Mystery Solving when 📕 Manual Does NOT Help
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
- If You think that Left is Correct - Let me Entertain you.
Black Diamond GridLock super popular Belay Carabiner paired with Petzl GriGri raises a lot of questions and arguments amongst Climbers.
If you read the manual you will get even more confused.
So I did another Colab with mister Break Everything @HowNOT2 so you can Climb Safer!
If you are getting value out of my videos and wanna feel good - consider supporting me: hardiseasy.com
Because that makes a big difference and is the main reason that allows me do this project!
Deep Thanks!
Ben
Great edit! Good thing you were wearing your helmet standing on that janky table :). Smash his like button, he spent a lot of work on this and it turned out amazing.
You liked my drop tower? :DDD Niiiice :DD
@@HardIsEasy Was the bar already bent BEFORE you dropped tested that? :)
@@HowNOT2 I think the Bar might be bent since this video: ua-cam.com/video/dlvgsGCHkzM/v-deo.html
:DDDd
Hi Ben, I really (really!) appreciate your videos! I‘ve just started climbing outdoors myself and your videos gave me a lot of knowledge and confidence to do so! In combination with Ryans videos, I feel like I have gained a lot if very usefull information on how to, and even more importantly how not 2 use my climbing gear! Thank you so very much!!
@@HardIsEasy Very well put-together video. It will make me think twice about how I use mine now. And thank you for putting my mind at ease with the welding helmet. I was concerned that sketchy table would collapse and you'd break your ankle, but with that welding helmet on, you were totally protected! (BTW, dont worry about the safety weenies - your safety is your choice and responsibility). Keep up the good work!
9:45 "For those who worry about my safety constantly..." and immidiately steps up onto an unstable table. That made me laugh!
That table was really wobbly
I use the black diamond gridlock with a grigri every day, and always put the grigri in the small side. I find that this is easier to use when escaping a belay and more forgiving in any rescue scenario as I don’t have to twist the carabiner at all to remove it from my harness
It also fits the often taught best practice of always screwing a carabiner down, so gravity and vibration isn't helping it unscrew.
Same. I've had people tell me I'm wrong. I think it works better. I've never had a crossload incident.
Same bro🦾😉
I love that you and HowNOT2 have a collaborative relationship. Both make great informative content.
I've been using first generation grigri and BD gridlock for months and if you play around with them just for 5 minutes you can see that it's better to put grigri on the smaller loop so that it doesn't cross load. Just common sense. Thanks for the video. Stay safe.
It's just better not to use a BD Gridlock :P It's just a bad design
@@SonnyKnutson What's bad about it?
@@eyescreamcakefor example that you have to open the gate in order to get access to the smaller "loop". It seems like smart design, but impractical in reality
@@bullfrogboss8008 Why is that bad? I use it as shown in the manual and it works fine.
The DMM Ceros is the optimal GriGri biner IMO.
It has the typical wiregate for your belay loop, but also has a “horn” at the top which stops the GriGri from rotating and cross loading. It’s the perfect biner for a GriGri (and was designed specifically for that purpose).
I’ve used it for a year now and never had my GriGri move out of the correct position, so I never have to look at my belay device and can spend more time focusing on the climber.
Same here with 3 years of use
And it has the wire gate the right way so it'll just clip itself in instead of breaking 😂
or the Grivel Clepsydra K10GS, even better IMHO.
Thats my go to set up as well.
I use the DMM Rhino kiwklock - very similar design but w/o the "double loop" and with self locking gate - foolproof when used correctly
Thank you all for continuing to break stuff! I'm sure you're pushing manufacturers to improve their product, and teaching us to keep ourselves safe. Cheers!
That last configuration is exactly how I've been using it this whole time. The same cross-loading concern was apparent to me, so that last method prevents that problem from occurring. Great video!
Super interesting Ben! I didn't like that BD carabiner from the start, seemed so cumbersome to use. Funny thing is, I saw my friend using it not long ago, with the GriGri in the smaller basket, and it seemed wrong to me. But now I understand why! Thanks!
Yea it took me a while to wrap my head around this as well :D
I also broke the nose of this biner. I was repelling with a grigri but had my belayloop clipped incorrectly over the nose of the biner. The force on the nose was probably not more than 1.5 kn considering my weight. The biner works now as a support for the kids swing...
Waaah thanks for sharing :D I love making these videos to see comments of real life stories :D
I use the Megatron Gridlock with the gat to the right and the GriGri in the large basket. As per your tests, this is the best compromise of handling and safety that I found and it works great for me. Seems super goof enough! Thanks for your research!!!
