Whilst I don't know the circumstances....it seems likely given what I've experienced of the CofE and heard anecdotally from other clergy is that the lay people may be agitated by a small group of very difficult individuals who are more interested in building their own little empire instead of God's Kingdom and they will drastically reject any priest who tries to lead them with effective leadership and vision. They'll often find any excuse to cause issues and in extreme cases can even make life hell for vicars. Because the CofE has almost no discipline or HR processes for lay people and diosecan hieracy will infrequently use what little power they have over lay office holders this means that whole parishes can grind to a halt or even be split. The emotional damage to clergy and their families can be irreparable. My prayers are with all involved in this.
But a big part of the job is to manage all of that. Leading a church is all about helping people use their gifts well. Anyone who can't do that ought to find another job.
as an ex-Anglican my observation is that the decline of the CofE is due to PCCs, Deanery Synods and Diocesan Synods. As to the General Synod; the least said the better.
I agree, but there is also the way Sam ?(can't remember his surname) a lay member of synod I think, was treated by his bishop, when he stood against the SSBlessing decision at General Synod - again, I don't know the full details. As parents, we know there are usually two sides to every story!
Dan, I am an Anglican priest with over 45 years of service in full-time ministry. Here is what I have learned about conflict in the Church that reaches these levels. It is ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE (except safeguarding issues) about only ONE thing: TAKING OFFENSE and UNFORGIVENESS. It is NOT rational. It is emotional. It begins with ONE who poisons the group via grumbling and gossip. Seek out the ring leader, and invite him/her to depart. The BISHOP should do this, however they are generally wanna-be mediators. I have coached clergy through these situations: Just change the names and situations, and it's ALWAYS the same. If the Bishop stood behind the priest FIRST - the ringleaders would leave. Then the Bishop could coach the clergyman and move forward. Sometimes its better to empty the church and begin with one or two, God will bless the remnant. My spidey senses tell me this has been a church in conflict for many decades, unless they were able to "run their own church" as the Rector stood quietly and went alone with those who hold "ownership" and was a mere caretaker. ONLY A BISHOP with a spine (an endangered species) can quickly solve. IT IS NOT A WIN-WIN situation. It is a "Jesus wins, You lose" if you grumble, gossip, hold secret meetings, and bully. The church isn't a democracy. We have lost our courage. Something tells me St. Paul would put out a few "under Satan"......
Rev Dan said that this was one church of three. The C.of E. is managing declining congregations and shortages of priests by gouping parishes together, often geographically with little regard to chuchmanship (worship style) so it's entire possible that the other two churches are happy with Anglo-Catholic style of leadership and worship and so effectively out-voted this church in the interviewing panel.
Churchgoers should realise they do not select their Vicar but God does and must listen to what the vicar says in order to find God through him. People should respect those ordained more for they are ordained and called by God
Hi chess Draughts, God does not select vicars, the hierarchy of this system does. The Bible states that the function of the apostles is now redundant, since the death of the last apostle ( John on Patmos?) till the last of the elders in the 1st century, and now that the new testament is completed and a closed canon ( meaning closed to new revelation). The Anglican apostolic succession from Agustin of Canterbury, is actually Antichrist, like the popes lineage from the apostle Peter. In Matthew 7:21-23 many will try convince Jesus of all there works, which to some extent Jesus did work through, but they, church hierarchies and Christian performing these things never knew him. God did and does not initiate the Anglican. Roman or any other Church hierarchy, but still can and does work through it, why? Because of hardened heart towards the truth, and will condemn the same on judgment day.
If one looks up the word Vicar in Latin it means "instead of " in the place of "substitute." The Koine Greek words of the above derives from the Greek word "Anti" ( in place of Christ) and because Satan has placed Church hierarchies in place of Christ, it means also "against" Christ, as "Anti" means also "against."
The most important thing is that the church is preaching the gospel through the word. And revealing our beloved saviour. I went to a high C/E church when I was desperately searching. I even got confirmed. But I never found what I was looking for. I was so spiritually hungry. I have also been to churches where the congregation thought it knew better than the Pasteur. There again I have been to churches where the leaders didn’t seem to know the gospel.
The benefice was in the position where they were offered one candidate and a "take it or leave it" option. I agree that more problems of this kind ahead, not least because of the reduction in the autonomy of the parish.
