Some folks have been posting comments saying there is an error in this video. There is not. If you feel there is, you don't understand something. Please email me and I'll set it straight for you. thx
jobonekanobe Because 330 outbound means you're heading 330 and away from the vortac. If you are 330 radial inbound, you're actually heading 150 ON the 330 radial, going towards it.
Avery Kucan but if we got an instruction like hold at abc vor 330 r 15 dme 330 inbound things will be different right? I know this doesn't make so much sense but I get confused when I get this instruction at simulator today
Rather than the thumb method, I was taught to put a pencil over the heading indicator in the same 20 degree offset. Either way works fine. My instructor was an ex-Delta Captain and he taught me well. The examiner was very impressed and told me to thank the instructor for him.
I just saw your most recent holding video and half way through I remember this one. This video helped me in 2015 to understand and visualize holding patters on the heading indicator. Some friends thought I was crazy on the steps, but when I explained them this same method they had to swallow their pride and apologize. Thank you so much for your time on teaching us tips, tricks and ways to improve on our flying!
I've watched at least 10 videos on holding patterns and this one is the best one if you want to be able to answer the questions correct on the FAA exam. Thanks!
I don't see anything wrong with this video. I was taught this method during my instrument rating and 9 years later, it still works beautifully, even in commercial flying :) Nice video!
There are many ways to explain holding patterns. This one is the best for me by far, even though if others try to explain the same thing with other words, this video makes the "click" that I need in my mind. Thanks very much!!
Without reading all the remarks, decades ago I was taught the technique of placing my index finger pointed straight up at the top of the HSI “right finger for right hand holding” and closing my other fingers while my thumb points straight out. In other words a hand pointing with his index finger. Now look at where the outbound heading falls. The range between your index finger and thumb represents teardrop entry as it’s roughly 70 degrees. On the left side of your index finger represents the 110 degrees so a parallel entry and finally anything falling outside that is a direct entry. There’s no math or calculations, just look at where the heading falls. And again, for a left hand holding pattern use your left hand. I used and told fellow pilot’s about it for our six month sim checks and it is a handy thing to use and it’s quick and accurate. Happy flying.
Yep, that's the same technique (with one extra finger) and it works! I like it as a redundant check because it doesn't require thinking and, well, redundancy is always a good thing. thx
This is a Great Tidbit! Thanks..... and I am glad you made a point to say OUTBOUND (The hold- on Radial) As what to look for on the Heading Indicator... I was almost confused for a sec.
Techniques are like shoes...most of us have several different kinds. I like this one. Super simple...easy to remember. Even works in a heli. Thanks, great video.
I was taught for left turn use left hand and for right turns (standard) use right hand... stick out your thumb, index finger, and pinky finger. Lay hand across HI with thumb horizontal as you state and area between the thumb and index finger - parallel entry, area between index finger and pinky finger - teardrop entry and area by palm is a direct entry. And a good mnemonic to remember when copying holding info, use DFRATE - Direction, Fix, Radial, Altitude, Turn, EFC (Expect Further Clearance Time). Another great video as usual!
It looks like Captain Joe got plenty of inspiration from this video, even the BAM made it over to his recent video :) Thank you for the great videos, TFP!
perfectly agree with almra...good job to the author...different situation that could happen, holding on a hdg (keep outband), holding on radial (you already have outband)
Hi peter the reciprocal that you mentioned (150 degrees) is the course TO the station therefore the INBOUND leg. a radial is a straight line from the station which means that if you fly at a heading of 330 degrees then you are flying away from the station which means you will be flying outbound.
150 radial. 330-200=130+20=150. Any number under 180 add 200 then subtract 20. Any number over 180 subtract 200 then add 20 to get the reciprocal. Hope you find this formula as helpful as I do. Cheers, Ken
*I will fact check this with my CFI once I start proper IFR flight training, but I want to take my written this December...im in regular school now, but I gotta study so I can take that IFR and have it out of the way!!*
Great idea Captain keep it up I got one confusion question. I wonder which of the two ways is faster and helpful to land a job at an airline , is it by holding a CPL IR ME or by holding a Multi-Crew Pilot License ? as you know that pretty much all airlines need pilots with experience and so on. Thank you sir
Working on my instrument ticket right now. Stuff like this is priceless. My goal is to get the basics down locally and then I hope to travel to Northern Ca and hook up with you and do some training in some real IMC conditions with you. (Not much in the way of actual IMC in Lake Havasu, AZ). To try and make it more realistic doing the majority of my training under the hood at night. Love your style of training and I’m sucking up as much of it as I can from your videos. Thanks so much for posting stuff like this!
Come up anytime! Especially the summer. We get great opportunities to practice low approaches in actual IMC in the summer months along the coast. I like your strategy of training at night in AZ. I'm happy to hear you're getting a lot from the videos, keep it up -- your hard work will pay off!
The Finer Points I’m flying up to Watsonville in about a week. If I have time I might try to blow over to San Carlos just to see if you’re around and meet up. :-)
The Finer Points sure will. Obviously I need VFR weather and checking weather this morning it looks like it might be in short supply around 20th and 21st. I’ll be sure to give ya call if it looks like it’s gonna work out. :-). Looking forward to meeting you whenever it works out. Really like your stuff and he stuff you’ve done with Steve @Flight Chops. :-)
mpl is usually done by airliners themselves for their student pilot. it's like a more direct way to be a co-pilot than CPL. but if you learn a license by spending your own money, then u should choose CPL.
