As a composites nerd, I'd really like to see a more detailed video of them actually making parts. It's a lot of work to make even a simple mold, and these wings may be the most complicated composite parts manufactured.
Perhaps maybe someone like a Race Car Replicas or the people who make the display cars would be allowed to show us these processes more clearly and in-depth? Seeing the topic of this video I was super excited to see how all the separate pieces are assembled to become a full front wing - however watching this video we learn all the steps involved but this video doesn't seem to contain more substance than we had already by viewing a Sky TV pre-race broadcast. Sorry Scott - I know your hands are tied but maybe F1 teams aren't the best people to tell us about some topics due to the secrecy ??
@@gregcandy3630 been there. done that! But F1 wings are infinitely more complicated. Like how much of it is made as a single piece, is there a foam core or hollow, etc.
@@fredygump5578 As fellow craftspersons, we naturally geek out on how things are made - but we often don’t see the team of intellectual property lawyers working in the background. They assess every 'discovery' made along the way (individual or collective) that qualifies as novel or patentable. Besides this, they would also assess production techniques that fall under 'trade-secrets' which to my surprise is actually a legal term/category. Alpine own this I.P. and it's understandable that they keep this away from the 'public domain’ not to mention their F1 rivals. Us mere mortals will just have to make do with the bread-crumbs they allow to fall off their dinner table…
@@Corkyajax imagine you spent a lot of money to go grand prix, purchase ticket reserve hotels and you get a shout out from a driver, won't you feel happier ?
Without a doubt. Achieving those forms in CAD - supposedly using parametric modelling - with such detail and precision, looks a terrible nightmare. Then someone has to make those forms with precision for both sides. Nevermind everything else that was discussed. Teams should get their drivers involved in making them for their own cars, especially when they have a so called 'incident'. Then they'd be more appreciative and mindful, before deciding to recklessly bump into one another.!
Not really, there are many industries where many different engineering domains come together. F1 is in no way exceptional in that regard and the engineers also aren't "the best in the world", as it's a nonsensical statement.
This channel has definitely gone up a gear in 2024. I can't wait to see what's in store for 2025. Thank you to everyone at Driver61 for delivering us such informative and entertaining content.
I work within the F1 industry and supply AM/ 3d printed wind tunnel parts as well as AM/3d metal parts , it's great to see these parts actually attached to the wings in situ , don't usually get the chance to see the whole assembly, great video , loved the brakes and gearbox videos to , if you're ever in Scotland I'm sure we could show you some valuable content regarding the technology behind 3d printing in the F1 industry ! Great video , subbed 👍🏻
About the CFD runs. Do the teams do the CFD runs on a special FIA remote server? If so what software? And whats to stop a team from sending off the CAD model to do CFD on a local machine or even an offsite secret machine and get a few extra runs in?
I worked in aerospace. We had a conference call with the Red Bull guys. They drive a simulator during the race and can remodel a wing if it loses a portion and the simulation driver can experience what the real driver is experiencing. They told us that they can make new composite parts while qualifying in time for the race.
4:06 not sure anyone else is noticing that this wind tunnel model car is not from this year and now from 2023. I am not sure how and why but I believe this footage is of the next year's alpine car just by looking at completely different front wing concept
There is no way they’d leak any concepts from next year. It’ll be a test mule footage for a few years back likely with concepts that never worked or are out of date.
They haven't even started designing the 2025 car yet. By the rules they can't even start till Jan. 1. Just sayin' (Who knows if this design ever made it to the track. Could be a failed design test... lots of those... lots of testing.)
I would argue that the sure the front wing might be the most important aero feature of an F1, but in this rule set, since 2022, I'd say the floor might only be a tiny tiny bit behind.
4:09 that's the first time im hearing about all the teams using the same wind tunnel, you must've misunderstood him. he was talking about different groups of the same team, not different teams
You're right, but some teams do share their wind tunnels, like Ferrari with Haas and Sauber. Aston will be using Mercedes until the end of this year. McLaren used to use Toyota's until they switch to theirs earlier this year
Great insight here, Scott. Of course, as we’ve seen - even damage to the front wing has little if any result to lap times. Course specific for sure, but all that work! I wonder how they feel during crash tests- oy!!
it'd be neat if an f1 team did a promo where they took everything out of the car that wasn't absolutley neccessary for it to be able to drive at any speed.
Fairly basic explanation that has been done several times over the decades. Would have liked to see more of the manufacturing, assembly, and design decisions: like the sensor integration, the foam/honeycomb cores or 100% layers (when, where, why, and how those are chosen and used), ply orientation and weave decisions, when different types of composites are used (like kevlar), and the metal part integration. Few people seem to talk about that, the interface and assembly of CF/Kevlar/Flax/etc and metal brackets/bolts/threads/etc. So much to consider with stresses, flexing, thermal expansion, and galvanic corrosion. Would be nice to hear them talk about it a little more. And also about the recycling or end of life aspect. How do they cut down on costs and what happens after a crash or a part becomes obsolete (all the spares and molds)? Lots more detail I was expecting, but still good video. Thanks.
Not possible in a 16 minute video, but I woud also be interested. Before composite elements existed, I did the structural design of Specialized 3 spoke carbon-epoxy bicycle wheel, that used the rtm mfg process, and tsai wu failure criterion.
