In George's original draft for fire and blood Harwin and Rhaenyra were married so their children were legitimate and the Greens still usurped Rhaenyra so if Rhaenyra had legitimate children the war would've happened regardless.
The Greens did not usurp Rhaenyra since she was not the legitimate heir. Aegon, Aemond, Daeron are all trueborn sons of Viserys and therefore come before Rhaenyra (even Daemon) in the line of succession. Even little Jaehaerys and Maelor come before Rhaenyra and Daemon. Rhaenyra was named when Viserys had no living sons and scorned Daemon. Although, Viserys didn't disinherit Daemon so it's still debatable even then whether Rhaenyra ever truly was the heir. 20 years later the situation drastically changed. Rhaenyra and Viserys did not do the necessary law reform or royal progresses or oath consolidations to ensure she would ascend the throne as rightful heir. Her first 3 sons being bastards was just further fuel to the fire. It's also treason which is firm cause for disinheritance... Aegon was the true heir since the moment he was born by centuries of Andal, First Men and Valyrian law.
@@browniebearyeah and before the blonde haired purple eyed sister fuckers rocked up on giant fire breathing lizards and fucking blasted everybody until they submitted to one king, there literally was no "realm" for their traditions violated because for centuries upon centuries the andals and first men were 7 independent kingdoms, not one unified realm. And before that marrying your sister/brother was unthinkable and punishable by death. The targaryns changed a lot about the land when they came to power, which gave them full authority to name whoever the fuck they wanted as their heir was regardless of what the traditions were before they got there because they literally wrote the laws of the new realm they created. I mean hell, vicerys became king because of exactly that reason, the sitting king having the ability to choose which of his descendants would inherit the throne and him passing up the legally defined rightful heir for him. so by the time of the dance there was already precedent in history for the king passing over the quote unquote "rightful" heir in favor of someone else. There is no getting around the fact that not only as king he had full authority to pick his heir regardless of westeros tradition and he chose his daughter but also had every lord in the realm swear to recognize her as the rightful heir which means that even if the previous tradition was only men can inherit, all the lords of westeros agreed suspend that tradition at least this one time because the king declared her as heir. So you have no argument my friend, by every legal precedent and definition she is the legitimate heir.
@@browniebear Still, Rhaenyra was the one Viserys OFFICIALLY named his heir, her claim is indeed stronger than Alicent's sons who Viserys didn't name anyone of them his heir. Viserys didn't even thought of replacing Rhaenyra with Aegon. Aegon still indeed the one usurping Rhaenyra's throne.
in the original draft both Aegon and Rheanyra where full blooded siblings with Rheanyra being only a few years older. There was no mentioned of a named heir and it was kinda implied she rebelled. The purpose of the dance before George stopped writing the books was to get rid of the dragons and to be a parallel to Arianna Martell plot. It why the dance kept changing and made Rheanyra look better, originally she married Lyonel Strong in one version it was than changed to Jason Lannister than Laenor Velaryon. In addition to that Aegon was no longer her full blooded brother but a half brother, this change also happened with Jaehaerys wife no longer being a Hightower but instead a sister meanwhile the Hightower bride would become Visery second wife. Finally to get around why Rhaenyra and Aegon didn’t just marry he gave them a ten plus year age gap. This is one of the main reasons why the dance is such a massive mess from a narrative point of via it George changing things rather than giving fans what they want the sixth book.
Not really. Aegon does not want the Throne. Otto is not there. And Alicent STILL has the hots for Rhaenyra. Like Rhaenyra only needed to play nice to get the Throne.
@@facundogonza5740 Do we forget about Aemond his claim is still stronger than Rhaenyra's he is a second son. That comes for the first daughter. He would never allowed that.
@@lasloapollo4312Exactly, This has nothing to do with her children. This was a hightower power grab The lords of westeros were always trying to dilute the targaryean power . If in this senario her staying in kinglanding would have been dumb. Too risky. Too many assasins. Unlike retreating to dragonstone where most people are pro targaryea
What version are you reading? Because what I read was that everybody at court knew Rhaenyra had a crush on Ser Criston/was infatuated with him. Alicent did nothing more than point out a legitimate concern that Rhaenyra's crush could be taken advantage of. Of course, it's innocent on Rhaenyra's part. But Alicent was subject to rumors as a 15 year old when she did nothing more than read to Jaehaerys.
@@kosyudochukwu1414 wdym. It has to do with the fact that if Raenyra had trueborn kids there would still be rumors that they are bastards, no matter what she did
@@slvaltva1392 no. There wouldn’t be rumors about her children being bastards no matter what she did. That’s stupid and ignorant to say such. They are basing it off of PHENOTYPES. And they’re right because they are bastards and they look like their father, Harwin Strong. If Rhaenyra’s heirs were her kids from daemon nobody would call her heirs bastards because they wouldn’t be bastards.
Okay, yes, we KNOW that Jace, Luc, and Joffrey aren't Laenor's kids. HOWEVER, you can't actually tell that just from looking at them like everyone says on the show. Their mother Rhaenyra is 3/4 Targaryan and 1/4 Arryn (Arryns are known to have sandy brown hair). Laenor has a very light complexion and is 1/2 Velaryan, 1/4 Targaryen, and 1/4 Baratheon (Baratheons are known to have black hair. In fact, in Fire & Blood, Rhaenys is said to have black hair). It would be completely within the realm of possibility (no pun intended) for Rhaenyra's first 3 sons to have white skin and brown hair and STILL be Laenor's children.
Nah. Laenor had white hair, Rhaenyra had white hair. White hair is the dominant gene. If they were Laenor's sons they would have different complexion and white hair
If one of the kids came out fully white then sure, but all 3!?! Are you kidding me, probability wise at least one of the kids should have brownish skin and white hair
@@Doffythegoat yea but all 3 came out with brown hair. They’re bastards. Also, there’s a stronger chance of all three coming out with white hair if they were truly the sons of laenor than all 3 coming out with brown hair if they were sons of laenor. Much stronger chance
@@kosyudochukwu1414 White hair isnt dominant, especially when theres Baratheon genes in there too. By established genetics the strong boys should look how they look if Laenor is their father.
I can see Harwin being number one bodyguard for the boys, they may not be lovers but he may still be devoted to Rhaenyra. Harwin and Laenor may even be bros, bonding over training the kids and war stories.
I see in the comments that some people truly believe that if Rhaenyra didn't have bastards, that the war wouldn't have happened. I find it hilarious that. Otto and Alicent were against Rhaenyra BEFORE Rhaenyra had children in both book and show. In episode 3 Otto said to Alicent that Aegon must be King, because he was the 1st born son, Otto wanted his blood on the throne, that's why he pimped out Alicent to the King. Alicent turned on Rhaenyra because she slept with Criston Cole and used that to declare for her son its why she wore green to Rhaenyra's engagement party.
I was about to say before reaching to the end of the video that as long as Otto and the small council are still pro male primogeniture then the dance would happen regardless of how close the kinds are or how close alicent is to rhaenyra
Maybe if Cole would have gotten punished by the King for killing Joffrey, which I don’t understand how he got away without one, Leonor would have moved on and be more present for Rhaenyra and the kids.
@Al4___ not the joust incident remember at rhaenyra and laenors wedding party Cole got mad and killed laenors secret boyfriend in cold blood yeah that joffrey
Yeah, I think you overlooked the fact that high towers are her family and they have a whole different plot regardless on how she might feel about her stepdaughter her duty to her father will come out first, which is why in the books she didn’t join the plot last minute she was part of the plot
Not really. Book Alicent wanted her son on the throne as well and Otto won't be the hand of the king for long because he isn't taking action, he is trying to solve the dance more diplomatically.. Things will be way worse for the Greens when there will be new hand of the king instead of Otto, I don't want to spoil it.😆
The dance may still have happened. The source material has Laenor's mother with dark hair, and the Velaryon family isn't black but look like the Targaryens. In addition to all this, the amount of time that Rhaenyra and Laena and Daemon spent together in the years that Viserys was ruling, Rhaenyra could have easily hidden the fact that Laenor is gay by having more Targaryen looking bastards with Daemon. Marrying her to Laenor made sense to keep his house in the fold, but marrying her to Harwin would have been good to see.
