What is "Grimdark" and How It Keeps Me Away from Enjoying Warhammer
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- Опубліковано 7 лют 2025
- Join me as we delve into the idea of Grimdark and why that has a tendency to put me off from Warhammer. (Still love it tho).
(For legal reasons no Carmines were killed in the making of this video).
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Just gonna clarify because I feel the sentiment may have been missed in the video;
I still like Warhammer for what it is. I do not think Warhammer or any stories like it need to change. This is simply me sharing and expressing a sentiment I’ve had towards the concept of Grimdark for quite some time now. And as I’ve already seen in some comments, not a sentiment I share alone.
Warhammer is fantastic. It’s just got some baggage. And that’s okay. This is not a personal attack on your hobbies I’ve spent far too much cash on plastic toy soldiers to be able to go that route.
Stay Cool, Have Fun and Be Awesome. Buster Out.
@@Buster-McTunder Nah I understood but you have to have realized people are going to react to the title when it's worded like that, especially when it's counter to the actual point you made in the video.
Also you have to remember that there is a good portion of the current fan base that don't buy/paint/play/read Warhammer, all they know are UA-cam videos and don't understand the hobby. They will still tell you that your wrong though.
grimdark is good
Warhammer without the Grimdark element is like making tomato soup without the tomato.
Most definitely
Truer words have never been spoken
get that tomato out of there
I'll just have the soup thank you very much
@@WanderTheNomad I have a better idea. How about coming up with your own tomato-free soup instead of criticising a recipe already established and recognised by millions?
@@snowball700 no criticism here, I'll take the soup, without the tomato
I’ll repost a comment I made on another vid about Grimdark:
The essence of Grimdark is the phrase “To Rage against the dying of the Light”
Everything sucks, everyone’s fucked, but all it takes is that one solider that makes it through or that one squad that holds the line at all costs that can make it even a small iota better. The most noble aspect of humanity is our ability to live through even the worst thrown at us by an uncaring universe, be it through wit or pure tenacity.
Grimdark can only be dark in contrast to the light that it’s attempting to suffocate.
Perfect example of this is I have no mouth and I must scream with teds ensign especially. That exact feeling you’re describing is why I loved that book and it’s ending even though like warhammer it’s pretty bleak and hopeless
Yeah there's a sort of romanticism about it that a lot of people seem to miss: heroic last stands, the honor that comes from dutifully fighting to the end for your lost cause against horrifying abominations etc.
@@justjoshua5759 Yeah but the thing is that it has an ending. Unlike warhammer 40k and other grimdark universes. No ending.
@@doomguy9049none of us are missing it, it's just that heroic last stands mean little when what you are defending is grim and what you get if you win is also grim. Forever. There is no emotion in that for a lot of people.
@ It sounds like you recognize what I'm talking about intellectually even if it doesn't evoke the same feelings in you, which is fine and I'm not knocking you or anyone else for their personal tastes or what they enjoy about Warhammer 40k but not feeling "it" is what I meant by not "getting it".
It's not the grim dark that's the problem it's stagnant bad writing you can still have stagnant bad writing after losing the grim dark
Yes but stagnation is inherent to grimdark because ultimately nothing ever changes.
I am a strong believer that we need "Grim Dark" mixed into media. We become so accustomed to "the good guys winning" that anything else feels .. wrong. Grim dark shows us that the universe does not care and does not reward virtue. It rewards nothing at all, it is indifferent and more than likely isn't aware of us at all. You need both ends of the spectrum to appreciate one or the other.
Thats what makes 40k noble dark shit so great.
Its really fucked up, so basic kindness and good shit, makes it actually satisfying to watch
Bruh I have real life to show me the universe doesn't care. Why do I need the media I watch to show me the universe doesn't care.
It's fun in doses, a cool horror flick, or the extremism of 40K. But something like LOTR but Sauron wins is just dumb. The bad guys win in real life, why do people want the bad guys to win in fiction to.
@@jonathaniyere3203Good point, honestly.
@@jonathaniyere3203 You misunderstand. Sauron wins and its complete hell until they slowly but surely make everything good again
@@honkhonk8009 that's just lotr but longer and edgier. The entire point of the story is magic is fading away, the elves are abandoning middle earth, Sauron has amassed enough power secretly his victory is all but assured. Their only hope is a hail Mary secret mission done by people no one expects to accomplish anything. Because that's our irl fantasy. Your idea just extends an already long and dark story to make it longer and edgier for no reason.
Grimdark become more or less an excuse for bad writing. "Things ended bad because it's gRiMdArK and we're edgy" not because it's a logical conclusion and no consequeces or whatsoever.
There’s plenty of stories where the imperium wins but it’s usually a great cost, especially imperial guard stories
I don't think 40K should be thought of as a story, and more of as a setting.
"What happens if XXXX?" I don't know, why don't you grab a brush and a box of green stuff and show me?
That's a perfect explanation. GW needs to remember that. It's a setting, not a story.
@@jaysunbodaysun3302 The most correct take
Best explanation. I'm interested in the setting not what the video says.
