How Mercedes’ Wind Tunnel Mistake Ended Their F1 Dominance
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- Опубліковано 20 лис 2024
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👏 Thanks to Willem Toet for joining us on this one! - Follow him on LinkedIn / willemtoet1
When you think of Mercedes in Formula 1, you think of the team that won eight championships in a row, but I’ve recently learnt of one key mistake that caused all of that success to end in 2022.
Mercedes arrived at testing in Bahrain in 2022 with an unusual design - the zeropod concept, but the results weren’t as expected. And poor performance lasted until more recently, where now they’re in the hunt for at least a podium most weekends.
So, what caused this two-year blip, well, it all starts in their wind tunnel.
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#Mercedes #F1 #Aerodynamics
The average f1 fan is able to learn so much more than previous years, I absolutely love all of this information, super helpful in understanding the sport and enjoying it more
Is it? Back when I watched it, I learned a lot, looking in deep to the aerodynamics every week, technical information about development current and future.
ikr, and when i talk about these things with my dad and friends, theyre like where did u get those infos.
@@helloitsme3940 newspapers and specialized magazines?
@@helloitsme3940 Newspaper and specialized magazines? And TV programs, before the race.
@IIARROWS the new show and tell is a huge difference... plus the detailed breakdowns you dont need an engineering degree to figure out.
TLDR: they probably used a smooth ground belt for more consistent and less wear-dependent simulation data because of their limited number of tests but underestimated the ground boundary layer and its effect on the ground effect cars caused by a rougher, more realistic road surface.
Ya he really dragged this one out didn’t he
He always does this guy, sooo painful to watch
Toto pretty much said this in early 2022 when he joked about repaving all the tracks to be perfectly smooth
He didn't drag it on at all, I didn't understand any of this until he broke it down
Thank you. Honestly the video didnt need to be that long. Felt some of them was just utter BS to extend the video for content. Seriously though.. how does explaining how a wind tunnel push and split air has to do with anything? Dude.. get to the point. Sooo painful to watch
Not very glamorous but I used to clean the carpets now and again at the Red Bull wind tunnel site. The scale F1 cars were amazing, even under the bodywork everything was duplicated for working out cooling and fit under load.
Damn I'd be more than happy to do that
I would pay to do that
You should have taken images and sold them to other teams. Boom!
@@The_ZeroLine They've got signs everywhere saying no photography and CCTV everywhere. Their, understandably, very hot on stuff like that.
@@ant1010 could have used a hidden camera - a low level job like that is worth the risk IMO
‘Deliciously complicated’ is my new phrase of the week
if you want to be called "nerd" by random people, go for it.
@@walkman1984 nerd
thats the sound of a real engineer - excited by complications
Air Flow Sandwich is my new phrase
my relationship status on facebook is deliciously complicated.
A chief mechanic once said that MotoGP was 80% rider and 20% bike, while F1 is 80% car and 20% driver. Every year that goes by, I agree with that appraisal more and more.
largely agree but certain drivers completely disrupt this theory such as schumacher + alonso, dragging wildly inferior cars to the top step
@@bonk5207 not so sure about that. his renault 08 win was controversial. Didn't do anything in mclaren 15+. Zero wins in aston. Every successful driver needs the best or equal best car. That said, the cream almost always rises to the top.
@@Bahamuttiamat Would you be willing to provide an example of a time the cream DID NOT rise to the top and why is it Wrestlemania 5
@@Bahamuttiamat this is a pretty bad take in my opinion for a couple of reasons
A. While i know which 08 Renault win you're talking about you failed to mention the fact that he won 2 races with that car, the second of which being on merit and not controversial at all
B. Even if the 15-17 Mclaren was the 5th fastest car (which they certainly were not anywhere close to) it really wouldn't have mattered as they broke down every other race
You also decided to skip over his whole Ferrari stretch which is the one part of his career everyone praises him for outdriving his car, yes ofcourse no one can win a championship with the worst car on the grid, but as Fernando showed in 2012 you can get extremely close to one with the 3rd or maybe even 4th fastest car if you have the tallent to do so
in the end i agree that you need a good car to succed in f1 but jeash pick a different argument than "Fernando couldn't win in the Mclaren Honda"
@@chadwickalexanderjr1758 well Kimi and Mclaren is one example
I want to thank Willem for turning up and explaining this stuff to us. For years I used to read magazines like Autosport and wonder about how teams either moved forwards or back in performance, and study the differences between aero on the photos of races. It always fascinated me, but of course I was basically just trying to guess.
So I greatly appreciate this level of explanation. It truly puzzled me how Mercedes not just dropped the ball in their design but took so long to fix it. This explains an awful lot.
