I loved dtm because they used to run hot versions of affordable cars. DTM should be running C classes, audi A4s, 3 series and alfa romeo gullias. Not lambos and 911s
@@adrianbalboa5353 depends how they set the rules up, I'd hope for more gt4 like cars with more power. Also mandating 4 door's could keep the manufactures which aren't "bread and butter" out
As a German, I'm sad to see what they've done with the DTM. It used to be so cool and really exciting. Now it's just another boring GT3 championship...
Same, DTM cars where just beautifull to look at. Amazing looking, now the closest we have is the super gt, whats funny because they raced together in 2020. But i dont even think i can watch thouse in germany, i watch everything thats streamed on youtube plus f1 obviosly but i doubt they stream. But yeah DTM was special.
@Jasongilliar SuperGT is definitely one of the most fun motorsports series out there. It's a good mix of competitiveness, action, seriousness, and some chaos. Unfortunately, they do only show the Japanese recording one week after the race. There is a subscription-based live stream in English though.
Well, GT3 provides one of the most exciting races around the world, you name the series, so in terms of money, attracting teams, and having a competitive championship, is no surprise why the DTM choose the class, it was that or killing DTM for good, but the cost was loosing the uniqueness of what was DTM.
I went to several DTM races at Zandvoort in the 2000s. Back then it was like the whole of Germany was at the Dutch coast. The series was very popular. Caravans, motorhomes and German cars everywere. The stands were packed. It was a sight to behold. I went with my nephew and brother in the summer of 2023. We had grandstand seats and it wasn't even fully packed. Germany no longer cares. Such a shame.
Germany fell pretty much out love with motorsports after the Schumi era. Even the Vettel era couldn't save it. Due to this, whole German motorsports struggles. The lack of manufacturer's interest in DTM doesn't help either.
At least with F1, popularity took a big hit when the channel RTL gave away the broadcasting rights to Sky and the Schuhmacher Skiing incident didn’t help. Big part of every Sport in Germany is Storytelling and RTL or RAN are exceptional at it.
@@beverly_hills_cop5142 Also, DTM used to be shown in German national TV ARD. While Pro7 and its online platform RAN are big, nothing beats the viewership of national public broadcast in Germany.
I can sympathise with this, I went to a flyaway race at Brands Hatch in 2006 and the crowd was sold out even in England. I also went to the dtm race in Zandvoort in 2023… I was kinda disappointed by how much less attention the series gets. DTM had much more attention in the UK at the time than our own touring car series… the worlds going backwards.
The insane aero on pre-2021 DTM cars is what I loved about them, very unique and the cars looked amazing. Sad that it's now just a standard GT3 series especially when GT Masters already exists in Germany.
The problem is, now it's just another gt3 series. And not even the only gt3 series in Germany. I get why it had to change, but...plus it's not broadcast on UA-cam in the states any more.
This is honestly the biggest source of decline for racing series in general. In addition to cars becoming a status symbol tool, where brand and model heirarchy are worth more socially than a lot of the features. People don't see racing anymore on TV and it is not easy to access online. The marketing sucks. F1 brought back its popularity with netflix series and films, to make it relevant to the modern day.
Yeah, racing needs to be freely accessible to draw in crowds, they're gaining nothing with their exclusivity. I mean even NASCAR is available on UA-cam, and F1 is available on ESPN.
@@iPuls3the attendances of people watching DTM in 2000s is 10 times more than in 2024 (50.000 on average compared to just 4800 to 5000 in 2024 DTM SEASON alone).
i went to the nürburgring back in 1993 as a little critter with my dad. and this sound from that era will stick forever with me like the 2000 formula 1 gp on the nürburgring. in retro perspective, thanks to my dad, i was able to hear and see the pinnacle of these motorsport classes
The series from the 1990s onwards were trying to get a Japanese manufacturer into the series Toyota was the one mentioned several times over the years as Toyota has a European base for the Motorsport operation in Germany
If Toyota enters the DTM for years, it could've took over the Aston Martin spot since 2020 with the Supra, same as they replaced the iconic LC500 in Super GT's GT500 class. Sadly, the costs have ruined the Class 1 which made DTM replaced them with GT3 cars.
Toyota Europe is based in Cologne since the 90s. Every wrc rallye drove with corollas in the mid 90s. I don't see the aspect of using toyotas at the DTM. alfa Romeo was already unnecessary enough
The "temporary" adoption of GT3 rules became permanent, and there's no other choice in the short term. In my view, DTM is still around because of the brand, which is still strong enough to attract top drivers.
It's the all-pro, sprint format that differentiates DTM from any other GT series, and IMO makes it still worth watching. Sure there are some pay drivers, but basically the whole grid is gold or platinum, and a sprint format with no driver changes makes it different from say, GT World Challenge. As cool as the class 1 cars were, the racing is also better with the GT3 cars I think.
One of the biggest reasons for DTM dropping Class One regulation is "Manufacturer Loyalty". This is what makes Super GT still able to use that regulation in a stable manner with Toyota, Honda, & Nissan are all coming in to fund the series.
Not to mention, Super GT as a series is more of a pseudo-endurance series with multiple drivers doing stints for one car and a two class system with GT500 & GT300. So they have full on support from big manufacturers in GT500, while they have support from smaller manufacturers and tuning shops or dealerships that form the teams in GT300. You wouldn't find that in DTM.
Well there were privateer teams in DTM for a really long time, that didn't really work though since they had to use outdated cars and it was really expensive.
@@Maenfy There also were the WRT Audis in 2019 which had the same machinery as the manufacturer teams (Abt, Rosberg and Phoenix), but didn't get benefits like sharing set up data (which based on something I read earlier this year, at least Abt weren't the biggest fan of due to feeling as if they gave away their advantage)
Of course, Super GT has a much more adequate approach, particularly in the relations between manufacturers and teams. But thank the stupid Western "football" mentality of fans first and foremost. The consumer decides what product to consume, not the manufacturer.
As someone who attended the DTM for several years now, i can say, i don't care what cars they drive. For me it's the racing, which is, compared to other series, really good and offers the "door to door racing" the fans wanted to see (which in class1 was questionable, because of all the aero). The DTM was always a fan series. In no other series were you able to get this close to the cars, drivers or even mechanics. I even watched a race from inside the pits in the garage of Rene Rast (And no i didn't pay extra for this, i was just at the right place, to the right time). And also if you attend a full raceweekend, you have the whole 3 days of racing with multiple series from TCR, Porsche Cup, DTM classics and others.
@@ozanbaskan5524absolutely. REPCO V8 SUPERCARS CHAMPIONSHIP in 2024 was a total disappointment. 2024 Bathurst 1000 is denoted as "THE MOST BORING RACE OF ALL TIME".
3:22 This kind of aero profile could be seen in Stock Car Brasil between 2010-2019. In that time the cars here looked closer to a DTM car, but we used a Chevrolet(that had nothing in common with the street model and V8 engines). But in 2020 the series took the "closer to the street model" route
Dont remind me 😭😂 Loved stock car brasil from 2017-2019 but ever since the new cars in 2020 it just doesnt do it for me anymore. In that sense very similar to how my interest in dtm has developed :D
Agree that DTM is not what it used to be, but it still offers some fantastic racing in its current form. It is also popular and the races get good crowds, with top drivers for e.g., Rene Rast, Mirko Bortolotti, Maro Engel competing. I think DTM has made the best of difficult conditions, and adapted to produce some of the most exciting racing we have today.
One correction - Germany HAD a TCR championship and in the first few year it had grid sizes up to 40+ cars, but dwindling grids and the fact that the then ADAC GT Masters (which was then merged with DTM once both were under the same umbrella) was far more popular, the series was killed off. A potential re-boot was planned, but scrapped. While the GT3 class is still thriving, that's not the case in TCR - the cars are based on C-segment family cars which is now facing extinction as car manufacturers are heading towards either EV's or SUV's (some of the best selling vehicles in Europe are SUV's), which also hampers the FIA's rallying pyramid as the cars used in the World Rally Championship are for the most part based on the smaller B-segment (subcompact class) which are also phased out (the Ford Fiesta ended production in 2022, which forced long time partner M-Sport to use the Puma crossover as the base for their next top tier machine, while the Fiesta family of rally cars below the top range look outdated).
DTM didn't die, it just changed. I agree that the championship was really something to behold and it was very interesting to watch, but the changes has also been positive imo. I see that a lot of people don't like it because "it's just another GT3 championship", and I see your point. But GT3 is also one of the most interesting classes to watch imo, because it's so close and you get so many good battles. Also, there's so many manufacturers in it, so it's a good variety of cars that has different strengths and weaknesses and the very most of them will be able to perform high up through an entire season. WIth that said tho, I would love to see a comback of the old type cars if it also meant that more manufacturers joined. But with so many different championships and different classes to take part in, I see why GT3 is so popular and that it has the success it has. And to be honest, the championship still holds its status and attracts the top performing drivers, so I still find it very interesting to watch.
Easy way to bring DTM back: Budget cap, used German sedans, stock engine can be modified but cannot swap to different engine, each team uses the same wind tunnel, general body shape must stay the same, mostly German tracks but cannot got anywhere in Europe, then all the usual small print regulatory things.