Grim Dark is a great form of media to see what a person can take. A great example is the Eisenhorn Omnibus/Series.
This is a story of the Lucifer Effect, the falling of a hero, and what happens when a person must win in a world that tells them they will die. Then every drop of blood, sweat, terror, pains, and suffering that they inflicted on themself or had inflicted on them to win. They won the battle and kept their life. Now they must live with the cost of the victory.
If you need you can remove my comments if it was a bit too dark or edgy, but when I was in the absolute worst time of my life where I was actively trying to survive in a spot where everyone I knew, everyone who was told was there to help, and doctors actively hurting me. Everyone, everything, all the time was trying to make me assume room temperature.
It was nice seeing someone (even if they were fake) try to survive, in a spot where trust was the most valuable commodity, and see them pay with parts of their soul to win felt like a challenge for me to live. Not survive, to live.
Now that I'm out of that spot in my life, Grim Dark still holds a portion of my heart.
Of course I'm just a Gothic voice from the void, so find what makes you happy and keep up the wonderful videos.
4:35 rowboat literally died… twice. His spirit is all but broken. He is absolutely abhorred by the state of the imperium. It’s everything he stood against.
He is alone in a galaxy he despises… everything he sees is everything he spent 200 years fighting against to stop. Now it’s worse than he could have ever intentionally designed.
He perfectly incapsulate what 40k is about. It’s about wanting to do what you believe to be good or simply wanting to live your life how you want it. And rest of the universe trying its damn best to stop you. But you push on forward INSPITE of that. You do what you can… not what you dream about doing.
There is probably nothing more guilliman wants to do then pull up to start popping the heads of the religious fenatics he despises so much. But he doesn’t, he does what he thinks is the best and he does it however he can.
I agree with the one-dimensionalism problem. Like even Tolkein -if you read silmarilion or consider Boromir- has far more depth.
Notice how every time there’s a corrupt governor he doesn’t rebel cause his people are oppressed or just ambition. But he almost always has be corrupt by chaos?
Grimdark is unsustainable, it requires all the characters to be quite dumb in order to maintain itself. The pendulum will swing the other way, wars end, darkness gives way to light, evil will tear itself apart. That is inevitable as time and in an entire galaxy there should be a whole lot more good than there are bad. It is just that evil has a tendency to make itself look big.
On the other hand I like conceptually throwing stuff into Warhammer to dispel that nihilistic nonsense because the setting is flexible enough to allow it, and it is fun figuring out how an army works at times.
Thats why i liked the setting better when the 13th black crusade was coming "any day now," for 25 years. The setting is at its best when EVERYONE is about to fall apart.
Not really.
I think Bricky summed up the appeal of Warhammer very well. "Villains are badass. Everyone is a villain, so everyone is badass". Very well made video, good job. It does take a certain mindset to be the person who likes and wants to be the bad guy, and that isn't for everyone.
Looking at 40k as a "collection of villains" is a misconception of the IP, in my opinion. 40k isn't asking the question " what if everyone is a bad guy", so much as it is asking the question "what if x culture or y group was put in the worst circumstances imaginable".
With the exception of chaos, no faction is really ontologically evil (you could make an argument for the Dark Eldar as well). Most ideas and actions in the setting (again, save chaos) are usually driven by necessity.
Warhammer is at some of it's best when the "grim darkness" is a story, and not the setting. It's why the Emperor TTS show is beloved, because it shows how things can change within the Imperium. But, as another commentor put it, I feel like what you're really against is "cynasism porn," where because everything sucks there's no reason to change and everyone should just be depressed. But that's more lazy writing than anything.
Factions like the Salamanders or the Order Hospitaller in the Sisters of Battle really show that, even obeying the dogmatic views of the Imperium, hope can still shine through. The Hospitaller are healers and medics, and the Salamanders value family and compassion towards the common citizen where many other Legions disregard their own people.
I also feel like viewing Warhammer through the political and "boots on the ground" view points is what makes it interesting. Politically, Warhammer takes all the bad of every political system, smushes it together, and puts the withered skeleton (literally) of a dude who didn't want to be a god but becomes one anyway as its head.
And for Boots on the Ground, I feel like Darktide really sells the power fantasy of "even if you can't change the Imperium, you can make a difference here, in this one place."
The danger of grimdark is poor writing and conception turns it into cynicism porn. That can happen and is a real pitfall of the motif. It can also lead to laziness in storytelling and worldbuilding. And in themes.
Like, WH 40k can be an example of grimdark done thoughtlessly or used as a crutch. "A universe where everyone is bad" has often been used to justify promoting the fascist Imperium of Man as heroic in order to sell more product based on its popularity, without truly examining the fact that the Imperium are not the good guys. "Well, in 40k everyone is bad, so it's okay to be a fan of a bad guy."
Grimdark settings can be used very well. There are just pitfalls to them as with every choice.
