6 Bike Products That Shouldn't Be Carbon Fibre
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- What things shouldn't be made out of carbon fibre? We find out with Rob from Carbon Bike Repair: carbonbikerepair.co.uk
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His professional observations prove that some marginal gains are _too_ marginal, or at least too risky / costly
For everyone saying they've had no issue with their carbon bottle cages: consider that many component brands sell carbon-reinforced nylon bottle cages as "carbon" bottle cages. Small marketing difference, big actual difference!
What’s the big actual difference?
@@kylehagertybanana nylon and epoxy are both polymers but nylon is way more abrasion resistant, much less brittle, and a lot heavier
@@robbeelsasI've got very cheap "carbon" bottle cages. Actually now hoping they are carbon reinforced nylon!
@@robbeelsas Nylon and epoxy have the same density though. Maybe epoxy has much better mechanical strength?
@@robbeelsas Both are specific gravity just over 1.1, but typically carbon fiber epoxy composite is 60-75% fibre, as opposed to fibre-filled plastic such as PA6 (nylon) is typically only 20-30% fibre, as it can still be injection molded. From that composition, the shock, bending and abrasion resistance of the PA6 remains to a much higher degree and cushions the fibres more than a smaller amount of typically harder and more brittle epoxy (though epoxy resins blends can be designed for a variety of final properties).
I am terrified of my new carbon frame set now, thanks guys!
I agree on all points. I’d like to add carbon rails/base for saddles. It probably won’t kill you, but anytime I’ve crashed or had to put a bike down with a carbon-railed saddle, something would shred or crack or snap. Saddles are expensive and I’ve had much better luck with titanium or stainless steel rails and a plastic base under the cushion.
S-Work saddles in particular, they are beautiful to look at and comfortable…but no thanks.
Had a full carbon ax-lightness for over 5 years. It’s more comfortable than any saddle I’ve had in over 30 years cycling, and thus far no issues with durability.
Everyone talks about titanium but no one makes bikes out of titanium. No one works on those bikes.
@@kevinburke1325because it's not easy to weld search "oxygen embrittlement" also proper grade titanium alloys are expensive to get even in bulk.
I believe we should never make a submersible for very high depth out of carbon fiber 😂
Touché.
I came to ask the same thing
it failed because it was bonded to a titanium hull .. was not the fault of the carbon but the design was flawed
I hope you make it a thing to have Jimmi staring the audience intently for the last 10 seconds of every video!
Blinking 100 times! So funny 😂
Haha better he blinks 100x than zero - a non-blinky stare is extra creepy
time to run the nvidia creepy stare program
- new line of Jimmy sunglasses? super video, thanks
😬😬😬
This video is very informative. We, as consumers, are constantly pushed to carbon and should buy all things carbon, but most people are not racers and looking for the light weight everything.
Most riders who know I prefer aluminium don't understand why until I explain. I also feel much more comfortable riding hard on aluminium parts (excluding wheelsets as they're one of the only products I'm willing to ride carbon on).
@@yonglingng5640 yeah I avoid buying a carbon bike for the same reasons. I also recently removed all my carbon wheelsets in all my bikes and replaced them with custom aluminum wheels. I just don't trust carbon and having to always do a safety inspection on carbon parts once a week.
Once you ride on Carbon wheels and a good set of road tires, you'll never want to go back. The deeper the better. It's so easy to move.
@@BigBeezyBtown have 6 wheelsets all carbon...took them all off my bikes. I do understand the feeling is great. But I prefer aluminum for comfort and a little piece of mind not having to worry about micro cracks which I have experienced before
Yeah, a bunch of stupid wasted things out of carbon fairly stupid obsession. We cannot afford to waste planetary resourses like that anymore. We need MILEAGE !!!
What about seat rails?
On the whole we don’t have much failure in this area of the saddle therefore not on my top 6 list.
I guess you're probably not going to take your saddle to be repaired, you'll just buy a new one (unlike a hugely expensive frame)
Agree with all of them apart from probably the bottle cages. Had them for over 15 years and never had an issue. But to be honest they are probably unnessesary and you should just save money with a plastic one.
That's the only point in the video I didn't agree with. I have 2 sets of Bontrager XXX and RXL bottle cages that are on their 3rd bike and 10+ years old. Still good.
I have had a carbon bottle cage break on me. Depends on the design, this one had two 'claws' holding the bottle, they weren't joint in the middle and were really flimsy. Now I have different ones, accessible from the side, similar to Specialized Zee cage and they're solid.
Yeah, my carbon bottle cages have worked well on two bikes for 7 years. They are overbuilt and thus inflexible which may be why.
My carbon bottle cages have outlived 2 carbon frames. But, yes otherwise, I agree with all the guys points.
interesting, this was the only one i've had personal experience with...twice. Two very expensive cages both broken in similar ways. They can't handle bumpy roads and real world conditions. i think titanium is next for my cages
Carbon railed saddles, because in the event of a failure, I can't think of a place I'd like to get carbon strands stuck less.