This channel is fairly for the mass audience. So most stuff have to be simplified. Also, teams wouldn't share their current progress or workflow to hide any clues from their competitors
Yes expansion and contracting rates but mostly because of autoclave cycles. Easy to fill a curing cycle with parts set for 90psi rather than differing pressures between components
I see a lot of comments around F1 in general complaining about how the rear aero makes it harder for following cars to overtake etc. Could there be some regulations around the front wing that would reduce those issues, since, as you say, the front wing controls how the air flows over (and under?) entire car.
My guesstimation is that they're either forced to use specific CFD software that's too intense to run on common PC's or specific CFD software that must "call back"/DRM to FIA servers to let them know how many simulations are run.
There must be some sort of logging happening with the FIA. Imo the potential for rules "interpretation" here is potentially pretty lucrative. +1 would make interesting video!
From the total perspective of F1 car aerodynamics the rear wing and the floor have much contribution to the car downforce, but the front wing role is shaping the airflow around the car.
If the car has med to high speed cornering issues, like Max with understeer, the front wing can be trimmed to increase downforce up front, reducing understeer.
licence tokens is one way. When you purchase a sofware with floating liences you can monitor at any time how many users are connected. Or you purchase licences for single computers and give the FIA the access to monitor the computers logging history. Building access is also logged and can be requested by the FIA like during. Or more likely monitored calculation servers, as the power needed is not accessible to a regular desk computer. But it is tricky, how can you know if an Adrian Newey is running a team of 5 engineers on a separated facility with his consulting firme that he pays with its own millions of salary ? The real question is how the FIA can properly enforce restrictions with 10 teams of 1000 people when they do not have the money to pay for professional track personel. LM is making the dollars, not the FIA.
I think they lease time on a fia super computer that runs it. That’s how other industries use super computers that are needed for fluid dynamic calculations.
For the level and scale of fidelity required for the simulation you couldn’t just run it of a home computer- it needs a very expensive custom supercomputer for the processing power. Hence it’s not a difficult ask for the FIA to ask teams for the request records and use times etc. Could a different supercomputer and CFD license be used with another companies help? Yes of course it could, but the ramifications of getting caught doing this would likely lead to disqualification as it’s unsportsmanlike and im sure F1 teams aren’t a fan of involving other people and companies in a dodgy scheme. Although I’m sure there are many grey areas and loopholes available to maximize the time allowed that are being used. They’ll have jobs fully focused on the optimization of the software to reduce the time so they can be more efficient with their allocated time and go from digital mockup design to track as fast as possible.
imagine if these technologies, materials amd knowledge were available to a country in 1940 . The fighter planes would have been unbelievable even without jet propulsion. Its amazing
Great channel. Maybe you can help me? I'm trying to find out what the small pneumatic fans the pit crew use to chill the divers in the sitting in the cars in the garage are called? Or a source of supply. I bet they're pricey. But I could really use one at my job. Thanks in advance.
I am lucky enough to own a quarter panel on the Renault RS19, (race used). Would you have any idea to find out more information about it based on the.serial number off the part? I'd love to have a clear idea of what races it was used in etc.
I dreamt of being an F1 engineer until this video. This is clearly nothing but stress. Every single time I'm like oh what if they did this, well they thought of that and made sure it's not allowed.
Well, they know they're not gonna win any races. Might as well reveal their technology, not that anyone needs to copy it since other teams know it's useless
Just thinking out loud here. Could you reverse the cfd process? Meaning you know what airflow you want to achieve, and then could make a model prediction based upon that?
@@kevink2315I disagree. It is true that 10x10=25x25=50x2, but it is possible to feed a parametric model to an FEA (I haven't tried CFD), setup some levels of freedom in some parameters and optimize towards s specific target. With FEA you can ask to minimize the stress in one specific area, I imagine with CFD you could ask to minimize the turbulence in a specific area while maximizing the downforce, by allowing to change some parameter values. The software would run hundreds of simulations and find out the best configuration. Perhaps that's what one run is, it would be nice to know.
Strange, I thought the FLOOR is the most important aero part of the car. Without the floor you will fly off every corner regardless of the front or rear wings. It is the most important for tweaking the steering of the car to make it pointy or smooth. Too much wing = oversteer, not enough wing = understeer.
@@z4k1_zaki65 That It isn't it's main purpose at all. The wing directs airflow UP over the tires to increase drag reduction. Watch an F1 car in a wind tunnel with smoke, you will see air is forced upwards over the wheels and driver, not directly to the floor. They also control how the car corners at any speed to eliminate understeer. Then the air left over from the bottom two blades of the front wing, it is pulled into the floor via the vertical blade winglets leading to the floor. Without those blades, the wing would not be able to control airflow to the floor at all, as it would push air upwards over the driver. So while yes, it does partially lead to the floor, it is a minor component in the overall aero capabilities of the car as a whole.
9:21 7 days? So if, during a race weekend a design flaw is found, not structural that would cause the wing to fail, but something that is impacting performance by a large amount, and the next race is next weekend, they would have to keep using the wing design with the flaw for the next race once you take into account time to change the design in CAD and test etc, it could even be a couple of races?
