Petzl Reverso and Black Diamond ATC guide break tests - how strong is that eye?
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- Опубліковано 20 лип 2021
- Bogdan Cardoş asked Petzl how strong the metal eye was on the atc guide since it is a single point of failure. They replied with "There is no standard requirement to communicate and breaking strength of the attachment point. The product has been designed to be used as described in the technical instruction. It is certified according to the EN standards so we don't have to communicate the breaking strength of the Reverso. Thank you for your TRUST"
Petzl is right, they don't have to tell you and it is probably super good enough, but trust? Trust is overrated, so I took my personal Petzl Reverso 4 and pulled it to destruction. Also, because we had them, we tested the Black Diamond ATC Guide and the smaller Black Diamond ATC Alpine Guide.
Our results:
NOTE: The 10.0mm static BD rope used in the following tests breaks in a figure 8 at at 17kn
►PETZL REVERSO 4 (amzn.to/3kzl4hW)
*Normal belay mode: slips while holding tail at 2kn and 2.5kn
*Normal belay mode: breaks rope at 10.64kn with tail at 3.12kn
*Double rope "rappel": breaks ropes at 19.59kn with tail at 6.49kn
*Wire breaks at 7.62kn
*Guide eye breaks at 12.41
►BLACK DIAMOND ATC GUIDE (amzn.to/3ze9D3i)
*In guide mode, rope slips at 5.5kn and 6.94kn
*In normal belay mode, slips at 2.44kn and breaks at 9.45kn
*Wire came out at 6.65kn
*Eye broke at 29.07kn
►BLACK DIAMOND ATC ALPINE GUIDE (amzn.to/2V0PwH2)
*Eye broke at 30.11kn
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Petzl's Letter
02:13 New Load Cell
02:42 Petzl Reverso with ropes
08:09 Petzl Reverso cable
09:07 Petzl Reverso EYE
12:01 BD ATC Guide with ropes
15:37 BD ATC Guide cable and eye
16:42 BD ATC ALPINE Guide eye
18:15 Bonus content
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Great to know we can use ATCs as nuts.
I feel tempted to try it. But then not that motivated yeeting myself off a wall to find out.
@@vfnt I mean, just climb high and add a cam backup
This is what he's saying after all
You can also use nuts as nuts - that is how they got the name… How bolts got their name too. Nuts and bolts as 🔩 nuts and bolts.
@@NoName-OG1
Oh, there is a video of someone testing nuts as nuts and falling in them.
Somehow I would be more comfortable doing that than falling on an ATC-nut
"I don't own Petzl, I own a slack-snap machine"
what a quote hahaha
Ha Hah Hah! That was a weak ass answer from Petzl!!! Yeah I’m talking to you petzl!! I’m buying a black diamond after this video, bruh 😎
Honestly, that was some garbage response from petzl. Yes that might be the underlying message, but the answer to your customer could have been along the lines of: "we have no way of telling you concisely how this was tested" not, "We're not obligated by law to tell you anything". At that point why even have a technical question service?
@@jeroenfeher8107 good point! We are trusting them with our life. It’s understandable to be a little needy lol
Ryan is basically the demo ranch of the rope world.
That is, he never remembers things get hot.
That's matt, from Matts off road recovery (multiple times in the build of their 4wd, and fab rats).
@@lukeamos9495 UA-cam algorithms are weird.
:'D indeed.
17:05 🤣 …”any _thoughts_ Bobby?”
“..can we go eat?”
Thank you for putting in so much effort and HOURS into testing the strengths of these things! I’m not an avid climber myself, just watching to learn and maybe know for future climbs. Big love from Australia 🖤💛❤️
Bobby: 2 hands is only 25% stronger
Ryan: that’s what I tell her
😂 💀
Soooo since you're always mentioning how warm/hot the equipment gets after a break, it may be kinda cool to see them through an infrared camera.
ohhhhh I wonder if I can borrow the super nice Flir from work...I'd bring beer and DMM revolvers for the drop tower. *As many as it takes*
Yessss Ryan please do this. FLIR attachments for phones are pretty cheap these days. Doesn't have to be fancy. You could watch in real time where the heat originates and how it propagates through the various components being tested.