Too many ad interruptions
Why you do UA-cam ????
TL;DR - Mercedes used a belt that was too smooth in the wind tunnel, that then didn’t accurately recreate air pressure created on track
So Ground Effect era significantly altered how critical the surface texture of the track is to performance. Restricted wind tunnel tests for Mercedes combined with a test “road” surface that was too smooth meant their testing failed to demonstrate real world performance. Consequently, Mercedes spent a long time in the dark as to why their cars were performing so badly compared to their own expectations.
.....NOPE...ACTUALLY GROUND EFFECT does AFFECT SUSPENSION,BUT AT WIND TUNNELS MODELS WERE HELD firmly SO ENGINEERS COULDNT DETECT THAT PORPOISING
.......AND ABOUT THESE AIR LAYERS........IT'S NOT that IMPORTANT .....AND LAYERS ARE complicated!!!.....AS JUST *_HOLDING THE MODEL ONLY AT WHEELCAPS_* BUT ALLOWING MODEL itself HOLD BY IT'S OWN........
......BY THE WAY,SIR COLIN CHAPMAN HAD FOUND THE SOLUTION AT *_ACTIVE REAR SUSPENSION_* .....DIDNT HE.........
....NEWEY IS not GENIUS AT normal UNDERSTANDING ......HE'S GENIUS OF *_CHEATING_* ..........DONT FORGET that......OKAY??.....WHAT *FOURTH PEDAL* AND *COLD EXHAUST* ARE TO DO WITH actual AERODYNAMICS?? nothing.............SO WHEN HE LEFT RB,HE JUST TOOK RIGHT TO USE CHEATS....OK???..........SO RB HAD TO DO STUFF like all others do ...........
........LIKE IT'S BEEN TOLD why REDBULL STARTED TO DOMINATE WHEN ALL other TEAMS STARTED TO PORPOISE,RIGHT????........ALL BUT RB
@@robotnikkkk001you okay?
@@robotnikkkk001 I imagine you have a room full of pictures and connected everything via red lines and it upsets you that nobody is seeing how everything fits together but you. O.o
@@robotnikkkk001gradpa, you forgot your meds again i think
@@robotnikkkk001 try decaf my dude.
Would rather have the entire interview than your commentary. Not that the commentary is bad. But because such interviews are so rare. Can you upload the entire William Toet interview?
As someone who works printing the wind tunnel model parts it’s great to see this kind of coverage for a part of the sport that is often forgotten about 👍🏻
Fun fact: Particle Image Velocimetry is also called ‘Adrian Newey Vision’
Why so?
@@belugafan2961 because the man can see air
@@misguidance__ i see
@@belugafan2961 no, only adrian can
@@herbertusdergmiatliche you beat me to it
As someone taking a first year fluid mechanics course this semester, I'm glad that I was able to understand most of these explanations. Really love the detail like talking about the boundary layer
The 'How' starts at 16:41
Yeah, this was brutal. Watched the whole thing and basically it's, Mercedes used a smooth road instead of a bumpy one.
3:56 seeing him standing inside the turning vanes was a genius shot to include. Loved that.
As someone who currently works at an F1 wind tunnel, this is a great video. Everything is bang on and well presented.
If you don't work at a wind tunnel, skip to 16:41.
Have they figured out a way to do wind tunnel testing with the front wheels turned and the car in yaw to simulate cornering?
I don't watch every video you put out because my overall motorsports interests are a bit narrow, but whenever I watch one of your videos it's SUPER HIGH QUALITY, well produced, with obvious efforts and time and cost put into it. Great information, visuals, explained in a way that doesn't require expertise.
Fantastic channel, I appreciate all your efforts, this is better than most stuff on TV, much less YT.
7:20 to about 8:35, best part of the video for me. I had a general understanding of laminar flow but I didn't really have a good picture of it in my mind. This 1 minute section of the video, for me at least, is the best description and visual explanation I have yet to find. Thank you so much, it's like a light got turned on for me and I can finally "see". ❤✌️👍
Astonishing how long it took them to work things out, given how incredible the aero was on the W11
Mostly arrogance that zero sidepod was the best possible design in the current regulations
they haven't worked anything out, the car was really quick in spa by a miracle and silverstone it was mostly just consistent driving by lewis and good pit stops (final laps verstappen was catching up really quickly and mclaren shot themselves in the foot by putting softs instead of mediums). Now the car is back to where it was before, sometimes good sometimes bad
They are as bad as ever during these regs right now.