Seconding it. Also, seatpost clamps: it's not that much weight saving, but risk of snapping is too high
@@feedbackzaloopIndeed. It's easy to underestimate the importance of an intact seatpost/clamp/saddle. I once had a clamp bolt snap (unfortunately it was a single-bolt clamp). I was riding no-handed when it happened. It wasn't good.
Stems. There is no point. Alloy ones are usually lighter too...
Cannot confirm this.
My darimo stem says hi.
There is if you want a one-piece cockpit.
The thick Zipp stems were excellent for sprinters. No alloy stems were as stiff as those. But yeah, regular sized stems alloy all the way.
I'm pretty sure my Thomson masterpiece is lighter than my enve seatpost I never weighed them but same with my Thomson stem it feels lighter than my enve aero stem
A guy riding a lightweight wheel rode into the back of my rear chain stay and his wheel completely collapsed sending him flying over his bars. I have never seen a wheel fold so easily!
😱
bikes ain't for crashin bud tellum to do better
You dont know how that wheel was treated Maybe it was bashed before Lightweight does not make cheap products that dont meet safety standards. Carbon wheels Carbon spoke have been around for years and years on road and MTB
@@jcerullo5015 I don't! But I know how well the guy treats his collection of bikes
holy shit man!
Rob is both a transatlantic road angel and a font of information
Having watched a few videos featuring Rob and his knowledge/experience of carbon, I think my next bike will be Titanium!
@@endercrafts9056 he doesn't say anything really bad about titanium, just that it isn't the magical wonder material that makes all your dreams come true, like many people think. It's just a metal with good weight/strength ratio that doesn't rust.
@@endercrafts9056 thanks, just watched his video. I think the positives he talks about tick the boxes for me. As an amateur rider I probably couldn't tell the difference between frame materials, but a strong, corrosion resistant and good looking bike sound ideal. Just think I would break a carbon one!!! 😂
Agree. I bought ti and I like it( Litespeed) but in all honesty it isn’t as comfy as good steel and mine rides much like my Allez Pro, Columbus al you min ee umm. But prestige wise on ride day everyone else is my bitch.
Titanium can be tuned for lighter weight and desired stiffness and resilience, but it costs more than straight gauge. Seven Axiom XX is a 1200 gram frame with carbon lateral stiffness, but it will last a lifetime.
Good choice , I have a Ti bike. It’s great for me. My Genesis equalibrium 10 steelie is a better ride but is heavier 10kg but Isa very comfy ride. My Ti is much more responsive. I wouldn’t have Carbon bike, they don’t last long enough for me.
I'm a bicycle mechanic as well and I have never used carbon fibre parts for myself because of most of those reasons ...and also because I'm a pretty heavy dude ... lightweight might be a nice thing but at those cost and risks ...not my cup of tea. I rather stick with high grade aluminium parts or titanium and feel safe .
Same here. Handlebars are one of the parts I don't want to go carbon on.
Reading the comments I finally felt good about owning an aluminium bike.
Yeah, but, carbon frames are awesome.
Yeah still riding Kleins. Same here.
Great content. Definitely that Specialized carbon balance bike. I'm not sure we adults need carbon bikes, but I'm sure kids don't.
As someone who likes Specialized bikes, I can agree the Hotwalk Carbon is a really niche product of theirs. The standard Hotwalk is already not that cheap for a balance bike.
The light weight is probably more beneficial to kids than adults but my kids vitus bike weighs like 500 grams more and has all the same features (inflatable tyres etc).
Just Specialized being rather special, as always.
Agree. This one says much more about the adults that buy them vs. Specialized though... "a fool and his money..."
The most definitive guide I’ve seen to the pros and cons of rim brake carbon wheels
If you know your descents and they don't have more than a few hairpins, and you don't ride in the wet then carbon rimbrake wheels are just fine! for really long technical descents in summer or winter riding i wouldn't risk it. i can choose my day and the 500 gramm weight saving IS important to me andi hate the maintenance of Disks. next bike will be with disks however!
The carbon front derailleur hanger reminds me of old-school bikes that had integrated rear derailleur hangers. The same issue came up (generally in metal instead of carbon) where you'd break the hanger and have to write off your whole frame. It just seems smarter to have all those mounting points be detachable.
Write off your steel frame? No.... just have the rear mech drop out removed and replaced. Usually you could bend them back easy cuz steel has a large amount of elasticity.
Becomes a fixed gear or single speed grind off busted hanger and use horizontal dropouts to tension chain. Bike is still a bike
I leared to braze!
Yeah. In steel you can just weld it.
@@rosomak8244 Braze! Welding makes the frame soft.
Absolutely true. I had a friend doing some mountain riding when he was headed down hill his carbon rims shattered. he's lucky he wasn't hurt. The wheels were destroyed. Thanks for your comments. Big AL
Carbon rims are not for gnarly MTB riders, even Worldwide Cyclery's Jeff mentioned this.
