A note: As I already mentioned carabiner plays a big role in auto-tubers, and although only CT ClickUP / + requires specific carabiner, for the next video I'll try to reach out to manufacturers and get their recommendation on "the best" carabiner for their device. And then test everything again... :D A note #2: In some of my tests I inserted Trango Vergo incorrectly, but it's still nice to know that it worked well, but seems like I'm slightly too dumb to understand this "intuitive" design to load it properly all the time :D Also I received multiple emails stating other issues with Trango Vergo that I'll have to investigate for the follow up video. A note #3: Just received another email with a video demonstrating Jul2 slipping and not locking at all - and Jul2 worked in my tests so well :( So as I already said - there is always more to every story... and I see that creating a Rating table might have been not the smartest move of mine :DD
Hello, loved this video! I use the fish. Have you heard of it? It’s comparable to the smart 2.0 I guess 🤔 and it always comes together with its own security carabiner when you buy it. So far I‘m really happy with it :)
I have a megajul sport and it fails when the wire loop (i dont know how its called )gets stuck in the top off the screwgate in the carabiner, and its works as a normal belay plate, because it dont let the megajul get clousser enough to the carbiner to press the rope
Your suffering for science is appreciated, but feel free to use gloves next time - we will not judge you! Regarding Gigajul, I noticed quite a bit of carabiner dependence. Some are much better than others! Could you test that and maybe reply back? What seems to work well is the Edelrid HMS Strike FG.
@@testboga5991 I use the I use the Jul2 + HMS bulletproof Triple FG carabiner in the gym and the GigaJul + HMS bulletproof screw FG outdoors. so basically the same carabiner, and more or less the same as ths HMS Strike. I've noticed the GigaJul tends to slip a lot when it should be locked off. Like if I relax my grip, the rope will start slipping through.
I think that Jul2 also requires special carabiner - the steel one or Edelrid Booletproof (aluminium with steel insert), as it is not very gentle with alu ones. It can be also a safety issue.
I've been using either a Jul or mega jul for a few years now and have a few comments on technique. You don't need to wrap your thumb all the way around it when paying out slack, pushing it to the side with your thumb or just using the pad (tip) of your thumb to put some pressure up on it is enough to allow slack to go through easily and will not put up enough resistance to hold the device open if the leader falls. The narrower the beam of the belay carabiner is the harder it will catch a fall, I've been using the bulletproof HMS locker for a while now and it's been a good match. The large round cross section lockers don't get pulled u into the notch as far and it can end up with a bit of slippage, not a drop, just a bit of slippage. It was neat to see the giga jul just slow down the weight and not fully lock up since these devices are marketed as assisted braking / friction increasing devices and not auto catching.
New generations of climbers will be raised from videos like this while other climbers will understand why they are still here: they held the brake-side of the rope, Thank you for your videos
Regarding your test results with the Gigajul. In the beginning I had exactly the same results. I tried several carabiners until I found a really good fit. the most important thing was that the upper carabiner axis is as narrow as possible. currently I use a Petzl Frenio, with this the Gigajoul locks pretty quickly and reliable.
The natural choices of carabiner to partner the Edelrid Giga Jul would be Edelrid's Bulletproof (with the steel insert to reduce rope induced wear) and the Strike. In my experience, the former is too large, and giving rope is a pain; the latter is better in that regard, and I believe that Edelrid itself sells this pairing as a set.
Hi Ben, your videos are great, I really appreciate them for scientific explanations made simple and understandable by all. Amazing quality. 👍👍 Thank you Ben 😀 PS: In case you want to suffer less, the use of gloves doesn't change the quality of the evidences.😉
I'm sure no matter what is in this video there are still gonna be people talking about how obviously the Grigri is the problem and body belays are the best kind of belay. Regardless, this is a great video and there's a lot of good info here.
Great work! For your No-Slack fall with the Vergo at 16:25, you have the device facing the opposite direction as Trango instructs (the handle should be pointing at you, not away from you when attached to the carabiner, before you twist the device into a normal belay position. See the owner's manual). I don't believe it would fail this scenario if set up properly.
The Giga Jul slowly slipping is something I experienced myself (not while climbing, but while testing), though it depends on the rope and the carabiner. It's not really a safety issue in sport climbing IMO because it still slows the rope to a speed where hitting the ground isn't dangerous. However, if you thought you could rappel without a third hand, you can't do that with many ropes because instead of stopping you it will keep slowly sliding down if you let go of the rope.
The weight of the rope while rappelling is sufficient to stop you completely for most of the rappel while in assisted breaking mode with the ropes I've used. I rappel without a friction hitch while using the giga in this mode. I still tie a cat knot when going hands free for something. A double rope rappel has so much rope weight below the device that I just rappel in manual mode with a friction hitch backup; in assist mode it's a miserable, slow, annoying experience until you are 2/3 of the way down the rappel line for very long rappels.
I feel like the revo is so misunderstood, the assisted breaking is not ever supposed to engage except for those really catastrophic situations. Generally, it provides zero assistance and it's big selling point is it being an extremely smooth tube style belay
Exactly, I haven't used it extensively but you basically belay with it like a regular ATC-style device and the full lock-up is there in case you mess up or get injured.
@@Yildun28 No if you hold onto the brake strand, the device brakes on the friction teeth like a regular ATC and thus the rotating cam doesn't spin fast or engage at all.
I used the revo for a bit. I wish it were easier to engage the lock when someone was hanging. And I also accidentally engaged the lock when quickly pulling in slack which caused some headaches. With more experience that would probably go away or I could recover from it smoothly. Kind of hoping they can figure out a 2.0 with some improvements because I did love how smoothly it fed out slack
@@belavandervoort I'd never thought about either of those situations! the first seems super annoying, that's my favorite thing about using a grigri! The second seems like it could be dangerous?
Thank for the video and all the testing, I use the GigaJul always taking as much care as possible but after watching this I'll surely be more concentrated even when belaying, I would love to see the alpine up tested
hi, fellow MegaJul owner here. I've tried "hand adove the device" experiment today, and was not able to replicate jul2 success with it :( when my break strand is perfectly parallel to the load strand it just sits there, providing no friction (like BD pilot in the video) and not being pulled down towards the carabiner. It locks if the break strand is leaning forward even a tiny bit though. My opinion is that it depends on where the center of gravity of the tube is - if the tail (lever) is heavy the device tends to tilt forward and is engaged. Jul2 seams to have bulkier handle, and there's less metal on the other side, so my guess it tends to rotate itself forward more than megaJul
Thx for all this tests! After watching this, I´m still a big fan of "Jul2", because it manages all the situations quite well while in addition have good resistance against dirt etc. and performs well with extremly worn ropes, because the mechanik is very simple. I did some tests like this over water with myself (belay myself in toprope and take a fall with no hands on the device) and ~90 % it stops me completely. The rest of the cases (diameter of rope too small, rope wet or frozen or just too new) I hit the water, but the speed was quite low, so I wouldnt expect injuries if the water is "true" ground. Even Grigri and Clickup failed in my tests, because if you belay yourself with no hand on brake side, the ropes are pointing up parallel like in your tests.
And that's why we wear gloves for belaying. Thx for the high quality of your vids, the scientific aimed focus is so amazing, u're the GOAT ! But still, how brave you are to drive these experiences bare handed. Hope bruises weren't to itchy, take care of you and keep shining in the YT climbing game as in our hearts. Best regards from south of France.
Bought the Jul2 because this video. Seems the best in terms of value and features/safety AND ease of use. I LOVE it, have had it for a few weeks now, gone belaying like 4 times with it now, it's very intuitive imo.
I would say: don't get it. It really interferes with taking and giving rope. It's like riding a bike with training wheels on. Just leave your break hand where it belongs. Smart is amazing and Smarter is not really needed for belayers with some experience.
@@Nerazzurri87I don't find that it interferes much. Smart2+ is my favorite device, just so simple and with the Mammut trunk, it's easy to regulate the friction level. And while correct usage and safety discipline is always the most important thing, I always like redundancy.
I have a quick question, in which mode is the GigaJul setup? I saw the yellow lever up... I don't usually use it as usual. Thanks so much for doing this video and also without globes, you're really brave 😆
@@HardIsEasy The tube mode ("manual" mode) can arguably still be useful. For instance on ifsc competitions the belayers may only use manual devices. The manual mode on the Gigajul can also be used for rappelling and it enables the guide mode functionality for belaying from above.