"The source material has Laenor's mother with dark hair, and the Velaryon family isn't black but look like the Targaryens." The Source Material is also not completely accurate because its written from an in universe character years and years after the fact with shotty sources at best while HOTD tells the exact story.
@@SRVaris her mother was a Baratheon. The whole thing with that line is their dark hair. Argon I's (alleged) half brother began that line, with his dark hair. It's also part of why their claim isn't taken as seriously, because not only is she a woman but she doesn't have the typical Targaryen looks. Her son was a Velaryon, whose mother didn't look very Targaryen. You're right that it is written in for context, but it is still from GRRM. Have as many opinions as you want, but the author has final say on what his characters look like. And the princess was dark haired with purple eyes.
With Otto gone, Alicent won't feel pressured to then pressure Aegon into taking the Throne over Rhaenyra. Aegon himself said that he didn't want to supplant Rhaenyra when she was still just Viserys' heir. It leaves Aegon free to abdicate. But the Hightowers could still rally behind Aemond and hold sway over any other houses that also don't approve of any woman sitting on the Iron Throne. I highly doubt whichever Baratheon was head of Storm's End when Rhaenyra sought allies would side with her regardless of whether her children were legitimate or not... which means Aemond would still have a Baratheon bride waiting for him, should he wind up being the last man standing for the inevitable dance 😅
Also! If Alicent had accepted Rhaenyra’s offer, Otto would have no incentive to oppose Rhaenyra’s claim. He incentivized Viserys to pass over Daemon, (how’s that for male primogeniture), to have the opportunity to put his own blood on the throne. He’s ambitious. He didn’t oppose Daemon because he thought Rhaenyra would be a better ruler, he was fearful of someone who disliked him having more power than him. He’s never been concerned with a leader who’s sufficient by merit because he knows his grandson is a r*pist 😃. Both Alicent and Otto are ambitious hypocrites. It’s never been about male primogeniture, it’s about Otto wanting his own on the throne😉
I think he still would try, because he wants a male in the throne. Specifically, one he can control like Aegon (even though that backfired later on but he doesn't know that yet) and also because males are the ones considered to continue the legacy. Jacaerys and Helaena's kids would be seen more as Jace kids and Rhaenyra's grandkids than actually Otto's great grandkids, he would be eclipsed and he doesn't wants that. Their marriage would only buy Rhaenyra time, but if Otto still lives he would for sure keep plotting.
@@notyourproblem474 I agree, the dance would've happened, and I don't think Alicent would want Helaena marrying Jace even if he was legit because she already decided she was declaring for her son before Rhaenyra even had kids, Alicent decided that once she found out Criston Cole slept with Rhaenyra, its why she wore green to the wedding feast.
@@notyourproblem474I don’t think he’d have any backing. Again, if male primogeniture is what the Lords back Otto for, they have no claim to the throne. Otto proposed Aegon to marry Rhaenyra when he was just a child and Rhaenyra would have been the one inheriting the throne as Queen. I agree he’d want to have someone to control, but by the time Rhaenyra proposed Jace to marry Helaena, Otto was not on the council. Literally the entire dance could be avoided by Jace marrying Helaena because Alicent would have no reason to want her father back ie Lionel wouldn’t have killed his brother and father. I honestly don’t think Alicent is ambitious. I think she is scared for her children’s life and is a perpetual victim to the system. If Rhaenyra and her were on good terms, Otto would have no support. He was a hand that was dishonorably released from his job, he’s a second son with no wealth or lands, and has nothing to offer other lords to oppose Rhaenyra’s claim.
do you understand what agnatic-cognatic primogeniture is? There is no hypocrisy there's a reasson why rhaenys and her son laenor had lots of support ie being descended from a more senior line.
Isn’t Laenor a lord? Or at the very least he’s the son of a lord. I feel like the courtyard scene with Ser Criston would play much differently cuz striking a lord is much more heinous than striking a fellow knight.
In the books its alot less clear who is and isnt the father, but in the show thanks to weird casting choices (actors fine, repersentation meh, It only makes the ambiguity of the boys parentage less... ambiguous)
I mean if you mixed a half black half white guy with a white woman your children are likely to be white passing, casting doesn’t make a difference there. Look at Mariah Carey, Rashida Jones, Nicole Richie, Sophia Richie, all white passing and they have a black parent, the black parent in a lot of the situations isn’t even half white just light skinned and their offspring looks white. I don’t know why people are hung up about the mystery of who her kids are being gone by having a father who is half black. Lol.
If Rhaenyra's sons are legitimate the dance still happens because too many lords wouldn't accept a queen. We would have a Blackfyre rebellion situation with Aegon being told by Otto that he should declare war on Rhaenyra. And if not Aegon, then Aemon, who would have no problem killing his still cruel brother to be next in line. Alicent would be much less important regardless of whether she supports rhaenyra or not. If anything, Rhaenyra still wishing she could run away with Alicent and her wanting to stay because of her duty would be the main conflict between the two, if one could even call that a conflict.
The reason the blackfyre rebellions failed was because it was claim to the throne, a claim stronger then aegon or aemond ever had and house hightower would be bound to rhaenyra thru helaena and the fact that rhaenyra would already sit on the iron throne would make it at best a small claimant faction. Most lords would rather have peace then a male ruler so they'd have little reason.
@@Sacressane The whole thing with Daemon taking out Rhaenyra, and her sleeping with Ser Criston would've still happened. Otto still would've been sent away and still would've warned Alicent that Rhaenyra would have to kill Aegon to secure her claim. Ser Criston still would've killed Joffrey. Alicent still hates Rhaenyra and still wears a green dress to her wedding. Alicent still wouldn't want Rhaenyra to be queen. I also don't think she would agree to marry Jace and Halaena. In fact, I think she would be angry that Rhaenyra wouldn't marry Aegon, which would've saved his life. I bet the fact that she wouldn't would be proof enough to her that Rhaenyra was planning to kill him. I bet she still becomes "friends" with Larys who still kills his father so Otto can be the Hand again. And, because of all of that, I think the dance still happens.
You forget that rhaenyras sons being bastards is also a big reason why Alicent is afraid. The weaker her claim the more reason she has to get rid of any trueborn heirs that ultimately is the fear which pushes her to starts the dance. Ottos word's won't have the same impact in a scenario where rhaenyras children are legitimate.
@@azankhan88 Otto had been telling Alicent that Rhaenyra would have to kill her sons even before any of the Strong boys were born. SPOILERS: Rhaenyra eventually comes to this conclusion.
@@angryfirefly Exactly even in the best case scenario killing of brothers has been pretty common throughout history to prevent any challanges. Rhaenyra being the first woman and with bastard kids pretty much makes things a certainty.
I loved this.Certainly it's not hard to see TV Alicent and Rhaenyra reconciling in this situation. I hope you do the other alt history you discussed as wll.
To me this topic fixes everything since they ain’t bastards. If the kids were legitimate Alicent would marry her daughter to Jace. Helena would be safe, Aemond wouldn’t loose an eye, Alicent won’t go to war. The only won who would still conspire is Oto but he wouldn’t have much chance since he would still be in old town. Great video can’t disagree with anything u say.
@@danika9411 In this case, I hope EmpyreanSpeaks would do a "what if" alternate game of thrones timeline where dragons never went extinct after Rhaenyra and Alicent's time. Where dragon babies/chicks never got sick or never been kept captive, allowing them to grow.
As long as there are rumors that the children are illegitimate the line of succession will never be secure. Viserys should have realized this. If he wanted her to be his heir, he needed to make marriage alliances between her children and the high noble houses to secure their loyalty to the line. Such as marry the eldest to one house and the second to a second house stipulated that they will marry those couple's children (who would be cousins in the next generation) so they would be on the throne in the next generation. And then marry the third and forth to a third and forth noble house. With the stipulation that their children marry and have children, and then that child marries the original line to be on the Throne in the third generation. And yes a lot of first cousins marry and these kids may end up with extra fingers, but there isn't a war.
Yeah I agree, the only thing that would've stopped the dance with this generation is if Viserys named his firstborn son as his heir instead of keeping his daughter as heir. No matter who Viserys would've married the mother of his firstborn son would want her son to inherit the throne after his father.