If you’re confused as you think this method looks odd compared to drawing it on a chart, Try drawing it on a scrap paper as you would the chart in a dark marker. Then flip the paper over to see the back side of the paper with that dark marker showing through. Draw your HSI about this and you’ll see that it isn’t mismatched, rather the way you learned to draw it on the paper is the opposite side of the same thing as this HSI “thumb” method. At any rate, put the “Why” into each entry with Parallel to avoid the unprotected side while Tear Drop to create turning room so as not to fly into the unprotected side in the subsequent turn. For the HSI method, I personally don’t use a thumb, rather I use a mnemonic with “standard turn is right, right is light” thus popping the right side up twenty degrees, or “left turn lift left” popping the left up twenty degrees.
In reply to Ken Marshall As Being Australian commercial pilot to work out reciprocal bearing or radial if your bearing or radial is 180 (240) then you subtract 2 then add 2 (240 - 2 (040)240 + 2 (060))
My CFII taught me this but mental math while flying single pilot IFR is a distraction and its not something I recommend. I just remember runway alignments add 5 if need be or just look at the dam dg or obs, answer is right in front of you. Keep it simple
I'm agree with DavidGTI is not clear which one i have tto choose ....inbound or outbound? If ATC wants me to hold on 330R with 180HDG is direct even the example before ....
During a practice IFR written test, this was one of the questions asked: You arrive at the 15 DME fix on a heading of 350°. Which holding pattern correctly complies with the ATC clearance below, and what is the recommended entry procedure? '...HOLD WEST OF THE ONE FIVE DME FIX ON THE ZERO NINE ZERO RADIAL OF THE ABC VORTAC, FIVE MILE LEGS, LEFT TURNS...' My answer, based on this video as I understand it, would be a parallel entry. Yet, there wasn't even a choice for parallel; so I just picked teardrop thinking I had a 50/50 chance of being right. Still got it wrong, as the correct answer was apparently direct entry, which now has me a very confused. If anyone could enlighten me on this, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you. UPDATE: I just rewatched the video and caught the part that said you're looking for the "outbound heading" (2:25). The scenario tells you to hold on the 090 radial. However, I just realized that 090 is outbound from the VOR, NOT from the 15 DME fix. Thus, the outbound heading from the 15 DME fix would be 270. Taking that into consideration, 270 does fall within the "direct entry" area. Am I correct in my reassessment? Thank you in advance.
You have to turn toward the fix to do this procedure - to see it oriented to the top of your heading indicator. Or, without turning yet, you have to imagine turning to the heading to the fix, then doing this procedure rotated to that heading.
There's is absolutely no error in what your saying...apparently everyone thinks there an expert in social media. My CFII who is a retired airline pilot taught me this as well as drawing it out on a piece of paper for additional situational awareness.
This can be even easier. Forget the entire teardrop option and do all except the direct entry by parallel entry. Fly outbound on the radial once reaching the station. In one minute, turn to the protected side and go 120 degrees. (Assuming no wind correction needed). You will end up back on the inbound radial and then make your turn when reaching the station.
Remember: you are holding on the 330 Radial. The radial radiates FROM the VOR. You will be flying the reciprocal - a 150 TO the radial on that inbound leg. Makes sense?
Ben Ma and Sunny441 and Marcelodtise and others are correct - he gets it wrong on the last example. The first example uses the OUTBOUND track on the hold to decide sector entry method. In the last example he says to hold on the 330 redial (which is from the station) and so he should have used the reciprocal to that which is 150 degrees and that would give a "Sector 2" (in Australia) or "tear drop" (in USA) entry. But he stuffs it up and looks at the 330 degree point on the heading indicator.
Jason, In the last example, you have on your heading indicator a 175 heading assuming you have twisted and then identified your need to turn to that VOR/Location and then once you are on that heading, then you do the thumb? Am I correct? My problem that took me a few views of this was each example had you on a 175 degree heading. (thanks for videos, your podcasts got me through my private, now on my way to the IFR!)
Hi Mark, not sure I understand the question. The entry can be visualized when you are pointed at the fix - and the thumb method works then as well. For example, in practice I often point the student at a VOR that is 30 miles away and work on entries as we move toward it until we finally get there an enter a hold. You don't have to turn onto the heading for the thumb method to work. So cool to hear that the podcast helped you through the private. Good luck on the instrument!
Today, January 18, 2120 Zulu, it clicked. I was having a hard time understanding initially because the book I’m studying instructs to follow the “inbound leg” from the perimeter of the compass card (the radial) where as here its expressed as the “outbound heading”. Same thing, different words!
I don't know why there are so many convoluted rules of thumb for figuring out holding with pencils, thumbs or whatever. How about just look at the holding pattern (or visualize it) and then look at your heading when you're direct to the holding fix. Then decide the most logical entry of the three: direct, parallel and teardrop. If you can teardrop (within 45 degrees of teardrop heading), then do that. If not, then turn the shortest direction to the holding leg. If it will put you well on the non-protected side, then just turn the long way around to the protected side. No need for thumbs, pencils or weird techniques. Just look at it and do what makes sense. 3:08 is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. He even says "you can see when you look at it this way it's a parallel entry". So why do the stupid heading indicator trick. Just LOOK AT IT THAT WAY all the time. You can always draw it out, look at the plate, or just visualize the holding pattern. You don't need to stare at your heading indicator and try some convoluted method that you could easily screw up.
The second example says to hold On the 330 Radial. This would be the inbound leg, not the outbound leg. So isn't the outbound the 155 radial. This would maket entry a teardrop??