Yes it's "only another GT3 series" by now but: who should pay for anything else? It's already super difficult for the teams to find the budgets for a season now Manufacturers don't want to put that much money in anymore as they did in the past even if Manufacturers would, you still had the same issue as the DTM basically had all their live: The fear of sudden death when some drop out and most importantly: The racing is really good and tight! For me the best GT3 Racing at the moment
GT3/GT4 cars are amazing there realtivaly cheap there very quick they dont only look like there road counterpart but are actully base on them there also easy on the budget for a million dollars you can run a gt3 car for almost 3 season you cant do that shit with custom build prototype and i rather see bmw ferrari lambo mclaren aston lexus toyota mercedez honda porsche and audi ducking it out on track racing with cars that still share an engine and chassis with the road going car that is on sale.
@@patthonsirilim5739 I am with you and Andreas on this. I only started watching DTM after it changed to GT3 and honestly? The racing is great! Maybe better than most other racing series! The qualifications are usually very close and they fight. Yes, sure I don't know what McLaren did this year with Dörr Motorsport, they consistently were in the rear during races, but even then, they did some great times! Also: Better to have good racing in "another GT3 championship" than no DTM at all and another dead motorsport in Germany. Happy to have them still. Also the 'feeder series' that accompany DTM have proven to be cool! LMP2, DTM classic, GT4, M2 Cup, NXT GEN all were awsome! (Yes, ESPECIALLY NXT GEN!)
I'll start by saying I agree with everything you said, but the problem seems to be that DTM doesn't have a unique identity if they just run the same GT3 cars as IMSA for example.
@@Ixxlostinabox It is not just "another GT3 series" imo, it is a unique format of single driver 55 min sprints, all other major GT3 series the car is shared between drivers with FIA rankings restricting lineups or endurance races, DTM makes it way more of a driver series
The GT3 era was meant to bring stability yet the entry lists have still been really volatile each season. Starting with 19, 24, 27, and then a big drop to only 20 cars showing up in 2024 after Audi quits GT3 for F1 and honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Dörr Motorsports is gonna quit soon because of McLaren giving them no help whatsoever like what happened to Pfaff Racing in IMSA.
The most hilarious thing about GT3 era DTM is that it is only technically D and M, and absolutely not T. Also, i used to watch it in my childhood, along with some Clio and Carrera cup racing, and i like tin tops more than open wheels since than. So it is really sad that DTM flopped, the example of Japan shows that it was purely because of bad management.
Exactly. DTM was, and should be, about fast family cars. Not useless supercars. When using rules and cars from another championship, it should probably be fossile WTCR or electric ETCR.
The most hilarious thing is when people get confused in terminology and don`t understand that "touring" is much closer to "grand touring" in its idea than to silhouette prototypes. Although I myself prefer the silhouette prototypes, as a kind of highest ("grandest", "greatest") level in the development of the idea.
DTM stopped being a touring car seris when they dropped Group A regs and went to silhouette racing in the early 90's (the current name is just DTM no acronym anymore either)
I lost all interest since it became a GT3 series, it is too generic for me personally to care about. I already watch WEC and IMSA and see enough GT3 cars as is
The Class1/GT500 and LMH/LMDH cars are currently massively increase popularity and fans. The GT3 cars are everywhere like average road cars but I love it because it's more of a racing diversity.
Your missing out, a lot of the same factory drivers from WEC and IMSA but they each have their own car so you get to see them individually shine and who is the best across the season. So what if their using GT3 cars? The racing is still top notch, it's basically a single seater series with factory drivers in GT cars.
Alfa Romeo 159, Opel Astra, Audi Abt, Mercedes clk.. i remember since childhood and I'll never forget them and their paint work Costs killing creativity is a recurring theme these days
I visited several races at the Norisring... damn those cars were loud.... even with hundreds of meters away, you felt the earth. The Start was unbelievable.. i miss the old DTM.. the prototype class 1 cars were beautiful
Good video. For me (as a non-car guy) it isn’t a problem that they now use GT3s - the racing is still exciting after all - but I can understand that a lot of the traditional fanbase feels disillusioned. Heck, you see that in any DTM comments section nowadays. What still makes the series unique to me is the fact that, contrary to the other GT series in Europe, they still only have one driver per car, making viewers much more inclined to root for personalities and look out for rivalries
The costs have ruined the DTM popularity sadly which is why they dumped the Class 1 and switched to GT3 cars. In Brazil, a motorsport series called 'Stock Car Pro Series'. They also use silhouette cars too but their body platform seems very identical to average street cars. I also wish DTM, Super GT and Stock Car can merge to create a worldwide racing similar to GT World and F1 including racing in 24h of Nurburgring. Super GT has 2 class categories like FIA WEC does but they possess hypercars(LMH) as rebranded LMP1.
@@frankj0484 No need for fantasies. Stock Car is much more primitive and closer to NASCAR than to the DTM Class 1 silhouette prototype. As the experience of Germany and Japan has shown, mentality is very important. In Japan, everything was done adequately in this case and they (and we) got an excellent result. In the west, they chased a stupid show to please not too smart fans who are used to watching football. The result is predictable.
Europe and Japan value different things unfortunately. While Europe is pushing for everybody to be driving electric bubble cars, or not driving at all, and preaching to the rest of the world about how much emissions it's making, Japan is...not.
Also, DTM was going to go to an electric series at one time. And let's not forget the 5 years of NASCAR announcing there would be an American DTM series.
It would be awesome if Ford, Chrysler and GM join the Class 1 programs. Luckily, Super GT is still using this kind of race cars, so maybe they're trying to bring the Class 1 cars into worldwide racing series like GT3 cars do.
@@frankj0484 fun fact, GM even had DTM cars thanks to Opel (which they no longer own, but used to when they were in DTM). My personal favourite is the 2001 Astra V8 Coupé
I actually didn't mind them switching to GT3 cars, but after the shit show that was the 2021 finale I just couldn't bring myself to continue following the series. :(
I saw it live on track and it was a shame. Liam Lawson could be a F1 Driver and DTM champion today. Good to see that the number of cars from one brand has reduced since then making another "2021" more unlikely. Give the series a try in 2025, 2024 was great sport!
@@Th3B0ss872021 also showed how poor a quality the drivers in DTM are. Go look at Gotz and Sheldon’s racing record, it’s filled with mediocrity outside of DTM
Yeah, I do miss the old times of DTM. But the gt3 class was necessary for the series' survival. I think the spirit of DTM still remains, if you go to a race you get the most out of any big series in the world and the racing is still peak imo
I was not interested in the GT3 DTM at all. I happened to be at the DTM at the ring this year and the race was MEGA. I watched the rest of the season and as a former hater I have to say it's one of the best racing series we have today. Watch it and you'll quickly realise that the DTM is anything but boring or dead.
As far as I know, Mercedes left DTM at the end of the 2018 season, because they announced their entry for the Formula E which needed alot of investment. As DTM was also very expensive they decided to pull out of the DTM to focus on their development in the Formula E
A few things that I liked about silhouette DTM (besides the cars): The live team radio (which did survive for the first 2 GT3 years, sadly the ADAC takeover took that from us), ranging from memorable (infamous "Timo, schieb ihn raus" or the Timo Glock rant against Mercedes in 2018) to interesting things like drivers being directed to their starting boxes The later DRS rules (it took some time getting there). Not only did you have to be within a second of the car ahead at the line, you also had a limited number of laps during which you could deploy DRS (number depending on track), adding an additional bit of strategy (iirc there also were no official DRS zones but 3 uses per DRS lap, but those effectively resulted in de facto DRS zones, though that might've been changed at some point). I'm fully aware that DRS itself isn't the most popular thing, just think this implementation is a nice way of handling it.
I come from Germany and grew up with the DTM, it shaped my childhood. I have been going to every DTM race at the Lausitzring since 2009. I loved the cars and designs, drivers like Ekström, Scheider, Di Resta, Paffett and many more were heroes to me. The races were thrilling and the fact that it was almost exclusively held in Germany and neighbouring countries made everything seem very down-to-earth. I have the feeling that they wanted too much at some point. Things have gone downhill since Mercedes left in 2018. Aston Martin's entry came far too early and too hastily, so they got out again straight away. As an Audi fan, I was pleased with the successful years, but there was no longer any real competition - unthinkable before 2019. That's probably why Audi pulled out. The move to continue with GT3 cars was logical and I thought it was okay. The races are still worth watching and the driver line-up is now more diverse. But now that Audi has withdrawn there too and only Rast, Wittmann and Auer remain from the former heroes, the series has lost a lot of its magic. I still love the DTM and always will. I hope better times will come soon.
@@Deutschmaschine0 And well, Project Blueprint and arguably the Class 3A Regulations themselves had so little to do with the road cars they've been silhouettes since 93'
Our racing fans are rather weird in a nice way. We all have great memories from the racing which impressed us when we were younger and want to experience it again. In Formula 1, older fans want the naturally aspirated cars back. In MotoGp they want 2 stroke bikes and ban rider aides. I've been watching DTM since the inception of the series and thoroughly enjoyed all the races but the racing in it's current GT3 format is of the most exciting I've seen. The live coverage from every conceivable angle including in-car action is better than ever. We also see an international line-up of top drivers. The driver commitment and aggression is spectacular! The cars are so closely balanced/matched in performance which leaves it all to the driver to drive the wheels off it and pit crew to win races. I'm an old bat who still races the cars I loved of yester year but I can also appreciate and enjoy fantastic current DTM racing. All I need on DTM race days is a vpn and beer.