@@yonglingng5640people race WC DH and enduro on carbon rims, but I guess those aren’t “gnarly” riders
Rob is so knowledgeable and great at explaining! More content with him please!
Like which companies are doing carbon well!
I like how Francis still runs 11 speed di2 on his Scott
Now this is the push I needed to go to disc brakes. I've always known rim brake carbon wheels could be a potential issue. And being a big guy 100kg they're fine on the flats but on a steep descent... Oh boy. So I mostly ride flats. But the state of carbon drop-outs over time always intrigued me after seeing teeth marks in mine. Seeing those in the video were eye-opening. I was already leaning towards adding a disc bike to the rotation but this video has solidified the need to. Thanks Francis and Friends.
When I once removed a seized carbon seatpost from my carbon frame, I found loads of carbon powder.
Another thing - a simple Ass Saver can cut through carbon seat rails in about a year, especially if you go behind the saddle a lot.
Scott Spark frame link (2017-2021) on the World Cup frame would only last about a year because of the bushing sockets. I had it replaced by warranty twice.
I'd definitely run titanium rails if I cared that much about saddle weight, much more durable than carbon
Great comment, never would have thought of that.
I rarely say "x is the wrong material for" anything.
But for carbon seat rails I'll make an exception! That's trying to fit a good material into an old, bad (for the material) design.
Pretty sure someone will reinvent the seatpost/seat interface at some point. Then carbon might make sense.
All mine are metal of some sort.
Also - I would add carbon paste between your post and frame on every build.
Agree on most things but I have used Tune carbon bottles cages for at least 40000 km without braking them (but I did have an aluminium one brake after only a few thousand). I do have had luck with carbon rimbrakes but they did ultimately indeed delaminate after 30000km but those wheels were awesome (dt swiss) and I would buy them again but for discbrakes next time.
Yeah, carbon bottle cages will work just fine if they're designed properly and you only use bottles that are fitting properly. Aluminium bottle cages have the issue that when they start to deform, they'll get weaker over time and eventually break. Again, there is proper design needed for the specific material in order to make it work.
Yeah... Super lightweight wheels with super heavy brakes. Just go aluminium. It doesn't make that much of a difference.
I had mine carbon wheels with rim brakes for eight years and 10 bar tire pressure without any problem... they are tubulars. 🙂
10 bar. Yikes. I used to ride with 6.5, and that was with 23 mm tyres on fairly decent roads.
That simply means that you don't brake much. If you brake, they abrade, if you don't brake, they don't abrade. Braking in the wet is even worse. Some folk just have a riding style and routine that seldom calls for braking. That doesn't mean the inherent flaw doesn't exist.
well you have said it: tubulars! no side pressure on the brake surface. thats why the pros could ride multiple mountain stages without failure
I hear what you are saying, I think it depends on what you are doing. Race day stuff is fine, there will always be a place at the top of the sport for the lightest fastest solution. For all of us non-pro's who are not sponsored and don't replace our gear every season you do have to question needing carbon in a lot of examples given here.
Really interesting video thanks. I do have a pair of canyon ‘carbon’ bottle cages and they’re very good and strong. They don’t have the weave of conventional carbon so suspect they’re more of a composite carbon but as I say I can’t fault them. Had them a year so far on my gravel bike and they’ve not busted. Fingers crossed!
Resolved these issues by going for a full steel frame bike with discs - bombproof and cheap to repair if anything goes wrong.
For sure dude. Steel's combination of being heavy, expensive, and prone to rust is clearly the best.
British Ray Liotta really knows his stuff.
Strongly agree on the last part (about fullcarbon frames) of the video. As i work in the workshop, i see all carbon frames slowly getting eaten up. This could be provided by layering aluminium inserts into the frame. This is what i love about the older gen. carbon frames and generally about Storck bikes - i own 3 - they use alloy inserts on all of the contact points and on top of that, they manage constantly to build extremely light and stiff (and in my opinion also strong) frames.
The problem with bonding Aluminium (or as you call it Alloy), is that Alu and CFRP are on opposites of the galvanic scale. Alu will corrode over time when bonded to CFRP. So no the use of Alu inserts isn't the panacea, the solution is to not ride a CFRP bike. Stick to the Metals (Alu, Steel, Ti) they will last a long time and even several lifetimes if well taken care of.
@@triode1212 They should use something like 304 SS, which has a much smaller potential difference with carbon. It also forms stronger threads and is harder, which is better for surfaces that wear.
@@ConsciousBreaks or use a coating or plastic in-between to physically separate the carbon from the insert.
I was considering going for carbon spokes on my next wheelset… not anymore. Very interesting content you guys just put out
So you are telling me my carbon 12 speed chain is a bad idea 🤔😢
If your chainring only lasts for one longer ride, why should your chain do it any longer? 😁
What about shift levers? They are typically one of the first things to hit the ground when crashing, especially on flared bars. I'd rather have a scratched metal lever, than a broken carbon one.