@@j.s3300 they are literally the fastest car on the straights. Their only issue is strategy and balance
@@Frezzyy it wasnt a miracle. They are the fastest car on straights by a delta of more than 3 km/hr without drs. Any track with ztraights and high speed corners, they will dominate
Thanks Scott, another belter, no pun intended. Makes a mockery of "Adrian can see air flow" and helps us recognise the complexity of aero. I don't particularly think Mercedes dropped the ball but rather were a part of the FIA's desire to level the playing field for the time limiting reasons you discussed. Almost feels a shame to be heading to a new rule set when the field is finding a balance but what a great season we are having.
Honestly never knew how complicated it was building an f1 car and getting the aero working together top video 👌🏻
3:03 end of the ad
1:50: they’re NOT “just trying to add more grip”. Adding grip increases air friction, which reduces speed. They are trying to add more grip, while also trying to make the car more slippery. That is why it’s so difficult.
As an Aerodynamicist is so great to see the level of quality and deep content available nowadays in a free platform like youtube.
It's crazy that you can get Willem Toet, and absolute masterclass of aerodynamicist, teaching you these super detailed problems and real life scenarios!
More than 16 minutes into a 19 minute video, you finally describe the problem from the video title. You make very useful content but the title is misleading clickbait.
Welcome to UA-cam where clickbait is the new normal
I was frustrated by this too. And the answer only took a couple minutes to explain.
Plus there were two host read advertisements and three UA-cam advertisements during the video. Way too many.
I think you misunderstand the whole video. Fluid dynamics is a very complicated topic and you cannot condense it into 3 minute video. The context that Scott provides is actually very important to the conclusion.
Fast forward to where you want then. I enjoyed the context. So for me, GFC, and theres a reason hes got a channel and you don't. ESAD
It's like when Uni students are complaining that they have to take "bullshit" courses like math and physics in the first few semesters. It's needed to understand the ones that they really want to study. The first 16 minutes (expect the ads) are needed to fully understand the last 3 minutes
That was an awesome video, I love data, analysis and trying to understand why, how etc.. but i never thought about that. Thanks Willem !
Outstanding video. An incredibly complicated subject explained reasonably simply.
In the last 3 mins...
You got me at "deliciously complicated". Thanks, it was a great video.
Video starts at 16:15
You're a legend !
thank you so much
Thankyou for your service and screw thus guy
Thank you!!
Thanks mate, this guy really thought talking nonsense for 16 minutes was alright
That was the best video about F1 aero I’ve ever seen. I’m so sick of being shown details of floor skirts and wings etc to try and get excited about each teams’ updates but this was informative.
The 22 cars had so much more colour! Bring back fully painted cars through a weight allowance in the next regs
@@apc9681 I’d rather have full carbon cars with stickers here and there. Save on weight and look even cooler
as much as i"d like more different colour schemes, the worst "special livery" to me was the carbon themed Ferrari, which didn"t feature any more exposed carbon than usual.
@@illdeletethismusic make it all black then you’re talking 😎
Given that a completely red Ferrari has 40 grams of red paint on it, I'd say the weight is not a factor in choosing the color scheme.
@@bythelee maybe just the red paint weighs 40 grams but that doesn’t mean that ALL the pInt weighs 40 grams. All the paint probably weighs 4-6kg. I’m saying get rid of all the paint, thats a massive savings.
Worked briefly at Mercedes F1 (Old Honda) in Brackley for the 2012 car. Amazing facility, Brawn would walk around the office and it was the days when Schumacher was still racing. Good times
Any update on the updside down run?
never going to happen
it was always going to end in tears
Here we go again. He is waiting for funding, it's going to take more than a year.
@@emenesu he should fold and let redbull sponsor it, otherwise its probably going to be never happen
@@emenesu Here we go again - people being impatient with other people asking questions.
Turbulence per se is not a bad thing. In fact, turbulent boundary layers are prefered in areas where strong adverse pressure gradients exist to help avoid separation. You confuse turbulence and separation.
Wow I actually did a project on the Prandtl Boundary Layer for a fluid mechanics module at university around 5 years. Haven’t heard it mentioned since then until now.
This should have been titled as a generalised wind tunnel & aerodynamics education piece, the Mercedes angle was just wedged into the last 2 minutes to give the video a clickable title
Sad...
The life of a youtuber
And they are basing their facts on the opinion of a guy who wasn’t even there.