Being a petrolhead kid back in the 90`s i sometimes loved DTM more than F1!!!😃☝The competition, the innovation, the drivers simply amazing.🌟The cars looked like a normal series car on extra unusual steroids screaming for victory.Nowadays UFOs are racing with drivers comment always the same cassette. Unfortunately DTM lost its earth like touch and the audience doesn`t care anymore!! 🤗😕
The Class 1 Touring Car spec they had that was shared with the SuperGT GT500 cars was such a cool idea. It's a shame they only ever did one race with that mixed grid, and it wasn't even a points race. The first racing sim that gets all 6 of 2019-spec cars along with their respective complete schedules outside of modding will have my money.
I agree with others that's its just another GT3 championship when they switched specs. Now that WEC is getting better and better every year. I get my Hypercar and GT3 racing in one hit.
I'm British, We pretty much invented the Super Touring era and the 90's were great because we had 10 manufacturers battling door to door, However we also loved the DTM because the cars looked great and were monsters, The Opel Calibra, Alfa 155 and Mercedes A class. Then the money side of things went crazy in both the BTCC and DTM and that's what killed them.
I am now 30 years old and my father brought my to DTM when I was 7 years old. It was such a great experience back then, the paddock was not expensive and thous the drivers where approachable. Even those "big names", where nowadays there are none. Back then, the support series where the F3 and Formula BMW, both had really good drivers for the future in them. It is sad to see how DTM lost its identity. There is nothing special to it.
I remember when SPEED TV used to air DTM races in the US. They were always re airs and they would run them on like a Tuesday afternoon or something but it always intrigued me and I wished it was more accessible.
I learned about DTM in 2020 and enjoyed the race cars, and drivers. Unfortunately I discovered the series to late and the unique Class 1 cars got replaced with GT3. At least Super GT still runs the Class 1 cars but it's a shame you can't see them elsewhere. Maybe one day Class 1 can become big like GT3 cause those cars are cool.
Without GT3, the DTM would likely be dead. For me, the DTM isn’t just about the cars; it’s the close, wheel to wheel racing. The robust and simple GT3 cars deliver this intensity better than their predecessors. The added brand variety also makes the series more entertaining. Losing Class 1 cars is sad, but it’s a high level complaint considering how much GT3 has revitalized the DTM. Plus, it’s the only high level GT3 sprint series with one driverper car, making it unique.
Everyone saying that its just another GT3 championship...yes, GT3 is literally the most exciting racing format in the world. Look at all the endurance races, the Rennen24, the fanatec GT3 series etc etc. They are way more exciting than what the original DTM format used to be
Finally some sense. Only somebody that doesn't watch DTM can say it's dead. Extremely close racing and championships and a huge variety of cars. I've yet to see a boring GT3 race series.
From 2009 to 2014 i went to Hockenheim every year for the DTM, it was a great series with Mercedes and Audi the main players. The new rules killed it off and i haven't bothered watching it since.
I was effected so much by these kind of videos and never gave a chance to the new DTM for a long time but when I did, it became my favorite GT3 series with the format and drivers. I know the previous DTM was something else but not gonna lie it was boring when there were only Audi and BMW in its later years.
It may be seen as just another GT3 series, but it's a sprint series rather than an endurance one. It also carries more Super Licence points than any other GT3 series.
The BTCC in the UK is still showing how today, a series can use unique cars not seen in any other championship whilst still being successful and financially viable, and with manufacturers interest. But I think its now too late for the DTM to go back to being a true touring car championship, as moving to TCR/BTCC style cars would lose lots of the drivers and manufacturer interest, so any route other than GT3 seems impossible
I think the BTCC has it's own issues at the moment, what with hybrid power coming in a couple of years ago and now being dropped for 2025, and a pretty sharp drop in grid size from 27 cars in 2023 to just 20 in '24. Still produces great racing though.
@dominicbarden4436 2024 was a great season, and grids are expected to go back up to 22/24 cars for 2025. Bear in mind, team hard made up 6 entries in 2023 and they were pretty useless so their loss wasn't that much of an issue lol
@@sadikurrahman4833 Ok? Thats completely unrelated to what I said and I get the feeling that you're just hating because the BTCC isnt like 'the old days'
As someone who has been to a lot of the races this year, I can say it's still a well supported series. Sure, it isn't getting the same numbers as it was in the 90s, but nor is pretty much any racing series besides F1. DTM was on free-to-air TV all this year (Pro-7) and the Hockenheim finale in October packed the seating allocation for both Saturday and Sunday. It's easy to cry that the cars aren't unique anymore - same can be said throughout motorsport and it's just the times we live in - but DTM is competitive and there is good on-track action at every race. As a motorsport fan of over 30 years, the racing itself is what I go to see, not the aesthetics of the cars.
The hypercar's maximum lift:drag ratio might have worked for DTM. Start with silhouette, done change front surface more than x% and add wing and winglets and splitters up to a drag/lift ratio. Or, nominal drag and nominal down force. A common high level spec chassis with variable wheelbase (to match road car) would help with costs. Suppliers like Bosch could offer specific DTM spec sealed systems.
What I don't understand is how Japanese manufacturers can make Class 1 work in SuperGT while German manufacturers totally gave up. Some of them are the biggest automobile groups of the world (hello VW ??) and it's still too expensive ? That said, even with GT3 machinery I would say the series hasn't entirely lost its soul, the format and the rules are still unique and it's very entertaining, thanks to the drivers.
Japanese manufacturers mainly race in Japan. Only Toyota is really going international (WEC & WRC), Honda and Nissan are barely doing anything outside of Super GT.
@@Maenfy Well, Honda are in F1, Indycar and IMSA, although it's the American division of the brand, so I don't know how independent they are from the main branch.
Asian market is huge There's just more motorsport fans in that region Also i think F1 has got lot of the fans in europe Most people i know only follow F1 and they don't care about any other european racing series
@@ZeugmaP HRC is now a global company, HPD isn't a thing anymore, Honda is trying to find cheaper alternatives, now that they own Mitsubishi they're likely to be in the WRC in 2027.
My perspective as a new DTM fan. I understand why a lot of earlier fans are disillusioned with the current state of things, such a huge change will always ruin it for those who loved the old stuff, just like F1 has been ruined for many including me with the V6 era back in the day. However I love GT3 cars and the DTM is not "just another" GT3 series but possibly the best one, up there with GT World Challenge for sure and I'll be watching in 2025.
DTM has full factory driver lineups, many of which also compete in other top sportscar series like WEC and IMSA in prototypes. GT Masters is a Pro-Am series with gentlemen drivers. They are not the same.
Those class 1's looked badass 👀 I think the competitiveness of the field still separates DTM from other GT3 series but otherwise it has lost that uniqueness.
I still watch it and I still love it. To be honest: I don't gett why people just argue abou the cars. Sure the class one cars looked amazing but the Aero brought some issues and things like DRS had to be installed even to make overtaking possible. The class one era had some strange regulations regarding this and it wasn't always fun to watch. Also the manufacturer support with just 3 brands lead to situation were from the middle of a season all the other Teammates of one brand drove for their leader in the championship. I don't want to see those things. In the end all I want from a racing series is close and tense battles and a championship that is open until the last racing weekend. And man here DTM delivers every single year since GT3 era.
I like how the cars resemble road cars now (and arguably are far more similar to them as well) now rather than entirely bland tube-framed chassis with Audi/Mercedes/BMW plastered on a fiberglass body over it
Now the racing series that still running this group 1 regulation is only Super GT specifically on GT500 class, and filled with a company that's selling a common car that you can see on the road (toyota, honda, nissan). And in fact, they still running the championship until now. That's crazy how this class costing but they still running the Super GT (GT500) championship
when the formula involves manufacturers it really gets complicated especially if the said manufacturers can call the shots on what they want. I think so far the closest to what "DTM style" race cars (besides Super GT) is actually Stock Car Brasil. Basically silhouette race cars but with more control over the regulations. Heck even Toyota were making Corolla Cross into a race car which was pretty cool lol. DTM died because they tried too hard.
Guys, DTM is not dead. I watch their races for free on UA-cam. The races are ridiculously exciting. Don't just stick to F1 because you're missing a lot. DTM deserves way more love than it gets. The battles there are just sick
I like the new DTM. Thank you for the good video first! The years 2000-2020 had unique cars and innovation but for which "price"? Starting with only three brands, after losing Opel even reduced to long boring years of only Audi vs. Mercedes. Comeback of BMW saved a bit but not for long. Ultra advanced aero was so complex that even light contact between cars destroyed the plastic flaps and races. So there were lots of penalties and "contact sport driving" was no more possible. Not to forget about clean washed driver statements and team orders directed by the "brands". 2021 gave a real strong start. You can only blame the team order finale which cost Liam Lawson the deserved title. Now we are racing "casual" luxus cars other than the prototypes in shape of a everyday car. But it is much closer to the 80s now: private teams, relaxed open paddocks, real good races, open championship til last race, contact fighting cars which are more resistant in fights. Racing is much more in the focus now. During 2000-2020 it was often more a sales event for the big brands. I am still looking forward to go to Norisring every year.
i got tickets to see it live at hockenheim in the last season they had "prototypes"(2020), mercedes was gone already and aston martin had a car that was bad, but it was a sight to behold altogether still. loud fast and uncanny, as they looked like streetcars and wentt 300kph. i understand why they went gt3 as a temporary soluion as the manufacturers didnt want to spent money on a "useless" engine, butr bmw using it for the gtp/lmh is a banger sign, aswell as talks about merging with supergt OR going electric and being the first electric GT series. Well see, i hope they know what to do with the name edit: didnt know about the thing making mercedes leave being turbos- while turbos are the future of combustion engines. Classic German decision, not going for the future and sticking with outdated tech.