Interesting, that they use carbon fiber molds. I was at Northrop years ago and I was working under a engineer that want to use carbon fiber tooling for certain parts because of the CTE of Carbon fiber.
I think its cool that they are so deeply engineered, but if only the teams would stop designing them to hurt the competitor's car's aerodynamics. I don't know if there is a way to put that in the rules while also giving the teams enough freedom to use a bunch of variable designs
I'm never sure how the limits on wind tunnel use or number of CFD runs are observed, who's monitoring these things, and why couldn't a model be taken to a different wind tunnel or CFD computer, I presume they're not all owned by F1 teams?
There is either an FIA official on hand and every single element that goes into the wind tunnel, the people present everything is recorded such that it's not impossible to cheat but the lengths you would have to go to and the possible punishment disincentives most teams. Not saying it's impossible but when you hear how rigorous the FIA takes the process it's pretty unlikely you get to cheat the system
@@Oreolorun FIA officials are not physically on hand at each team, but they do have full remote access to monitor CFD and WT Runs, and the ability to request further access and make site visits.
Just a thought. I just watched your wind tunnel video. Would there be any advantage to putting golf ball like dimples on certain surfaces of the car? To add downforce or reduce drag.
looks like high tech, but you can make lighter and stronger parts from unidirectional carbon, this woven prepreg is inferior. also the presure in autoclave is way lower than in the hydraulic press.
I did the structural design of a composite bicycle wheel, using the Tsai-Woo failure critiria and FEA. You can't replicate the orthotropic properties of a woven fabric using layers of high stiffness uni's. I did use unidirectional patches where the strain was directional and stiffness was critical. A hydraulic press was used because it was a RTM process .. it had nothing to do with pressure at the composite.
@@kevink2315 I do not waste time with any theories, I produce stuff like snowboards, windsurf masts, fins from multiaxial uni carbom and use them. when they are made from woven cloth they are completely useless bland toys. when I press something properly by 100 tons, I get fiber to resin ratio about 70-80 %.
@@johndoe-bu7vt I stand corrcted, thanks. Multiaxial uni-layers did not exist in '89 when I did the wheel, wish they were. But in the F1 front wing application, no multi ton hydraulic press was used.
F1 Carbon fiber is being cut with an industrial grade Cricut! 😀 Cricut F1, coming soon to a craft store near you.. Wait! the guy who does crash testing is named "Harmer?" How perfect is that?
I love how it says how F1 wings are made but then it’s an Alpine explanation. It’s like me posting a video on how football players train but then asking my 6yo.
@@lanty4546 You can easily simulate parts like this in CFD, FEM, BEM etc. on a mid-range gaming computer at home, just takes a little longer for each run.
@@iliketoast-q9b The runs you can make home use very low resolution meshes. Personal equipment will handle only so much polygons. This means that the results you get, no matter how long you leave it running, will have a big error margin. They might give you an idea of the general behaviour of the flow, but the numbers will not be nowhere near useful, given the subtle changes in performance that F1 engineers work with.
@@lanty4546 I've run high resolution FEM and BEM simulations myself at home and my machine is far from high-end, even for a gaming machine, all you need is enough RAM and that's pretty cheap these days. Like I said it takes a little longer, but for individual parts like the wing it wouldn't be an issue.
@@iliketoast-q9b What you call high resolution is simply extremely poor for the purpose we are talking about. In fact, there is a whole art behind meshing efficiently (denser in the volumes where changes are expected) so the mesh is maneagable but still able to provide good enough results. Also, fluids are extremely complex and the math models that support the simulations are only approximations, each with advantages and weak points. As I said, you can play with models home but will not be of much use.
How many times has this thumbnail changed already??? Everytime I see it pop up, it has a new thumbnail. Like, where's the one where you're just holding the front wing?
Move to the UK 😅 But seriously, study Engineering, preferably Automotive or Mechanical... if you want to get in on the business side of things, you could study Business, Law, etc.
Go to your local track and volunteer. Get to know the characters and find your niche. A vocation in Motorsports is a huge umbrella. What do you actually like and what role would you like to play? Figure that out, work your butt off and get a relevant degree like @Appetite says. Ultimately, the sport is so popular, you aren't getting in with just credentials, you gotta know people, and the right people need to know who YOU are. Step one: get off your phone and put yourself into sport in anyway you can.
Apple early to an internship. Theres a lot of them and they want young people who just started in college or are about to start. Dont wait until youre done with college or you will need a lot more qualifications and experience to even be considered
Hmm, don't think the designers, manufacturers, and engineers need tips like that. They kind of know what they're doing. Most hi-tech aren't close to F1 when it comes to details.
All that poking with dibbers and bothering about layering is about to become redundant with the new 3d carbon fibre printers that produce a singularly accurate product with significantly more strength. Just ask Mr Newey who is already onto it.
All those rules and restrictions are ridiculous...there should just be a maximum width, rounded edges so you can't cut an opponent's tire, and let the aerodynamicists run free!
Teams would probably still end up with similar looking cars tho cos there would probably only be 1 optimum design. And as others have pointed out, following and overtaking would be affected and every race would be as boring as the Monaco GP...
