What If Jacaerys Married Helaena? (House Of The Dragon)
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- Опубліковано 3 тра 2024
- Helaena's marriage to Aegon doesn't seem to be the happiest but once upon a time there was another option for the dreamer. Even though the offer failed to go through we saw a glimpse at what could have been between the queens only daughter and the heirs eldest son. Could the future have been brighter if they were wed all those years ago? Let's see.
#asoiaf #houseofthedragon #hotd #whatif - Розваги
Still waiting for a "what if Rhaenyra and Alicent were lovers"
I wish people would stop that.
@@carastone3473so out of all these outlandish what-ifs, that’s what you’re against the most?
💀💀💀
@@Chinchilla2310and ?
that’s just the show
What if Viserys acknowledged Rhaenyra's sons as illegitimate? Whether he legitimizes them later or not?
What if Viserys only have daughters with Alicent?
✅ *What if Jace & Helaena married?* ✅
What if Viserys had Aegon II married Rhaenyra *After* Laenor’s death?
What if Rhaenyra was like Jaehaerys The Conciliator?
What if Rhaenyra Targaryen married Borros Baratheon?
What if Viserys-I made Rhaenys Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death?
What if Viserys-I made Daemon Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death?
What if Aegon-III lived longer and made his Daughter Daena hair after the death of his sons?
Well that last one isn't really possible. His sons only died because of decisions they made as kings. Daeron can't start a war with Dorne until he's king, which won't happen if Aegon III is still alive.
One done, seven to go!
The Hand of the King one is interesting- because there's semi-precedent for it^; not strictly Hand - but in Jaehaerys' reign, though the 'official' Master of Coin was Martyn Tyrell- Septon Barth, the Hand, appointed him *specifically* because of who his wife was - Florence Fossoway was a highly intelligent young woman, who'd always had a way with accounting since young. While her husband had the title, it was an open secret that she was essentially managing the post.
There was also a later incidence of something similar, in Daeron II's reign, Ronnel Penrose was appointed Master of Coin, however, it was widely whispered that his wife, Princess Elaena Targaryen- the King's cousin was fulfilling the role.
Had Rhaenyra openly been appointed Hand, & she done well in the role- it might have opened the way for intelligent & capable women to have a place in governance, not just as honourary or unofficial posts in the Small Council, but in general -- it might have even opened a dialogue about equal primogeniture being adopted across the whole of Westeros (not just in Dorne), in time...
^The first occasion of a woman being openly appointed to a role, was unfortunately the infamous Tyanna of Pentos (Tyanna of the Tower)- as the first known* Master of Whisperers
Dowager Queen Alyssa was Regent in Jaehaerys' minority, & Queen Alysanne was openly known as one of her husband's closest & most trusted advisors, not just his consort- she was also instrumental in the creation of new laws protecting women, wives, & widows (Queen Rhaenys before her, had also had some influence in the codifying/ clarification of some laws- but most of her authority was more 'traditional' "soft power", that was associated with queens- patronage of the arts, arranging marriages for the realm's nobility, & the like)
In the sources, Alicent was noted as one of her son's advisors
Mysaria serves as Rhaenyra's unofficial Mistress of Whisperers
In Aegon III's reign, Lady Jeyne Arryn is named one of his Regents
There's a lot of historical gaps after Aegon III - Daeron II; & then there's several gaps between Aerys I - Jaehaerys II (who was cut from show continuity)- only a handful of Small Council members are known from those rulers' reigns.
In the present-day, Cersei's been Regent for her two sons - & Prince Doran Martell has been offered an untitled position on the Small Council, but Nymeria's been appointed to serve in his stead.
*It's implied that spymasters existed for First Men & Andal kings, before the Targaryen Conquest- & it was likely that Aegon & Aenys, too, had spymasters- but they remained unknown, because that was a virtue in their office...
Edit: word
1. No Dance (so far), but definitely later on. Alicent's daughters are married to important houses, making the Dance, when it comes, much more like a War of the Five Kings but with dragons than the Dance of our timeline.
2. Interesting....but you'd have to get Aemond to not lose his eye, and for Viserys to act decisively BEFORE Rhaenyra and Daemon marry, which was pretty much right after Laenor's """death""".
3. You'd have to change her characters quite a lot. Chances are she manages to reconcile her family earlier on, so again delaying the Dance.