Amazing complaints 🙄
youtubers need to please the algorithm to get their videos shown, blame youtube. i would absolutely complain about a youtuber being clickbaity were it entirely unnecessary, but the algorithm gods must be worshipped if youtubers dont want their channels to just stop getting promoted
Aerodynamics is a huge and very interesting subject. A close friend of mine develops small scale radio controlled speed run cars. Building and racing 1/12, 1/10 and 1/8 scale vehicles at over 100MPH is not as easy as some may think. One current project even uses active giro assisted steering, electronically adjustable spoiler and rear wing providing live micro fine control of aerodynamics and downforce. When You are changing the surface roughness of the paint on specific sections of a body shell to gain an extra one or two MPH You know it's going to be a fun week. Often wished we had a wind tunnel to test the RC cars in as doing all testing and development outdoors, effectively on track R&D, makes it so much harder to get consistent data but after seeing some of the complexity of wind tunnel calibration issues maybe we are better off with live outdoor testing. Always very interesting to hear from professionals who live and breath aerodynamics. Thank You for these excellent videos Sir. Keep up the good work.
0:12 they weren’t allowed to spend $400 million + on there car …
they was before covid
On catering? Like red bull
Their*
And they're not allowed to do 1000 km of secret tyre tests and get away with it anymore, the FIA has found new toys to play with 😂
Super detailed piece Scott. The information gained from U're vids comes in F1 increments. Little more here, a little more there. There's always something new to add to the picture. Many thanx & as always, best regards 👍👍
Skip to 16:00 to hear about merc.
What does this teach us: A good driver (like Lewis) only becomes champion if he is backed by the best engineers. If the engineers make a mistake, no matter "how great" that driver is, he cannot push that car to do miracles and win championships. In other words, Lewis was lucky to drive a Mercedes and not a Haas in the years when he won.
Very true. But don’t forget the checo-Redbull side of the same coin! Just because you have a quality car doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed success
And Max was lucky because only Redbull nailed ground effect cars and no one was able to catch until now which is Losing every race .
At the end of the day, to win a championship, you need the best driver in the best car. One doesn’t work without the other.
@@sadushukle2141 That's pretty self evident for any example for that matter, irrespective of it being Lewis-Mercedes or Verstappen-Red Bull.
This is not news though. The competition for the drivers is not fair and never was. That's the result of the technical arms race we all love and enjoy seeing.
Thanks for the explanation! Brought me back to the old days when I took two fluids courses in my undergrad. It sure explains also why the ground-effect F1 cars are just so sensitive, especially to floor damage.
Gemini summarized this:
Mercedes' wind tunnel testing issues that caused their F1 dominance to end in 2022 were due to the following reasons:
Rolling Road Surface Roughness: The team used a smoother Rolling Road surface than the actual track, which led to inaccurate data on how the car's aerodynamics would behave in real-world conditions.
Limited Testing Time: Mercedes was restricted to 36 wind tunnel runs per week in 2021 due to the aerodynamic testing regulations, which made it difficult to conduct enough reference runs to calibrate their data."
Focus on Performance over Calibration: In order to maximize their limited testing time, Mercedes prioritized performance testing over calibration runs, which led to further inaccuracies in their data.
These issues combined to give Mercedes a false sense of confidence in their car's performance, which led to them making poor design choices that ultimately ended their dominance.
"Deliciuously Complicated" reflects EXACTLY the challenges of full scale correlation aerodynamics. Kudos on your excellent video and to Wilhelm for his super insightful comments.
2 ad reads in 5 minutes is wild
Remember 2008 when selling anything on the netwant you were a sellout for the man
That sir was the best in-depth explication of wind tunnel correlation I have seen.
1977: Lotus founder Colin Chapman realized - thanks to a mistake in the manufacture of the side pods of the JPS78 Formula 1 car - that by putting a flexible slat on the bottom outside edge of the side pods, the car cornered significantly faster than without them - as standard F1 cars of the day only had wings for aerodynamic aids at both ends back then. It ultimately led to the JPS79 that gave both Mario Andretti and the late Ronnie Petersen the fastest (if not the most reliable) car in F1 leading to Andretti winning the driver's championship, Petersen (who had passed away from injuries sustained in the Italian GP) posthumously securing second place, and Team Lotus securing the 1978 Constructer's championship.
It would be interesting to get your take on the Red Bull situation, now that Horner admitted making mistakes in car development and not listening to Perez.
Could you maybe interview willem on how their workflow is, like which programs they use and how (like its said mercedes is using star ccm+, redbul is using ansys and williams openfoam etc) but how do they test and compare stuff to their windtunnel runs, how do they improve, how fine is their mesh (the "accuracy" how their model before doing cfd tests), do they use math or some sort of trial and error shapes if testing new parts for certain areas of the car etc. This is nerdy but super interesting!
It only took me one year to understand every topic of this video... thanks! This one is a good way to measure understanding of aero topics.
