What's Wrong With Conversion Therapy?
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- It turns out, conversion therapy is bad. But that doesn't mean that "line of LGBTQ population go up" is good.
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#LGBT #LGBTQ #TransRights
@ShortFatOtaku
Dev, I'm sorry but I have to disagree, I think Euphori tori was on the right track. I'm assuming that in this future both treatment options (HRT/Transitioning and the Dysphoria Pill) are freely available. In that future most trans people would still prefer to transition, and a smaller minority would take the pill.
I'm transgender myself and I've given this question a lot of thought. Lets say that me at 16 was given the choice between transitioning, or taking the pill. That version of me would still have chosen to transition. However, I also acknowledge that the possible person that took the pill is also inherently me. They are both versions of me, but the difference is that I want to be the version of me that transitions. You could argue this desire of mine is because of gender dysphoria symptoms, and it is to an extent, but I disagree and this is why.
Everyone has the ability to conceive of a version of themselves that they would like to embody. Maybe it's just you but smarter, or, more diligent, or more sociable. When you actively try to become that person, or act in ways that person would, I believe you in some ways create meaning. You have chosen for yourself who you want to be and acted in a way to display to the world who you are, how you desire to be perceived, what ideas and beliefs you assent to. You define yourself through the actions you take. This is my closest idea of what the meaning of life is, the act of defining yourself and your beliefs.
The ideal person I conceive of in my head is female, I don't understand exactly why, it could be because of gender dysphoria, or my social upbringing, or the internet But I don't think that's the only reason, I think I have an intellectual or rational desire to be female too. Since I rationally desire to be the ideal version of myself, therefor I should transition to become as close to that ideal as I can. I think that even on that pill these desires will remain to some extent.
Sorry for the muchotexto, thanks for reading if you did.
so, you can parse the identity death argument with religion very well. if you go to a muslim and ask him to convert to christianity, he won't. he has his beliefs that he is set on, and the christian will be the same. if you tell the muslim, okay, if you could go back in time and alter the past such that you were always christian but otherwise still you, he will STILL say no, even though if he DID say yes, he would experience no real problems, he'd still have belief in SOMEthing and still believe in it just as much. the point being, we always privilege where we currently are, even if moving to a new place came with a different mind-state that allows you to privilege your new location.
this is the main reason why a lot of people don't like change - not only do they not want to change, they also don't want to grow to accept the change after it has happened, either. they want their current selves to be crystallized. the problem is, that's just not how life works.
you have transitioned, therefore you will never privilege an alternate timeline where you took a cure to keep you cis. and that alternate timeline you who remained cis, will never privilege the current you who is trans. and that's normal. if such a cure existed, almost no person who has already transitioned will take it. but it will likely be normalized to give it to young people.
and if the identity death question REALLY bothers you, to the point that giving it to kids is still too far, consider this: a solid hypothesis for the source of dysphoria is hormone imbalances in the mother during pregnancy. if we gave all mothers shots preventing these imbalances, there would be no dysphoria, and no trans people. in this example, the identity death argument isn't applicable because a fetus doesn't have an identity to be changed, and the original cause is being prevented, not tinkered with after the fact.
at this point, there's no identity death argument, and the only possible objection is that you just want trans people to be a type of people that exists, at the expense of the health of those individuals.
@@ShortFatOtaku kinda based
@@ShortFatOtaku Also liberals dont consider fetuses to be living people. So we might as well inject the mom with hormones to shape the eventual "human" that comes out of them.
I doubt it
You've fixated on being trans as if that were the right thing to be regardless of the circumstances. It's like someone wanting to remain a quadriplegic because they cannot imagine being different to what they are.
This is like the deaf community being against implants because it erased the deaf community
NGL I thought you meant breast implants at first and got very confused XD
Just imagine all the bigotry directed to the _dead_ community. Can you believe people don't want to allow the dead to vote?
This exists by the way. Every group has their chauvanists.
Each time I see the word "community" to describe a group of people with very little in common besides what their physical traits/disabilities are, I lose a smidgeon of my sanity. Each day it degrades bit by bit.
@@theabsolutechadlad5457 The "autistic community" would drive you mad. How about a "community" of mentally disabled people whose mental disability is literally an impaired ability to operate as a community? Always a strong contender at the Irony Olympics.
Nothing says "I'm boring and insufferable and being trans is my entire personality" quite like the statement "I wouldn't be me without gender dysphoria."
"I wouldn't be me if I ever listened to what others had to say"
More accurately, I wouldn't be who I've become without it. You could snap the dysphoria away and I'll be much happier for sure, but it left a permanent impact on my personality and I could never be truly happy in the shoes of a man, even if I'm no longer uncomfortable in my body.
So, while I would definitely take the plunge to cure my dysphoria, it wouldn't mean I'm no longer trans.
I don't think I can agree with that. It will undoubtedly have a big effect on who you become, and because it's bound to occupy a significant bit of your mental space, it is without a doubt something that, without it, you would be a significantly altered person. Same thing with ADHD and other mental problems.
Your statement is true only about what could be called transtrenders. Those who actively CHOOSE to be trans because they like the aesthetic and the rebellious queer sensibilities while also pretending that it was never their choice; they model their lives around passivity.
Hell, I'm sure Dev wouldn't have been the same without video games and I sure as hell wouldn't be the same without heavy metal, but at least those are interests that we on some level chose and actively pursued, rather than just act as though we were born that way.
Well that’s true, it’s a part of who you are because it effects your life every day. Why gas light yourself?
@@viljamtheninja As someone with ADHD, imma have to press X to doubt on that one chief
OP's comment is pretty well said.
Do: Find ways to empower yourself in spite of or even because of your disability.
Do NOT: Make your disability your identity. It's a toxic and unhealthy mindset.
Ah, nothing like making illness, disability and misery a fetish. Love to see
The infinite resilience of the human spirit
If somebody told me their was a pill that could with 100% effectively cure me of autism in a single dose.
I would take it without regret, would love to be free of this shit
That's what you get when you start protecting so much the oppressed than pretending to be oppressed becomes an advantage.
The more trans people I interact with the more Im convinced many are cases of unrestrained kink. People who basically threw themselves down the slippery slope of internet porn.
In this case, it would seem "fetish" also means the religious definition.
I had this argument several times with ultra-left progs on Reddit about the trans and non-binary characters in Star Trek Discovery. In a world over 1000 years into our future that’s leaps and bounds ahead of where we are in terms of medical science, the idea that if they could detect and treat transgenderism, either by making your brain align with your body or vice versa before you ever knew there was a problem, it would be cruel NOT to do it. The idea that you would force someone to experience gender dysphoria because of some misguided idea of “trans erasure” is very much an argument of our time and not one based in logic or least harm principles. It would be like being able to detect and correct spina bifida before birth and choosing not to because it would be erasing those people, it’s an insane worldview. And it leads me to believe more and more that for a lot of the so-called trans community, it’s an aesthetic or a fetish and not a legitimate medical issue.
It's really none of the above. These people have never been hungry a day in their lives. They don't have any problems and so they make some up for attention. And like Dev said, as far as politics go, they are another easily manipulated political bloc because (clearly) they are very emotion-based, and will vote whichever way they're told to.
It used to be that transition was a last resort treatment.
Yeah exactly, that's what I've thought as well. People don't seem to consider the possibility that people in the distant future will have a completely different understanding of the human biology and neurology than our own, and will approach treatments differently. It's like being someone who has survived the Black Death in the middle ages and trying to wrap your head around the concept of viruses/vaccines.
Why would you ever go on Reddit for anything but porn?
The idea that the non-binary fad would still exist hundreds of years in the future is ridiculous.
>taking drugs to alter your state of mind is immoral
>Smokes an ounce of weer every day to mellow out
Weed? Those MFs want to liberate ALL the drugs. They think being a crackwh0re is a valid life style.
"Weer" lmao
Also, aren't hormones considered drugs as well; and hormones are proven to alter your state of mind too? Liberalism/progressivism really is brain rot.
Weer
fuk dawg ill smoke whatever
Kweer
These people call asking trans people questions “conversation therapy”.
these "people" call asking questions "conversation therapy." because they are fuking retards.
