This is the type of content we need, industry insiders who know what they are talking about and can dispel truth from rumours. Great episode. Would be great to have Joe come back on the channel.
@@ChinaCycling I’m following you for a while being in China myself and this video is an eye opener. Very informative and lots of insights. Give the Serk in the background some love.
8:42 Nail on the head. Covid Warranty years, i've seen it in my own engineering job with the supply chain in China. I could not travel to China for 2 years. It used to be a day trip to SZ from HK. On the train by 9am and home for tea. Sky high Covid demand for bikes, no QC reps going to check, brands pushing crazy tight shipment deadlines amid lockdowns = warranty warranty warranty. Hopefully the duds are now clearing but it was messy. Splendid video you 3 guys. 22:05 I know of one high end factory (SZ based, Taiwan owned) that went to Vietnam and Myanmar. Vietnam stuck and is producing a lot but Myanmar, they only lasted a month or so before they pulled it.
I owe my whole ''UA-cam Career'' (if that's a thing) to Joe. He trusted me since day one and we build up an incredible relationship over the years. It's actually incredible what Joe's do for the world of cycling. Great episodes guys!
Thanks for the mention CC. Great insights again! The SL7 S-Works was the WORST tarmac Ive ever owned and Ive ridden EVERY iteration since 2004 when they first dropped. When I sold them both I warned the buyers they are a sluggish slow riding frame. They didnt care. They just wanted the hype so fair enough.
@@BQS1234 I learned this in 1999 when I noticed Jalaberts bike was not a stock TCR. It was welded different. We rode back from Gawler to Adelaide CBD. Just me a mate and Team Once with the team car behind us down Main North Road. Can confirm though that Lances OCLV frames were made stock by Trek and so were all the team bikes with the exception of his 1999 TT bike with was a Litespeed Blade painted with Trek logos.
Panda podium should have a voting system for paying customers to get things they’re curious about added to the site if they test well. Just like bicycle rolling resistance
This is absolutely fascinating, there is no other way to put it. Having the secrets "exposed" like this is exactly what the cycling world needs to hear more of. Instead of idle rumour mongering or random posts on places like Reddit, we get it from people who are actually there and know what is going on in these factories. And for the record, I do not begrudge the manufacturers doing this - it's obvious that to compete, you have to rely on manufacturing partners in Asia. And you do have to place a level of trust in them, as well. However what you can not do is promise the consumer the same frame that Professional X or Y is riding in the Giro, at the prices they are demanding, and deliver nothing of the sort... Amazing episode!
Likely one of the most insightful cycling videos I've ever heard.. incredible stuff guys! Keep up the incredible journalism! This type of content NEEDS to be covered, whether it feels awkward or not!
We are barely halfway through the year but I’m nominating this episode as episode of the year. I’ve been a casual watcher of this channel but you’ve earned a subscriber with this. Keep it up guys!
Brilliant colab lads. Usually wait till the following morning t when I’m out riding to listen. But after you and Jesse talking about the Chinese bike scene and how little we know, couldn’t wait to hear someone’s take, who is living there. Very interesting.
We have known for a few years the industry driven by major brands and sellout youtube channels like GCN, bikeradar, David Arthur and Cycling Weekly have been taking the piss but this just confirms it
@@ChinaCycling Joe courageous, candid and professional, while respecting others, a very difficult line to walk but you pull it off 100%. Leadership and integrity are highly personal qualities and that’s why I’m confident PandaPodium is going to be a game changer in the wider cycling industry. You deserve every success 👏 retired CEO 👍
11:40 needs to be talked about more. The whole point of the UCI's rules is that what they race can be purchased by anyone. Having a special carbon layup to stiffen them and improve them completely undermines this.
UCI is corrupt. Teams have been using different frames forever. My first IRL evidence was riding with Jalabert in 1999. His TCR was custom welded and made. Sagan won Roubaix on a rim brake Roubaix that was never sold to the public. UCI makes rules for some and bends rules for others. Depends how much you will pay them.
I grew up riding road bikes in Beijing and all my friends are cyclists now for some reason. I worked at a industry company making cycling GPS and I like hanging out with people working at the factories (from engineers to painters). In our private group chats, we would talk about how Look makes special reinforced track frames for the Chinese national team and our painter friends would show us naked and painted frames a year before they were announced (the new super six, Cervelo Aspero, the new Tarmac, Aethos). We have a saying "Bike industry don't fool poor people" because they wouldn't fall for the marketing, but is that really true?
The bike industry fools newbies and unfortunately seasoned cyclists. Now when I say that, I mean an older person with a high budget, and little to 0 knowledge of bikes. Sure they ride a lot but an outside mechanic is servicing the bike..
@@jani724 I would add that from where I see it even experienced cyclists of many years can also be susceptible. Frankly knowledge of bike geometry, the importance physics plays, especially in correct bike fit, and a good understanding of bike mechanics are the only antidotes to certain parts the modern bike industry. Interesting how highly experienced bike mechanics are often critical of many new tech ideas or abysmal failures on manufacturing QC.