I'll never understand the "just another GT3 series". Which other GT3 series does sprint races with professional drivers and many of the top privateer teams again? Because I'd certainly watch it ...
The recent rise in cost in all racing series need to be studied. Basically every single racing series that wasn't using common regs was forced to change because of cost. How hard is it to put a cap on that and how the hell is so much money lost in r & d
DTM was fantastic in 2012-13, after that I gradually lost interest due to the constant team orders and cars breaking apart due to slight contact. I never really got into the GT3 DTM. GT3 cars changed so much in the last 10 years, they're very sophisticated race cars now. And BTW German TCR hasn't run since 2022.
I lament the loss of DTM. There is absolutely room for it however, cost is becoming the primary driver for racing as technology has grown so far beyond what we could imagine. I wished for a future with DTM, Super GT and Ford and Chevy pushing Australian Supercars into a world touring car championship akin to the 80s'-90's series mixed with more modern F1.
I think you could get around that with a real tourenwagen ruleset, thats close to the original car. So only factory chassis and limited difference in bodypanel and aero. Then threw in a cage, fire supression system and the other fia stuff. Then get a small and efficient ruleset for BoP so everybody can use the engine configuration they like. There are many more details to consider, but overall this idea could have helpes the series to not drift so far away.
Well, the current GT3 rules are closer to the original DTM's technical intent than everything else that came after 1994. True DTM up until today would consist of GT4 versions of M4, S5, C63 AMG, maybe add a Giulia QV. No idea why that would be so hard to do.
I still don't understand how the Super GT partnership didn't work out. The car formula was very similar to DTM or yore, at least aestetically, and Super GT in Japan is a fantastic product in and of itself. Was it the cost of travelling? Seems to me like DTM could've used the same multi-class formula as Super GT and they could've had several cross over races, like WEC does with Le Mans and a couple others. They could've even pegged the class to perform alongisde LMP2 which seems to be about the performance level of Super GT cars anyway. I assume the business really got in the way of the logic but that's what happens when rich people who don't actually give a shit about racing are in charge of the show.
Nicely done, a little generic but you picked a good subject as clearly others like me are wondering what happened to DTM. IMO, would’ve been nice to get some more info and detail photos of what exactly made the DTM cars so expensive - the really wild aero and crazy interiors that had drivers seated way back and in middle of car
Thank you so much for you making this video about of my favourite touring car racing series all time. Also my favourite cars in DTM it was the Mercedes 190E Evolution 2 and BMW E30 M3. and my favourite races in DTM was the 1992 season between these two German rivals legends the Mercedes vs BMW both of them racing against each other at the race track and suddenly Mercedes win the Championship season in 1992 and that's my favourite manufacturer rivals in motorsports history.
I think you explained very well why DTM is basically a shell of it's former self: it was too expensive for a national championship. Funny thing is that Germany already had a full-on GT3 championship by the time DTM switched over to GT3: The ADAC GT Masters. I found it a baffling choice that DTM also went to GT3 cars, because they now run 2 national GT3 championships in Germany. They even frequently race together in the same weekend, which might be even wilder. And I'm not even taking the VLN into consideration here, where the top class also run GT3 cars. In Germany a team can literally enter 3 championships with the same car.
Super GT has two classes, GT500, which has the class of cars DTM was supposed to have, and GT300, a modified GT3 spec that allows for absolutely hilarious scenes like a Prius blowing past a Lambo. Easily the greatest racing on the planet.
DTM is a sole class racing(formerly the Class 1 and now the GT3) while Super GT has 2 class categories. In GT500 class, it's basically the pre-2021 DTM cars they're still possessing, since 2014 to today, the cars require to have 2 liters turbocharged straight 4 engines with 650hp and the mass is the same as Le Mans Hypercars(LMH/LMDH) which is 1030kg while in GT300 class, it's a modified FIA GT3 cars which also allows mother chassis like Prius, Supra, BRZ, etc to compete with the matching homologations. Both Super GT and FIA WEC(endurance Le Mans series) are the best and most interesting racing series in the world.
@@EagleFntm Super GT uses two-class system with GT500 & GT300. GT500 is pretty much the same as Class One DTM but they don't use DRS system and there's a tyre war between Bridgestone, Dunlop, & Yokohama (they also have it in GT300). In GT300, you will find your regular FIA-GT3 cars, but there are also two different types of cars racing against it. First is GTA-GT300 which is basically what GT500 cars used to be back in the 90s & early 00s (road car based race cars) and the second one is Mother Chassis cars which is a pure silhouette formula with a Dome chassis & Nissan derived V8.
@@frankj0484 The retired Prius is a GTA-GT300 car. A GTA-GT300 still keeps some parts from the road car (mainly cabin) and can use any engine they want as long as it came from the same brand as the original car, hence why it used the RV8K & 2UR-GSE across its life. This is your Prius, GR Supra, GR86, BRZ, LC500h, & Z/400Z. A Mother Chassis will all have the same Dome chassis & the same Nissan derived V8 no matter the silhouette body. This is your Evora, MC86, & Mark X.
I tried to adapt to the Series out of love but I gave up after 2022 and I caught one race last season and it was terrible, I didn't even finish the race...R.I.P. DTM
I used to watch them because of the Class 1 cars until 2021 because the costs have made Audi left the Class 1 program, leaving BMW being the only brand which caused DTM to dump them and switched to GT3 cars but luckily Super GT is still possessing them as GT500 class. These cars are quicker than Le Mans hypercars when it comes to cornering speed but they have the same mass as them which is 1030kg but slower when it comes top speed. Nowadays in WEC, the hypercars and in Super GT, the GT500(Class 1) are currently racing together with GT3 cars. These race cars deserved to race everywhere like GT3 and F1 cars do but in the future, maybe they should go hybrid mode like F1 cars and Le Mans hypercars do instead of EV like Formula E.
I felt another factor of decline, in the final years of ITR's ownership, was a lot of the races were being held at empty Grade 1 circuits around Europe (e.g Imola, Algarve, Spa), which I imagine people near the locations had little interest in the series. I hope ADAC's push to have more of the races back in Germany helps get a fan base built back up. I also feel they could look to the current specs in BTCC or the Australian Supercars for inspiration.
Still wish DTM is more like how it used to be, but the car manufacturers probably won't want it since that means producing road cars that have a lot modifications to make them more competitive on the racetrack.
I loved dtm because they used to run hot versions of affordable cars.
DTM should be running C classes, audi A4s, 3 series and alfa romeo gullias.
Not lambos and 911s
The 3 series would be basicaly a BMW M4 gt3.
smart fortwo DTM version when?
@@adrianbalboa5353 depends how they set the rules up, I'd hope for more gt4 like cars with more power. Also mandating 4 door's could keep the manufactures which aren't "bread and butter" out
before lambo and 911, they're already a prototype race bespoke car with a fake skin that looks like affordable car
Or if they do want to run the lambos and 911s they should be different to the GT3 cars
As a German, I'm sad to see what they've done with the DTM. It used to be so cool and really exciting. Now it's just another boring GT3 championship...
It's one of the better GT3 based championships, but I agree that without the uniqueness it's a less interesting series.
Same, DTM cars where just beautifull to look at. Amazing looking, now the closest we have is the super gt, whats funny because they raced together in 2020. But i dont even think i can watch thouse in germany, i watch everything thats streamed on youtube plus f1 obviosly but i doubt they stream. But yeah DTM was special.
@Jasongilliar Have you ever seen TC2000?
@Jasongilliar SuperGT is definitely one of the most fun motorsports series out there. It's a good mix of competitiveness, action, seriousness, and some chaos. Unfortunately, they do only show the Japanese recording one week after the race. There is a subscription-based live stream in English though.
Well, GT3 provides one of the most exciting races around the world, you name the series, so in terms of money, attracting teams, and having a competitive championship, is no surprise why the DTM choose the class, it was that or killing DTM for good, but the cost was loosing the uniqueness of what was DTM.
I went to several DTM races at Zandvoort in the 2000s. Back then it was like the whole of Germany was at the Dutch coast. The series was very popular. Caravans, motorhomes and German cars everywere. The stands were packed. It was a sight to behold. I went with my nephew and brother in the summer of 2023. We had grandstand seats and it wasn't even fully packed. Germany no longer cares. Such a shame.
No fun allowed when fighting climate change
They dont even let F1 drive in the country anymore
Germany fell pretty much out love with motorsports after the Schumi era. Even the Vettel era couldn't save it. Due to this, whole German motorsports struggles. The lack of manufacturer's interest in DTM doesn't help either.
At least with F1, popularity took a big hit when the channel RTL gave away the broadcasting rights to Sky and the Schuhmacher Skiing incident didn’t help. Big part of every Sport in Germany is Storytelling and RTL or RAN are exceptional at it.
@@beverly_hills_cop5142 Also, DTM used to be shown in German national TV ARD. While Pro7 and its online platform RAN are big, nothing beats the viewership of national public broadcast in Germany.
