When Assistance Fails!? The Physics And Experiments of Belay Devices
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- Physics and Experiments demonstrating Assisted Belay Devices fail situations.
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Physics of GriGri Episode:
• The Physics of GriGri ...
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00:00 Introduction
00:48 Physics
06:25 Experiment #1 Hand Above the Device
12:15 Experiment #2 Fall While giving Slack
15:24 Experiment #3 No Slack Fall
20:44 Conclusion
23:02 Ad
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A huge thank you to those who helped me to understand this topic:
Prof. Pietro Meschini
Prof. Rainer Schad
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Deep Thanks!
Ben - Спорт
We all thank your hand for its service.
I wanted to feel if it's bad :))) so you don't have to :)
And yea in some cases I got unexpected results.
😂 good one…
@@HardIsEasy We should patreon you something like a butcher's chainmail glove for these tests to protect your hand a bit...
Yeah, man will you please protect your hand? You only have one!
This guy is simply a GOD.
"I will do experiments that will potentially injure my hand. I will give ratings based on hand injury. No, I will not wear a glove."
As much as we often like to pretend that our sport is always completely safe, the risks that come from possible user errors are evident and the consequences can be fatal. It’s important for us customers to be informed about products and for us climbers to know how to protect ourselves and the ones we love from unnecessary danger.
Thank you Ben! Keep it up!
Hey thank you so much!
I practice sport climbing, caving and canyoning for 25 years. Now with your videos I don't have to explain to all these people I meet (usually in sport climbing) that believe that their belaying devices can do the job in any case, that they have to follow manufacturers' instructions closely. I can just say: be careful; watch this guy's videos, respect human life. Congratulations for this thorough presentation.
Somoene recently told me that they liked knowing that they could take their hand off the rope "in an emercency" with their pilot. I love my pilot but assisted braking devices give too many people a false sense of security.
A note: As I already mentioned carabiner plays a big role in auto-tubers, and although only CT ClickUP / + requires specific carabiner, for the next video I'll try to reach out to manufacturers and get their recommendation on "the best" carabiner for their device. And then test everything again... :D
A note #2: In some of my tests I inserted Trango Vergo incorrectly, but it's still nice to know that it worked well, but seems like I'm slightly too dumb to understand this "intuitive" design to load it properly all the time :D Also I received multiple emails stating other issues with Trango Vergo that I'll have to investigate for the follow up video.
A note #3: Just received another email with a video demonstrating Jul2 slipping and not locking at all - and Jul2 worked in my tests so well :(
So as I already said - there is always more to every story... and I see that creating a Rating table might have been not the smartest move of mine :DD
Hello, loved this video! I use the fish. Have you heard of it? It’s comparable to the smart 2.0 I guess 🤔 and it always comes together with its own security carabiner when you buy it. So far I‘m really happy with it :)
I have a megajul sport and it fails when the wire loop (i dont know how its called )gets stuck in the top off the screwgate in the carabiner, and its works as a normal belay plate, because it dont let the megajul get clousser enough to the carbiner to press the rope
Your suffering for science is appreciated, but feel free to use gloves next time - we will not judge you!
Regarding Gigajul, I noticed quite a bit of carabiner dependence. Some are much better than others! Could you test that and maybe reply back? What seems to work well is the Edelrid HMS Strike FG.
@@testboga5991 I use the I use the Jul2 + HMS bulletproof Triple FG carabiner in the gym and the GigaJul + HMS bulletproof screw FG outdoors. so basically the same carabiner, and more or less the same as ths HMS Strike. I've noticed the GigaJul tends to slip a lot when it should be locked off. Like if I relax my grip, the rope will start slipping through.
I think that Jul2 also requires special carabiner - the steel one or Edelrid Booletproof (aluminium with steel insert), as it is not very gentle with alu ones. It can be also a safety issue.
Videos like this are important, because no device is totally dummy-proof. You've established which ones are more dummy-proof than others. Thank you!
Guys research can prevent future accidents.
New generations of climbers will be raised from videos like this while other climbers will understand why they are still here: they held the brake-side of the rope,
Thank you for your videos
I've been using either a Jul or mega jul for a few years now and have a few comments on technique.