I have nothing to add to this discussion other than thank you for fantastic content. And also for the algorithm to increase your visibility. Years ago you explained how youtubes monetization alone could not enable you to create more content (if I remember correctly it was 1$ ranging from a 1k to 10k views). This video series is so good for just general safety awareness. It may actually save lives. And so, if youtube thinks they can make money off your videos, they plug them really hard on peoples recommended videos. I heard commenting helps for that. So here's my contribution to making the world a better place. Right from my couch :-)
Great video! It's very useful to know the limits and capabilities of the different belay devices. You showed that the gri-gri can be problematic if the belayer pinches the mechanism which could prevent it from locking. This is belaying right handed. I'd be curious if you've tested the similar thing if belaying left handed - but there, the common usage is to pinch the axis of the release level which does not hold the mechanism down. It seems that this method is actually better in this case since it should still quickly lock.
Hello, Great video! i started climbing in the 80's when a 'figure eight' was THE belay/rappel device that everyone used. The complexity of more modern devices is shocking to me. Every climber MUST also know how a Munter hitch works. Occam's razor is often correct.
For reference I use the Mammut smart alpine (the double rope version of the smart 2.0) with a 9.8mm rope all the time. I treat it like a normal ATC, as you should with all devices. I use it for a few reasons over the normal ATC (which I still use for some things). The main reason is that you can hang around on the rope without having to yank on it constantly. Just having your arm below the device is enough to keep it locked. The other is that the alpine can be used in guide mode. The diameter and stiffness of the rope matters a fair bit for the locking. Smooth, rigid, new, skinny ropes will run right through it without the brake hand involved. I think that's a minor flaw, but I consider it safer overall compared to the grigri. That might seem silly, but I don't mean on a technical level since the grigri definitely locks better. Instead, because people can't assume it will lock, so they have to treat it like a normal ATC. Grigris are dangerous because people are dumb, not because of any bad design. The other problem I have with the grigri is not being able to rappel with it. If you do, for any substantial distance or speed, then it can heat up enough to cut through the sheath of the rope. I haven't had it get that extreme, but I did get it hot enough on only a 10-15m rappel that it melted the frayed fibers of the sheath. That just makes me uneasy. I also never ever ever raise my arm to less than about 70 deg from the climbing end of the rope. Doing so is a really dumb idea as you highlighted. Even just intuitively it makes sense if you try both methods. I wish people wouldn't do that.. It's terrifying to see and so easily avoided. This is not a casual sport. You have to know what is going on, plan, and understand how things work. If not you risk serious injury and worse, that injury is usually to others, not the irresponsible person who didn't belay correctly.
Great video. Hope this creates more consciousness and proper use of devices. I personally like the Mad Rock Lifeguard. It's spring is slightly harder than the Grigri making rope giving exactly the same as a tubular device. So there's no new method to learn and no mechanismi overriding. Thanks again.
Thanks for all the hard work and info on this! Very interesting to see the different results. You also hit the nail on the head by your recommendation of “whichever you are most comfortable with.” Throwing someone on a brand new belay device and expecting them to be proficient with it is not good, but basic belaying common sense is going to be the best protection you can get. I personally like Grigri for top rope belaying and BD Pilot for lead belaying due to the simplicity and how experienced I am with it, but there will be tons of preferences based on experience. Keep up the great work!
I kind of wish you had added the ATC to your rankings when you were testing all the devices together - a friend of mine saw your previous video of the grigri fall and concluded that she felt safer using her ATC than a grigri because of it! So I worry that this kind of video, pushing all the assisted devices to failure, might be better with a little disclaimer that the ATC would fail all these tests! Anyways now I'm curious about if there's any way to make an ATC fail in guide mode. Also, I hope you get some belay gloves for whatever tests you do next, that was painful to watch - but thank you for the sacrifice for this amzing demo!
@@FlatOutFE No, I agree, I have one and use mine regularly (my gym ropes are thick and fuzzy enough that giving slack with a grigri is a struggle, and for multipitch stuff), and I like it. But even with perfect technique, an assisted device is arguably a lot safer for sport climbing outdoors where a rock could fall on your head and where the weight penalty and the capacity for using 2 ropes don't matter. And I certainly wouldn't consider it safer than an assisted device.
@@Blue-pb7kz , two ropes are safer than one. Helmets designed for side impacts are safer than those just designed for top impacts. Two carabiners are safer than one. Locking carabiners are safer than non-locking carabiners. In the end we all make compromises. The unfortunate thing is that most people now consider ATC devices as unsafe, yet they have served climbers well for 50 years.
Great video! Thank you for explaining the mechanics of those devices so well. However, you forgot to mention that in the scenario you described in Experiment #3, the click-up would be locked. You would need to manually unlock it, shifting your focus back to the belay device, in order to replicate the circumstances you tested it under. Thanks again, and I'm excited for more:)
Yea I tested all devices in the unlocked state, which can happen in normal belay scenario, but ofc if you lock ClickUP it stays locked, which you could consider slightly safer indeed
@@HardIsEasy once locked it mostly stays locked, yes. actually it's pretty common to have to try to "de-clip" (unlock) it by unloading it and moving it around, because it happens whenever you give slack too quickly and lock it accidentally. But its quite hard to do even on purpose, so you end up having to grab the device (with the left hand) and pull it up to reset it
Firstly, I really like all your videos and appreciate the detail of the work you do. I’d like to comment on the experiment 3, no slack portion of this video as it relates to the Click-up & Click-up+. This experiment is based on the idea that an actively engaged belay device, the example is the GriGri, will disengage itself if the climber unweights the rope. This then leads to your example experiment and the results you explain. However in the Click-up case you, as the belayer, actively disengaged the Click-up+ device, this is seen at 17:46 . If a click-up has engaged following a fall, the climber can jump about and unweight the rope and the device will stay engaged… however if the belayer deliberately disengages the locked device, pushing it forward and up, as you do in the video, then all bets are off! Obviously, whatever our choice of belay device, let’s all hold the dead end of the rope because that’s how we keep our friends alive! Once again, thanks for the Hard is Easy work!
An other really great video which reminds us all in climbing in keeping an eye on the breaking hand and correct usage of the preferred belaying device. Great job!
With the GigaJul, it's very important that not only the rope diameter is correct, but also the carabiner. If its too wide - like the one that i saw you using - you get slippage and poorer performance. It's definitely an issue but one that can be fixed very easily. Funny enough, I've had the best luck using my BD Gridlock. I had similar reaults using my Edelrid Bulletproof. Similarly problematic is using a carabiner that is too small. It requires a lot more force to release. Edit: removed a comment about not seeing people talk about carabiner size when i read a comment by you talking about that.
"So, assisted tubers are very sensitive to this angle." Yup, gotta make sure those potatoes always have their walkers around so they don't bend over too much.
Very interesting !! I really like your videos. One parameter that would be also good to add is how easy it is to give slack with those devices. Because it can also be dangerous to not be able to give slack when your climber needs to clip very quickly. I switch from the GriGri to the BD Pilot because of this and I feel way more comfortable with it. The BD Pilot is so simple to use that you can not do some mistake (ok, except if you dont hold the breaking rope). But with the GriGri, there are dozens of mistakes you can do to make it go wrong... 😁
You don't even have to overrule Grigri's locking mechanism to give slack. In most instances, it can be done by very gradually pulling rope through the divise. This requires some practice to develop the right sensitivity, but it's not particularly difficult. Moreover, by walking a step to the wall, this can made even easier (i.e. to give some initial slack, because if you try this method too quickly you are likely to lock the device anyway). This has worked fine for me
You can pull out slack as fast as you like as long as you understand what is making the cam engage. His previous video makes it clear how and when the Grigri's cam will engage; if there is no force on the break side of the rope, the cam will never engage. Even the meter or so of rope hanging down from the Grigri to the ground will generally have enough mass to allow it's gravity to generate the required force to cause the cam engage. (I am not suggesting you let go of the break side of the rope, but just pointing out that applying even very small amounts of force to the break side of the rope will cause the cam to engage in the event that there is a force on the climber's side of the rope). As long as the cam is not already engaged, you can pay out slack quickly while never having to press on the cam to stop it from blocking. The key is make the break side of the rope "weightless" - ensure there are no significant forces acting on it. Just slide your break hand down the break side of the rope the distance equal to the amount of slack you want to pay out. Then hold your hand up enough so that the rope's weight is mostly resting in your hand - there is no weight pulling on the Grigri. Then with your other hand you can pull that slack through the Grigri, as fast as you'd like. You never need to let go of the break side of the rope, ensuring that there is always enough force on the break side of the rope to cause the cam to engage should the climber fall while you are using this method. This method, combined with taking steps away from and toward the wall to take and give slack (as you have suggested), is more than enough to belay a climber without needing to press on the cam. Should the cam engage while the climber is trying to clip, then you will need to press on the cam to disengage it (using Petzel's recommended method). If you need to pay out more slack after disengaging the cam, you can return to the method I have suggested above.