I can sympathise with this, I went to a flyaway race at Brands Hatch in 2006 and the crowd was sold out even in England. I also went to the dtm race in Zandvoort in 2023… I was kinda disappointed by how much less attention the series gets. DTM had much more attention in the UK at the time than our own touring car series… the worlds going backwards.
The insane aero on pre-2021 DTM cars is what I loved about them, very unique and the cars looked amazing. Sad that it's now just a standard GT3 series especially when GT Masters already exists in Germany.
Also the VLN.
The problem is, now it's just another gt3 series. And not even the only gt3 series in Germany. I get why it had to change, but...plus it's not broadcast on UA-cam in the states any more.
... then try vpn - i (in germany) was able (without vpn) to watch every dtm race live in the english dtm live stream
@@Magic_Kamikaze Oh I know, I use a vpn. It's just annoying that I have to.
This is honestly the biggest source of decline for racing series in general.
In addition to cars becoming a status symbol tool, where brand and model heirarchy are worth more socially than a lot of the features.
People don't see racing anymore on TV and it is not easy to access online. The marketing sucks.
F1 brought back its popularity with netflix series and films, to make it relevant to the modern day.
Yeah, racing needs to be freely accessible to draw in crowds, they're gaining nothing with their exclusivity.
I mean even NASCAR is available on UA-cam, and F1 is available on ESPN.
@@iPuls3the attendances of people watching DTM in 2000s is 10 times more than in 2024 (50.000 on average compared to just 4800 to 5000 in 2024 DTM SEASON alone).
i went to the nürburgring back in 1993 as a little critter with my dad. and this sound from that era will stick forever with me like the 2000 formula 1 gp on the nürburgring. in retro perspective, thanks to my dad, i was able to hear and see the pinnacle of these motorsport classes
The series from the 1990s onwards were trying to get a Japanese manufacturer into the series Toyota was the one mentioned several times over the years as Toyota has a European base for the Motorsport operation in Germany
If Toyota enters the DTM for years, it could've took over the Aston Martin spot since 2020 with the Supra, same as they replaced the iconic LC500 in Super GT's GT500 class. Sadly, the costs have ruined the Class 1 which made DTM replaced them with GT3 cars.
Toyota Europe is based in Cologne since the 90s. Every wrc rallye drove with corollas in the mid 90s. I don't see the aspect of using toyotas at the DTM. alfa Romeo was already unnecessary enough
The "temporary" adoption of GT3 rules became permanent, and there's no other choice in the short term. In my view, DTM is still around because of the brand, which is still strong enough to attract top drivers.
It's the all-pro, sprint format that differentiates DTM from any other GT series, and IMO makes it still worth watching. Sure there are some pay drivers, but basically the whole grid is gold or platinum, and a sprint format with no driver changes makes it different from say, GT World Challenge.
As cool as the class 1 cars were, the racing is also better with the GT3 cars I think.
@@96gts It should be rebranded to the Deutsche Rennsport Masters, to harken back to the DRM Group 5 Era.
I don’t even consider watching it these days, DTM in the 2000’s were class to grow up with
One of the biggest reasons for DTM dropping Class One regulation is "Manufacturer Loyalty".
This is what makes Super GT still able to use that regulation in a stable manner with Toyota, Honda, & Nissan are all coming in to fund the series.
Not to mention, Super GT as a series is more of a pseudo-endurance series with multiple drivers doing stints for one car and a two class system with GT500 & GT300.
So they have full on support from big manufacturers in GT500, while they have support from smaller manufacturers and tuning shops or dealerships that form the teams in GT300. You wouldn't find that in DTM.
Well there were privateer teams in DTM for a really long time, that didn't really work though since they had to use outdated cars and it was really expensive.
@@Maenfy There also were the WRT Audis in 2019 which had the same machinery as the manufacturer teams (Abt, Rosberg and Phoenix), but didn't get benefits like sharing set up data (which based on something I read earlier this year, at least Abt weren't the biggest fan of due to feeling as if they gave away their advantage)
Of course, Super GT has a much more adequate approach, particularly in the relations between manufacturers and teams. But thank the stupid Western "football" mentality of fans first and foremost. The consumer decides what product to consume, not the manufacturer.
The Japanese marques are doing it for the love of the game. The German marques are doing it for typical western capitalism.
As someone who attended the DTM for several years now, i can say, i don't care what cars they drive. For me it's the racing, which is, compared to other series, really good and offers the "door to door racing" the fans wanted to see (which in class1 was questionable, because of all the aero). The DTM was always a fan series. In no other series were you able to get this close to the cars, drivers or even mechanics. I even watched a race from inside the pits in the garage of Rene Rast (And no i didn't pay extra for this, i was just at the right place, to the right time). And also if you attend a full raceweekend, you have the whole 3 days of racing with multiple series from TCR, Porsche Cup, DTM classics and others.
Better than super cars in Australia?
@@ozanbaskan5524absolutely. REPCO V8 SUPERCARS CHAMPIONSHIP in 2024 was a total disappointment. 2024 Bathurst 1000 is denoted as "THE MOST BORING RACE OF ALL TIME".
Amen
3:22 This kind of aero profile could be seen in Stock Car Brasil between 2010-2019. In that time the cars here looked closer to a DTM car, but we used a Chevrolet(that had nothing in common with the street model and V8 engines). But in 2020 the series took the "closer to the street model" route
And Peugeot 408 until 2016 season
Dont remind me 😭😂
Loved stock car brasil from 2017-2019 but ever since the new cars in 2020 it just doesnt do it for me anymore. In that sense very similar to how my interest in dtm has developed :D
Agree that DTM is not what it used to be, but it still offers some fantastic racing in its current form. It is also popular and the races get good crowds, with top drivers for e.g., Rene Rast, Mirko Bortolotti, Maro Engel competing. I think DTM has made the best of difficult conditions, and adapted to produce some of the most exciting racing we have today.
I followed the last 3 season closely and the racing was a spectacle. not perfect but far more entertaining than a lot of other GT series
One correction - Germany HAD a TCR championship and in the first few year it had grid sizes up to 40+ cars, but dwindling grids and the fact that the then ADAC GT Masters (which was then merged with DTM once both were under the same umbrella) was far more popular, the series was killed off. A potential re-boot was planned, but scrapped. While the GT3 class is still thriving, that's not the case in TCR - the cars are based on C-segment family cars which is now facing extinction as car manufacturers are heading towards either EV's or SUV's (some of the best selling vehicles in Europe are SUV's), which also hampers the FIA's rallying pyramid as the cars used in the World Rally Championship are for the most part based on the smaller B-segment (subcompact class) which are also phased out (the Ford Fiesta ended production in 2022, which forced long time partner M-Sport to use the Puma crossover as the base for their next top tier machine, while the Fiesta family of rally cars below the top range look outdated).
It just seems like ADAC is reorganizing things quite a bit. How do you think the EVs will play a role in the future?
DTM didn't die, it just changed. I agree that the championship was really something to behold and it was very interesting to watch, but the changes has also been positive imo. I see that a lot of people don't like it because "it's just another GT3 championship", and I see your point. But GT3 is also one of the most interesting classes to watch imo, because it's so close and you get so many good battles. Also, there's so many manufacturers in it, so it's a good variety of cars that has different strengths and weaknesses and the very most of them will be able to perform high up through an entire season.
WIth that said tho, I would love to see a comback of the old type cars if it also meant that more manufacturers joined. But with so many different championships and different classes to take part in, I see why GT3 is so popular and that it has the success it has. And to be honest, the championship still holds its status and attracts the top performing drivers, so I still find it very interesting to watch.
Easy way to bring DTM back: Budget cap, used German sedans, stock engine can be modified but cannot swap to different engine, each team uses the same wind tunnel, general body shape must stay the same, mostly German tracks but cannot got anywhere in Europe, then all the usual small print regulatory things.
Yes it's "only another GT3 series" by now but:
who should pay for anything else? It's already super difficult for the teams to find the budgets for a season now
Manufacturers don't want to put that much money in anymore as they did in the past
even if Manufacturers would, you still had the same issue as the DTM basically had all their live: The fear of sudden death when some drop out
and most importantly: The racing is really good and tight! For me the best GT3 Racing at the moment
GT3/GT4 cars are amazing there realtivaly cheap there very quick they dont only look like there road counterpart but are actully base on them there also easy on the budget for a million dollars you can run a gt3 car for almost 3 season you cant do that shit with custom build prototype and i rather see bmw ferrari lambo mclaren aston lexus toyota mercedez honda porsche and audi ducking it out on track racing with cars that still share an engine and chassis with the road going car that is on sale.
@@patthonsirilim5739 I am with you and Andreas on this. I only started watching DTM after it changed to GT3 and honestly? The racing is great! Maybe better than most other racing series! The qualifications are usually very close and they fight. Yes, sure I don't know what McLaren did this year with Dörr Motorsport, they consistently were in the rear during races, but even then, they did some great times!
Also: Better to have good racing in "another GT3 championship" than no DTM at all and another dead motorsport in Germany. Happy to have them still. Also the 'feeder series' that accompany DTM have proven to be cool! LMP2, DTM classic, GT4, M2 Cup, NXT GEN all were awsome! (Yes, ESPECIALLY NXT GEN!)
I'll start by saying I agree with everything you said, but the problem seems to be that DTM doesn't have a unique identity if they just run the same GT3 cars as IMSA for example.