The only error I hear is that you mention proving that a hypothesis is true when in reality, that's never done. Evidence either supports your theory or it doesn't. And I'm just splitting hairs! This is a fantastic video! Thank you!J
Thanks Jackson, good catch. There is another method of "visualizing the hold" that I use first and I consider this check my redundancy but you're right I never mention that in this video. So although I use this to prove my other hypothesis true, it's misleading with only this info. Hey! You found a real mistake :)
Hi Vlad, not sure I totally understand but if it were on the 330 degree radial it would be, by definition, NW of the VOR. Radials always move out from the station and the 330 degree radial off the VOR is to the North West. Did I misunderstand or does that help?
If holding at a VOR, it is impossible to Hold SE of the VOR on the 330 Radial. However if holding at an Intersection, it is possible to hold SE of the intersection on the 330 radial. In that case the Outbound is 150 and you use 150 to determine your entry.
Like it... but why generalize with the thumb? Isn’t 20 degrees up and down from horizontal (I.e. 3 and 9 o clock) the precise cutoff and easy enough to see on the heading indicator?
Yes, when using the thumb method. Get the outbound course (lots of room for error there so double check) and then start on the outside of the HI moving in toward the center
in the last example his course was 175 degrees(to abc vor) means hes on 355 radial.. which means hes coming from north west. and in the example tower says " hold nw of the abc vor on the 330 radial" .. hes normally at 355 radial and tower says go ahead 330 radial (means pilot need to make right heading to 150 degrees "COURSE") and when ever he intercept(normally tower need to give distance for seperation 7dme or 15dme or 5 dme exaple is so bad) 330 radial tower wants pilot to make non standard (left turn).. in instrument flight u makin standard 180 degrees turning while holding.with 150 course (immediately after he intercept 330 radial) he make left turn means(still need distance information without it this is bullshit) ( reciprocal) now his outbound radial (to fix its raidla because hes moving away from fix (from)) 330 degrees radial and when he turn to inbound his course or track is 150 degrees.. . and about entry sector..pilots course was 175 degrees now 150 degrees and this is left turn. he will do direct entery without doubt.. between 150 degrees and 40 degrees (radials) its paralell and between 150 and 220 radials its tear drop and last between 220 radials and 40 radials (220 to 360 and 360 to 40) its direct enter.. its up to chart and holding pattern ( standar or nonstandar) if outbound leg cuts vor u follow outbound radia means your now inbound is headingl) but if outbound leg do not cuts vor its outbound heading...and your inbound is now course. for your information.. and there is nothing in avivation such as inbound radials......dont fuck people minds. example is so bad.. for heavy traffic seperations tower sometimes gives u imaginary fix and want you to make holding around it. with out dme means distance information this is big waste of example... at 03:07 aircraft coming from north-east but at 03:23 indicator shows that hes heading and course (homing) showing 175 means he should come from north west.. hes calculation is right its paralel but at 03:07 he fucked people minds..
takoz27 wow! You have it all wrong. Holds are based on one minute inbound to the fix (1.5 minutes at higher altitudes). In the last example you are flying 175 degrees directly to the VOR. Hold is non-standard (left turns). Outbound heading is 330 degrees. This falls in the "direct" sector of the HI. Hit the fix and make a left turn to 330 degrees. Fly outbound for 1 minute (in "no wind condition") then turn left to 150 to intercept the 150 inbound course (330 radial) back to the fix which should be 1 minute. Outbound time is adjusted +\- 1 minute to achieve a 1 minute inbound. Ask your instructor for help before you get upset at this video author. Try to be a little more professional ok?
"at 03:07 aircraft coming from north-east but at 03:23 indicator shows that hes heading and course (homing) showing 175 means he should come from north west.. hes calculation is right its paralel but at 03:07 he fucked people minds.." I think you're confused by the fact that the animated airplane came from the top right of the screen, which is North not Northeast. This is confusing because where we are in California has the coast to the SW and not directly W.
The guy that created this video failed to make it clear that the HI has to be pointed at holding fix for this system to work. HI heading indicators or compasses give no indication what radial you are on. He could have been more clear where the second example was located in relation to holding fix. He also used the same image of HI 175d in both explanations which probably led to confusion. What if in the second example the aircraft was say, southwest of holding fix with a heading of 175d. Answer: the system wouldn't work unless he turned and headed directly at holding fix. Step 1: With this system, dial in VOR with a "To" and CDI centered. Then turn to a heading that is on top of VOR. Keep tweaking CDI to center, whatever, just so long as CDI is centered with "TO" indication and top of VOR and HI are the same. Step 2: Then, once on heading (HI) that goes directly to holding fix (without WCA), use the above mentioned method.
MyTech I might do that thanks. Did you see the more recent episode on holding in the IFR playlist on my channel. It moves fast but it’s more recent and has a lot in it if you can follow.
when you are holding at a VOR the radial will always match the outbound heading and your inbound course will always be the reciprocal of the radial. Remember with holds ... the outbound has no course guidance and the heading is essentially "suggested" to get you back to the start of the 1 min inbound holding course.
Let's make it easier. Fly to the fix and turn to the outbound heading: So for a direct entry, you fly to the fix and turn in the correct direction (left or right), outbound, then after 1 minute, you turn back to the fix. If you're parallel, from the fix turn immediately to the outbound heading then outbound for 1 minute, and turn into the holding side back to the fix. If you're teardrop, first turn to the outbound heading, then immediately 30 degrees into the holding side. Fly outbound for 1 minutes, then turn in the opposite direction back to the fix. No thumbs or pencils.