Use chain mail gloves. 😂 Thank you for this video. The proper technique for belaying is proven to work, meaning never let go of the break end of the rope and keep the rope speed under control at all times. However, I still make a point about the belay technique being the most important. I'd point out to your belay master class series, because it is really good. Another lazy belay technique is moving away from the wall to take out slack, and this irks me to no end.
With perfect technic all of them worked, but the idea is how resilient the gear is against mistakes. We shouldn’t but we all are doing them. It’s the same as in cars. We should just be careful because people tend to rely on this resilience and behave less cautiously. Had read some study where a group trained with grgri’s had made more brake hand mistakes then one old-school tubers.
as for stepping away, it's crucial in cases you need to take out slack quickly, but yes abused for the cases where you want to see your climber better, I have videos coming on these things hopefully soon.
@@HardIsEasy yes. Like in slab situations, but I've seen 5-7m away from the wall, it goes to show how lazy a belayer can be, besides the slamming and swinging hard into the wall. Good habits keeps the mind sharp.
If you're using Mammut Smart 2.0 without the "Smarter" add-on, then giving slack the classical way, without necessarily opening the device, works pretty smoothly.
Hi Ben, Thanks a lot for yet another enlightening video from you! However, I have 1 question: Please could you confirm in which mode you tested the GIGA JUL in? For all who don't know the device yet: The GIGA JUL has 2 modes: a "classical tuber" mode and an "brake assisted tuber" mode. You can choose between these modes by putting a "slider" into the corresponding position. Having these two modes in one device is a great thing for multi-pitch climbing: You can use the break assisted mode for lead belaying (at all pitches) and the standard tuber mode for rappeling and for belaying from an anchor point in guide mode. @ Ben: If you had the GIGA JUL in standard tuber mode during the tests, the results were in no way surprising, were they? In this case, it would be great if you could repeat the tests in the brake assisted mode and let us know the results in a follow-up video! Letting the device compete against the other brake assisted devices while in standard tube mode simply would not make sense to me and does not help me making a final judgement. Thanks in advance for your response. I look forward to it! Best wishes, Frieder
Interesting results with the pilot. I picked one up on sale some years ago and have been using it over my grigri2 since then and much prefer it. Having the rope up or thumb resting under the release catch did feel more dangerous so I made sure to actively avoid those positions unless necessary; by now it's second nature.
It is very important for a belayer to not take out the slack from a fall. The rope stretch can only help if there is enough length of it to stretch. A short rope is a dangerous rope when falling, and one should not rely on the rope being long in the upwards strand for if the anchor becomes a pinch point, the only rope that matters will be between the rappeler and the anchor.
There is no reason to ever have a no slack fall as described with a clickup. Just ensure the device is in the locked position, perhaps by manually locking the clickup, while holding the climber during a rest and unlock the device after the climber starts climbing again. Unlike the grigri the clickup does not unlock if the climber unweights the rope. Even nicer for top rope situation the belayer can easily pull in slack while the device is locked.
Hi, if the climber is lock with the clickup + or not , the carabiner is at the front and if the climber just go up and release the rope, the clickup stay in lock position. So if the climber fall at this moment, he will be lock by clickup. Only a human could use the movement for unlock the click up so it will be a human error to not hold the brake side of the rope. You do a great job, it's a pleasure to see your video. Take your time to have quality.
To be honest, most time one is giving slack, you do not have to overwrite the locking mechanism (at least with GriGri and Jul, the two devices I have experience with). If you are “pushing in” the rope from the brake side and simultaneously pulling it out on the climber side, it works perfectly fine. Only giving slack _fast_ requires overwriting the locking mechanism. But you don't need to do this often if you are belaying with foresight (and some slack in the system at most times anyway). That greatly reduces the risk I suppose. Edit: Nevermind, I wrote this comment ten seconds before you started talking about this. 😂
It’s the lack of locking that makes the click-up the best. It feeds the nicest can be used to slam Someone if needed but otherwise can give a really nice soft catch.
When i worked at a climbing gym, all our top rope routes were equipped with GriGri, and gym membets were required to take a test demonstrating proficiency with the device
Thank you for the video. Would suggest you to do testing on lowering climber too. It is a second cause climber get injured from bad belayer too. Well done mate. 👍
@@aroimicaraffu but what I'm testing? :) If you don't hold the brake hand and force the device to lower ofc the climber will go to the ground. The only thing I can test is perceived control of lowering
I think that part is super rope dependant, though. Switching from a worn fuzzy gym rope to a new thin outside rope, the difference when lowering on a grigri is night and day it's practically a different technique! With the gym rope I have the lever all the way open and control the speed with my hand on the rope, and it's still slow, with my outside rope there's a lot more effort in finding the right spot etc.
Hi Ben, might be good to add the ATC to the testresults. There will be beginners who interpret the video incorrectly and after watching so many potential flaws on auto tubers, will go on buying an ATC.
I actually originally had more talking about each device including non-assisted tubes, but cut that out of this video and gonna ad that to the follow up in the future. I hope that it's obvious that ATC is as risky as it gets and if beginners don't understand that their teacher did a bad job :)
Thank you for all the testing, it was very interesting. I personally use the clickup and you are right it is almost impossible to take slack with the hand being back. My solution for this is running back. But this is no all time solution because it can pull me back to the wall when the climber is heavy.
this is making me rethink the smarter attachment for my smart lol. I never paid it any attention because I was comfortable with the base smart and didn't think the little plastic clip would change much. Guess I'll have to start trying it out
I'll do more testing on that, but my initial feeling is that for thicker ropes it doesn't matter and might even make the rope slide worse, but with anything under 9.5 Smarter might be a good idea... again I would have todo more testing.
I think the slipping in the no slack fall with the Vergo was a user error, the instructions say you need to clip the device to your belay loop with the brake strand coming out towards you, not facing away from you. There is even a little arrow saying left, that needs to face to the left. The Vergos predecessor, the Cinch, had the same issue, they changed the instructions to this way at some point because of some incidents.
Did you use the giga jul in the ( manuell) tube or autotube mode? I‘m curious, because i dont undersand, why the jul 2 perfomed so much better than the giga😅
Thanks for another great video. Quality is more important to me than quantity. We are beginner climbers with my 14 year old son and we are very happy with the Singing Rock RAMA belay, which is basically a copy of the Mammut Smart. It has already happened to me that my son messed up and let go of the rope when I fell. I'm 30 kg heavier and that's not good. I bought an Edelrid OHM three days ago and hopefully it will make our rock climbing more enjoyable.
Yea OHM is great for such cases, be aware that the angle of the rope entering the ohm from the belayer effects how grabby the OHM is. The closer your belayer to the wall the softer the catch will be, the further the harder
Pretty sad to see how my favourite device (gigajul) performs so poorly. Definitely still a safe device if used diligently, and its versatility for multi pitches and climbing doubles means I'll probably still use it, but I'd really like to see a more robust two channel device on the market. In my experience, it does feel like an assisted brake device, and not an auto-locking device.
I'm about 4 years deep into using the Gigajul as my primary device for rappelling and sometimes multipitch belaying, and I second your observations that it assists but is not auto-locking. The friction and performance are also very dependent on the rope diameter/slickness and the carabiner shape/material. Part of the appeal of the gigajul is keeping aluminum oxide dust from turning my ropes black, so I use a bulletproof HMS with it, but unfortunately that slightly triangular shape top bar and the slippery stainless steel insert don't lock up the rope as well as a skinny I-beam aluminum carabiner (which wear down quite quickly). I belay with the giga in brake-assist mode on multipitch sometimes, but I treat it as thought I'm belaying in regular ATC mode.
Yea there is space in the market for a better double rope assisted belay devices. I haven't tested all what exists tho yet... but Gigajul i treat with caution.