Guys, this is awesome! Congrats and THANK YOU for creating this podcast/talk show and having all these awesome guests to talk about whatever you are talking about. Really awesome stuff.
Very interesting, it's funny how things didn't changed after so many years. Kona used to do the same thing for aluminium Taiwan produced frames in the past...
Superb interview and chat with Joe. Really interesting. Thank you Chris, Jesse and Joe! Keep ‘em coming guys - this has to be my favorite cycling channel by far. 👏👏👏
Fairly new to the channel, but you two have a really good thing going. A breath of fresh to hear honest opinions about anything bikes and not beholden to anyone. Just pure love for cycling and the cycling community at large. In the US, cycling and specifically racing is totally in the gutter. During the Armstrong years, every field from cat 5 to cat 1 and juniors were filled. It saddens me because my junior daughter is a n endurance track cyclist and this discipline is also dying. Yet, middle age men on $11000 bikes are everywhere. I own a Canyon Ultimate Rim and I love it. $2800 with Ultegra. I will be visiting Panda Cycling shortly. One question for joe, since most bike stuff is made in China, are the products from the big cycling brands just way overpriced for profit, or has the cost of manufacturing just gotten out of control? Keep up the good work boys. Love Jesse youtube stuff on training too.
As someone who has bought a lot of stuff from China, I found this very interesting. On a side note, most of the cyclists I know have never heard of Ali Express and think it's mad to buy from China,. They think its all cheap crap.
This is the best bike industry video I've ever seen and it's only been a few like 17min of a 1 hour plus video lol I've learnt so much like I thought Giant made everything on their bikes and wheels and we learnt they don't make the carbon spokes on their Cadex wheels.
Awesome video, so intersting, thanks guys and thank you Joe for your huge efforts. Just one comment, I buy Chinese products (I bought a Winspace frame and Lun Hyper wheels) because they are quality and cheap and I only buy direct from China. I flatly refuse to buy chinese marketed products from a local distributor. The whole point of their product is to be an alternative to local marked up distributors. Winspace is now stocked in an Australian distributor at a premium, such shame. If I can't buy from Winspace direct, then goodbye.
In the tennis industry it was the same with regards to what the pros were using verses what’s being sold in pro shops. Babolat was sued over this and now on all their racquet header cards it states that “Team Babolat Pro players may play with a customized or different model than the equipment depicted.” Be glad to send you a pic of the card if you’d like. Honestly I’m surprised the bike companies haven’t had a similar lawsuit.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Let’s see what the UCI have to say about this in detail ? Wonder if we’ll get any meaningful enforcement of rules long on the books or just squeak, squeak……..I’m a 🐭. What happened historically is past what the UCI does (or fails to do) will impact the future
I absolutely love the nero show and look forward to the eps each week out of everything on youtube, but this ep especially was absolutely fascinating, Joe is an incredibly interesting guy. Love it Chris great work.
I wouldn't think about it when your show started that I am going to love it so much, now couldn't miss an episode. Big Respect, thanks for the dedication!
I thoroughly enjoyed this video, especially when WindSpace was the subject.I purchased a G2 gravel bike and put all Campy Ekar on it ( Wheels,13 grouppo…a real sweet ride. Thx guys for doing this video. Chris, Jesse and Joe👍🚴♀️🚴♀️😎
I got the R5 Pro E-bike model that is sold by about 12-15 companies. The bike was built in China. I bought mine with the Ride 66 company logo on it from a seller in Hong Kong. I am overwhelmed with how happy I am with the quality of the bike. I have 5400 miles in 12 months. I have also lost 35 pounds.
Regarding the idea that world tour teams increase the exposure of cycling brands, it was only 2 days ago that I realised Astana were on Hed wheels this year, and that's only because one of their riders crashed in the Giro. It's not a good ROI unless you're a title sponsor in my opinion.
A really good call and episode with Joe. Never had an issue with Ali express, just make sure you do your homework. Have 2 pairs of Winspace Lun wheels, one set direct and latest Grevil's from Australian distributor. Fantastic wheels. As Joe hinted, why not buy direct from the makers. Also have Elves frame from Elves Australia. Might have to change my name to Joe!!!
Great job guys! Awesome to hear Joe's perspective and have already started building up my wish list of products from Panda Podium for a future build. Wishing Panda Podium every success in it's goals!
I think there was one main point that was not discussed--many people do not want to buy products directly from China because there is no way to legally go after the company in a tangible way should there be a problem with the product. When there is no company formed in, for example, the US, people will be extremely reluctant to make a large $$$ purchase because there is no local support.