"Maybe you shouldn't go through life-changing surgeries at 16."
"Death to the heretic!"
anything but uncritical support is genocide to them
"Shun the non-believer"
@@k96man Shame! 🔔💩
This whole thing reminds me of an episode of "Law & Order" where they investigated the murder of a deaf girl. Come to find out that there were parts of the deaf community that were seen as "better" or more authentic because they were born deaf compared to those that became deaf. Once Coclear implants were made available and deaf people started getting them, there were those in the Community that saw it as "Deaf Genocide" because it was taking people away from the Community by offering them the chance to reintegrate with the wider society. In that episode, she was killed because she made the choice to get the implant.
I think this argument was also the basis of "X-Men 3" and Rogue making the choice to be cured of her mutation being seen as denying her "true" self when all she wanted was to touch people and not kill them.
It's this same mentality and it's just as stupid. They, in those marginal communities, have power they wouldn't have in the wider society and don't want to lose it by allowing others to have the choice to rejoin the wider society.
I remember that episode. Good example.
Idk if using X-men as a good example despite the seeming similarities there is a legit one.
Especially when it's a series about super powered Mutants (Oversimplification, but still.)
Comparing disability based community stuff to that is imo abit of a stretch to me.
(I get roughly what you comparing on the "true self" and whatnot thing, but I just think that was abit of a silly comparison.)
"Noooo stoooopp! You can't treat your disability/mental illness, that's literally genocide!"
*Proceed to murder people who want to use said treatment*
D A M N.
@@darkzeroprojects4245 Are you willingly ignorant? The example was specific mutation with quite adverse side-effects. I get that seeing that you wouldn't be able to make that point, but wa it worth ot?
The fundamental issue with the woke view on transitioning is that they view it as an identity issue, as opposed to a medical one. Their ethic collapses the issue into a simple question of whether you validate trans identities or not. Curing/alleviating dysphoria is not the ultimate goal, but a means to validate trans identities.
That's probably the most accurate and succinct way I've seen it stated. It's about normalizing. Basically everything the social marxists do is to normalize.
Part of it is a sense of moral superiority they feel at not recoiling at things others do, part of it is reveling in irritating others, and part of it is to normalize as much as they possibly can in order to create an ever broader set of marginalized groups who will back their efforts.
Let me fix this for you quick
The fundamental issue with the woke view is they view everything as an identity. There goal is not to fix the issues but validate identities surrounding issues.
Exactly, and it makes it easy for many people who just seek to follow trends to hop on and act as if they have gender dysphoria when they don't, but the left will still defend them.
Exactly... is it an immutable characteristics if you can choose to be apart of it... and are there no perverse incentives for getting people to spend the money to transition?
@@areliablesource7733 I like how people made the "I identity as an attack helicopter" joke... but them people actually ended up making bird and demon pronouns... like 😒
lol the fact they take an honest question as some kind of slight is clear evidence of their own mental state/self opinion
No, its just a sign that they're human. Most people in the world will become highly emotional and combative when certain topics are brought up. We all like to think of ourselves as more rational than the 'other guy', and none of us actually are.
@@godsamongmen8003 While I agree, there were plenty of examples of people either straight up blocking Dev and not responding vs a few actually trying to engage, all on a sliding scale of spite imo
@@SouthernGothicYT Fair enough, some people are definitely worse than others.
@@godsamongmen8003 For all intents and purposes, it's categorically untrue to say that NONE of us are more or less rational and we all have the same level of rationality. Some of us are more rational, some of us are less. Those people might be rational on some aspects and not on others, but the way they appear here hints that they are not.
@@godsamongmen8003 it's important to take into consideration the narrative that is drilled in this demographic's media. "They hate you, they want you gone, they'll never accept you".
I'd say that this level of paranoia is a consequence of both, the emotional and mental aspects of their condition and a whole lot of propaganda.
I think it's funny when people think being trans or gay is an interesting thing about them, get a personality.
I know a girl who is gay. Except I didn't. I've known her since I was 2, and only found out 24 years later when I met her girlfriend. She (The original friend) is awesome
Tell that to Christian’s and Muslims who says gays should be stoned to death. Lol the irony of heterosexuals saying this as if ur kind didn’t normalize religions calling us abominations.
What's wrong with the new one?
@@sirosagaming8228 I don't know her well enough to say
@@KyriosHeptagrammaton well, at least what red flags were set off to make you think?
Curing cancer will make me no longer a make-a-wish kid, that’s literally genocide of my dreams.
@Rorikani Man, tribalism really is hell of a drug.
@@Depressed_Spider buckets and crabs right there
@Big Brain Nii-san That reminds me of Mr Beast using his millions to help the blind see again. That side of the internet went bananas on him.
Based
-Taking drugs to alter your mind is Immoral.
-Drinks a cup of coffee to speed my brain up.
-Drinks a bottle of alcohol after a long days work.
-Smokes a pipe to stop stressing out so much I can't sleep.
-Takes ibuprofen to stop back pain
Yeah, we've normalized taking pills to treat depression and anxiety for decades. Taking a pill to treat dysphoria would morally be no different.
Meanwhile these mentally ill idiots are taking a cocktail of medications to treat their laundry list of mental issues
I’m autistic and I find the whole idea of keeping me this way as stupid, if there was a pill to make me have normal thought patterns then I would want it. I feel that the idea of transness being cureable similar to how one would treat schizophrenia, OCD and other mental disorders. Yes there will be less of these people but would they not be happier with themselves and reality?
Like that movie with the pill that makes you super smart? If you got rid of the massive side effects, I'd take that in a heartbeat, and that would be a huge change. I can't imagine trying to keep something like that away from people with autism just to protect the demographics.
I personally think the autism spectrum has some good traits, but i see nothing wrong with people who want to get rid of the condition (or more realistically, dulling it to the point of being 'normal'). If someone would be happier without autism, they should be allowed to remove it if they can.
I get what you're saying, but I still think there can be some benefits to having alternate thought patterns to neurotypicals - they may add new ideas to the discussion table which were less likely to be considered and free speech would be further expanded. If a pill existed to turn neurodivergence into neurotypicality, and autistic people wanted to take it, that's their business. But I don't think we should be pressured one way or the other when the free choice exists. It should depend on what traits we prioritise most.
I think that autism is both a symptom and cause of a level of "intelligence". There are, of course, plenty of naturally intelligent people that are either only barely mentally ill or not at all, but like a couple others have said, I think that just taking a pill that makes a chronic issue magically away isn't the way things should work.
Might just be a religious type of viewpoint, but it's like that idea of if someone offered me a way to instantly have immortality or no longer be paranoid, I wouldn't take it. I wouldn't mind working towards a better mental state through fixing my lifestyle, but that's about my limit.
but like A Person said, if someone wanted to take that pill, I probably wouldn't stop them.
I view it that way as well. In fact I think it's delusional to think that more people having a mental illness is good in any sense.
i saw a video of a trans woman saying that her life is pure pain because the artificial vagina is like a wound, needing constant care so it wont close in some parts creating infection, she was saying this while crying a lot. i see a lot of posts describing trans people regreting removing parts of their bodies 5 years later and they are really depressed when saying this... so yeah, this culture is a big no to me.
Yep as they get to around mid 20s deconversion is gonna get more common along with suicides.
Living in a delusion is great till reality hits the bigger the delusion the stronget the whiplash
There are also people in severe pain due to back surgeries or knee surgeries who regret going through with them. We shouldn't stop having these surgeries because some people regret them, we should help people be informed about what they're going through with and let them make their own choices. And as more people go through with it, we learn more which helps improve the quality of future surgeries.
@@hagoryopi2101 but with transgender surgeries the purpose is to create something that isnt in the "genetic recipe" of the body, so the rejection is sure to happen, and i understand that some people are 100% choosing it. basically your sexuality become a war against your own body.
@@hagoryopi2101 wtf?
One of these things is not like the others
These are the kind of people that would answer the question "How would you feel if you had not eaten breakfast this morning?" with "but I did eat this morning."
"That was a rhetorical question."
"And I gave you a rhetorical answer!"
“Why are you so oBsESsEd with the contents of my stomach?”
This reminds me of the "all gender bathrooms" in Dead Space Remake.