The thing F1 does not do is scout for Canadian farmboys to drive. The biggest problem is nepotism and citiots with money. Canadian farmboys been driving since 1946, and racing. Joe Clark is touted as a farmer, but to be a farmer in Scotland means you are wealthy. I grew up with buddy Tim, whom could drive in reverse at 70 mph down the highway and pass vehicles. Dad, ran a 1964 F100 6cyl to town, 13.5 miles in 9 minutes on curvy gravel roads. It took me until 1984 in a 1974 Colony Park Station Wagon with 460, 4bbl, to take that record down to 8 minutes. My 1966 Falcon Sport Coupe with 200 cid 6 with 120 hp, nor my 1966 Mustang with 312 cid with 1969 351W heads, dual 2.5 inch exhaust, 2bbl 500cfm carb, 2.80 rears, oil soacked clutch for slider. My Mustang never lost a street race: 1969 Chevelle 396, 1980's 400 cid trans am. My car did not spin. My Mustang could push hood high snow through the stubble fields. It also had a shaved flywheel - Garth , old school rodder, turning my flywheeel. It was all cracked and he took 20 lbs off it. I asked is that dangerous? He, said, no not at ur power and rpm. My SBF would spin up and produce enough power to beat many spinny cars in a city block.
It’s weird to me that auto racing has done everything possible to remove the actual auto as a variable. It’s almost like how you have to file your taxes even though the IRS knows what you owe. Why doesn’t the F1 org just build all the cars exactly the same themselves and call it driver racing?
Imagine be a williams engineer. 1 wing processed in a week and next week you need to make more because your drivers destroyed the car
Job security.
good practice
They probably got so good building wings for Maldonado, the implicit parts limit from the cost cap is a relative reprieve
Well, immagine that you have to build at least 5 just to destroy them for crash test.
They got a back order of at least 50 for sure😂
As a composites nerd, I'd really like to see a more detailed video of them actually making parts. It's a lot of work to make even a simple mold, and these wings may be the most complicated composite parts manufactured.
Me too, but a lot of this work is top secret.
Perhaps maybe someone like a Race Car Replicas or the people who make the display cars would be allowed to show us these processes more clearly and in-depth?
Seeing the topic of this video I was super excited to see how all the separate pieces are assembled to become a full front wing - however watching this video we learn all the steps involved but this video doesn't seem to contain more substance than we had already by viewing a Sky TV pre-race broadcast.
Sorry Scott - I know your hands are tied but maybe F1 teams aren't the best people to tell us about some topics due to the secrecy ??
The Easy Composites UA-cam channel has some great videos of simplified methods of composite wings and other structures being made
@@gregcandy3630 been there. done that! But F1 wings are infinitely more complicated. Like how much of it is made as a single piece, is there a foam core or hollow, etc.
@@fredygump5578 As fellow craftspersons, we naturally geek out on how things are made - but we often don’t see the team of intellectual property lawyers working in the background. They assess every 'discovery' made along the way (individual or collective) that qualifies as novel or patentable. Besides this, they would also assess production techniques that fall under 'trade-secrets' which to my surprise is actually a legal term/category. Alpine own this I.P. and it's understandable that they keep this away from the 'public domain’ not to mention their F1 rivals. Us mere mortals will just have to make do with the bread-crumbs they allow to fall off their dinner table…
Should've gone to the red bull team. I heard they *give* you wings.
Good one
Dad joke complete 😉
Dadassery indeed.
*groans*
The best dad joke👨
People hate Lewis for "back in the factory" phrase, but these guys really need a shout out for their hard work.
You *had* 44 likes 🫢
I work for one of the teams in the factory, the shout outs from our drivers is always appreciated
Nah, its because he says that the crowd has been great and he loves them.
@@Corkyajax imagine you spent a lot of money to go grand prix, purchase ticket reserve hotels and you get a shout out from a driver, won't you feel happier ?
@@mrdllo1731 hmm nope, because it aint sincere. He does it to every race weekend (if he wins).
If you ever feel useless, just remember Aston Martin spends thousands of hours building a car just so Stroll can destroy it 2 laps later
They'll give cheap version for stroll and the really good version for Alonso to save money
Or beach in gravel
1:28 one of the most complex wing design 💀
Wing in a wing on a wing
@@Very_Grumpy_Cat Heard you like wings on your wings dawg, so we hooked you up with some wings on your wings dawg!
Without a doubt. Achieving those forms in CAD - supposedly using parametric modelling - with such detail and precision, looks a terrible nightmare. Then someone has to make those forms with precision for both sides. Nevermind everything else that was discussed.
Teams should get their drivers involved in making them for their own cars, especially when they have a so called 'incident'. Then they'd be more appreciative and mindful, before deciding to recklessly bump into one another.!
Front Wings are the Masterpiece of an F1 car. I would have one in my room if I ever could!!
The level of detail and interweaving of engineering domains makes F1 exceptional.
F1 is total bollocks. They need a cheat flap just to overtake and fireworks at the end to
make it look like something spectacular just happened.
Lol
Exceptional that they can’t create a better car
@Japs_Eye_Of_The_Tigerbro is stuck in 2022😂, and he’s talking bout the level of engineering
Not really, there are many industries where many different engineering domains come together. F1 is in no way exceptional in that regard and the engineers also aren't "the best in the world", as it's a nonsensical statement.
I really love these technical behind the scenes videos. F1 is so fascinating. Great video! More please!
This channel has definitely gone up a gear in 2024.