After so much of the discussion being focused around value and the difficulty of competing with western brands I decided to hop on the website to see if I could help support the project. I was met with 90 dollar jerseys and cranksets over 500 dollars. Equally expensive (if not moreso) with none of the support or hands on experience that I could achieve by going to my local bike shop. Huge swing and and bigger miss.
That was really interesting. This interview will make shock waves in the cycling community. A real eye opener on the the truth on high end bike companies and cultural differences.
Thanks Chris & Jesse for having the foresight to help clear the “Clouds & Smoke” about China and to Joe for his obvious wealth of knowledge everything China with Cycling. Hopefully with this the Prices of Cycling goods that blew up after Covid, Chinese cycling brands will get more traction to help bring prices out of the stratosphere.. Well Done guys!! Keep the interesting content coming. 🙏🏻
he really knows what companies are doing...ex... in taiwan... some popular brand dont have their own factories so they look for the factories that can manufacture their product ..for example the lcd panel..samsung, LG have there own factory for the lcd panel but if they cant meet the production quantity they pay other factory that can provide the panel .... there are many factory that can manufacture the lcd panel ... another example the GIANT bike...are not all made by giant factory...they also pay other factory that can provide the production for the giant bike...
What suprise to hear this guy saying the exact thing you were saying in the last vid about pros frames not being the exact same as the ones available to the public. One of the better and most relevant vids on UA-cam. Well done guys
What an incredible interview. I have no way to verify any of this info, but nothing sounds ridiculous. Often here in the west, the great firewall and language barrier keeps us from knowing what the manufacturing world looks like in the east. This is a rare chance to peek behind that curtain and it is fascinating what brands have been able to do in what amounts to total secrecy.
Haha, everyone is free to take everything I say with a grain of salt. The only way I can "prove" most of these things is by throwing people under the bus, which is not cool.
@@ChinaCycling Hoenstly, that makes what you say more believable in a strange way and I understand the situation there can be... precarious. Either way, we appreciate the info. Being in manufacturing (not bikes) myself, I am just clueless to how things work in the east. Even though I know your sample size is 1, it is still informative.
Joe was good chatting with Peak Torque and Hambini but i think he was working for Winspace at the time but today he ws brilliant. So much interesting stuff.
Great width and depth on Chinese cycling in this episode. I learned lots. Thanks Joe especially. I was just looking for a new mid-chainring on an Ultegra triple (10spd), and Wiggle/CRC/Bike 24 have less stock range now than before they got bought by an investment firm 2-3y ago. And then Shimano won't let them sell from EU into Australia, region market segmenting. Shimano Aust haven't had this Ultegra cog or a mid-cog for an XT 10 spd crankset 6-9mo ago. So a bit more diversification on the supply side can only be a good thing. Good luck Panda Podium.
Ostro and Exceed aren't even remotely similar designs or layups, and geo is wildly different. They're produced on different lines at the same factory. But the finish and decals look virtually identical because the attached paint line likes to limit options - Ostro isn't even painted in Taiwan, despite what it says on the frame. Not quite sure how Factor get away with it.
great video. I watched from the beginning to the end. Just some friendly suggestions, you can probably break down a long interview like this into several sequences. This will not only increase the UA-cam watch rate, completed view rate, and average percentage viewed but also help expand the reach of your video to a wider audience
The topic towards the end of questioning a future where China has a monopoly on the industry was fascinating, and I think another layer that should be considered there is fact that the production is already moving out of China to find cheaper labor. Does that culture of rapid business development still mean China is likely to dominate even as those industries are spreading and evolving?
Very informative. One aspect of China's rise in bicycle manufacturing is its increasing share, perhaps dominance, of the work-a-day side of cycling components, previously the purview of Shimano. We're not talking about performance/competition cycling here. To wit, I'm not a racer but ride every day, have several bikes, all of which feature off-brand SPD pedals, chains, cassettes, chainrings, accessories, etc made in China. What the budding pros are presently discovering as Chinese production moves up the value chain should not be news to the rank and file multitudes.
Love it. Even people who watch this video, they will still continue to pay over the price premium brands 😅😅😅. Joe is awesome at what he is doing. I bought the winspace because of him. I'm glad I did especially with the quality control for specialized during the lockdown. Big eye opener that. No wonder why the Aethos took forever to be released here in Shanghai. Anyways, happy with my rimbrake winspace SLC 2.0. Looking forward to a follow up from durian rider. ❤❤
You guys nailed it. The future is up to who controls the raw materials. Since 3D printing is here to stay, then labor isn't going to be a part of what is the next best bike by price. That said, do we know what new metal is going to become the next best thing yet. A shift will come and with 3d printers becoming more available, imagine that you buy the materials and plans and make it at home. I like that idea.
Q for the next time - giving all those insights into Chinese cycling manufacturing, is it worth buying a bike from, say, Time or 3T, who approach carbon layups differently or just simply purchasing would be better?