Hello, thank you for the great video :) I am a physicist myself and really appreciate your videos explaining things with physics behind it. Just one question: In the conclusion you say the ClickUp requires, in case of taking slack, the hand to go back to the device. But with which device will you not need to do that?^^
I have the vergo and am a huge proponent of it. Super ergonomic and very versatile. Only gripe is that the catch is a bit harder than the gri gri but other than that it's better in every way.
14:08 When giving out rope with a Jul2, I prefer to just knock the bottom of the device with the brake hand instead of ‘wrapping my thumb around the device’. This mostly works to unblock it… (I absolutely agree that there is still a slightly higher risk with using a Jul2 regarding the brake hand. The most important thing is to be aware of it.)
The situation of the device not completely blocking I had in some combination of gear (rope, carabiner) and fall with the mammut smart 1 and the bd pilot. Think after a catch its not that big of a problem, because it gives the belayer time (several seconds) to react and catch the rope. At all these times minimal force on the breaking side rope was enough to stop the decent completely.
Hi Ben, I decided to watch this again as I recently lost my grigri and got a clickup as a replacement. I think there is a fundamental flaw in your experiment #3. Your hypothesis, or, your scenario, is that the climber asked for a block or took a fall, the belayer removed hands for an explanation and meanwhile the climber starts climbing and takes a fall. If that is your scenario than you need to repeat the tests with the device in locked mode, not unlocked. The big thing is that the clickup does NOT unlock itself like the grigri does. The clickup requires intention to unlock. Now, if you start in unlocke mode, contrary to you, I am not surprised by what happen at all, that was pretty much expected. You just ruined the reputation of a very nice device :(
Oh interesting I have the mammut smarter with the smarter plus add on and never took it off. Not that I would ever belay like this but it’s nice to know it did pretty well in these tests. I was a beginner climber with not a big budget when I bought it and my gym requires you bring an assisted device or rent theirs.
I hope you can get your hands on the Petzl Neox soon! So far it seems like a really promising device, and i would be excited to learn about the physics behind it, which i cant fully grasp yet. Also, i'd love to see these same tests done with the AustriAlpin Fish, which is the Belay device i personally use, to see how it compares to the smart and Jul.
Regarding the Giga Jul, as it is kind of the "alpine" version of the Jul2, it would be interesting to see how it react with double ropes. I have it at home and it seems like despite using a pair of skinny ropes, it engage faster. My educated gues is that with one rope it kind of get rotated horizontally, while with two ropes the whole device get pulled to the carabiners.
there's a small mistake on "no slack fall" test with click up. in the example: belayer take, then let go of break strand, then climber climb a bit and fall. your test started with click up disengaged, but if belayer take climber then click up will engage until belayer disengage it on purpose, then with it engaged, if belayer let go, it shouldn't slip at all. if belayer let go of the rope with device disengaged then your test is spot on and expected, device won't ever catch and this is user error on operating the device. I should say that I particularly don't like the click up, but I'm a user and huge fan of the alpine up, similar locking mechanism but easier to handle and does all I need. and once again thanks for putting out good content with amazing quality and foster good discussions :)
Hey thanks, I tested all devices in disengaged positions. In case you loose control of the brake side and climber takes a fall and there is no slack. But sure if Click UP is locked already it is def safer option.
Hi, I don't know if somebody noticed this, and you gave yet an answer about, so sorry if you did😅. Trango give different rules for the position of the belayer in the harness. Trango vergo should be with the "hand rope side" going to the belayer and not outside. This position activate the vergo faster than the other position. In your position, for few time, the rope slide inside cause the Vergo haven't significant bands inside. But, in the other side, the force created for the falling take immediately the belay advice up and the rope cannot slide inside. Can you give me some informations about that? Many thanks
As a new climber, I bought the Mammut Smart 2.0+Smarter (in addition to a ATC) because the instructor didn't want us to become "GriGri-whores" (relying fully on a device) before we mastered the proper techniques. I am so grateful for that, but I obviously didn't want other climbers to risk their lives in order for me to practice my belaying skills...I needed something I could rely on in case I had a black-out. I chose the Smart 2.0+Smarter after a ridiculous amount of research (=youtube and testimonials) 😂 The Smart 2.0+Smarter have so far (+- 2 yrs) been super reliable. I have chosen to drop the Smarter when using thicker ropes, and often use the Smarter only with ropes =
I'm surprised by the difference in the Jul2 and the GigaJul. I use the Jul2 + HMS bulletproof Triple FG carabiner in the gym and the GigaJul + HMS bulletproof screw FG outdoors, so basically the same carabiner, just different locking mechanisms. I've noticed some difference in holding power, but I didn't expect it to be that drastically different for this specific scenario. What I have noticed is that the GigaJul tends to slip more often when it's supposed to be "locked off." Like if my climber falls or I need to take, once the climber is fully weighing the system, sometimes the GigaJul doesn't fully lock and if I relax my grip, the rope will start slipping through. I know this type of device is reliant on the carabiner shape/profile, but you'd imagine that Edelrid's carabiners, especially their belay specific carabiners (as these have the belay loop keeper gate) would be optimized to work with their own belay devices.
I wonder if its possible to design a revo-like mechanism to automatically lock based on acceleration of the rope, so you can tell the climber is falling before reaching high speed
Test #3 isn't relevant for the click-up, at least not for the situation described in the video, because unlike the grigri it doesn't disengage as soon as the tension is released; it stays "clicked" Also it's less likely to do something weird with your brake hand in the first place with the clickup, because holding the brake strand is the only thing your brake hand ever does, 100% of the time throughout the whole belay. You just hold the rope, the entire time, and simply and only do that, hour after hour after hour. There are no cam- or device-holding shenanigans that mess with your muscle memory
We all thank your hand for its service.
I wanted to feel if it's bad :))) so you don't have to :)
And yea in some cases I got unexpected results.
😂 good one…
@@HardIsEasy We should patreon you something like a butcher's chainmail glove for these tests to protect your hand a bit...
Yeah, man will you please protect your hand? You only have one!
This guy is simply a GOD.
A note: As I already mentioned carabiner plays a big role in auto-tubers, and although only CT ClickUP / + requires specific carabiner, for the next video I'll try to reach out to manufacturers and get their recommendation on "the best" carabiner for their device. And then test everything again... :D
A note #2: In some of my tests I inserted Trango Vergo incorrectly, but it's still nice to know that it worked well, but seems like I'm slightly too dumb to understand this "intuitive" design to load it properly all the time :D Also I received multiple emails stating other issues with Trango Vergo that I'll have to investigate for the follow up video.
A note #3: Just received another email with a video demonstrating Jul2 slipping and not locking at all - and Jul2 worked in my tests so well :(
So as I already said - there is always more to every story... and I see that creating a Rating table might have been not the smartest move of mine :DD
Hello, loved this video! I use the fish. Have you heard of it? It’s comparable to the smart 2.0 I guess 🤔 and it always comes together with its own security carabiner when you buy it. So far I‘m really happy with it :)
I have a megajul sport and it fails when the wire loop (i dont know how its called )gets stuck in the top off the screwgate in the carabiner, and its works as a normal belay plate, because it dont let the megajul get clousser enough to the carbiner to press the rope
Your suffering for science is appreciated, but feel free to use gloves next time - we will not judge you!
Regarding Gigajul, I noticed quite a bit of carabiner dependence. Some are much better than others! Could you test that and maybe reply back? What seems to work well is the Edelrid HMS Strike FG.
@@testboga5991 I use the I use the Jul2 + HMS bulletproof Triple FG carabiner in the gym and the GigaJul + HMS bulletproof screw FG outdoors. so basically the same carabiner, and more or less the same as ths HMS Strike. I've noticed the GigaJul tends to slip a lot when it should be locked off. Like if I relax my grip, the rope will start slipping through.
I think that Jul2 also requires special carabiner - the steel one or Edelrid Booletproof (aluminium with steel insert), as it is not very gentle with alu ones. It can be also a safety issue.
"I will do experiments that will potentially injure my hand. I will give ratings based on hand injury. No, I will not wear a glove."
I've been using either a Jul or mega jul for a few years now and have a few comments on technique.
You don't need to wrap your thumb all the way around it when paying out slack, pushing it to the side with your thumb or just using the pad (tip) of your thumb to put some pressure up on it is enough to allow slack to go through easily and will not put up enough resistance to hold the device open if the leader falls.