There may be no errors in this video other than the fact that it is obtuse and no thumbs were used in it. Good thing I am not going for my IFR rating; I would be more confoosed by this.
i want you to find the correct reciprocal for 330 radial and then you can challenge the holding pattern entry this gentleman is showing on his video ;) peace...
no, radials always move out from the VOR, inbound courses always move inbound to the fix. If the fix is the VOR, they are always opposite. Use caution though when the fix is at an intersections defined by an outbound VOR radial, in that case they may be the same
Nope... A radial is a radial is a radial....They are unique places in space that emanate outbound from VOR's. A radial is never the "outbound leg" of a holding pattern. It might share the same heading as the outbound leg, but a radial is always the inbound leg with a reciprocal heading, be it a holding pattern with non-standard left turns or right turns.
Why not just forget about saying "outbound heading", and just use the radial number? Whatever radial you are assigned to hold on is the outbound heading. Why confuse it?
Outbound means you're traveling away, and inbound means youre traveling towards. It's just to differentiate it. There are Vortacs, VOR's, ndb, gps fix, etc. Inbound 090 is the same heading as outbound 180 radial, it just means you've passed over it. I personally ALWAYS just set it to the heading I want, and check the flag to see if I'm inbound or outbound, and it's easier for me to get a picture of where I am in my head. (Heading, inbound/outbound, and distance/dme)
You must always use the Outbound Heading which be different than the Radial if holding at an intersection. Example: "Hold West of ACME intersection on the ABC 090 Degree Radial." In this case 270 is the Outbound heading, not 090.
This seems wrong to me. I have been doing this and rather than using the reciprocal, I look at the location of the radial on which the hold is to be held, and determine where it is in the diagram, and that tells me what type of hold. This video confused me.
Hey gusy, not sure if I follow your confusion but we determine the entry using the outbound heading because not all holds are at VORs and you don't want to have multiple ways of doing something. If you visualize the 'fix' in the center of the instrument then you have to start on the outside and fly inbound. This keeps everything standard, does that help?
omg! just head vor and start turning correct way do full circles and if you flying that area nobody care are you holding pattern lol. noone fying there same time
This system "works fine" but the video is a rather limited explanation and has a few omissions. # 1: That is not the published "holding pattern" for Stockton. It is a "Hold In lieu of Procedure Turn". Yeah, I know, but nuance counts in aviation. It is irrelevant to explanation and holding entry. Most people get what you are saying. # 2: Common knowledge: Heading indicators do not show your position in relation to fixes or vor's. If you would have mentioned in video that the HI (nose of airplane) has to be pointed directly at holding fix (be it dme fix, vor fix, gps fix, whatever) you would have eliminated a lot of confusion in the comments section. I have listened to video 4 times now and it is not really clear that the HI (aircraft) has to be pointed at holding fix ( with no WCA wind correction etc). Maybe in "your" mind that was a given, but it helps to be clear. You also used the same image of HI (175d) with both explanations which could also have led to confusion in comments section. This technique works fine if used properly. It doesn't work if the HI is not pointed at holding fix and WCA is taken into consideration. Thanks for the video. No offense.
To be fair David, in a non-radar environment they could use the hold in lieu of the procedure turn as a holding pattern and stack airplanes up so that each plane that flies the approach out of the bottom moves everyone above them down. It's not the Missed approach hold, but it could certainly be a hold you are given instructions to enter and told to stay in, which is fine for the purposes of this video. Your point on HI is taken. I consider this to be negligible but should probably have said so in the video. Thanks
Some folks have been posting comments saying there is an error in this video. There is not. If you feel there is, you don't understand something. Please email me and I'll set it straight for you. thx
Why would the 330 radial be the “outbound” leg in the second example? Thx for your help
jobonekanobe Because 330 outbound means you're heading 330 and away from the vortac. If you are 330 radial inbound, you're actually heading 150 ON the 330 radial, going towards it.
Avery Kucan but if we got an instruction like hold at abc vor 330 r 15 dme 330 inbound things will be different right? I know this doesn't make so much sense but I get confused when I get this instruction at simulator today
Mert Gümrü 330 imbound means you should be on the 330 radial, imbound, which means you're supposed to head 150 and then hold at the dme point.
Avery Kucan I mean 330 inbound for the fix at the dme not at vor so doesn't it mean that hdg will be 330 as well?
Rather than the thumb method, I was taught to put a pencil over the heading indicator in the same 20 degree offset. Either way works fine. My instructor was an ex-Delta Captain and he taught me well. The examiner was very impressed and told me to thank the instructor for him.
I just saw your most recent holding video and half way through I remember this one. This video helped me in 2015 to understand and visualize holding patters on the heading indicator. Some friends thought I was crazy on the steps, but when I explained them this same method they had to swallow their pride and apologize. Thank you so much for your time on teaching us tips, tricks and ways to improve on our flying!
Awesome Jose, you're most welcome and thank you for sharing!
What a fantastic method. Wish I was taught this years ago back when I did my initial instrument training. Thanks for posting!
I've watched at least 10 videos on holding patterns and this one is the best one if you want to be able to answer the questions correct on the FAA exam. Thanks!
I don't see anything wrong with this video. I was taught this method during my instrument rating and 9 years later, it still works beautifully, even in commercial flying :) Nice video!
thanks!
There are many ways to explain holding patterns. This one is the best for me by far, even though if others try to explain the same thing with other words, this video makes the "click" that I need in my mind. Thanks very much!!
Without reading all the remarks, decades ago I was taught the technique of placing my index finger pointed straight up at the top of the HSI “right finger for right hand holding” and closing my other fingers while my thumb points straight out. In other words a hand pointing with his index finger. Now look at where the outbound heading falls. The range between your index finger and thumb represents teardrop entry as it’s roughly 70 degrees. On the left side of your index finger represents the 110 degrees so a parallel entry and finally anything falling outside that is a direct entry. There’s no math or calculations, just look at where the heading falls. And again, for a left hand holding pattern use your left hand. I used and told fellow pilot’s about it for our six month sim checks and it is a handy thing to use and it’s quick and accurate. Happy flying.