I met an old chap about 3 years ago , who was long retired, but his job was to go and check the factories in Asia checking on controls for big big brands , he said they have 3-4 factories, they will often have a factory they send the controller too , which is all checked everything is checked and dotted, but the other 3 are well below board, he said he caught them a few times, but not often. He said to me from his experience don't be fooled
Wheel Top went live in the US for sales in early May. Fb and email ad campaign accompanying. The site went to "sold out" within about a week. Emails from the contact at the company website replied sort of evasively but talked about "launching" (again?) in the US with a SX variant. One can only assume they mean the fixed-battery version. Interestingly, ezbike in canada appears to be still selling the removable battery version. Interesting stuff, thanks for the additional insight, Joe.
Perhaps the most important question is how do the Chinese dispose all of the tones of rejects and of cuts? (The sea ?) As for the workers they work unbelievable long hours and some never see their families for weeks or months. Not a good picture for cycling or 🇨🇳.
Absolutely fantastic subject matter, presenters and clarity of many questions I've personally wondered about. Thank you for taking the time to make this video available. I'm very interested in Joe's idea of a boutique component bike build, as I briefly explored a home build project but ended up buying a name brand due to the overall component costs. Although, with a recent bike fit, I'm funneling more money into the bike as the fit indicated that I need the stem and handlebars replaced to truly make the bike "fit" me rather than their mythical size 56 rider. Hopefully this kind of forced component replacement expenditure could be addressed/reduced if submission of rider specific measurements and or previous bike fit data could be submitted. Nirvana, would be if the component inventory would be sent to an affiliated LBS which would do the actual assemble, assuming the purchaser can't do it all themselves (facing, lack of bottom bracket tools, ....). In Canada there is a 6% duty charge on assembled bikes parts (e.g. Wheels sets), which could be avoided. Six percent could easily go towards higher quality components.
Love it great show guys, a member of panda already.. ali express sensai in general. Had 2 groupsets the first one failed (the plastic shifter bits).. gave some trust bought the 1x srx pro , love it still goin strong on the gravel bike
This is the type of content we need, industry insiders who know what they are talking about and can dispel truth from rumours. Great episode. Would be great to have Joe come back on the channel.
1000% agree and we will absolutely have Joe back on on if he has time. We could have kept chatting for another 2 hours.
Yeah, lets get some questions in the comments and we'll address them next time!
@@ChinaCycling I really enjoyed your interview and learned so, so much!
This is a superb interview! The amount of knowledge Joe has about what’s happening in China is amazing. Really great job!
Thanks for the love. Credit goes to Chris and Jessie for keeping me on track and stopping me waffling on about nonesense...
@@ChinaCycling I’m following you for a while being in China myself and this video is an eye opener. Very informative and lots of insights. Give the Serk in the background some love.
8:42 Nail on the head. Covid Warranty years, i've seen it in my own engineering job with the supply chain in China. I could not travel to China for 2 years. It used to be a day trip to SZ from HK. On the train by 9am and home for tea. Sky high Covid demand for bikes, no QC reps going to check, brands pushing crazy tight shipment deadlines amid lockdowns = warranty warranty warranty. Hopefully the duds are now clearing but it was messy. Splendid video you 3 guys.
22:05 I know of one high end factory (SZ based, Taiwan owned) that went to Vietnam and Myanmar. Vietnam stuck and is producing a lot but Myanmar, they only lasted a month or so before they pulled it.
I love how you guys let the interviewee talk without interrupting him.
🙏🏻
This was a big element of the interview. Getting gold from Joe
Host active listening is rare and powerful well done you two. Fascinating vlog 🙏
Joe comes across as an extremely confident guy who understands his market.
With all its cultural complexities.
I owe my whole ''UA-cam Career'' (if that's a thing) to Joe. He trusted me since day one and we build up an incredible relationship over the years. It's actually incredible what Joe's do for the world of cycling. Great episodes guys!
What a great interview! Nowhere else will you hear this interesting insider knowledge of what really goes on in the manufacturing industry. Thank you.
Agree, they just took it to another level. Never ever would you get this amount of info and insight on GCN
Thanks for the mention CC.
Great insights again!
The SL7 S-Works was the WORST tarmac Ive ever owned and Ive ridden EVERY iteration since 2004 when they first dropped.
When I sold them both I warned the buyers they are a sluggish slow riding frame. They didnt care. They just wanted the hype so fair enough.
A durianrider video of the Chinese durianrider would be great content🚴♂️🙏😎
You’ve also been saying for years that the pro frames are different to what’s being sold to public!
@@BQS1234 I learned this in 1999 when I noticed Jalaberts bike was not a stock TCR. It was welded different. We rode back from Gawler to Adelaide CBD. Just me a mate and Team Once with the team car behind us down Main North Road.
Can confirm though that Lances OCLV frames were made stock by Trek and so were all the team bikes with the exception of his 1999 TT bike with was a Litespeed Blade painted with Trek logos.