I think dance will still happen though it won't be that intense as in original. Aegon and alicent won't be playing any part because jace and helaena's marriage. I can't say same about aemond and otto.
Aemond mostly though just held the grudge most of the time because of the eye. Had he still had it, there wouldn't be a debt to be paid in his eyes xd. So besides some minor bullying he would not want to maim any of them.
I think Aemond would travel to Essos and join or start a mercenary company, perhaps even doing something like conquering the Stepstones or taking advantage of the Triarchy's collapse to take over the disputed lands. I can see him marrying Aliandra Martell of Dorne to cement an alliance to help in the war, and he'll just leave Westeros behind for the east, kinda like how Daemon did for a while.
The one thing you got wrong was Daemon. Daemon would 100% kill Laenor. Than he would marry Rhaenyra and later make sure one of his own children sits on the throne.
Also none of this would have happened had Rhaenyra just sent Lucerys off to ward at Driftmark since it would be his one day. In either timeline she should have done this.
Having bastards is one thing but it's not okay when you try to pass them off as legitimate heirs when it's too obvious that Laenor isn't the father. The smart move for Rhaenyra to have done was name her sons by Daemon as her heirs to the throne and as for her bastards, she could've bought Jace some land and got him a castle built and he could've become the lord of his own castle. While setting up Lucerys to be the defender of the Bloody Gate at the Vale just like the Blackfish was in GOT. As for Joffrey he could've become a maester, or own his own business or become a master at arms or something.
If Rhaenyra was a man that would be ok but she isn’t, she’s a woman and heir to the largest and one of the most powerful kingdoms of planetos, being the center of attention of Westeros its obligation that she abides to the faiths rules, especially bcause women were expected to be submissive, if the future queen is giving birth to bastards and placing them on the throne than that’s basically a crime for the faith and for succession laws and she would die for it, but, even if she didn’t have bastards the dance would have happened
she can't do that, sh'd loose support of the velaryons. Her only allies at that time. Rhaenyra just f*cked herself up. She should have given up the throne and accept the terms.
This would never work. The fight has nothing to do with her children Its all a power grab from house high tower. They have been trying that since the begining.
“The succession changed the moment your father sired a son”- Otto Hightower & his brother told him to promote their “boy” & with the Lannisters & the rest of the small council expect Beesbury would still move to crown Aegon. Otto would’ve still told Alicent Rhaenyra would kill them because she’s a woman & Aegon will always be a threat. Otto is one of many the Lannisters & most others don’t think a woman should rule
NGL, I was hoping that the twist would be that Otto would be the one who finds Viserys as he's dying and twists his death bed whispers about Aegon's dream to say that Viserys changed his mind at the last moment to make Aegon king.
What would Daemon be doing in Pentos? I feel like even if he didn't marry Rhaenyra he'd still be plotting to get the throne. The dance breaks out but between Rhaenyra and Daemon.
In this case, I hope TheEmpyreanSpeaks would do a "what if" alternate game of thrones timeline where dragons never went extinct after Rhaenyra and Alicent's time. If Aegon the III never had any fear of dragons Where dragon babies/chicks never got sick or never been kept captive or poisoned by his order, allowing them to grow and be healthy until the Night king makes his move to grow his army. Who would ride them? As far as I know, House Velaryon still lives during the events of game of thrones in the books but was never casted or shown compared to House of the Dragon. If TheEmpyreanSpeaks or any of you find this interesting, please tell me what you think. Thank you.
I’m sorry you’re way too nice to Alicent she chose to start a civil war because she was a sanctimonious hypocrite-her behavior with Larys was treason she could have been beheaded for it. It would have been considered infidelity.
Perhaps Otto would try to make alliances through Aegon? Kinda like he was trying with Aemond. Because lets be honest, even if all the things mentioned in the video happened Otto would still be the scheming bitch he is.
Even though her sons were illegitimate. All she had to do, to quiet people’s rumours and whispers, was to point out that her mother was not a Targaryen. And that her son’s skin colour and hair was or could have been inherited from her mothers side of the family. Not all children who are born from bi-racial marriages, will necessarily inherit the skin colour from just 1 parent. That everyone just assumed that Ser Laenor’s features would be apparent or inherited from him. Even if they were his biological children, all 3 could still have inherited Rhaenyra’s physical features and skin colour. Her entire family lineage was from a Caucasian background and even Ser Laenor’s mother was also from a Caucasian lineage and descent. I do feel for Rhaenyra, it would have been extremely difficult to conceive children when your husband is attracted to men and not women. They have a discussion where they did try several times, but were unsuccessful. Did anyone think, that perhaps Ser Laenor could not conceive children, due to an underlying medical condition. This can happen to men. Born with an inability to conceive children. If this were the case. You certainly wouldn’t want anyone knowing this, it would have been catastrophic for his House and family. If this was indeed the truth. What would you do? Dissolve their marriage and cause irreparable harm to his family and lineage. Or remain married and conceive children through another source, and claim them as Ser Laenor’s children? As Corlys said “History doesn’t remember blood, it remembers names”. Both Jaecerys and Lucerys still inherited Targaryen blood from their mother. And they were betrothed to Baela and Rhaena Targaryen, who had extremely strong bloodlines/lineage from both House Targaryen and House Velaryon. So their children still would have been born with strong bloodlines/lineage which would have come from Raena and Baela. We should also remember that House Targaryen through its entire history has at times, married outside of their House. To other Houses like House Baratheon, Arryn, and others within Westeros. Not all Targaryen marriages were completely kept within the confines of House Targaryen. So other blood, has partly influenced and kept House Targaryen alive. When she was much younger, how many men presented themselves to her from other Houses all over Westeros. As potential suitors to marry her. So her having children to Harwin Strong, would be no different than if she had married someone else from a House outside of Houses Targaryen and Valeryon. Yes, I know that they technically weren’t married. But let’s look at her situation and marriage. She even said “ That she wanted to have Laenor’s children”. She said this to him. When the 2 of them were discussing their overall marriage at Dragonstone. Laenor still raised and loved those children as his own. They were both put in a difficult situation by being wed. And they both protected each other’s secrets and showed genuine respect and love for one another. Rhaenyra having children to Strong is not what started the war. Her claim was contested over a huge mistake that Alicent made. By mistaking her husband’s dying words for her son Aegon, when he was actually referring to Aegon the Conqueror. Besides, Otto Hightower was never going to honour Visery’s wishes. He was always going to want his grandson on the throne. Let’s blame the RIGHT individuals for starting this war. Rhaenyra did everything she could, even after Lucerys was killed to have a peaceful outcome. So she did not start this war.
So your point is that if nothing was generating tension, there would have been no story to tell? Why would you want to remove as you said one key thing that created a story for us? Tbh I was waiting for you to craft the same or better conflict along some other lines, and tought that was the point of the whole what if scenario
Doesn't matter, Aegon II is still the rightful heir by Westerosi tradition and customs and the Dance would still happen. And even if they were legitimate, the rumors would still spread to defame team black about them due to Rhaenyra's infidelity. The only scenario where Rhaenyra gets the throne is by Viserys abdicating the thrones while still alive and crowning her himself. I dont think it would stop a civil war after his death, but it would definitely put team black in a winning position because team green would essentially have zero support from those that kept their oaths. It would be a Blackfire Rebellion scale war at that point.
Harwin Strong wasn't out of neccesity. Rhaenyra&Leonor marriage could have been without children. Driftmark&Iron Throne both had heirs in case of Rhaenyra being without offspring.
In the show it should be obvious Laenor is not the father, not due to hair, but skin colour. Laena children with Daemon are brown skinned, but not Rhaenyra supposed children with Laenor, not even one.
Laenor and the boys had nothing to do with it. Alicent and otto were still giing to try to wipe them all out. Otto wanted the throne and his family on it. It didnt matter if rhaenyra did everything right and if daemon were more controllable. He was going tk try and get rid of them regardless. He pimped his daughter out to the king for a reason. That lets me know how far he was willing to go.
What if when Rhaenyra and Daemon got together on the beach, she got pregnant, how would Laenor react 🤔 and what happen now, will she have Aegon or will she have Visenya.