I think it takes quite an amount of force to break a carbon brake lever. I haven't seen a road counterpart break yet as most of the force from an impact is actually bumping the dual-control lever inwards.
MTB brake levers, yes, I have seen and heard of those breaking. This is why some MTB riders deliberately undertorque their brake levers so that the entire assembly is free to rotate on the handlebars should they be impacted. Just tight enough so that it can't be moved by hand is enough.
They are replaceable
I like carbon levers because in cold weather, they don’t freeze my fingers like aluminum levers do.
Good vid. Well done. Hate Carbon spokes so much. He didn’t even mention the corrosion issue. Front mech hanger was interesting. Seen more flexy rivit ones snap into the frame than rigid carbon ones break.
Carbon talk with Rob is wondrous!!!!
I always thought bare carbon saddles were medieval. As for bottle cages, go with titanium; pricey, but they last forever, look good, and are light weight.
ma selle carbone d'origine, a tenue 1 an !
@@patrice169c'est peu...
Or just plastic! You want a bottle cage to be flexible, and strength isn't important, so plastic is the ideal material. Sometimes cheaper is also better.
@@jackroutledge352 or just aluminium
@@jackroutledge352 plastic is also a hell of a lot lighter than titanium.
Agree in almost all apart from bottle cages which I prefer Elite Moreo, steel, beautiful and very light. The other carbon part I would never buy is a handlebar.
This is really insightful and a really useful perspective to hear
Agree on all points. I guess carbon bottle cages might be workable with careful design, elastomer elements and such. But yeah, easier to avoid
I work with composites for a living and wouldn’t have a carbon bike for these reasons. I’m a bigger guy and around 18 stone and spend hours every week repairing shattered grp. It doesn’t start to fail and give you a warning, it just completely fails all a once.
Carbon spokes that are cured into the hub and the rim are a huge issue because if they break, the whole wheel is broken and its expensive to fix. There are wheel companies like Gulo Composites, Hunt and others that have replaceable carbon spokes. Gulo's actually reduce vibrations, create a truer wheel and of course reduce weight. These type of systems can be trued like a wheel with steel spokes.
Winspace has a new model coming up, I think it's called the Mega. (Taipei Cycle 2023 visitors can see it) The way the spokes attach to the rest of the wheel is being bolted onto the hub and held onto the rim with spoke nipples (like in their HYPERs). If one or more of the spokes break, you're actually replacing that side of spoke array, instead of just the broken ones.
Think of it like a Lightweight wheel, just a little more detachable.
I’m a mountain biker. My bikes do have a lot of carbon fiber components, but I have never imagined anyone trying to make some of the things you listed in carbon. You’re right, they’re nuts!
I did wonder about it’s use in brake tracks, as race car brakes use it very effectively, but that description of what can happen has put that idea to rest. Great video!
F1 brake raptors use a compound called carbon-carbon which is extremely heat resistant. Not make like our frames are made.
Carbon ceramic in car brakes is something completely different from the carbon fiber reinforced polymers bike rims are using.
It's always a pleasure to hear from the pros
I would love to hear Rob's view on the new forged carbon parts. Pros and cons, and what to have in mind.
This is just marketing for fiber reinforced plastic.
@rosomak8244 no it isn't... fiber reinforced plastics are those that can be injection moulded, the "fibers" are so short it's barely worthwhile (it *is* worthwhile, but the benefits are relatively small). "Forged" carbon (note - clearly not forged in the correct sense of the word...) uses non injection moulding (i.e. moulds and packing) and a very high fiber density. You can also layer in, or wind, extremely long fibers to provide specific characteristics. The strength and stiffness differences are vast.
Just both have a "plastic" material and a "fiber" material, but that's about as close as they get in design, process and finished part.
One point I’d like to say is carbon rim brake wheels done by Zipp have been quite good for me; however, being a fair weather rider probably helps tremendously!
My zips are lovely in the dry, rubbish in the wet
It’s actually funny how the guy says you will melt the carbon and if you’re fast enough you can let it cure again.
Carbon is bonded in a duroplastic polymer, once the resin is cured it’s set. Heat it up above a certain temperature and it will start to break down, it physically can not melt.
+ as far as I’ve heard, carbon brake tracks actually seem to wear out much slower than aluminum ones given that you use the correct type of brake pad.
@@Jonas_GD_1234yeah, guy might be simplifying for the audience... but it makes me question if he knows what he talks about.
Such good content as always. So easy to get hyped by the marketing. I heard a story of a guy in a race have both wheels completely come off from under him and he rode down a hill on his wheel-less frame. Wonder if he had carbon drop outs.
Another great, fast video. Thank you.
hi nice content! I want to ask abt carbon rims but with alloy brake tracks, would it help? or would it better to just stick to alloy wheels instead or even disc brake?
Cheers!
Carbon fiber rims need disk brakes that's the only option . Disk brakes are going to get lighter and we should be getting F1 carbon disks soon.