The Nero Show knocking it out of the park again!!
Lucky to have guests come on and be as open and honest as Joe. Thanks for the comment BEM
Panda podium should have a voting system for paying customers to get things they’re curious about added to the site if they test well. Just like bicycle rolling resistance
Great idea! Will add to the site. Pre+launched we surveyed about 3000 people, we still have a whole bunch of those products still not up.
Super interesting, keep them coming, love how you guys bring cycling UA-cam together in one place.
Joe is such a trove of knowledge, and you two kept the interview very entertaining. Truly, the podcast that keeps on giving.
🙌🏻
This is absolutely fascinating, there is no other way to put it. Having the secrets "exposed" like this is exactly what the cycling world needs to hear more of. Instead of idle rumour mongering or random posts on places like Reddit, we get it from people who are actually there and know what is going on in these factories.
And for the record, I do not begrudge the manufacturers doing this - it's obvious that to compete, you have to rely on manufacturing partners in Asia. And you do have to place a level of trust in them, as well. However what you can not do is promise the consumer the same frame that Professional X or Y is riding in the Giro, at the prices they are demanding, and deliver nothing of the sort...
Amazing episode!
The country of China is lucky to have Joe... what a treasure trove of knowledge. Would love to see Joe do a brand breakdown of Western brands.
This is excellent. Best podcast you've done yet!
Joe was amazing to chat to, we'll certainly do another one at some point this year.
Bianchi top end frames = vietnam for the last 3 years.
Likely one of the most insightful cycling videos I've ever heard.. incredible stuff guys! Keep up the incredible journalism! This type of content NEEDS to be covered, whether it feels awkward or not!
We are barely halfway through the year but I’m nominating this episode as episode of the year. I’ve been a casual watcher of this channel but you’ve earned a subscriber with this. Keep it up guys!
Go Joe!! Working with Joe is such a pleasure and he is a very talented individual who cares greatly about cycling in general. Ride on!!
Ltwoo's boss being an expert for Sram and how to get around Sram's patent is pretty based
Brilliant colab lads. Usually wait till the following morning t when I’m out riding to listen. But after you and Jesse talking about the Chinese bike scene and how little we know, couldn’t wait to hear someone’s take, who is living there. Very interesting.
We have known for a few years the industry driven by major brands and sellout youtube channels like GCN, bikeradar, David Arthur and Cycling Weekly have been taking the piss but this just confirms it
Oh yes .. 😂
Such a great episode! Don’t overlook how much this guy is risking by talking about insider knowledge, much appreciated!
I'll try not to burn too many bridges, haha.
@@ChinaCycling Joe courageous, candid and professional, while respecting others, a very difficult line to walk but you pull it off 100%. Leadership and integrity are highly personal qualities and that’s why I’m confident PandaPodium is going to be a game changer in the wider cycling industry. You deserve every success 👏 retired CEO 👍
11:40 needs to be talked about more. The whole point of the UCI's rules is that what they race can be purchased by anyone. Having a special carbon layup to stiffen them and improve them completely undermines this.
I had a Saxo Team Tarmac SL3 - way stiffer than my regular S-WorksSL3
UCI is corrupt. Teams have been using different frames forever. My first IRL evidence was riding with Jalabert in 1999. His TCR was custom welded and made.
Sagan won Roubaix on a rim brake Roubaix that was never sold to the public. UCI makes rules for some and bends rules for others. Depends how much you will pay them.
I grew up riding road bikes in Beijing and all my friends are cyclists now for some reason. I worked at a industry company making cycling GPS and I like hanging out with people working at the factories (from engineers to painters). In our private group chats, we would talk about how Look makes special reinforced track frames for the Chinese national team and our painter friends would show us naked and painted frames a year before they were announced (the new super six, Cervelo Aspero, the new Tarmac, Aethos). We have a saying "Bike industry don't fool poor people" because they wouldn't fall for the marketing, but is that really true?
The bike industry fools newbies and unfortunately seasoned cyclists. Now when I say that, I mean an older person with a high budget, and little to 0 knowledge of bikes. Sure they ride a lot but an outside mechanic is servicing the bike..
@@jani724 I would add that from where I see it even experienced cyclists of many years can also be susceptible. Frankly knowledge of bike geometry, the importance physics plays, especially in correct bike fit, and a good understanding of bike mechanics are the only antidotes to certain parts the modern bike industry. Interesting how highly experienced bike mechanics are often critical of many new tech ideas or abysmal failures on manufacturing QC.
Guys, this is awesome! Congrats and THANK YOU for creating this podcast/talk show and having all these awesome guests to talk about whatever you are talking about. Really awesome stuff.
This is the most “behind the curtain” bike content I’ve ever seen. Awesome video. These are the things we want to know.
I rarely come in here and write a comment. This was such an amazing video, hats off to this one!