Well, I believe they’re bastards, but I also believe because they are the bastards of a royal house and not a normal noble house it should have affect the line of succession if anything her hair should’ve been married to her sister, the boys aunt to pleased the none royal houses
Rhaenyra was in love with Daemon since she was a teen if Laenor does she marries Daemon they still don't want a woman as monarch and Daemon is a prince
even in the book it's obvious that harwin is the dad. criston broke breakbones' collar bone and turned his name into broken bones. you take my girl, I take your soul. those are the rules.
I disagree with everything you’ve said in this video. Alicent rejecting Rhaenyra’s offer is exactly when her character began being inconsistent. Rhaenyra offering Jace to marry Halena is an olive branch REGUARDLESS if the kids are bastards or not, and Alicent rejecting the offer implies at some point she was never willing to make peace with Rhaenyra and always intended to usurp her throne. It doesn’t matter if the children were bastards. Jace marrying Helena guarantees the green children’s safety and for anyone saying Alicent rejected the offer “because the blacks children were bastards and she didn’t want to put her children in harms way”, if anyone were planning to challenge Rhaenyra’s claim to the throne, the legitimacy of the children would be irrelevant as the objection to her claim relies on Rhaenyra being a woman and the bastard status of her children is only relevant to Luke’s claim to Driftmark. With that the only person opposing Rhaenyra is Vaemond and who backs him???? Alicent agreeing to Rhaenyra’s offer 1) unites the factions 2) indirectly legitimizes the bastards and 3) shows Rhaenyra never had any intention of harming Alicents children. This video proves exactly why most of the fandom can’t stand Alicent’s character because all of her reasoning is inconsistent and malicious. If she had just excepted the offer in the first place there would be no dance of the dragons. I blame the writers for her character inconsistency. She either has to be a victim of the patriarchy who fears for the safety of her children, or a plotting villian who wants her children on the throne. Either way I’d prefer the villian arc because at least she’d have a backbone and stand behind her decisions. I hate that the writers always go back to “the patriarchy ruined Alicent and Rhaenyra’s girl boss relationship”, because over 15 years there had to be multiple chances of reconciliation that Alicent must have rejected, the offer of Jace marrying Helena is the strongest one we were shown, Alicent rejecting it shows she had no intent to reconcile. And I hate that stupid page at the end of the season, that was pure gaslighting on Alicent’s end.
Actually asking for a princess hand in marriage for a bastard is very big insult in westrosi society for a highborn women like alicent that why alicent looks so insulted and she looked appalled at rhaenyra proposal in episode 6 and rhaenyra only propose the marriage after everyone at kingslanding were talking about her children legitimacy after harwin had meltdown in front of everyone.
lol a last minute marriage proposal after my lover got into a fight n the rumors r spreading my kids are illegitimate? 🤔 I’m sure Rt had no ulterior motive n was just a n”offering a olive branch. It’s not like RT was proving to everyone she wasnt irresponsible for the last 10 years to Alicent. I mean I swore Damon never touched me on the memory of my mother. “To Question my Virtue is an act of treason” enter Ser Criston n encouraging my uncle on the dance floor helped people believe me 😂 Not to mention Rt is sleeping around knowing if she is caught her lovers r doomed to death n torture. Yes I can’t understand y Alicent doesn’t trust RT word for the last 10 years 😂 WHO is gaslighting again? lol
I agree what this guy fails to understand is that in the books the kids could very well not be bastards and everything still happened the same way and the dance still happened. People are going to believe whatever they want to believe. The bottom line is everyone who would “know” the legitimacy of the children (rhaenyra, Laenor, Viserys) have said numerous times they are not bastards. The real issue is the half the small dick men in westeros couldn’t come to terms with the thought of a woman ruling over them so they looked for any reason they could to not let her.
@@KingOfWinterlol book is different from show n yes they r bastards. If I adopt a black kid I can’t say he is biological mine because it’s a scientific fact. The king n everyone can say their not bastards but they r n Rhaenyra should realize the problem with ruling a sexist kingdom that she has to obey those rules. If all Rt kids r legitimate Alicent would have sided with Rt, Aegon, Helena, Aemond, Criston won’t go to war n Boros would have sided with Rt. Would there be a rebellion yes but not one that will destroy the dragons. Their r like 20 reasons y Rt should not be heir n being a women is definitely not the overall problem 😂
@jjosifovic Ok books are different from show then this world is different from theirs. There is no paternity test in their world and no real way of knowing if the kids are truly bastards or not. I’ve seen two pale white people have a super tan kid and I’ve seen two very dark black people have a kid so light skinned it could pass as white. First off in their world the Kings word is law and if the King says they aren’t bastards then they aren’t but even past that Laenor says he is their father and though he may be distant he never says or does anything that would imply those kids are not his. The only people who do act that way are the people who have the most to gain from the kids being bastards. What Rhaenrya and her husband do in their home is their business especially since they are the future king consort and queen of the kingdom. What rules? No king or queen can overcome slander that’s just part of ruling. It’s the lords that have to decide if they want to listen to it or not but there is no evidence so it’s all hearsay no matter what the children look like so as far as I’m concerned all the greens are traitors. Viserys should’ve married his daughter to Jace and dismissed his queen from court the second she started splitting up the family because no matter what the family had to stick together and no matter what the word of the king should be upheld or it only makes the Targaryens control over the kingdom weaker no matter who sits the throne. If Aegon II would’ve won the dance and lived he basically told all the other lords of westeros you only have to listen to the king when you agree with what he says. Which comes back to bite them big time after the dragons all die.
Not much would change, the dishonorable lords who supported Rhaenyra would support her nonetheless, I imagine how would people of true honor like Ned Stark or Jon Arryn react to such fallony and dishonor, having 3 bastard children was a very big deal with Cersei, can't imagine it would be less with Rhaenyra, but there wasn't any man with real honor to question that or to give that any mind. People who supported Aegon supported him because they would benefit from it, not because it's the rightful thing, and the people who supported Rhaenyra are either the latter, or some idiots who think the words of a king matter after his death, dispite the clear fact Rhaenyra is unfaithful piece of crap Type 1 included the likes of the Arryns, Freys, Velaryons, Blackwoods Type 2 included the likes of the Starks, and Tullys
In George's original draft for fire and blood Harwin and Rhaenyra were married so their children were legitimate and the Greens still usurped Rhaenyra so if Rhaenyra had legitimate children the war would've happened regardless.
The Greens did not usurp Rhaenyra since she was not the legitimate heir. Aegon, Aemond, Daeron are all trueborn sons of Viserys and therefore come before Rhaenyra (even Daemon) in the line of succession. Even little Jaehaerys and Maelor come before Rhaenyra and Daemon.
Rhaenyra was named when Viserys had no living sons and scorned Daemon. Although, Viserys didn't disinherit Daemon so it's still debatable even then whether Rhaenyra ever truly was the heir. 20 years later the situation drastically changed.
Rhaenyra and Viserys did not do the necessary law reform or royal progresses or oath consolidations to ensure she would ascend the throne as rightful heir. Her first 3 sons being bastards was just further fuel to the fire. It's also treason which is firm cause for disinheritance...
Aegon was the true heir since the moment he was born by centuries of Andal, First Men and Valyrian law.
@@browniebear ......
@@browniebearyeah and before the blonde haired purple eyed sister fuckers rocked up on giant fire breathing lizards and fucking blasted everybody until they submitted to one king, there literally was no "realm" for their traditions violated because for centuries upon centuries the andals and first men were 7 independent kingdoms, not one unified realm. And before that marrying your sister/brother was unthinkable and punishable by death. The targaryns changed a lot about the land when they came to power, which gave them full authority to name whoever the fuck they wanted as their heir was regardless of what the traditions were before they got there because they literally wrote the laws of the new realm they created. I mean hell, vicerys became king because of exactly that reason, the sitting king having the ability to choose which of his descendants would inherit the throne and him passing up the legally defined rightful heir for him. so by the time of the dance there was already precedent in history for the king passing over the quote unquote "rightful" heir in favor of someone else. There is no getting around the fact that not only as king he had full authority to pick his heir regardless of westeros tradition and he chose his daughter but also had every lord in the realm swear to recognize her as the rightful heir which means that even if the previous tradition was only men can inherit, all the lords of westeros agreed suspend that tradition at least this one time because the king declared her as heir. So you have no argument my friend, by every legal precedent and definition she is the legitimate heir.
