flat White drinker...anywhere that serves a half-decent Flat While serves it in a smaller cup...even smaller takeaway cups.
Maybe it even depends on the country where you order your drink. A German coffee roaster explained, that actually for a cappuccino you use a single shot Espresso but for the Americano it’s a Ristretto. But because most shops don’t tend to have an extra grinder for Ristretto they use a double shot instead which in fact makes it almost the same as the Latte. But actually Café Latte in Germany is 2/3 milk, not too much foam on top and 1/3 filtered coffee.
I'm a baby barista and new to the finer coffee world and even I couldn't tell the difference between them. I think you could throw the cortado into the mix. All of them have way too much milk. Even being a baby, I can make these drinks at home in the correct proportions where the coffee flavor is much better (still working on my art 😊) Thanks for the great vid.
Well, that is not a good coffee place to be honest. A cortado should be one shot espresso with a dash (but never more than 50%) of hot milk and not texturized. Is usually served in the smallest cup and is 50-60ml. In essence it should be similar to an italian macchiato, although macchiato should really be only a dash of milk, 50% milk is already too much.
I love pineapple on pizza
I think this is by far my favorite video from SMCR in a while! Kudos! This was clear and concise. Thank you for making this video. I hope as many people can watch this as possible.
And yes,...pineapple on pizza; all the way!
Glad you enjoyed it!
If you can't tell the difference, the shop you're going to isn't doing their job or you're not a experienced espresso drinker. I don't care for paper cups as young Baristas can't seem to grasp the concept of not touching the drinking surfaces of the cup:-(
That said, all (3) shops I go to, offer a 8oz paper cup for Cappuccino, same as their china cups for the same. The 8oz. cups seems to allow room for a authentic Cappuccino plus a bit extra for Latte art if this is requested or wanted.
As someone who only recently started getting into coffee this is very relieving in a way lol
It matters because we set a standard. I should be able to walk into a café anywhere in the world and order a Cappuccino, Latte or flat white and we are all speaking the same language. In short, I get what I ordered (not what the barista wants to give me). It doesn't mean you can't put your own twist on something, it just shouldn't be called the same thing. When I order something by the meter then I know how long that is because the world has agreed on that standard. McDonalds' (love them or hate them) has thrived because no matter where you go you know what to expect when you order your burger.
That's one reason I like to make my own Espresso, I get it just the way I want it and if I don't, I've only got myself to blame.🙂
Partially agree. I don't think there needs to be some global standard. Countries should be able to develop their own palette and tastes. McDonald's is a singular business. Who wants their coffee to be pumped out with the uniformity of fast food? Sure it means some places aren't to your taste but I like trying different cafes.
@@Dparrey True. I'm not saying it has to be 'exactly' standard, as I said it can have it's own twist. I used to like trying different cafes but after not getting what I ordered so many times I usually stick to the ones I like. This is hard when you're travelling to the point that if I'm going to pay a premium and get really bad coffee I'll just opt for instant😵💫 (that's how bad it can be!).
I'll give another example, If I walk into a bar (sounds like the beginning of a joke) and order a rum and coke, a scotch and dry or even a cocktail, I pretty much know what I'm going to get. Sure there will be some variation and most times you'll be asked what sized glass, do you want ice with that, do you want a straw? Those drinks follow a standard, beer does as well. I'm pretty sure you'd complain if you got 12 ozs of soda and 1 oz of scotch in your Scotch and soda. I think coffee should be treated with the same respect.
The ratio piece is the key. I hate ordering lattes because it’s usually all milk. I want coffee with steamed milk, not the other way around
Kind of how I make coffee for friends visiting; Black or White? If White, foam or no foam? So much simpler without all the assumption/expectation of what a cappuccino, flat white or latte is suppose to be.
Well here in Argentina everybody add sugar to the coffee hehe, and the cappuccino is like a hot chocolate with a shot of espresso and milk cream covered with cocoa and cinnamon powder 😄
The difference between a latte and flat white from costa, starbucks or similar coffee shops is how long the espresso is poured for. The longer the espresso gets poured the more bitter it gets, so a normal espresso from costa for a latte is poured for 20 seconds, but the espresso for a flat white is poured for 14 seconds creating the sweeter taste. Similar to a cortado.
I think that most places that I frequent, make flat-white with a double shot of espresso and milk. A cappuccino would have single shot and slightly more milk.