Same
I put the grigri in the small loop on the gridlock carabiner and I think it works really well that way and in my tests is impossible to cross load. With the grigri in the bigger loop on the carabiner it can definitely be cross-loaded. IMO the gridlock is the best carabiner to use with the grigri. If you put the carabiner through the plastic side of the grigri first, it puts the screwgate on the left side and out of the way while belaying.
So way way way back when the Gridlock first came out, it was right around the time when Petzl was trying to encourage people to stop using the Attache with the GriGri. For some reason, people are enamored with using giant HMS carabiners with the grigri, even though it serves no purpose and there had also just been some testing to show that a grigri could get caught up on the nose and break them. So anyway, that happened and at the time, Petzl and BD both kinda went- well, since you really shouldn't use a pear anyway, if you're going to use the gridlock, use the small end because its more like the asym D carabiner that we want you to use for the grigri. (This was the line of thought I got from both the hardware crew at BD and the sales reps at Petzl at the time since I was reviewing alot of gear at the time).
I never found popping the grigri into the gridlock to be a big deal, but once I was done testing the gridlock, I stopped using it immediately and went back to the asym D carabiner for my grigri.
Agree. this happened to me for the Pear shape. Overall, i will always encourage people to just use a asym D shape for grigri. It is not expensive if you can afford climbing gears,
I use the Am’D.
@@natetronn That's probably fine, but really any small asym D locker is probably the best option for belaying with the grigri.
My favourite belaying carabiner is Ocun Condor. It has independent springy gate that works in the correct direction
Probably the best collaboration of the two climbing channels I so rarely get to watch these days. Autumn will come, will binge both on rainy days.
So glad you looked into this one. Been on my mind for ages.
Great video, love this channel - I’ve been having this very debate on this issue myself! So to add to the discussion
- here is another twist that has more to do with function. When using a screw gate locking carabiner with a GriGri, and belaying in the speed motion using the thumb to depress the cam of the Grigri while holding the rope) the muscle of the right thumb inadvertently rubs against the gate during use. Over the course of belaying someone I have had 2 carabiners get unlocked due to this issue. So I’ve been recommending my students using a Grigri to always put the gate facing away from the brake hand when using a Grigri.
Now that's a crazy way to unlock your carab :DDD But yea normally carabiners are facing away from your main hand since it's much easier to clip it that way...
Thanks for the comment !
Last week I found and easy fix against cross-loading: Before loading Gri-Gri, first put on a dog bone from a quickdraw (tight side) on the locker, which will keep the Gri from sliding onto the long axis of the carabiner. Simple, cheap, effective! The dog bone can even be an old retired one.
Or just get a proper carabiner xD
Honestly first time I saw that Black Diamond carabiner I thought it looked to weird to use. The whole slip gate into that tiny ring shaped spot didn't seem right.
Thank you. Well done. I use a GridLock occasionally, although never with a GriGri.
Please use that table for something other than standing on, and the welding helmet for welding only.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention you and Ryan do an amazing service for the people
Thanks
Doing great making educational videos and I have been sharing with other climbing friends!!. I've been using this carabiner for a couple years now and my 2 cents is if you're dedicated to one device either side is fine but if you like using gri gri for top rope or project and ATC for lead belay I like to keep it separated as over time the metal from gri gri makes scars on the carabiner, nothing dramatic but don't like the idea of the rope polishing burrs. Keep it simple and safe.
This right here, the gri gri absolutely should only be used on on only one side.
Super fun to watch you. It has been long time to watch a video without fast forward or jumping in time. Thanks guys for the lab and real-lifetime tests.
Thanks man! Great to see a collaboration, and thanks for the great information that will prevent me from encountering a potential catastrophe.
I've always felt better about the carabiners with the wire gate for holding it in the correct orientation. Would be interesting to se them loaded incorrectly, and see if they leave sharp edges too though.
When the gridlock came out I got one to use with my grigri 1, belaying for hours a day in a gym. I quickly ran into the cross loading issue. I quicky found reversing the biner was the most convenient and effective way to solve the issue. I never had a problem doing it this way, and you get pretty fast at setting it up. As far as missing your belay loop and breaking the pin, a simple visual inspection (which should ALWAYS be done), will catch this issue easily. I think the risk of crossloading a normal biner is probably higher than the risk of cutting your belay loop because you loaded a gridlock incorrectly AND missed it during inspection AND broke the pin AND cut through your loop because you still didn't notice.