I agree that the main priblem with 40k's grimdark in recent years is bad, lazy, self indulgent writing: most of the Dawn of Fire series and the Leviathan novel spring to mind as examples where the focus was too much on the grimdark and not enough on writing interesting, intelligent and believable(for the setting) characters. I think Abnett does the best job of balancing the grimdark and brutality with compelling characters who react in reasonable ways to the horrifically unreasonable situations they find themselves in.
If the setting was really grimdark though 9th edition would’ve seen the Imperium collapse or enter civil war, from Star Child Cults or incorporation of Primaris…
The imperium iself is never depicted as heroic, only the men and women it uses up are treated treated that way. Most fans acknowledge and know the imperium sucks as an entity, the only positive you can really give it is a subjective one of "well its the best hope of humanity as a species surviving at this point in the timeline" No one would want to live under it, even the idiots that think they would, wouldn't. If you think that screehing idiots online define the general opinion of the player or fanbase I can see why youd say this but its not the case from the players I've interacted with over the years
Its arguably good in some way. Since no faction if massively less evil than another it gives you a chance to root for anyone.
You can root for the tau, necrons, eldar or even chaos or orks and feel no more bad than rooting for the imperium.
Warhammer, magic the gathering, and other stories like it. Where it's tied to a game. Forces it's self to never end. The onky way warhammer will end is if it's creators quit. And even then, fanfiction will go on a bit longer. It's meaningless and there will never be a point. Heroes make no difference. And villains are nothing more than acne.
Its basically the whole Cain books for some people I know where you already know who Cain is and his posse but you know the same tricks since its the same plot over and over again, so it can get stale. I for one enjoy 40k but for my Space Marine Legion that were once part of the Ultramarines (don't sigh at me, they are awesome. Fight me!) who became more religious and Teutonic Order than the old flock, but unlike the Black Templars they see it as heresy to harm or not to help mortals for they are protectors of humanity and must follow what Guilliman teaches and be true to the Emperor's word in protecting mortals at all costs while also despising the Black Templars for exploiting the loopholes in their father's Codex Astartes and fear that they will turn to Chaos if they keep following this inhumane path. This for me is more appealing than the always forever damned nature of the setting.
Like sure that's the point but we also need to be reminded why we should CARE about humanity and everyone else in this setting. If all you have is dark and dread then all you have left is meaningless trivia that'll blow up smoke in the end. Why should I care for a guy who murdered ten people in one comic issue yet he's murdered several people from before? That's just dread for the sake of dread. That doesn't hook me in at all. Its just meaningless deaths that you could cut out and would have changed nothing. 40k may be THE most horrible, dark, and depressing timeline of the human race, but there's nothing at all that keeps new people in if all you have at the end of the day is blood soaked, tiring terror for the billionth time.
What I found works best is to treat the lore as guidelines, not something you have to follow to the letter. I like tragic heroism so most of my homebrew stuff leans towards that, but at the end of the day this is a game about little dudes fighting each other and they can be whatever you want. Your Chaos warriors can be bloodthirsty, sadistic marauders or mustache twirling Saturday morning cartoon villains, or anything in between. Your Space Marines can be brutal unfeeling eunuchs or badass space knights fighting for justice and honor. There's always gonna be "that guy" who thinks he can tell you what you can or cannot do but it isn't worth the time or effort to pay attention to such people.
Grimdark stories are inherently shallow to me. Yes, the universe is cold and unfeeling, but so what? Am I supposed to use that as an excuse to be a shitty person? To not ask for something better? I'm not saying you can't make a good Grimdark story, but its nature makes it's difficult to write anything that goes beyond the same level as a doomer explaining why your not smart enough to understand the deep, insightful fart jokes in Rick and Morty.
Exactly, at some point things just get so dark for the sake of being dark that characters don't even feel human, they're mouthpieces, telling you how dark and twisted the universe is through grandiose speeches and pseudo-philosophical monologues that ultimately fall flat because, when everything and everyone sucks all the time, there are no stakes, it doesn't matter who wins in the end, and you just stop caring.
I feel like it’s an intentional induction into this mindset that helps pave the way for IRL villains to pave over every last blade of grass without opposition
Interesting perspective. Without hope, there's no point, no alternative.
Totally agree. War without end is exhausting and cynical AF
Okay so I apologize for comments spam but I think I get it now. I think I understand the issue you have and why I don't have an issue. I think you were looking at it from a very top down perspective, whereas I think the universe is best enjoyed from a very bottom-up perspective.
Let's take a couple scenes from recent books. Look at Farsight choosing not to fall to Korne. That he would face his galures as himself and save his people however he can.
Or Dante taking everything Levithian has to throw at him snd deciding to fight on even if he should be dead. For he knows his very presence will cause the rest of the Chapter to fight harder. He cannot die yet, there is still work for him.
I assume you look at these scenes, and probably dozens of others in books I haven't read yet, and go "But it doesn't affect the story as a whole, nothing really changes."
Personally I look at these scenes and think thats whay anes them so cool. Because if these characters fail the story would go on nothing would really change, but they didn't, for a small tiny infinitesimal moment, they said no. With the eyes of beings they could not comprehend glaring at them, the entire weight of a universe telling them they were wrong, they chose to be different, to be heroes.