Basically, most places come down to flat-white being more coffee, less milk; cappuccino being more milk less coffee. Cup size is severely different. I'd say sometimes the size is 30-50% different between FW & CP (fw being smaller). This is Ukraine. When I was drinking coffee in Denmark (Coffee Collective, fucking brilliant place), I'd say the cup size and dosing difference was similar in a way but I have no access to their measurements.
According to the Italian law I can’t comment on pineapple and pizza, so I’ll stick to the drinks we have here. A cappuccino is an Italian espresso (7 grams of ground coffee for 25 ml of liquid) with 125 of frothed milk, with about 1 cm of foam.
A latte macchiato (if you order a latte in Italy you get a glass of milk) is 130 ml of hot frothed milk served in a tall glass with an espresso poured over. Usually a latte macchiato has a thick layer of foam (1.5/2 cm).
The taste shouldn’t be the same, although there’s not a huge difference : a cappuccino is more of a coffee drink, while a latte macchiato is… well basically milk with coffee, so it’s more milky, both in taste and texture.
On the other side of the spectrum you can have a “macchiatone”: an espresso in a large cup (sometimes slightly smaller than a cappuccino cup) but with only milk foam added. So the taste is a lot more on the coffee side.
Always happy to see your new video, love your style, charisma, humour, wishing you all the best!
Thank you! You too!
Despite the milk foam the real difference is the espresso.
Cappuccino should be made with a single espresso.
A flat white is made with a double Ristretto.
And a latte is made with a double espresso.
😊 or what do you think?
@Thomas Kievit there is a German roster/ Café and they are explaining it this way: based on on a cup size 160-180ml each coffee should taste different.
Cappuccino: less coffee taste but more creaminess und sweetness.
Latte: more coffee taste but less sweetness.
Flat white: best from both worlds. Because of the double Ristretto you have the intense coffee taste of the latte and enough space in the cup for the whole creaminess of the cappuccino.
SOURCE: BACKYARD COFFEE
A flat white (my usual order), is a double shot with 5oz (150ml) to 6oz (180ml) of textured microfoamed whole (full fat) milk which usually has a 3-4mls of foam if done very well. It should be glossy with no discernable bubbles on top due to the texture of the milk.
A latte is usually an 8oz (240ml) drink with a double shot, steamed milk and a sizeable 1.5cm-2cm of fine foam in my experience. I have seen larger lattes anywhere up to 12oz (360ml) however at some locations.
A cappuccino for me is usually a 6oz (180ml) drink, single shot of espresso, with steamed milk and a fair amount of fine foam -- about 2.5cm - 3cm -- and dusted with chocolate and/or cinnamon at the choice of the customer. The foam usually takes up a significant volume in the cup and results in a stronger coffee flavour like the flat white. I've had many awful cappuccinos with dishsoap-like dry foam which used to be the norm, but I think the foam on a capp is much better (at good cafes) these days although I never order them anymore.
As for drinks like a cortado....I'm not too sure as I've not seen or been to many cafes that have them on offer on the menus here.
This is all from personal experience, though. Everything is subjective :) I live in NZ.
In the UK the flat white has the least milk, the cappa slightly more and the latte the mist milk, all are made with a double shot, approx 18 grammes.
I was taught that the flat white was micro foam and the shot ristretto. I've certainly ordered cups that might as well have been a latte, but I've had some that were distinctly different in texture and taste. Same cup size, btw
My standard is 20 g coffee, 40 ml espresso in a 280 ml latte mug with around 200ml of steamed milk which is usually 2% fat. When I make it for friends I just give them the same and may scale the mug up a size but since I have my machine, grinder and basket set up for how I like, they are usually more than happy with what I give them. They can call it whatever they like, I usually just don't sprinkle chocolate on the coffee for the people that like flat whites. I can't believe I am actually saying this but I really like pineapple on pizza, just like beetroot on a hamburger.
The shop I worked for had all 3 and used different size cups. The flat white and cappuccino were identical in taste. Latte is slightly more milky tasting and thats the most difference I noticed.
p.s. Pineapple infact DOESNT belong on Pizza
Pepperoni Jalapeño and pineapple on a pizza is basically perfection so
Interesting! I never really thought about it. But that is maily due to me almost never getting coffee to take away. The interesting question to answer then is: Do all cost the same then? Because I can understand that you would charge more for a flat white because there’s more coffee in there than in a cappuccino. And the same logic applies to the latte. However, if they all end up being the same size and also all contain a double shot of espresso, then the price differences really don’t make that much sense.
Milk tends to affect the cost of a drink more than the coffee itself, so I'd actually expect the flatwhite to be cheaper for that reason
I personally disagree and agree at the same time. Given that it's so important the enjoy part of any coffee drink, we can also not forget the traditions because they could get lost forever.