Still, the biner could probably be redesigned to fix these issues, right? Safe handling should not require a lit of special knowledge and work-arounds!
Sorry Ryan, but you're rather missing the point here. Other manufacturers have belay carabiners with better-designed gates on them. The DMM ones (as someone else pointed out here in the comments) have a wire gate that automatically puts the belay loop through if you haven't put it in correctly. The gridlock is not the only carabiner of this type and hence the binary choice of gridlock versus normal HMS is a falacy.
I/my group use GriGri with gridlock. My instructor taught us to put GriGri in the small loop. It's definitely annoying to load; I've been looking at other carabiners. Going to show all my climbing friends this. Thanks!
Have a look at the DMM Ceros. It has the typical belay biner clip for your belay loop, but also has a “horn” at the top which stops the GriGri from rotating and cross loading. It’s the perfect biner for a GriGri (and was designed specifically for that purpose).
I’ve used it for a year now and never had my GriGri move out of the correct position.
@Oscar Have a look at a D carabiner that isn’t overpriced and over engineered. Any old D shape carabiner works. You don’t need a fancy belaying pear carabiner unless you’re planning to take your grigri off to use an atc. Shown this at 2:40.
I love these kinds of backyard experiments, and you had multiple perspectives from other parties you collaborated with! True science!
I broke a Black Diamond reverse lock on a short wall climb due to rope rubbing I called BD and that model went out of production. I had a friend break several US army Issue ones. I trained unit members in rappelling on a 55-foot tower and always told them if all you have are weak army ones use them in pairs with gates opposite except the ones used as brake bars. Much safer than a single wrap and hope your gloves do not melt through.
Awesome testing and collab! While it should probably go without saying, when you make an assumption about some of the configurations being "Okay" since the belayer force is less than 2kN, one's "mileage may vary" for tree climbers potentially falling from a greater fall distance with a static rope. That said, I agree your videos should stay on track for your target audience.
Yeap 2kN to the belayer. In your case of falling on a static rope this would be a diff story.
And thanks btw ;)
The best karabiners for belay loops I've found are the DMM Rhino/Ceros which have an edge specifically designed to prevent Grigri's from crossloading.
Also ocun condor
So good. You and Ryan are my fav climbing channels.
Thanks!
Just got a new carabineer and was reading the manual and got confused! You made a perfect video about exactly what I was wondering! Thanks!
Have you ever seen the DMM Ceros carabiner? It basically improves on this design by adding a notch to the side of the carabiner that makes it impossible for the Grigri to crossload. I use it for climbing, it's basically foolproof, couldn't find any way to crossload the Grigri with it. Such a minor change in design that basically fixes the issue.
Don't have one, but I have a ton of others that also are much better than BD gridlock
I love my Ceros! It’s the best GriGri biner IMO
Ceros with trango vergo is a great combo. I lead solo all the time with that and it comes right along with me as I move up
But the whole point of the wide HMS side of the carabiner is for the rope to go over it (whether tube device or Munter). There is no rope going over it with a GriGri, so there's no point in having the wide side connected to the GriGri, notch or not.
This is the comment for the algorithm! You are great, man! Thanks!
I love this. My wife is a Gri gri or die person, while I don't care for them, so it is king of fun to see these when they fail
Great video! I agree with the point about pear shaped carabiners tend to rotate and cross load when used as a belay biner. I used to have this problem and this motivated me to buy a anti cross loading biner.
I think the most important thing is to be consistent on which end of the carabiner is connected to the Gri Gri. The Gri Gri may scratch the biner. This may create a sharp section (bur) which you don't want to make contact with the belay loop or with the rope if you switch to a tubular belay device.
My two favorite channels doing a collab!
great content, love the collaboration!
Few suggestions if you do a test like this again;
Standard welding helmets make vision impaired due to very dark lenses. I have no clue the impact rating for them as it is often splatter they are concerned about.
Get a ladder not that table before it drops you.
If you are expecting to break metal wear some pants/long sleeves to protect from flying parts.
When I belay, I use grigri wider side to have mobility when belaying. When repelling, I ATC guide on smaller side to keep in place better.
Grivel Clepsydra is the answer. It is another carabiner of the same kind and it is specifically adapted to clip GriGri to the larger loop.
Thanks, I own this carabiner. Very insightful
Ich habe keine Ahnung vom klettern und werde es auch nie haben. Aber Rohdaten sind einfach geil! Vielen Dank!
Really fun and cool video! Thanks for putting this together. The last test was fascinating. Watching the belay device separate and then shred the rope was bananas! I use a GridLock and now I have a few more things to consider for safety from your vid! ;)
"And for those who worry about my safety constantly..." - stands up on a wobbly shaky table.