The Incumbents (Vacation of Benefices) Measure 1977 deals with occasions where there has been a serious breakdown in the pastoral relationship between the incumbent and the parishioners. I don't know why they don't use that here. The Measure allows for an inquiry to be made at the request of the incumbent, the archdeacon or two-thirds of the lay members of the PCC. There are lots of really hard working clergy, but many just need to take the hint and leave. Congregations don't call votes of no confidence for no reason.
It could also be the reverse of what you implied. Maybe they had a vote of no confidence because a clique of unpleasnt bullies ha relentlessly led a smear campaign against the priest....wouldn't be the first time that sort of thing went down in the CofE.
As a long term Christian my philosophy has always been either support the church you attend, or find another one. Every style of worship has its good and not so good points. The main challenge is to avoid heresy.
This is so sad. Neither side seems willing to give an inch. A new vicar or priest often brings new ideas and ways of doing things. I have seen it with my own eyes. As long as the Gospel is being proclaimed, and the sacraments offered, the parishioners should be open to working with the priest to grow the church. We sing to the Lord. We prepare the flowers and the Altar for the Lord.
The media is on a roll against C of E. Need to hear both sides. M Laity and Vicars can 'hide' behind The Holy Spirit' told me...an unassailable stand. The other hand is we seek the leading of the Holy Spirit. If a church doesn't want you , it doesn't want you. So who is at fault, the congregation or the Vicar. We pray.
This is why I say dump the PCC and go for collegiate churches and plurality of elders. I wish we vote for 12 Elders and / Stewards who will then be voted as Priests and Deacons to assist the Incumbent Priest or College of Canons. This means roughly 20 clergymen to a Parish. The PCC is dangerous for rural situations because of the risk of isolation and work overload for the priest and the problem of lack of care and mission. Best is do not let anyone over the age of 55 be voted as elder. It stops the PCC aging and unwilling to do much. I am transitioning my Church to this model slowly albeit without the ordained Stwwards and Elders. They will be unordained. I have a huge benefice covering a city and we are really struggling.
I agree with your title "The church is tearing itself apart " and to be completely impartial as you said there may be people who want him out for no good reason but equally he may not be a " man of God". There seems to have been a bomb under him and he has just started to think about reconciliation. If vicars are going to carry on just thinking; they are right, the church of England will just keep sinking into the dark and attendances will keep falling
no wonder he only arrives a short time before services, an 8 am 9:15 and 11 am service. and no wonder people can't get to know him, when he is meant to be able to get to know people. he is now off sick the poor bloke.
It is incredible to think that a church could be so rediculously petty to actually think things like, where a particular anthem goes within a service ect, is of any importance. I can not comment on the vicar in question, but this situation makes the church parishioners look entirley Un Christian, who appear either ignorant of what it is to live as Christians, or just completley apathetic and disinterested in living as Christians, as a wittness to the world around.
It is nothing to do with pettiness as to where in the service an anthem is sung. The vicar in this situation is a High Churchman and, therefore very liturgically aware. Where the anthem goes has significance in the pattern of Worship being offered. It is all to do with symbolism, which, I suspect, is not appreciated or understood by this group of laypeople of a more Low Church persuasion.
@@jem2264 I understand, but at the end of the day, regardless of tradition or churchmanship, things like where an anthem fits withing the liturgy is not particularly important. We are called to live out the Great Commission, which is what being a Christian is all about, not to have petty squabbles about insignificant things
@@helenbond8893 I mean this more generally, about the squabbles: I think one problem is narcissism. it's legion throughout western countries. How can one even understand the bible and not know what love is? narcissists generally grow up knowing an ersatz love. and then like in In Matthew 28:18-20, (Jesus tells his followers, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you) they read the commandments without knowing what love is BTW Those are the false prophets and false teachers IMHO.
Every Anglican Community/Parish is having to square up to the ambiguity of the Elizabethan Settlement. Is the CofE Catholic, as in the the Creeds, or Protestant as in the 39 articles? If it is Catholic then there is a place where it belongs. The Ordinariate now shows the Roman Church bending over backwards for re-union. More and more people are comfortable with that proposition including the former Bishop of Rochester (successor of Saint John Fisher) and founder of "GAFCON". If it is Protestant then crack, on stop wearing the vestments and return to your surplices going back to the North end. Fact is it is a Tudor Government invention that begins in 1535 and remains as "By Law established" as we saw on May 6th. So it is only right that it should conform with what the establishment demands, including the PRIDE agenda.
worry not, preach Christ crucified and the message of the Cross,,if God has called you than no man can silence you,, doesnt matter about the institution,,encourage your fellow true christians, and follow Christ. be couragous,,and rest in the truth.
