I think think the next thing to determine is the maximum amount of time between button pushes that's possible on a NES controller (Speedrunning community and TASbot should have that answer). That ways you can assign a BPM (beats per minute) on a metronome to determine the maximum rolling speed possible, and they can train that way. In your video, you mention 20 Hertz (20 times a second) which translate to 1,200 BPM. That's not really great on a metronome, but 300 BPM is more usable using 4 fingers, or 400 BPM for 3 fingers (like Rob recommends), trying to fit 4 rolls in one of those beats, to get to 20 Hertz (or 20 hits a second). I do want to add I am not a Tetris Player, but in complete awe of how well they are able to play the game, and the speed in which they are to be able to play. On the musical side, I am starting to learn the drums, so I appreciate the metronome aspect of understanding this, and totally seen this coming eventually just like Rob.
@@MrNiceGuyNS the maximum movement speed is 30Hz on NTSC, alternating pressed and not on alternate frames. 25Hz on PAL. Speeds in that range have been reached with rolling.
I think separation of beats is going to be paramount to making this successful. If you're rolling and 2 of your fingers are hitting at the same time, you've lost a full beat there. The metronome practice is going to be huge for this reason. Really excited to be able to follow this as it's happening, big stuff in this tiny niche!
I'm a terrible hyper tapper, but because of this I might actually have a chance at competitive Tetris. I've already been practicing this sort of thing while practicing your songs, Rob. Somewhere To Run To, Anchor, Theater Girl, basically any song that requires the "Sprint" technique. I never thought that guitar practice could translate to Tetris practice. Thank you Rob!
There's flamenco players and guitarists like Tosin Abasi that use their fingers in two directions with a roll, making it even faster. But you'd have to have tension on the controller in some way to make it come back and click, because on the 'back stroke' you are not pushing the button into a click, but away _from_ a click. But that's a static force you'd have to apply, so definitely doable.
Heh... at one point when watching the video I thought "Wonder if you can add a backstroke to this instead of going in just one direction!", and I actually reached for a eyeglasses case I have and tried it for a few seconds. Not that I felt that I got any particular effect from it... but then again the shape of the case is wrong, and I have not even played console games where you needed a super high level of button press speed in probably several years or more (I have mostly been a pc gamer for the past soon 20 years... and the only time in my life where I had to use a large amount of super fast tapping was back in the very early 90's when I played some games on the NES... XD ). So the fact that I did not instantly felt an effect from adding a backstroke to the edge rolling basically means nothing... since I am sure someone who does play games that needs a high level of button press speed, like Tetris, would be able to get an idea of it's potential. As for what you said about the backstrokes pushing the buttons away from clicking... I can imagine that you would have to do some kind of technique which could be named "Push and pull rolling" (maybe "PaP Roll" in short). Where the "Push" is the normal Rolling we have seen here. And the "Pull" part would be to basically pull the controller on to your pressing finger (probably by using one or two fingers hooked around the edges of the controller and pulling the controller on to the push finger), so the button is pressed down on the backstroke of the rolling action, with where when you did the backstroke rolling the entire controller would be tapped away from the finger instead of being pressed into the pushing finger as in the normal rolling does. And then you would would have to alternate between Pushing with the normal edge rolling, and pulling the controller when you are backstroke rolling. The downside of this of course would be that you would have to dedicate one or two fingers to be able to do the pulling of the controller during the backstroke rolling... so you would have to use your pinky or ring finger (or middle finger, if you use a 1 finger hook) to press the A or B button. Pulling this of though would be harder, it would be much harder to learn than doing a single direction rolling... because not only would you have to master doing the roll in both directions... you would also have to perfectly synchronize the two direction rolling, between the normal edge rolling and then the backstroke rolling with the pulling of the controller... because if your synch between all of thse things is off you would be very ineffective, and essentially losing half of your potential clicks or more. On top of that, backstroke rolling would be more effective if you hit the top edge of the controller, rather than the bottom edge with the normal rolling... so backstroking on the bottom edge/sidewall might not be as effective. And, doing a backstroke on the controller might not have the same "grip" when it strikes the edge as the normal roll does... because you would be hitting the controller with your nails, which of course are much more slippery then your fingers flesh. On top of that it could maybe become a bit painful in the long run using the nail side of your fingers here... you just have to tap your finger on an edge, and then do the same tapping on the edge but with a backstroke on your nails, to see that backstroke rolling and hitting the nail could be painful if done for to long or done in the wrong way. So, it might be that just doing a normal single direction rolling (as we have seen people doing now) is the optimal way to do it. But... I guess it's worth exploring for the people where every fraction of a second counts in games like this. Also... sorry for the unnecessary long post... I have a hard time writing short messages when it comes to my interests, or with things which I temporarily have an interest in (like how to press buttons on a console controller faster)... and as I was going I was essentially discovering all the ideas of how to do it and all pro's and con's of "PaP Rolling" at the same time as I was writing it, which made the post even longer then it should have been... and even now I discovered a new potential name for it rather than "Push and Pull Rolling / PaP Rolling" it could be named "2D Rolling" aka "Two Direction Rolling", which would work both for the fact that you are adding a second direction with doing backstrokes, and because Tetris is a 2D game... anyway... I will stop my wall-of-text babbling now... XD
Strange take-away from this: I have weird hands where my pinky and ring fingers are separated (not connected by the tendon), so I have full control over both of them; I've never really seen this as anything other than a party trick where I'm able to touch my palm with my pinky while leaving my other fingers completely stationary... But now, even though I haven't played bass in years, I'm wanting to learn how to do that finger style trick to play *the fastest* by using all four fingers 😈
@Aquatic Ape put your hand out flat. Move your pinky into your palm without moving any of the other fingers. If you can do that, congratulations, you are abnormal.