It's important that you get what you enjoy. That is a given. But saying that it doesn't matter that names which should express different things, are losing their meaning? No, no that is not okay and definitely matters a lot. Make your coffee well, but don't mislabel it.
Pine apple, yes some times.
Here in Sweden the "national pizza" is Kebabpizza, yes you guessed correct.
Pizza with Döner kebab and French fries on top, with garlic sauce and lettuce. 🤷♂
As for the coffee, WOW you make large servings
18-20g in, 35-40g out in a 160-170ml cup (ish 100ml milk) that's my preferred ratio.
And I call that a double cappuccino.
Flat white = no thick foam and double shot
Latte = mostly milk and one shot
Cappuchino = one shot, less milk than latte, more foamy milk than flat white.
Even though the milk would be the same, then the milk amount and coffee amount is different plus different cups.
I don't eat pineapple any other time, other than on a pizza. In fact I really hate pineapple, but for some reason love a ham and pineapple pizza.
As for coffee... I use to love lattes, but when I moved to Sydney, Australia, the foam on them just got to me and the coffees weren't the same depth/strength as I was use to in Adelaide. Now I drink flat whites and I get by. Perhaps it is just the name 'flat white' makes we think it has less foam and tastes better. It could be a mind thing, a bit like only liking pineapple if it is coupled with ham, tomatoes and cheese... yum!
I think the biggest thing is what the customer expects. These days if someone orders a flat white they want the pretty latte art, and if I served them a more traditional flat white they'd be disappointed, and I work with specialty coffee. So it's easier to give a customer what they want because I don't think it's fair to give people something they don't want for the sake of tradition. The biggest thing is, if you want a traditional flat white or cappuccino, tell me, I'm more than happy to make it! I love making traditional drinks, it's just not what people expect anymore
I will remember this and ask the barista for a more traditional one ;;) thank you
I would say, the regular milk drink morning Commuter, where milk is used to make the coffee bearable, just buys the name if this drink and the art but wouldn't be able to differentiate the subtle differences in the paper cup. Making both the baristas and his life way easier :)
I've just bought an espresso machine. My version of coffee is not really like anything i get in a coffee shop but i enjoy it and it's a fraction of the cost. Pineapple belongs on a pizza if you like it, it's the same with olives or anchovies or any other ingredient.
There's this new café in Bristol whose menu has the option of black or white and 4oz, 6oz or 8oz. That's pretty intimidating but you just order normally and they use their best judgement. I just like the idea that someone ordering a latte might expect a 12oz drink and receive something 2/3 of the size.
Yes, so agree with this! A few days ago I was trying to order an 8oz dry cappuccino because the 12oz just doesnt taste right, the ratios are wrong, you nailed this! The shop almost wouldn't do it, but they did (and charged me for the 12oz...🤣) however it actually tasted correct and like I try to make at home.
Also 100% think pineapple belongs on pizza. 🍍🍕
Take care and thank you for making videos!
Literally had this convo with the mrs the other day explaining that the only difference nowadays is Capps have chocolate sprinkled on top 😂
As a Canadian I assure you pineapple does in fact belong on pizza.
Love the pizza analogy. Cool video.
The age old question about pineapple on pizza is taking the subject from a backwards perspective. Pizza as an easy going cheap and easy food item for the working class, utilizing a flatbread and chucking on top bits of food items that are readily available, even though pineapple may be a bit of an exotic item in many parts of the world - the question should be "is it food?" - if the answer is "yes", then it can go on pizza. Everyone saying to the contrary is a bourgeoisie snob who needs to check their privilege and stop being food-acist :P
this member of proletariat disagrees
@@badethics7542 This is why we should all strive to have more collective ownership over the means of pizza production. So that all workers can rejoice in each our own creative expression of humanity through food. We must cast off the yoke of prescriptive corporate pizza that seeks to exploit not only our desires, but our labor. We must strive for celebrating all that can come on a pizza, as the pizza is for the person eating it. If it is a large, then it is for the crowd and as such the desires of those interested in the pizza should be taken into consideration to avoid conflict amongst ourselves.
Community pizza ovens, better home pizza ovens... Technology is what can bring us freedom, but the will must be there to see to it that the better pizza world we seek is brought into reality through the collective effort and through the sacrifice of no more corporate owned pizza ovens.
@@chandler1193 The revolution shall be won with stuffed crust.
My local independent coffee shop will only serve flat whites in smaller take out cups (not sure of the size). Very interesting video. And pineapple only belongs on the right type of pizza, a Hawaiian.