My first reaction was, "300 years and no one has researched an anti-psychotic? bathrooms was the best they could do, uh?".
In current year, I doubt very much anyone is even researching this subject.
The fact that said bathroom has a hanged corpse in it was so fucking funny NGL
Reading Dead Space and anti-psychotic is the same sentence was like a slap to the face
@@kingsadvisor18 Anti-Psychotics are a medical treatment, the medical tech improved in the time between now and then so logically it would also apply to that treatment
@@aredjayc2858 the entire plot to Dead Space is the Red and Black Markers sending signals that mutate dead bodies and alter the brain wave patterns of the living, causing mass psychosis like hallucinations and paranoid schizophrenia. I get your point, but you gotta admit the irony of a world with better psychological treatments being plagued by eldritch brain rot
Russia of all countries is researching it I heard. Make of that what you will.
I guess I should stop taking my fluvoxamine to help control my OCD. Apparently, my real self engages in ritual compulsions to alleviate the anxiety produced by intrusive thoughts. By working to control it, I cease to be myself. Who knew!?
At some point it will be trendy to have compulsions and perform rituals (we've already seen that a bit) and everyone will switch from saying that they have gender dysphoria and start saying it was OCD all along.
@@UnluckyFatGuy I'm not a betting man, whatsoever. I'm very risk averse. And yet, I'd be willing to put money on your prediction.
Shortly after that, it'll be trendy to hear voices, and anyone who doesn't is some kind of freak that experiences periods of silence. How could we understand proper social etiquette, when we don't have a voice to criticize us or to talk with?
@@UnluckyFatGuy Wearing ailments like a badge of honor is what young people do.
In another comment thread, someone pointed out that there's a growing community of people who seem to be autism-trending. (How it's cool to be autistic and encouraging it.) These people are like vampires looking for new victims when the corpses of their latest victims have been sucked dry.
Dev, i suffered from gender dysphoria for about a decade. It's been years since I've had strong symptoms, and the only thoughts i have are very mild, under times of extreme duress. I did not transition. The notion that we can't authentically change our thoughts, self perception, ideology, etc., through conscious effort is absurd. I have some formal ability to read and understand medical literature/scientific studies, and the brain differences study is just bad - there's no indication that a "trans brain" is anything more than a person believing they are the opposite sex, in the same way that a smile changes the appearance of one's brain to seem happy. It is possible to change the brain to match the body without drugs, at least for the majority of people (im trying to be charitable). I did it through a lot of therapy (emdr, cbt, dbt), meditation, studying the stoics and buddhism, and simply putting a little effort in every day to accept myself. In short, I realized that I don't have a typical man's mind, but because I am in a man's body, I can only be on the "spectrum" of maleness, no matter what I try to do to change that. Gender is a spectrum, but that spectrum begins and ends with ones biological sex. Accepting that fact let me embrace myself, which helped me embrace my masculinity, which put my gender dysphoria into remission/cured it. I have a feeling there are quite a few people like me, but I could be wrong.
Whats funny is Magic Mushrooms literally do force you to "Think Differently" They cause the brain chemistry to switch to creating new ideas and thoughts, which is why they work as a Psychadelic, but more amazingly under studies it shows that this effectively "cleanses" the brain of deeply rooted thoughts, one of the big ones being Depression.
Puberty hit me late and my first menses were a horrible shock. Sure, I'd learned about those changes in school, but somehow, I'd never made the connection with those lessons and the fact that I was a female (and thus bound to experience this).
I hated everything about this phase. Breasts are a nuisance when you want to sleep on your stomach, run or even just DRESS as you want. Creepy old dudes in my village started making comments about my looks that spooked me so bad, I stopped going places I knew they'd hang out. And don't even get me started on bleeding like stuck pig with cramps bad enough you need Midol to survive the next several days (for context, I've had an inch long wood splinter rammed underneath my big toe nail while renovating; I removed it eventually and kept doing my thing; no pain medication was necessary).
All of this happened about 40 years ago. Back then, there was no talk about possibly being trans - if this happened now, I am certain, I'd have been told I had gender dysphoria. I don't think I ever did, I never wanted to be a man ... I just didn't want to have an adult female body at first.
Being left to my own devices (and frankly, having no other choice), I figured things out bit by bit. Exactly like you, I learned what kind of human being I am, experimented with being more compliant or less with societal norms. Heh, there was a period where I really, really went all our trying to fit in - interesting times.
You are not alone, friend. Though we are not the same, we seem to have some shared experiences of how complicated gender is.
I really hope people who don't want to transition can benefit from more research on the field.
I actually really connect with this post, as someone nearing their 3rd year of transition. I feel like medical transition has ruined my health, and I feel I'm at a point where I'd do anything to be able to live a healthy life. My doctors that illicit my hormone therapy seem to have no real care to the intense malase that I feel, all the things that seem to be wrong. It's a constant brain worm, as I'm someone who cares deeply about healthy living and longevity. I feel completely thrown to the wayside, ignores by anyone who claims to be from my camp. What am I to do, ya know?
There’s different reasons people transition but it sounds like you had this emergent issue as an adult. I think the trans community needs to take this seriously because there’s people like you, people pretending to be like you, but also people with a different type of dysphoria that they’ve been experiencing since they could remember
The use of the UN's definition of "genocide" has become a serious pet peeve for me recently, because the definition is so vague and loose that you can quite literally call "putting on a condom before having sex" an act of "genocide." Not to mention how it defines literally every war as one of genocide.
I mean you could also say that the term "protection" in the context of birth control makes you also think of who they don't want to breed.
Don't forget, what's happening in Zimbabwe and Africa is somehow not genocide, nor what's going on in Xinjiang region, but TwAnS GeNoWzIde is totally completely real.
@@BichaelStevenswhat happening in Zimbabwe? I’m not familiar with the situation over there.
Yes, I got the point after the WNs went crazy with the UN goalpost shift.
Keep things back where they belong, where -cide is Latin for murder, and that is all there was.
and the muslוms in the UN will keep it unknown@@Misclicking_orc
I heard from these people is that they don't want what they were feeling -- gender dysphoria, but here is a pill that stops it, and they complain.
You gotta understand that they don't want to be fixed, they just want to be forever victims.
Honestly i dont think for a lot of these people gender dysphoria is the actual mental illness that happening. Ive met sane level headed trans folk but its rare.
Then theres the narcissistic paranoid wackos screaming at trees. I think theres something else going on with them.
They also get crazier as theyvtransition
Well if they had real gender dysphoria they would want a cure because as it stands, transitioning _is_ the cure
The person who said “I wouldn’t be me anymore”, do they not realise the only reason they are who they are is because an illness has warped their mind.
There are people who say that children who are born deaf or blind should not be treated, because they would no longer be themselves. They prefer that children be permanently disabled, and never have the option of a normal life.
Such people are fundamentally wicked, and fetishize "being different". They don't want anyone to just be normal, they think that "normal" is counter-revolutionary.
They believe that leaving a child who could be cured to be disabled for life is important to raise revolutionary consciousness.
Some people with personality disorders can't necessarily imagine themselves without it. I think it's a mistake to reduce yourself to that level, but JayExci made the better sane version of that. She would be a fundamentally different person than the one speaking now so it's not hard to see how it is erasing the version of themselves they know.
I used that excuse to avoid taking antidepressants for years. "If I take these, then I'll lose my depression, and I am who I am because I'm depressed." It's like someone defining themselves by the fact they have cancer or a tumor. I didn't end up taking them, exercise and sun exposer has alleviated it, but I still sought out a cure. I hope these people can do the same.
@@Anon15297 these difference is that with ODD you learn to cope with it. There is no cure.
Crazy people don't know they are crazy, they can't even comprehend it as a possible truth.
All conversion therapy is good by definition, it's therapy after all!
lol arch you're going to make it worse
lmaooo
@@ShortFatOtaku I didn’t think this was the therapy you've been putting people into for years.
You goof arch🤣🤣🤣
Based?
Good to know that this video has been DEBOONKED by the totally unbiased trevor project! Thanks UA-cam for thinking for me!