You don't need to wrap your thumb all the way around it when paying out slack, pushing it to the side with your thumb or just using the pad (tip) of your thumb to put some pressure up on it is enough to allow slack to go through easily and will not put up enough resistance to hold the device open if the leader falls.
The narrower the beam of the belay carabiner is the harder it will catch a fall, I've been using the bulletproof HMS locker for a while now and it's been a good match. The large round cross section lockers don't get pulled u into the notch as far and it can end up with a bit of slippage, not a drop, just a bit of slippage.
It was neat to see the giga jul just slow down the weight and not fully lock up since these devices are marketed as assisted braking / friction increasing devices and not auto catching.
Thank you for your hard work Ben! For me safety is the most important thing while belaying. I always wanted to be not only a decent climber but also a good belayer, so once again, thank you! Btw. I think you should start wearing a helmet while testing. Your brain is priceless! ❤
haha well if I start dropping weights on my self I def should :D
@@HardIsEasy You almost did at 13:15 with the weight swinging up there... Bad timing and it ends on your head haha
@@HardIsEasy add some safety-shoes and a pair of gloves ;)
Surely, the point of a helmet is to be wearing it *before* dropping things on your head. But I’m not a scientist. 😉
If one has one, why not. One only wishes that they did in a time of need. Plenty of stories in this category, and hope to limit it to a handful.
Regarding your test results with the Gigajul.
In the beginning I had exactly the same results. I tried several carabiners until I found a really good fit. the most important thing was that the upper carabiner axis is as narrow as possible. currently I use a Petzl Frenio, with this the Gigajoul locks pretty quickly and reliable.
good to know thanks. I just got a gigajul and was gonna get the freino for my grigri
The natural choices of carabiner to partner the Edelrid Giga Jul would be Edelrid's Bulletproof (with the steel insert to reduce rope induced wear) and the Strike. In my experience, the former is too large, and giving rope is a pain; the latter is better in that regard, and I believe that Edelrid itself sells this pairing as a set.
Would a megajul behave similarly?
Honestly quite impressed you stood for all those tests without gloves. For science!
Absolutely awesome work on the testing, documentation and explanation! Thank you so much for all the great content you provide! Yours and a handful of other channels frequently make me go down the classic "youtube rabbit hole" and I keep learning so many things that only a very tiny amount of climbers out there actually know about.
You're definitely making the climbing world a safer place with your educational content!
Great technical content.... Out standing!! Congrats Ben 👏👏👏
Somebody had to run this in depth study.... and you've been the one!! 🙌🙌
Well thought out, and well presented ! Thanks Ben ! 😊
This video was so well done. Great work. This information is so important to know!
Hi Ben, your videos are great, I really appreciate them for scientific explanations made simple and understandable by all.
Amazing quality. 👍👍 Thank you Ben 😀
PS: In case you want to suffer less, the use of gloves doesn't change the quality of the evidences.😉
Amazing content quality. Can't wait for the next one. Feeling like the Grigri is safer generally when compared to classic tubes especially for beginners.
I'm sure no matter what is in this video there are still gonna be people talking about how obviously the Grigri is the problem and body belays are the best kind of belay.
Regardless, this is a great video and there's a lot of good info here.
Thank you so much for the video! Really enjoying it 😊
These videos are worth so much for me, as a beginner climber. Thanks a lot for putting in the effort!
Amazing video. Very clear, informative and helpful 🎉
Such a good video. Thanks for doing these tests.
An other really great video which reminds us all in climbing in keeping an eye on the breaking hand and correct usage of the preferred belaying device. Great job!
This is brilliant. Informative, entertaining, personable - the ideal combination for a teacher. I’m going to post the link into my local climbing group.
I’ve used many devices and never had a problem, but it’s great to know how it could happen. Because it only has to happen once to create a bad day. I’m going to practice belaying at home to ensure I have my technique absolutely nailed.
When we went to a safety course, we were instructed that with geometric locking devices the type of carabiner make a very big impact. Wonder how the results would be impacted by that!
Yes carabiner shape is very important, but testing all of them is impossible so my results should be taken with great caution.
@@HardIsEasy I think "great caution" might be an overestimation 😉
@@HardIsEasy This is true, thank you so much. For example I went back and looked at which carabiner you used with the old click up, still my device of choice. And I believe you used the clickup plus carabiner, do you know if it is exactly the same?