The problem is narcissism and subjective truth. Those are the false leaders and prophets IMHO Arriving at truth can take a lifetime. It's not something that happens all in a flash like it did with Paul. The born again experience may be just the beginning. Truth can be anamorphic and then slowly come into focus.
It's difficult to comment. We need to know so much more. The obvious question is - what is the diocese doing? What is the archdeacon doing? If the archdeacon is too busy, can the Rural Dean, or a retired bishop or archdeacon, act on his behalf?
In a changing world, rural ministry can be complex and very challenging for all concerned. That is why i find it difficult to comment. Your answer appears to me to be simplistic.
I think the archdeacon was involved at one of the meetings - so they are aware of the situation to some degree (though whether they can do much about it is hard to judge without more context)
@@michaelharrison2405 It's simplistic because a lot of laity bully clergy especially in little country parishes where they are very small minded and many dioceses throw their clergy under a bus so to speak.
It depends on what you call the church. Is it the building or the people? It depends if through this Vicar whether the church is growing. I refer to the Wesley Brothers. They were too lively. They were chucked out of the church and went onto the streets and revival happened. But not everybody will be happy to see revival.
John and Charles Wesley were here in my town as young pastors. They wanted to preach to the Indians and John fell in love, refusing in a snit to give Holy Communion to his crush, who rejected him. Their passionate, emotional personalities needed refining. They went home and prayed a lot. By the way, they never left the Church of England...they were considering it but Charles absolutely wouldn't. I believe they saw the dangers of wild untethered emotions and cherry picked Bible verses.....
I think this one is a little one sided. I have significant distrust in the recruitment process of the CofE these days. I know career priests who say they "do God well" but personally don't hold convictions of faith. This blew my mind when I heard this.
I was troubled by your comments on this issue. I see this an issue between a priest and his congregation. We can speculate. It is not uncommon that there is a bad fit with an employee even after a rigorous process. To quote Bishop George Arnold, 'Where was the man in purple.' He had the responsibility to ensure a good fit. If one is not possible, he is responsible to ensure both parties are well aware of potential problems and works with them overcome them. To come to a point where what there is an open revolt, the bishop failed. The archdeacon should not have been at the meeting, it should have been the bishop. He should have known the of the situation. If he did not he is a poor shepherd. I also can see all these problems are much more likely to occur when the Diocese of Truro brings in their new ministry model.
@@monoingles The bishop license the clergy, the bishop confirms all placements, the bishops remove all clergy from their posts and the bishop has the authority to defrock a priest. He as the chief shepherd of the flock, to see they are hearing and being taught in the ways of the Lord. This is the bishops responsibility. He can delegate, but he cannot delegate his responsibility. When a situation occurs like it did in this parish, he must accept his responsibility, be there get his hands dirty. Don't send someone who has no authority to take action, that was required when you knew that you were putting an anglo-catholic in a low church parish. By not accepting responsibility earlier a mess has been created and both sides look bad and he comes out smelling like a rose.
why? Anglican vicars are priests, they can therefore correctly be called 'Father'. if you want 'ministers' then the Baptists, or Methodists, or Calvinists or Pentecostalists are your people.
Steeple Ashton, hmm, if I am not mistaken, is one of those pretty, twee little Vicar of Dibley places where time has been in reverse so long it doesn't know how to get into forward gear. The diocese should never put a vicar, rector or whatever whose defence of propriety is that the 'holy spirit' said such and such in a place like that. Otherwise we will hear news broadcasts of the Wiltshire vicar who died when the weathervane snapped off the top of the church spire and impaled him to the ground! But when there are parishioners hoping that 'the holy spirit gets the message', the headlines are likely to read, 'Many feared dead as beautiful village church collapses onto congregation'
Supposing some of the people who have come against the vicar have prayed and God has told them he should go. Its not only church of England vicars who hear from God
This is an interesting story but in my humble opinion a Priest cannot just discern themselves into being a dictator. I think that a Priest has a responsibility to act in the best interests of the Church. I don't think that a Priest can just discern themselves to be alone in the Church with the Holy Spirit. You need some people as well!