Supporting child murder to own the libs
Did anyone discuss antidepressants? I know it's slipping out of living memory, but in the 80's and 90's when a new generation of antidepressants came out, led by Prozac, they were like a magic pill, effectively treating a shocking high percentage of people with depression. A lot of people found it very scary because someone who had been suffering their whole life might suddenly turn around their whole personality.
In fact, a number of people (off the top of my head, Susan Sarandon was one of them) were actively campaigning against these drugs following the death-of-identity logic.
The logic has an interesting end point. What is Soma but "pills" for nonconformity, and if we accept anti-depressants at face value, where, exactly, do we object to something like soma?
The trans advocates have a ghost of a point here in re the over-pathologizing of human behavior and how, especially with the more primitive depression meds, it can feel incredibly forced and you can feel "not yourself" under their influence.
But I'm giving these particular people way too much credit if I don't also say that none of them have thought this far ahead and I'm making the argument just because there is a baby in this bathwater.
@@harleymitchelly5542 Soma wasn't really a conformity pill though, it just made people chemically 'happy' and complacent.
Honestly I really don't trust depression drugs because I've heard a lot of bad stuff about them but I don't think my opinion matters because I've never been suicidally depressed. How can I know if it's good or necessary?
@@enclaveherewhyisntyourvide3089 1. It amounted to one. Basically turned the whole society into a set of Skinner Boxes for the various people to work in, with Soma as the "reward" for the various citizens for doing their stuff. If it wasn't, it might as well be for the purposes of this argument.
2. Go find a reputable therapist and talk with them. I will be extremely blunt about this, the last opinion on anti-depressants you should trust is one that comes from a UA-cam comments section. It's complicated, highly dependent on your physiology and kind of depression, and anyone who would be definitive here begs a few cuts from Hanlon's Razor.
It's one thing to not personally take the antidepressive pill yourself. But to actually campaign against them so other people wont get the necessary help is straight up evil
@@panem1901 As much as I'd want to just go whole hog into some of those criticisms, especially since scientology is involved with that and there's a whole store shelf of canned worms being opened, the time period should be put into perspective before we go labelling people outright evil. (Except for the scientologists, for obvious reasons.)
Psychiatry, by virtue of being intimately related to psychology, is dealing with higher margins of error compared to treatments of a more physical ailment, and when anti-depressants go wrong, they tend to go spectacularly wrong. If this is the 80's and 90's, you don't have the benefit of 30-40 years of study backing you up. It's also really hard not to describe an anti-depressant pill as a forced feel-good pill without it hitting some primal understandings of authoritarian control. It's also possible to craft out some hard to knock down ethical concerns, not impossible, but hard, that the person taking the pills can no longer organically reject the pills if indeed they, in a "sober" state would not want them anymore, and people back then might have had some lingering knowledge of, say, Germany kinda sorta accidentally getting everyone hooked on meth in the name of helping them.
Now, to what degree the actual substance of the objections back then holds water today I won't comment on. But I would say that we shouldn't be so quick to call people evil when psychology really wasn't doing itself many favors in the time period the OP was discussing. There were well-meaning reasons to object to the proliferation of anti-depressants back then, even if they were not wholly rational or have since been deboonked.
You'll have this issue with most groups of people who have a trait that is genuinely undesirable. For example, I'm pretty sure you'd be accused of genocide, if you for example, cured blindness in a way that eradicated blindness from the world. What you're running up against, is the idea that "I am this trait, before I am a person," This mentality results in people defending things that actively make living harder, and then accusing people who aren't willing to accomadate as bigots.
The only thing I’ve seen people put before themselves are their community and their religion. And I’m pretty sure transgenderism falls into both.
MRR. BEEEASST
@@pepperonipizza8200 Yup, but I’d say it’s gone beyond just surface religious comparisons, though. They’re more comparable to straight up cults.
I’ve known very religious people that have often put their faith before their own selves, but they have allowed other things like love or their health to come first (even if they say they put their religion/God first).
There is often a balance. There’s room for mistakes. They follow the religion, but they aren’t solely remembered only for it.
It’s kinda’ comparable to most trans people who don’t follow this activist shite or revolve their whole life around being such. They have their own personality and allow themselves to make mistakes to learn and grow. They know when to put it first and when it can take a backseat.
Then ….. there’s the cult-like types where there is zero room for any mistakes. It’s this or that, no in between.
Every waking moment is dedicated to whatever they’re worshipping. They go out of their way to push it onto others and cut off contact with those who don’t fall in line, even friends and loved ones. They often appoint “leaders” (influencers) to speak up for them so they can follow and manipulate others (“lost souls” or young, confused teens) that are going through hard times into choosing their path. If you don’t stay in line and parrot their every belief, you’re ostracized or told you’re not apart of the community. If someone from the “outside” speaks out against the beliefs, then they’re dogpiled, gaslit, and harassed by the group with some wishing to do physical harm.
They spend all their time online talking about it, feuding with people over it, they seek out conversations about it to insert themselves into it to “inform” others much like how diehard religious followers do when it comes to the topic of religion as a whole. They have made their entire personality revolve around being X/Y/Z and nothing more, and somehow that’s seen as a plus due to how consumed they are with it all. They’re always quick to imply others follow cult-like mentalities (like following “societal norms”) but are completely oblivious to the very own blanket they’ve wrapped themselves up in …. only ever being known as _that_ type of person and nothing more.
The parallels are wild.
@@flameyoshi07 Blind genocide
@@ffff7164 and no one bats an eye
I've read stories about deaf parents in the "deaf community" often don't like their children speaking and try to enforce their sign language, because they want to perpetuate their community or don't want to feel abandoned by their child.
Not sure how true it is but it reminds me of their responses
Has a degree of truth. Usually, it is fringe crazies, though.
I was molested as a child. As a result I was sexually confused for a very long time... I have no one to talk to about it... My teenage years were held as a result... I didn't figure out my sexuality until my early twenties because I was so damn lost. I desperately craved someone to talk to and figure this out with but with one aware that I would not be respected. When you're confused processing with critical thinking it's necessary but no one uses critical thinking any longer... most of these so-called trans people have sexual trauma that reversed their sexuality... This is well-known in psychology. It's a defense mechanism. But you can't speak of it? Evergreen psychology and I'm a counselor and I'm consistently disgusted with the lack of therapeutic value in most modalities
Hey brother im super glad you stuck around and found a constructive outlet for your pain. Im really sorry no one was there, i know how hard this stuff is. Just know you arent alone. Im a whole vet that played with c4 and grew up in grouphomes and such. Have my friends crack jokes say i look racist as shit lol.
But....i know that pain you arent alone. I really am sorry brother
I'm sorry to hear about that, but I do agree there is a lot of evidence towards that. In school, everyone I knew who was trans or non binary, were a mixture of really big or really skinny, Sexually harassed or assaulted, autistic, and lonely. It felt like a hate for their body and a desperate cry for attention, to feel special, to ditch their sexual identity, their body, and try feel better.
Yeah fucks your brain up. Hope you are getting better each day, mate.
What modalities do you favour as a counsellor?
There are some people who will fetishize the problem and reject every solution.
7 year old boy: I’m a girl!
Parents: No, you’re a boy.
*CONVERSION THERAPY ATTEMPTED* 😮😮😮 🚔🚔🚔👮♀️👮👮♀️🚓🚓🚓
20 y.o. with severe bpd and body dismorphia: "I hate myself, please give me hormones and chop my dick off."
Therapist: "Are you sure this will help?"
😮😮😮🚔🚔🚔👮♀👮👮♀🚓🚓🚓
If you looked up what actual conversation therapy looks like as reported from the people who have done it, you wouldn't be joking around. Unless you are a psychopath.
One of the first things I was told when undergoing treatment for my mental illness (OCD), was that I should not, under any circumstances, incorporate the illness into my identity. Because as long as I base my sense of self on my illness, it WILL control me, and I can't believe I have to say this but if you suffer from an illness *you are SUFFERING* from that illness. It's not a lifestyle choice, it's a terrible, horrible burden you must struggle against for life. If there was a pill to fix my genes and cure OCD, I'd pop it in a heartbeat even if it meant dumbing down by 10-20 IQ points (there's a strong correlation between OCD and heightened intelligence).These people clearly have centred their entire being on their 'trans-ness', which is probably why they consider any questioning of that identity as a literal attack. Without that as a crutch they are a hollow shell of a person, and would be forced to confront the emptiness that lies inside of them and come face-to-face with that most hated concept: personal responsibility.