@@TheDudeFromKalispell In my experience the clickup carabiners can be a little less likely to cause the device to lock than the thick stainless steel monsters we have lying around, but I don't know about the clickup plus. I imagine the increased diameter and circular profile jams the rope in a little tighter.
Thank you for your effort! Helps a new climber understanding many things!
Thank you for doing this for our understanding
I have a BD Pilot and I've had really good experience with it. And what I like about it is the reliability and consistency. The device extremely rarely does something unexpected in my experience.
I love mine too, but I have had 2 instances where it had some issues. Both were caused by my climbing partner. One was leading in a gym and he didn’t flake the rope when he pulled it out, it was so twisted up that the rope curled through the side next to the carabiner and caused the rope to bind while giving slack. Other situation was the same thing, but outside. I need to make him flake his rope so that doesn’t happen again, and I’m sure that would happen with most of the tube style devices
Same here, using BD for 3y without any dangerous / slip situation. As said in the video - it's about experience and understanding the device, not about the device itself. Great video anyway!
I like mine, I can give and take slack really easily, but it doesn't lock up as easily or as firmly as the Smart. It's also harder to find the thumb release and sometimes I have to fumble for it. All things considered I think I prefer the smart.
It's great to see you back!
I love your videos and yanns videos specifically on how things can fail. I think knowing this, can help us avoid dangerous situations.
Amazing video, I really like the way you analyzed how each of these devices can fail.
Thanks for all the hard work and info on this! Very interesting to see the different results. You also hit the nail on the head by your recommendation of “whichever you are most comfortable with.” Throwing someone on a brand new belay device and expecting them to be proficient with it is not good, but basic belaying common sense is going to be the best protection you can get. I personally like Grigri for top rope belaying and BD Pilot for lead belaying due to the simplicity and how experienced I am with it, but there will be tons of preferences based on experience. Keep up the great work!
Nicely done, once again!
This goes out to all the lightly taker! Amazingly serious content. You are great! Thanks!
Hi, very interesting video. I can see all the hard work put into it. Thank you!
Of those devices I've tried the GriGri, Jul2, Pilot, and Smart 2.0 (without Smarter). This video pretty mostly matched my experience in that the Jul2 locked the most readily. It also had the strongest holding power after a catch. None of ~3 ropes I tried slipped at all even when I had slack ahead of my brake hand. The Smart would slip slowly with a heavy climber, and the Pilot would slip at a slow to moderate speed depending on the climber and rope.
As for other things not really covered in/outside the scope of the video: The Pilot was the smoothest of the three assisted-tube style devices in giving and taking slack, the hook for the thumb works pretty well, and it was the easiest by a significant margin for lowering the climber in a smooth and controlled manner using the recommended technique by gripping the whole device. The Smart felt the least smooth/most friction-y in giving/taking slack, and the thumb hook didn't feel very secure. Lowering with it is just okay; you use both hands to push up on the lever since you can't really grab the whole thing, and it's a little hard to control that way. The Jul2 is fairly smooth in giving/taking slack. The enclosed thumb loop takes a little practice to get used to, since after taking slack you want to be able to get your thumb back in there without looking down. However, once I got used to it, I found that easy, and it's obviously the most secure thumb position compared to the other two devices. The last drawback of the Jul2 is that it's maybe the hardest of the three to smoothly lower with, but once I figured out a technique I liked (wrapping my hand around the tube, with the back of the device between thumb and index finger, with two or three fingers from the same hand in the thumb lever, with other hand on the brake strand to help modulate), it was fine. The Jul2 ended up being my favored device of the three for its catching and holding characteristics, although I wouldn't mind the Pilot for gym use because it's so smooth.
Lastly, it's true that you are technically defeating the camming action when tilting the assisted tube style devices. However, I think the way you do that is still better than the way you defeat the GriGri's cam. With the assisted tubes, you push up with your brake hand. When a climber falls, your natural reaction is to clamp and pull down, which is exactly what you want to do with those devices. With the GriGri, clamping with your brake hand can be catastrophic if you're not holding the device and rope correctly.
Anyway, I think these videos are absolutely excellent, and should be required viewing for anyone who's just taken their initial lead belay classes.
I appreciate your scientific curiosity! Good job! I am a physicist and I learn from your content.
