@@MozzieMutant, this is just a left wing cliche. Kenhide himself quotes Ibn Khaldun, a 14th century Arab, saying that Blacks weren't capable of advanced thought. You weren't paying attention.
The West has dominated technology and cultural pretension across all the world for two centuries. Any society that progresses forward at this point is going to have to be undeniably influenced by the West. Non-Western societies that want to be relevant in the modern world are going to struggle with how much of today's reality is Western rather than just modern, and how much they can embrace without selling out their own culture. It doesn't mean that a country like China has to consider itself to be Western in order to be advanced. It can chart its own course, but it would be foolish to try to do so without taking advantage of the advances developed during the time of Western global dominance.
Because they have shown you can drag 100s millions out of absolute poverty purely through copying capitalism. Showing if sub-saharan Africa aren't doing that, it isn't the west's fault. His definition of the West is "personal responsibility". I'm just concerned for what he'll do when we run out of vinegar for the chip on his shoulder.
@@danielwebb8402 China didn't copy capitalism, they deployed it. It's one factor of the poverty alleviation program (primarily the funding engine), which is a state-controlled targeted social management program.
@@alanfriesen9837 Very true. And agree is a difference. They've deployed / used is a much truer framing. But the outcome has been they basically have no one in absolute poverty anymore. Within less than 2 generations it took them. Ditto, but to a less extent, India has dragged 100s millions out of absolute poverty in the past 30 years. Now have a middle class that can afford Pepsi (hence their cricketers earn $$). And they were a colony until the middle of last century. So why can't Zimbabwe copy India? Why can't Ghana copy China? Was what I was trying to say.
How on earth can anyone think that Columbus is the most revered person in the US? He ranks far behind the founding fathers - Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson et al. How can you talk about Manchester and cotton and not talk about the cotton famine and how Lincoln sent a letter thanking the people of Lancashire for their support.
An historical figure that got on a boat and sailed towards the unknown and changed the world. Nothing to respect about that. I summarily declare so because incongruences with my contemporary worldview. Hiss, hiss, Christopher Columbus! I biteth my thumb toward thee. You're not great. Look at me.
There is no Benjamin Franklin Day in the US, likewise George Washington Day or Thomas Jefferson Day. There is a Columbus Day. This is maintained despite the deep discomfort it brings to First Nations people, who still suffer (those who are left) hugely as a result of his so-called discovery. If he is not of any importance, it seems strange that he is still celebrated with a holiday.
"Is the west the most racist". Bruh Africa is 10x more racist than the west, infact a lot of other ares are way more racist like the balkans, poland, africa. It's a human thing, not a western thing.
@@garyg.782 It's not the least racist continent. For example the sudan war was started because christain africans and muslim africans didn't like each other. Mugabe evicted white farmers just because they were white, even though they were supplying the region with food. Even American slavery was able to happen because african warlords at that time were selling other africans to us.
@@floater7082 a conflict between two different religions isn't evidence of racism. Mugabe removing the descendants of colonialists who still dominate his nation economically is not racism either.
@@garyg.782 It is if the war is because of race. Also yes removing white farmers is racism. Their was no point behind it because those farms were literally feeding the country and when the white farmers got removed everyone suddenly wanted them back. Their was no logical thinking behind the decision, really I can only come to the conclusion is that the decision was made because they were white farmers.
Weak intellectuals like Kehinde love pontificating about revolution, but they expect others to fight it for them. He's "an ideas man," also known as a coward. Also, he gets trashed in every debate I've seen him in.
Isn't that the usual case? Some left wing middle class or priestly intellectuals become dissatisfied with a regime, so they start writing books and pamphlets, stirring up the working classes, of whom they don't give a tom tit, justt jumping on their corpses to squash them as they die in the resulting revolutions so that they can climb up to the top and become the new ruling elite. French revolution. Russian revolution, Iranian revolution ... it's always the same.
@Neach ie Let me put it this way, you clueless woke little Hampton, who is probably still at school and has never fended for itself in the world yet, but rages against others: It doesn't matter what the colour, fire starters like your little woke colleague in this video are the ones who fire the verbals and turn people against each other whilst they sit back and watch others spill the blood. That's not *romance*, that's *fact!* And seeing as you have your rose-tinted spectacles on why don't you look at other oppressors who are not white. What about the Arab tribes who were slave trading in Africa, long before European ever started empires there. What about the Japanese who viewed all other races as inferior and murdered millions from the 20's to the 40's? How about Chairman Mao who murdered millions of his own? Idi Amin? What about the Hindu, discriminatory caste system? Pol Potts - ever heard of him? People are allowed their opinions and we don't need permission from the likes of bigots like you who are the real racists because that's all you ever talk about and only ascribe discrimination to in your little pseudo Eden. Now why don't you do something constructive like go and get a job (that's if you are old enough, otherwise stop bothering me you little strop.)