So basically, they made a massive change to their whole testing procedure, without verifying specifically how this will impact data collection. Seems like a massive oversight from everyone there
It's a lack of institutional knowledge. The industry figured this out in the 80s, but by the 2020s, all those people likely retired. Few people were around to remember why they wanted the rough belt. And if they did remember, they might have thought they could try and run calculations to fix it.
@@lazydictionary Eh, I think it is probably the latter. I highly doubt top tier engineers working for F1 teams don't understand or know about these concepts. They probably just thought they knew better and could account for the variables in their calculations. They possibly had pressure put on them by Mercedes to keep costs and complexity down as well. Who knows though.
I have a sneaking suspicion MBA style folks like Toto are to blame
That was an excellent lesson, thanks. But long story short..the whole time that Sir Lewis was telling them that something was off (because HE felt in driving the car) and they kept telling him (sit down we know what we're doing)... in fact they were f'ing up.
Two in vid ads and two UA-cam ads and I gave up at 11min
Think it’s bad now? Look into UA-cam about to roll out ads on paused videos, as well as targeting ad blockers
I mean you could always pay for YT Premium I suppose if ad free is really your thing and it’s a deal breaker watching otherwise free content with a smattering of ads? Free choice is yours.
Premium absolutely worth the cost ….equivalent to a coffee or two per week…so far.
Get premium, support your creators directly
brave browser or ublock origin, will never see a youtube ad again
As a Future Aerodynamicist for the FERRARI F1 TEAM(my dreams) the term "Air Flow Sandwich" sounds delicious
hope the contract comes with a good therapist
After this video I appreciate the descriptor "deliciously complicated." That alone was worth the watch (everything else was great too).
I came to write a similar comment. You could hear the passion in his voice as he was saying it. Good stuff
Thanks. I was only wondering the other day if wind tunnels have evolved to allow for pitch & yaw etc. the other week!
love all the weird bot comments
They never disssapoint
It was a great video with great insides!
haha they come into an f1 video like "WOAH MY BOYFRIEND WANTS TO BLOG LIKE THIS, GREAT CONTENT GUYS"
Just what a bot would say
So many ads
If only something like fluidjobs existed 5yrs ago when I graduated, I would maybe be somewhere completely different than I am now... But where I'm moving, there is sadly very few to none motorsport entities, and remote jobs are not quite numerous in the industry.
Thanks to all the team for the video!
It would be great to see this kind of wind tunnel testing done on the Rally 1 WRC cars to understand their sideways grip and also how they jump.
That Conveyor-Belt moving @180 is *nuts* Pretty cool you can also Steer too
I have a masters in aero and all these principles are pretty basic and we learn them in year 1-2 of school. This won’t be where Mercedes messed up, it will be far more complex.
go to 9 min to save the "build up"
Your fluid mechanics lecture was more than all the classes I've attended in my college
Excellent visual explanation of the differences between laminar and turbulent fluid flow.
amazing that this channel has 1.27m subscribers but the contents are mostly just touching the surface of basic engineering and technologies.
The contractor I worked for in ‘96 built the wind tunnel for Reynard here in Indianapolis… very interesting indeed….
you did two midroll ads before 7 minutes? Bro, I gotta leave. I'm not hear for more commercials than a f1 production.
Just skip forward with the tap of a finger it’s not hard
Fast forward. How’s he supposed to earn a living doing this for free on UA-cam???
I get why it’s important that the wind tunnel is as smooth and steady as possible, however, that isn’t close to how wind works in real life. So the data may look favourable in the smooth wind tunnel, but they don’t see how the downforce is affected in the buffeting winds outside; which could drastically change the effectiveness of their downforce.
Important to have consistent flow so the only variable you are changing is the geometries of the model
Wonderful video! 👏👏
So the ATR allocation did its job perfectly
Doesn’t explain why red bull did well
@@lolomgwtfbbqqqq Adrian Newey doesn't need a wind tunnel. He draws on his drafting table and his mind simulates the airflow.
@@lolomgwtfbbqqqq they did a wrong upgrade in Barcelona 2023 apparently, when they had the least time and even less with the penalty, so yes it affected them as well
@@NeumannKlaus you're seriously going to reference 2023? The year when redbull won every single race except 1?
@@lolomgwtfbbqqqq bro go read some articles, im not just talking shit, what did you think? and if that doesnt convince you, just look only one year later for the obvious effect
I love that you don't overly water this down, so good to have more in depth videos
Just on a completely different note, my boi Red Bull still rocking a World War wind tunnel
More of a Cold war era wind tunnel, that has since had 2 major component upgrades too
@@into_the_void It still nearly falls apart, google mk7 redbull windtunnel, ofcourse they use modern equip, but only modern equip that fits
It was used to design the RAF's Tornado fighter plane
@@quadrantalerror1121
Not the Spitfire?? 🙂
This is one of the more captivating videos recently. Really nice story telling and lead in to the conclusion. It was really enjoyable.