Rev Dan, I'm sorry to say you're commenting here without knowing enough of what's caused the situation, (as you admit). Naturally, you're aghast at the possibility there's been "bullying". But you're not considering the possiblity that the clergyman's claim to have the endorsment of the Holy Spirit (while
They say you can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time! There was a time when I attended a church with a 'difficult' vicar, who made decisions without preparing the congregation or letting them know his reasoning, so changes upset people rather than bringing them alongside.
Heaven forbid that an 18th century organ and listed building would not be maintained under his leadership! Sell up your cold monuments to a bygone age to the English heritage, rediscover the Gospel and get evangelising Church!
it isn't either/or. Christians need to be practical about Church buildings, they always have been especially since the 4th century when the persecutions ended. Who are you to say the priest or people involved need to re-discover the Gospel?
@marcokite The CofE would care a lot less about organs, climate change, and fitting in with wokeness if they understood the Great Commission and the Good News of Jesus Christ! I can only assume the majority haven't understood it and hence busy themselves with this Vicar of Dibley nonsense! Get busy living for Christ CofE or pack up your priceless artifacts and accept that you are spiritually dead!
That choir that is refusing to sing fail to understand their purpose. You are supposed to sing unto the Lord, not for anyone else.
Whilst I don't know the circumstances....it seems likely given what I've experienced of the CofE and heard anecdotally from other clergy is that the lay people may be agitated by a small group of very difficult individuals who are more interested in building their own little empire instead of God's Kingdom and they will drastically reject any priest who tries to lead them with effective leadership and vision. They'll often find any excuse to cause issues and in extreme cases can even make life hell for vicars. Because the CofE has almost no discipline or HR processes for lay people and diosecan hieracy will infrequently use what little power they have over lay office holders this means that whole parishes can grind to a halt or even be split. The emotional damage to clergy and their families can be irreparable. My prayers are with all involved in this.
But a big part of the job is to manage all of that. Leading a church is all about helping people use their gifts well. Anyone who can't do that ought to find another job.
@@harrparr8988 No its not a big part of a priests job to manage bullies, liars and abusive people. 🙄
as an ex-Anglican my observation is that the decline of the CofE is due to PCCs, Deanery Synods and Diocesan Synods. As to the General Synod; the least said the better.
@@marcokite In most of the growing denominations the church committee can fire tha pastor on a whim.
I agree, but there is also the way Sam ?(can't remember his surname) a lay member of synod I think, was treated by his bishop, when he stood against the SSBlessing decision at General Synod - again, I don't know the full details.
As parents, we know there are usually two sides to every story!
Dan, I am an Anglican priest with over 45 years of service in full-time ministry. Here is what I have learned about conflict in the Church that reaches these levels. It is ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE (except safeguarding issues) about only ONE thing: TAKING OFFENSE and UNFORGIVENESS. It is NOT rational. It is emotional. It begins with ONE who poisons the group via grumbling and gossip. Seek out the ring leader, and invite him/her to depart. The BISHOP should do this, however they are generally wanna-be mediators. I have coached clergy through these situations: Just change the names and situations, and it's ALWAYS the same. If the Bishop stood behind the priest FIRST - the ringleaders would leave. Then the Bishop could coach the clergyman and move forward. Sometimes its better to empty the church and begin with one or two, God will bless the remnant. My spidey senses tell me this has been a church in conflict for many decades, unless they were able to "run their own church" as the Rector stood quietly and went alone with those who hold "ownership" and was a mere caretaker. ONLY A BISHOP with a spine (an endangered species) can quickly solve. IT IS NOT A WIN-WIN situation. It is a "Jesus wins, You lose" if you grumble, gossip, hold secret meetings, and bully. The church isn't a democracy. We have lost our courage. Something tells me St. Paul would put out a few "under Satan"......
you asked the $6 million question - if the guy is Anglo-Catholic why was he chosen by a 'low church' parish?
Rev Dan said that this was one church of three. The C.of E. is managing declining congregations and shortages of priests by gouping parishes together, often geographically with little regard to chuchmanship (worship style) so it's entire possible that the other two churches are happy with Anglo-Catholic style of leadership and worship and so effectively out-voted this church in the interviewing panel.
Well, I pray for peace and the Lord’s work to be done ❤
I hear the call to pray for this situation and will do so. May God’s Kingdom be established in this situation
I will light a candle of prayer.
Churchgoers should realise they do not select their Vicar but God does and must listen to what the vicar says in order to find God through him. People should respect those ordained more for they are ordained and called by God
Hi chess Draughts,
God does not select vicars, the hierarchy of this system does.