4. I'm not sure if they'll have any sons, since Rhaenyra had only sons and Borros only daughters. Assuming they have a couple of both, Daemon wouldn't have married her, and it's possible Viserys will have Aegon married to Laena instead, bringing the Velaryons to the Green side. This is pretty terrible for Rhaenyra actually, since Laena rides Vhaegar, and house Velaryon has three dragons. With naval and aerial superiority, she'll be a fool to stay on dragonstone when Viserys dies, so she'll have to move to either Storm's End or less likely the Eyrie.
5. Can he even make a female Hand of the King? It would please Corlys, but I'm not totally sure about Rhaenys's governing abilities, given how we never saw her, um, govern at all.
6. I don't think he could have made him Hand after Lyonel's death, given how Otto basically immediately came back and Daemon was still in Pentos. And Daemon got himself banished in the same event that got Otto fired, so I'm not sure on that.
7. Um, Daeron and Baelor died of a) Dorne and b) fasting/poison, both dependent on them being king. So unless they died of "unforseen circumstances" before Aegon this literally can't happen.
If it did, then it's likely Viserys(Aegon's brother, not his grandfather) will marry his son Aegon to Daena to prevent a civil war, as they had an affair in our timeline.
So this basically just results in Daemon Blackfyre becoming king.
@@KaiHung-wv3ulwith 5, I feel like it would be a good compromise tbh. I mean, it's still an influential and important position so Rhaenyra still has influence on the throne, the only issues would be if Allicent's fear mongering and Aegon's reluctance and hedonism doesnt get in the way of Rhae's counseling. Also, that would be like a trial run for Westeros, like if the female hand did well, they would be more accepting of women in higher positions of power.
What if corlys never accepted rhaneyras bastards
Ooh thats good one
Rhaenyra is pretty much doomed.
Rhaena is the true loose end here, when it comes to marriage. It's true that a betrothal to Joffrey wouldn't bring much advantage, but Rhaenyra wouldn't be the only one, looking for that. As much as Otto and Alicent loathe Daemon, I could see them, rolling the proverbial dice and offering Aegon as a husband for the man's younger daughter. Otto could go over his head and try to sell the match to Corlys and Rhaenys. He knows that, even though the boys are illegitimate, Jacaerys's legal paternal grandparents are still willing to claim and put their support behind him. He'd present the match as a kind of security blanket, a "Either way, you'd get a grandchild on the Iron Throne"-type of deal. He'd hope that this balance would make the Velaryons not get involved in the growing conflict, which would mean Rhaenyra wouldn't have their fleet as part of her network. Of course, those would be Otto's, and possibly Alicent's hopes, but only theirs. The Velaryons wouldn't fall for it, though they could pretend to do so in public. Then, there's the Daemon factor. His hatred of the Hightowers, combined with his fierce protective streak towards those he loves, would mean he'd definitely do a lot of shady you-know-what behind the scenes, to prevent the wedding. Rhaenyra might advise him to calm down, reminding him about Helaena's dragon, Dreamfyre, and telling him that a marriage with Rhaena could be used to persuade Aegon to switch sides, and support his sister's claim. The prospect of also adding Sunfyre to their dragon roster might not be enough to soothe Daemon completely, though. On multiple occasions, Aegon has said and demonstrated that he doesn't want to be king. Because of that, Daemon might leave him alone, if the marriage to his daughter did take place. However, Aemond and Daeron would still be the proverbial elephants in the room. I wouldn't put it past him to go behind Rhaenyra's back and arrange for "accidents" to befall his two nephews, as well as any male children they might have at that point. If one or neither of them are married yet, or at least have no sons, he might take a different approach. Perhaps, he'd arrange for them to be beaten up and castrated, so they couldn't produce male heirs. That second option would definitely be more emotionally and mentally torturing for the Green faction. They could use murders to gain sympathy from anyone undecided in the conflict. But castrated sons, who either have no children between them at all, or only have daughters, would put the brakes on their plan to claim the throne, at least for a while. It would reset a lot, putting them way back at the space they were in, when Otto first pushed Alicent toward the king. The P.R. would be awkward, too. If the only cards they have left are girls, given that they believe only men should rule, then what would they really be fighting for? Their final chance would lie in the next generation, and whether or not they'd be willing to be patient for that long. (5/4/2024)
I have to say, Im kinda in the camp of people that thinks that things could have been better had this happend. It is a nice thought,
King Jacaerys "The Strong" & Queen Helaena "The Dreamer" , I feel Helaena would be happier on Dragonstone cause shed be able to explore and studdy insects to her hearts content, especially without Alisent shadowing her like she did in the show, and I cant help but feel that Rhaenyra would pick up the fact that Helaena has "DragonDreams" given the fact she belives more in them, and Helaena would probably be relieved that someone finally understands her, even if not well. Plus Rhaenyras and Daemons kids would treat Helaena well I imagine, they all seem to be pretty close with eachother, Daemon would probably give her the cold shoulder, but with Rhanyra keeping him in check, he could warm up to her. And Dreamfyre I imagine would also be alot happier on Dragonstone, free to fly and hunt as she pleases instead of being chained and locked at the depths of the Dragonpit.