The narrower the beam of the belay carabiner is the harder it will catch a fall, I've been using the bulletproof HMS locker for a while now and it's been a good match. The large round cross section lockers don't get pulled u into the notch as far and it can end up with a bit of slippage, not a drop, just a bit of slippage.
It was neat to see the giga jul just slow down the weight and not fully lock up since these devices are marketed as assisted braking / friction increasing devices and not auto catching.
New generations of climbers will be raised from videos like this while other climbers will understand why they are still here: they held the brake-side of the rope,
Thank you for your videos
Videos like this are important, because no device is totally dummy-proof. You've established which ones are more dummy-proof than others. Thank you!
Guys research can prevent future accidents.
Regarding your test results with the Gigajul.
In the beginning I had exactly the same results. I tried several carabiners until I found a really good fit. the most important thing was that the upper carabiner axis is as narrow as possible. currently I use a Petzl Frenio, with this the Gigajoul locks pretty quickly and reliable.
good to know thanks. I just got a gigajul and was gonna get the freino for my grigri
The natural choices of carabiner to partner the Edelrid Giga Jul would be Edelrid's Bulletproof (with the steel insert to reduce rope induced wear) and the Strike. In my experience, the former is too large, and giving rope is a pain; the latter is better in that regard, and I believe that Edelrid itself sells this pairing as a set.
Would a megajul behave similarly?
Honestly quite impressed you stood for all those tests without gloves. For science!
Hi Ben, your videos are great, I really appreciate them for scientific explanations made simple and understandable by all.
Amazing quality. 👍👍 Thank you Ben 😀
PS: In case you want to suffer less, the use of gloves doesn't change the quality of the evidences.😉
I'm sure no matter what is in this video there are still gonna be people talking about how obviously the Grigri is the problem and body belays are the best kind of belay.
Regardless, this is a great video and there's a lot of good info here.
Great work! For your No-Slack fall with the Vergo at 16:25, you have the device facing the opposite direction as Trango instructs (the handle should be pointing at you, not away from you when attached to the carabiner, before you twist the device into a normal belay position. See the owner's manual). I don't believe it would fail this scenario if set up properly.
The Giga Jul slowly slipping is something I experienced myself (not while climbing, but while testing), though it depends on the rope and the carabiner. It's not really a safety issue in sport climbing IMO because it still slows the rope to a speed where hitting the ground isn't dangerous. However, if you thought you could rappel without a third hand, you can't do that with many ropes because instead of stopping you it will keep slowly sliding down if you let go of the rope.
The weight of the rope while rappelling is sufficient to stop you completely for most of the rappel while in assisted breaking mode with the ropes I've used. I rappel without a friction hitch while using the giga in this mode. I still tie a cat knot when going hands free for something. A double rope rappel has so much rope weight below the device that I just rappel in manual mode with a friction hitch backup; in assist mode it's a miserable, slow, annoying experience until you are 2/3 of the way down the rappel line for very long rappels.
@@benvizena5951 I rappelled 12 m in assist mode (with a rope where it does fully lock). With an extra carabier as a lever, it's super smooth.
I feel like the revo is so misunderstood, the assisted breaking is not ever supposed to engage except for those really catastrophic situations. Generally, it provides zero assistance and it's big selling point is it being an extremely smooth tube style belay
Exactly, I haven't used it extensively but you basically belay with it like a regular ATC-style device and the full lock-up is there in case you mess up or get injured.
@@Govanification I've never used one. So if your break hand is held down the cam never spins up to 4m/s before locking? It's an instant lock?
@@Yildun28 No if you hold onto the brake strand, the device brakes on the friction teeth like a regular ATC and thus the rotating cam doesn't spin fast or engage at all.
I used the revo for a bit. I wish it were easier to engage the lock when someone was hanging. And I also accidentally engaged the lock when quickly pulling in slack which caused some headaches. With more experience that would probably go away or I could recover from it smoothly. Kind of hoping they can figure out a 2.0 with some improvements because I did love how smoothly it fed out slack
@@belavandervoort I'd never thought about either of those situations! the first seems super annoying, that's my favorite thing about using a grigri! The second seems like it could be dangerous?
These videos are worth so much for me, as a beginner climber. Thanks a lot for putting in the effort!
Great technical content.... Out standing!! Congrats Ben 👏👏👏
Somebody had to run this in depth study.... and you've been the one!! 🙌🙌
Thank for the video and all the testing, I use the GigaJul always taking as much care as possible but after watching this I'll surely be more concentrated even when belaying, I would love to see the alpine up tested
Great video! Considering the differences between Jul and Giga Jul, it would have been interesting to also see the results for Mega Jul.
hi, fellow MegaJul owner here. I've tried "hand adove the device" experiment today, and was not able to replicate jul2 success with it :( when my break strand is perfectly parallel to the load strand it just sits there, providing no friction (like BD pilot in the video) and not being pulled down towards the carabiner. It locks if the break strand is leaning forward even a tiny bit though.
My opinion is that it depends on where the center of gravity of the tube is - if the tail (lever) is heavy the device tends to tilt forward and is engaged. Jul2 seams to have bulkier handle, and there's less metal on the other side, so my guess it tends to rotate itself forward more than megaJul
Thx for all this tests! After watching this, I´m still a big fan of "Jul2", because it manages all the situations quite well while in addition have good resistance against dirt etc. and performs well with extremly worn ropes, because the mechanik is very simple.
I did some tests like this over water with myself (belay myself in toprope and take a fall with no hands on the device) and ~90 % it stops me completely. The rest of the cases (diameter of rope too small, rope wet or frozen or just too new) I hit the water, but the speed was quite low, so I wouldnt expect injuries if the water is "true" ground.
Even Grigri and Clickup failed in my tests, because if you belay yourself with no hand on brake side, the ropes are pointing up parallel like in your tests.
And that's why we wear gloves for belaying.
Thx for the high quality of your vids, the scientific aimed focus is so amazing, u're the GOAT !
But still, how brave you are to drive these experiences bare handed.
Hope bruises weren't to itchy, take care of you and keep shining in the YT climbing game as in our hearts.
Best regards from south of France.
Haha I needed to see if it's bad :D and got some unexpected results, even tho my testing was progressive so you can control the danger.
Bought the Jul2 because this video. Seems the best in terms of value and features/safety AND ease of use. I LOVE it, have had it for a few weeks now, gone belaying like 4 times with it now, it's very intuitive imo.
I really like my Mammut Smart 2.0, I will consider adding the Smarter.
Thanks for your work, I love all your videos !
I would say: don't get it. It really interferes with taking and giving rope. It's like riding a bike with training wheels on. Just leave your break hand where it belongs. Smart is amazing and Smarter is not really needed for belayers with some experience.
@@Nerazzurri87I don't find that it interferes much. Smart2+ is my favorite device, just so simple and with the Mammut trunk, it's easy to regulate the friction level. And while correct usage and safety discipline is always the most important thing, I always like redundancy.
>So, which device would I prefer you to belay me?
> The one you are most proficient in.
Thanks for including this statement.
Well thought out, and well presented ! Thanks Ben ! 😊
This video was so well done. Great work. This information is so important to know!
The Giga-jul has two different modes: with and without brake assistance. May I ask which setting was tested here?
I have a quick question, in which mode is the GigaJul setup? I saw the yellow lever up... I don't usually use it as usual. Thanks so much for doing this video and also without globes, you're really brave 😆
In "Break-Assist" mode. The slider is on the side with the grooves. The carabiner can jam the rope in the gap of the device.
Yes I used in Assisted mode, I don't see the reason for other mode at all...
@@HardIsEasy The tube mode ("manual" mode) can arguably still be useful. For instance on ifsc competitions the belayers may only use manual devices.
The manual mode on the Gigajul can also be used for rappelling and it enables the guide mode functionality for belaying from above.
I have nothing to add to this discussion other than thank you for fantastic content. And also for the algorithm to increase your visibility. Years ago you explained how youtubes monetization alone could not enable you to create more content (if I remember correctly it was 1$ ranging from a 1k to 10k views). This video series is so good for just general safety awareness. It may actually save lives. And so, if youtube thinks they can make money off your videos, they plug them really hard on peoples recommended videos. I heard commenting helps for that. So here's my contribution to making the world a better place. Right from my couch :-)
Great video! It's very useful to know the limits and capabilities of the different belay devices. You showed that the gri-gri can be problematic if the belayer pinches the mechanism which could prevent it from locking. This is belaying right handed. I'd be curious if you've tested the similar thing if belaying left handed - but there, the common usage is to pinch the axis of the release level which does not hold the mechanism down. It seems that this method is actually better in this case since it should still quickly lock.