I can touch my palm with my pinky and keep the rest stationary. (I do feel the muscle pull on my ring finger wanting to come up a bit at the very last part) Nothing special about that i figured Can only do it with my fretting (left) hand though
Hi Rob! It's really interesting to hear the thoughts on this. One thing that I'll say is that unlike playing the bass, the maximum number of consecutive taps that you need to do is 5. Rollers even deliberately stack in a way to avoid 5-tapping (as they'll call it) although you'll sometimes be forced to 5-tap anyway due to the way you stack. So, in piano terms (I'm a pianist not a bassist lmao, not sure how the finger notations will transfer), you'd almost always only do 2-3-4-5 at max. In other words, you'll never need to reuse / overwork your fingers, which makes it a bit different the "triplets" thing that you're talking about. Can't wait to see you try a bit of rolling soon! Rob Scallon, CTWC 2021 competitor with the rolling technique?
For bass, the technique is typically 4-3-2, never using 5 or 1 as 5 is weaker and less reliable and 1 is your anchor. If Tetris competitors will only ever need 4’s or 5’s, I’d suggest always starting on 3 and running through the pattern for however long is necessary. So for 4, it’s 3-2-4-3 and 5 is 3-2-4-3-2. Or perhaps starting on 2 for 4’s so you always end on 2
@@connormcinerney7503 While I think 2-3-4 would be easier for a bass player with constant practice, I'm pretty sure that 2-3-4-5 would be easier for a normal person. But if 2-3-4-2 is practised enough, then yeah that'll be more consistent because 5 is weaker.
Depending on the character of choice, Street Fighter players must learn how to send 5 inputs in a very short timespan using three fingers. I'm no tetris player, but maybe it could be useful for those interested. The technique is called "pianoing" or just "piano".
@@Honey_Beef To throw my two cents in here, as a pianist and a bass player, I think there are two really comfortable patterns that cover three taps and five taps. I think 4-3-2 would be a very comfortable way to handle three taps and 2-3-4-3-2 would comfortable cover five taps. Now the 2-3-4-3-2 style definitely wouldn't be comfortable if you were trying to make that a repeating pattern but if you're not constantly having to five tap it would work well. For the 4-3-2 over 2-3-4 I think the best way to find what's more comfortable for you is do expand it into a 1-2-3-4-5 and a 5-4-3-2-1. When the specific order doesn't matter I've noticed most people tend to do a 5-4-3-2-1. To explain the 2-3-4-3-2 pattern a little more, it would functionally be a different motion. When you play fast triplets on bass the muscles you use are on the forearm closer to the upper arm, but the 2-3-4-3-2 pattern would use more of a rocking motion which uses the upper arm muscles. And to cover the four tap scenario what I find most comfortable for finger movement is a 3-2-3-4 pattern, but I think that pattern has more to do with me being comfortable with it instead of that pattern being a comfortable pattern.
This is fantastic, I was thinking, more than a consistent rhythm a more efficient way for this application would be doing bursts of 3 or 4 fingers, because a tetris piece can only move 4 steps max to the right or to the left when it spawns in the middle. If you need to move exactly 1, 2 or exactly 3 steps you could use 1, 2 and 3 fingers each case. So its more like - piece spawns - you rotate it - burst to position - repeat.
This is incredible! This really shows that one of the best ways to evolve one game/skill is to look into other games/skills and take knowledge from them and apply it elsewhere! Love tetris and Rob so what a crossover!
I've used this same technique for fps games with guns that shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger. Halo C.E was where i figured it out, if t You accurately fire a plasma pistol with this technique you can easily outclass any other weapon in the game.
I did similar thing with P2020 in Apex Legends. Because I play on MX Anywhere 2S, I basically mapped mouse wheel down to fire, used non-stepped mode on wheel (which means it will spin freely like a spinner, lol), and that is how you auto on semiauto guns in FPS games.
This glorious fusion between professional gamers and musicians is phenomenal. I can't wait to see how this technique will be implemented in the future.
Rolling is already helping accomplish feats in the game that were thought impossible. Long standing records are getting demolished. It's always fun to see innovations to extremely old things that revolutionize the standard.
Saw the Chicago shirt, and had to look you up, i'm 30 and grew up in Schaumburg. Funny af reading about you and your buds going to Guitar Center, just to mess around with the instruments.. No doubt in my mind, it was the same exact one me and my friends would toke up and go to. 😂
if you practice 32nd notes at 120 bpm, you will effectively be rolling the controller at 62.5Hz. well above the 20Hz that is shown to be achievable by cheez. i have no idea the limit of an nes controller's input but i know that turbo buttons usually work at 30Hz. get practicing, neighbors.