Very interesting, it's funny how things didn't changed after so many years. Kona used to do the same thing for aluminium Taiwan produced frames in the past...
Superb interview and chat with Joe. Really interesting. Thank you Chris, Jesse and Joe! Keep ‘em coming guys - this has to be my favorite cycling channel by far. 👏👏👏
Needed a "China Cycling Outttt" at the end. Super insightful guest and interview.
Fairly new to the channel, but you two have a really good thing going. A breath of fresh to hear honest opinions about anything bikes and not beholden to anyone. Just pure love for cycling and the cycling community at large. In the US, cycling and specifically racing is totally in the gutter. During the Armstrong years, every field from cat 5 to cat 1 and juniors were filled. It saddens me because my junior daughter is a n endurance track cyclist and this discipline is also dying. Yet, middle age men on $11000 bikes are everywhere. I own a Canyon Ultimate Rim and I love it. $2800 with Ultegra. I will be visiting Panda Cycling shortly. One question for joe, since most bike stuff is made in China, are the products from the big cycling brands just way overpriced for profit, or has the cost of manufacturing just gotten out of control? Keep up the good work boys. Love Jesse youtube stuff on training too.
As someone who has bought a lot of stuff from China, I found this very interesting. On a side note, most of the cyclists I know have never heard of Ali Express and think it's mad to buy from China,. They think its all cheap crap.
Sadly many are brainwashed by the big brands. Not saying they are bad, but often overpriced due to marketing.
So glad you brought Joe on. I know you guys have been pretty hard on Chinese parts. Good to bring someone in to talk about it.
Thought this would be just Joe pushing and promoting his brands but I learned so much from this. Cheers guys
Best cycling content on UA-cam!!!
Joe=❤
This is the best bike industry video I've ever seen and it's only been a few like 17min of a 1 hour plus video lol I've learnt so much like I thought Giant made everything on their bikes and wheels and we learnt they don't make the carbon spokes on their Cadex wheels.
Awesome video, so intersting, thanks guys and thank you Joe for your huge efforts. Just one comment, I buy Chinese products (I bought a Winspace frame and Lun Hyper wheels) because they are quality and cheap and I only buy direct from China. I flatly refuse to buy chinese marketed products from a local distributor. The whole point of their product is to be an alternative to local marked up distributors. Winspace is now stocked in an Australian distributor at a premium, such shame. If I can't buy from Winspace direct, then goodbye.
Joe was an amazing guest. We need more content like this!
In the tennis industry it was the same with regards to what the pros were using verses what’s being sold in pro shops. Babolat was sued over this and now on all their racquet header cards it states that “Team Babolat Pro players may play with a customized or different model than the equipment depicted.” Be glad to send you a pic of the card if you’d like. Honestly I’m surprised the bike companies haven’t had a similar lawsuit.
Thanks really interesting Ron, cheers for that info.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Let’s see what the UCI have to say about this in detail ? Wonder if we’ll get any meaningful enforcement of rules long on the books or just squeak, squeak……..I’m a 🐭. What happened historically is past what the UCI does (or fails to do) will impact the future
Great insight with so many interesting topics! Thanks a lot for this guys. This talk is really needed seeing where the industry is heading.
I absolutely love the nero show and look forward to the eps each week out of everything on youtube, but this ep especially was absolutely fascinating, Joe is an incredibly interesting guy. Love it Chris great work.
Someone recommended this video as thr BEST cycling interview ever. I was not disappointed.
I wouldn't think about it when your show started that I am going to love it so much, now couldn't miss an episode. Big Respect, thanks for the dedication!
Great podcast! This is the best content you’ve ever put out. We need more with China cycling please.
One of the best episodes ever! Good on you guys. I am happier than ever now with my Time ADHX.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video, especially when WindSpace was the subject.I purchased a G2 gravel bike and put all Campy Ekar on it ( Wheels,13 grouppo…a real sweet ride. Thx guys for doing this video.
Chris, Jesse and Joe👍🚴♀️🚴♀️😎
You've got to have a part 2!!!
I got the R5 Pro E-bike model that is sold by about 12-15 companies. The bike was built in China. I bought mine with the Ride 66 company logo on it from a seller in Hong Kong. I am overwhelmed with how happy I am with the quality of the bike. I have 5400 miles in 12 months. I have also lost 35 pounds.
Incredible, enlightening content. And good to know how things are shaking in probably the largest cycling market in the world.
Super interesting interview, thanks for joining the party Joe!
Regarding the idea that world tour teams increase the exposure of cycling brands, it was only 2 days ago that I realised Astana were on Hed wheels this year, and that's only because one of their riders crashed in the Giro. It's not a good ROI unless you're a title sponsor in my opinion.
Great guest and super knowledgeable! Really hope he will appear on the show again as I'm sure he has a lot of great information to share. Thank you!