Yep, that's the same technique (with one extra finger) and it works! I like it as a redundant check because it doesn't require thinking and, well, redundancy is always a good thing. thx
This is a Great Tidbit! Thanks..... and I am glad you made a point to say OUTBOUND (The hold- on Radial) As what to look for on the Heading Indicator... I was almost confused for a sec.
I too was confused because I wasn't looking at it correctly. It's a good thing we can post notes for dummies like me! Great job.
got my check tomorrow, great vid to brush up on!
Techniques are like shoes...most of us have several different kinds. I like this one. Super simple...easy to remember. Even works in a heli. Thanks, great video.
I was taught for left turn use left hand and for right turns (standard) use right hand... stick out your thumb, index finger, and pinky finger. Lay hand across HI with thumb horizontal as you state and area between the thumb and index finger - parallel entry, area between index finger and pinky finger - teardrop entry and area by palm is a direct entry. And a good mnemonic to remember when copying holding info, use DFRATE - Direction, Fix, Radial, Altitude, Turn, EFC (Expect Further Clearance Time). Another great video as usual!
Brilliant! Thank you.
Very clear to understand. Many thanks !!!
Both examples are right. great video!
Practice practice practice! Realy nice video iam not a pilot but now i undestand how to choose the way of entrance to the holding pattern.
It looks like Captain Joe got plenty of inspiration from this video, even the BAM made it over to his recent video :)
Thank you for the great videos, TFP!
@enick737 Only if you are arrogant enough to believe that the uploader was the only person in the entire universe to use this technique. 🙄
Fantastic!! Thanks so much!
this guy deserves a medal
perfectly agree with almra...good job to the author...different situation that could happen, holding on a hdg (keep outband), holding on radial (you already have outband)
#TFP Wow. That is very cool. I love seeing these methods. It definitely seams like something that needs to be practiced before it is needed.
You guys saved my life. Thanks so much for the video
You're welcome Peter!
Hi there, very useful video. thx from Spain.
life saver , thanks
Great video!
Great explanation! Thanks
you're most welcome!
Hi peter the reciprocal that you mentioned (150 degrees) is the course TO the station therefore the INBOUND leg. a radial is a straight line from the station which means that if you fly at a heading of 330 degrees then you are flying away from the station which means you will be flying outbound.
Brilliant
150 radial. 330-200=130+20=150. Any number under 180 add 200 then subtract 20. Any number over 180 subtract 200 then add 20 to get the reciprocal. Hope you find this formula as helpful as I do.
Cheers, Ken
Very easy to remember! Thx a lot.
Britta T. You’re welcome!
Great!!!!
Thanks
This is the first time I truly understood the thumb method
Thanks.
great video, thanks.
Sure! It was fun to put this out there
Exactly how I do it!
*I will fact check this with my CFI once I start proper IFR flight training, but I want to take my written this December...im in regular school now, but I gotta study so I can take that IFR and have it out of the way!!*
Good luck on your written! This method works quite well in practice
Excellent.
🙏🏻🙌
Great idea Captain keep it up
I got one confusion question.
I wonder which of the two ways is faster and helpful to land a job at an airline , is it by holding a CPL IR ME or by holding a Multi-Crew Pilot License ?
as you know that pretty much all airlines need pilots with experience and so on.
Thank you sir
That's what I was thinking, but I was also thinking I got it wrong myself! I was scratching my head a long time before I read your comments, LOL.
Working on my instrument ticket right now. Stuff like this is priceless. My goal is to get the basics down locally and then I hope to travel to Northern Ca and hook up with you and do some training in some real IMC conditions with you. (Not much in the way of actual IMC in Lake Havasu, AZ). To try and make it more realistic doing the majority of my training under the hood at night. Love your style of training and I’m sucking up as much of it as I can from your videos. Thanks so much for posting stuff like this!
Come up anytime! Especially the summer. We get great opportunities to practice low approaches in actual IMC in the summer months along the coast. I like your strategy of training at night in AZ. I'm happy to hear you're getting a lot from the videos, keep it up -- your hard work will pay off!
The Finer Points I’m flying up to Watsonville in about a week. If I have time I might try to blow over to San Carlos just to see if you’re around and meet up. :-)
Sean Mulligan sure! Just be sure to let me know when you’re headed up - often when I’m at the airport I’m out flying and wouldn’t want to miss you
The Finer Points sure will. Obviously I need VFR weather and checking weather this morning it looks like it might be in short supply around 20th and 21st. I’ll be sure to give ya call if it looks like it’s gonna work out. :-). Looking forward to meeting you whenever it works out. Really like your stuff and he stuff you’ve done with Steve @Flight Chops. :-)
Very good trick! I'll be using it!
mpl is usually done by airliners themselves for their student pilot. it's like a more direct way to be a co-pilot than CPL. but if you learn a license by spending your own money, then u should choose CPL.
And this applies in all cases, no matter what direction is at the top of the HSI/VOR.
Got you
If you’re confused as you think this method looks odd compared to drawing it on a chart, Try drawing it on a scrap paper as you would the chart in a dark marker. Then flip the paper over to see the back side of the paper with that dark marker showing through. Draw your HSI about this and you’ll see that it isn’t mismatched, rather the way you learned to draw it on the paper is the opposite side of the same thing as this HSI “thumb” method. At any rate, put the “Why” into each entry with Parallel to avoid the unprotected side while Tear Drop to create turning room so as not to fly into the unprotected side in the subsequent turn. For the HSI method, I personally don’t use a thumb, rather I use a mnemonic with “standard turn is right, right is light” thus popping the right side up twenty degrees, or “left turn lift left” popping the left up twenty degrees.