Thanks for relating this to learning music and using a metronome. Makes more sense to me that way. Also, I just recently decided to really learn NES Tetris (I already play some other old and new Tetris games regularly), and I'm glad I'm hearing about this now before I get too used to DAS. Switching over to a new technique might be as disastrous as when I had to learn a more efficient way to hold my guitar pick some years ago.
Acai is one of the top guitar hero streamers and he might have some helpful input cause there's a similar method to hitting lanes with the strum bar in guitar hero
osu! (rhythm game) player here, wanted to chime in: the mechanics of tapping play a HUGE part in maximizing speed. a big part of the solution is conserving energy, which you talk about a lot -- curved fingers, tapping near the edge of the controller for more ballistic motion -- and in osu! we see similar results... players have been moving to mechanical keyboards with faster actuation times, use the spring to assist lifting the finger back up, and even space the tapping fingers apart so that they can rotate the wrist as a sort of lever-action instead of relying purely on vertical motion with the digits alone. exploiting the physical mechanics gets results! i want to suggest: move the grip (non-tapping side) as far towards the opposite edge of the controller so that the fulcrum point creates no counterweight and maximizes the ballistic movement when being tapped. i also thing having curved fingers on the digits that press the d-pad face would help as well -- striking a balance here between "spring steel fingers" and generating enough resistance to actuate the button will probably be key, but it seems like most players have an easy time generating the force required and lack travel -- so more violent, ballistic motion should be the direction to seek. doubt this will get to anyone, but if someone sees this and wants to try it, good luck! look into rhythm game tapping techniques for inspiration. clone hero, stepmania, a dance of fire and ice, and osu! could be good starting places for finding clues
The music world and the video game world are uniting to advance one of the biggest OG games of all time further than we ever thought possible. It's a good time to be alive!
The flick thing is so important at getting consistent button presses, not even really for speed. The quick button release is probably the hardest part of getting complete button presses.
The Guitar Hero community has had the idea of using multiple fingers to tap a single button for years now, called rake tapping. It's so funny seeing other communities reach the same revelation.
it seems like every rhythm game community eventually reaches this discovery, all the way back to beatmania in 1997. even DDR has had footswitches (using both legs to alternate on the same arrow) for nearly 20 years.
You can double the speed by doing alternatives, like let's say the intial 1-2-3 is a down pick but now add an upward pick in between. As someone who did fg and fps eSports, and classical guitar. I realized that butterfly clicking is similar to tremolo picking except that butterfly clickers can double their speed by flicking the mouse button on the way up as another finger follows.
I invented a method similar to this sometime in my childhood playing a mini game in kirby super star lol. Mine was a little different tho, instead of using the upside down controller i was just anchoring my finger above the button, touching but not depressed, and then using 2 fingers to tap that finger.
Muscle powered direction changes are slow, circular motions in one direction are fast. This is some sword fighting/hema technique too. IE, IN-OUT-IN is slow, but IN-THROUGH-AROUND-IN is fast. I suspect this is why handwriting is faster than printing as well, even though you are laying more ink down on paper
As a percussionist, I found that maybe doing a thumb roll (like for tambourine) on the back of the controller might achieve the same result, or maybe even faster.
there is a rhythm game player who can perform 330 bpm with just two fingers. And looking closer he's kinda what you've described "rolling" fingers on fast parts. Search for "merami technique".
for those who aren't sure how fast 330 bpm is I will say it's alternating the taps between 2 fingers on 2 keys with the speed of 22 (330/(1/4)/60) hits per second or 11 times per second per finger the key in his technique is not rolling (not gonna lie I don't see rolling at all and spacebar would be still in the way) but offloading all the strain to his thumb. it gives a lot of stamina and speed but very hard to learn
I don't know anything about competitive tetris, but this seems really interesting. Nice video! On a slightly different note, though, that 6 string fretless schecter bass you're using is one I've been looking to buy for a while, but Im still uncertain as to whether I should get it. This seems like a prime opportunity to ask a couple questions, since you have one. My first question is: Does this have a strange issue with sustain on the last fret position? My 21 fret position fretless has problems making the note in the 21st position, and I haven't had the opportunity to try a different fretless, neither have I been able to find a straight answer through google. My second question is: just how tense are the strings? I know its a 35'' scale, so it'll have more tension than usual, but is it really that much more noticeable than the standard 34'' tension? Even if you don't respond, thanks for making videos, Rob. Keep up the good work
The pinkie ring finger thing makes me mad as a banjo player. When I started planting on the banjo head I was so lost, because of my pinkie/ring finger tendon.
I think this technique would be even better if you add the rotation of your wrist as another movement multiplier, just as Flamenco guitarrists uses to do on their right hand (Right-handed players of course, dah...) to bring rhytmical speed in a consistent but natural way of playing. Just a thought, great topic indeed!
I LOVE this. All I see in the comments are guitar/string players wanting to pick up Classic Tetris. We might see a whole wave of string/piano players competing in future CTWCs.