Also, I think the one caveat to that 'room of 50 straight/gay people having equal value' is if the value you're measuring is reproductive capacity. Any other metric and yes you're completely right, but not on this one specific one. Again, I can't believe I have to say this, but the existence of heterosexuals is vital to the continued survival of humanity as a species. I once had someone argue with me that a 'turkey baster and a cup of sperm' was all that was needed to 100% replace reproductive sex, and I didn't have the time nor ability to refute that level of stupidity.
TL;DR
-Mental illness is an *illness* and curing it is *not* bad.
-Heteronormativity *is* important so far as producing new humans is concerned.
That IQ bump is showing, lol!
@@613harbinger316 I will take that as a compliment. XD
@@t.k.5844 hell yeah!
Couldn’t agree more with the necessity of heterosexuals. That is the only way a society/civilization is able to continue. With the current trend of marriage rates plummeting and childlessness on the rise, it doesn’t really bode well
wait till you hear ab gays and lesbians reproducing with eachother. Lol heterosexuality truly is fragile huh
Does medication for schizophrenia change who the person is?
Or does it treat a mental condition?
Schizophrenia, sadly, as is, is uncurable, and personality of someone on and off pill differs a lot more that the closest severe mental (affective) disorder - bipolar. And antipsychotics are terribly toxic. Usually patients don't follow the schedule and take pills for life because of side-effects and, sometimes, costs. Or their symptoms of having weird ideations and not having any clue of time persist. Absolute majority of people with two disorders I named would be happy taking pills for life if their heart or/and kidneys and mental capabilities didn't suffer so much and physical prowess, usually, too.
You know it's going to be a good video when youtube has a "mUh CoNtExT" stapled to it and dev starts it talking about expecting to be banned from twitter
edit: the "this would erase who I am thing" is probably the most coherent argument you'll get in favor of trans people (at lease that I can think of right now, my brain is currently rotting from work and the twenty seven hours worth of Morrowind memes I've been binging these last two days) because it appeals to the logic that the person you are today is shaped by your prior experiences in life as an individual. The fact that it doesn't hold up when applied to transgenderism goes to show how "being trans" isn't actually a mental disorder but just a little bit of the sheer delusional levels of protagonist syndrome many on the more vocal side of the left have (same probably goes for the right as well, but they've all been unpersoned off the internet lol)
double edit: I also find it tragically hilarious how each of these losers claiming that simply asking questions is genocide when i know for a damn fact that anyone who asks questions of them would be put against the wall in seconds. Probably sent to camps as well, because it's alright when not-Germans and not-Americans do it, of course.
Interesting, here in Europe I dont see shit, stuff like that appeared only when Korona was a thing, I guess they do it specifically for USA, kinda makes sense.
I don't see anything like that, I'm in Japan atm
@@Zonca2 it's a link to a trevor project article about conversion therapy
Aren't delusions disorders though?
They get very defensive when you bring up using medication as a way to help those inflicted with dysphoria saying "What about the symptoms! They could be worse!" Not realizing many that go through reassignment surgery suffer from depression and are prescribed medication for that which has the not-so terrible side-effect like giving one the energy to commit suicide -Along with HRT patients have a much higher risk of causing cancer.
A lot who suffer Dysphoria who are being pushed aside for the Trendy trans would probably love a pill you take to make you feel comfortable instead of the insanity of "Just start cutting stuff off!" idea. They're mostly terrified that their "cure all" that can cause more damage, could be replaced and they'll be seen as no more then what Goth once was. A fad, or more over - Something they can used for power.
Ive put this type of hypothetical out there many times in group chats etc and it always gets me in trouble. And I am trans.
Another one that ive been trying out lately is.... if society was perfect and everyone got the same upbringing, would there still be trans ppl? This one has also got me in trouble.
There's nothing wrong with conversion therapy. I put myself thru my own "therapy" of exploring what is male and what is female and i genuinely tried to live as my birth sex despite knowing otherwise... but here i am today, transitioning.
one idiot that i didnt cover said that because gender is a social construct, if gender were abolished then trans people wouldn't exist. that also implies that you can construct a society where everything we know to be masculine, would be feminine for them, and you wouldn't be trans there
didn't demon mama tell you? gender is an aesthetic just look at some cubism or something, boom, dysphoria gone your aesthetic sensibilities have changed.
@@ShortFatOtakuThen abolishing gender would be equivalent go genociding trans people. Somehow.
@@ShortFatOtaku my favorite was the psycho who said there is & always will be a defacto state of war between cis & trans people.
That was a special level ideological lunacy.
My real question is, how much of it is just a knee-jerk reaction to such concepts because people are afraid of change, how much is just political reprisal, and how much is just following THE MESSSAGE.
It honestly seems like many in the "trans community" are just scared of thinking deeply about stuff. Like this isn't peoples lives, and their happiness, and its some sorta sports team.
Hope you're doing good by the by, and stay strong!
as a wise man once said "just donated to the LGBTQ community, I hope they find a cure"
“Okay, but how would you feel if you didn’t have breakfast this morning?”
Best comment
i get it
Can already see breadtubers seething and calling you several different is and isms to describe you in their thumbnails.
And these are just thumbnails. Imagine seething and molding in the videos
What you describe would essentially be the ideal, Star Trek type solution. And transition, HRT, etc. usually don’t fully cure gender dysphoria, they just reduce the symptoms to a tolerable level.
Amazing bait. Exposing people for their lack of understanding to not only trans issues, but in having a logically sound political belief. Good shit dev
I'm impressed Otaku. As a practicing therapist this topic is a landmine. I've personally met both. I would never conduct "conversation Therapy" but in a way encouraging transition is truly a different form of "conversion therapy". We need to be truly careful with each and every client and what they seek when discussing "conversion".
Since medically transitioning has a host of medical problems attached especially when concerning minors, wouldn't it be better treatment to try psychotherapy like cbt on them first or at least if they are under 18 and reserve gender transition for the most extreme cases that do not respond to the therapy and are suicidal?
Again, forcing someone to dress or act a certan way is not what i mean, i just mean that they would be able to manage the dysphoria and no longer need to transition.
@@dragongamer4753 yes, it's always concerning when the parents are more motivated than the patient.
@Jack Greene and of course the child to please the oarent goes along with it... my mom told me to think for myself when I was younger, so I by the time I was in highschoool was making my own decisions, when asked about what I wanted to do I came out with what I wanted to do and my mom hadn't even know what it is I was good at or even wanted lol.
@@dragongamer4753
Gender transitioning is ireversable past a certain point. Surgery is the point of no return and, if I'm not mistaken, too much of the opposite hormone actually cannnot be reversed?
I might be wrong about the last one, but yeah.
Ahhh, nothing like kicking the hornet's nest to see what they look like.
It's like playing with thermite and matches, innit?
Dev was cooking with that Tweet
Also dev you need to make an episode about Vaush's "queer genocide" narrative and how dangerous it is. Vaush has claimed on multiple occasions there will be a queer genocide in the future.
There is a really good video to be made on that topic & the fringe right who reinforces the snake oil Vaush is peddling.
@@AspiringDevil Is it the doomer politics video ? I don't remember him talking about Queer genocide. I know a righty wing youtuber named Ubersoy had a video in the works about this topic but I don't think he ever made it.
Also you act as if the trans side and the fringe right are equal. The Trans side is a the clear establishment. Basically every billionaire and big corporation supports Trans rights activism.
@@doomdimensiondweller5627 that's not what I meant. I said certain elements within the right make it easy for Vaush to sell his narrative.
No do not think nor do I believe I implied they are equal. While I disagree with it being a universally large corporate supported
I meant I'm agreeing there is a good video to be made on the topic. I think it would be valuable show someone vulnerable might fall for the narrative.
I respectfully disagree about trans rights being the establishment. If that where the case there wouldn't an argument & going on right now. It would already been secured & enshrined in law.
@@AspiringDevil Can you find me a single big corporation or institution like a university that disagrees with trans right's activism explicitly ?