So after all the Mercedes instigated politics of 2022 peaking at Baku, all they had to do was raise the ride height?? It's almost as if Merc were simply trying to get rules changed to suit their needs. Who'd have thought!
Witch they did and screwed the intent of the rules, with was better car following
All that printing Toto did and he still ended up having to change the fucking car
Personally, I found it telling that off-track, Mercedes focused engineering and money on making Project One work, a vehicle based on 2016 engines and aero and at the same time, Adrian Newey was working on the Valkyrie which uses Ground Effect to such great effect.
I'm not calling that cheating - I just think it showed the man never quit thinking about the new challenges and lessons. It also shows that Mercedes were looking back and not to the future.
I read somewhere that the new RB-17 Hypercar actually showcases some of the new technology that will be on F1 cars from 26 - including Active Aerodynamics.
the regulations doesn't help in actual innovations. all the teams have to innovate around the regulation by looking into loopholes. Once you have something innovative, that will becomes illegal soon.
Skip to 15:30 to get to the point of the video and skip a repetitive repeat of what "porpusing" is.
People like you keep UA-cam cool. Thank you
WHAT, they limit the times they can do research???????!!!!!!! Thats nuts
Paraphrasing, yes, they limit (very expensive) wind tunnel time and thus money. Same money = more equal chances more level playing field.
There are limits on Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) generally cadence fidelity. 25 Tflops I think depending on the last season manufacturer position.
@@l.d.t.6327who cares how level the playing field is though??
@@disgruntledwookie369 “who cares” -> not me.
Interesting, so they're trying to limit throw money at the problem until there is no problem. Thats awesome.
I Studied Mech Eng at University in the early seventies and the only two modules I really enjoyed were Fluid Mechanics and Software Engineering (this was before IT based degrees). I went off to a career in IT with IBM when many of my fellow students went off to join the likes of Rolls Royce (Aero-engines). It was early in the days of Fluid Mechanics. Videos like this interest me a lot and make me wonder where my life would have gone had I chosen Fluid Dynamics rather than IT as a career.
19 minutes long for a point that can be conveyed in 1 minute.
"How Wind Tunnels Are Used by F1 Teams" would be a more fitting title
I‘m sure you know all the basics of aerodynamics to understand the conclusion. For all orhers it is important to understand WHY the road surface has this influence
One of the F1 commentators who is worth listening to. Thanks Scott.
This was a good thing. No sport should have such dominance that it eliminates any competition.
It shouldn't be artificial tho
F1 is an engineering championship, with the budget cap in place let the most efficient and best engineers win
@@mrbungle3310 caps aren't artificial. It forces you to be better, not just spend more. Before all of these caps, the wealthiest teams were the best teams.
What about real Madrid's?
Whenever they are not winning is such a bleep in the system I suppose?😂😂
Are you joking, look what’s happened since ? Another team is dominating so surly we would have been better off with a strong Mercedes?
WHAT A TOPIC!!!! F1 AERODYNAMICS!!!! YESSS!!! Actually, I was talking with one of my peers engineers of my work about the MB F1 that is the Power Unit Supplier for McLaren and Williams F1 and I was saying what Aerodynamics was so important in F1 and I used the comparison between McLaren and MB F1 cars… Using the same Power Unit and look what McLaren was capable to do with the Aerodynamics upgrades….
That’s what I love F1 but specially, AERODYNAMICS!!! And @Driver61 and Scott Mansell bring to us!!!
So, BIG CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU SIR SCOTT MANSELL Sir Williem Toet! Big Fan of Mr. Williem Toet!!! I have been following him since late 80’s….
Turbulent flow isn't that hard to predict, to be honest. The part that really makes it difficult is when you have a laminar flow that transitions to turbulent, because that transition is unsteady. Because it's unsteady and cars depend so much on flow conditioning, that sometimes it's better to simply induce the turbulence yourself. Sometimes consistent but lower energy flow works better than inconsistent but potentially higher energy flow. Better the devil you know, than the one you don't type of thing.
That's so true. In chemical engineering and design you either stay trully laminar or stay the ?#&#^ away from the transient region in developed turbulent.
kind of sacrificial turbulent flow, if you will.
...NEWEY ALL THE way WAS MASTER....OF *_CHEATING_*
.....FIND PHOTOS OF RB'S WIND TUNNEL OF PRE 2022 SEASON....I CAN prove THEY CHEATED
....HOW??....WELL,TO FIND OUT ABOUT GROUND EFFECT AND PORPOISING,MODEL MUSTVE BEEN HELD only FOR THE WHEELS,AND THEY must SPIN FREELY AS WELL TO CATCH THAT DIFFERENT FLOW FROM ROAD SURFACE.......