A really good call and episode with Joe. Never had an issue with Ali express, just make sure you do your homework. Have 2 pairs of Winspace Lun wheels, one set direct and latest Grevil's from Australian distributor. Fantastic wheels. As Joe hinted, why not buy direct from the makers. Also have Elves frame from Elves Australia. Might have to change my name to Joe!!!
Very very interesting discussion here.. Thank you all for taking the time to put this out
This is for sure the best informative bike related podcast this year. Thx🤗😉
Can I just say the sound quality is awesome, for an overseas video interview? So much nicer than the next youtuber’s effort.
What an interview. How many times did Joe say "I could fill another podcast with this.." Need to get him a regular slot!! Love it.
49:06 mark - Mind blown!
Great job guys! Awesome to hear Joe's perspective and have already started building up my wish list of products from Panda Podium for a future build. Wishing Panda Podium every success in it's goals!
You Tube’s value is right here. Face-melting honesty, on parade. Thanks
I think there was one main point that was not discussed--many people do not want to buy products directly from China because there is no way to legally go after the company in a tangible way should there be a problem with the product. When there is no company formed in, for example, the US, people will be extremely reluctant to make a large $$$ purchase because there is no local support.
great interview! i like where Joe is headed. Keeping the sport of cycling accessible ensure its growth. You go Joe
After so much of the discussion being focused around value and the difficulty of competing with western brands I decided to hop on the website to see if I could help support the project. I was met with 90 dollar jerseys and cranksets over 500 dollars. Equally expensive (if not moreso) with none of the support or hands on experience that I could achieve by going to my local bike shop. Huge swing and and bigger miss.
Wow this was a fascinating interview, I don’t think the general public has gotten as deep a look into the Chinese cycling industry until now.
you mean THE cycling industry ;)
That was really interesting. This interview will make shock waves in the cycling community. A real eye opener on the the truth on high end bike companies and cultural differences.
Thanks Chris & Jesse for having the foresight to help clear the “Clouds & Smoke” about China and to Joe for his obvious wealth of knowledge everything China with Cycling. Hopefully with this the Prices of Cycling goods that blew up after Covid, Chinese cycling brands will get more traction to help bring prices out of the stratosphere.. Well Done guys!! Keep the interesting content coming. 🙏🏻
he really knows what companies are doing...ex... in taiwan... some popular brand dont have their own factories so they look for the factories that can manufacture their product ..for example the lcd panel..samsung, LG have there own factory for the lcd panel but if they cant meet the production quantity they pay other factory that can provide the panel .... there are many factory that can manufacture the lcd panel ... another example the GIANT bike...are not all made by giant factory...they also pay other factory that can provide the production for the giant bike...
What suprise to hear this guy saying the exact thing you were saying in the last vid about pros frames not being the exact same as the ones available to the public. One of the better and most relevant vids on UA-cam. Well done guys
What an incredible interview. I have no way to verify any of this info, but nothing sounds ridiculous.
Often here in the west, the great firewall and language barrier keeps us from knowing what the manufacturing world looks like in the east. This is a rare chance to peek behind that curtain and it is fascinating what brands have been able to do in what amounts to total secrecy.
Haha, everyone is free to take everything I say with a grain of salt. The only way I can "prove" most of these things is by throwing people under the bus, which is not cool.
@@ChinaCycling Hoenstly, that makes what you say more believable in a strange way and I understand the situation there can be... precarious. Either way, we appreciate the info. Being in manufacturing (not bikes) myself, I am just clueless to how things work in the east. Even though I know your sample size is 1, it is still informative.
Joe was good chatting with Peak Torque and Hambini but i think he was working for Winspace at the time but today he ws brilliant. So much interesting stuff.
who knew I was SO interested in bike manufacturing. great show. fantastic guest in Joe. chapeau
Love Joe! such an interesting chat.
Great guy! Hope to have him back soon enough
Great width and depth on Chinese cycling in this episode. I learned lots. Thanks Joe especially. I was just looking for a new mid-chainring on an Ultegra triple (10spd), and Wiggle/CRC/Bike 24 have less stock range now than before they got bought by an investment firm 2-3y ago. And then Shimano won't let them sell from EU into Australia, region market segmenting. Shimano Aust haven't had this Ultegra cog or a mid-cog for an XT 10 spd crankset 6-9mo ago. So a bit more diversification on the supply side can only be a good thing. Good luck Panda Podium.
The best interview yet. Learned alot
Ostro and Exceed aren't even remotely similar designs or layups, and geo is wildly different. They're produced on different lines at the same factory. But the finish and decals look virtually identical because the attached paint line likes to limit options - Ostro isn't even painted in Taiwan, despite what it says on the frame. Not quite sure how Factor get away with it.
great video. I watched from the beginning to the end. Just some friendly suggestions, you can probably break down a long interview like this into several sequences. This will not only increase the UA-cam watch rate, completed view rate, and average percentage viewed but also help expand the reach of your video to a wider audience
Sure 😊
That was just brilliant. Thank you so much for this interview. Was glued to the screen for the entire length watching from Germany. Legendary!