@@Ixxlostinabox It is not just "another GT3 series" imo, it is a unique format of single driver 55 min sprints, all other major GT3 series the car is shared between drivers with FIA rankings restricting lineups or endurance races, DTM makes it way more of a driver series
Went to DTM at Brands Hatch in 2012, 2013 and 2019
It was such a cool series back in the day. Sad it has become what it is now
The GT3 era was meant to bring stability yet the entry lists have still been really volatile each season. Starting with 19, 24, 27, and then a big drop to only 20 cars showing up in 2024 after Audi quits GT3 for F1 and honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Dörr Motorsports is gonna quit soon because of McLaren giving them no help whatsoever like what happened to Pfaff Racing in IMSA.
The most hilarious thing about GT3 era DTM is that it is only technically D and M, and absolutely not T.
Also, i used to watch it in my childhood, along with some Clio and Carrera cup racing, and i like tin tops more than open wheels since than. So it is really sad that DTM flopped, the example of Japan shows that it was purely because of bad management.
Exactly. DTM was, and should be, about fast family cars. Not useless supercars. When using rules and cars from another championship, it should probably be fossile WTCR or electric ETCR.
Well Class One cars also weren't Touring cars, those were Prototypes. DTM lost it's "T" somewhere in the 90s.
The most hilarious thing is when people get confused in terminology and don`t understand that "touring" is much closer to "grand touring" in its idea than to silhouette prototypes. Although I myself prefer the silhouette prototypes, as a kind of highest ("grandest", "greatest") level in the development of the idea.
DTM stopped being a touring car seris when they dropped Group A regs and went to silhouette racing in the early 90's (the current name is just DTM no acronym anymore either)
I went in 2021 to the dtm in hokenheim and it was incredible. The sound and the competition was very nice
2021 Hockenheim finale also ever had nasty 6 car pileup with one car got the engine completely out of the car.😅
I lost all interest since it became a GT3 series, it is too generic for me personally to care about.
I already watch WEC and IMSA and see enough GT3 cars as is
The Class1/GT500 and LMH/LMDH cars are currently massively increase popularity and fans. The GT3 cars are everywhere like average road cars but I love it because it's more of a racing diversity.
well you are missing out. I follow WEC and the difference in racing and drama is hugh. Two absolutly different worlds
you sould give it a try it is way more chaotic and faster pacem it still has wheel to wheel dor banging racing like older DTM
Your missing out, a lot of the same factory drivers from WEC and IMSA but they each have their own car so you get to see them individually shine and who is the best across the season. So what if their using GT3 cars? The racing is still top notch, it's basically a single seater series with factory drivers in GT cars.
I was just thinking about how much I missed those exotic looking sedans
2019 RS5 DTM (which one car that i use in Gran Turismo 7) and BMW 320i Touring Car from Gran Turismo 4 are some of the examples.
When the DTM had died his first death we had the STW, the Super TourenWagen Cup in Germany. This was also a nice race series.
Makes me glad Super GT exists
Alfa Romeo 159, Opel Astra, Audi Abt, Mercedes clk.. i remember since childhood and I'll never forget them and their paint work
Costs killing creativity is a recurring theme these days
I visited several races at the Norisring... damn those cars were loud.... even with hundreds of meters away, you felt the earth. The Start was unbelievable.. i miss the old DTM.. the prototype class 1 cars were beautiful
Good video. For me (as a non-car guy) it isn’t a problem that they now use GT3s - the racing is still exciting after all - but I can understand that a lot of the traditional fanbase feels disillusioned. Heck, you see that in any DTM comments section nowadays.
What still makes the series unique to me is the fact that, contrary to the other GT series in Europe, they still only have one driver per car, making viewers much more inclined to root for personalities and look out for rivalries
yeh, WEC was quite good because you can get team stories going because of how long it pans out
Great video! I agree! I was part of a media team in the DTM from 2007 to 2010. Thank you!
Lets hope Super GT lives long and prosper
Super GT GT500 sill uses Silhouette cars, I hope DTM can go back
The costs have ruined the DTM popularity sadly which is why they dumped the Class 1 and switched to GT3 cars. In Brazil, a motorsport series called 'Stock Car Pro Series'. They also use silhouette cars too but their body platform seems very identical to average street cars. I also wish DTM, Super GT and Stock Car can merge to create a worldwide racing similar to GT World and F1 including racing in 24h of Nurburgring. Super GT has 2 class categories like FIA WEC does but they possess hypercars(LMH) as rebranded LMP1.
Class 1 Silhouette is damn too expensive. I wish they adopt and improvise upon Mother Chassis instead.
@@frankj0484 No need for fantasies. Stock Car is much more primitive and closer to NASCAR than to the DTM Class 1 silhouette prototype. As the experience of Germany and Japan has shown, mentality is very important. In Japan, everything was done adequately in this case and they (and we) got an excellent result. In the west, they chased a stupid show to please not too smart fans who are used to watching football. The result is predictable.
Europe and Japan value different things unfortunately. While Europe is pushing for everybody to be driving electric bubble cars, or not driving at all, and preaching to the rest of the world about how much emissions it's making, Japan is...not.
my friends and I have begun calling DTM the “GT World Challenge Deutschland”
Also, DTM was going to go to an electric series at one time. And let's not forget the 5 years of NASCAR announcing there would be an American DTM series.
It would be awesome if Ford, Chrysler and GM join the Class 1 programs. Luckily, Super GT is still using this kind of race cars, so maybe they're trying to bring the Class 1 cars into worldwide racing series like GT3 cars do.
@@frankj0484 fun fact, GM even had DTM cars thanks to Opel (which they no longer own, but used to when they were in DTM). My personal favourite is the 2001 Astra V8 Coupé
TransAm is kind of like a American DTM Series to me just without the ground effects
I actually didn't mind them switching to GT3 cars, but after the shit show that was the 2021 finale I just couldn't bring myself to continue following the series. :(
I saw it live on track and it was a shame. Liam Lawson could be a F1 Driver and DTM champion today. Good to see that the number of cars from one brand has reduced since then making another "2021" more unlikely.
Give the series a try in 2025, 2024 was great sport!
@@Th3B0ss872021 also showed how poor a quality the drivers in DTM are. Go look at Gotz and Sheldon’s racing record, it’s filled with mediocrity outside of DTM
Yeah, I do miss the old times of DTM. But the gt3 class was necessary for the series' survival. I think the spirit of DTM still remains, if you go to a race you get the most out of any big series in the world and the racing is still peak imo
I was not interested in the GT3 DTM at all. I happened to be at the DTM at the ring this year and the race was MEGA. I watched the rest of the season and as a former hater I have to say it's one of the best racing series we have today. Watch it and you'll quickly realise that the DTM is anything but boring or dead.
As far as I know, Mercedes left DTM at the end of the 2018 season, because they announced their entry for the Formula E which needed alot of investment. As DTM was also very expensive they decided to pull out of the DTM to focus on their development in the Formula E
Merc leaving was the nail in the coffin for DTM I think
@JackLikesTrackhouse yes I agree
A few things that I liked about silhouette DTM (besides the cars):
The live team radio (which did survive for the first 2 GT3 years, sadly the ADAC takeover took that from us), ranging from memorable (infamous "Timo, schieb ihn raus" or the Timo Glock rant against Mercedes in 2018) to interesting things like drivers being directed to their starting boxes
The later DRS rules (it took some time getting there). Not only did you have to be within a second of the car ahead at the line, you also had a limited number of laps during which you could deploy DRS (number depending on track), adding an additional bit of strategy (iirc there also were no official DRS zones but 3 uses per DRS lap, but those effectively resulted in de facto DRS zones, though that might've been changed at some point). I'm fully aware that DRS itself isn't the most popular thing, just think this implementation is a nice way of handling it.
I come from Germany and grew up with the DTM, it shaped my childhood. I have been going to every DTM race at the Lausitzring since 2009. I loved the cars and designs, drivers like Ekström, Scheider, Di Resta, Paffett and many more were heroes to me. The races were thrilling and the fact that it was almost exclusively held in Germany and neighbouring countries made everything seem very down-to-earth. I have the feeling that they wanted too much at some point. Things have gone downhill since Mercedes left in 2018. Aston Martin's entry came far too early and too hastily, so they got out again straight away. As an Audi fan, I was pleased with the successful years, but there was no longer any real competition - unthinkable before 2019. That's probably why Audi pulled out. The move to continue with GT3 cars was logical and I thought it was okay. The races are still worth watching and the driver line-up is now more diverse. But now that Audi has withdrawn there too and only Rast, Wittmann and Auer remain from the former heroes, the series has lost a lot of its magic. I still love the DTM and always will. I hope better times will come soon.
Back in the 90’s it was unbelievably good
The BMW E30 DTM and 155 DTM Alfa Romeo was one of them.
Yeh, just like BTCC
We still have Super GT and Australia Supercars which uses silhouette cars, lets hope they don't die out soon
Australian Supercars never use to be silhouette cars and now there boring as fuck.
yeah Australian Supercars are not what they used to be either.
@@adrianbalboa5353 I don't want to hurt you but Supercars are silhouette cars since the introduction of the COTF in 2013.
@@Deutschmaschine0 And well, Project Blueprint and arguably the Class 3A Regulations themselves had so little to do with the road cars they've been silhouettes since 93'
Watched British touring car in the 90s I have started to watch it again it's still good thankfully.