@@browniebear Still, Rhaenyra was the one Viserys OFFICIALLY named his heir, her claim is indeed stronger than Alicent's sons who Viserys didn't name anyone of them his heir. Viserys didn't even thought of replacing Rhaenyra with Aegon. Aegon still indeed the one usurping Rhaenyra's throne.
in the original draft both Aegon and Rheanyra where full blooded siblings with Rheanyra being only a few years older. There was no mentioned of a named heir and it was kinda implied she rebelled. The purpose of the dance before George stopped writing the books was to get rid of the dragons and to be a parallel to Arianna Martell plot.
It why the dance kept changing and made Rheanyra look better, originally she married Lyonel Strong in one version it was than changed to Jason Lannister than Laenor Velaryon. In addition to that Aegon was no longer her full blooded brother but a half brother, this change also happened with Jaehaerys wife no longer being a Hightower but instead a sister meanwhile the Hightower bride would become Visery second wife. Finally to get around why Rhaenyra and Aegon didn’t just marry he gave them a ten plus year age gap. This is one of the main reasons why the dance is such a massive mess from a narrative point of via it George changing things rather than giving fans what they want the sixth book.
The thing is that the Strong boys are not the reason the Dance happend. It would happen regardless.
Not really.
Aegon does not want the Throne. Otto is not there. And Alicent STILL has the hots for Rhaenyra.
Like Rhaenyra only needed to play nice to get the Throne.
@@facundogonza5740 ain’t no way
@@facundogonza5740 Do we forget about Aemond his claim is still stronger than Rhaenyra's he is a second son. That comes for the first daughter. He would never allowed that.
Apart from the obvious schism between the Blacks and the Greens, there were also many trade factors, both local and foreign….
@@lasloapollo4312Exactly,
This has nothing to do with her children.
This was a hightower power grab
The lords of westeros were always trying to dilute the targaryean power .
If in this senario her staying in kinglanding would have been dumb.
Too risky.
Too many assasins.
Unlike retreating to dragonstone where most people are pro targaryea
I just want to state that in the books team green were spreading rumors about Rhaenyra having sex since she was 10
Always throwing rocks when Alicent was also suspected of sleeping with the old King and then making a move on Viserys. 🙄
What version are you reading?
Because what I read was that everybody at court knew Rhaenyra had a crush on Ser Criston/was infatuated with him.
Alicent did nothing more than point out a legitimate concern that Rhaenyra's crush could be taken advantage of.
Of course, it's innocent on Rhaenyra's part. But Alicent was subject to rumors as a 15 year old when she did nothing more than read to Jaehaerys.
the hell does that have to do with anything
@@kosyudochukwu1414 wdym. It has to do with the fact that if Raenyra had trueborn kids there would still be rumors that they are bastards, no matter what she did
@@slvaltva1392 no. There wouldn’t be rumors about her children being bastards no matter what she did. That’s stupid and ignorant to say such. They are basing it off of PHENOTYPES. And they’re right because they are bastards and they look like their father, Harwin Strong. If Rhaenyra’s heirs were her kids from daemon nobody would call her heirs bastards because they wouldn’t be bastards.
Okay, yes, we KNOW that Jace, Luc, and Joffrey aren't Laenor's kids. HOWEVER, you can't actually tell that just from looking at them like everyone says on the show. Their mother Rhaenyra is 3/4 Targaryan and 1/4 Arryn (Arryns are known to have sandy brown hair). Laenor has a very light complexion and is 1/2 Velaryan, 1/4 Targaryen, and 1/4 Baratheon (Baratheons are known to have black hair. In fact, in Fire & Blood, Rhaenys is said to have black hair). It would be completely within the realm of possibility (no pun intended) for Rhaenyra's first 3 sons to have white skin and brown hair and STILL be Laenor's children.
Nah. Laenor had white hair, Rhaenyra had white hair. White hair is the dominant gene. If they were Laenor's sons they would have different complexion and white hair
If one of the kids came out fully white then sure, but all 3!?!
Are you kidding me, probability wise at least one of the kids should have brownish skin and white hair
@@Doffythegoat yea but all 3 came out with brown hair. They’re bastards. Also, there’s a stronger chance of all three coming out with white hair if they were truly the sons of laenor than all 3 coming out with brown hair if they were sons of laenor. Much stronger chance
@@Doffythegoatnot with someone who’s 1/4 black. Meghan markle & Drake kids are very much white. At most the kids might look Italian or Middle eastern.
@@kosyudochukwu1414 White hair isnt dominant, especially when theres Baratheon genes in there too. By established genetics the strong boys should look how they look if Laenor is their father.
I can see Harwin being number one bodyguard for the boys, they may not be lovers but he may still be devoted to Rhaenyra. Harwin and Laenor may even be bros, bonding over training the kids and war stories.
I see in the comments that some people truly believe that if Rhaenyra didn't have bastards, that the war wouldn't have happened. I find it hilarious that. Otto and Alicent were against Rhaenyra BEFORE Rhaenyra had children in both book and show. In episode 3 Otto said to Alicent that Aegon must be King, because he was the 1st born son, Otto wanted his blood on the throne, that's why he pimped out Alicent to the King. Alicent turned on Rhaenyra because she slept with Criston Cole and used that to declare for her son its why she wore green to Rhaenyra's engagement party.
his blood would still be on the throne through Jace and Halaena's kids.
I was about to say before reaching to the end of the video that as long as Otto and the small council are still pro male primogeniture then the dance would happen regardless of how close the kinds are or how close alicent is to rhaenyra
Maybe if Cole would have gotten punished by the King for killing Joffrey, which I don’t understand how he got away without one, Leonor would have moved on and be more present for Rhaenyra and the kids.
I agree, he probably wasn't punished because Alicent advocated for him
He wasn't punished because he killed him in a joust accident
@Al4___ not the joust incident remember at rhaenyra and laenors wedding party Cole got mad and killed laenors secret boyfriend in cold blood yeah that joffrey
Yeah, I think you overlooked the fact that high towers are her family and they have a whole different plot regardless on how she might feel about her stepdaughter her duty to her father will come out first, which is why in the books she didn’t join the plot last minute she was part of the plot
The Strong boys have brown hair in F&B which is not the same as Rhaenys's Baratheon black hair.
Rhaenys having black hair but her children not having those same features is a hilariously pointless 'the seed is strong' retcon from George.
Yeah and Baratheons are known for their blue eyes not brown
Harwin strong has no description of the color of his hair in FB
The seed is strong. Not the egg@@rsync9490
If Leanor's sons were legitimate, even Alicent would have agreed to a Jaecerys - Heleana marriage.
Naturally taking out otto stops the dnce, but he is essential to the story😅
Not really. Book Alicent wanted her son on the throne as well and Otto won't be the hand of the king for long because he isn't taking action, he is trying to solve the dance more diplomatically.. Things will be way worse for the Greens when there will be new hand of the king instead of Otto, I don't want to spoil it.😆
The dance may still have happened.
The source material has Laenor's mother with dark hair, and the Velaryon family isn't black but look like the Targaryens. In addition to all this, the amount of time that Rhaenyra and Laena and Daemon spent together in the years that Viserys was ruling, Rhaenyra could have easily hidden the fact that Laenor is gay by having more Targaryen looking bastards with Daemon.
Marrying her to Laenor made sense to keep his house in the fold, but marrying her to Harwin would have been good to see.
"The source material has Laenor's mother with dark hair, and the Velaryon family isn't black but look like the Targaryens."
The Source Material is also not completely accurate because its written from an in universe character years and years after the fact with shotty sources at best while HOTD tells the exact story.
@@SRVaris her mother was a Baratheon. The whole thing with that line is their dark hair. Argon I's (alleged) half brother began that line, with his dark hair. It's also part of why their claim isn't taken as seriously, because not only is she a woman but she doesn't have the typical Targaryen looks. Her son was a Velaryon, whose mother didn't look very Targaryen.
You're right that it is written in for context, but it is still from GRRM. Have as many opinions as you want, but the author has final say on what his characters look like. And the princess was dark haired with purple eyes.