It makes sence that the Aegon would get married to a Lannister, given the wealth and how close they and the Hightowers are, Aemond possibly to a Baratheon, Daeron could remain unmaried, but who knows. I feel like the events will be very similar and possibly on the brink of chaos and destruction, but I think Alicent might, just might come around to slowly been okay with Rhaenyra as queen given how happy Helaena seemed to be on Dragonstone and with Jace, and for the love of her and her grandchildren. Im also curious to see if Rhaenyra would even be willing to try to push for Baela to be Lady of Driftmark, as she was both fostered and tought by Rhaenys how to rule the seat, along with allowing true Valaryon blood to have the driftwood throne, she could still try a maridge with Luke as Baelas consort but who knows.
I think that the Dance would be postponed *for now.
With the two families somewhat reconciled, Otto is free to pair marriages for Alicent's sons, which would probably look something like Aegon marrying Cassandra Baratheon, Aemond marrying a Lannister, and Daeron marrying a girl from houses like the Rowans or Fossoways or even Martells. But this aint solving the real issue, and Aegon/Aemond/Daeron's descendents will still go for the throne later down the line, especially with the obvious fact of the Strong boys' bastardy. This alternate Dance of the Dragons is likely to be even more destructive, as each side is likely to have more dragons, with a longer peace.
I have some suggestions for future scenarios:
What if Otto actually arranged politically advantageous marriages for Alicent's children?
What if Daemon died in the Stepstones?
What if Corlys Velaryon actually died from his "mortal injury" prior to episode 8?
What if Viserys married someone else? (neither Laena nor Alicent)
What if Rhaenyra actually found a suitable suitor during her shopping trip for husbands?
“shopping trip for husbands” 🙂↕️
What if Rhaenyra married, Rickon Stark. He actual is the same age as her.
@@kjellduteweert9262
You mean Cregan's son?
Has there been a 'what if' for her marrying Harwin?
@@OcarinaSapphr- Cregan's father, I think.
What if Rhaenyra accepted Aegon's peace offering in episode 10? What would her relationship with her faction and the greens be like? Surely, daemon wouldn't be happy
"Accepted"
@@alfieingrouille1528 Thank you
They probably would have made Helaena fight in the war
Would Jace and Helena have any kids yet? That’d really throw a wrench into things.
How does Helaena feel about her new husband? They got along just fine in canon, Jace is a lot kinder than Aegon.
Does Helaena still have Dreamfyre?
Top content as always Thx
What if both Baelon and Aemma live
What if both Rhaegar and Lyanna live
1) No Dance, might have different issues but not as bad as the dance
What if Maegor made Aegon the uncrowned his heir
What if alecent had only daughters?
Bros posture in the thumbnail is nyyaasssttyy
Honestly I don't see why Alicent would still want to crown Aegon and potentially start a war when her daughter is on the opposite side and is going to be queen someday. Maybe Otto would still want to do it but I think Alicent would stand against him.
Amazing video.
As for my thoughts, I agree that Jace marrying Helaena wouldn’t stop the dance at all.
But now Alicent has grandchildren by Jace & Helaena, curious about what Alicent thinks of her grandchildren?
Especially if Helaena said how happy she is with Jace, like how they dance with each other in canon, Alicent might feel conflicted about endangering her only daughter.
Question is would Rhaenyra allow Helaena to fight with her dragon Dreamfyre?
Whice family would Helaena take priority, her mother and brothers, or her husband and children?
Helaena wasn’t close with Aegon-II even in canon while theirs some “rumours” about Aemond loving Helaena.
It’s more likely she’ll fight for the Black since her children are Jace and he would’ve respected her more then Aegon-II.
All in all, just all around cluster f**k of an families killing each others, it’s not stopping Aegon-II of being King, if it isn’t Alicent, then it’s Otto Hightower.
Definitely want an part two to this, can’t wait for HOTD season 2!
What if that boar killed rhaneyra in Kingswood
Less issues for the court but I doubt that would do wonders for Viserys' mental health. I mean, guy wouldve lose his last connection to his late wife.