Also another question. Can you find me a big corporation or institution that goes out of it's way to empower White people and White people specifically just for being White ? I have seen so many people say that but I can't find a single example
@@doomdimensiondweller5627 I definitely can't do the white one. I could think of a few dmall institutions that maybe do if you squint. Lol
As for trans probably but rather than I having to try & fail to do research because Google blocks my links. Let me clarify what the misunderstanding might be. Virtue signaling doesn't mean anything. You will see large companies Virtue signal about trans people constantly but they're actions can't really be called support to any meaningful degree. Now I'm not saying they're arnt any & they're is definitely more than white power corporations but I don't think that makes them as accepted & powerful as your words imply. Once agian if it where so unilateral the issue would already be solved & you wouldn't be seeing anti trans rhetoric on TV, Cable News, & political ads.
I love that the youtube mandated fact check definition can one for one be used to describe transitioning and not just untransitioning. Its the same thing, but only one is bad. Only one is bad and its the same thing. Right.
I just want to say as a person on the spectrum that if a permanent and safe cure existed I'd take it right now.
As a person with ADHD, I would take a cure in an instant with no second thoughts. I am not a cool outsider, I have a disorder that I do not want.
Cures for autism have always been about making your autism less noticeable to other people, completely ignoring your mental health.
So it is likely you will be worse off with the pill, but appear cured on the outside.
@@schwarzerritter5724 Silence yourself you copypasta.
@@schwarzerritter5724 Masking isn’t a cure and your logic doesn’t apply the the hypothetic of the discussion.
Irrelevant!
@@schwarzerritter5724 But the hypothetical isn't about masking. The hypothetical is that if there was a cure for gender dysphoria (pre-established that it already works in the supposition), would there be a problem with people taking it voluntarily?
I guess we shouldn't treat depression brought about by brain chemistry imbalance according to these people
To be fair anti depressants have bad side effects although the ideal antidepressant wouldn’t have any of the side effects.
@@frogjupiter thats why testing is important
4:34 Imagine posting in your bio that you received severe childhood trauma
I've been saying the same thing as you did in your first tweet for years. I'm and MD and clinical researcher. The plasticity of the brain maintained throughout life in relation to the body makes it the preferred treatment modality in addressing GDD. Surgery exists at the present as a palliative measure and is frequently unsuccessful and has poor outcomes.
“ Surgery exists at the present as a palliative measure and is frequently unsuccessful and has poor outcomes.”
Even in the best cases it still the “We have that at home,” sex organ edition.
Do you mean a type conversion therapy when you mention the plasticity or something else? I'm curious what the research has revealed on the effectiveness of either in treating the dysphoria.
@Der Rikmeister I'm referring to the brain's ability to adapt and restructure itself. Neuronal plasticity is the mechanism by which neurons can allow the brain to adapt to changing conditions including stroke and aging. Such plasticity is vital to the successful treatment of MDD with SSRIs for example. The brain has much greater capacity to adapt and rewire itself than the body has to be rebuilt with surgery.
@@Aamakkiir94 I see. There's also your use of the term 'palliative' which I've always associated with end-of-life, pain-alleviating treatments. I would surmise, given your response regarding plasticity, that you see therapy as superior to surgery when it comes to gender dysphoria. Does that sound right? Do hormone therapies have any effect on neuroplasticity?
@Der Rikmeister palliative refers to treatment modalities that are intended to relieve suffering. While often associated with hospice care, lots of treatments are primarily palliative, especially if they are not curative. Gender affirming surgery does not cure the dysphoria for most if not all patients; efforts are needed to determine proper surgical candidates who will derive substantial benefit from the gamut of surgeries rather than applying it to all. Non surgical treatments have theoretical benefits, summarized by my reference to brain plasticity, but are largely unexplored. Yes hormones have effects on brain plasticity, but that topic is much more complex and nuanced that I can summarize in a fair manner in a UA-cam comment.
Interesting topic. My default position was just to dismiss it as a snake oil "treatment" that was simply barbaric to those involved (edit i haven't watched the video so i may have misunderstood the topic at hand)
Remember. Washing your hands was dangerous quackery not to be engaged in by respectable doctors.
@@NoPantsBaby but washing your hands work, and its demonstrable.
@@ianduarte1992Hindsight is 20/20, we now know what would have brought that about.
@@ShermanistDruid thats not how this works.
We have ways of accurately testing efficacy of treatments, even psychological ones.
Propper sanitation works, we know why, how and we can quantify it.
Conversion therapy doesnt pass the test even remotely, no matter wich standard you have for "working" conversion therapy, as it stands today, doesnt work, and theres a lot of data that shows that, and virtualy nothing that contradicts it.
If in the future a new method thay actualy works and that wont give you fifteen different disorders is found then you can say that it works. But it wont be hindsight since it would be a new thing.
Got it?
That's not engaging with the hypothetical
"I would have no moral issue with sharp objects dancing very close to your windpipe."
Uhm. Surprisingly, most men don't. It's called having a shave, and they'll even pay a decent chunk of chance for a proper one.
Two reasons I prefer doing it myself.
I find it very telling that UA-cam liked to the Trevor Project as their "anti-misinformation" thing. At least with Wikipedia they don't exactly have a stated baseline political or social incentive. Speaking from the viewpoint of someone who is pretty conservative, I would find it just as out of place if UA-cam linked to TurningPointUSA.
@@sneedmasters I know they actually do. More so it's that Wikipedia doesn't state their political aim outright. To a normie linking to Wikipedia would at least appear rational. That might actually make it more insidious now that I think about it.
Pretty much every "pro trans" charity I've ever come across is either a front for money laundering or a tax/charity fraud scheme run by scumbags of the highest order.
Dev missed a really big thing that was shown in a lot of his examples. A major theme in academic/extreme left ideology is that society is bad/broken in some fundamental way and the norms of our society uphold it. This is why so many of them immediately jumped to pointing out Dev is cis and boring. They were signaling to the rest of the cult that Dev is an upholder of norms. This is also a level deeper into thought process of why they consider more queer people a net positive.
I actually think the reason a lot of people on twitter were not abiding by the hypothetical is that many of them were likely using a qualifier for trans people that did not require gender dysphoria. Mind you, I don't think they would have an argument against it either way, but I think them thinking you're eliminating a person's sense of self, as argued in said hypothetical, instead of a mental disorder compounds on them thinking the hypothetical in of itself is immoral to ask.
This reminds me of a comparable shitstorm in the deaf community; when the professional victims among them complained about treatments or next-gen hearing aides (don't remember which) that were able to essentially cure deafness - and the complainers were up in arms because this would mean that "deaf culture" would disappear. You can't make this up - these people would prefer deaf people not being cured (regardless of what they want) just so they can persist in their delusion that by virtue of being unable to hear, they are participating in a sublime and noble culture worthy of being preserved at all costs. Pure crab bucket mentality.
You can't have a revolution without disgruntled, resentful, miserable people. It's of more value to a revolution to maintain people in this state than it is to heal them of it.
If you ask someone a hypothetical question, and their only response is threats of violence, it usually means that they know they have no argument, and it scares or upsets them.
I work in a particular branch of mental health intervention. The stories I could tell you...
It is certainly a mental health related invariably tied to prior diagnosis that are often brushed aside.
You should look up the blind and deaf genocide arguments. They are basically the same as as the trans genocide, but the flawed logic is much more
8:08
As an autistic person,
YES
PLEASE
FUCK
I WANT TO BE "HAPPY" and "NORMAL" Without seeming phycopathic and creepy- I want to be able to FOCUS all my ideas onto my STORIES or onto WRITING or exsisting- PLEASE GOD FUCKING FIND A CURE I B E G Y O U
I respect Tori's argument and agree with her and you. There should be a pill that can do what you say. But at the same time people like Tori should have the ability to decide if they want to take it or not.
I think Dev should have emphasized choice in the original post. As leaving that open to interpretation combined choice of language was distracting from anyone who doesn't already understand the premise he has in mind. The other mistake is Dev was a little quick to troll people who gave a straight answer of no. Which further implied its not intended as a choice.
It was a very interesting cancer thread. I had a few good convos in it.