That's because a flat white in the same size cup as a latte either:
a) Is a latte
b) Doesn't fill the cup
c) Has extra espresso in it
4 years as a barista, just made sure flat white/latte was less foam compared to the Cap tbh.
The western world is pretty big and I'm pretty sure a ceramic cup, not a to-go cup is the standard in all of Europe (maybe excluding the UK, they're weird).
Isn’t a flat white supposed to be made with a double shot ristretto?
Pineapple does belong on pizza. Not all of them but, I do love a good Hawaiian pizza and I like to add it to my chicken supreme order as well.
Now regarding coffee, I completely agree with your sentiment/deduction. Capuccino and lattes are only distinguished nowadays by the lack/presence of chocolate. Anyways the nomenclature is more useful to give a rough idea about how foamy people want their coffee I think.
Not sure I agree that it doesn't matter. I order different drinks depending on how many shots I want and how much liquid/milk/calories I want in my drinks. If I was served a 12oz flat white, I would be quite shocked as I've purposely gone for that option to have a smaller volume drink.
Glad to see a video about this! The homogeneity of milk based espresso drinks is definitely a pete peve for me. Also pineapple is totally fine :) 🍍
What America and northern Europe have done to coffee is a crime against humanity.
These larger cups are significantly less nice and Latte's are horrible. Especially as smaller coffee availability has decline. It is size over taste.
I think it's deliberate to make the cost seem more reasonable.
@@121dan121 Yep, sadly.
One thing that really pissess me off is how servers will ask you if you want an Americano black or white.
An Americano is black, if you want a splash of milk in it that's fine, you do you, but you should have to ask for it, it shouldn't be offered.
HA! THANK YOU!
I'm sick of having this argument and now I have a handy dandy link to send them to this video.
Pineapple? NO!!!..... no!, not Pineapple alone! Not sure if you can find it where you are but at Fatte's in Chula Vista California, we have the Deluxe Hawaiian! It comes with Ham, bacon, onions, extra cheese & (yes) 🍍 Pineapple.
Trust me, it's the only way to have Pineapple on your 🍕 pizza.
Give it a go.. and tell me you don't just love it
Ps. And this is come from a guy that HATES Pineapple on pizza
You always bring a smile, keep it up :)
Thank you! :)
You should do a video on all the coffee shops that put the same amount of espresso in a 12, 16 and 20 oz latte *sighs*
This quick and succinct video explained it very well!
I'm a little late to the party, however, this is an excellent video. Thank you and kind regards.
we are opening a coffe shop in a few weeks and we who take care of the coffe have two wifferent way of making, im tradional trained italian coffe, other is trained in america very different way of looking into it. But i believ absolutley in the traditions but we also have to progress and it is also very natural to do it, society does so do we. and one also have to look on the demand depending on what kind of coffeshop you are. but it will be interesting how we will do though
Definitely set your standard, but be flexible to customer requests, & you'll have a line out the door and down the street!!
@@SevenMilesCoffeeRoasters yes, this is probably what we will do. Have our menu but if a customer wants something else we can do it with no problem.
Good attitude. Informative video. Like.
There's no rule that demands barista to fill the cup up. Normally take-away capuchino cup will contain same amount of espresso as the same size latte, but way less milk, because 1) the milk will be frothier and 2) you'd be pouring 1cm less milk than usual (if a medium sized European standard cup).
Let's not go down the road of making same drink for three different orders and call it differently for no reason. These are different drinks. :)
Nah, I had customers complain when I didn't fill to the top
@@itsPenguinBoy i had customers complain about their espresso being smaller than americano because they didn't know what they're ordering and felt adventurous that day. Stick to the truth, kindly educate people, otherwise we will soon call salt sugar and that's going to be a weird world to live in.
I think I'd be inclined to name the drink after the ratio.
No one should be calling anything a flat white with foam milk. Why take the flat out of flat white? This is why I’d just rather make coffee myself, yes the names have conventionally become meaningless I’m often disappointed
Any pinapple added to pizza needs to be offset with an appropoate ammount of chilli.... then it works well in the adult world.
I have spent a summer having to ask people if they want the flat white to actually be a flat white rather than fully filling a 12oz cup. Most wanted a latte in reality.
Although that wasn't as interesting as the difference between a mocha and a dirty hot chocolate.
Dirty Hot Chocolate... I get it, but the first time I've heard it!
Pineapple on pizza with some kind of salted cured meat (e.g., ham or bacon) is a godly combination and I won't consider dissenting (i.e., wrong) opinions.