Hello, Great video! i started climbing in the 80's when a 'figure eight' was THE belay/rappel device that everyone used. The complexity of more modern devices is shocking to me. Every climber MUST also know how a Munter hitch works. Occam's razor is often correct.
For reference I use the Mammut smart alpine (the double rope version of the smart 2.0) with a 9.8mm rope all the time. I treat it like a normal ATC, as you should with all devices. I use it for a few reasons over the normal ATC (which I still use for some things). The main reason is that you can hang around on the rope without having to yank on it constantly. Just having your arm below the device is enough to keep it locked. The other is that the alpine can be used in guide mode.
The diameter and stiffness of the rope matters a fair bit for the locking. Smooth, rigid, new, skinny ropes will run right through it without the brake hand involved. I think that's a minor flaw, but I consider it safer overall compared to the grigri. That might seem silly, but I don't mean on a technical level since the grigri definitely locks better. Instead, because people can't assume it will lock, so they have to treat it like a normal ATC. Grigris are dangerous because people are dumb, not because of any bad design.
The other problem I have with the grigri is not being able to rappel with it. If you do, for any substantial distance or speed, then it can heat up enough to cut through the sheath of the rope. I haven't had it get that extreme, but I did get it hot enough on only a 10-15m rappel that it melted the frayed fibers of the sheath. That just makes me uneasy.
I also never ever ever raise my arm to less than about 70 deg from the climbing end of the rope. Doing so is a really dumb idea as you highlighted. Even just intuitively it makes sense if you try both methods. I wish people wouldn't do that.. It's terrifying to see and so easily avoided.
This is not a casual sport. You have to know what is going on, plan, and understand how things work. If not you risk serious injury and worse, that injury is usually to others, not the irresponsible person who didn't belay correctly.
Great video. Hope this creates more consciousness and proper use of devices.
I personally like the Mad Rock Lifeguard. It's spring is slightly harder than the Grigri making rope giving exactly the same as a tubular device. So there's no new method to learn and no mechanismi overriding.
Thanks again.
11
Thanks for all the hard work and info on this! Very interesting to see the different results. You also hit the nail on the head by your recommendation of “whichever you are most comfortable with.” Throwing someone on a brand new belay device and expecting them to be proficient with it is not good, but basic belaying common sense is going to be the best protection you can get. I personally like Grigri for top rope belaying and BD Pilot for lead belaying due to the simplicity and how experienced I am with it, but there will be tons of preferences based on experience. Keep up the great work!
Super cool Video. I use the Fish from austrialpin. Would be really interesting if you could include this one too
I kind of wish you had added the ATC to your rankings when you were testing all the devices together - a friend of mine saw your previous video of the grigri fall and concluded that she felt safer using her ATC than a grigri because of it! So I worry that this kind of video, pushing all the assisted devices to failure, might be better with a little disclaimer that the ATC would fail all these tests! Anyways now I'm curious about if there's any way to make an ATC fail in guide mode. Also, I hope you get some belay gloves for whatever tests you do next, that was painful to watch - but thank you for the sacrifice for this amzing demo!
Some ATCs will fail in guide mode with very skinny ropes coz the two strands will get pulled past each other.
Yes it should be on the same chart with 0 for all tests
The ATC is like all the other devices. One has to use it properly.
@@FlatOutFE No, I agree, I have one and use mine regularly (my gym ropes are thick and fuzzy enough that giving slack with a grigri is a struggle, and for multipitch stuff), and I like it. But even with perfect technique, an assisted device is arguably a lot safer for sport climbing outdoors where a rock could fall on your head and where the weight penalty and the capacity for using 2 ropes don't matter. And I certainly wouldn't consider it safer than an assisted device.
@@Blue-pb7kz , two ropes are safer than one. Helmets designed for side impacts are safer than those just designed for top impacts. Two carabiners are safer than one. Locking carabiners are safer than non-locking carabiners. In the end we all make compromises. The unfortunate thing is that most people now consider ATC devices as unsafe, yet they have served climbers well for 50 years.
Great video! Thank you for explaining the mechanics of those devices so well. However, you forgot to mention that in the scenario you described in Experiment #3, the click-up would be locked. You would need to manually unlock it, shifting your focus back to the belay device, in order to replicate the circumstances you tested it under. Thanks again, and I'm excited for more:)
Yea I tested all devices in the unlocked state, which can happen in normal belay scenario, but ofc if you lock ClickUP it stays locked, which you could consider slightly safer indeed
can confirm. it is designed not to lock in the tested situation, because that's how you give slack
@@HardIsEasy once locked it mostly stays locked, yes. actually it's pretty common to have to try to "de-clip" (unlock) it by unloading it and moving it around, because it happens whenever you give slack too quickly and lock it accidentally. But its quite hard to do even on purpose, so you end up having to grab the device (with the left hand) and pull it up to reset it
Firstly, I really like all your videos and appreciate the detail of the work you do.
I’d like to comment on the experiment 3, no slack portion of this video as it relates to the Click-up & Click-up+.
This experiment is based on the idea that an actively engaged belay device, the example is the GriGri, will disengage itself if the climber unweights the rope. This then leads to your example experiment and the results you explain.
However in the Click-up case you, as the belayer, actively disengaged the Click-up+ device, this is seen at 17:46 .
If a click-up has engaged following a fall, the climber can jump about and unweight the rope and the device will stay engaged… however if the belayer deliberately disengages the locked device, pushing it forward and up, as you do in the video, then all bets are off!
Obviously, whatever our choice of belay device, let’s all hold the dead end of the rope because that’s how we keep our friends alive!
Once again, thanks for the Hard is Easy work!
An other really great video which reminds us all in climbing in keeping an eye on the breaking hand and correct usage of the preferred belaying device. Great job!
With the GigaJul, it's very important that not only the rope diameter is correct, but also the carabiner. If its too wide - like the one that i saw you using - you get slippage and poorer performance.
It's definitely an issue but one that can be fixed very easily. Funny enough, I've had the best luck using my BD Gridlock. I had similar reaults using my Edelrid Bulletproof.
Similarly problematic is using a carabiner that is too small. It requires a lot more force to release.
Edit: removed a comment about not seeing people talk about carabiner size when i read a comment by you talking about that.
This goes out to all the lightly taker! Amazingly serious content. You are great! Thanks!
"So, assisted tubers are very sensitive to this angle." Yup, gotta make sure those potatoes always have their walkers around so they don't bend over too much.
Very interesting !! I really like your videos. One parameter that would be also good to add is how easy it is to give slack with those devices. Because it can also be dangerous to not be able to give slack when your climber needs to clip very quickly. I switch from the GriGri to the BD Pilot because of this and I feel way more comfortable with it. The BD Pilot is so simple to use that you can not do some mistake (ok, except if you dont hold the breaking rope). But with the GriGri, there are dozens of mistakes you can do to make it go wrong... 😁
You don't even have to overrule Grigri's locking mechanism to give slack. In most instances, it can be done by very gradually pulling rope through the divise. This requires some practice to develop the right sensitivity, but it's not particularly difficult. Moreover, by walking a step to the wall, this can made even easier (i.e. to give some initial slack, because if you try this method too quickly you are likely to lock the device anyway). This has worked fine for me
You can pull out slack as fast as you like as long as you understand what is making the cam engage. His previous video makes it clear how and when the Grigri's cam will engage; if there is no force on the break side of the rope, the cam will never engage. Even the meter or so of rope hanging down from the Grigri to the ground will generally have enough mass to allow it's gravity to generate the required force to cause the cam engage. (I am not suggesting you let go of the break side of the rope, but just pointing out that applying even very small amounts of force to the break side of the rope will cause the cam to engage in the event that there is a force on the climber's side of the rope).
As long as the cam is not already engaged, you can pay out slack quickly while never having to press on the cam to stop it from blocking. The key is make the break side of the rope "weightless" - ensure there are no significant forces acting on it. Just slide your break hand down the break side of the rope the distance equal to the amount of slack you want to pay out. Then hold your hand up enough so that the rope's weight is mostly resting in your hand - there is no weight pulling on the Grigri. Then with your other hand you can pull that slack through the Grigri, as fast as you'd like. You never need to let go of the break side of the rope, ensuring that there is always enough force on the break side of the rope to cause the cam to engage should the climber fall while you are using this method.