I just bought this carabiner. I'm going to return it now that I've seen this review.
The shape of Carabiner on the board it's definetively the dignity for the dad of Milhouse
I feel more comfortable with the GriGri on the small side as designed, but I would suggest to pick a side and stay with it to make sure if any burs are created by the GriGri don't affect the rope.
It is always super fun and interesting watching your videos! Very useful for my job as well, working in rope access. Thank you :)) Awesome stuff!
I agree with Oscar. I've been using the dmm ceros for a while now and love it. The spring stop works independently of main gate which comes in handy in certain situations. However, I have had the spring stop get forced passed the hump from a weird loaded position. Other than that, it's badarse. Thanks for videos.
Climb or Die,
BigDogVomit Universe
upvote for spitting out the answer straight up in the beginning
Awesome video, tons of useful information and fun to watch. Thanks!
Thank you as well!
Its in the manual for the black diamond gridlock magnetron. small loop on the grigri side is recommended.
Ahhhh okay you got me good with the *puts on welding helmet* *immediately gets on sketchy table* lolol
Ben, your channel really is one of the best things out there!
That's more than I needed in this life... now I can die happy :D
Gidrlock is produced to be used with ATC Pilot, the shape of the upper part of the carabiner helps lock the rope during a whip. Very simple…il you put the upper part in the belay loop the rope will also lock but much harder
I notice that many years ago, as I’ve got the same. In fact I always used it back forward as you show by the end. Much more better and safer in my opinion.🔝👏
Still very interesting video. Curiosity is a good thing and one of the best for learning new tips. Thank you
Very interesting results, thanks for all the testing ! Also love the HowNot2 channel ! I have both petz attache and gridlock in my stuff, but as a French guy who does both climbing and mountaineering it surprised me a lot that people would try to attach a grigri to the gridlock. Around here people mostly have their grigri with the orange petz attache, which is D shaped and very large. I came to know the gridlock while doing mountaineering. The official glacier tie up guidance in France is to use either two regular carabiners in opposite directions or one directional to avoid cross-loading. So the gridlock and friends are considered as a good way to save weight. But it seems weird to stick a giant griri on a carabiner with a narrow neck in the middle.
I literally use this exact setup -_- . While I feel safe in believing that this is incredibly unlikely, I am 100% Retiring this carabiner...
a little grip tape on the backbone of the biner makes everything better, no I don't climb but I've worked on complex scaffolding fitting so I *have* professionally hung around for hours each day on harnesses with stirrups
since you generally don't have to carry their weight yourself for very far you get the BIG ones for equipment tackle but they all behave the same way
tbh about the right-hand left-hand thing... mechanics learn to be able to do the work with both hands - climbers should practice EVERYTHING with both hands and on both-sides single-handed as well
Love these videos! You truly test everything under the sun.
sure... EVERYTHING :DDDD
@@HardIsEasy Haha not literally of course, but the testing you have done (in collaboration with hownot2) has greatly improved my knowledge of climbing safety :)
Another fantastic video. You are providing such useful and needed info to the climbing community (as is Ryan).
For my part, I have used a BD Magnetron for belaying with a GriGri for many years. I purchased the dual gate version as well but never used it. At least for single pitch cragging, with the belayer below the climber, my experience is that crossloading bascially never happens even with a pear shaped biner (like the standard Magnetron) if the belayer has some experience. I can't recall a single instance over many years and catching 1000s of climbs, and in the unlikely event that it does, the crossload rating can handle it anyway. I think the dual gates are one of the those inventions we would be better off not having.. it allows belayers to get away with bad technique rather than learn the skill properly.
Thank you for this! Always entertaining as well as educational. Keep it up! 🙏
This kind of thing makes me nostalgic for my old timey figure 8.
Ben, when belaying i always have the gate of the carabiner that holds the belay device positioned away from the hand that I’d doing the belaying. I do this so that if I need to free both hands I can quickly tie off the climber on the spine of the carabiner.
Thanks Ben for these videos, very interesting and educational! Amazing job!
I personally find it faster and easier to have the grigri in the smaller loop so I was surprised by the outro. I load the grigri, clip the biner, rotate it, and put it on the belay loop. quick and simple and you can easily leave the grigri hanging on the rope.
long story short, just use D shaped caribeners, less risk of sideload than pear shaped, and no parts to break like the gridlock.