That's inspiring to me, moreso than many stories where the heroes are almost guaranteed to win.
It’s more real too, as the struggle never ends. The hero winning isn’t the end. The end of a book or movie isn’t the end. Warhammer is never ending, so these heroic moments reflect reality better to our own than a story where there’s an ending, especially one where one wins.
Farsight and Dante are better characters because of their hardship and dedication in the face of turmoil.
He may be referring to grimdark as like cases of it being dramatically ridiculous, which I can understand at times.
Grimdark is a chance to see who you are. One can look at the setting of Warhammer and take in the stories of hopelessness that arise, sure. But remember that it started as a wargame; endless battles between warlords (players) that do nothing to affect the greater outcome. That is its base, but that is not all that it is. Various pieces of animation, literature, and video games exist that smudge the hopeless patina, start to reveal something underneath the surface. What are the stories *you* would put into this world, that's what the appeal is. Because that's what even those original wargamers were doing. Just looking at minis and cardboard battlefields, every loving unthinned paint eyeball and every individually named field commander is a player putting their own hope into the setting. Maybe it's just hope to win the next match, maybe it's the stories they write in shared experience with others. Every fan animation, fanfic, hell every fan, is someone taking part in a passion that drinks deeply of it.
Y'know how a dry sponge soaks up water? Grimdark is like that; it eagerly takes in the hope and joy and with it you can, for a moment, scrub the grime from setting, to enjoy the polished finish beneath.
But fuck all them transphobes and misogynists, the fandom don't need them.
Excellently said friend. One thing to add. It doesn't make you feel very uncomfortable if the faction you build are bad guys.
My CSM are Word Bearers successors who worship "The Chaos God that the Emperor will become," They believe they have a holy mandate from the Emperor himself to remove him from the Golden Throne, where he will lead them upon a crusade against the False Church that claims to worship him.
Obviously delusional, and insane but I don't feel bad fighting my buddys Sisters Army.
Sometimes i feel like Grimdark is used as an excuse for bad writing or stupid things
Grimdark and things like Warhammer are fine, but in small doses for me. Honestly the whole concept gets kind of boring quick if not mixed in with other genres. Its feels very 1 note and try hard at times. Again, its all fine and honestly fascinating to learn about, but gets old fast. Idk only so many times I can read about death death death death hopelessness and everything sucks, followed by more death and hopelessness before I tune out. Space Marine 2 looks sick though
100% agree, especially when major aspects of human nature are ignored in 40K to maintain the grimdark stagnation. For example, you would think 100 trillion mothers loving their kids would give birth to the strongest, most powerful mama-bear, protective, chaos god in existence. However, the warp barely recognizes positive human emotion in 40K.
I get the idea that “everything sucks, so therefore the Chaos Gods only reflect bad emotions and if the universe was better off then maybe they’d be more positive.” But to me that completely contradicts the idea of humanity in 40k doing the whole “indomitable human spirit” thing. You can’t have both.
Despite the name I recommend Grimdark Future by OPR as a good 40k alternative believe it or not it is actually less Grimdark (heck in this universe there's actually diplomacy with the Alien Hives (Tyranids) and when it goes Grimdark is in a realistic way. Plus the World Book is only 15$, the rules are free and the starter sets are free or use your own Minis
Its also a great game and its more or less completely 40K transferable. (And it includes 2 fan favorite kit bashes in Space Skaven and Space Lizardmen)
Its a fun, faced paced amd engaging game that isn't bogged down with half as much slowdown as 40K.
A 3K game of OPR takes about half the time of a 2K game of 40K in my experience.
@@TheLordofMetroids indeed also don't forget it's ease of access free and simple rules plus free paper minis so you can play without investing cash.
I think need more GrimDark again. Maybe that's the reason,why so many people are fascinated by trench crusade. Youst everything in trench crusade screams grim dark.
I disagree honestly I don't really get bored of grimdark because if I want something else in a story I'll read something else, I highly recommend the Gotrek and Felix books. Alot of fantasy and sigmar has hope in it too.
Ultimately if you are bored of doing something, do something else
My problem with Grimdark is it's all or nothing. Yeah there's some sweet moments sometimes but there's never any actually "happy" stories. It just gets kinda depressing after a while. -_-
Yeah its definitely not a setting you consume exclusively, gotta mix in some cute slice of life stories and traditional superhero feel good stories
My particular problem with warhammer in this case is how it gets so bogged down in being grim dark that it leads to characters doing fucking stupid things when they're supposed to be smart
Like the deathwatch captain that killed an eldar performing a ritual because he was an eldar even though he knew it would've stopped... a hive fleet, I think. Either a hive fleet or a chaos incursion
And then shit like ship cannons being loaded by slaves that get hit with so much radiation they turn to dust by the time the round is chambered, like fuckin pulleys and elevators don't exist
That’s the whole point… happy stories would defeat that point and make the setting as a whole worse.