So I play 3-finger banjo to an advanced level and competitive Tetris with DAS... I'd really love to figure out how to get my banjo technique to help me with hyper-tapping, but then my banjo playing tops out at about 300bpm with eighth notes, which only works out at 10Hz anyway. This video is really cool and definitely helpful, but I think in terms of music, Tetris is more akin to a trill on piano or a roll on a snare, where you still have even rhythm, but it's not something you can sustain for long periods of time. You really need to tap at 12Hz+ to be an effective hyper-tapper, which if we're thinking of playing eighth notes, would be the equivalent of playing music at 360bpm. Not completely infeasible, but pretty difficult... I did give rolling a go, but to be honest, it seemed about as hard as learning to hyper-tap. Something that felt had promise was using two fingers on both hands to tap the back of the pad - that let me keep a grip that felt a lot more natural to me as a DAS player and you don't ever need to tap more than 4 times anyway, not counting adjustments/tucks, so it makes sense to spread out the work. I'll stick with DAS till I hit that max-out before experimenting more with rolling though :)
Non-tetris player revolutionizes Tetris play. But yeah, the second I learned of this technique, my first thought was that bassists are about to take over...maybe I need to switch back to bass
Track and field 2 would suffice! You can use it on the A button in the Arm wrestling game and see if you can crush an NES Advantage rolled to around half speed input.
1. Put a band aid over your knuckles 2. Rub your knuckles from just under the button over the a button, hitting it both with an up and downward motion for twice the result 3. Profit On the game boy there was a tiny toons game that had a racing bonus game where you needed to alternate A and B quickly With the rubbing method going horizontally across both buttons you outrun even the fastest competitor with double the speed lol And yes, ive done it without the band aid as a kid, the friction burn is crazy as you're brute forcing the edgea on the sides and i fucked up my knuckles quite bad Hence, the band aid The convex buttons on the GB are better for this compared to the concave ones on the nes controller though
Thank you, this is awesome!! Was not expecting this to be up so fast. Will definitely have to do another response video back diving into all of this.
This is about to become so awesome!!
Also on bass you have to anchor your thumb somewhere to be effective! I don't know how you could get an anchor point on a NES controller though
I think think the next thing to determine is the maximum amount of time between button pushes that's possible on a NES controller (Speedrunning community and TASbot should have that answer). That ways you can assign a BPM (beats per minute) on a metronome to determine the maximum rolling speed possible, and they can train that way. In your video, you mention 20 Hertz (20 times a second) which translate to 1,200 BPM. That's not really great on a metronome, but 300 BPM is more usable using 4 fingers, or 400 BPM for 3 fingers (like Rob recommends), trying to fit 4 rolls in one of those beats, to get to 20 Hertz (or 20 hits a second).
I do want to add I am not a Tetris Player, but in complete awe of how well they are able to play the game, and the speed in which they are to be able to play.
On the musical side, I am starting to learn the drums, so I appreciate the metronome aspect of understanding this, and totally seen this coming eventually just like Rob.
@@MrNiceGuyNS the maximum movement speed is 30Hz on NTSC, alternating pressed and not on alternate frames. 25Hz on PAL. Speeds in that range have been reached with rolling.
I think separation of beats is going to be paramount to making this successful. If you're rolling and 2 of your fingers are hitting at the same time, you've lost a full beat there. The metronome practice is going to be huge for this reason.
Really excited to be able to follow this as it's happening, big stuff in this tiny niche!
This whole thing, the video being vertical, the constant giggling and fanboying, has big early youtube response video vibes
What a time that was. Yeesh.
vertical video don't have early youtube vibes imho, 4:3 is the true early youtube
@@Gabrol well, I meant more like the energy that this was all done in a hurry, because you HAD to post that reply video
I was there Gandalf...
Damn I almost forgot about reply videos. Remember reply girls being a thing?
I never thought i would hear the sentence "Rob really was ahead of his time" within the context of competitive gaming
RIP Jonas. I loved that video you made with him
What happened to him?
@@Cash_Bright39 i just looked it up and sadly he passed away from a sudden medical emergency and never regained conciousness.
@@Cash_Bright39 it was cardiac arrest
@@BGRecon holy shit wtf. He was arguably the best tetris player for 10+ years and set many world records or firsts
@@caseyhamm8822 aww no way
I just love how frikin wholesome this all is
The NES controller is now a string instrument.
i mean it has a cable attached which is technically a STRING of wires..
Obligatory: Is mayonaise an instrument?
The way some people are rolling with the thumb is exactly how you play flamenco guitar
That doesnt make any sense. Grow up
Thanks for the video, Rob! It was helpful to see what I can do better in my games with rolling.
Cheez! Seen your 274,800 From a 29 Start. Simply insane man!!! Btw, check your Twitter DM's :)
jesus christ Cheez practicing with a metronome - game over xdddd 16ths right away xdd
Really impressed you figured this out. It's so simple it probably should've been obvious a long time ago. Congrats on the records.
And now the high score only 10x-ed
I'd love to see Rob mentioned in a SummoningSalt video because of this. lol
heck yes, musicians and gamers unite!
@@daniel_naaden Music and gaming a lot more connect than you would have thought!!
“A Man Played Musical Instruments For 20 Years. This Is What Happened To His Brain.”
- Chubbyemu
@@deadfr0g I hate those kind of titles
Best comment thread ever. Rob, SummoningSalt and Chubbyemu in 4 posts.