The very ironic thing is that the world is actual a net better than they have ever been due to western civilisation (albeit not perfect). Thing is , Kehinde is a critical race theorist , he isn’t here to build bridges only ideological dominance.
Eighty-two per cent of victims on the London Underground and 70 per cent of victims on commuter railways around London also identified their muggers as black.
Ten years to grow a tree, but one hundred years to bring up a generation of good men. the quote of the second president of America John Adams, Letters of John Adams, Addressed to His Wife :"I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.”
I would rather discuss how can the West be better for ALL of its citizens. This rehashing traumatic points in our history without providing solutions is fruitless, in my opinion.
What I want to know is, if black people are treated so bad in white countries, why stay? They say it's always been terrible and oppressive and unjust and racist and that white people are inherently racist and can't change - so why try? Doesn't that just prove that multicultural multiracial societies don't work? Protesting will achieve nothing if that is the case. So why stay more than 1 generation? Why come at all? No-one is forcing them to stay and be oppressed. Apparently black people were so amazing they built the West and without them we'd be nothing. So why not go to Africa and turn it into Wakanda without any horrid white people interfering? it would be the pinnacle of human civilisation surely? If the West never felt like home and can never be home WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE? If reparations should occur, perhaps it could be a free plane ticket to Africa. Otherwise STFU. I love black people who see through all this bull and accept this is a white majority culture and society. If I go live in Japan I wouldn't expect complete and utter equality with the locals, I am the stranger. If I live in Nigeria why would I complain there's not more white people in the Nigerian parliament or Nigerian soap operas? What I think is really going on is a push for power. Numbers are rising, the West has become soft and weak, they don't want equality they WANT POWER. Just listen to some of the rhetoric. You could call it chickens coming home to roost and all that (although my ancestors were dirt poor farm peasants so not sure what I 'owe' anyone) but the end result would simply be all the achievements of the West being undone and we become an African/Middle Eastern version of society. No thanks.
@@rohiths9099 Which gives them even less excuse to whine or pontificate about being 'African Queens' or some other bullshyte. Still feel pissed off about slavery and think America is evil? Then LEAVE. Personally I think they won the cosmic jackpot being American citizens. I bet millions would happily swap places with them.
It depends on the country (there is quite a few in the west) But they are not as racist as it is in Africa. So no trade was done with wool, coal, iron and did Britain also trade with countries in the east such as India, China? Sadly Kehinde seems to see everything through a black racist lens... I do try to listen to Kehinde but he conflates statistics with race and racism at a simplistic level without any proof or complexity..... All of the things that he attributes to what makes the difference of racism by the west are also used and deployed, sometimes more effectively, by other cultures.... he really is disingenuous to the point of dishonest. He does make a lot of money in the race-baiting areana
I can not express how much I love it that @ 43:57 even the host was clearly done with the blatant inequities in Kehinde's arguments and started correcting him.
Why did Kehinde miss the most salient point to confirm his point of view and that is Psychological conditioning, of entitlement, instilled domination of European group over the target. A sense of superiority was encouraged to reinforce dominance over the targeted group, to generate security, maximize submissive behavior and efficient productivity. PAL (Pared Associated Learning was applied where the targeted group must always be seen in an undesirable condition.- Controlling group must always be seen in a favorable light. Result - the victim will ultimately lose the sense of self-worth, try to emulate his oppressor which will always lead to the following conditions: (a) Low or NO Group and Self Esteem followed by (b) Self-hate, Depression, Self-oppression, Psychic Trauma, finally ultimate individual and group self-destruction. That combination manifests into a sense of what is now known as racism ( dominance entitlement superiority ) throughout the colonial European culture and rapidly spread through all of Europe.
Abandonment would be implausible . The moment you accept the primacy of reason and empirical observation you’ve become a flag bearer of the enlightenment .
@@thomasreaves588 White Fragility is a book written by a white woman to profit off the pain of POC. Literally the WORST reading suggestion you can give, and I probably agree with you on most things.
Take a look around. Which countries have the most diversity and which ones have the least. There you go. Obsession over race is a western issue yes, but only because it is working hard to push for equality whilst other nations do not care.