And why are those sweet moments great? Because everything else is shit. Because they are rare and that makes them that much more valuable.
@@62sy It's a matter of taste at the end of the day. Saying "that's the whole point" doesn't fix the problem some people have with the setting. Making a game look like trash on purpose doesn't change the fact that the game still looks like trash and wouldn't be enjoyable for some people.
I think Dark Fantasy works just as well without the need to go full Grimdark. It still makes those sweet moments just as meaningful while still allowing there to be a happy, or at least meaningful, ending. Grimdark tends to just be depressing from begining to end with only the promise of more depression afterwards. I can appreciate the general lore of 40k and the epic scale, but frankly it's the memes that keep me in the hobby. When you get down to the individual level of the setting, be it a guardsman, civillian, space marine, or inquisitor, things just kinda get sad and depressing. Can't speak for everyone obviously, but for me it offsets everything else the setting has to offer when you know it's all just going to stay the same in the end. Horror becomes less scary, mystery becomes less mysterious, and so on. It's all going to end in the same place it began more often than not, reguardless of what path you take to get there. It's almost like there's no stakes in the game because it's all going to hell anyways.
@@archellothewolf2083this is a personal opinion acting like an objective critique. I think that’s where there’s something of note. Your reasons behind grimdark don’t make it bad in of itself or a problem in of itself like when ppl say comic book stories are unrealistic. The media isn’t the problem with that point.
Idk I just don’t like it when ppl can’t separate this type of stuff when enjoying content, since when left as one in the same as actual criticism that’s not personal, to a writer of a story it gets confused.
Like one of the greatest short stories for example. I have no mouth and I must scream. Doesn’t feel objectively hopeless but it’s not a happy story you can read or enjoy too often if you personally feel the setting resets itself if the escalation or (assumption of it) continues it.
What I find interesting about this, I would argue Gears is grimdark. I don't think anything that has "mandatory breeding programs," can't be anything except Grim Dark.
Yeah, as far as settings go, I prefer Warhammer fantasy to 40k for many of the reasons mentioned in your video. In particular, how incredibly shallow and boring it gets over time. Just about every named character is a two-dimensional caricature and so over-the-top that it reminds me of sci-fi professional wrestling. It rides on being badass and stylistically cool, but the luster wears off on that after a while, at least for me. Good for tabletop wargaming, but as a fictional setting that's trying to branch out beyond that narrow window and tell actual stories that we're supposed to connect with on an emotional / human level, it reeeeally runs out of steam pretty fast in my opinion. Complex stories are about contrast, the interplay of light and dark and all the colors in between. Grimdark is taking a canvas and painting it solid black. Atrocity and horror becomes tedious and disconnected, which is not where you want them to be. There are no stakes, or at least you as the audience simply don't care about them because it becomes bland, repetitive, and mundane. It's bad worldbuilding / storytelling.
I like elements of Grimdark, and I'm grabbing a few its genre tropes to throw in with something I'm working on.
Same here, history works like the waves
Not a single rollercoaster arc.
I feel grimdark makes the 40k universe what it is now, the human's xenophobia, the tau's naivety, the Eldar being near extinction, the never ending hunger of more from the tyranids and chaos factions, the ork's everything. none of it would be the same if it weren't grimdark, it is intrensic to Warhammer's narrative and power scaling, and I'd venture to say Warhammer is what made the genre popular.
It definitely is and it works for Warhammer, my complaint would never be to change that. Just that it’s a style of storytelling that doesn’t exactly jive with me.
The premise of a human empire with millions of planets is so beyond unbelievable that anyone who tries to find realism in wh40k won’t find any. Fantasy is the key word, the grim dark less so if you want to really buy into this universe.
I always thought of Berserk as Nobledark, not Grimdark. At least that story has hope in it despite things going wrong along the way.
I don't believe in Grimdark being realistic because while things can go south, it's not like that on a daily basis.
My only gripe with Warhammer 40k is that the authors don't keep notes with each other and have very little to no meaningful impact of change.
Grim dark is what makes warhammer 40k, warhammer 40k.
Yes
Um... I always saw "Grimdark" as a visual aesthetic rather than a literary genre. At least, that's how it started out. If that's the case, then the possibilities of Grimdark are endless.
grimdark is surreal genra showing darkest depths of human mind
period
Used to love 40K back in the Rogue Trader(1st edition) days. Over time the degridation of the rules and the price bloat of participation in the hobby has driven me away. Personally I never really depended much on official lore and just went with my own personal head cannon and find GW lore boring and uninspired
I have seen modern 40K being described as Hopecore and i kinda agree ever since primaris was introduced and we went into 41K it felt way more different in the lore they make
Muddling the way 40K is presented
I never viewed "grimdark" as hopelessness.
I viewed it als
- There are no clean victories, only choices that must be weighed. Sometimes, in hindsight, people choose wrong.
- Sometimes, the best you can do is not enough.
- But if you manage to beat the odds, if you manage to keep your humanity despite this, then it shines all the brighter and is more impressive.
Also, giving up is almost never an option, fighting to the end is the norm rather then the exception.