The Bible states that the function of the apostles is now redundant, since the death of the last apostle ( John on Patmos?) till the last of the elders in the 1st century, and now that the new testament is completed and a closed canon ( meaning closed to new revelation).
The Anglican apostolic succession from Agustin of Canterbury, is actually Antichrist, like the popes lineage from the apostle Peter.
In Matthew 7:21-23 many will try convince Jesus of all there works, which to some extent Jesus did work through, but they, church hierarchies and Christian performing these things never knew him.
God did and does not initiate the Anglican. Roman or any other Church hierarchy, but still can and does work through it, why? Because of hardened heart towards the truth, and will condemn the same on judgment day.
If one looks up the word Vicar in Latin it means "instead of " in the place of "substitute." The Koine Greek words of the above derives from the Greek word "Anti" ( in place of Christ) and because Satan has placed Church hierarchies in place of Christ, it means also "against" Christ, as "Anti" means also "against."
there's semantic drift as well. Can you expand on your point please.
The most important thing is that the church is preaching the gospel through the word. And revealing our beloved saviour. I went to a high C/E church when I was desperately searching. I even got confirmed. But I never found what I was looking for. I was so spiritually hungry. I have also been to churches where the congregation thought it knew better than the Pasteur. There again I have been to churches where the leaders didn’t seem to know the gospel.
The benefice was in the position where they were offered one candidate and a "take it or leave it" option. I agree that more problems of this kind ahead, not least because of the reduction in the autonomy of the parish.
That should never be an option!
I know the village where both churches and the whole village work as one before he came and blew years of bliss apart
The church is not tearing itself apart. It was exposed as being full of groomers so in response the groomers are mounting a hostile takeover.
The Incumbents (Vacation of Benefices) Measure 1977 deals with occasions where there has been a serious breakdown in the pastoral relationship between the incumbent and the parishioners. I don't know why they don't use that here. The Measure allows for an inquiry to be made at the request of the incumbent, the archdeacon or two-thirds of the lay members of the PCC. There are lots of really hard working clergy, but many just need to take the hint and leave. Congregations don't call votes of no confidence for no reason.
It could also be the reverse of what you implied. Maybe they had a vote of no confidence because a clique of unpleasnt bullies ha relentlessly led a smear campaign against the priest....wouldn't be the first time that sort of thing went down in the CofE.
What a sad situation to be in . A great lack of communication and honest talking one to one.
As a long term Christian my philosophy has always been either support the church you attend, or find another one. Every style of worship has its good and not so good points. The main challenge is to avoid heresy.
This is so sad. Neither side seems willing to give an inch. A new vicar or priest often brings new ideas and ways of doing things. I have seen it with my own eyes. As long as the Gospel is being proclaimed, and the sacraments offered, the parishioners should be open to working with the priest to grow the church. We sing to the Lord. We prepare the flowers and the Altar for the Lord.
The media is on a roll against
C of E. Need to hear both sides. M
Laity and Vicars can 'hide' behind The Holy Spirit' told me...an unassailable stand.
The other hand is we seek the leading of the Holy Spirit.
If a church doesn't want you , it doesn't want you.
So who is at fault, the congregation or the Vicar.
We pray.
This is why I say dump the PCC and go for collegiate churches and plurality of elders. I wish we vote for 12 Elders and / Stewards who will then be voted as Priests and Deacons to assist the Incumbent Priest or College of Canons. This means roughly 20 clergymen to a Parish. The PCC is dangerous for rural situations because of the risk of isolation and work overload for the priest and the problem of lack of care and mission. Best is do not let anyone over the age of 55 be voted as elder. It stops the PCC aging and unwilling to do much.
I am transitioning my Church to this model slowly albeit without the ordained Stwwards and Elders. They will be unordained. I have a huge benefice covering a city and we are really struggling.
I agree with your title "The church is tearing itself apart " and to be completely impartial as you said there may be people who want him out for no good reason but equally he may not be a " man of God".
There seems to have been a bomb under him and he has just started to think about reconciliation.
If vicars are going to carry on just thinking; they are right, the church of England will just keep sinking into the dark and attendances will keep falling
A comment on the newspaper articles. Quotation marks are not required on the vicar’s assertion of Guided By The Holy Spirit!
no wonder he only arrives a short time before services, an 8 am 9:15 and 11 am service. and no wonder people can't get to know him, when he is meant to be able to get to know people. he is now off sick the poor bloke.