Or a heat gun
That letter definitely had the "We don't actually know but it is strong enough for the intended use" vibe to it.
Captain America - “it runs on some form of electricity”
Ryan - “it reads electricity and gives us numbers”
New to this series & climbing somewhat . These guys are dope! So much more to learn but these guys help so I’m appreciative. Peace&love from Boston,Ma
Thanks for all the hard work you guys do to provide this invaluable Information. Keep up the great work
Good job gentlemen. I don’t even slackline, yet, and I really appreciate that your work allows me to make my future purchases more informed.
The first 8 seconds of this video are the best. Genuine wholesome honesty, love it. Also, very helpful vid. Ty ty ty
You should test out the DMM pivot. I'm curious to see whether the pin on the pivot mechanism is stronger or weaker than a traditional solid piece.
You guys are really the best. I've been watching all these tests with baited breath, they have really allowed me to be much more confident in gear, generally speaking. Thank you. ATC 26 KN. Hmm. Lower than I though in the Petzl.
Interesting on how strong those eyes are. Thanks again.
"How does a climber get 4, maybe 5 kN and I can hang on just fine?"
The rope *should* slip through a bit in a fall. That reduces the peak force of the shock load. F=ma, a=dv/dt, by increasing dt (time of the change in velocity) due to the slip the acceleration drops, and thus the force drops.The same thing is why dynamic ropes stretch.
And most likely rarely received all the load the climber gets themselves. I reckon the rope drag makes some of the load transfer through the quickdraws thus reducing load on the belayer.
“Yeah science bitch!”
And the belayer just gets pulled of the ground from a certain force.
@@juliensantini5882 I believe the tests he references were from the vid where he had a dynamometer on both the belayer and climber
Great info Ryan. I appreciate you and your channel man seriously
Thank you for this test.
The eye of the petzl, which I am using all the time, look so unstable that I really was thinking about this a few times.
I think partly because you have a lot of time to wonder while belaying your second...
Thanks
Yeah 12kn is lower than I would have hoped to be honest. It's definitely a weaker if not the weakest link in the chain.
I actually enjoy the videos being out of order... it's like a daily puzzle trying to fit it into the timeline depending on background/dyno/Bobby commentary 😄👍 I always have something to do, even if I'm not super curious about items that I'll probably never use, although this test is one I was definitely interested in, but Ryan breaking anything is always pretty interesting to begin with 😆
That email from Petzl is hysterical and oh so reassuring. Not gonna tell you… “Thanks for your trust”, but just in case “All the best”. They may want to rethink their customer comms strategy.
I can't believe the response from Petzl. I find that email totally dismissive and condescending. What a black eye for the Petzl brand!
Fun story I learned from a Petzl engineer.
When Petzl developed the first Reverso, the one made from sheet steel, they tried originally to have the attachment loop perpendicular to the plane of the tuber to allow optimal orientation on most belay anchors - exactly like on a plate. However, they could not find a way to manufacture with the needed stability at an affordable price point and went with an attachment point in the middle plane of the device.
When they switched to an aluminium body of the revverso, they corrected that problem and we're quite amazed that everybody else including Black Diamond copied the design of the original steel Reverso in their aluminium-bodied designs.
The perpendicular loop is still harder to manufacture and whether you prefer it or not probably depends on how you rig your belays and which anchors you typically encounter and thus both design philosophies coexist. But if Petzl would have found a way to turn the loop in the original steel Reverso, probably everyone would have followed that design.
I would be super curious about the DMM pivot. I can't find a strength rating for the device, and that pivot seems like it would be harder to make super good enough.
I would very much like to see the comparison of the DMM Pivot to the BD ATC Guide. That little pin in the Pivot has to be a weak point. Sure, the pivoting action would make it easier to lower people, but I can't get that little pin our of my mind when I think about buying one. I've looked at the DMM info, and there is no rating on that part of the device.