Exactly. It feels more realistic than most stories that are popular now. In most books there aren’t special people… everyone gets the same treatment.
It feels like there are more stakes because there are seeming consequences for things that do happen.
What is "cute" and how it keeps me away from enjoying Hello Kitty.
Bro, just read Ciaphas Cain.
My enjoyment of 40k is just casual. I dont and will never look into it with any depth. I see a titan fighting another titan and think, cool, this is cool, the characters I enjoy as I always enjoy the characters.
Thats what I do with basically all the things I enjoy. Examining things just isnt for me but interesting video and congratulations on almost 10k subscribers.
The most Grimdark thing on UA-cam is Grimdark Musclemen!
Also grimdark gets boring real quick. Thats why I like universes like Halo where they rarely mix in some grimdark. Makes the dark tones of the stories more interesting/cool
You want Warhammer without the grimdark?
So basically, you don't want warhammer.
That’d be an awful take if that’s what I said
Me when grimdark setting is grimdark:
40k is a story told from the point of view of an Imperium narrator.
Is the galaxy really like that or is that just one point of view?
It is a big galaxy.
What no it’s not there’s POVs from the emperor of Mankind to Necron kings to the lowliest peasant what are you talking about 😂
You’re misunderstanding, grimdark as a concept, but I don’t blame you because Warhammer is the worst example of grimdark if you want good grimdark search up vermis
I think it would be cool to have a human faction In 40k that serves as a ideological opposite to the imperium of man one that has just as much if not more than grit than the imperium but has basically the polar opposite values as the imperium of man. Like instead of valuing hatred and cruelty in extremely high regard this faction would value love and compassion In extremely high regard. Instead of doing very high costing Wars that just waste human life instead use mostly rely on negotiation and use war as a last resort while trying to mitigate casualties on both sides as much as possible by ending the war as quickly as possible using a small number of extremely elite units that basically only go after high value targets that would involve minimal casualties.
This is basically what Tau is trying to do, though they are not human. It's not that they value kindness so much as just being rational and seeing violence as the final option. However, with humans it just won't work in the confines of wh40k world. Tau are not psychic beings, so chaos forces has almost no interest in them, orcs don't like to fight them due to their strategy of avoiding close and direct combat, necrons have other priorities, almost never interacting with Tau etc. Humans on the other hand are predisposed by their psychic power, huge numbers and the way their technology works to remain in a state of constant war and suffering.
That sounds dumb on every level. And you don’t seem to have actually read anything from the setting… VEEEERY RARELY does the imperium choose war when there is another choice.
Diplomacy comes first it was so during the great crusade and it’s still so during 40k. Imperium AVOIDS war.
Besides, That’s no longer warhammer. If there is no war… than that’s not warhammer for that got somewhere else instead of ruining the setting. Compassion and love have no place in war. And they are both meaningless if it’s a description for a faction.
Those moments of Compassion, respect, honor and even love are so great in 40k BECAUSE of the setting! They are valuable because they are rare. They become completely meaningless and annoying if everyone has them.
Whole thing about 40k is that EVERYONE is where they are due to circumstances outside of their control. They and their cruelty are a consequence of the galaxy as a whole.
Cruelty in 40k is a necessity… not a choice. Rarely does the imperium choose unnecessary or illogical cruelty. It happens. But by no means is that the representation of the imperium as a whole.
Imperium DOES NOT waste lives. Especially lives of their troops. They seek to utilize them as efficiently as possible. And only go to war if ABSOLUTELY necessary.
They need to be fleshed out more with more stories but the Votann are by nature close to this. Their worst aspect is that they're greedy for resources. But they're nothing like the Imperium and basically represent part of what humanity was before the galactic fall. They're not trying to build an empire. They don't want to conquer other humans to bring them under a single government. Essentially the Votann are one of the many human remnant civilizations the Imperium steamrolled during the great crusade - except the Votann can fight back and not be conquered and erased.
Relative to the perversity of the Imperium they're practically "good guy" humans. They even treat artificial intelligence equitably and give it "human" rights and citizenship. The most aggressive and cruel thing they do within the fiction so far, is attack the Mechanicus on sight if the Mechanicus accidentally wanders too close to a place where they might discover secrets of ancient technology and the Votann homeworlds. Because the Votann consider them madmen who are deluded and dangerous in their search for and use of technology.
There was a human world like that during Great Crusade, they got crushed by the Imperium because the Imperium, being a warmongering expansionist empire, was way better at the whole war thing.
Fun thing about the setting you could make that.
One of my goals in the "if i had unlimited money and time," file is to get some Titanacus knight minis and kitbash them a bit to make them more robotic. Run them as "Space Marines." Get the slightly taller knights as Terminators or Agressors. Then run Titans as Dreads.
Build a fully robotic "Space Marines army,"
For me, i hate the hopelessness. I hate seeing innocent people killed for no reason while the murderer gets off scot free then kills an entire world. I hate how the heros you built will just die and will never do any good. I hate that you cant have friendship or genuine love in grimdark. Its awful.