Smart
On the first part you said hold on the reciprocal of the hold and on the next part you held on the inbound leg?
In reply to Ken Marshall
As Being Australian commercial pilot to work out reciprocal bearing or radial if your bearing or radial is 180 (240) then you subtract 2 then add 2 (240 - 2 (040)240 + 2 (060))
189 (369) --- Doesnt always work.
My CFII taught me this but mental math while flying single pilot IFR is a distraction and its not something I recommend. I just remember runway alignments add 5 if need be or just look at the dam dg or obs, answer is right in front of you. Keep it simple
Jack Grady, you are correct. Teardrop would be the appropriate entry. Hope the video producer recognizes the error and makes the change.
I'm agree with DavidGTI is not clear which one i have tto choose ....inbound or outbound?
If ATC wants me to hold on 330R with 180HDG is direct even the example before ....
During a practice IFR written test, this was one of the questions asked: You arrive at the 15 DME fix on a heading of 350°. Which holding pattern correctly complies with the ATC clearance below, and what is the recommended entry procedure?
'...HOLD WEST OF THE ONE FIVE DME FIX ON THE ZERO NINE ZERO RADIAL OF THE ABC VORTAC, FIVE MILE LEGS, LEFT TURNS...'
My answer, based on this video as I understand it, would be a parallel entry. Yet, there wasn't even a choice for parallel; so I just picked teardrop thinking I had a 50/50 chance of being right. Still got it wrong, as the correct answer was apparently direct entry, which now has me a very confused. If anyone could enlighten me on this, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you.
UPDATE: I just rewatched the video and caught the part that said you're looking for the "outbound heading" (2:25). The scenario tells you to hold on the 090 radial. However, I just realized that 090 is outbound from the VOR, NOT from the 15 DME fix. Thus, the outbound heading from the 15 DME fix would be 270. Taking that into consideration, 270 does fall within the "direct entry" area. Am I correct in my reassessment? Thank you in advance.
You have to turn toward the fix to do this procedure - to see it oriented to the top of your heading indicator. Or, without turning yet, you have to imagine turning to the heading to the fix, then doing this procedure rotated to that heading.
There's is absolutely no error in what your saying...apparently everyone thinks there an expert in social media. My CFII who is a retired airline pilot taught me this as well as drawing it out on a piece of paper for additional situational awareness.
Thanks Robert, it's nice to get that feedback!
This can be even easier. Forget the entire teardrop option and do all except the direct entry by parallel entry. Fly outbound on the radial once reaching the station. In one minute, turn to the protected side and go 120 degrees. (Assuming no wind correction needed). You will end up back on the inbound radial and then make your turn when reaching the station.
Remember: you are holding on the 330 Radial. The radial radiates FROM the VOR. You will be flying the reciprocal - a 150 TO the radial on that inbound leg. Makes sense?
Ben Ma and Sunny441 and Marcelodtise and others are correct - he gets it wrong on the last example. The first example uses the OUTBOUND track on the hold to decide sector entry method. In the last example he says to hold on the 330 redial (which is from the station) and so he should have used the reciprocal to that which is 150 degrees and that would give a "Sector 2" (in Australia) or "tear drop" (in USA) entry. But he stuffs it up and looks at the 330 degree point on the heading indicator.
Peter Frederick Peter, his examples are perfectly correct. Talk it over with your instructor and he/she can explain it to you.
Jason, In the last example, you have on your heading indicator a 175 heading assuming you have twisted and then identified your need to turn to that VOR/Location and then once you are on that heading, then you do the thumb? Am I correct? My problem that took me a few views of this was each example had you on a 175 degree heading. (thanks for videos, your podcasts got me through my private, now on my way to the IFR!)
Hi Mark, not sure I understand the question. The entry can be visualized when you are pointed at the fix - and the thumb method works then as well. For example, in practice I often point the student at a VOR that is 30 miles away and work on entries as we move toward it until we finally get there an enter a hold. You don't have to turn onto the heading for the thumb method to work. So cool to hear that the podcast helped you through the private. Good luck on the instrument!
Today, January 18, 2120 Zulu, it clicked. I was having a hard time understanding initially because the book I’m studying instructs to follow the “inbound leg” from the perimeter of the compass card (the radial) where as here its expressed as the “outbound heading”. Same thing, different words!
The video is not wrong. Remember your looking for outbound heading. The outbound heading is 330. Same as the radial
I don't know why there are so many convoluted rules of thumb for figuring out holding with pencils, thumbs or whatever. How about just look at the holding pattern (or visualize it) and then look at your heading when you're direct to the holding fix. Then decide the most logical entry of the three: direct, parallel and teardrop. If you can teardrop (within 45 degrees of teardrop heading), then do that. If not, then turn the shortest direction to the holding leg. If it will put you well on the non-protected side, then just turn the long way around to the protected side. No need for thumbs, pencils or weird techniques. Just look at it and do what makes sense. 3:08 is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. He even says "you can see when you look at it this way it's a parallel entry". So why do the stupid heading indicator trick. Just LOOK AT IT THAT WAY all the time. You can always draw it out, look at the plate, or just visualize the holding pattern. You don't need to stare at your heading indicator and try some convoluted method that you could easily screw up.
The second example says to hold On the 330 Radial. This would be the inbound leg, not the outbound leg. So isn't the outbound the 155 radial. This would maket entry a teardrop??