Our racing fans are rather weird in a nice way. We all have great memories from the racing which impressed us when we were younger and want to experience it again. In Formula 1, older fans want the naturally aspirated cars back. In MotoGp they want 2 stroke bikes and ban rider aides. I've been watching DTM since the inception of the series and thoroughly enjoyed all the races but the racing in it's current GT3 format is of the most exciting I've seen. The live coverage from every conceivable angle including in-car action is better than ever. We also see an international line-up of top drivers. The driver commitment and aggression is spectacular! The cars are so closely balanced/matched in performance which leaves it all to the driver to drive the wheels off it and pit crew to win races. I'm an old bat who still races the cars I loved of yester year but I can also appreciate and enjoy fantastic current DTM racing. All I need on DTM race days is a vpn and beer.
Being a petrolhead kid back in the 90`s i sometimes loved DTM more than F1!!!😃☝The competition, the innovation, the drivers simply amazing.🌟The cars looked like a normal series car on extra unusual steroids screaming for victory.Nowadays UFOs are racing with drivers comment always the same cassette. Unfortunately DTM lost its earth like touch and the audience doesn`t care anymore!! 🤗😕
The Class 1 Touring Car spec they had that was shared with the SuperGT GT500 cars was such a cool idea. It's a shame they only ever did one race with that mixed grid, and it wasn't even a points race.
The first racing sim that gets all 6 of 2019-spec cars along with their respective complete schedules outside of modding will have my money.
I agree with others that's its just another GT3 championship when they switched specs. Now that WEC is getting better and better every year. I get my Hypercar and GT3 racing in one hit.
I'm British, We pretty much invented the Super Touring era and the 90's were great because we had 10 manufacturers battling door to door, However we also loved the DTM because the cars looked great and were monsters, The Opel Calibra, Alfa 155 and Mercedes A class. Then the money side of things went crazy in both the BTCC and DTM and that's what killed them.
have just seen a Baby Benz the other day :)
but old M3's have become very rare here in germany, I think.
I am now 30 years old and my father brought my to DTM when I was 7 years old. It was such a great experience back then, the paddock was not expensive and thous the drivers where approachable. Even those "big names", where nowadays there are none. Back then, the support series where the F3 and Formula BMW, both had really good drivers for the future in them. It is sad to see how DTM lost its identity. There is nothing special to it.
jp, the old DTM was nice. miss the live events 2017-2019
I remember when SPEED TV used to air DTM races in the US. They were always re airs and they would run them on like a Tuesday afternoon or something but it always intrigued me and I wished it was more accessible.
Would it be fair to observe that the fate of DTM mirrors the fate of Germany in general?
I learned about DTM in 2020 and enjoyed the race cars, and drivers. Unfortunately I discovered the series to late and the unique Class 1 cars got replaced with GT3. At least Super GT still runs the Class 1 cars but it's a shame you can't see them elsewhere. Maybe one day Class 1 can become big like GT3 cause those cars are cool.
Without GT3, the DTM would likely be dead. For me, the DTM isn’t just about the cars; it’s the close, wheel to wheel racing. The robust and simple GT3 cars deliver this intensity better than their predecessors. The added brand variety also makes the series more entertaining. Losing Class 1 cars is sad, but it’s a high level complaint considering how much GT3 has revitalized the DTM.
Plus, it’s the only high level GT3 sprint series with one driverper car, making it unique.
Everyone saying that its just another GT3 championship...yes, GT3 is literally the most exciting racing format in the world. Look at all the endurance races, the Rennen24, the fanatec GT3 series etc etc. They are way more exciting than what the original DTM format used to be
Finally some sense. Only somebody that doesn't watch DTM can say it's dead. Extremely close racing and championships and a huge variety of cars. I've yet to see a boring GT3 race series.
From 2009 to 2014 i went to Hockenheim every year for the DTM, it was a great series with Mercedes and Audi the main players. The new rules killed it off and i haven't bothered watching it since.
Was probably the best touring car championship in the world following the super touring era.
DTM died in the 90s, when they changed from production cars to silhouettes.
I was effected so much by these kind of videos and never gave a chance to the new DTM for a long time but when I did, it became my favorite GT3 series with the format and drivers. I know the previous DTM was something else but not gonna lie it was boring when there were only Audi and BMW in its later years.
It may be seen as just another GT3 series, but it's a sprint series rather than an endurance one. It also carries more Super Licence points than any other GT3 series.
Loved the mid 90tis DTM.
The BTCC in the UK is still showing how today, a series can use unique cars not seen in any other championship whilst still being successful and financially viable, and with manufacturers interest. But I think its now too late for the DTM to go back to being a true touring car championship, as moving to TCR/BTCC style cars would lose lots of the drivers and manufacturer interest, so any route other than GT3 seems impossible
I think the BTCC has it's own issues at the moment, what with hybrid power coming in a couple of years ago and now being dropped for 2025, and a pretty sharp drop in grid size from 27 cars in 2023 to just 20 in '24. Still produces great racing though.
@dominicbarden4436 2024 was a great season, and grids are expected to go back up to 22/24 cars for 2025. Bear in mind, team hard made up 6 entries in 2023 and they were pretty useless so their loss wasn't that much of an issue lol
theres only 5 good drivers in btcc. Hill is the worst champion in btcc.
@@sadikurrahman4833 Ok? Thats completely unrelated to what I said and I get the feeling that you're just hating because the BTCC isnt like 'the old days'
@tees6675 2024 was a great season for sure.
As someone who has been to a lot of the races this year, I can say it's still a well supported series.
Sure, it isn't getting the same numbers as it was in the 90s, but nor is pretty much any racing series besides F1.
DTM was on free-to-air TV all this year (Pro-7) and the Hockenheim finale in October packed the seating allocation for both Saturday and Sunday.
It's easy to cry that the cars aren't unique anymore - same can be said throughout motorsport and it's just the times we live in - but DTM is competitive and there is good on-track action at every race. As a motorsport fan of over 30 years, the racing itself is what I go to see, not the aesthetics of the cars.
The hypercar's maximum lift:drag ratio might have worked for DTM. Start with silhouette, done change front surface more than x% and add wing and winglets and splitters up to a drag/lift ratio. Or, nominal drag and nominal down force. A common high level spec chassis with variable wheelbase (to match road car) would help with costs. Suppliers like Bosch could offer specific DTM spec sealed systems.
What I don't understand is how Japanese manufacturers can make Class 1 work in SuperGT while German manufacturers totally gave up. Some of them are the biggest automobile groups of the world (hello VW ??) and it's still too expensive ?
That said, even with GT3 machinery I would say the series hasn't entirely lost its soul, the format and the rules are still unique and it's very entertaining, thanks to the drivers.
Japanese manufacturers mainly race in Japan. Only Toyota is really going international (WEC & WRC), Honda and Nissan are barely doing anything outside of Super GT.
@@Maenfy Well, Honda are in F1, Indycar and IMSA, although it's the American division of the brand, so I don't know how independent they are from the main branch.
Asian market is huge
There's just more motorsport fans in that region
Also i think F1 has got lot of the fans in europe
Most people i know only follow F1 and they don't care about any other european racing series
@@ZeugmaP HRC is now a global company, HPD isn't a thing anymore, Honda is trying to find cheaper alternatives, now that they own Mitsubishi they're likely to be in the WRC in 2027.
My perspective as a new DTM fan. I understand why a lot of earlier fans are disillusioned with the current state of things, such a huge change will always ruin it for those who loved the old stuff, just like F1 has been ruined for many including me with the V6 era back in the day. However I love GT3 cars and the DTM is not "just another" GT3 series but possibly the best one, up there with GT World Challenge for sure and I'll be watching in 2025.
For me it’s another gt series like with the adac gt one
DTM has full factory driver lineups, many of which also compete in other top sportscar series like WEC and IMSA in prototypes. GT Masters is a Pro-Am series with gentlemen drivers. They are not the same.
Those class 1's looked badass 👀
I think the competitiveness of the field still separates DTM from other GT3 series but otherwise it has lost that uniqueness.
God I miss the various 80s/90s touring car racing series.
I Plan to go to a Race because i Hope this Cars will still have a good Sound. My Kids will love it
I still watch it and I still love it. To be honest: I don't gett why people just argue abou the cars. Sure the class one cars looked amazing but the Aero brought some issues and things like DRS had to be installed even to make overtaking possible. The class one era had some strange regulations regarding this and it wasn't always fun to watch. Also the manufacturer support with just 3 brands lead to situation were from the middle of a season all the other Teammates of one brand drove for their leader in the championship. I don't want to see those things. In the end all I want from a racing series is close and tense battles and a championship that is open until the last racing weekend. And man here DTM delivers every single year since GT3 era.
I like how the cars resemble road cars now (and arguably are far more similar to them as well) now rather than entirely bland tube-framed chassis with Audi/Mercedes/BMW plastered on a fiberglass body over it
Now the racing series that still running this group 1 regulation is only Super GT specifically on GT500 class, and filled with a company that's selling a common car that you can see on the road (toyota, honda, nissan). And in fact, they still running the championship until now.