I'm a terrible hyper tapper, but because of this I might actually have a chance at competitive Tetris. I've already been practicing this sort of thing while practicing your songs, Rob. Somewhere To Run To, Anchor, Theater Girl, basically any song that requires the "Sprint" technique. I never thought that guitar practice could translate to Tetris practice. Thank you Rob!
Yes, tapping the bottom was pure genius! I also started working on finger speed on a bass in the early 80s.
Take a bow, sir. Your Track and Field rolling techniques are a major contribution to this new way of playing Classic Tetris.
There's flamenco players and guitarists like Tosin Abasi that use their fingers in two directions with a roll, making it even faster. But you'd have to have tension on the controller in some way to make it come back and click, because on the 'back stroke' you are not pushing the button into a click, but away _from_ a click. But that's a static force you'd have to apply, so definitely doable.
Heh... at one point when watching the video I thought "Wonder if you can add a backstroke to this instead of going in just one direction!", and I actually reached for a eyeglasses case I have and tried it for a few seconds.
Not that I felt that I got any particular effect from it... but then again the shape of the case is wrong, and I have not even played console games where you needed a super high level of button press speed in probably several years or more (I have mostly been a pc gamer for the past soon 20 years... and the only time in my life where I had to use a large amount of super fast tapping was back in the very early 90's when I played some games on the NES... XD ). So the fact that I did not instantly felt an effect from adding a backstroke to the edge rolling basically means nothing... since I am sure someone who does play games that needs a high level of button press speed, like Tetris, would be able to get an idea of it's potential.
As for what you said about the backstrokes pushing the buttons away from clicking... I can imagine that you would have to do some kind of technique which could be named "Push and pull rolling" (maybe "PaP Roll" in short). Where the "Push" is the normal Rolling we have seen here.
And the "Pull" part would be to basically pull the controller on to your pressing finger (probably by using one or two fingers hooked around the edges of the controller and pulling the controller on to the push finger), so the button is pressed down on the backstroke of the rolling action, with where when you did the backstroke rolling the entire controller would be tapped away from the finger instead of being pressed into the pushing finger as in the normal rolling does. And then you would would have to alternate between Pushing with the normal edge rolling, and pulling the controller when you are backstroke rolling.
The downside of this of course would be that you would have to dedicate one or two fingers to be able to do the pulling of the controller during the backstroke rolling... so you would have to use your pinky or ring finger (or middle finger, if you use a 1 finger hook) to press the A or B button.
Pulling this of though would be harder, it would be much harder to learn than doing a single direction rolling... because not only would you have to master doing the roll in both directions... you would also have to perfectly synchronize the two direction rolling, between the normal edge rolling and then the backstroke rolling with the pulling of the controller... because if your synch between all of thse things is off you would be very ineffective, and essentially losing half of your potential clicks or more.
On top of that, backstroke rolling would be more effective if you hit the top edge of the controller, rather than the bottom edge with the normal rolling... so backstroking on the bottom edge/sidewall might not be as effective. And, doing a backstroke on the controller might not have the same "grip" when it strikes the edge as the normal roll does... because you would be hitting the controller with your nails, which of course are much more slippery then your fingers flesh.
On top of that it could maybe become a bit painful in the long run using the nail side of your fingers here... you just have to tap your finger on an edge, and then do the same tapping on the edge but with a backstroke on your nails, to see that backstroke rolling and hitting the nail could be painful if done for to long or done in the wrong way.
So, it might be that just doing a normal single direction rolling (as we have seen people doing now) is the optimal way to do it. But... I guess it's worth exploring for the people where every fraction of a second counts in games like this.
Also... sorry for the unnecessary long post... I have a hard time writing short messages when it comes to my interests, or with things which I temporarily have an interest in (like how to press buttons on a console controller faster)... and as I was going I was essentially discovering all the ideas of how to do it and all pro's and con's of "PaP Rolling" at the same time as I was writing it, which made the post even longer then it should have been... and even now I discovered a new potential name for it rather than "Push and Pull Rolling / PaP Rolling" it could be named "2D Rolling" aka "Two Direction Rolling", which would work both for the fact that you are adding a second direction with doing backstrokes, and because Tetris is a 2D game... anyway... I will stop my wall-of-text babbling now... XD
You're video with Jonas is how I discovered CTWC! RIP to him and much love to you for your involvement in the community.
Strange take-away from this: I have weird hands where my pinky and ring fingers are separated (not connected by the tendon), so I have full control over both of them; I've never really seen this as anything other than a party trick where I'm able to touch my palm with my pinky while leaving my other fingers completely stationary... But now, even though I haven't played bass in years, I'm wanting to learn how to do that finger style trick to play *the fastest* by using all four fingers 😈
that's so cool!! i'm jealous
Neato
Sounds sick! I hope you pull it off to your liking.
@Aquatic Ape put your hand out flat. Move your pinky into your palm without moving any of the other fingers. If you can do that, congratulations, you are abnormal.
I can touch my palm with my pinky and keep the rest stationary. (I do feel the muscle pull on my ring finger wanting to come up a bit at the very last part)
Nothing special about that i figured
Can only do it with my fretting (left) hand though
Rob should really do a Guitar Quest for bass, his technique is insane.
:O
Hi Rob! It's really interesting to hear the thoughts on this.