Great video! Finally a review of Hard=Easy about de GigaJul. I’m using that device, with a special Edelrid carabiner though, which eliminates the slipping rope problem (depending on the rope tickness).
As always amazing content !
If I may, I would like to correct you on the use of the Edelrid JUL 2 please ! I used the GriGri and then the Edelrid Eddy for 20 years, and 6 months ago I tried the JUL 2 for sport climbing, and it is amazing when you know how to use it best !
To give slack quickly you don't have to override its autolocking system as you showed in your video ! You just have to slide your right hand holding the "safe rope side" far behind you to get about 1 meter of rope from your right hand to the JUL 2, and then bring quickly your right hand close / below the JUL 2... when you are about half way of this move / AFTER starting the move with you right hand, now you can give slack with your left hand to the climber very quickly without locking the rope in the autolocking mechanism !! Your right hand just need to move before your left hand giving the slack !! I use a 10,5 mm rope and it never locks with this method !
If you did not do the method correctly and you move BOTH HANDS IN THE SAME TIME to give the slack, then yes, the rope will lock automatically in the mechanism ! However if this happens, to unlock it very quickly and very safely, I do not recommand to use your right hand holding the "safe rope" and bring your right thumb into the dedicated loop to unlock the system holding the "safe rope side" with only 4 fingers !
Instead, I use my left hand (climber's side) and hold the whole JUL2 between the side of my index and my thumb and quickly pull it up few centimeters to unlock the mechanism, and in the same movement upwards, I "slide above" and grab the rope and give the slack very quickly... as long as I have already brought my right hand with the 1 meter slack of rope close to the JUL 2 (just below the JUL 2!!
It's very easy, very quick, very efficient and very safe this way.
Since I understood this method, I through away the GriGri and the Eddy, as there is no point of using another device. The JUL2 is much simpler (no cam, no moving part, no button), very efficient, very solid and durable (all steel construction).
Amazingly safe and simple product, I really recommand you try it using the method I explain above.
Why do I love watching these? Amazing content. Your videos have helped me become a safer climber for sure! Thank you.
Thank you so much for the great Content ❤️
Many thanks for your hard work
Thank you, as always great content.
I have nothing to add to this discussion other than thank you for fantastic content. And also for the algorithm to increase your visibility. Years ago you explained how youtubes monetization alone could not enable you to create more content (if I remember correctly it was 1$ ranging from a 1k to 10k views). This video series is so good for just general safety awareness. It may actually save lives. And so, if youtube thinks they can make money off your videos, they plug them really hard on peoples recommended videos. I heard commenting helps for that. So here's my contribution to making the world a better place. Right from my couch :-)
you are so underated , nice work , nice video , thanks 🙏
big thumbs up for the work
Love it, amazing info
Great work! For your No-Slack fall with the Vergo at 16:25, you have the device facing the opposite direction as Trango instructs (the handle should be pointing at you, not away from you when attached to the carabiner, before you twist the device into a normal belay position. See the owner's manual). I don't believe it would fail this scenario if set up properly.
Bought the Jul2 because this video. Seems the best in terms of value and features/safety AND ease of use. I LOVE it, have had it for a few weeks now, gone belaying like 4 times with it now, it's very intuitive imo.
Thank for the video and all the testing, I use the GigaJul always taking as much care as possible but after watching this I'll surely be more concentrated even when belaying, I would love to see the alpine up tested
Thank you for making this video
Awesome video. Thankyou!
Another quality video. Awesome
Thx for all this tests! After watching this, I´m still a big fan of "Jul2", because it manages all the situations quite well while in addition have good resistance against dirt etc. and performs well with extremly worn ropes, because the mechanik is very simple.
I did some tests like this over water with myself (belay myself in toprope and take a fall with no hands on the device) and ~90 % it stops me completely. The rest of the cases (diameter of rope too small, rope wet or frozen or just too new) I hit the water, but the speed was quite low, so I wouldnt expect injuries if the water is "true" ground.
Even Grigri and Clickup failed in my tests, because if you belay yourself with no hand on brake side, the ropes are pointing up parallel like in your tests.