@CODBO3RGM3 Agree!
True
this should be a good watch just based off the title and the length :D
are you trans gothic? almost every woman-lookin person who watches me turns out to be lol
@@ShortFatOtaku no I'm just ugly
@@SouthernGothicYT don’t worry your not the only one
@@SouthernGothicYT You ain't ugly, grill
@@SouthernGothicYT
You got nice hair and makeup.
the reason they don't like the pill idea is because when they think of dysphoria, they place the issue within the person's body, not within the mental rejection of that body. they value the expression of the "pure self" more than anything - changing their perspective would be seen as an attack on the true self, when we "should" be focusing on the real problem, the fact that their body doesn't match their self-expression.
Honestly when it comes to things like my depression, ADHD and autism. I would cure those on a heart beat.
In fact I wish there was a magic pill that did this stuff.
The "it would change me as a person" argument reminds me very much of the argument people tend to say about ADHD medication and so on (often people that don't actually have ADHD) for why they wouldn't do it. The argument is that "Oh but it makes people special and it makes a lot of great artists and creates unique people" and all that. It's less interested in people that just don't want to deal with feeling like shit all the time and would love a way out of it.
But I don't think your argument that "Oh your personality changes all the time so that doesn't matter" really holds up; personality changes gradually over time due to your life experiences and choices, but it's another thing entirely to chemically turn yourself into a person that would make different choices, that alter your entire path in life, rather than just being part of the natural changes of life. Like with ADHD medication. That doesn't mean it's a BAD thing, but it's far from the same thing as those natural changes.
All that said, this video boils down to the simple but brilliant idea: wouldn't it be great if people with genuine gender dysphoria could CHOOSE whether to transition, or whether to be rid of gender dysphoria?
And about your "addressing the point of contention", I think people's moral outrage (although they failed to express it very well) comes from the fact that you failed to specify that "it wouldn't be immoral if it worked AND were consensual." I mean they'd still be pissed, but that would make your argument clearer I think.
what I DO think is funny is that many of these same people that had a problem with the idea of a sudden change of personality are probably not only OK with, but actively endorse the use of hormone birth control for women, when it's well documented that the pill does LITERALLY exactly that, causing women to feel sexually attracted to an entirely different type of person than they do when they're not on the pill.
I feel like a lot of these arguments stem down to a spirit/body dichotomy, which is a religious precept. And I agree with it by the way, just not the part about the bumbling god that puts people in the wrong body. That’s gnostic heresy as far as I’m concerned.
Can't tell if based or cringe yet. Are you saying you're a spiritual atheist or are you decrying this notion that God 'tripped and dropped a woman's soul into a mans body'?
Honestly I really don't think there's a single iota of evidence for the whole 'woman brain in man body' thing because our brains develop from our bodies and of course our psychological state is irrevocably tied to our physical biology.
The only remotely coherent argument for what transgenderism is, is to recognize it as a social contagion brought about by a disrupted and stunted mind.
As for souls, obviously God would never make a mistake, and certainly not a mistake as disgusting as a.......
@@enclaveherewhyisntyourvide3089 No, there are no mistakes. You know the saying. Evil can only corrupt what’s already created. That’s not saying transgender people are evil, just that when you forget God, the world becomes inverted.
I was referring to the gnostic belief in the god above the creator who is indifferent to humanity. Hence the heresy.
@@DoctorLazertron Technically he/it cares but only for those who can return to the Pleroma, basically super-heaven. That's how Jesus gets roped into the whole thing, he's the Aeon who comes forth to show the way back to those who can obtain Gnosis. A different beast from the universal loving god who created all for sure but there's no reason to get their theology wrong.
@@theeccentrictripper3863 I'll admit I'm not all up on the lore, just throwing a playful jab at gnosticism with the main point being that I don't buy the 'wrong body' mythology over the medical gender dysphoria.
@@DoctorLazertron Fair enough, I'm not even a gnostic by any stretch of the imagination, just a nitpicky amateur theologian lol
I agree with your overall point, they're indulging in a new-age religion, which while fascinating to observe is quite dangerous for the people indulging and for society at large.
Being someone who can never tell if I'm a closeted trans woman or just an autogynephile or somehow a mix of both, I've ALWAYS wished they could just cure my obsession rather than stoke it further with transition. It's the reason I don't even seek help at this point...every professional is just trained to lead you down a non-problematic, "validating" transition rabbit hole that is really just false hope in most cases.
P.S. being able to opt into working conversion therapy or to remain with one's identity would ultimately give everyone more autonomy over themselves when you stop and think about it.
I don't want to insult you but, DUDE, you need to get off the fucking internet. This stuff will almost certainly dissipate if you stop watching porn and interacting with social media. I'm totally serious. Buy a few dozen books and just put down the phone for 3 months and you should be well on your way to feeling more normal.
Transition isn't exactly stoking it unless you are really an autogynephile. Speaking as a trans woman, you need a therapist. This shit is kinda complicated.
"Cochlear implants are genociding the deaf." -A terminally online person, probably.
"A room with 100 gay people has the same moral value as a room with 100 straight people." Weeeeeeeeell...lol
all I can say is if there was a pill to instantly make me comfortable with my birth sex, I’d take it
12:50 this is why im subscribed to you, you think logically when it comes to these questions.
Id argue, it can be consensual, and it does work. In fact id say it has to be consensual *in order to* work. Like any form of therapy, you have to acknowledge the problem and want to work through it. You arent going to help an alcoholic who says they dont have a problem, no matter how much therapy you give them.
The main reason conversation therapy has remained legal in most of the US is because banning adults from doing it is as much of a problem as telling trans adults they can't modify they're bodies.
Like with HRT how we draw the line on Parental rights vs possible child abuse is the actual problem. In the case of conversation therapy it's pretty much been resolved. The clear precedent has been set. I expect Trans children will have it's precedent set in the a few years if not sooner.
Consent here would be key. Otherwise, why wouldn't this hypothetical government just put something into the water to control peoples emotions? There have been articles calling for that in real life as it is.
You know a video will be good when the UA-cam Information Police add a context card
The whole reason we have hypotheticals is because it allows us to not be clouded by politics, to get to the base of the question as you said.
But these people are so stupid they think a hypothetical kills people.
I think victorias point is a good one, and that’s the reason I never wanted to talk to a therapist when I was having a hard time. I didn’t want them to give me pills that would change me into someone else.
I ultimately ended up overcoming my issues on my own but I really think that was an unhealthy mindset for me. Some people really really need to take their medications, and we shouldn’t discourage them
As long as the medications actually help that is.
It could be more time and money consuming but it's worth finding a therapist that won't recommend medication. Of the two I had, they never recommended it.
Imo we should. Fuck big pharma.
I can relate to the idea of transitioning identities as you grow up; I was a distinctly different person at different points in my life.
Quite frankly I don't think too many of the different versions of Me would get along with each other.
These people would cry about a genocide of homeless people if they managed to get out of it.
You can't even have a civil conversation with some people.... It's amazing how the people that immediately jump to violence don't see any of what they are doing as a mental illness...
But as you stated it seems as if ALOT of people from this side of the discussion just want more trans people they don't care if they are actually happy or content just that there is more. This is why parents don't want it forced on their kids in schools. I remember a comment Lilth made on a stream with Dev awhile ago and it was basically if she couldn't get her meds she would "kill" herself and even though I don't really know her that made me sad to hear and it also speaks to a deeper issue or illness.
6:28 so I can relate to this concept in a way. I have autism, and and ive grown from that, become who I am today because of that, finding ways to cope with that, and manage my behavior despite the disorder. So, if you made the premise "what if there was a pill that made you no longer autistic" id be at least hesitant to take it. Its made me who I am today, and a lot of the way my brain works is due to it. It may be an issue for a lot of things, but would eradicating that issue be worth taking away what has made me me up to this point? Im not saying autism is everything I am, but to rid myself of it after having lived with it... I just dont know if I could do it.
But as far as it goes for transgenderism itself, that's something I would rather people just do away with. It has no utility, it just causes confusion. I just would understand the hesitation I guess.