One thing that I'll say is that unlike playing the bass, the maximum number of consecutive taps that you need to do is 5. Rollers even deliberately stack in a way to avoid 5-tapping (as they'll call it) although you'll sometimes be forced to 5-tap anyway due to the way you stack.
So, in piano terms (I'm a pianist not a bassist lmao, not sure how the finger notations will transfer), you'd almost always only do 2-3-4-5 at max. In other words, you'll never need to reuse / overwork your fingers, which makes it a bit different the "triplets" thing that you're talking about.
Can't wait to see you try a bit of rolling soon! Rob Scallon, CTWC 2021 competitor with the rolling technique?
For bass, the technique is typically 4-3-2, never using 5 or 1 as 5 is weaker and less reliable and 1 is your anchor. If Tetris competitors will only ever need 4’s or 5’s, I’d suggest always starting on 3 and running through the pattern for however long is necessary. So for 4, it’s 3-2-4-3 and 5 is 3-2-4-3-2. Or perhaps starting on 2 for 4’s so you always end on 2
@@connormcinerney7503 While I think 2-3-4 would be easier for a bass player with constant practice, I'm pretty sure that 2-3-4-5 would be easier for a normal person. But if 2-3-4-2 is practised enough, then yeah that'll be more consistent because 5 is weaker.
Depending on the character of choice, Street Fighter players must learn how to send 5 inputs in a very short timespan using three fingers. I'm no tetris player, but maybe it could be useful for those interested. The technique is called "pianoing" or just "piano".
@@Honey_Beef To throw my two cents in here, as a pianist and a bass player, I think there are two really comfortable patterns that cover three taps and five taps. I think 4-3-2 would be a very comfortable way to handle three taps and 2-3-4-3-2 would comfortable cover five taps. Now the 2-3-4-3-2 style definitely wouldn't be comfortable if you were trying to make that a repeating pattern but if you're not constantly having to five tap it would work well.
For the 4-3-2 over 2-3-4 I think the best way to find what's more comfortable for you is do expand it into a 1-2-3-4-5 and a 5-4-3-2-1. When the specific order doesn't matter I've noticed most people tend to do a 5-4-3-2-1.
To explain the 2-3-4-3-2 pattern a little more, it would functionally be a different motion. When you play fast triplets on bass the muscles you use are on the forearm closer to the upper arm, but the 2-3-4-3-2 pattern would use more of a rocking motion which uses the upper arm muscles.
And to cover the four tap scenario what I find most comfortable for finger movement is a 3-2-3-4 pattern, but I think that pattern has more to do with me being comfortable with it instead of that pattern being a comfortable pattern.
Damn I really wish Jonas was here to witness this 😞
Yooooooo im so happy you are still a fan of tetris. You and jonas made me a fan of the game
This is fantastic, I was thinking, more than a consistent rhythm a more efficient way for this application would be doing bursts of 3 or 4 fingers, because a tetris piece can only move 4 steps max to the right or to the left when it spawns in the middle. If you need to move exactly 1, 2 or exactly 3 steps you could use 1, 2 and 3 fingers each case. So its more like - piece spawns - you rotate it - burst to position - repeat.
This is actually a very useful video, thanks Rob!
Rest in peace, Jonas.
This is incredible! This really shows that one of the best ways to evolve one game/skill is to look into other games/skills and take knowledge from them and apply it elsewhere! Love tetris and Rob so what a crossover!
a beautiful collision of video games and music *chef's kiss*
I don't play Tetris but Rob was so excited couldn't help but smile lol
10/10 wholesome video
And this trick has produced one of the best tetris players.
that bassline at 7:05 sound very cool would like to hear it in a song
I've used this same technique for fps games with guns that shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger. Halo C.E was where i figured it out, if t
You accurately fire a plasma pistol with this technique you can easily outclass any other weapon in the game.
A weapon to surpass halo
I did similar thing with P2020 in Apex Legends. Because I play on MX Anywhere 2S, I basically mapped mouse wheel down to fire, used non-stepped mode on wheel (which means it will spin freely like a spinner, lol), and that is how you auto on semiauto guns in FPS games.
I did that in certain games I don't remember. I wasn't super good at it but it helped a bit.
This glorious fusion between professional gamers and musicians is phenomenal. I can't wait to see how this technique will be implemented in the future.
Rolling is already helping accomplish feats in the game that were thought impossible. Long standing records are getting demolished. It's always fun to see innovations to extremely old things that revolutionize the standard.
Rob is such a talented musician I learn guitar technique from him when he talks about Tetris.
Your video with Jonas was what got me into tetris. Rest in peace.
@blackdiamond 0075 1.1 million? I only ever got up to about 450k, very impressive!
@blackdiamond 0075 Veeeery nice! I'm barely able to pass the 250k mark
I’ve never seen any of your videos or gamescouts videos before these two, but they were both a delight :)
Saw the Chicago shirt, and had to look you up, i'm 30 and grew up in Schaumburg.
Funny af reading about you and your buds going to Guitar Center,
just to mess around with the instruments.. No doubt in my mind,
it was the same exact one me and my friends would toke up and go to. 😂
Look how happy, Rob is :) this is awesome!