Can’t wait to see the next video 😍
Thank you for your work
I feel like the revo is so misunderstood, the assisted breaking is not ever supposed to engage except for those really catastrophic situations. Generally, it provides zero assistance and it's big selling point is it being an extremely smooth tube style belay
Exactly, I haven't used it extensively but you basically belay with it like a regular ATC-style device and the full lock-up is there in case you mess up or get injured.
@@Govanification I've never used one. So if your break hand is held down the cam never spins up to 4m/s before locking? It's an instant lock?
@@Yildun28 No if you hold onto the brake strand, the device brakes on the friction teeth like a regular ATC and thus the rotating cam doesn't spin fast or engage at all.
I used the revo for a bit. I wish it were easier to engage the lock when someone was hanging. And I also accidentally engaged the lock when quickly pulling in slack which caused some headaches. With more experience that would probably go away or I could recover from it smoothly. Kind of hoping they can figure out a 2.0 with some improvements because I did love how smoothly it fed out slack
@@belavandervoort1638 I'd never thought about either of those situations! the first seems super annoying, that's my favorite thing about using a grigri! The second seems like it could be dangerous?
Thanks for the great vids, keep it up
The Giga Jul slowly slipping is something I experienced myself (not while climbing, but while testing), though it depends on the rope and the carabiner. It's not really a safety issue in sport climbing IMO because it still slows the rope to a speed where hitting the ground isn't dangerous. However, if you thought you could rappel without a third hand, you can't do that with many ropes because instead of stopping you it will keep slowly sliding down if you let go of the rope.
The weight of the rope while rappelling is sufficient to stop you completely for most of the rappel while in assisted breaking mode with the ropes I've used. I rappel without a friction hitch while using the giga in this mode. I still tie a cat knot when going hands free for something. A double rope rappel has so much rope weight below the device that I just rappel in manual mode with a friction hitch backup; in assist mode it's a miserable, slow, annoying experience until you are 2/3 of the way down the rappel line for very long rappels.
@@benvizena5951 I rappelled 12 m in assist mode (with a rope where it does fully lock). With an extra carabier as a lever, it's super smooth.
Awesome Videos!
These are great results to learn from. I believe we need to reflect on the manufacturers' design decisions as well. For example, I still feel really comfortable using the click up as it replicates the atc style of giving slack without touching the device and it performs great in experiment 2 which would be the most common situation in climbing. I am not too worried about such a grave user error in experiment 1 and 3 with myself. For experiment 3, it does give me pause, but as a belayer I would have to be completely incapacitated by a heart attack or falling rock for this to become relevant.
Wow your hand really worked hard, thank you
Really thanks for your sharing, it is very good info compare different device. Take good care
Another absolutely fantastic and informative video. The best instructional and technical climbing vids out there. Thanks Ben!
Amazing thanks
Very interesting !! I really like your videos. One parameter that would be also good to add is how easy it is to give slack with those devices. Because it can also be dangerous to not be able to give slack when your climber needs to clip very quickly. I switch from the GriGri to the BD Pilot because of this and I feel way more comfortable with it. The BD Pilot is so simple to use that you can not do some mistake (ok, except if you dont hold the breaking rope). But with the GriGri, there are dozens of mistakes you can do to make it go wrong... 😁
And that's why we wear gloves for belaying.
Thx for the high quality of your vids, the scientific aimed focus is so amazing, u're the GOAT !
But still, how brave you are to drive these experiences bare handed.
Hope bruises weren't to itchy, take care of you and keep shining in the YT climbing game as in our hearts.
Best regards from south of France.
Haha I needed to see if it's bad :D and got some unexpected results, even tho my testing was progressive so you can control the danger.
Best content online ❤
Thank you for your help
Interesting results with the pilot. I picked one up on sale some years ago and have been using it over my grigri2 since then and much prefer it. Having the rope up or thumb resting under the release catch did feel more dangerous so I made sure to actively avoid those positions unless necessary; by now it's second nature.
I really like my Mammut Smart 2.0, I will consider adding the Smarter.
Thanks for your work, I love all your videos !
I would say: don't get it. It really interferes with taking and giving rope. It's like riding a bike with training wheels on. Just leave your break hand where it belongs. Smart is amazing and Smarter is not really needed for belayers with some experience.
@@Nerazzurri87I don't find that it interferes much. Smart2+ is my favorite device, just so simple and with the Mammut trunk, it's easy to regulate the friction level. And while correct usage and safety discipline is always the most important thing, I always like redundancy.