With Otto gone, Alicent won't feel pressured to then pressure Aegon into taking the Throne over Rhaenyra. Aegon himself said that he didn't want to supplant Rhaenyra when she was still just Viserys' heir. It leaves Aegon free to abdicate. But the Hightowers could still rally behind Aemond and hold sway over any other houses that also don't approve of any woman sitting on the Iron Throne. I highly doubt whichever Baratheon was head of Storm's End when Rhaenyra sought allies would side with her regardless of whether her children were legitimate or not... which means Aemond would still have a Baratheon bride waiting for him, should he wind up being the last man standing for the inevitable dance 😅
Also! If Alicent had accepted Rhaenyra’s offer, Otto would have no incentive to oppose Rhaenyra’s claim. He incentivized Viserys to pass over Daemon, (how’s that for male primogeniture), to have the opportunity to put his own blood on the throne. He’s ambitious. He didn’t oppose Daemon because he thought Rhaenyra would be a better ruler, he was fearful of someone who disliked him having more power than him. He’s never been concerned with a leader who’s sufficient by merit because he knows his grandson is a r*pist 😃. Both Alicent and Otto are ambitious hypocrites. It’s never been about male primogeniture, it’s about Otto wanting his own on the throne😉
I think he still would try, because he wants a male in the throne. Specifically, one he can control like Aegon (even though that backfired later on but he doesn't know that yet) and also because males are the ones considered to continue the legacy. Jacaerys and Helaena's kids would be seen more as Jace kids and Rhaenyra's grandkids than actually Otto's great grandkids, he would be eclipsed and he doesn't wants that. Their marriage would only buy Rhaenyra time, but if Otto still lives he would for sure keep plotting.
@@notyourproblem474 I agree, the dance would've happened, and I don't think Alicent would want Helaena marrying Jace even if he was legit because she already decided she was declaring for her son before Rhaenyra even had kids, Alicent decided that once she found out Criston Cole slept with Rhaenyra, its why she wore green to the wedding feast.
@@notyourproblem474I don’t think he’d have any backing. Again, if male primogeniture is what the Lords back Otto for, they have no claim to the throne. Otto proposed Aegon to marry Rhaenyra when he was just a child and Rhaenyra would have been the one inheriting the throne as Queen. I agree he’d want to have someone to control, but by the time Rhaenyra proposed Jace to marry Helaena, Otto was not on the council. Literally the entire dance could be avoided by Jace marrying Helaena because Alicent would have no reason to want her father back ie Lionel wouldn’t have killed his brother and father. I honestly don’t think Alicent is ambitious. I think she is scared for her children’s life and is a perpetual victim to the system. If Rhaenyra and her were on good terms, Otto would have no support. He was a hand that was dishonorably released from his job, he’s a second son with no wealth or lands, and has nothing to offer other lords to oppose Rhaenyra’s claim.
clock that tea
do you understand what agnatic-cognatic primogeniture is? There is no hypocrisy there's a reasson why rhaenys and her son laenor had lots of support ie being descended from a more senior line.
Isn’t Laenor a lord? Or at the very least he’s the son of a lord. I feel like the courtyard scene with Ser Criston would play much differently cuz striking a lord is much more heinous than striking a fellow knight.
In the books its alot less clear who is and isnt the father, but in the show thanks to weird casting choices (actors fine, repersentation meh, It only makes the ambiguity of the boys parentage less... ambiguous)
I mean if you mixed a half black half white guy with a white woman your children are likely to be white passing, casting doesn’t make a difference there. Look at Mariah Carey, Rashida Jones, Nicole Richie, Sophia Richie, all white passing and they have a black parent, the black parent in a lot of the situations isn’t even half white just light skinned and their offspring looks white. I don’t know why people are hung up about the mystery of who her kids are being gone by having a father who is half black. Lol.
Yep, they really dumbed down the show with a few things to make it more gray, instead of the greens just being assholes.
If Rhaenyra's sons are legitimate the dance still happens because too many lords wouldn't accept a queen. We would have a Blackfyre rebellion situation with Aegon being told by Otto that he should declare war on Rhaenyra. And if not Aegon, then Aemon, who would have no problem killing his still cruel brother to be next in line. Alicent would be much less important regardless of whether she supports rhaenyra or not. If anything, Rhaenyra still wishing she could run away with Alicent and her wanting to stay because of her duty would be the main conflict between the two, if one could even call that a conflict.
The reason the blackfyre rebellions failed was because it was claim to the throne, a claim stronger then aegon or aemond ever had and house hightower would be bound to rhaenyra thru helaena and the fact that rhaenyra would already sit on the iron throne would make it at best a small claimant faction. Most lords would rather have peace then a male ruler so they'd have little reason.
@@Sacressane The whole thing with Daemon taking out Rhaenyra, and her sleeping with Ser Criston would've still happened. Otto still would've been sent away and still would've warned Alicent that Rhaenyra would have to kill Aegon to secure her claim. Ser Criston still would've killed Joffrey. Alicent still hates Rhaenyra and still wears a green dress to her wedding.
Alicent still wouldn't want Rhaenyra to be queen. I also don't think she would agree to marry Jace and Halaena. In fact, I think she would be angry that Rhaenyra wouldn't marry Aegon, which would've saved his life. I bet the fact that she wouldn't would be proof enough to her that Rhaenyra was planning to kill him. I bet she still becomes "friends" with Larys who still kills his father so Otto can be the Hand again. And, because of all of that, I think the dance still happens.
You forget that rhaenyras sons being bastards is also a big reason why Alicent is afraid. The weaker her claim the more reason she has to get rid of any trueborn heirs that ultimately is the fear which pushes her to starts the dance. Ottos word's won't have the same impact in a scenario where rhaenyras children are legitimate.
@@azankhan88 Otto had been telling Alicent that Rhaenyra would have to kill her sons even before any of the Strong boys were born.
SPOILERS:
Rhaenyra eventually comes to this conclusion.
@@angryfirefly Exactly even in the best case scenario killing of brothers has been pretty common throughout history to prevent any challanges. Rhaenyra being the first woman and with bastard kids pretty much makes things a certainty.
I loved this.Certainly it's not hard to see TV Alicent and Rhaenyra reconciling in this situation. I hope you do the other alt history you discussed as wll.
To me this topic fixes everything since they ain’t bastards. If the kids were legitimate Alicent would marry her daughter to Jace. Helena would be safe, Aemond wouldn’t loose an eye, Alicent won’t go to war. The only won who would still conspire is Oto but he wouldn’t have much chance since he would still be in old town.
Great video can’t disagree with anything u say.
Completly agree 👍 With everyone on the same page and chill with each other, Otto can try to plot as much as he wants. It won't lead anywhere.
@@danika9411 In this case, I hope EmpyreanSpeaks would do a "what if" alternate game of thrones timeline where dragons never went extinct after Rhaenyra and Alicent's time. Where dragon babies/chicks never got sick or never been kept captive, allowing them to grow.
As long as there are rumors that the children are illegitimate the line of succession will never be secure. Viserys should have realized this. If he wanted her to be his heir, he needed to make marriage alliances between her children and the high noble houses to secure their loyalty to the line. Such as marry the eldest to one house and the second to a second house stipulated that they will marry those couple's children (who would be cousins in the next generation) so they would be on the throne in the next generation. And then marry the third and forth to a third and forth noble house. With the stipulation that their children marry and have children, and then that child marries the original line to be on the Throne in the third generation. And yes a lot of first cousins marry and these kids may end up with extra fingers, but there isn't a war.
The dance was always going to happen
Yeah I agree, the only thing that would've stopped the dance with this generation is if Viserys named his firstborn son as his heir instead of keeping his daughter as heir. No matter who Viserys would've married the mother of his firstborn son would want her son to inherit the throne after his father.
I think dance will still happen though it won't be that intense as in original. Aegon and alicent won't be playing any part because jace and helaena's marriage. I can't say same about aemond and otto.
Aemond mostly though just held the grudge most of the time because of the eye. Had he still had it, there wouldn't be a debt to be paid in his eyes xd. So besides some minor bullying he would not want to maim any of them.
I think Aemond would travel to Essos and join or start a mercenary company, perhaps even doing something like conquering the Stepstones or taking advantage of the Triarchy's collapse to take over the disputed lands. I can see him marrying Aliandra Martell of Dorne to cement an alliance to help in the war, and he'll just leave Westeros behind for the east, kinda like how Daemon did for a while.