When holding a fall you are not taking all the load on the belay device, there is a chain of things making it soft like all the gear placed. If the rope zig zags a lot the friction will take out pressure from the belay device and apply it to the anchors. That's why you try not to zig zag a lot on trad gear (using double ropes or extending very long the quick draws). I'm guessing that's why your messuring only about 2Kn while trying to hold the belay device directly but you would be able to hold a higher force on a fall where there's a bunch of gear placed. Cool tests could come out of more "real world" scenarios. Thanks for the work your doing.
I also want to Thank You Most Generously for helping me teach me fiance. I just showed her what you were doing with holding the line on the ATC at 2.58KN, and reminded her of the various techniques I was teaching her two weeks ago on belaying. She is very thankful for you and will probably be a new subscriber soon
Commenting to help this awesome channel!
Belaying with a guide device:
"Lower me!"
*five minutes later*
"Lowering!"
How, if at all, has your gear use/choice changed over the course of your testing?
"and if this thing breaks, you're no longer climbing in a partnership." Another great line that justifies watching this video.
Stoked on the drop tower.
Congrats dudes!
Confession... Used a DMM Bug as a nut once after running out on a long traverse... Didn't fall! Anything is better than nothing?
Confession. I've used an old school rock (an actual loose rock that I found a few metres below in another crack) jammed in a crack with a prusik cord around it because I ran out of pro, and I fell on it. It was fine. Things we do when we're young and stupid...
@@Intermernet sounds smarter than stupid, you placed pro the best you could (which clearly was good enough) instead of taking a massive fall
also, will be good to know how strong is a rope man and a rope man 2 from wild country, thank you
yes, please!
This would be awesome to see
Probably about the same?
Please do this!
This is great as always, thanks guys !!!
This one is super interesting. Thank you!
Hey Ryan, what do you think is stronger the DMM pivot or the ATC guide? I don’t trust the reverso anymore…
Would’ve been interesting to see a DMM pivot in the test
I want to thank you for helping me get caught up on tech.
Interesting content. Just broke petzl
Zig-Zag a couple days ago. It’s pretty faith inspiring actually 😁
Occasionally I'll use the reverso in guide mode clipped to my belay loop as a safety when setting TR. Usually the safety line is a static rope (part of the anchor). If you don't manage your slack and take a bad fall, I'd think you could generate quite a bit of force. But you'd probably break before the device...
Sorry I don’t understand the setup described. Or even why would you do it when setting up a TR? Is it part of your PAS somehow?
@benoitcerrina it's PAS, yes. The guide hole clips to me, and a fixed line runs to an anchor back from the edge. Imagine you were using guide mode to ascend, that's basically the setup. The places I climb don't allow bolts, and often don't have good pro at the edge, so TR setups usually use static lines to far away trees. Often we go back and forth during setup, so there can be a lot of slack in a safety line, sometimes when we're navigating 4th or 5th class terrain. Grigris are better, but sometimes you don't have one 😉
Ah, I understand a bit better as I only climbed single and multi pitch sport climbs I never came across such cases.@@ryancheney7772
Interesting there is written Tendon, as the manufacturer of Tendon ropes is actually called Lanex (in czech lano = rope) I would expect there the manufacturers name rather than the brand.
Great content! Thanks as always.
you guys are awesome thank you.
Can you try testing BEAL ropes that have unicore? Would be interesting to see because when ever a rope seems to fail the mantle is pulled of first and then the core snaps, but with unicore ropes mantle and core are one unit.
Man, there are just so many things to break!
I guessed 10-15kN but started to doubt myself with your guesses. Woah, it was 12.4 and man is that low!
Crazy results
Thanks Larry!
We need more Lary.
Could you test how strong an ascender is?