Also, Cole wouldve suffered serious consequences for getting the princess killed
What if Rhaenyra married Harwin.
He already made that video
I imagine this timeline Haelena would survive the Dance.
I still think in the books they aren't bastards. As for Rhaenyra she should have bethroted. Her sons to other great lords. Jace to : Cassandra Baratheon > Luke to Baela/Rhaena. > Cergan to Rhaena/Baela. > Viserys to A reach houss > Aegon > A Vale or riverland house. Bingo power in the back or atleast more so then in canon.
I wonder what would've happened if Aemond either survived or killed Daemon. Would he have become king or would he be in line for the throne after Aegon and Viserys (Rhaenyra's sons)?
/spoilers
* What if Jace Velaryon lived?
* What if Ned Stark accepted the Iron Throne, instead of Robert?
What if Jacaerys married Sara Snow before the dance?
Two questions; Is the scenario that he married her in Baela's place - *_or_* is the argument that they were married by First Men custom, & thus his betrothal & eventual marriage to Baela is unaffected, because he'd be marrying her by Andal/ Valyrian custom?
I was thinking that Jacaerys could foster in winterfell to strengthen the bond between the black. His relation with Sara Snow could grow into love and act on it, marri her without consulting his mother ( rhaenyra).
Rheanyra did the same thing with daemon in the show so why not
So if it happen at winterfell They will be following firt men tradition.
His bethrotal with Baela will be the point of tension since the religion of the old god isn’t really respected by the andal and the valyrian.
Honestly, anything involving Helaena finding some happiness, I'm here for it 😢
Helaena will not find any happiness in marrying blacks when she is a hostage against greens.
@@heartlesslove9084
Who's to say she'd ever think of herself as their hostage- she wasn't even aware initially that Aemond was insulting them -- she could appeal to her family for peaceful relations...
@OcarinaSapphr- she is the pawn for both sides so she is not the one to appeal for peace.
@@heartlesslove9084 she would kinda be a hostage but at the same time, Jace would treat her better than Aegon ever did so she would have found some degree of happiness. 🥺
@@heartlesslove9084 Jace wouldn't be treating her like a 'pawn' or 'hostage'. He's a very good man and would've pampered her like the princess she is. Helaena would've been much happier with Jace instead of her abusive brother.
cant really say the baratheon genes take when they had brown hair and eyes with pug noses
Helaena is also ridiculously fertile you can tell by her hips, she and Jace would have had probably one and two kids by a year and a couple of months
Rhaenyra’s sons have brown hair, not black, so the excuse of Rhaenys does not work.
Always found it really strange that Rhaenys had so much power over her grandchildren. (I assume the show did it for the drama and tension. Or they forgot how things worked in this period/world.) The only person who can approve of the twin's marriage is Daemon, their father. Rhaenys has no real power, it all lies with her husband. That's why his cousins (and brother? They're vaguely mentioned to boost the whole 'bastard' theory- book-wise, I actually think it's just propaganda.) via the throne for control of Driftmark. Rhaenys is a woman and can't inherit her husband's titles (Look at Daemon on Runestone. They kicked out the brother of the King.) and they obviously don't think his granddaughter born of his daughter has any claim either.
Anyway, I personally love this little 'What If'. There's no love lost for Helaena marrying Jace, especially as she's about 2 years older, I think? So by the Dance they'd for sure be married. Fostering on Dragonstone would have been a done deal, probably right after the funeral. I like to imagine Rhaenyra taking Helaena on as the daughter she'd never have.
Edit: Sorry for the double comment, it has been removed.
It's not that she has power over her granddaughters per se, it's that she is de facto head of Velaryon house due to being Corlys' wife as Corlys is still alive. The law is not really elaborated upon, but in case of medieval rules where I live, as long as the rulling pair lives, they overrule patriliniality.
Rhaenys, as wife of head of Velaryon household, is the second in authority and as such decides matters of mariage. Also Daemon is Targaryen and is maried into the family and his link to Velaryons (his wife) is now dead and he is remarried back to Targs. It is overall pretty complicated matter and medieval laws about such things were convoluted as shit.
make a what if Aegon V didn't die in The Tragedy of summerhall, and had managed to hatch dragon eggs, let's say 3 dragon eggs to make it interesting, how would that change history from that point o,n with no one dying in summerhall and dragons returning to the world?
That'd be pretty wild- they'd have to work out who among them was dragonriders -- in canon, some dragons were hatched when their riders were babies (it was a custom that was apparently started by Aegon I's eldest grandchild, Rhaena- who put eggs in her younger siblings' cradles).