The only error I hear is that you mention proving that a hypothesis is true when in reality, that's never done. Evidence either supports your theory or it doesn't. And I'm just splitting hairs! This is a fantastic video! Thank you!J
Thanks Jackson, good catch. There is another method of "visualizing the hold" that I use first and I consider this check my redundancy but you're right I never mention that in this video. So although I use this to prove my other hypothesis true, it's misleading with only this info. Hey! You found a real mistake :)
Hi,good qustion for you.If would ATC give -hold SE ,radial 330...
What entry you would choose,why and how you would perform it.
Thank you.
Hi Vlad, not sure I totally understand but if it were on the 330 degree radial it would be, by definition, NW of the VOR. Radials always move out from the station and the 330 degree radial off the VOR is to the North West. Did I misunderstand or does that help?
If holding at a VOR, it is impossible to Hold SE of the VOR on the 330 Radial. However if holding at an Intersection, it is possible to hold SE of the intersection on the 330 radial. In that case the Outbound is 150 and you use 150 to determine your entry.
Like it... but why generalize with the thumb? Isn’t 20 degrees up and down from horizontal (I.e. 3 and 9 o clock) the precise cutoff and easy enough to see on the heading indicator?
I would think so. Over time that what everybody does anyway, the thumb is just a crutch. The key is that you learn to see it
Question...Does the heading indicator always have to have south up?
It does not matter what direction is in the indicator.
always have to use the outbound course?
Yes, when using the thumb method. Get the outbound course (lots of room for error there so double check) and then start on the outside of the HI moving in toward the center
in the last example his course was 175 degrees(to abc vor) means hes on 355 radial.. which means hes coming from north west. and in the example tower says " hold nw of the abc vor on the 330 radial" .. hes normally at 355 radial and tower says go ahead 330 radial (means pilot need to make right heading to 150 degrees "COURSE") and when ever he intercept(normally tower need to give distance for seperation 7dme or 15dme or 5 dme exaple is so bad) 330 radial tower wants pilot to make non standard (left turn).. in instrument flight u makin standard 180 degrees turning while holding.with 150 course (immediately after he intercept 330 radial) he make left turn means(still need distance information without it this is bullshit) ( reciprocal) now his outbound radial (to fix its raidla because hes moving away from fix (from)) 330 degrees radial and when he turn to inbound his course or track is 150 degrees.. . and about entry sector..pilots course was 175 degrees now 150 degrees and this is left turn. he will do direct entery without doubt.. between 150 degrees and 40 degrees (radials) its paralell and between 150 and 220 radials its tear drop and last between 220 radials and 40 radials (220 to 360 and 360 to 40) its direct enter..
its up to chart and holding pattern ( standar or nonstandar) if outbound leg cuts vor u follow outbound radia means your now inbound is headingl) but if outbound leg do not cuts vor its outbound heading...and your inbound is now course. for your information..
and there is nothing in avivation such as inbound radials......dont fuck people minds.
example is so bad.. for heavy traffic seperations tower sometimes gives u imaginary fix and want you to make holding around it. with out dme means distance information this is big waste of example...
at 03:07 aircraft coming from north-east but at 03:23 indicator shows that hes heading and course (homing) showing 175 means he should come from north west.. hes calculation is right its paralel but at 03:07 he fucked people minds..
takoz27 wow! You have it all wrong. Holds are based on one minute inbound to the fix (1.5 minutes at higher altitudes). In the last example you are flying 175 degrees directly to the VOR. Hold is non-standard (left turns). Outbound heading is 330 degrees. This falls in the "direct" sector of the HI. Hit the fix and make a left turn to 330 degrees. Fly outbound for 1 minute (in "no wind condition") then turn left to 150 to intercept the 150 inbound course (330 radial) back to the fix which should be 1 minute. Outbound time is adjusted +\- 1 minute to achieve a 1 minute inbound. Ask your instructor for help before you get upset at this video author. Try to be a little more professional ok?
"at 03:07 aircraft coming from north-east but at 03:23 indicator shows that hes heading and course (homing) showing 175 means he should come from north west.. hes calculation is right its paralel but at 03:07 he fucked people minds.."
I think you're confused by the fact that the animated airplane came from the top right of the screen, which is North not Northeast. This is confusing because where we are in California has the coast to the SW and not directly W.
The guy that created this video failed to make it clear that the HI has to be pointed at holding fix for this system to work. HI heading indicators or compasses give no indication what radial you are on. He could have been more clear where the second example was located in relation to holding fix. He also used the same image of HI 175d in both explanations which probably led to confusion. What if in the second example the aircraft was say, southwest of holding fix with a heading of 175d. Answer: the system wouldn't work unless he turned and headed directly at holding fix.
Step 1: With this system, dial in VOR with a "To" and CDI centered. Then turn to a heading that is on top of VOR. Keep tweaking CDI to center, whatever, just so long as CDI is centered with "TO" indication and top of VOR and HI are the same.
Step 2: Then, once on heading (HI) that goes directly to holding fix (without WCA), use the above mentioned method.
Do you have to be flying direct to the vor before you do this?
yes, it's based on your current heading and the holding course so you must be pointed at the fix
There's NO way it's that easy. Is it really? Game changer..
It's totally that easy
I would learn to 'see' it first, though, and use this technique as a confirmation. There is not much situational awareness in this approach.
I see...thanks for the tip, and this super-helpful video!
Thanks FareedN!
Maybe extend this a minute or two with some approach to the fix other than due south. Just to make it more clear.
MyTech I might do that thanks. Did you see the more recent episode on holding in the IFR playlist on my channel. It moves fast but it’s more recent and has a lot in it if you can follow.