I can't wait to see what's in store for 2025.
Thank you to everyone at Driver61 for delivering us such informative and entertaining content.
I work within the F1 industry and supply AM/ 3d printed wind tunnel parts as well as AM/3d metal parts , it's great to see these parts actually attached to the wings in situ , don't usually get the chance to see the whole assembly, great video , loved the brakes and gearbox videos to , if you're ever in Scotland I'm sure we could show you some valuable content regarding the technology behind 3d printing in the F1 industry ! Great video , subbed 👍🏻
Wow, honestly this made my day. Thank you!
This makes me unbelievably happy that Pierre was able to keep these masterpieces intact.
lol
But Renault wasn't 😂
Any formula 1 car that makes it on to a track at a weekend is a work of art and work
So would you say that Williams' drivers are destroyers of art or creators of it, as with all their crashing, more art has to be produced? :P
About the CFD runs. Do the teams do the CFD runs on a special FIA remote server? If so what software? And whats to stop a team from sending off the CAD model to do CFD on a local machine or even an offsite secret machine and get a few extra runs in?
7:03 the fabled car 46, driven by charlis leclamilton
I worked in aerospace. We had a conference call with the Red Bull guys. They drive a simulator during the race and can remodel a wing if it loses a portion and the simulation driver can experience what the real driver is experiencing. They told us that they can make new composite parts while qualifying in time for the race.
4:06 not sure anyone else is noticing that this wind tunnel model car is not from this year and now from 2023. I am not sure how and why but I believe this footage is of the next year's alpine car just by looking at completely different front wing concept
The front wing kinda looks like the front wing Gasly got at Qatar and Abu dhabi
There is no way they’d leak any concepts from next year. It’ll be a test mule footage for a few years back likely with concepts that never worked or are out of date.
To me it looks like the 2022 front wing they had
@@robertdevaldit is the 2022 model
They haven't even started designing the 2025 car yet. By the rules they can't even start till Jan. 1. Just sayin'
(Who knows if this design ever made it to the track. Could be a failed design test... lots of those... lots of testing.)
Thanks for the information you've been providing Scott, and Happy New Year from Ontario Canada !
I would argue that the sure the front wing might be the most important aero feature of an F1, but in this rule set, since 2022, I'd say the floor might only be a tiny tiny bit behind.
4:09 that's the first time im hearing about all the teams using the same wind tunnel, you must've misunderstood him. he was talking about different groups of the same team, not different teams
You're right, but some teams do share their wind tunnels, like Ferrari with Haas and Sauber. Aston will be using Mercedes until the end of this year. McLaren used to use Toyota's until they switch to theirs earlier this year
It's not just insane engineering, it's insane restrictions, particularly on the amount of computing time AND computing power used for CFD.
Great insight here, Scott. Of course, as we’ve seen - even damage to the front wing has little if any result to lap times. Course specific for sure, but all that work! I wonder how they feel during crash tests- oy!!
Iv worked in composites for 20 years and would love to do this
it'd be neat if an f1 team did a promo where they took everything out of the car that wasn't absolutley neccessary for it to be able to drive at any speed.
Miss the days when teams had more freedom with their designs
Fairly basic explanation that has been done several times over the decades. Would have liked to see more of the manufacturing, assembly, and design decisions: like the sensor integration, the foam/honeycomb cores or 100% layers (when, where, why, and how those are chosen and used), ply orientation and weave decisions, when different types of composites are used (like kevlar), and the metal part integration. Few people seem to talk about that, the interface and assembly of CF/Kevlar/Flax/etc and metal brackets/bolts/threads/etc. So much to consider with stresses, flexing, thermal expansion, and galvanic corrosion. Would be nice to hear them talk about it a little more. And also about the recycling or end of life aspect. How do they cut down on costs and what happens after a crash or a part becomes obsolete (all the spares and molds)? Lots more detail I was expecting, but still good video. Thanks.
Not possible in a 16 minute video, but I woud also be interested. Before composite elements existed, I did the structural design of Specialized 3 spoke carbon-epoxy bicycle wheel, that used the rtm mfg process, and tsai wu failure criterion.
This channel is fairly for the mass audience. So most stuff have to be simplified. Also, teams wouldn't share their current progress or workflow to hide any clues from their competitors
Wow. Absolute masterpieces of engineering
Yes expansion and contracting rates but mostly because of autoclave cycles. Easy to fill a curing cycle with parts set for 90psi rather than differing pressures between components
I see a lot of comments around F1 in general complaining about how the rear aero makes it harder for following cars to overtake etc. Could there be some regulations around the front wing that would reduce those issues, since, as you say, the front wing controls how the air flows over (and under?) entire car.
Great video scott!
How do they enforce the CFD limit? What's stopping them from taking the models home on a USB stick and running them there on other CFD software?
I think you have to show your work and prove how you came to the design conclusion.
My guesstimation is that they're either forced to use specific CFD software that's too intense to run on common PC's or specific CFD software that must "call back"/DRM to FIA servers to let them know how many simulations are run.
He needs to make an episode about this. Great question.
There must be some sort of logging happening with the FIA. Imo the potential for rules "interpretation" here is potentially pretty lucrative. +1 would make interesting video!