Great interview guys👍👍👍 BTW, love the Winspace brand, quality & products/wheels. Keep up the great work fellas.
The topic towards the end of questioning a future where China has a monopoly on the industry was fascinating, and I think another layer that should be considered there is fact that the production is already moving out of China to find cheaper labor. Does that culture of rapid business development still mean China is likely to dominate even as those industries are spreading and evolving?
That's a great point Witchell. I feel it's a discussion in general that warrants another look.
Very informative. One aspect of China's rise in bicycle manufacturing is its increasing share, perhaps dominance, of the work-a-day side of cycling components, previously the purview of Shimano. We're not talking about performance/competition cycling here. To wit, I'm not a racer but ride every day, have several bikes, all of which feature off-brand SPD pedals, chains, cassettes, chainrings, accessories, etc made in China. What the budding pros are presently discovering as Chinese production moves up the value chain should not be news to the rank and file multitudes.
Great show, very interesting chat. And yes , you must get him back on here!
One of the best interview/podcasts I have heard about this topic.
Thank you Joe and the Nero boys
What an amazing podcast. Huge insite into another culture. For anyone into international business, this is a gem.
What a great video from bike and manufacturer perspective. Once again you guys are killing with quality videos.
Excellent interview guys.. very insightful :) love the channel.. well done Chris
Love it.
Even people who watch this video, they will still continue to pay over the price premium brands 😅😅😅.
Joe is awesome at what he is doing. I bought the winspace because of him. I'm glad I did especially with the quality control for specialized during the lockdown. Big eye opener that. No wonder why the Aethos took forever to be released here in Shanghai. Anyways, happy with my rimbrake winspace SLC 2.0.
Looking forward to a follow up from durian rider. ❤❤
GREAT EPISODE, BOYS!
You guys nailed it. The future is up to who controls the raw materials. Since 3D printing is here to stay, then labor isn't going to be a part of what is the next best bike by price. That said, do we know what new metal is going to become the next best thing yet. A shift will come and with 3d printers becoming more available, imagine that you buy the materials and plans and make it at home. I like that idea.
Q for the next time - giving all those insights into Chinese cycling manufacturing, is it worth buying a bike from, say, Time or 3T, who approach carbon layups differently or just simply purchasing would be better?
I met an old chap about 3 years ago , who was long retired, but his job was to go and check the factories in Asia checking on controls for big big brands , he said they have 3-4 factories, they will often have a factory they send the controller too , which is all checked everything is checked and dotted, but the other 3 are well below board, he said he caught them a few times, but not often. He said to me from his experience don't be fooled
Wheel Top went live in the US for sales in early May. Fb and email ad campaign accompanying. The site went to "sold out" within about a week. Emails from the contact at the company website replied sort of evasively but talked about "launching" (again?) in the US with a SX variant. One can only assume they mean the fixed-battery version. Interestingly, ezbike in canada appears to be still selling the removable battery version. Interesting stuff, thanks for the additional insight, Joe.
This was such an absolutely fascinating interview. Fantastic work guys!!
The way he describes it makes perfect business sense for these major brands to outsource to china
Perhaps the most important question is how do the Chinese dispose all of the tones of rejects and of cuts? (The sea ?)
As for the workers they work unbelievable long hours and some never see their families for weeks or months. Not a good picture for cycling or 🇨🇳.
I am also interested in this as this is the more important "ethics."
Absolutely fantastic subject matter, presenters and clarity of many questions I've personally wondered about. Thank you for taking the time to make this video available.
I'm very interested in Joe's idea of a boutique component bike build, as I briefly explored a home build project but ended up buying a name brand due to the overall component costs. Although, with a recent bike fit, I'm funneling more money into the bike as the fit indicated that I need the stem and handlebars replaced to truly make the bike "fit" me rather than their mythical size 56 rider. Hopefully this kind of forced component replacement expenditure could be addressed/reduced if submission of rider specific measurements and or previous bike fit data could be submitted.
Nirvana, would be if the component inventory would be sent to an affiliated LBS which would do the actual assemble, assuming the purchaser can't do it all themselves (facing, lack of bottom bracket tools, ....). In Canada there is a 6% duty charge on assembled bikes parts (e.g. Wheels sets), which could be avoided. Six percent could easily go towards higher quality components.
Thanks RD
That was an extremely interesting chat about a lot of stuff that I didn’t know I needed to know about!! 🙏
Love it great show guys, a member of panda already.. ali express sensai in general. Had 2 groupsets the first one failed (the plastic shifter bits).. gave some trust bought the 1x srx pro , love it still goin strong on the gravel bike
newer campy crap plastic shifters often fail in a similar way.
Fantastic interview, I was really hoping you'd do this one. Fascinating discussion.