8:06 and yeah that's perfectly fine I understand that. Id just rather it be cured like as soon as its diagnosed. Or at least, in this hypothetical, if the pill existed, I would rather have been given it as soon as I was diagnosed. I wouldnt want to have to make the decision today.
what if there was a pill that raised your IQ by 50 points, would that be desirable? What if it gradually raised it over the course of say ten years? would that change your perspective as opposed to if it did it instantly? Most people don't view antidepressants as "erasing" themselves even though it's very purpose is to erase the depression
@@sdfabctr Oh that is certainly an interesting thing to consider. I cant say I really have answers for those questions.
Raising IQ would definitely be just a net positive, not really losing anything, just gaining cognitive ability. I guess that's the difference, because there are certain things when it comes to autism that are actually beneficial, and id lose that. Like how people who are blind have a better ability to hear than most people, I think there's an aspect of that when it comes to autism. If I had to say, that would be the difference here.
Like I said, cant think of any utility that comes with gender dysphoria. And of course depression doesnt have any upsides either, unless you count the kind of art that can come from depression. Which is rare because depressed people tend to lack the motivation to make it.
Cures for autism have always been about making your autism less noticeable to other people, completely ignoring your mental health.
So it is likely you will be worse off with the pill, but appear cured on the outside.
@@schwarzerritter5724 Yeah that would be a concern as well. As I am now I am able to behave well enough as to not be noticed as "autistic", which is why ive never needed medication myself. I am proud of myself for being able to do that, honestly.
So if that is all the pill would do, that just sounds redundant at best.
Hypothetically, if you hadn't managed to learn how to live with autism, would you still be unwilling to take that pill?
In other words, would you rather suffer or change?
Love the "please be nice" in the bio but himself attacking others with rude words XD
When I see these kind of bios I get a chill down my spine.
lol I had a discussion about this with a friend that was beginning transitioning. I asked "So if there were a pill that could make you feel--" and before I could finish the question, "Yes. A million times yes. Absolutely yes. It's just that there's literally nothing like that yet or even on the horizon."
These people are _insane_ and will block the progress of medical science that could genuinely help people with gender dysphoria like my friend. They're horrible human beings and they need to hear it at every possible chance.
The issue I see is that many of these people have a very shallow sense of what identity and their own consciousness is. It's like the "You're erasing who I am" idea; if you take away the quality of them being trans, they are still them. They cannot detach themselves from the label and have assigned it as an immutable characteristic. It can't be a categorical qualifier of their personal identity. Other people are trans too: are they you? No. The identity-first model warps your mind.
A lot of LGBT people do act as if they have legitimate mental problems. Thats no disrespect to them I have mental issues and its rough.
I don't think you can be in that group otherwise.
I had this hypothetical where I'd ask a genie to "make it so that everyone is born as the gender they would prefer to identify as later in life".
All potential trans people would be saved the entirety of the mental suffering and the cost of surgery right at the get go, and never even know they would've been trans in the first place.
Is this not a good thing? Giving all trans people what they need and want immediately? 100% free conversion?
The erasing personality bit reminds me of vsauce quote. "You are more similar to a random stranger than the you from years ago in the past"
It goes something lika that.
The whole I'm not who I am if I'm medicated aurgument annoys me because you can apply that to things like depression, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.
In fact it reminds me of Kanyes excuse for not taking his medicine, and we all know how that turn out.
I have grown to hate communities that refuse treatments because it would take away their "Specialness". I have autism but I don't feel unique I feel weird and I find it very challenging to communicate with others at times.
The brainlets that say creating a cure or better treatment for autism or other disabilities because it would actually make them normal that refuse to listen to reason are one of the main issues that people with mental health problems like me have.
It's not literally HRT because people on HRT still say they have disphoria. Plenty of them still seek other ways to alleviate it and others still seek Canadian health care after being on it, if you know what I mean.
Should’ve pointed out that Gender Dysphoria is disproportionately present within people also diagnosed with Autism to really drive the point home.
However, I think most people aren’t ready to have that talk…
Edit: look up Narcissa (dead name: Cosmo) Wright and tell me if they both have anything of value to say or any sort of authority on Trans topics. Now…apply that to people like Narcissa and you have what you see in this video…people who choose fetish, narcissism, and/or close-mindedness in order to pretend that they’re oppressed or being gen*coded due to faulty data/bad and/or outdated studies dictating how to interpret their lives/lifestyles 🤷🏽♂️
How come the notion of coming to terms with and accepting who you are, outside of surgical or pharmacological intervention, isn't being promoted?
I wanted to be trans in high school back in 2012-2013, and I just kept my mouth shut and stayed to myself. Years later, i was good.
This is very possible and the reason why I feel they don't want to push this to people is because being trans is typically a politically aligned move.
All this identity stuff just makes me think of, well, any number of Taoist stories about people dreaming they were one thing but then woke up to realize they were something else (Zhuangzi's butterfly dream is a prime example), the moral usually being that because existence is fleeting, obsessing over material things (including the concept of the self) are ultimately just empty and vain.
Nihilist take
@@Schule04 Not at all. Poetic philosophies such as Tao/Zen/Buddhism imply that obsessing over material things is the empty and vain pursuit, within the further context that while material experiences may not be real, reality can be directly experienced within any moment. It is not similar to the hallmark pessimism of nihilism.
The content of a dream or hallucination is generally accepted as unreal, and yet the one experiencing cannot say they did not have the experience. Who experiences?
The obsession and attachment to names and forms is considered the empty aspect- the fullness is ever present but gets obscured. Anything that has appeared, will disappear eventually. What was before, and what will be after? Was there suffering before birth?
Any number of questions may arise in a dream- upon waking, they are rendered irrelevant. Is there suffering in waking?
The content on this screen comes and goes. I experience it. This arrangement of symbols in space has relevance and meaning within this current time. It will disappear from my screen.
Given what I seen from twitter with your posts, this is gonna be spicy!
The issue I take with twitter trans people is ,"If there isn't a problem, why do you require a solution?"
I miss when HRT was reserved for hormone disorders and mentally ill gymrats.
I was pondering this topic for awhile this morning so great timing 👍 I remembered Destiny saying transition is just the best treatment we have and I wondered why that was the case and if the stigma against “conversion therapy” was more to do with the barbaric psychiatric practices of the past and people being forced into fake summer camps that really just abuse and demoralize you into claiming to be “cured”. I questioned how people would react if someone developed a real talk therapy or CBT type process that dug into the conflicts between a given person’s conception of self, masculinity, femininity, and societal norms expectations and helped them resolve those conflicts so that they no longer have dysphoria and don’t feel the need to transition.
Big pharma: “And we extract profit how?”
conversion therapy implants the idea that they might be participating in a lie and they worry that others will do things to them if they can claim you can just be "cured" which creates a threat from outsiders. Most stress comes from fears of what outsiders will do.
Transitioning is based on brain structure being different, to be fair. It isn't just a mentality thing. It could weed out non-dysphorics, but wouldn't do any good to dysphorics.
Tangential nitpick re: gay conversion pillar #4: even to a liberal society, a 100% homosexual populace isn't value neutral, because strictly gay and/or lesbian pairings don't produce children. Such a society would have to find some way of staying above the population replacement rate, or else it's a social suicide pact. (Obviously, a gay society isn't the only kind of culture to have this sort of concern -- viz. the population concerns of Japan -- but it would be among the most severe versions of the problem.) One can surmise a value-neutral gay society, but the supposition requires some other constraint: "we're fine if we all die out", or "all the women want big IVF families", or "the next generation won't be gay", or "we have clone vats", or something.
Surrogacy would still be a thing.
Being trans is just biological cosplay.
That's why i like to make the distinction between transsexual and transgender. Transexual: person with gender disphoria. Transgender: idiot that wants to subvers what it means to be human.
4:46 speaking as a children's Card Game enjoyer, we don't claim... this.
6:06 OMG 😱 I'm Trans! Thank you Dev for enlightening me. I'm now identifying as Transcendental 😎👍
If this theoretical pill existed, I think it should be a choice if they should transition or if they should take the pill. I think it would be wrong to force them to choose one way or another. For example, I am on the spectrum for autism, although I am high functioning. While I wouldn't personally take a pill that would get rid of my autism, I think it would be moral if someone wanted to do so, especially if they were low functioning.