Pretty sure you need some pretty advanced hardware to run CFD models. Much more advanced than anyone will realistically have at home
From the total perspective of F1 car aerodynamics the rear wing and the floor have much contribution to the car downforce, but the front wing role is shaping the airflow around the car.
If the car has med to high speed cornering issues, like Max with understeer, the front wing can be trimmed to increase downforce up front, reducing understeer.
I'd love to see you analyze dirt racing and the different vehicle classes.
I stopped following f1 a few years ago, but still love watching how they go about doing things
all that time and tech into a motorsport that on the whole is very borring.
Very interesting video! Best looking wing ever? ….. Jordan 191 7-Up, Michael Schumacher 👍
How does the FIA monitor CFD usage? What's keeping aero engineers from running simulations on their home computers?
licence tokens is one way. When you purchase a sofware with floating liences you can monitor at any time how many users are connected. Or you purchase licences for single computers and give the FIA the access to monitor the computers logging history. Building access is also logged and can be requested by the FIA like during. Or more likely monitored calculation servers, as the power needed is not accessible to a regular desk computer.
But it is tricky, how can you know if an Adrian Newey is running a team of 5 engineers on a separated facility with his consulting firme that he pays with its own millions of salary ?
The real question is how the FIA can properly enforce restrictions with 10 teams of 1000 people when they do not have the money to pay for professional track personel. LM is making the dollars, not the FIA.
I think they lease time on a fia super computer that runs it. That’s how other industries use super computers that are needed for fluid dynamic calculations.
For the level and scale of fidelity required for the simulation you couldn’t just run it of a home computer- it needs a very expensive custom supercomputer for the processing power. Hence it’s not a difficult ask for the FIA to ask teams for the request records and use times etc.
Could a different supercomputer and CFD license be used with another companies help? Yes of course it could, but the ramifications of getting caught doing this would likely lead to disqualification as it’s unsportsmanlike and im sure F1 teams aren’t a fan of involving other people and companies in a dodgy scheme. Although I’m sure there are many grey areas and loopholes available to maximize the time allowed that are being used. They’ll have jobs fully focused on the optimization of the software to reduce the time so they can be more efficient with their allocated time and go from digital mockup design to track as fast as possible.
0:34 Think of this when Lance Stroll smashes his car into the barrier for the thousandth time.
Makes me wanna know how much Lawrence Stroll earns
Why not start by placing the first ply on the mold in a vacuum so you get rid of any potential bridging?
I was hoping some detail like if they use Von mises for stress calculations or eg if they use the Goodman or solderberg line for fatigue
imagine if these technologies, materials amd knowledge were available to a country in 1940 . The fighter planes would have been unbelievable even without jet propulsion. Its amazing
I will always feel way worse now when I see a front wing get broken, the amount of work and time to build it is crazy
Thanks for sharing.
Great channel. Maybe you can help me?
I'm trying to find out what the small pneumatic fans the pit crew use to chill the divers in the sitting in the cars in the garage are called? Or a source of supply. I bet they're pricey. But I could really use one at my job. Thanks in advance.
I've really taken a shine to your channel. You've got your system down, and it's a pleasure to watch.
I think Alpine is the most open team when it comes to car design
That's marketing which is why you see only surface level knowledge
I am lucky enough to own a quarter panel on the Renault RS19, (race used). Would you have any idea to find out more information about it based on the.serial number off the part? I'd love to have a clear idea of what races it was used in etc.
I dreamt of being an F1 engineer until this video. This is clearly nothing but stress. Every single time I'm like oh what if they did this, well they thought of that and made sure it's not allowed.
Thx🎉
Alpine are really spilling the beans 🫘😂 ...thats good for us
Well, they know they're not gonna win any races. Might as well reveal their technology, not that anyone needs to copy it since other teams know it's useless
Just thinking out loud here. Could you reverse the cfd process? Meaning you know what airflow you want to achieve, and then could make a model prediction based upon that?
No, like FEA, CFD uses loads to find results. Example: if 10x10=100, what number combination results in 100 ?
@@kevink2315I disagree. It is true that 10x10=25x25=50x2, but it is possible to feed a parametric model to an FEA (I haven't tried CFD), setup some levels of freedom in some parameters and optimize towards s specific target. With FEA you can ask to minimize the stress in one specific area, I imagine with CFD you could ask to minimize the turbulence in a specific area while maximizing the downforce, by allowing to change some parameter values. The software would run hundreds of simulations and find out the best configuration.
Perhaps that's what one run is, it would be nice to know.
Strange, I thought the FLOOR is the most important aero part of the car. Without the floor you will fly off every corner regardless of the front or rear wings.
It is the most important for tweaking the steering of the car to make it pointy or smooth. Too much wing = oversteer, not enough wing = understeer.
The front wings determinds the airflow entering the floor.
@@z4k1_zaki65 That It isn't it's main purpose at all. The wing directs airflow UP over the tires to increase drag reduction. Watch an F1 car in a wind tunnel with smoke, you will see air is forced upwards over the wheels and driver, not directly to the floor. They also control how the car corners at any speed to eliminate understeer.
Then the air left over from the bottom two blades of the front wing, it is pulled into the floor via the vertical blade winglets leading to the floor. Without those blades, the wing would not be able to control airflow to the floor at all, as it would push air upwards over the driver. So while yes, it does partially lead to the floor, it is a minor component in the overall aero capabilities of the car as a whole.