This method, combined with taking steps away from and toward the wall to take and give slack (as you have suggested), is more than enough to belay a climber without needing to press on the cam.
Should the cam engage while the climber is trying to clip, then you will need to press on the cam to disengage it (using Petzel's recommended method). If you need to pay out more slack after disengaging the cam, you can return to the method I have suggested above.
Use chain mail gloves. 😂 Thank you for this video. The proper technique for belaying is proven to work, meaning never let go of the break end of the rope and keep the rope speed under control at all times. However, I still make a point about the belay technique being the most important. I'd point out to your belay master class series, because it is really good. Another lazy belay technique is moving away from the wall to take out slack, and this irks me to no end.
Agreed on the step away method, I always imagine trad just popping out every time I see it.
With perfect technic all of them worked, but the idea is how resilient the gear is against mistakes. We shouldn’t but we all are doing them. It’s the same as in cars. We should just be careful because people tend to rely on this resilience and behave less cautiously. Had read some study where a group trained with grgri’s had made more brake hand mistakes then one old-school tubers.
as for stepping away, it's crucial in cases you need to take out slack quickly, but yes abused for the cases where you want to see your climber better, I have videos coming on these things hopefully soon.
@@HardIsEasy yes. Like in slab situations, but I've seen 5-7m away from the wall, it goes to show how lazy a belayer can be, besides the slamming and swinging hard into the wall. Good habits keeps the mind sharp.
If you're using Mammut Smart 2.0 without the "Smarter" add-on, then giving slack the classical way, without necessarily opening the device, works pretty smoothly.
Hi Ben,
Thanks a lot for yet another enlightening video from you!
However, I have 1 question: Please could you confirm in which mode you tested the GIGA JUL in?
For all who don't know the device yet: The GIGA JUL has 2 modes: a "classical tuber" mode and an "brake assisted tuber" mode. You can choose between these modes by putting a "slider" into the corresponding position.
Having these two modes in one device is a great thing for multi-pitch climbing: You can use the break assisted mode for lead belaying (at all pitches) and the standard tuber mode for rappeling and for belaying from an anchor point in guide mode.
@ Ben: If you had the GIGA JUL in standard tuber mode during the tests, the results were in no way surprising, were they? In this case, it would be great if you could repeat the tests in the brake assisted mode and let us know the results in a follow-up video!
Letting the device compete against the other brake assisted devices while in standard tube mode simply would not make sense to me and does not help me making a final judgement.
Thanks in advance for your response. I look forward to it!
Best wishes,
Frieder
Interesting results with the pilot. I picked one up on sale some years ago and have been using it over my grigri2 since then and much prefer it. Having the rope up or thumb resting under the release catch did feel more dangerous so I made sure to actively avoid those positions unless necessary; by now it's second nature.
It's great to see you back!
It is very important for a belayer to not take out the slack from a fall.
The rope stretch can only help if there is enough length of it to stretch.
A short rope is a dangerous rope when falling, and one should not rely on the rope being long in the upwards strand for if the anchor becomes a pinch point, the only rope that matters will be between the rappeler and the anchor.
There is no reason to ever have a no slack fall as described with a clickup. Just ensure the device is in the locked position, perhaps by manually locking the clickup, while holding the climber during a rest and unlock the device after the climber starts climbing again. Unlike the grigri the clickup does not unlock if the climber unweights the rope. Even nicer for top rope situation the belayer can easily pull in slack while the device is locked.
I use the Edelrid Mega Jul and love it. High on your safety rankings and very versatile for my outdoor use.
I appreciate your scientific curiosity! Good job! I am a physicist and I learn from your content.
Hi, if the climber is lock with the clickup + or not , the carabiner is at the front and if the climber just go up and release the rope, the clickup stay in lock position. So if the climber fall at this moment, he will be lock by clickup. Only a human could use the movement for unlock the click up so it will be a human error to not hold the brake side of the rope.
You do a great job, it's a pleasure to see your video. Take your time to have quality.
To be honest, most time one is giving slack, you do not have to overwrite the locking mechanism (at least with GriGri and Jul, the two devices I have experience with). If you are “pushing in” the rope from the brake side and simultaneously pulling it out on the climber side, it works perfectly fine. Only giving slack _fast_ requires overwriting the locking mechanism. But you don't need to do this often if you are belaying with foresight (and some slack in the system at most times anyway). That greatly reduces the risk I suppose.
Edit: Nevermind, I wrote this comment ten seconds before you started talking about this. 😂
Amazing video, I really like the way you analyzed how each of these devices can fail.
I love your videos and yanns videos specifically on how things can fail. I think knowing this, can help us avoid dangerous situations.
It’s the lack of locking that makes the click-up the best. It feeds the nicest can be used to slam
Someone if needed but otherwise can give a really nice soft catch.
When i worked at a climbing gym, all our top rope routes were equipped with GriGri, and gym membets were required to take a test demonstrating proficiency with the device
Thank you for the video. Would suggest you to do testing on lowering climber too. It is a second cause climber get injured from bad belayer too. Well done mate. 👍
Yeaa I was not sure how to measure lovering risks tho... but in the future I'll somehow measure the comfort when I do follow up vid on this
@@HardIsEasy maybe you can test it with two ropes and 2nd belayer who will have more slack?
@@aroimicaraffu but what I'm testing? :) If you don't hold the brake hand and force the device to lower ofc the climber will go to the ground.
The only thing I can test is perceived control of lowering
I think that part is super rope dependant, though. Switching from a worn fuzzy gym rope to a new thin outside rope, the difference when lowering on a grigri is night and day it's practically a different technique! With the gym rope I have the lever all the way open and control the speed with my hand on the rope, and it's still slow, with my outside rope there's a lot more effort in finding the right spot etc.
I would have loved to see you wearing your leather gloves from the burn test here... I was really anxious about those impacts!
Amazing video. Very clear, informative and helpful 🎉
Thank you so much for the video! Really enjoying it 😊
every time your hand goes in the device i laugh, very funny episode! :-)
Hi Ben, might be good to add the ATC to the testresults. There will be beginners who interpret the video incorrectly and after watching so many potential flaws on auto tubers, will go on buying an ATC.
I actually originally had more talking about each device including non-assisted tubes, but cut that out of this video and gonna ad that to the follow up in the future.
I hope that it's obvious that ATC is as risky as it gets and if beginners don't understand that their teacher did a bad job :)
This hurt to watch😢😮. Thanks for the info.
Thank you for your effort! Helps a new climber understanding many things!
I don’t climb but I’m fascinated by the science behind how the gear works and fails.
Thank you for all the testing, it was very interesting. I personally use the clickup and you are right it is almost impossible to take slack with the hand being back. My solution for this is running back. But this is no all time solution because it can pull me back to the wall when the climber is heavy.
this is making me rethink the smarter attachment for my smart lol. I never paid it any attention because I was comfortable with the base smart and didn't think the little plastic clip would change much. Guess I'll have to start trying it out
I'll do more testing on that, but my initial feeling is that for thicker ropes it doesn't matter and might even make the rope slide worse, but with anything under 9.5 Smarter might be a good idea... again I would have todo more testing.
I think the slipping in the no slack fall with the Vergo was a user error, the instructions say you need to clip the device to your belay loop with the brake strand coming out towards you, not facing away from you. There is even a little arrow saying left, that needs to face to the left. The Vergos predecessor, the Cinch, had the same issue, they changed the instructions to this way at some point because of some incidents.
Did you use the giga jul in the ( manuell) tube or autotube mode?
I‘m curious, because i dont undersand, why the jul 2 perfomed so much better than the giga😅
Thanks for another great video. Quality is more important to me than quantity. We are beginner climbers with my 14 year old son and we are very happy with the Singing Rock RAMA belay, which is basically a copy of the Mammut Smart. It has already happened to me that my son messed up and let go of the rope when I fell. I'm 30 kg heavier and that's not good. I bought an Edelrid OHM three days ago and hopefully it will make our rock climbing more enjoyable.
Yea OHM is great for such cases, be aware that the angle of the rope entering the ohm from the belayer effects how grabby the OHM is.