.....IF IT WAS HELD JUST LIKE ALL OTHERS.......NO way NEWEY COULDVE DO anything AGAINST BOUNCING,GOT that?? *_N O T H I N G_* ....HE JUST COULDVE GUESS THAT THIS WILL HAPPEN.........BUT HE DID not BOTHER THANK TO HE DEVELOPED A SECRET SOLUTION RIGHTS ON WHICH HE TOOK AWAY AT MIAMI GP......
.....KNOW WHICH?? *_ACTIVE SUSPENSION_* )))))
.................STOP BLAME MERCEDES......JUST stop...THEYRE GOOD GUYS......EVEN WHEN THEY WERE KINDA bad.........
The same principle is used on the leading edge root extensions you see on fighter aircraft, where they intentionally create a vortex near the wing root to force the air flowing over the wing a bit closer to the wing, which serves the quadruple purpose of creating a vortex of fast flowing air providing a bit of negative pressure which further increases lift at high angles of attack, delaying flow separation past the usual stall points, which improve low speed maneuverability and predictability of the air flowing over the wing at low speeds, and making the plane look cool as hell.
Some race cars also have vortex generators over convex portions of their exterior for the same purpose - it's better to trip the flow into turbulent flow at a predictable location than to have the transition point vary depending on many tiny factors, some of which are impossible to account for, such as the temperature of the surface or the amount of dirt that has built up on the car since it had last been washed.
@@kelly2631 You have to be careful with vorticity, since the phenomenon has tremendous amounts of hysteresis. That same hysteresis that delays separation during high AoA also causes drag, and once disturbed require more energy than the initial conditions to re-establish it to a previously stable state. Vorticity, like magnetism retains a memory of past vorticity.
The company I worked in the nineties made the control to get the road running with extreme high precision. Normally side control precision was well below 0.1mm. And tension even more accurate. High tech by itself, even looking so simple.
I learned a tremendous amount from this! Thank you for putting such excellent explainers up for us.
Great content for a technically minded fan. Loved hearing about some of the more detailed aspects of running a wind tunnel, and linking that to Merc's performance issues. A nice alternative to hearing Toto or Lewis giving their view of things, that is obviously from a substantially different perspective.
Rigorous and detailed engineering/physics dialog. Good on you! Could you add a piece about the actual changes to the sidepods, T-tray, and bottom plate throughout their engineering recovery from porposing. Go Hamiton!
"Deliciously complicated" 😂
10:30 siren
A brilliant video explaining some complex stuff so that even I think I understand. I now understand what a lamena flow wing is and some of the stuff my flying instructor tried to teach me about drag. Thank you
Not one but two in video ads? Dude
Now this is what I call a good quality content
Willem is my favorite guest of yours, Scott!
Fascinating video and a deliciously knowledgeable guest.
What I really didn't appreciate were the two baked-in ad segments. UA-cam Premium is expensive enough that I shouldn't need to sit through a forced ad segment, least of all two of them. And with one of them not even having a progress bar it's even worse.
Mercedes got used to throwing money at the problem until the cost cap regs arrived. During the 2017 season, they used to have parts that are tailored to specific tracks and outspent Ferrari and RedBull by tens of millions just to beat them.
Half what you’re saying is true. Yes they threw money at the car. But out spending Ferrari and even RB during those years isn’t true, if that I can assure you. Certainly not by “hundreds of millions”
Outspending Ferrari…ha
@@enyaliosares4301 It supposed to be Ferrari and RB but somehow I forgot to add RB in my comment lol. In 2017 they outpsent Ferrari and RB by $56M and $68M respectively. Not hudreds yeah but half hundred million dollars is no small change either
@@j.s3300 in 2017 they did by $56M.
How's life post newey at RB going
I liked your video, it was informative. But you showed some confusion around the term "transition" region or area. Your graphics show the transition region correctly. It is a region between early laminar flow region and the later turbulent flow region. It is just a small slice of the boundary layer. All viscous flows will have a boundary layer when flowing over a surface, but if the Reynolds number is low enough, then the flow may stay laminar and there will be no transition region at all.
At 7:40 you describe the boundary layer, but call it the transition area. And at 8:07 you say "This whole area of transition is the boundary layer." The boundary layer and the transition region are two very different things. A boundary layer occurs across the entire length of the surface.* The transition region is generally just a small portion of the boundary layer -- starting some distance behind the leading edge of the surface (as laminar flow ends), and ending a little further back (as turbulent flow is fully established).