The dissenting opinions are usually based on someone using canned pineapple, not fresh slices.
YES. THANK YOU.
Surely there must be some tolerences for variation on the measurements of the authenticatic Italian cappuccino. It's impossible for a physical quantity to ever be exactly the same.
Is the tolerences just ±0.5mm on the mm measures?
All well and good, except for the (few) informed customers. If you do want what you ordered & not generic coffee and steamed milk. How do you get it, what words do we use?
Case in point, I drink espresso, 1:2.5 grounds to product. At least 90% of the time I get served ristretto. How do I ask for an espresso if the meaning of that word has changed to ristretto?
Especially for cappuccino. For me, the modern cappuccino is basically a latte with extra foam. I prefer making them the traditional way where you steam the milk violently to get lots of foam. Then use a spoon to stop the foam from flowing down the pitcher into the cup so that only the liquid part goes into the espresso. Then scoop out the milk and place it on top of it so it had a good thickness of foam on top (about 2 cm). Finally, I sparkle some fine cocoa powder.
It looks great and feels unique. Not like a latte or flat white with chocolate on top.
Love this. Exactly what everyone is thinking but in a way that few are willing to think about it.
Pineapple 🍍 + pizza 🍕 == absolutely the most correctest option!!
I ADORE READING
Wow, the design of that cappuccino “latte art” really sticks out at 0:07! 🤣
I've been saying this for years and often got into debates about it. All the nicely made coffees we are getting today are basically variations of the Flat White. The cappuccino and latte have lost their distinctive differences.
Ironically my local Costa actually makes 3 quite distinctive drinks if you got for cap/flat/late. Also, as long as you don't mind a dark roast then they're quite nice too. I know a coffee shop is at least half decent if I can tell the difference between my cap and gf late by the weight of the drinks.
what you mean to say is that they are all lattes. The flat white is a singularly Aussie invention that is just a small latte. This is all their fault and the confusion is endless.
@@SpencerDonahue almost. The little microfoam top that makes latte art feasible is the flat white. A latte and cappuccino had thicker stiff foam slathered on top at the end of the pour.
A modern latte is just a bit flat white.
@@naycnay except that the latte came before the flat white, so you're just patting yourself on the back for being Australian at this point. Latte art was first done in the 1980's by David Shomer, so why should we assign originality to the Aussie flat white when it is just a latte with a different name? The nuance you described is a meaningless attempt to differentiate something that isn't different.
@@SpencerDonahue I'm not Australian.
Latte art was not first done by Shomer. You can easily read up that he saw a picture of a heart that an Italian cafe produced. He figured out how to do it, practiced it, and made a course and named the technique Latte Art and made it a staple of his cafe. He redefined the latte and popularised it. He did this at the end of the 80s.
The flat white is argued back towards the mid 80s. The difference is the flat white was a drink and latte art is a technique that creates a resulting drink, which redefined the latte over the years. The term latte has been used since the 50s.
Either way the flat white and the modern latte converged and now all three drinks (including the capp) are now basically the same but with different amounts of milk.
Milk was textured differently before the wave of microfoam and latte art, and the old school lattes and capps were very different and the flat white is the first claimed drink that introduced this modern style of texturing milk and pouring a thin head of foam.
Thank you! Great as always! The hat was a nice Aussie touch!
Glad you liked it!
Still don't understand why Aussies put lattes in glass with no handle. Not enjoyable to drink out of at all. And can't grasp why any takeaway drinks are fluid ounces, in a land of metric.
The texture of the milk is what separates a cappuccino in my opinion you shouldn’t be able to do latte art on cappuccino, this makes the drink way stronger (less milk) than a latte or flat white. My other pet peeve is how comically large espresso drinks are getting, a 12oz latte is already on the brink of too big but at least here in the states Starbucks normalized 20oz drinks and that is just way too much milk for me to comfortably drink. I’ve been to places where 12oz is the standard for a latte, and my preferred 8oz is becoming harder and harder to find. Even Gibraltars/cortados are getting bigger.
Hell drink size expansion is what pushed me to do espresso at home, so I can have my 5oz cortado, 6oz cappuccino, and 8oz lattes, all built on top of a double shot of espresso with 18g in and 36g out.
Yes. Pineapple is great on pizza. I also like to have mushrooms on mine. I have some friends who like it as well and we call it the fruit and fungus pizza! Doesn't sound delicious but it is!
You say it doesn't matter, but whats the point of having 3 of the same thing on the menu?
Nowadays the cafes I go to only differentiate between Black and White. No latte, no cappucino