9:21 7 days? So if, during a race weekend a design flaw is found, not structural that would cause the wing to fail, but something that is impacting performance by a large amount, and the next race is next weekend, they would have to keep using the wing design with the flaw for the next race once you take into account time to change the design in CAD and test etc, it could even be a couple of races?
As seen in this season, most team would just revert it back to the older spec until the upgrades are ready
10:14 What did he say? It sounds like "the front wings and see allot of temperature".
Interesting, that they use carbon fiber molds. I was at Northrop years ago and I was working under a engineer that want to use carbon fiber tooling for certain parts because of the CTE of Carbon fiber.
I think its cool that they are so deeply engineered, but if only the teams would stop designing them to hurt the competitor's car's aerodynamics. I don't know if there is a way to put that in the rules while also giving the teams enough freedom to use a bunch of variable designs
3:11 when said steer of the front wing. what rotation axis is he talking about
Only giving the trimmers a passing mention doesn’t do justice to the level of work they put into making these things as well.
Happy holidays to All
I'm never sure how the limits on wind tunnel use or number of CFD runs are observed, who's monitoring these things, and why couldn't a model be taken to a different wind tunnel or CFD computer, I presume they're not all owned by F1 teams?
There is either an FIA official on hand and every single element that goes into the wind tunnel, the people present everything is recorded such that it's not impossible to cheat but the lengths you would have to go to and the possible punishment disincentives most teams. Not saying it's impossible but when you hear how rigorous the FIA takes the process it's pretty unlikely you get to cheat the system
@@Oreolorun FIA officials are not physically on hand at each team, but they do have full remote access to monitor CFD and WT Runs, and the ability to request further access and make site visits.
So how can we know for sure the bigger teams not using some secret wind tunnels?
Just a thought. I just watched your wind tunnel video. Would there be any advantage to putting golf ball like dimples on certain surfaces of the car? To add downforce or reduce drag.
This is how redbull stays on top under the new cost caps.
Red bull gives you wings!
Why is there a cfd limitation?
looks like high tech, but you can make lighter and stronger parts from unidirectional carbon, this woven prepreg is inferior. also the presure in autoclave is way lower than in the hydraulic press.
I did the structural design of a composite bicycle wheel, using the Tsai-Woo failure critiria and FEA. You can't replicate the orthotropic properties of a woven fabric using layers of high stiffness uni's. I did use unidirectional patches where the strain was directional and stiffness was critical. A hydraulic press was used because it was a RTM process .. it had nothing to do with pressure at the composite.
@@kevink2315 I do not waste time with any theories, I produce stuff like snowboards, windsurf masts, fins from multiaxial uni carbom and use them. when they are made from woven cloth they are completely useless bland toys. when I press something properly by 100 tons, I get fiber to resin ratio about 70-80 %.
@@johndoe-bu7vt I stand corrcted, thanks. Multiaxial uni-layers did not exist in '89 when I did the wheel, wish they were. But in the F1 front wing application, no multi ton hydraulic press was used.
UD carbon is used in front wing components
Does the orientation of the pattern matter anymore in carbon fiber buildup?
If any teams want to run a scam with me I can run extra CFD testing on my ZX spectrum from home (I have the 48K ram pack!)
Bro, your computer is obsolete. I have a Commodore 64.
0:09 Looks like a Batmobile without the front wing.
Wish they could be smaller, I guess as long as it makes them bombproof in an accident I’ll see the reasoning.
Williams must have a separate shop running 24/7 dedicated to turning these out
chicos hay que mejorar el doblaje al español porque las oraciones se entrecortan bastante.
Genial excelente trabajo gracias
Felices fiestas y próspero año nuevo 2025
🎷🎻🪕🎸🏋️⛹️🤾🤸🍻🧞🔝📈💚💛♥️💜😈
the exact same process as aircraft composite wing parts.
what I do all day
9:33 Ferarri?
I was a carbon engineer for Marussia F1 for 2 years. Great job!
You should get together with that Wendover Productions guy 🤔
F1 Carbon fiber is being cut with an industrial grade Cricut! 😀 Cricut F1, coming soon to a craft store near you..
Wait! the guy who does crash testing is named "Harmer?" How perfect is that?
Derek Estroyer also went for the job, but narrowly missed out.
I love how it says how F1 wings are made but then it’s an Alpine explanation. It’s like me posting a video on how football players train but then asking my 6yo.
thanx from bigfoot territory ( pacific north west ) washington state usa
I'm sure they gloss over the bendy part.😅 now that I see it's alpine, nevermind😮😊
How can they stop people using more cfd cad runs? I can run that test with my autdesk account
Because the accuracy required to get relevant results can't be achieved on regular computers.
@@lanty4546 You can easily simulate parts like this in CFD, FEM, BEM etc. on a mid-range gaming computer at home, just takes a little longer for each run.
@@iliketoast-q9b The runs you can make home use very low resolution meshes. Personal equipment will handle only so much polygons.
This means that the results you get, no matter how long you leave it running, will have a big error margin. They might give you an idea of the general behaviour of the flow, but the numbers will not be nowhere near useful, given the subtle changes in performance that F1 engineers work with.