Love that you are bringing your music knowledge to help the Tetris community
Thanks Rob. So cool to see your response and insight into this. Very worth it. Best from Germany! ✌🏼
Musicians teaching tetris players how to play their game
What the fuck? XD
yes, Scallon master class on Rolling at CTWC, can't wait.
if you practice 32nd notes at 120 bpm, you will effectively be rolling the controller at 62.5Hz.
well above the 20Hz that is shown to be achievable by cheez.
i have no idea the limit of an nes controller's input but i know that turbo buttons usually work at 30Hz.
get practicing, neighbors.
Man, Rob is just such a cool dude! I can't even think of anything else, just, cool.
Thanks for relating this to learning music and using a metronome. Makes more sense to me that way. Also, I just recently decided to really learn NES Tetris (I already play some other old and new Tetris games regularly), and I'm glad I'm hearing about this now before I get too used to DAS. Switching over to a new technique might be as disastrous as when I had to learn a more efficient way to hold my guitar pick some years ago.
Acai is one of the top guitar hero streamers and he might have some helpful input cause there's a similar method to hitting lanes with the strum bar in guitar hero
osu! (rhythm game) player here, wanted to chime in:
the mechanics of tapping play a HUGE part in maximizing speed. a big part of the solution is conserving energy, which you talk about a lot -- curved fingers, tapping near the edge of the controller for more ballistic motion -- and in osu! we see similar results... players have been moving to mechanical keyboards with faster actuation times, use the spring to assist lifting the finger back up, and even space the tapping fingers apart so that they can rotate the wrist as a sort of lever-action instead of relying purely on vertical motion with the digits alone. exploiting the physical mechanics gets results!
i want to suggest: move the grip (non-tapping side) as far towards the opposite edge of the controller so that the fulcrum point creates no counterweight and maximizes the ballistic movement when being tapped. i also thing having curved fingers on the digits that press the d-pad face would help as well -- striking a balance here between "spring steel fingers" and generating enough resistance to actuate the button will probably be key, but it seems like most players have an easy time generating the force required and lack travel -- so more violent, ballistic motion should be the direction to seek.
doubt this will get to anyone, but if someone sees this and wants to try it, good luck! look into rhythm game tapping techniques for inspiration. clone hero, stepmania, a dance of fire and ice, and osu! could be good starting places for finding clues
Rob is probably the type of guy I’d never expect to be into gaming.
@Diss Raps Fuck, I actually laughed out loud at that.
The music world and the video game world are uniting to advance one of the biggest OG games of all time further than we ever thought possible. It's a good time to be alive!
The flick thing is so important at getting consistent button presses, not even really for speed. The quick button release is probably the hardest part of getting complete button presses.
I have no idea what's going on but I love how excited this guy is!
The Guitar Hero community has had the idea of using multiple fingers to tap a single button for years now, called rake tapping. It's so funny seeing other communities reach the same revelation.
3:56 Lol, he's literally describing rake strumming!
it seems like every rhythm game community eventually reaches this discovery, all the way back to beatmania in 1997. even DDR has had footswitches (using both legs to alternate on the same arrow) for nearly 20 years.
You can double the speed by doing alternatives, like let's say the intial 1-2-3 is a down pick but now add an upward pick in between.
As someone who did fg and fps eSports, and classical guitar. I realized that butterfly clicking is similar to tremolo picking except that butterfly clickers can double their speed by flicking the mouse button on the way up as another finger follows.
I invented a method similar to this sometime in my childhood playing a mini game in kirby super star lol. Mine was a little different tho, instead of using the upside down controller i was just anchoring my finger above the button, touching but not depressed, and then using 2 fingers to tap that finger.
From watching Scout's video, it sounds like some people have experimented with that for Tetris as well. Cool stuff.
RIP jonas
Rob is the next classic tetris champ
I miss Jonas
You could also use the game audio as a way to peg multiples of your desired rolling BPM for consistency
Thanks for putting this on the second channel. I wouldn't have seen it otherwise.
what happens to the pieces when you go even faster than current rolling? do they move even faster?
What an absolute legend.
Muscle powered direction changes are slow, circular motions in one direction are fast. This is some sword fighting/hema technique too. IE, IN-OUT-IN is slow, but IN-THROUGH-AROUND-IN is fast.
I suspect this is why handwriting is faster than printing as well, even though you are laying more ink down on paper
This makes me so happy :)
Whatever you Tetris guys do- DO NOT let Paul Gilbert hear about this or he'll rule the Tetris world for the rest of his days.
As a percussionist, I found that maybe doing a thumb roll (like for tambourine) on the back of the controller might achieve the same result, or maybe even faster.
there is a rhythm game player who can perform 330 bpm with just two fingers. And looking closer he's kinda what you've described "rolling" fingers on fast parts.
Search for "merami technique".
for those who aren't sure how fast 330 bpm is I will say it's alternating the taps between 2 fingers on 2 keys with the speed of 22 (330/(1/4)/60) hits per second or 11 times per second per finger
the key in his technique is not rolling (not gonna lie I don't see rolling at all and spacebar would be still in the way) but offloading all the strain to his thumb. it gives a lot of stamina and speed but very hard to learn
I don't know anything about competitive tetris, but this seems really interesting. Nice video!