That's crazy how this class costing but they still running the Super GT (GT500) championship
when the formula involves manufacturers it really gets complicated especially if the said manufacturers can call the shots on what they want. I think so far the closest to what "DTM style" race cars (besides Super GT) is actually Stock Car Brasil. Basically silhouette race cars but with more control over the regulations. Heck even Toyota were making Corolla Cross into a race car which was pretty cool lol. DTM died because they tried too hard.
even WEC went back to GT3 - let's hope that the super GT stays like we have it now
Guys, DTM is not dead. I watch their races for free on UA-cam. The races are ridiculously exciting. Don't just stick to F1 because you're missing a lot. DTM deserves way more love than it gets. The battles there are just sick
DTM is dead. Its just another Gt3 Series with DTM batch. Good Gt3 racing but nothing to do with a DTM.
Rule makers are idiots. Bring back the early rulebook. Based on a homologated 4 door road cars....some aero, some basic aids.
I like the new DTM. Thank you for the good video first!
The years 2000-2020 had unique cars and innovation but for which "price"? Starting with only three brands, after losing Opel even reduced to long boring years of only Audi vs. Mercedes. Comeback of BMW saved a bit but not for long. Ultra advanced aero was so complex that even light contact between cars destroyed the plastic flaps and races. So there were lots of penalties and "contact sport driving" was no more possible. Not to forget about clean washed driver statements and team orders directed by the "brands".
2021 gave a real strong start. You can only blame the team order finale which cost Liam Lawson the deserved title. Now we are racing "casual" luxus cars other than the prototypes in shape of a everyday car. But it is much closer to the 80s now: private teams, relaxed open paddocks, real good races, open championship til last race, contact fighting cars which are more resistant in fights. Racing is much more in the focus now. During 2000-2020 it was often more a sales event for the big brands. I am still looking forward to go to Norisring every year.
i got tickets to see it live at hockenheim in the last season they had "prototypes"(2020), mercedes was gone already and aston martin had a car that was bad, but it was a sight to behold altogether still. loud fast and uncanny, as they looked like streetcars and wentt 300kph. i understand why they went gt3 as a temporary soluion as the manufacturers didnt want to spent money on a "useless" engine, butr bmw using it for the gtp/lmh is a banger sign, aswell as talks about merging with supergt OR going electric and being the first electric GT series. Well see, i hope they know what to do with the name
edit: didnt know about the thing making mercedes leave being turbos- while turbos are the future of combustion engines. Classic German decision, not going for the future and sticking with outdated tech.
DTM since 1990s to 2014: PURE DTM TOURING CARS like 155 DTM, 190E EVO II, and BMW M6 DTM.
DTM since 2020s: LMGT3 DTM. (Le Mans GT3 Masters)
Yeah those silhouette DTM cars lapped like LMP2 when the latter was at its fastest. Not a lot of power but amazing chassis and some good aero.
I'll never understand the "just another GT3 series". Which other GT3 series does sprint races with professional drivers and many of the top privateer teams again? Because I'd certainly watch it ...
They offer something unique.
Dtm is currently the most expensive gt3 championship too. For reasons unknown
DTM is still the GT3 racing series I enjoy watching the most. So I don't mind the changes. It's the superb racing that counts.
BTCC was also amazing. Great times!
Yes it was!
The recent rise in cost in all racing series need to be studied. Basically every single racing series that wasn't using common regs was forced to change because of cost. How hard is it to put a cap on that and how the hell is so much money lost in r & d
DTM was fantastic in 2012-13, after that I gradually lost interest due to the constant team orders and cars breaking apart due to slight contact.
I never really got into the GT3 DTM. GT3 cars changed so much in the last 10 years, they're very sophisticated race cars now.
And BTW German TCR hasn't run since 2022.
I lament the loss of DTM. There is absolutely room for it however, cost is becoming the primary driver for racing as technology has grown so far beyond what we could imagine.
I wished for a future with DTM, Super GT and Ford and Chevy pushing Australian Supercars into a world touring car championship akin to the 80s'-90's series mixed with more modern F1.
I think you could get around that with a real tourenwagen ruleset, thats close to the original car. So only factory chassis and limited difference in bodypanel and aero. Then threw in a cage, fire supression system and the other fia stuff. Then get a small and efficient ruleset for BoP so everybody can use the engine configuration they like. There are many more details to consider, but overall this idea could have helpes the series to not drift so far away.
Well, the current GT3 rules are closer to the original DTM's technical intent than everything else that came after 1994.
True DTM up until today would consist of GT4 versions of M4, S5, C63 AMG, maybe add a Giulia QV. No idea why that would be so hard to do.
I still don't understand how the Super GT partnership didn't work out. The car formula was very similar to DTM or yore, at least aestetically, and Super GT in Japan is a fantastic product in and of itself. Was it the cost of travelling? Seems to me like DTM could've used the same multi-class formula as Super GT and they could've had several cross over races, like WEC does with Le Mans and a couple others. They could've even pegged the class to perform alongisde LMP2 which seems to be about the performance level of Super GT cars anyway. I assume the business really got in the way of the logic but that's what happens when rich people who don't actually give a shit about racing are in charge of the show.
Nicely done, a little generic but you picked a good subject as clearly others like me are wondering what happened to DTM. IMO, would’ve been nice to get some more info and detail photos of what exactly made the DTM cars so expensive - the really wild aero and crazy interiors that had drivers seated way back and in middle of car
Thank you so much for you making this video about of my favourite touring car racing series all time.
Also my favourite cars in DTM it was the Mercedes 190E Evolution 2 and BMW E30 M3.
and my favourite races in DTM was the 1992 season between these two German rivals legends the Mercedes vs BMW both of them racing against each other at the race track and suddenly Mercedes win the Championship season in 1992 and that's my favourite manufacturer rivals in motorsports history.
I think you explained very well why DTM is basically a shell of it's former self: it was too expensive for a national championship. Funny thing is that Germany already had a full-on GT3 championship by the time DTM switched over to GT3: The ADAC GT Masters. I found it a baffling choice that DTM also went to GT3 cars, because they now run 2 national GT3 championships in Germany. They even frequently race together in the same weekend, which might be even wilder. And I'm not even taking the VLN into consideration here, where the top class also run GT3 cars. In Germany a team can literally enter 3 championships with the same car.
What about the differences between DTM and Super GT Championship in Japan?
Super GT has two classes, GT500, which has the class of cars DTM was supposed to have, and GT300, a modified GT3 spec that allows for absolutely hilarious scenes like a Prius blowing past a Lambo. Easily the greatest racing on the planet.
DTM is touring race series, while SuperGT is GT race series, also SGT has multiclass race..
DTM is a sole class racing(formerly the Class 1 and now the GT3) while Super GT has 2 class categories. In GT500 class, it's basically the pre-2021 DTM cars they're still possessing, since 2014 to today, the cars require to have 2 liters turbocharged straight 4 engines with 650hp and the mass is the same as Le Mans Hypercars(LMH/LMDH) which is 1030kg while in GT300 class, it's a modified FIA GT3 cars which also allows mother chassis like Prius, Supra, BRZ, etc to compete with the matching homologations. Both Super GT and FIA WEC(endurance Le Mans series) are the best and most interesting racing series in the world.
@@EagleFntm Super GT uses two-class system with GT500 & GT300.
GT500 is pretty much the same as Class One DTM but they don't use DRS system and there's a tyre war between Bridgestone, Dunlop, & Yokohama (they also have it in GT300).
In GT300, you will find your regular FIA-GT3 cars, but there are also two different types of cars racing against it. First is GTA-GT300 which is basically what GT500 cars used to be back in the 90s & early 00s (road car based race cars) and the second one is Mother Chassis cars which is a pure silhouette formula with a Dome chassis & Nissan derived V8.
@@frankj0484 The retired Prius is a GTA-GT300 car.
A GTA-GT300 still keeps some parts from the road car (mainly cabin) and can use any engine they want as long as it came from the same brand as the original car, hence why it used the RV8K & 2UR-GSE across its life. This is your Prius, GR Supra, GR86, BRZ, LC500h, & Z/400Z.
A Mother Chassis will all have the same Dome chassis & the same Nissan derived V8 no matter the silhouette body. This is your Evora, MC86, & Mark X.
I tried to adapt to the Series out of love but I gave up after 2022 and I caught one race last season and it was terrible, I didn't even finish the race...R.I.P. DTM
I used to watch them because of the Class 1 cars until 2021 because the costs have made Audi left the Class 1 program, leaving BMW being the only brand which caused DTM to dump them and switched to GT3 cars but luckily Super GT is still possessing them as GT500 class. These cars are quicker than Le Mans hypercars when it comes to cornering speed but they have the same mass as them which is 1030kg but slower when it comes top speed. Nowadays in WEC, the hypercars and in Super GT, the GT500(Class 1) are currently racing together with GT3 cars. These race cars deserved to race everywhere like GT3 and F1 cars do but in the future, maybe they should go hybrid mode like F1 cars and Le Mans hypercars do instead of EV like Formula E.
I felt another factor of decline, in the final years of ITR's ownership, was a lot of the races were being held at empty Grade 1 circuits around Europe (e.g Imola, Algarve, Spa), which I imagine people near the locations had little interest in the series. I hope ADAC's push to have more of the races back in Germany helps get a fan base built back up.
I also feel they could look to the current specs in BTCC or the Australian Supercars for inspiration.
Still wish DTM is more like how it used to be, but the car manufacturers probably won't want it since that means producing road cars that have a lot modifications to make them more competitive on the racetrack.
I want DTM to comeback someday...
Cope