@@lanty4546 I've run high resolution FEM and BEM simulations myself at home and my machine is far from high-end, even for a gaming machine, all you need is enough RAM and that's pretty cheap these days. Like I said it takes a little longer, but for individual parts like the wing it wouldn't be an issue.
@@iliketoast-q9b What you call high resolution is simply extremely poor for the purpose we are talking about.
In fact, there is a whole art behind meshing efficiently (denser in the volumes where changes are expected) so the mesh is maneagable but still able to provide good enough results.
Also, fluids are extremely complex and the math models that support the simulations are only approximations, each with advantages and weak points.
As I said, you can play with models home but will not be of much use.
Mercedes solved there 2025 by having a front wing change in Monaco. The front wing flexibility is key to success
How many times has this thumbnail changed already??? Everytime I see it pop up, it has a new thumbnail. Like, where's the one where you're just holding the front wing?
4:14 "There's only one wind tunnel" No there isn't.. 🤨
Each team is restricted to a limited number of wind tunnels, typically just one.
if i want to work in f1 what steps can i take as a 17 year old from AUS
Move to the UK 😅 But seriously, study Engineering, preferably Automotive or Mechanical... if you want to get in on the business side of things, you could study Business, Law, etc.
He made video some time ago where he addresses your question. Also in this video's description there is some useful info.
Good luck
Go to your local track and volunteer. Get to know the characters and find your niche. A vocation in Motorsports is a huge umbrella. What do you actually like and what role would you like to play? Figure that out, work your butt off and get a relevant degree like @Appetite says. Ultimately, the sport is so popular, you aren't getting in with just credentials, you gotta know people, and the right people need to know who YOU are. Step one: get off your phone and put yourself into sport in anyway you can.
try to get into a formula student team at your university, a lot of F1 engineers started there
Apple early to an internship. Theres a lot of them and they want young people who just started in college or are about to start. Dont wait until youre done with college or you will need a lot more qualifications and experience to even be considered
Tip: use kevlar fabric ribs, instead of foam inside the winglets 😉
they only need to be substanially stiffer in the direction they need to push the air, so they are glorified swimming flippers tbh
Hmm, don't think the designers, manufacturers, and engineers need tips like that. They kind of know what they're doing. Most hi-tech aren't close to F1 when it comes to details.
All that poking with dibbers and bothering about layering is about to become redundant with the new 3d carbon fibre printers that produce a singularly accurate product with significantly more strength. Just ask Mr Newey who is already onto it.
All those rules and restrictions are ridiculous...there should just be a maximum width, rounded edges so you can't cut an opponent's tire, and let the aerodynamicists run free!
And then cars can't follow or overtake and the race is boring
@@qwertytrewq9870 As if overtaking is mind blowing now eh?
I'd add only a single plane wing. Keep it simple.
@@aravindhdeivag111 OK, then it would be harder to follow and overtake and even more boring
Teams would probably still end up with similar looking cars tho cos there would probably only be 1 optimum design. And as others have pointed out, following and overtaking would be affected and every race would be as boring as the Monaco GP...
Did anyone else think he was holding a giant Snickers at a glance?
6:33 “they call this FE, Finite Element Analysis”. Hmm, are you sure they don’t call it FEA like everybody else?
Don't teams have their own wind tunnels?
why is your voice 17 times louder than every person interviewed?
The thing F1 does not do is scout for Canadian farmboys to drive. The biggest problem is nepotism and citiots with money. Canadian farmboys been driving since 1946, and racing. Joe Clark is touted as a farmer, but to be a farmer in Scotland means you are wealthy. I grew up with buddy Tim, whom could drive in reverse at 70 mph down the highway and pass vehicles. Dad, ran a 1964 F100 6cyl to town, 13.5 miles in 9 minutes on curvy gravel roads. It took me until 1984 in a 1974 Colony Park Station Wagon with 460, 4bbl, to take that record down to 8 minutes. My 1966 Falcon Sport Coupe with 200 cid 6 with 120 hp, nor my 1966 Mustang with 312 cid with 1969 351W heads, dual 2.5 inch exhaust, 2bbl 500cfm carb, 2.80 rears, oil soacked clutch for slider. My Mustang never lost a street race: 1969 Chevelle 396, 1980's 400 cid trans am. My car did not spin. My Mustang could push hood high snow through the stubble fields. It also had a shaved flywheel - Garth , old school rodder, turning my flywheeel. It was all cracked and he took 20 lbs off it. I asked is that dangerous? He, said, no not at ur power and rpm. My SBF would spin up and produce enough power to beat many spinny cars in a city block.
WHat is the next type of auto racing that doesnt have so many rules? Might be time to check out a car that isnt so restricted.
One if these f1 teams need to hire me.. I think I'd be a strong asset to the team
Don't get the symmetrical limit, aren't all these rules to limit spending? Seems pretty counterproductive.
It’s weird to me that auto racing has done everything possible to remove the actual auto as a variable. It’s almost like how you have to file your taxes even though the IRS knows what you owe. Why doesn’t the F1 org just build all the cars exactly the same themselves and call it driver racing?
9:20 Good to see more women in the sport! 👏👏👏
My guy is reviewing Alpine's new tractors.
Great video but the long haired dude at the beginning is speaking Harry Kane level english