I think these reasons (they arnt all the reasons) is why i left warhammer for a long while. Ive since joined fantasy and found it much more enjoyable. Much more hopeful even. I would take a dark fantasy over a grimdark world anyday.
That and screw gw for constently taking away and deleting models i super love. And fuck what they did to alfabusa and so many other creators.
Edit: if grimdark had a really costly way to turn it to a dark fantasy type story "like i found the evil button imma smash it so theres a chance things can get better" i would be less upset
Then what's your thoughts on Warhammer fantasy and Age of Sigmar?
I actually think the imperium of man is a good representation of the indomitable human spirit. I think the indomitable human spirit is a neutral Force that describes humanities immense adaptability and for a lack of a better word grit. Even though the imperium is man doesn't seem very adaptable the fact that humanities alive at all in 40k proves that humanity has adapted to their environment and even though the imperium of man lacks many things it definitely does not lack grit.
If you want warhammer without grimdark might i recommend warhammer fantasy, or its sequel Age of Sigmar?
Tbh i do want a war hammer rebel faction not choas but people who broke off or something and perhaps some people questioning a false god
There are Renegade marine legions, like the Reasonable marines which are kinda a meme, and the Night Lords are renegade heretics, but they just get lumped in with Chaos anyways even though they don’t really care for the gods.
My own homebrew legion I’ve been building is a Salamander Renegade Successor; but unfortunately there’s no army rules for Renegade Marines on the tabletop.
counter point, the orks are the only ones who likely can win, cuz by ork logic, as long as you go down fighting in a good scrap, live or die, you win, and given the xenophobia of the other races, especially humanity, is not like they ain't gunna fight the orks when they show up looking for a scrap
I think 40k is the wrong focus for this kind of video. 40k is a setting for games, it is not a story. The criticism of grimdark being stagnant is correct if 40k is viewed as a narrative, but that isn't its purpose. I say that as someone who has gone through multiple phases of spending loads of time on the setting over the years. Ultimately, I always get tired of it because of its grimdark nature. I get tired of everything being a step forward and two steps back. Every victory being pyrrhic. But that's the same mistake made in this video. Seeing 40k as a story, when it is a setting for stories. And, more importantly, for games. Tabletop, or otherwise. Grimdark works that are made to be stories don't suffer from this, because they aren't designed to.
Same. Can't enjoy it.
with ben you can argue while ben would not have been able to win, he would have still done his best to try, though once he would leave that universe, technically the universe is left worse off, cuz rampaging korks
Attack on Titan mentioned🙌
Edit: oh hey you’re the dieselpunk guy
Yes I am the Dieselpunk guy
This future for humanity is the worst one. It's a boring trope, I hate it.
I hate grimdark.
I do not enjoy witnessing suffering, and especially i do not enjoy idea that sufferign is a norm and there is no hope of changing that.
Grimdark elements have palce in darker themed stories and universes, but setting that is solely based on hopelesesnns and endless suffering is boring and hard to care about.
Gounts, Cain, Loki, lamenters, Iyanden, Celestine. So many heroes and champions. So many effectively worthless characters, wich deeds mean nothing, only because setting as a whole is set as grimdark.
Compare that to Age of Sigmar or Fantasy. Both settigns are extremely dark, but are far from grimdark of 40k. Forces of good actually can win, heroes aren't vilified, stakes are still persent, dices are cast, future is uncertain at best or worst.
Those acts of heroism shine brighter in a grimdark setting.
Is the "Remembrance of Earth's Past" Grimdark?
1. you saying there is no plot armour in grimdark is funny. See: a lot of named characters in 40k.
2. you can't have stakes real stakes in warhammer. trillions dying and being eaten is not as often tyranids invading as it is how the imperium malnurishes its population. Losing one world only means losing 0.000001% of the imperium's territory. And so on.
3. It's hard to care for characters who have caused the grimdarkness of the situation through stupidity when you're told they aren't stupid. (see overexpansion kills empires, the emperor has seen it happen, so he overexpands his empire and expects it to be different)
Well, at least there’s not supposed to be ala Game of Thrones but plot armor (or a named ultramarine) is the most powerful ability in 40kz
World War 1 looks comfrtable compaired to GRIMDARK
Im very sorry that you got influenced by modern iteration of Warhammer. 7-10 codices ruined the original spirit. Reject modernity, return to black n white brutal artwork
where are cutscenes from?
Games, trailers, announcements and so on. The fantasy scenes (with the skaven. The rat guys) were from age of Sigmar
@@blubberfeet5430 what about the Titans?
@damirbabic8168 oh that's the horuse heresy trailer
Then Warhammer isn't for you.
Thank you for summarizing what he said in the video I guess?
Well heres the truth. 40k isnt realistic at all and i mean beyond psychers i mean the sentiment of a hopless future is both not possible by demonstratabley untrue.
The world has objectively improved with time. more freedom and good exists today than ever before.