The closer your belayer to the wall the softer the catch will be, the further the harder
Pretty sad to see how my favourite device (gigajul) performs so poorly. Definitely still a safe device if used diligently, and its versatility for multi pitches and climbing doubles means I'll probably still use it, but I'd really like to see a more robust two channel device on the market.
In my experience, it does feel like an assisted brake device, and not an auto-locking device.
I'm about 4 years deep into using the Gigajul as my primary device for rappelling and sometimes multipitch belaying, and I second your observations that it assists but is not auto-locking. The friction and performance are also very dependent on the rope diameter/slickness and the carabiner shape/material. Part of the appeal of the gigajul is keeping aluminum oxide dust from turning my ropes black, so I use a bulletproof HMS with it, but unfortunately that slightly triangular shape top bar and the slippery stainless steel insert don't lock up the rope as well as a skinny I-beam aluminum carabiner (which wear down quite quickly). I belay with the giga in brake-assist mode on multipitch sometimes, but I treat it as thought I'm belaying in regular ATC mode.
Yea there is space in the market for a better double rope assisted belay devices. I haven't tested all what exists tho yet... but Gigajul i treat with caution.
@@HardIsEasy I had a bit of a look and there is also a Alpine Up version of the click up. It'd probably worth testing as well.
Hi, very interesting video. I can see all the hard work put into it. Thank you!
Hello, thank you for the great video :) I am a physicist myself and really appreciate your videos explaining things with physics behind it.
Just one question: In the conclusion you say the ClickUp requires, in case of taking slack, the hand to go back to the device. But with which device will you not need to do that?^^
Edelrid Giga Jul is the only device from this list that is alpine device and it's working fine with two thin ropes/single rope with 10mm~ diameter
I have the vergo and am a huge proponent of it. Super ergonomic and very versatile. Only gripe is that the catch is a bit harder than the gri gri but other than that it's better in every way.
14:08 When giving out rope with a Jul2, I prefer to just knock the bottom of the device with the brake hand instead of ‘wrapping my thumb around the device’. This mostly works to unblock it…
(I absolutely agree that there is still a slightly higher risk with using a Jul2 regarding the brake hand. The most important thing is to be aware of it.)
I grab the rope with my fingers and gently push upward with my thumb. You don't really need to wrap your thumb around it.
The situation of the device not completely blocking I had in some combination of gear (rope, carabiner) and fall with the mammut smart 1 and the bd pilot. Think after a catch its not that big of a problem, because it gives the belayer time (several seconds) to react and catch the rope. At all these times minimal force on the breaking side rope was enough to stop the decent completely.
Hi Ben, I decided to watch this again as I recently lost my grigri and got a clickup as a replacement. I think there is a fundamental flaw in your experiment #3. Your hypothesis, or, your scenario, is that the climber asked for a block or took a fall, the belayer removed hands for an explanation and meanwhile the climber starts climbing and takes a fall. If that is your scenario than you need to repeat the tests with the device in locked mode, not unlocked. The big thing is that the clickup does NOT unlock itself like the grigri does. The clickup requires intention to unlock. Now, if you start in unlocke mode, contrary to you, I am not surprised by what happen at all, that was pretty much expected.
You just ruined the reputation of a very nice device :(
Oh interesting I have the mammut smarter with the smarter plus add on and never took it off. Not that I would ever belay like this but it’s nice to know it did pretty well in these tests. I was a beginner climber with not a big budget when I bought it and my gym requires you bring an assisted device or rent theirs.
I hope you can get your hands on the Petzl Neox soon! So far it seems like a really promising device, and i would be excited to learn about the physics behind it, which i cant fully grasp yet.
Also, i'd love to see these same tests done with the AustriAlpin Fish, which is the Belay device i personally use, to see how it compares to the smart and Jul.
Regarding the Giga Jul, as it is kind of the "alpine" version of the Jul2, it would be interesting to see how it react with double ropes.
I have it at home and it seems like despite using a pair of skinny ropes, it engage faster. My educated gues is that with one rope it kind of get rotated horizontally, while with two ropes the whole device get pulled to the carabiners.
there's a small mistake on "no slack fall" test with click up.
in the example: belayer take, then let go of break strand, then climber climb a bit and fall.
your test started with click up disengaged, but if belayer take climber then click up will engage until belayer disengage it on purpose, then with it engaged, if belayer let go, it shouldn't slip at all.
if belayer let go of the rope with device disengaged then your test is spot on and expected, device won't ever catch and this is user error on operating the device.
I should say that I particularly don't like the click up, but I'm a user and huge fan of the alpine up, similar locking mechanism but easier to handle and does all I need.
and once again thanks for putting out good content with amazing quality and foster good discussions :)
Hey thanks, I tested all devices in disengaged positions. In case you loose control of the brake side and climber takes a fall and there is no slack.
But sure if Click UP is locked already it is def safer option.
My father is old timer. He always says you should keep hands down towards the gravity. When belaying.. like even with figure 8
Hi, I don't know if somebody noticed this, and you gave yet an answer about, so sorry if you did😅. Trango give different rules for the position of the belayer in the harness. Trango vergo should be with the "hand rope side" going to the belayer and not outside. This position activate the vergo faster than the other position. In your position, for few time, the rope slide inside cause the Vergo haven't significant bands inside. But, in the other side, the force created for the falling take immediately the belay advice up and the rope cannot slide inside. Can you give me some informations about that? Many thanks
The entertainment value went up so much given you decided to test these all yourself without a glove 😂
Can’t wait to see the next video 😍
¡Gracias!
De nada!
As a new climber, I bought the Mammut Smart 2.0+Smarter (in addition to a ATC) because the instructor didn't want us to become "GriGri-whores" (relying fully on a device) before we mastered the proper techniques. I am so grateful for that, but I obviously didn't want other climbers to risk their lives in order for me to practice my belaying skills...I needed something I could rely on in case I had a black-out. I chose the Smart 2.0+Smarter after a ridiculous amount of research (=youtube and testimonials) 😂
The Smart 2.0+Smarter have so far (+- 2 yrs) been super reliable. I have chosen to drop the Smarter when using thicker ropes, and often use the Smarter only with ropes =
Yea that's what I'm finding as well that smarter might be more useful with ropes under 9.5, but I would have to test it a bit more.
I have a singing rock Rama, very similar to mammut one'. That's infortunate that you didn"t have a possibility to test all various ones...
Would the tests be different if you just tied a catch knot on the brake strand instead of using your own hand as a sacrifice?
I'm surprised by the difference in the Jul2 and the GigaJul. I use the Jul2 + HMS bulletproof Triple FG carabiner in the gym and the GigaJul + HMS bulletproof screw FG outdoors, so basically the same carabiner, just different locking mechanisms. I've noticed some difference in holding power, but I didn't expect it to be that drastically different for this specific scenario. What I have noticed is that the GigaJul tends to slip more often when it's supposed to be "locked off." Like if my climber falls or I need to take, once the climber is fully weighing the system, sometimes the GigaJul doesn't fully lock and if I relax my grip, the rope will start slipping through. I know this type of device is reliant on the carabiner shape/profile, but you'd imagine that Edelrid's carabiners, especially their belay specific carabiners (as these have the belay loop keeper gate) would be optimized to work with their own belay devices.
I wonder if its possible to design a revo-like mechanism to automatically lock based on acceleration of the rope, so you can tell the climber is falling before reaching high speed
I was taught to use the pinky on my right hand from under the grigri to feed rope with the left. Have you ever tried this technique?
Another quality video. Awesome
If possible I’d love to se Beal birdy as one of the device’s, understand if not since it is almost identical to grigri but it’s nice representation.
Test #3 isn't relevant for the click-up, at least not for the situation described in the video, because unlike the grigri it doesn't disengage as soon as the tension is released; it stays "clicked"
Also it's less likely to do something weird with your brake hand in the first place with the clickup, because holding the brake strand is the only thing your brake hand ever does, 100% of the time throughout the whole belay. You just hold the rope, the entire time, and simply and only do that, hour after hour after hour. There are no cam- or device-holding shenanigans that mess with your muscle memory
Hi Ben 🙋♂️ I have one question for you. Do you think thet the gri gri + will perform better ? 🤔 by the way perfect video 👌🏻 keep it up 💪🏻
It's better as a top rope device for beginners as it has anti panic lovering and top rope mode, but for sport climbing I prefer non plus version.
I like how he kept getting hurt but kept doing it anyway lol
Great work! Just don’t forget belay gloves next time to go easier on your hands 😅