Why is the 330 the “Outbound Heading “ ?
when you are holding at a VOR the radial will always match the outbound heading and your inbound course will always be the reciprocal of the radial. Remember with holds ... the outbound has no course guidance and the heading is essentially "suggested" to get you back to the start of the 1 min inbound holding course.
Let's make it easier. Fly to the fix and turn to the outbound heading: So for a direct entry, you fly to the fix and turn in the correct direction (left or right), outbound, then after 1 minute, you turn back to the fix. If you're parallel, from the fix turn immediately to the outbound heading then outbound for 1 minute, and turn into the holding side back to the fix. If you're teardrop, first turn to the outbound heading, then immediately 30 degrees into the holding side. Fly outbound for 1 minutes, then turn in the opposite direction back to the fix. No thumbs or pencils.
There may be no errors in this video other than the fact that it is obtuse and no thumbs were used in it. Good thing I am not going for my IFR rating; I would be more confoosed by this.
ya, still don't get it..... Maybe a visual to show the little airplane flying into the hold?????
we show that at 3:03
This plane is to big and does not fly into the first leg of the hold.
i want you to find the correct reciprocal for 330 radial and then you can challenge the holding pattern entry this gentleman is showing on his video ;) peace...
when they ask you to hold on a radial-isnt that the inbound course to the fix?
No it isn't..
no, radials always move out from the VOR, inbound courses always move inbound to the fix. If the fix is the VOR, they are always opposite. Use caution though when the fix is at an intersections defined by an outbound VOR radial, in that case they may be the same
I don't get it, why he marked 180 degree position, and not the HDG of 150 degrees?
Can't believe this video is 10 yrs old
Was that an “N” model at the beginning?
''Radial" = OUTBOUND Leg
"Course" = INBOUND Leg
Nope... A radial is a radial is a radial....They are unique places in space that emanate outbound from VOR's. A radial is never the "outbound leg" of a holding pattern. It might share the same heading as the outbound leg, but a radial is always the inbound leg with a reciprocal heading, be it a holding pattern with non-standard left turns or right turns.
Why not just forget about saying "outbound heading", and just use the radial number?
Whatever radial you are assigned to hold on is the outbound heading. Why confuse it?
Probably only because holding should be standard and they are not all done at VORs. Some are intersection fixes or GPS waypoints, NDBs etc.
Outbound means you're traveling away, and inbound means youre traveling towards. It's just to differentiate it. There are Vortacs, VOR's, ndb, gps fix, etc. Inbound 090 is the same heading as outbound 180 radial, it just means you've passed over it.
I personally ALWAYS just set it to the heading I want, and check the flag to see if I'm inbound or outbound, and it's easier for me to get a picture of where I am in my head. (Heading, inbound/outbound, and distance/dme)
You must always use the Outbound Heading which be different than the Radial if holding at an intersection. Example: "Hold West of ACME intersection on the ABC 090 Degree Radial." In this case 270 is the Outbound heading, not 090.
This seems wrong to me. I have been doing this and rather than using the reciprocal, I look at the location of the radial on which the hold is to be held, and determine where it is in the diagram, and that tells me what type of hold. This video confused me.
I agree. The radial should be the inbound heading and not the reciprocal if I am not wrong. Will double check again.
Hey gusy, not sure if I follow your confusion but we determine the entry using the outbound heading because not all holds are at VORs and you don't want to have multiple ways of doing something. If you visualize the 'fix' in the center of the instrument then you have to start on the outside and fly inbound. This keeps everything standard, does that help?
I don't understand one iota of holding patterns😂, but like watching something that I have no understanding of.
But why do you need the thumb? Why don't just turning ?
Yeah, the thumb is really just a "crutch" to subdivide the circle visually. Over time, you won't need to put it up there
Could someone use a grape instead of their thumb?
Geeks. I just got it.
Oh crap,I should have read ALL the comments first. My results are the same.teardrop entry
omg! just head vor and start turning correct way do full circles and if you flying that area nobody care are you holding pattern lol. noone fying there same time
That's a good way to fail a check ride...
34 people are not AOPA pilots.
Ohhh... that’s a thumb?
This system "works fine" but the video is a rather limited explanation and has a few omissions.
# 1: That is not the published "holding pattern" for Stockton. It is a "Hold In lieu of Procedure Turn". Yeah, I know, but nuance counts in aviation. It is irrelevant to explanation and holding entry. Most people get what you are saying.
# 2: Common knowledge: Heading indicators do not show your position in relation to fixes or vor's. If you would have mentioned in video that the HI (nose of airplane) has to be pointed directly at holding fix (be it dme fix, vor fix, gps fix, whatever) you would have eliminated a lot of confusion in the comments section. I have listened to video 4 times now and it is not really clear that the HI (aircraft) has to be pointed at holding fix ( with no WCA wind correction etc). Maybe in "your" mind that was a given, but it helps to be clear. You also used the same image of HI (175d) with both explanations which could also have led to confusion in comments section.
This technique works fine if used properly. It doesn't work if the HI is not pointed at holding fix and WCA is taken into consideration. Thanks for the video. No offense.
To be fair David, in a non-radar environment they could use the hold in lieu of the procedure turn as a holding pattern and stack airplanes up so that each plane that flies the approach out of the bottom moves everyone above them down. It's not the Missed approach hold, but it could certainly be a hold you are given instructions to enter and told to stay in, which is fine for the purposes of this video. Your point on HI is taken. I consider this to be negligible but should probably have said so in the video. Thanks
That's really amazing video, thanks a lot.
Thanks Roy!