Great video as always, thanks for your efforts! I’ve been using one of these biners and I have found it to be a little fiddly to orient correctly when setting up. My belay loop doesn’t go into the small basket all that easily, and nor does the grigri! The HMS that came with my mammut smart works much better
I use de HMS from Mammut as well (have been since 2019, 3 times a week) and it never crossloaded... :)
Thanks for posting!! Great edit 🙂
Maybe a follow-up email to both companies to inform them that the smaller end should always be used with gri-gri stile devices so they can get their acts together 😂
I use an Ocun Condor HMS carabiner and it has locked in the cross load position before, so I would say it's possible with other carabiners as well as the BD Gridlock. I now rotate the carabiner so the smaller end is on the Grigri
I use Beal Orient express for GriGri. So far did not have any problems, always little loop goes to harness loop. But the design of Orient express is different, wire that separate two loops are not connected to the gate and move separately. Never had a cross load so far, hope will not ever. Angle provide a very small chance of cross loading, movement of GriGri is very little and slide over carabiner is not significant. I think GriGri could not fit a small loop. I will try at home and let you know.
Great videos, keep it up, lot to learn.
Thank you very much!
Hi Ben! I appreciate your job so much, I discovered a lot of things watching you videos!
While watching this one I remembered a question that came to my mind some time ago:
Does it matter if I put the grigri on the smaller loop on a carabiner like the one from CT is that a problem?
thank you very much for your videos and effort to share and search for knowledge!
Hey that's nice to read!
Check the manual of carabiner you have, but most of them are used in a way I showed in the video ;)
On some Belay Carab the small loop is actually very small and doesn't fit GriGri well... in that case it's def not a good idea to clip your GriGri to the small loop.
Currently using the Metolius Gatekeeper Belay Biner, which is basically a slighlty smaller version of the DMM Ceros, both of which have MUCH better anti-cross loading for a grigri.
We had the maglock version, and returned it;
A) because of the awkward way to clip the belay device to the small loop
B) the not-so-great edges on the maglock pinch points (for your fingers)
DMM Rhino Ceros is the same idea but safer, better, and same price. It gets its name "rhino" because it has a little nose that prevents the GriGri from rotating into a suboptimal loading position. Also, unlike the gridlock, the DMM Rhino Ceros belay loop gate operates independently of the locking swivel, so in can be manipulated without unlocking your belay locker (making it really really hard to drop your ATC on multipitch without dropping the whole carabiner+belay device).
Hope the welding flash from those drop tests don't blind anyone... 🤣
It’s not a big journey, literally 2 seconds! 🤣😂 oh my god you actually triggered me 🤣😅
I knew I didn’t like the look of that BD carabiner so I’m glad I followed my gut feeling.😅
Relly cool. Waiting for a video where you check body-belay limits - like at what point spine breaks... :P
welding mask is absolute instrument of safety! nice job!
The broken nose happend us as well some years ago after a normal fall. Definitely not using this type of carabiner anymore after seeing this.
Thanks for the breakdown! Don't use that biner but definitely won't be in the future after watching this
Take a look at the Mad Rock Gemini. It looks complicated, but it is so intuitive to use.
it’s very interesting. this video tell me a lot of skill and acknowledge. thanks.
Good job, I'm writing only for algorithm as the video was undoubtedly explicit.
super good enough. thanks for risky your and that table's life to educate us
table got a moral compensation! :)
Nice collab, fellas. Two excellent channels👍🏻
I feared most for your safety, when you stood on that desk…😂
I like slacklinening :DDDD
I considered buying this BD HMS since I lost that crazy impractical plastic thing from Mammut smart HMS. But at least my carabiner is still safe to use unlike your BD with broken nose. 😁
Thanks for your videos and tutorials by the way. You are doing great job! 👍
As a gridlock user that is really useful. Thank you. I ended up using it as my grigri krab as the top bar had worn quite a bit using double ropes on a normal tube device, softer metal than usual maybe?
Comment for the algorithm. I haven't climbed since the 70's, but this is so great to watch. The tech is so much more advanced, but the awful physics are exactly the same. 😁
I love how the letter to BD start with the word HELL !
You can put a rubber stopper on the carabiner to stop the grigri from moving beyond the bend.
The DMM Ceros carabiner has a horn on one side (opposite the gate) which makes it impossible to cross-load with a grigri. I have one and would recommend it to anyone using a grigri.
You went far and proved that my carabiner is 👎🏼. So it was worth killing it.
😘
Ben always here to teach us! Loved the video!
amaizing man thank for the videos
My pleasure!
nice video! thank you very much!! I've been discussing this for ages!