It is incredible to think that a church could be so rediculously petty to actually think things like, where a particular anthem goes within a service ect, is of any importance. I can not comment on the vicar in question, but this situation makes the church parishioners look entirley Un Christian, who appear either ignorant of what it is to live as Christians, or just completley apathetic and disinterested in living as Christians, as a wittness to the world around.
It is nothing to do with pettiness as to where in the service an anthem is sung. The vicar in this situation is a High Churchman and, therefore very liturgically aware. Where the anthem goes has significance in the pattern of Worship being offered. It is all to do with symbolism, which, I suspect, is not appreciated or understood by this group of laypeople of a more Low Church persuasion.
@@jem2264 I understand, but at the end of the day, regardless of tradition or churchmanship, things like where an anthem fits withing the liturgy is not particularly important. We are called to live out the Great Commission, which is what being a Christian is all about, not to have petty squabbles about insignificant things
@@helenbond8893 I mean this more generally, about the squabbles:
I think one problem is narcissism. it's legion throughout western countries. How can one even understand the bible and not know what love is? narcissists generally grow up knowing an ersatz love. and then like in In Matthew 28:18-20, (Jesus tells his followers, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you) they read the commandments without knowing what love is BTW Those are the false prophets and false teachers IMHO.
Every Anglican Community/Parish is having to square up to the ambiguity of the Elizabethan Settlement. Is the CofE Catholic, as in the the Creeds, or Protestant as in the 39 articles? If it is Catholic then there is a place where it belongs. The Ordinariate now shows the Roman Church bending over backwards for re-union. More and more people are comfortable with that proposition including the former Bishop of Rochester (successor of Saint John Fisher) and founder of "GAFCON". If it is Protestant then crack, on stop wearing the vestments and return to your surplices going back to the North end. Fact is it is a Tudor Government invention that begins in 1535 and remains as "By Law established" as we saw on May 6th. So it is only right that it should conform with what the establishment demands, including the PRIDE agenda.
These heathens who think God the creator of all mankind can forgive there blaspheme against him should repent all there sins
worry not, preach Christ crucified and the message of the Cross,,if God has called you than no man can silence you,, doesnt matter about the institution,,encourage your fellow true christians, and follow Christ. be couragous,,and rest in the truth.
The problem is narcissism and subjective truth. Those are the false leaders and prophets IMHO Arriving at truth can take a lifetime. It's not something that happens all in a flash like it did with Paul. The born again experience may be just the beginning. Truth can be anamorphic and then slowly come into focus.
It's difficult to comment. We need to know so much more. The obvious question is - what is the diocese doing? What is the archdeacon doing? If the archdeacon is too busy, can the Rural Dean, or a retired bishop or archdeacon, act on his behalf?
Probably the diocese is sitting on the fence or siding with the squabbling laity.
In a changing world, rural ministry can be complex and very challenging for all concerned. That is why i find it difficult to comment. Your answer appears to me to be simplistic.
I think the archdeacon was involved at one of the meetings - so they are aware of the situation to some degree (though whether they can do much about it is hard to judge without more context)
@@michaelharrison2405 It's simplistic because a lot of laity bully clergy especially in little country parishes where they are very small minded and many dioceses throw their clergy under a bus so to speak.
It depends on what you call the church. Is it the building or the people? It depends if through this Vicar whether the church is growing. I refer to the Wesley Brothers. They were too lively. They were chucked out of the church and went onto the streets and revival happened. But not everybody will be happy to see revival.
John and Charles Wesley were here in my town as young pastors. They wanted to preach to the Indians and John fell in love, refusing in a snit to give Holy Communion to his crush, who rejected him. Their passionate, emotional personalities needed refining. They went home and prayed a lot. By the way, they never left the Church of England...they were considering it but Charles absolutely wouldn't. I believe they saw the dangers of wild untethered emotions and cherry picked Bible verses.....
@@rcjdeanna5282How interesting! Thank you! 🕊️🌹
I,m looking at Christian Banking with “KINGDOM BANK” think it could be a game changer
Is the focus on Jesus Christ or on the vicar?
I think this one is a little one sided. I have significant distrust in the recruitment process of the CofE these days. I know career priests who say they "do God well" but personally don't hold convictions of faith. This blew my mind when I heard this.