Hello, Great video! i started climbing in the 80's when a 'figure eight' was THE belay/rappel device that everyone used. The complexity of more modern devices is shocking to me. Every climber MUST also know how a Munter hitch works. Occam's razor is often correct.
Amazing! Thanks
Great video and useful info on different camming style belay devices. I do think including the Revo and testing it as a cam style device greatly misrepresented it. It's a very smooth feeding and and extra safe tube style device. It's arguably safer than every other device in this video, but it's still not a camming device. Also, for anyone that uses a Revo, wear a glove on your break hand, he's not kidding that it hurts if your hand gets pulled into it.
Great video! Considering the differences between Jul and Giga Jul, it would have been interesting to also see the results for Mega Jul.
hi, fellow MegaJul owner here. I've tried "hand adove the device" experiment today, and was not able to replicate jul2 success with it :( when my break strand is perfectly parallel to the load strand it just sits there, providing no friction (like BD pilot in the video) and not being pulled down towards the carabiner. It locks if the break strand is leaning forward even a tiny bit though.
My opinion is that it depends on where the center of gravity of the tube is - if the tail (lever) is heavy the device tends to tilt forward and is engaged. Jul2 seams to have bulkier handle, and there's less metal on the other side, so my guess it tends to rotate itself forward more than megaJul
Good work 👌
great video once again.
Great technical explanations of any available technology for belaying systems!
I even didn't know most of them, since I'm used to belay with Grigri!
What about a video testing Prograde autobelay system at floor level?
I've tried on a climbing gym here in Italy, and it works quite great!
Best experience of ever, by using autobelay!
Regards
Mirko
your videos have an inrcedible quality, keep going like that even if you have to take a lot of time to make them
Great Experiments!
I would love to see Saleva Ergo Belay included as well.
But i guess you can't test them all ... there are so many!
yea exactly, I did tested the most popular once that are easy to buy.
Great video!
I'm not even a climber, not counting occasionally climbing a tree for a meter or two, but I still found both videos, this and the previous about the GriGri extremely interesting
I wonder if the mega jul perform like the jul 2 or the giga jul in experiment #1. Since it's like a jul2 with two holes, I think it could perform great in this situation. I use it in crags and alpine routes and never felt the rope to slip during falls when belaying.
About Ex #2, on edelrid devices you don't need to pull the device up. You feed the rope in the device (keeping your hand low, creating a loop and making the rope enter the device from above) and pull on the climber side. Once you learn how to do this there's no need to pull up.
edit: I wrote the commet before the end of the video
Super cool Video. I use the Fish from austrialpin. Would be really interesting if you could include this one too
Love your videos
The Giga-jul has two different modes: with and without brake assistance. May I ask which setting was tested here?
Thanks for your video! I found that the carabiner spine thickness has a major impact on the GigaJul's performance.Additionally I'm only using it with a classic "round" spine and not the aluminum beveled carabiners.
Thanks for the nice videos
I like this channel so much I like the videos before watching
Great video! It's very useful to know the limits and capabilities of the different belay devices. You showed that the gri-gri can be problematic if the belayer pinches the mechanism which could prevent it from locking. This is belaying right handed. I'd be curious if you've tested the similar thing if belaying left handed - but there, the common usage is to pinch the axis of the release level which does not hold the mechanism down. It seems that this method is actually better in this case since it should still quickly lock.
20:45 the most important point is that one is familiar with the device. That's why I still use classic tube. I have never been properly instructed with another device, so I stick to what I know works for me.
Thank you!!!
every time your hand goes in the device i laugh, very funny episode! :-)
I would have loved to see you wearing your leather gloves from the burn test here... I was really anxious about those impacts!
Wow great video. And, I learned on an ATC. Both on TOP ROPE and lead
Great video. Hope this creates more consciousness and proper use of devices.
I personally like the Mad Rock Lifeguard. It's spring is slightly harder than the Grigri making rope giving exactly the same as a tubular device. So there's no new method to learn and no mechanismi overriding.
Thanks again.
11
It´s super good enought! Thank´s czech Ryan
Thanks!
When i worked at a climbing gym, all our top rope routes were equipped with GriGri, and gym membets were required to take a test demonstrating proficiency with the device