The one thing you got wrong was Daemon. Daemon would 100% kill Laenor. Than he would marry Rhaenyra and later make sure one of his own children sits on the throne.
Alicent is clearly a past incarnation of Catelyn. Family. Duty. Honor.
Yeah cause it's family first, then duty, and lastly honor
nahh don't equate them pls 😭
Also none of this would have happened had Rhaenyra just sent Lucerys off to ward at Driftmark since it would be his one day. In either timeline she should have done this.
I know this is boring but I like happy endings. 😂
But I believe that the real problem comes for the high tower since the time of maegor they’ve been trying to destroy the Targaryen influence and power
Having bastards is one thing but it's not okay when you try to pass them off as legitimate heirs when it's too obvious that Laenor isn't the father. The smart move for Rhaenyra to have done was name her sons by Daemon as her heirs to the throne and as for her bastards, she could've bought Jace some land and got him a castle built and he could've become the lord of his own castle. While setting up Lucerys to be the defender of the Bloody Gate at the Vale just like the Blackfish was in GOT. As for Joffrey he could've become a maester, or own his own business or become a master at arms or something.
Lol that's tantamount to admitting to adultery which is not okay for women princess or not. Rhanyra had no choice but to literally die on that hill.
If Rhaenyra was a man that would be ok but she isn’t, she’s a woman and heir to the largest and one of the most powerful kingdoms of planetos, being the center of attention of Westeros its obligation that she abides to the faiths rules, especially bcause women were expected to be submissive, if the future queen is giving birth to bastards and placing them on the throne than that’s basically a crime for the faith and for succession laws and she would die for it, but, even if she didn’t have bastards the dance would have happened
she can't do that, sh'd loose support of the velaryons. Her only allies at that time. Rhaenyra just f*cked herself up. She should have given up the throne and accept the terms.
@@me-fm8nl she wouldn’t give up the throne, if she revealed they were bastards she would get executed
I think marrying Jace and Lucerys to Daemon's daughters was a good solution since those girls were the grandchildren of Corlys and Rhaenys .
I think you miss a big part, Daemon still wants to be King. He would try something
I always liked the idea "what if Daemon was the father" because the kids would just look like normal Valyrians
(this video co-written by Lord Corlys Velaryon and sponsored by the Rhaenyra Targaryen campaign)
This would never work.
The fight has nothing to do with her children
Its all a power grab from house high tower.
They have been trying that since the begining.
Jace didn’t take Aemonds eye, it was actually Lucaerys.
It was Jace's knife. Jace pull it out attacked aemond and the knife fell. The lucaerys pick it up and used it to take aemonds eye
Makes way more since than the show
“The succession changed the moment your father sired a son”- Otto Hightower & his brother told him to promote their “boy” & with the Lannisters & the rest of the small council expect Beesbury would still move to crown Aegon. Otto would’ve still told Alicent Rhaenyra would kill them because she’s a woman & Aegon will always be a threat. Otto is one of many the Lannisters & most others don’t think a woman should rule
i dont think it would have stopped much. the Greens have one less argument against Rhaenyra, but they have several others.
NGL, I was hoping that the twist would be that Otto would be the one who finds Viserys as he's dying and twists his death bed whispers about Aegon's dream to say that Viserys changed his mind at the last moment to make Aegon king.
The moment Aemma and Baelon died, the dance was doomed to happen.
What would Daemon be doing in Pentos? I feel like even if he didn't marry Rhaenyra he'd still be plotting to get the throne. The dance breaks out but between Rhaenyra and Daemon.
In this case, I hope TheEmpyreanSpeaks would do a "what if" alternate game of thrones timeline where dragons never went extinct after Rhaenyra and Alicent's time. If Aegon the III never had any fear of dragons Where dragon babies/chicks never got sick or never been kept captive or poisoned by his order, allowing them to grow and be healthy until the Night king makes his move to grow his army. Who would ride them? As far as I know, House Velaryon still lives during the events of game of thrones in the books but was never casted or shown compared to House of the Dragon. If TheEmpyreanSpeaks or any of you find this interesting, please tell me what you think. Thank you.
I’m sorry you’re way too nice to Alicent she chose to start a civil war because she was a sanctimonious hypocrite-her behavior with Larys was treason she could have been beheaded for it. It would have been considered infidelity.
Here's a good what if. What if Jace, Luke and Joffrey looked like their mother Rhaenyra?
in this scenario a question you didnt pose yet i still think is interesting, who would aegon marry
Perhaps Otto would try to make alliances through Aegon? Kinda like he was trying with Aemond. Because lets be honest, even if all the things mentioned in the video happened Otto would still be the scheming bitch he is.
A Baratheon most likely.
Considering how that family works, maybe Rhaena or Baela.
@@elizabethkelley2559 Otto and wouldn't want his grandson marrying Daemon's daughters.
Even though her sons were illegitimate. All she had to do, to quiet people’s rumours and whispers, was to point out that her mother was not a Targaryen. And that her son’s skin colour and hair was or could have been inherited from her mothers side of the family. Not all children who are born from bi-racial marriages, will necessarily inherit the skin colour from just 1 parent. That everyone just assumed that Ser Laenor’s features would be apparent or inherited from him. Even if they were his biological children, all 3 could still have inherited Rhaenyra’s physical features and skin colour. Her entire family lineage was from a Caucasian background and even Ser Laenor’s mother was also from a Caucasian lineage and descent. I do feel for Rhaenyra, it would have been extremely difficult to conceive children when your husband is attracted to men and not women. They have a discussion where they did try several times, but were unsuccessful. Did anyone think, that perhaps Ser Laenor could not conceive children, due to an underlying medical condition. This can happen to men. Born with an inability to conceive children. If this were the case. You certainly wouldn’t want anyone knowing this, it would have been catastrophic for his House and family. If this was indeed the truth. What would you do? Dissolve their marriage and cause irreparable harm to his family and lineage. Or remain married and conceive children through another source, and claim them as Ser Laenor’s children? As Corlys said “History doesn’t remember blood, it remembers names”. Both Jaecerys and Lucerys still inherited Targaryen blood from their mother. And they were betrothed to Baela and Rhaena Targaryen, who had extremely strong bloodlines/lineage from both House Targaryen and House Velaryon. So their children still would have been born with strong bloodlines/lineage which would have come from Raena and Baela. We should also remember that House Targaryen through its entire history has at times, married outside of their House. To other Houses like House Baratheon, Arryn, and others within Westeros. Not all Targaryen marriages were completely kept within the confines of House Targaryen. So other blood, has partly influenced and kept House Targaryen alive. When she was much younger, how many men presented themselves to her from other Houses all over Westeros. As potential suitors to marry her. So her having children to Harwin Strong, would be no different than if she had married someone else from a House outside of Houses Targaryen and Valeryon. Yes, I know that they technically weren’t married. But let’s look at her situation and marriage. She even said “ That she wanted to have Laenor’s children”. She said this to him. When the 2 of them were discussing their overall marriage at Dragonstone. Laenor still raised and loved those children as his own. They were both put in a difficult situation by being wed. And they both protected each other’s secrets and showed genuine respect and love for one another. Rhaenyra having children to Strong is not what started the war. Her claim was contested over a huge mistake that Alicent made. By mistaking her husband’s dying words for her son Aegon, when he was actually referring to Aegon the Conqueror. Besides, Otto Hightower was never going to honour Visery’s wishes. He was always going to want his grandson on the throne. Let’s blame the RIGHT individuals for starting this war. Rhaenyra did everything she could, even after Lucerys was killed to have a peaceful outcome. So she did not start this war.
So your point is that if nothing was generating tension, there would have been no story to tell? Why would you want to remove as you said one key thing that created a story for us?
Tbh I was waiting for you to craft the same or better conflict along some other lines, and tought that was the point of the whole what if scenario
Even if they were, the greens would have lied and said they were illegitimate to take the throne.