I was troubled by your comments on this issue. I see this an issue between a priest and his congregation. We can speculate. It is not uncommon that there is a bad fit with an employee even after a rigorous process. To quote Bishop George Arnold, 'Where was the man in purple.' He had the responsibility to ensure a good fit. If one is not possible, he is responsible to ensure both parties are well aware of potential problems and works with them overcome them. To come to a point where what there is an open revolt, the bishop failed. The archdeacon should not have been at the meeting, it should have been the bishop. He should have known the of the situation. If he did not he is a poor shepherd. I also can see all these problems are much more likely to occur when the Diocese of Truro brings in their new ministry model.
The archdeacon should have been there for sure, as for the bishop.........(no comment! 😂)
@@monoingles The bishop license the clergy, the bishop confirms all placements, the bishops remove all clergy from their posts and the bishop has the authority to defrock a priest. He as the chief shepherd of the flock, to see they are hearing and being taught in the ways of the Lord. This is the bishops responsibility. He can delegate, but he cannot delegate his responsibility. When a situation occurs like it did in this parish, he must accept his responsibility, be there get his hands dirty. Don't send someone who has no authority to take action, that was required when you knew that you were putting an anglo-catholic in a low church parish. By not accepting responsibility earlier a mess has been created and both sides look bad and he comes out smelling like a rose.
Sounds like a witch-hunt. Always unpleasant. Hope things work out.
I wonder about the vicar being called Father.
why? Anglican vicars are priests, they can therefore correctly be called 'Father'. if you want 'ministers' then the Baptists, or Methodists, or Calvinists or Pentecostalists are your people.
@@marcokite Ithink she was talking about Dan and Brett
Steeple Ashton, hmm, if I am not mistaken, is one of those pretty, twee little Vicar of Dibley places where time has been in reverse so long it doesn't know how to get into forward gear. The diocese should never put a vicar, rector or whatever whose defence of propriety is that the 'holy spirit' said such and such in a place like that. Otherwise we will hear news broadcasts of the Wiltshire vicar who died when the weathervane snapped off the top of the church spire and impaled him to the ground! But when there are parishioners hoping that 'the holy spirit gets the message', the headlines are likely to read, 'Many feared dead as beautiful village church collapses onto congregation'
There is no high and low church. There is the book of common prayer, and other religions
The vicar does what the flock wants such as woke and PC or alternate high church, failing this he is on his bike.
There is only one true Church, the body of christ and he is the head. Not any denomination.
Leave the nonsense and join the Ordinariate.
Supposing some of the people who have come against the vicar have prayed and God has told them he should go.
Its not only church of England vicars who hear from God
@Dominion Philosophy it can be about what vicars want too
I have given up with Church of England as well
This is an interesting story but in my humble opinion a Priest cannot just discern themselves into being a dictator. I think that a Priest has a responsibility to act in the best interests of the Church. I don't think that a Priest can just discern themselves to be alone in the Church with the Holy Spirit. You need some people as well!
What would you call this? Priexit? Eccsit?
Rev Dan, I'm sorry to say you're commenting here without knowing enough of what's caused the situation, (as you admit). Naturally, you're aghast at the possibility there's been "bullying". But you're not considering the possiblity that the clergyman's claim to have the endorsment of the Holy Spirit (while
...(while none of his congregation does) might also be "bullying"... We need to know more exactly what's gone on.
Yes you are right it is hard to know what is fully going on but it is bad enough to get into the national newspapers! Very sad for all involved tbh
They say you can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time!
There was a time when I attended a church with a 'difficult' vicar, who made decisions without preparing the congregation or letting them know his reasoning, so changes upset people rather than bringing them alongside.
Exactly.
i love this infighting!
Heaven forbid that an 18th century organ and listed building would not be maintained under his leadership! Sell up your cold monuments to a bygone age to the English heritage, rediscover the Gospel and get evangelising Church!
it isn't either/or. Christians need to be practical about Church buildings, they always have been especially since the 4th century when the persecutions ended. Who are you to say the priest or people involved need to re-discover the Gospel?
@marcokite The CofE would care a lot less about organs, climate change, and fitting in with wokeness if they understood the Great Commission and the Good News of Jesus Christ! I can only assume the majority haven't understood it and hence busy themselves with this Vicar of Dibley nonsense! Get busy living for Christ CofE or pack up your priceless artifacts and accept that you are spiritually dead!