One way to think about it is the boundary layer is more about what is happening perpendicular to the flow -- for example, "the boundary layer is 10 mm thick there". The transition region is more about what's happening parallel to the flow -- for example "The transition region starts 200 mm back from the leading edge".
*Note: I said "boundary layer occurs across the entire length of the surface". Some people might argue that if separation of the flow occurs (i.e., detached flow), then after separation it shouldn't be called a boundary layer any more.
its cool to see somebody doesn't totally agreed with the valuable information in the video. i also want to share my negative review. those highest paid formula 1 engineers are not really understand what's going on with their car. i am not saying adrian newey, he is probably the only guy that knows but other engineers doesn't understand what he knows. otherwise there won't be any midfielder teams or back marker team. my experience came from flying aircraft, very boring work. Racing is more fun because you can feel the speed and the rush. Simply said, mercedes had bigger sponsors after they 'guessed' it right and they can throw more money into guessing it more right. until budget cap hits, all the engineers needed more catering budget to improve their skill of guessing it right. Even the biggest bug in formula 1 is over-engineering. Norris hitting the wall in singapore proves that all those tiny airflow pieces in the body parts doesn't contribute to 0.1s gain or lost. The funniest Willem said in this video is 1:19 simulation of mini grand prix, i wanted to point out if there is only one car in the race track as what you are doing in the wind tunnel, that's not racing, that's just driving. A grand prix is probably a 20 cars with Turbo Engine moving very close to each other fighting for clean air to get the peak performance. unless you can put 20 high revving turbo charged 1:1 f1 into the wind tunnels, that's a better simulations. in a nutshell formula 1 teams are just doing what they can and hope it works out. and some times it does sometimes it doesn't.
@@chadgtr34 Whenever you are working on the cutting edge, engineering is as much about how fast you can learn as it is about what you already know. Better financing helps teams learn faster. I'm not saying expertise is not important. Even with all our computers and wind tunnels there is still a lot of art in aerodynamic design. A highly experienced artist/engineer would be very valuable.
You are correct that in a crowded field of cars, the air isn't going to be moving smoothly like in a wind tunnel. But when doing practical testing (i.e., wind tunnel), you can't possibly run even a small number of the possible permutations that might occur in the real world. Simulating more than even a small number of the possible situations is probably going to be taxing for computers.
Because computational fluid dynamics still doesn't capture all the nuances of actual air flow, wind tunnel testing is still valuable. It's not my area of expertise, but I'm sure there is a lot of back-and-forth between computer simulations and wind tunnel testing. For example, a number of things can be tried in the computers and the promising ones can be verified in the wind tunnel. Or, the wind tunnel data can be used to tweak the parameters used in the computers to get the computer output to more closely match the measured values. Neither can do everything, but they are both valuable tools.
As a college student of aviation engineering, I'm quite curious of why ppl outside the aerospace industry seems *never truly know what is the boundary layer* , even when their machines could have the similar scale, speed of incoming airflow, and Re nunmbers as an aircraft will be.
Like Ferrari's S-Duct on SF23 last year, and the narrow gap in RB20's undercut tunnel. The moment I saw both of them, my brain was yelling "boundary layer diverter", but many ppl seems like just don't understand what they were for, even in some "technical" blogs or podcasts.
*Plus:* there's another problem that made Mercedes (and, to be honest, everyone on the grid except Newey) can't find the serious problem of porpoising - the maximum moving speed of model in the tunnel. The car model is not just ride on the ground like what their full-scale reference will do, but instead being loaded via the vertical arms. That basically means the car will be "hanged" just right above the belt, so of course it won't show any evidence of porpoising.
And, even if the team already knew the porpoising will be a problem, they will still won't be able to simulated this effect in the tunnel - the maximum moving speed of the arm (and the model) is only 1/10 of the actual porpoising frequency!
Are you on the spectrum?
hey yo! not a aero guy, but if they could read graphs on roll pitch yaw, wouldn't that be sufficient for any detects on porpoising? Also, it might be scaling down as well
Fellow chemical engineer here we are basically taught about BL first thing in our fluid mechanics course in 2nd year.
"As a student of a very specific field of study, I'm quite curious why people outside of said specific field of study don't understand the true definition of a specific parameter within my specific industry" 🙄
So you understand everything a neurosurgeon says?
Thank you very much for the excellent educational content. I am more knowledgeable about F1 aerodynamics now than I was 20 minutes ago.
Thank you so much!
This video could have been one minute long
But then two mid-roll ads couldn't be justified
Fantastic video, the best on aerodynamics easy to understand that I’ve seen. Subscribed.