When I see "carbon expert" in title, I expect to see an engineer, not a person handy with epoxy glue and patches. I have made a few carbon repairs myself, does this make me an expert?
A really top video. Thank you very much. Best regards Martin
My carbon bottle cages by Xlab have been great. Super grippy cages when I got tired of bottles shooting out
I call rim brakes on wet carbon a “mere suggestion of braking”
haha!
fer real!
...say hello to sum step, wet hills!
try Bora with AC3 and you'll know it works.
They sound like a jet engine, but generally work.
The King Ti cages was are outstanding, very springy, excellent grip plus easy on bottles, unlikely to break and very light. I've had a pair on road and CX/gravel bikes for over a decade. I think Ti is the ideal material for cages, better then nylon, CF, stainless Steel or steel
Had the same carbon fiber bottle cages for 10 years - no issues. BUT, I don't abuse them.
Interesting points on all the other stuff. A BUNCH of design weaknesses I would have thought $4k frames would have designed out.
Time to check my old CF frame...might be closer to broken than I think.
The Jimmy stare at the beginning and the end is legit Gold meme quality. also, lovely video...glad I cannot afford anything carbon anyway!
Carbon handlebars and carbon saddle rails... Not the saddle body, the rails...
Be really interesting to hear Rob's take on the new prototype Sram XX1 direct to frame rear derailleur.
To be fair, given the articles talking about that RD, seems it's more like a RD with an integrated replaceable hanger.
@@shikaze66 yeah could be 🤷♂, would love to see what fail safe they designed to stop it being ripped away from the frame without damage ?
@@harveyjones1 Especially given that XX1 is a MTb groupset, and MTB RDs tend to smack into rocks all the time. I have 2 seasons on a Shimano Deore 12 speed RD and it looks like it's been through the apocalypse, but still shifts just fine
@@harveyjones1 the mech is built fully serviceable with replacement parts available. Each section, cover, motor, spring assembly etc is of a bolt together design, so you can replace only the parts damaged and not the whole component. The direct mount section is also modelled from their Universal Derailleur Hangar standard which has been adopted widespread. Bike brands will either supply Shimano with a UDH or SRAM without a hangar. It's both a smart solution and clever marketing. They still make money when a Shimano equipped bike is sold because it uses one of their patented components.
@@matt_acton-varian A couple of things: first SRAM doesn’t make licensing money on UDH. Second, just because the derailleur is rebuildable, does not mean you will be able to. I have two sets of SRAM 11-speed hydraulic road levers with bad master piston seals. SRAM has not made to the repair parts available for over two years now. It’s a complete scam. These expensive brifters are completely useless because of three tiny rubber seals that can’t be purchased due to intentional scarcity.
I've had a Bontrager carbon cage on a bike for a few years and it's been well used but no issues so far. I actually prefer the elite cages now as they are plastic probably polyprop and not much heavier than carbon.I have to say i wouldn't ride carbon clinchers with rim brakes now. I have still got a spare rim bike with carbon tubulars but it's disc for me these days.
As long as a bottle cage has enough material, it'll be OK.
I have used a few carbon fiber bottle cages and they do grip tight but too tight . the bottle is leaking in short time from the cage grinding away at the bottle every time its inserted and removed , the Fidlock and Fabric cageless bottle holders work the best and the bottles last a whole lot longer but not for everyone ..
Love fidlock, hate the fact I can't take a bottle from anyone else...
Carbon fiber handlebars and stems. Such a critical component that could shatter at any moment when the conditions are right. Don’t worry about the weight stay with alloy or if you got money go titanium
I had carbon handlebars and they used to flex ever so slightly under power; when I replaced them with an alloy handlebar they were pretty much the same weight
Not at all. So long as they are clamped at the correct torque, they will last almost forever. And they help reduce road buzz. Remember, CF has a nearly infinite fatigue life.
They are a bit of a nuisance on a mountain bike because you aren't gonna have a torque tool with you to readjust levers when you need to.
@@richardhaselwood9478 you're assuming that they are manufactured properly. Not always the case with cheap Chinese components.
The idea that carbon fiber can solve any engineering problem is ludicrous, but there are plenty of cyclists who would open their wallets for carbon fiber tires if somebody marketed them.
You bet carbon fiber reinforced tires would be a huge success...
The arundel carbon cages are great. Had them for years and no issues at all. The rest I agree with though.
Really interesting video - and ha at Jimmy, he'll get used to being upfront and centre in videos soon(ish)
Francis, can you ask Rob about the fragility of modern day carbon bikes? I remember in the past Canyon suggested that even a fall from standing point could destroy the frame and a lot of anecdotes are still circulating, but what's the current situation?