Personally if 40k wants to be realistic? thered be a good ending. Personally 40ks grimmdark being the charm of the setting is kind of.. bullshit? 40ks charm is clearly not "everyone sucks" becuase people spend too much time investing themselves in there faction (And defending them) for that to be the case. For a story to progress change of the good variety has to be possible. And thats currently whats happening and its exciting people.
The point of 40K's grimdark setting is that everything is so terrible and doom laden that acts of personal courage and integrity shine the brighter as a result. Heroism against desperate, even seemingly insurmountable, odds that endures anyway is a special kind of indomitable nobility of spirit.
I think it would be really interesting to see a piece of 40k fanfiction were one of those seemingly insignificant people amongst countless billions manages to redeem the imperium of man. I know it's unrealistic but 40K isn't exactly known for its realism and I think it could make for a interesting story even if it wouldn't fit the overall theme of 40K which is why I think it would make for a good fanfiction even if it wouldn't fit in Canon 40K.
Helldivers vs Killzone Helghast
I think it would be interesting to have a faction that serves as a moral opposite to the imperium of man in 40k that has just as much if not more grit than the imperium but values love and compassion instead of hatred and cruelty like the imperium. I also think it would be cool to have them use opposite tactics to the imperium as well mostly relying on negotiation instead of war and when they do wage war as a last resort they minimize casualties by avoiding big battles I'm using small numbers of elite units to Target high value targets to minimize casualties on both sides and end the war as fast as possible.
There's the Tau Empire who seem to fit your description
Tau?
@DogseatDogs Technically no? They're a Loyalist Space Marine Chapter that are aligned with the Imperium
We had that: the Tau Empire. Then GW caved and made them Grimderp punching bags.
@DogseatDogs Oh ok, thanks for clarifying that
You can say that about warhammer. Girllyman is back the primarchs will be back tech will improve and the emperor will come back.
Grimdark IS 40k
Yes
Then don’t get into it simple as that. I really don’t like starwars because of its non grimdark element and I don’t complain about it I just found a series that placated to that.
Honestly, bad take. This video is pretty clearly an open discussion of the genre of grimdarm, and yes his view of grimdark is coming from one where he doesn’t like it, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be talked about, or discussed. He says he doesn’t like it but doesn’t bash it and opened up a space to talk about it both good and bad. He at no point complained about it. Denying others the chance to talk about different genres and ideas helps no one, least of all the genre being discussed.
I smell heresy
So basically, it’s as wide as an ocean but as shallow as, not a puddle, but a pond.
depends on the author, as he mentioned there are hundreds of 40k novels, short stories, audio dramas etc, many of them I would argue are truly great literature, while most arn't. most 40k books are either stand-alone narratives, trilogies etc.
Just no
I like forza but i feel like the race setting is reductive and limiting. The cars look cool but all they do is race around the track...this guy. Grim Dark is an inky black sea that allows the greatest qualities of humanity to be showcased. It is only in complete hopelessness that true honour, duty and courage can shine. The concious choice to do your duty knowing your sacrifice is only one of countless billions. That is why grimdark appeals to me.
Yes. I agree.
40k isn't really grimdark, its actually edgy British Shonen battle anime. The "good guys" or loyalist Space Marines/Imperium always wins in some plot armor riddled nonsense.
read "Dead Men Walking" if you want an example of the opposite.
Maybe the game is not for you. And that's okay. Don't be a tourist, no need to change the hobby.
The author makes no mention of changing anythings, he only explains why he doesn't like the one specific aspect of it.
I explicitly said I like and enjoy Warhammer for what it is and would never ask it to change. Just what Grimdark means to me and how it’s a barrier that keeps me away from delving two feet into the pool.
then go enjoy something else.
Grim dark is not for everyone, if people don’t like it, there’s other franchise.🤷
Yes
What is grimdark well it's not warhammer anymore honestly I'm disappointed at where warhammer 40k had gone after the hores heresy had ended it became every autistic kids dream where everyone is just screaming some random bullcrap
"How the fantasy genre stops me from enjoying isekai stories".
Yeeeeah. This sounds a little stupid.
Nice opinion.
Where did you get it? The "bad opinion" store? 😂😂😂
Grimdark is where hope shines the best. With actual realistic stakes on the line instead of the surety of a protagonist's triumph.
Imho, grimdark is where hopes shines the least.
There is no victory, there are no stakes. Hope is a poison that will only lead to further suffering. The whole point of hope and goodnes in grimdark setting is to give comparison to how everything is shitty.
>With actual realistic stakes on the line instead of the surety of a protagonist's triumph
This has nothing to do with setting being grimdark or not.
"realistic stakes on the line" actual require the possibility for anything good to actually happen, you just replace "the surety of a protagonist's triumph" with doomposting in literary form, where there is a surety nothing will ever get better or improve.
@@brokenmirror3911 Yes, probably not much will improve in the grand scheme of the galaxy but most stories have more limited scope and there is interesting things for protagonists to achieve.
You are exhausted after reading a Warhammer 40,000 novel grow up you are a child I usually enjoy the novels.
I think you just discovered that different people have different tastes.