I asked DMM the same thing about the Pivot belay device (which has a hinged connection point). Simon Marsh, one of the DMM engineers answered: „The Pivot guide mode anchor connection point is rated to a minimum of 16kN” ! Maybe you might want to check this value too?!
About the guide mode failure, Jim Titt wrote a comment on MP Forum:
"First Fail Mode:
The trapped rope escapes sideways from under the tensioned rope and gets trapped between the tensioned rope and the side of the slot.This is very difficult to free off and you have to dismantle everything and twist the locking krab brutally to release the rope. Take your Prusiks.
Second fail mode:
Apply yet more load and the trapped rope where it crosses the tensioned rope goes down through the slot with a bang. At this point the holding power drops off considerably but not catastrophically, though pretty near!
Easy to release, just unclip the krab when unweighted. Still need to take your Prusiks!
ATC Guide. 10.2 Mammut, used, non-treated. First fail mode 4.8kN. No second fail mode, rope sheath cut at ca 9kN.
ATC Guide. 9mm Edelrid, used, non treated. First fail mode 2.96kN. Max fail load 5.58kN. Residual load 1.6kN
ATC Guide. 8.2mm Edelrid, new,treated. First fail mode 2.05kN. Max fail load 4.06kN. Residual load 1.2kN
Reverso³. 10.2 Mammut, used, non treated. First fail mode 3.68kN. No second fail mode. Rope sheath cut ca 9kN
Reverso³. 9mm Edelrid, used, non treated. First fail mode 2.25kN. Max fail load 3.60kN. Residual load 0.9kN
Reverso³. 8.2mm Edelrid, new,treated. First fail mode 1.6kN. Max fail load 2.38kN. Residual load 0.7kN
All with Petzl Attache 12mm round profile karabiner.
The first failure is both strands are crossing inside the device and it jams up solid, you hear a sharp bang as this happens (we though something had broken). Then the crossing point of the ropes is forced out of the bottom of the plate and the original rope positions is reversed with a twist at the karabiner.
With thicker ropes as the crossing point starts to come out below the plate the rope is forced onto the underneath of the sides of the plate and core-shots so it doesn´t really ever reverse completely but shreds itself instead.
You can get a good idea of what happens by using a thinnish (6mm or so) cord and bouncing on it.
In that case, their 16 kN hinge is directly compared to the BD ATC Guide at 30 kN. The DMM Pivot's design puts a weak point at the pin. Jim Titt gave us interesting information, but the rest of that stuff about the second fail mode doesn't compare the DMM with the ATC or Reverso. It seems that doing all these secondary failure modes with the rope problem got his Titt in a wringer. Still the question remains, how many kN will a Titt in a wringer hold?
Probably the Petzel if uncompromised would break over 16 kN if it wasn't compromised in the other testing.
We can only beg and genuflect to the How Not To Highline gods, that they will verify the breaking strength of a DMM Pivot.
This is great as always. I think it would be ingesting to see what would happen if you pulled on a quad anchor in two directions at the same time. This could happen if you have a haul bag on one set of strands and a climber juging on the other. Also once you get the drop tower built it would be interesting to see it pulled in different vertical directions. As if you have a haul bag or other person and a ladder takes a fall. Thanks!
I really wonder what the dmm pivot would be like where it’s not all one solid piece
That's what I use and I could have sworn I had seen the rating on the sheet or online, or maybe it was in one of their demo videos. Of course can't find it now. - but yeah I want to know, too.
The guide style device I would most like to see tested is the DMM pivot, I would like to know how the pin effects the breaking strength.
Maybe save it for the drop tower but the micro traction test would be cool because so many people use it for rope solo! And I was thinking rope brake strength not device failure! Thanks Ryan and Bobby for the videos😁
"I, am not saying that!!" I got a good laugh out of that. Good call my friend.
my guess would be 15kN
well i guessed 2.5kn to high
the Reverso on the Wall would be very very nice!
no, not really the same shape...
29 kn is crazy! Makes me feel good and safer then just 12kn
nice Video
"THANKS FOR YOUR TRUST LOL"
Makes me feel good about my ATC guide 👌
You're my hero for making this video! My guess is 12kn.