Hard to imagine that is the current state of affairs with a good bike brand. For example, GCN did a video where they tried to destroy a pair of Winspace wheels and rode them directly into a gutter at 45kph and it laughed at them. The frame on that bike I presume was fine as well, massive impact force vs just falling off stationary. 🤷🏼♂️
@@AlistairLattimore I don't want to believe it either but we all know that cycling industry has design and qc problems. Rob is the ideal one to answer if a person can trust its bike after a simple fall on tarmac with no visible damage. I mean, how many of us have an ultrasonic scanner near their city?
Canyon(crack) doesn`t have a good reputation in the industry :D Quality is below average and you are paying way to much for a D2C product. Don´t believe what the masses/media tells you.
@@Nico-jt8ll Canyon was just an example, I don't hold them in high regards or any other company in particular. But, other brands have given similar opinions. And my question is: do those opinions still stand, because a lot have changed (manufacturing, lighter frames, materials).
Hi guys. Mmmm Fragility on modern carbon bikes..we as consumers really want it all in a bike. It’s simply not possible so let me start there.
In the early carbon bikes the tubes themselves were too strong and too heavy but the structure was terrible and non-compliant. Now flip it to modern bikes and you have super thin light mid tubes but very strong structures. The older bikes might have been robust to a knock or two but believe me they would fall apart at the Bb because the structure was not compliant with the stiff tubes themselves. A company such as canyon have a rather interesting and aggressive approach. Super light stiff and affordable bikes but at the price of impact fragility. My advice is wrap these bikes up in cotton wool when handling or transport and ride the hell out of them on the road. A bit like an F1 car. I think you’ll agree that most cyclists who enjoy performance riding would have it no other way. My advice to cyclists who don’t care for that but want a hardy carbon bike is to look for the lower spec models with more weight in the frame.
Coming from a different sport background and surprised they are not making Carbon/Kevlar parts as you would keep most of the lightness, strength, and more importantly a degree of flex 🤔 Really interesting on how Rob explained each of the cases 🙌
May I ask what sport you are coming from?
@@shahirraeed Canoe Slalom
You dont want flex
@@gauthierperrod4958 Kevlar solves the breaking point/shattering issues when laminated with the strong rigid carbon fiber… Expensive? Yes. Tooling, laying up and machining is extremely difficult and labor intensive as Kevlar will always fray when cut and has different saturation properties. A lightweight combination alternative for airplane fuselages and Kevlar by itself is effective dampening for stoping bullets.
Sport background, not engineering background.
I have carbon/aramid (e.g. Kevlar) tubes here that snap just like pure carbon ones. It isn't the material that causes these issues, it's the layup and overall design.
Aramids have some nice properties, but can be a pig to work with. The one area we see them is in machine wound tubes where the process is well controlled (and the volume is large, which means it is financially worth getting right). Kayak paddle tubes may fall into this bracket.
And I have never quite got to the bottom of how many bicycle (and other) "carbon" parts are actually 100% carbon. Much composite engineering for mass market products uses a glass/carbon mix - which for a given cost/strength requirement is usually a better option. But it will be sold as "carbon composite" with as little as 10% (maybe less) carbon vs glassfiber.
You can charge a lot more for a glass fibre product if you throw some black woven laminate in there to make it look cool... you'll see that too.
Well that was definitely a video worth watching. Thanks. Prior to watching this I'd always aspired to get a set of Carbon wheels as well. Well it was an easier option than going on a diet !
1) Carbon wheels is not good for rim brake. Approx 65% carbon 35% polymer in cfrp. What happened when you add friction and rub the polymer? Cfrp is a structural construction, not suitable for friction application. Metal carbon composites yes for friction application, big no for carbon polymer composites for the rim brake.
2) Cfrp also not suitable for press fit bb shell but still acceptable.
3) Same to cfrp chainring tooth, not good for friction application.
4) Carbon spoke is good, stiff, but not serviceable (glued together) & expensive.
5) Bottle cage is ok with cfrp, non critical structure to discuss and less expensive too.
Exclude national and international racer, you can have the most expensive bike but still get dropped by someone who ride with Sora/105 gs.
Honestly the bottle cage one is great because the cheap plastic ones that you can buy never drop bottles but the expensive ones always seem to be a culprit
And now even the cheap plastic and aluminium ones are superlight and indestructible
Amusingly I had that exact plastic bottle cage on my bike up until the middle of last year when it snapped and I replaced it with the carbon version.
And just you watch, the bike industry is gonna come out with carbon disc brake rotors one of these days, just to combine the worst of all worlds.
With carbon rotor bolts. To save an extra 2g. Should be fun.... on the life insurance claim
carbon ceramic disc brake rotors are already on the market. A few years I believe.
@@nlfiets I think some small companies have tried experimenting with them but I'm not familiar with any that have hit the market in reasonable numbers. Carbon ceramic disc rotors have existed on the car side of things for ages now but the fundamental problem there is that even with thousands of pounds of car to slow down, it's difficult to keep enough heat in the brakes for them to work (outside of racing conditions), so 99% of the time the perform like shit. On a bike it would be even worse.