Doesn't matter, Aegon II is still the rightful heir by Westerosi tradition and customs and the Dance would still happen. And even if they were legitimate, the rumors would still spread to defame team black about them due to Rhaenyra's infidelity. The only scenario where Rhaenyra gets the throne is by Viserys abdicating the thrones while still alive and crowning her himself. I dont think it would stop a civil war after his death, but it would definitely put team black in a winning position because team green would essentially have zero support from those that kept their oaths. It would be a Blackfire Rebellion scale war at that point.
I love your videos. Could you do one of Criston and Alicent´s bond?
Just an fyi, some of us thrive better with longer videos
love your channel be here eince day 1 hope u reach 1 mill
Simp😂😂😂
@@lasloapollo4312 i guess 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️ not that many youtubers be going in depth just 3 min vids on bullshit with a ai voice😭😭😭
@@estebanbatista169 it was a joke dont worry about it. I like his channel too
Harwin Strong wasn't out of neccesity. Rhaenyra&Leonor marriage could have been without children. Driftmark&Iron Throne both had heirs in case of Rhaenyra being without offspring.
I wish they were true born they would be dark or light skin with white hair one could had dreadlocks and one could have curls that would be cool
Would you consider a scenario where Alicent only gave birth to daughters? Let's also assume Rhaenyra still has the Strong boys and did marry Daemon
In the show it should be obvious Laenor is not the father, not due to hair, but skin colour. Laena children with Daemon are brown skinned, but not Rhaenyra supposed children with Laenor, not even one.
Laenor and the boys had nothing to do with it. Alicent and otto were still giing to try to wipe them all out. Otto wanted the throne and his family on it. It didnt matter if rhaenyra did everything right and if daemon were more controllable. He was going tk try and get rid of them regardless. He pimped his daughter out to the king for a reason. That lets me know how far he was willing to go.
What if when Rhaenyra and Daemon got together on the beach, she got pregnant, how would Laenor react 🤔 and what happen now, will she have Aegon or will she have Visenya.
Well, I believe they’re bastards, but I also believe because they are the bastards of a royal house and not a normal noble house it should have affect the line of succession if anything her hair should’ve been married to her sister, the boys aunt to pleased the none royal houses
Rhaenyra was in love with Daemon since she was a teen if Laenor does she marries Daemon they still don't want a woman as monarch and Daemon is a prince
Can you do a „what if viserys led daemon marry rhaenyra“
What if denerys reincarnated back in time in this century... And claimed vermathor
Daemon would murder Laenor
what if Rhaenyra went to rooks rest with Rhaenys
even in the book it's obvious that harwin is the dad. criston broke breakbones' collar bone and turned his name into broken bones.
you take my girl, I take your soul. those are the rules.
Then they would be mixed race.
I disagree with everything you’ve said in this video. Alicent rejecting Rhaenyra’s offer is exactly when her character began being inconsistent. Rhaenyra offering Jace to marry Halena is an olive branch REGUARDLESS if the kids are bastards or not, and Alicent rejecting the offer implies at some point she was never willing to make peace with Rhaenyra and always intended to usurp her throne. It doesn’t matter if the children were bastards. Jace marrying Helena guarantees the green children’s safety and for anyone saying Alicent rejected the offer “because the blacks children were bastards and she didn’t want to put her children in harms way”, if anyone were planning to challenge Rhaenyra’s claim to the throne, the legitimacy of the children would be irrelevant as the objection to her claim relies on Rhaenyra being a woman and the bastard status of her children is only relevant to Luke’s claim to Driftmark. With that the only person opposing Rhaenyra is Vaemond and who backs him???? Alicent agreeing to Rhaenyra’s offer 1) unites the factions 2) indirectly legitimizes the bastards and 3) shows Rhaenyra never had any intention of harming Alicents children. This video proves exactly why most of the fandom can’t stand Alicent’s character because all of her reasoning is inconsistent and malicious. If she had just excepted the offer in the first place there would be no dance of the dragons. I blame the writers for her character inconsistency. She either has to be a victim of the patriarchy who fears for the safety of her children, or a plotting villian who wants her children on the throne. Either way I’d prefer the villian arc because at least she’d have a backbone and stand behind her decisions. I hate that the writers always go back to “the patriarchy ruined Alicent and Rhaenyra’s girl boss relationship”, because over 15 years there had to be multiple chances of reconciliation that Alicent must have rejected, the offer of Jace marrying Helena is the strongest one we were shown, Alicent rejecting it shows she had no intent to reconcile. And I hate that stupid page at the end of the season, that was pure gaslighting on Alicent’s end.
Actually asking for a princess hand in marriage for a bastard is very big insult in westrosi society for a highborn women like alicent that why alicent looks so insulted and she looked appalled at rhaenyra proposal in episode 6 and rhaenyra only propose the marriage after everyone at kingslanding were talking about her children legitimacy after harwin had meltdown in front of everyone.
lol a last minute marriage proposal after my lover got into a fight n the rumors r spreading my kids are illegitimate? 🤔 I’m sure Rt had no ulterior motive n was just a n”offering a olive branch.
It’s not like RT was proving to everyone she wasnt irresponsible for the last 10 years to Alicent. I mean I swore Damon never touched me on the memory of my mother. “To Question my Virtue is an act of treason” enter Ser Criston n encouraging my uncle on the dance floor helped people believe me 😂
Not to mention Rt is sleeping around knowing if she is caught her lovers r doomed to death n torture. Yes I can’t understand y Alicent doesn’t trust RT word for the last 10 years 😂
WHO is gaslighting again? lol
I agree what this guy fails to understand is that in the books the kids could very well not be bastards and everything still happened the same way and the dance still happened. People are going to believe whatever they want to believe. The bottom line is everyone who would “know” the legitimacy of the children (rhaenyra, Laenor, Viserys) have said numerous times they are not bastards. The real issue is the half the small dick men in westeros couldn’t come to terms with the thought of a woman ruling over them so they looked for any reason they could to not let her.
@@KingOfWinterlol book is different from show n yes they r bastards. If I adopt a black kid I can’t say he is biological mine because it’s a scientific fact. The king n everyone can say their not bastards but they r n Rhaenyra should realize the problem with ruling a sexist kingdom that she has to obey those rules.
If all Rt kids r legitimate Alicent would have sided with Rt, Aegon, Helena, Aemond, Criston won’t go to war n Boros would have sided with Rt. Would there be a rebellion yes but not one that will destroy the dragons.
Their r like 20 reasons y Rt should not be heir n being a women is definitely not the overall problem 😂
@jjosifovic Ok books are different from show then this world is different from theirs. There is no paternity test in their world and no real way of knowing if the kids are truly bastards or not. I’ve seen two pale white people have a super tan kid and I’ve seen two very dark black people have a kid so light skinned it could pass as white. First off in their world the Kings word is law and if the King says they aren’t bastards then they aren’t but even past that Laenor says he is their father and though he may be distant he never says or does anything that would imply those kids are not his. The only people who do act that way are the people who have the most to gain from the kids being bastards. What Rhaenrya and her husband do in their home is their business especially since they are the future king consort and queen of the kingdom. What rules? No king or queen can overcome slander that’s just part of ruling. It’s the lords that have to decide if they want to listen to it or not but there is no evidence so it’s all hearsay no matter what the children look like so as far as I’m concerned all the greens are traitors. Viserys should’ve married his daughter to Jace and dismissed his queen from court the second she started splitting up the family because no matter what the family had to stick together and no matter what the word of the king should be upheld or it only makes the Targaryens control over the kingdom weaker no matter who sits the throne. If Aegon II would’ve won the dance and lived he basically told all the other lords of westeros you only have to listen to the king when you agree with what he says. Which comes back to bite them big time after the dragons all die.
Not much would change, the dishonorable lords who supported Rhaenyra would support her nonetheless, I imagine how would people of true honor like Ned Stark or Jon Arryn react to such fallony and dishonor, having 3 bastard children was a very big deal with Cersei, can't imagine it would be less with Rhaenyra, but there wasn't any man with real honor to question that or to give that any mind.
People who supported Aegon supported him because they would benefit from it, not because it's the rightful thing, and the people who supported Rhaenyra are either the latter, or some idiots who think the words of a king matter after his death, dispite the clear fact Rhaenyra is unfaithful piece of crap Type 1 included the likes of the Arryns, Freys, Velaryons, Blackwoods
Type 2 included the likes of the Starks, and Tullys