Do you think you can break the reverso eye with 2 ropes in auto-block mode? Sometimes I belay two people off a guide atc and I imagine losing 2 partners at once.
How could both partners simultaneously generate 6kN? Idk, belay-ledge shenanigans and they both take factor 2s?
😬 I wouldn’t chance it, but I’m a nobody!
You make a very good point. I use the ATC Guide in the guide mode fairly often to belay two people up. Gourgou is wrong, you don't have to be belaying two leaders. You can be belaying two climbers from above as the device was designed to do. As you said, it would take something like both climbers to fall at the same time with some slack in the rope, very close to the time they reached the belay. An example of this could be if two climbers coming up on top rope reached a ledge a few feet below the belay device. There is a minimal amount of rope out between the device and the two climbers. Let's say the ledge gives way and both climbers fall a short distance on a short rope- the scenario of a factor two fall. Could this cause a failure? Fortunately, with a breaking strength of 30 kN, it seems very unlikely that the eye would break from the main part of the device. However, the force could slam the ATC Guide into the rock and compromise the lab values.
He didn't test Reverso the way I wanted! (Top-rope scenario)
:((
This is awesome I was just looking up if you tested these the other day. 🤘🏼
Great info. I've always wondered.
You should test common rope-grabs, and at what point they damage the rope, e.g. Tibloc, Ropeman, jumar, etc.
I’d wager Bobby could hold 3.0 KN using his fancy yellow forearm “bushwhacker” protector as tie-off.... ! .....
Petzl probably won't tell you because they don't make reversos themselves... better to ask dmm...
Do you have source for that ? I've been to the petzl factory and they do make metal climbing stuff in there. Why would the reverso be produced elsewhere ?
@@moonti6820 on the back of the package of a reverso it will say 'made in the UK'. DMM makes reversos in Llanberis on behalf of Petzl as they don't have the hot forging expertise dmm does. Petzl ropes also aren't made by petzl, they're Edelrid. On that matter, I believe BD ropes are made by tendon I think.
I’m blown away by how strong that wire is. My partner had the cable just fall off once. It was mildly annoying. But would have sucked it if dropped mid climb.
¡Gracias thanks for all your work is inspiring!!
I think it's 3 Hulks Strong
Thanks Bobby and Ryan, i was thinking about the load while belaying my friend from top with my Reverso on Sunday. 12,41 Kn is enough but actually disappointed against to BD. Now thinking seriously to buy Black Diamond Atc.
The main difference for me to opt out for petzl is the weight, it's 57 gr, for the 80 of the atc guide or the 73 of the alpine, and the 12 kn, precompromissed, is still enough for any second falling
@@juanfigueroa8736 I love the beefy design of the BD ATC Guide. That thing inspires confidence. 23 grams difference, what's that about four beer farts?
I love that webbing bowline. I can think of several (low force) uses for it.
The most interesting part was at the end when you indentified the Black Diamond rope as being the manufactured by Tendon from the Czech Republic.
Love your setup! Cheers from Australia just subbed.nice work 🙂👍👍👍
Hay I love your videos and have been binge watching them. I think it would be interested to see where the failure point is and at what KN rating a rope passed through a anchor bolt and back down (making a retrievable rappel) Then try different devices to see what is safest and if any pinch the rope or if the small bend radius effects the rope.... So may variables I don't know where it would fail? Finger 8? ATC?
Ryan,
I know you've tested all these pro's singularly. But I would be really curios what and actual gear anchor rips at? Like 3 cams, in real rock? With soft shackles obviously, right?
I think that when someone takes a fall, the force inside the belay device happens in a short period of time, so it may slip a little bit, but then the peak force is over and you have to hold just the body weight and thats fine without any slipping. The slipping is probably so less, that the rope between the device and the belayer can absorb the movement of the rope with its dynamic behavior.