Had my rear mech do exactly that. Seat stay broke. Luckily was able to have it repaired😊
Carbon spokes are no more likely to break than steel. You can put them under massive tension and hit them with a hammer without breaking. The only down side is a harsh ride quality and cost. If your breaking carbon bottle cages you are buying the wrong ones, never had a failure. Had carbon rims with rim brakes for 10 years. No issues at all with modern heat resistant resins. Things break if you abuse them whether they be carbon or aluminium or steel. I've had three major failures over 30 years of riding. A steel frame, Aluminium handlebars, and aluminium rims. Never broken a carbon part even after some nasty crashes on both MTB and road bikes.
It's almost as if different materials have advantages and disadvantages depending on the application and that trying to make everything out of one material (i.e carbon) is a dumb idea. 🤯
If I had the money for a carbon bike I will buy titanium
I will slightly disagree with bottle cage. The most popular BC in pro-peleton is Tacx Ciro, cost around €15. I don't know if I will describe it clearly, it's a ground carbon from the mold, with plastic core. And there is a proper carbon fiber version of Ciro made from epoxy and layers, much more expensive. I'm using my set of cheep Ciro's for over 5 years, cause I love how they fit with tacx shiva bottles, which are in different sizes. And I'm using them right now on my 2022 Canyon Ultimate CFR :P
Yeah, that's not a carbon bottle cage. It's likely fiber reinforced nylon.
I really like my carbon parts. Even a carbon Chainring from Carbon-TI works brilliantly since 3 years and 30 tkm. I sold my lightweights only because of tubular maintenance.
Not one thing is totally and absolutely 100% true. All statements are so much exaggerated.
I crashed with carbon parts without broken parts so often. In the last one both plastic bottles where broken.
One thing i wont use in carbon is the rear derailleur. But this one was not mentioned. Good work! 😅
It would be interesting to see those carbon dropouts under a microscope. I would imagine that surface is tremendously degraded and that degradation happens on every single ride, even if your skewer is "tight".
The laminate is a lot tougher than you imagine. I have a full carbon front fork on a Cannondale CX bike - everything is one piece of laminate, from the top of the steerer to the bottom of the dropouts. When I first saw that, as I received it as a free upgrade thanks to a recall of the original carbon / alloy fork, I was a bit skeptical, too. But having ridden well over 10,000km with that fork I am trusting it a lot more than I was initially willing to give it credit. The knurled surface of the QR imprinted on the carbon surfaces when I first installed the front wheel, and that's it - it has really not visibly changed since then. Whenever I remove and then replace the front wheel, I do pay attention to letting the QR surfaces engage with their own imprints on the carbon dropouts in the same way they were before to avoid munching up the surface. It's a lot simpler and easier in practice than it sounds. :)
Entery level bikes. Don't try to make them in carbon, continue make them in aluminium. That is cheaper than aluminium dropouts on carbon fiber bikes and similar solutions.
Hey, good point. No one needs a carbon frame that weighs as much as a (hi-end) aluminum frame. Just a waste of money and material.
@@hymen0callis or a light and not durable carbon frame instead of a durable and abit heavier alloy frame.
That's a good insight into life of carbon parts, though be interested to hear Dov's take on the rim brake bit.
Another carbon bike repair guy Raoul Luescher (Luescher Teknik) also said they're dangerous. Raoul added some nuance that you can get away with it with tubulars (what the pros use) but manufacturers have had huge problems with carbon clinchers. Also lightweight climbing wheels (with less material and lower thermal mass) are the most at risk for overheating and failing when descending.
@@fortinbras47 And the irony is, the race courses where you'd be doing fast descending are the same ones where you'd be running the lightest possible wheels, because what comes down must first go up. Of course world tour pros are MUCH better at cornering than the average amateur road cyclist so use their brakes less, and are likely on tubulars if they're on rim brakes.
@@mrvwbug4423the key to fast descending (like fast driving) is using your brakes MORE, not less.
I started to use carbon stem and I can’t feel any difference from aluminium one, except that the price is 4 times higher for carbon one🤔
The other thing to bear in mind is that when carbon is used on surfaces subject to abrasion is that the fibres are released into the air and these fibres when breathed in are hazardous to health.
LOL. Maybe if you snort the powder. Not a realistic concern riding outdoors.
Carbon chainrings are quite prevalent on the track scene, but you don’t have the issue with cross chaining there. I’d be keen to hear Rob’s take on those.
You wont have a problem with any 1x carbon chainring
very informative, thanks.