On a slightly different note, though, that 6 string fretless schecter bass you're using is one I've been looking to buy for a while, but Im still uncertain as to whether I should get it. This seems like a prime opportunity to ask a couple questions, since you have one. My first question is: Does this have a strange issue with sustain on the last fret position? My 21 fret position fretless has problems making the note in the 21st position, and I haven't had the opportunity to try a different fretless, neither have I been able to find a straight answer through google. My second question is: just how tense are the strings? I know its a 35'' scale, so it'll have more tension than usual, but is it really that much more noticeable than the standard 34'' tension? Even if you don't respond, thanks for making videos, Rob. Keep up the good work
Worlds I never expected to combine, this is really fuckin cool
This cross pollination is so cool, love it.
Now you need to compete in the Tetris Championships.
Haha! I use 7 fingers on Track and Field because my pinky just won't do it on my left hand with precision. I can do it, but not smooth and fast.
I loved to watch these tournaments, but I gets old real quick when they all are so strung up into using the original controller.
3:51 Hammer-ons?
Thanks
Man, Rob would dominate on "International track and field"
I'm holding @RobScallon2 responsible If Steve Harris leaves Iron Maiden to become a competitive Tetris player after watching this video.
I don’t play Tetris or bass but this is dope
The pinkie ring finger thing makes me mad as a banjo player. When I started planting on the banjo head I was so lost, because of my pinkie/ring finger tendon.
Hope to see you in CTM someday Rob.
good gravy rob, you should give competative tetris a shot!!
Oh Rob, I really hope this stuff takes off :D
Yaaaay love ya rob ❤
I learned how to play the controller today.
I think this technique would be even better if you add the rotation of your wrist as another movement multiplier, just as Flamenco guitarrists uses to do on their right hand (Right-handed players of course, dah...) to bring rhytmical speed in a consistent but natural way of playing. Just a thought, great topic indeed!
6:12
Did he just say BASSically!
Alex Webster is about to destroy everyone at Classic Tetris World Championship
I LOVE this. All I see in the comments are guitar/string players wanting to pick up Classic Tetris. We might see a whole wave of string/piano players competing in future CTWCs.
RIP
RIP Jonas
Buckethead plays guitar and pushes a button at the same time, he's got rather good at it, lol 😌 👌
Those arcade button killswitches are cool! I had a guitar modded with one!
@@HenritheHorse I've not had the pleasure yet 😕 lol, though I've got a guitar I'm going to have one installed in 👌
@@SoupieGuitar It's great fun and cool effect!
Get this guy an NES Tetris cartridge so he can practice!
I can't help wondering what might happen if MAB gave it some time .
ok but when do we get to see that shecter studio in background in a video 🤔
Can you make an example of this on Tetris?
So I play 3-finger banjo to an advanced level and competitive Tetris with DAS... I'd really love to figure out how to get my banjo technique to help me with hyper-tapping, but then my banjo playing tops out at about 300bpm with eighth notes, which only works out at 10Hz anyway. This video is really cool and definitely helpful, but I think in terms of music, Tetris is more akin to a trill on piano or a roll on a snare, where you still have even rhythm, but it's not something you can sustain for long periods of time. You really need to tap at 12Hz+ to be an effective hyper-tapper, which if we're thinking of playing eighth notes, would be the equivalent of playing music at 360bpm. Not completely infeasible, but pretty difficult...
I did give rolling a go, but to be honest, it seemed about as hard as learning to hyper-tap. Something that felt had promise was using two fingers on both hands to tap the back of the pad - that let me keep a grip that felt a lot more natural to me as a DAS player and you don't ever need to tap more than 4 times anyway, not counting adjustments/tucks, so it makes sense to spread out the work. I'll stick with DAS till I hit that max-out before experimenting more with rolling though :)
Non-tetris player revolutionizes Tetris play. But yeah, the second I learned of this technique, my first thought was that bassists are about to take over...maybe I need to switch back to bass
Nobody tell Alex Webster about this
Yo! What if Rob played a set for the CTWC!
Sick, i love tetris
Nice, dude. Thanks!
DAS
-
Hypertapping
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Scallon-tapping
yoo i genuinely didn’t know you were into tetris. that’s awesome man!
Same for me and a bunch of others probably
You are like the Kakashi Hatake of UA-cam musicians. Super analytical, man.
Funny how someone that doesn’t play competitive Tetris might be making some of the biggest changes to competitive Tetris
Track and field 2 would suffice! You can use it on the A button in the Arm wrestling game and see if you can crush an NES Advantage rolled to around half speed input.
1. Put a band aid over your knuckles
2. Rub your knuckles from just under the button over the a button, hitting it both with an up and downward motion for twice the result
3. Profit
On the game boy there was a tiny toons game that had a racing bonus game where you needed to alternate A and B quickly
With the rubbing method going horizontally across both buttons you outrun even the fastest competitor with double the speed lol
And yes, ive done it without the band aid as a kid, the friction burn is crazy as you're brute forcing the edgea on the sides and i fucked up my knuckles quite bad
Hence, the band aid
The convex buttons on the GB are better for this compared to the concave ones on the nes controller though
6:13 So BASSically
how do they rotate the pieces in that postition?