OMG; I have a follow-up 'What If': what if *Rhaegar* was a dragon-rider...?
An interesting what if but, I rewatch the what ifs with Maegor the bronze dragon and what if Daemon became king of the narrow sea and to he honest I think does what if would work if you combined them together think about it with a son Daemon might try more bolder plans and if he becomes king of the narrow sea and stays it than haivng a son in the vale and the head of the most powerful house who knows what would happen
He is absolutely not a bastard by law. Yes, there are a lot of rumors, but legally (meaning, by law) he is the legitimate son of Laenor and Rhaenyra. And I'm sorry, but without DNA tests, there is no way to disprove that. Not resembling a parent is not proof (or else Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon would have issues), and the only people who could really cause trouble and seriously dispute his legitimacy (Rhaenyra, Laenor, Corlys, and Viserys) aren't doing it.
They didn't need dna test because it wasn't invented. The appearance and testimonies of others were enough to accuse someone
Stark children look like their mother. So do Alicent's children look like Viserys. Rhaenyra's sons don't look like her or her husband
I agree with you. But in fairness all those stark children looked just like their mother Catelyn
Show Jace and Luke dont resemble either parents or grandparents
@@justinehelene4831 Sure, but queen Alysanne didn't look like her parents. People chalked it up to resembling a grandparent. The Velaryon boys have Arryn and Baratheon ancestry. People can talk, but there's really no way to disprove they're Laenor's kids.
There is absolutely a way to prove bastardy without having DNA tests. Genetics don't work in ASOIAF as they do in reality & this is what kicked off the main series with Ned's investigation. Certain families have trademark characteristics.
- The Baratheons have jet-black hair & blue eyes.
- Tullys have auburn hair.
- Targaryens typically have silver hair & violet eyes & sharp facial features.
- Strongs have mud brown hair and brown eyes.
Jace, Luke & Joffrey all looked like Strongs despite "both" their parents being Valyrian with Valyrian features.
Also, the copout of "Well, Rhaenys had Baratheon hair in canon" that many casuals love to parrot, fundamentally does not hold. Baratheon jet-black hair is NOT the same as Strong mud brown hair. There's also the issue of the eyes.
Then there's the issue of grandparents; Rhaenys is the only one with non-valyrian hair yet she still has Valyrian eyes. There was never serious ambiguity about whether or not the Strong boys were bastards in the story world.
@@seanp2871 Most ppl don't realize that if the Strong boys didn't have their own dragons, ppl would've questioned if they were even Rhaenyra's kids.
Somebody in an earlier comment section wrote: What if Rhaenyra died at childbirth? This depends on which child but I go with the first.
King Viserys I unintentionally did everything to start a civil war I wouldn't be surprised if he named Jace as his heir. Jace could still engage himself to a daughter of Lena Velaryon.
Another scenario: What if Rhaenyra died when she gave birth for 6th time? A baby that was born dead was meant to be a baby girl named Visenya? Rhaenyra would die right after King Viserys I. I imagine Prince Daemon would still go to a civil war against the team Green.
Agreed; he'd have 3 stepchildren & 3 children to fight for (assuming Visenya lived instead of Rhaenyra)- as Rhaenyra was Viserys' heir, he would state that her children still come before Alicent's.
In present-day ASoI&F- the minor Karstark branch are trying to get hold of Alys, because she's her brother's heir - it's established that a senior-line female is ahead of a cadet branch male, but it doesn't always prove that cut-&-dried...
I would love to see a what if where Awmond becomes the king and betrays Aegon
Daeron revenge part 3 please
aegon marrying a tyrell and daeron marrying a lannister would be best especially because the tyrell marriage is a double alliance with hightower and tyrell and targaryen and tyrell and the lannisters already back the greens anyway
What if Daemon stayed in pentos
What if King viserys and Queen aemmas had mire surviving child but all born girls
the dance gets pushed down a few generations to Daemons sons vs the Strong sons
Eso mismo he pensado yo.por que me sorprende que damon permite a unos bastardos por encima de sus hijos
What if Alicent was baren or had only daughters?
Barren means infertal So she could not have any children Boys or girls
Idk whether people realize this nobody needs alicent in agreeing to marry helaena to jace. Rhaenyra could directly demand viserys for helaena or she can manipulate helaena into marrying jace. One word from King helaena will be easily given away like rhaenyra was given to laenor.
What if Alicent and Criston Cole married?
part of rhaneys burning greens ?
"Erases Helaena's children", unless they really are Aemonds 😉
What if Aegon II had married someone else? would he had been a different man