I own (and have had no problems with, I must add) carbon parts that are clamped by something - these often worry me, ie what will the eventual failure mode be? I'm thinking of carbon saddle rails, carbon bars, carbon stems (though carbon stems are often heavier than their alloy counterparts!) especially where these interface with metallic clamping components.
yeah i've noticed that too. a lot of two piece carbon stems and bars aren't really a whole lot lighter than their alloy counterparts. 10-20g difference maybe.
so unless i'm going for a full integrated one piece, i see no reason to go with carbon. people are raving about the demands of stiffness from their stem and bar, so alloy is stiffer. its barely heavier. and its practically invincible. win win, right?
some people might go on about how its more compliant and dampens road vibration more, but i think that was an issue of the past. nowadays while we all ride 25 or 28mm tires (or even wider), or even tubeless, and tire pressures are dropping from 100-120psi back in the day with 21 or 23mm tires, to now more modern 40 to 60psi, we don't need to worry about road buzz travelling up that high in the chain of parts. in fact even 23mm tires nowadays with wider internal width tires, they are much wider inflated than they used to be (19mm internal width wheels compared to older 15mm's)
Submarines.
Very interesting video. I had no idea you could get carbon chain rings. A quick Google come up with a massive 8% weight saving, a cost of about £150-200 and you say they only last 100 miles! What a stupid idea...
Carbon-Ti's chainring structure is a carbon body encircled with an alloy ring with teeth. OK for climbers, but not the best for sprinters.
I remember seeing footage from a tour stage in Middle Eastern country, and there were heaps of riders popping tyres at one corner due to the heat.
There’s definitely been an increase in the use of cfrp in cages, which is light but still resistant to breaking.
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH ALL OF IT . l also question the use of carbon stems and maybe handlebars because if those fail it can result in permanent damage to me :( AND SINCE I STILL USE RIM BRAKES ONLY ALLOY WHEELS FOR ME TOO
Carbon stems are just a joke. Aluminum stems are sometimes lighter and also stronger. Carbon bars are a big no because you can't see under the bar tape if something cracked. Aluminum is perfectly fine.
Carbon wheels are fine if you use them on flat roads. Rim brake pads will easily do 20000km in such circumstances.
I had experience with my carbon bottle cage that snapped when i didn't notice that my water bottle was not inserted correctly, probably my fault but I'm not buying a carbon bottle cage again
Is it a very light model? (like, less than 10 grams)
I'd have to disagree on the carbon bottle cages. It all depend on how it's designed: if the cage uses the same design as a manufacturer would for a plastic or metal cage, then it probably won't work. But I've been using a carbon cage for years with varying bottle sizes with no issue. The key thing being it's designed in a way that it offers flex without putting too much stress on the material
He pretty much confirmed what I've always understood to be the case. Carbon fiber is a miraculous material and it's heroically strong, right up until it isn't. Once you hit its limit or compromise its integrity even slightly there's not much in the way of warning or de-escalation. It lives more in the instantaneous catastrophic failure realm. As such I think it demands a level of inspection/maintenance and care that most of us are just not up to.
Basic material mechanics. I am pretty much convinced that most cyclist knows absolutely nothing about that. And they should. Carbon is not heroically strong, it has better strength to weight ratio than aluminum alloys. but not that much as people say. Alloy frame will be aproximetly 400 g heavier than carbon one. It is roughy 30% of frame weight i know. but in the scale of whole bike is much less. And weight is seriously overrated imho. Alloy frame is much safer for me though by being less prone to catastrophic failure.
This is exactly why I just don't like or trust carbon fibre full-stop.
Wheels.
Agree with the carbon expert.
I’m not a fan of carbon nor do I own a carbon bike or component but , based on how the expert explains the pros and cons I’d trust his knowledge.
Hey Rob, can a carbon frame where the seat mast slides down over it be repaired if it is cracked? Thanks!!
Excellent video. Thank you.
Clocked 10000 miles on my Scott 20 speedster, not even a sniff of any carbon on it, still going strong, don't laugh, it's got tiagra on it as well, absolutly bullet proof bike, super reliable and quite quick now that it's go some Prime Attaquer wheels, bang for buck it is hands down the best bike I've ever owned, price new from KB cycles in Newburn in 2015 was £850.
I'm sure these guys do great and valuable work. But i have my issues with the first three points: 1. They say carbon chainrings can't cope with abrasion and then show carbon chainrings with bonded metal (Ti?) teeth... 2. Bottlecages can be made in many different ways out of carbon fiber. Many won't brake. But only because the 0.75g models will brake, you can't say all of them shouldn't be made out of carbon. (most "non-carbon" cages are made out of carbon or glass fiber reinforced Polyamide, not PP which is too soft) 3. Alloy spokes buckle and carbon doesn't. Okay, but for a spoke to buckle, the ones under tension need to have snapped/collapsed. in which case the 1.8mm alloy spoke won't be of any help when being loaded axially. The theory is correct if you leave out the context, the real case makes no difference for the rider. Especially if the rim has collapsed, the thickest imaginable steel spokes will be useless.
So I’m taking from this - back to old school frames, box section rims and who needs a bottle anyway?!
Yes 1000 times yes! As a product engineer I also get so annoyed by all the carbon marketing crap.
I also did carbon boatbuilding for about a year and a half (profesionally) And with everything I learned there about carbon, combined with my general knowledge of bikes, I prefer to stick to aluminium or steel for most bike stuff.