Well done and bonus egg for those who hang in there until 19:54!
best channel
Some people use a reverso as a self belay device for rope soloing. In this mode the device is clipped from the 'guide hole' to the climber's belay loop. In a big lead fall onto a rope that's fixed to the anchor at the bottom of the pitch the device could concievably see 5 or 6 kN +.
would u attempt these tests with a dmm pivot?
It's okay, I smashed the like button.
I would relay love to see a brake test of the Mammut Smart 2.0
I was about to comment, exactly what you predicted, right before you did, but then I thought "hmm, maybe I should watch all the way to the end, before I comment" and I was right...
But now I'm thinking, why didn't you test the self blocking mode with a double strand? That could lead to twice the force on the back eye
looking forward to you snapping a Petzl Rig
Crazy that the reverso held 7.6kn on the keeper wire. I had the wire rip out on a BD ATC guide from it getting a little bit stuck while scrambling.
Which knot do you use to test the strength of the rope?
5:55
TY, Great Videos
8:40 “I’m just watching UA-cam and can’t think for myself”😂
I thought it read more like "we don't have to actually test it, so we haven't. It has been certified to meet the relevant standard. Just use it as intended and you won't have to worry about it. Good day."
I accidentally set up my reverso upside down once and unintentionally used the smaller unloading hole instead of the larger top belay hole. Did you guys happy to test the other hole on the reverso?
I use an Edelrid Giga Jul and the eye to use guide mode seems really wimpy and definitely needs testing by you guys 🙂
Great question, I also own a Reverso, and I have wondered before. I would say that it should at least hold 22 kN, it would be kind of weird if it should not hold at least that. But My guess would be 23,5 kN, just for fun :)
so i wanted to comment something.. started to write this comment, forgot what i was about to comment... so.. yeah, here´s my pointless comment.. i guess for the algorythm?! anyway, keep it going guys, really enjoying the show and gaining some knowledge!
3:35 does the climber get 4-5kN, or does the anchor? The force on the anchor would be roughly twice the force on the climber and belayer, not accounting for friction.
Would you be able to try a break tests on a new hitch called the jrb hitch. It can take a crazy load and can be easily untied after.??
If you have already tried this... my bad. Set up Reverso in guide mode, tie knot in "climbers" rope to protect them (block feed). At what force would x-knot be pulled through the barrel of a Reverso while in guide mode?
I think the rope would break before a knot got pulled through the barrel. Or the device would fail. That knot isn’t going through that barrel.
UV exposed / old span sets next!?! Or have you done those already?
Can you test how much force you can put on an Ascender before it kills the rope?
One thing missing from the break test - the DMM pivot which has a non conventional guide mode hinge
Be careful asking people to use the amazon link for anything and everything. If its not for a specific item your breaching the amazon T&C... I know its stupid but it has happened to youtubers in the past and they are kicked from the program... Another awesome video, im stoked for the drop tower!
i'm curious to know how many G forces one would experience to achieve these gear failure numbers. i'm not sure if it would be enough to cause a blackout but injury's would definitely be there.
As a rope access worker (and a climber), the common thing (I think) they say when you're learning is that you'll break yourself at around 6kN. Needless to say you'll be broken before your gear, and obviously I didn't made any test to confirm or negate this value.
@HowNOT2, Could you do the slipping test with a rope at the extreme low end of the acceptable diameter for the autobloc? At times I have wondered if the ropes couldn't flip over each other and send my partner into a free-fall...
How does a climber get 4-5 kN and a belayer can hang on just fine?
Because you normally only need to hold on with a force equivalent to your body weight and then you get lifted off the ground. If the belay device was glued to the ground completely statically, the rope would slide through instead, but probably only for a very short time until the force of the fall was dissipated through friction and stuff, so not very far. You might regret not wearing gloves though.
Oooh, could you hold on to the rope like that with a force meter but both with and without belay gloves just to see how much difference it makes in how hard you can pull?
I would be keen to see what the original petzl reverso does. The steel one before they gave it the stylish alloy body.