Surinam was a Dutch colony in which slavery was brutally practised, BUT the Dutch also allowed for Hindu laborers, Indonesian ones, etc to live there. The fact that other cultures may exist in one place does not make the place less racist. It means that those people are allowed there to fullfill their service which is always to bring in money (pay taxes at the very least). That's the expectation at least. Reality has shown that this is being contradicted by the fact that housing companies often lump them together in ghettos which prohibits them form integrating properly, because you can't integrate when you're not around the people native to the land. And if you're also denied work due to your ethnicity (which also happens), you'll never integrate properly. But people rather say that immigration is to blame rather than admitting that the way they went about it was completely inadequate.
Nonsense. People live with people like themselves out of choice, not because some housing company puts them there (what a bizarre claim!). And this is the case for the overwhelming number of immigrants and even descendants of immigrants. The time for them to assimilate has long passed,.and is now nothing more than a hopeless dream.
@@h____hchump8941 That isn't true. They get appointed houses with urgency so they don't have to wait for years on a home like the rest of us. You can argue that they can rent homes for a much higher price from individual real estate agents, but even they have certain criteria for whom they rent houses to. Nevertheless those houses are always more than 20% more expensive than renting from normal housing companies (their minimum prices average at 1000 euros while renting from a regular company can cost you around 500 euros). The decendants of immigrants are another case completely. They do get proper housing from those companies, because they can wait 5-7 years to be appointed a house or they can buy. Nevertheless, they still had to spend their formative years in ghettos which provides an plethora of problems of which you're not too dumb to figure out what those are. We also see that non whites have more trouble with finding jobs. We also know that (in my country) the teachers tend to send them a lower advice for follow up schools than their grades allow (this has been proved in MY country) and was a big talking point during the last elections. The problem with enrolling students in much too easy classes is that you're not properly preparing them for society, which isn't easyt at all. The skills to adjust to increasingly difficult situations (which is aqcuired in school) is not aqcuired then and what do we see: they get bored in class, start to bore others, get expelled and become destined to fail. This wasn't a conscious decission. We're talking about children, after all. The system has betted against them (by purposely downplaying their abilities) and WE are now paying the consequences. Again, this might be different where you live, but you might recognize at least a bit of it.
That's simply false. Every living creature wants the living standards that the west has developed through exploitation. It's not western people themselves they're in love with 😂😂
Your English is a bit incoherent there, nevertheless the points you're making, from what's actually comprehensible, are absolutely ridiculous. What you're essentially saying is that you believe in inherited guilt, the acceptance of fact without proficient evidence and a concept of shared guilt by involuntary group affiliation.
@Neach ie Re: your point about historians. You're objecting to the views of a particular, present-day historian on the basis of the aggregate tendencies of scientists and historians in the past. That's dumb. Why not critique the points he actually made?
They were both a bunch of idiots whistling in the wind: Kehinde Andrews missed the most important point to confirm his point of view and that is Psychological conditioning of entitlement was instilled in the dominant European group. A sense of superiority was encouraged to reinforce dominance over the targeted group, to generate security, maximize submissive behavior and efficient productivity. PAL (Pared Associated Learning was applied where the targeted group must always be seen in an undesirable condition.- Controlling group must always be seen in a favorable light. Result - the victim will ultimately lose the sense of self-worth, try to emulate his oppressor which will always lead to the following conditions: (a) Low or NO Group and Self Esteem followed by (b) Self-hate, Depression, Self-oppression, Psychic Trauma, finally ultimate individual and group self-destruction. That combination manifests into a sense of what is now known as racism ( dominance entitlement superiority ) throughout the colonial European culture and rapidly spread through all of Europe.
Sorry but I just can't listen to Kehini Andrews. Not even if it's to see his dumb arguments destroyed. He's such a horrible little victim. Vile man. And the constant " I know it all, and I'm always right " smirk he has on his face just brings out the worst in me.
The one that you would expect goes on with bad takes on history and whines collectively for an hour trying to accept no responsibility. The other is an actual historian
Honestly, just go about your day. You’re right, these guests are so predictable, nobody is interested in learning from anybody else. It’s tiring to watch.
@@Typhoon860 Yeah he should have accepted responsibility for what an entire civilization does, and oh yeah act like racism is unique to one civilization.
@gerard dearie the burden of proof is on Andrews and Black disproves everything he says and then some. He also gives us a solution that doesn't involve a revolution presumably drowning the western world in white people's blood and the proclamation of a doomed Black USSR
Absolutely no concept of world's history. Columbus was thousands of years after Greek and Roman empire slavery - no colour prejudice needed, they made white, brown, yellow or black into slaves! The worst groups guilty of enslaving Africans, were other African tribes who captured and sold their 'enemies.' White men didn't need to catch them, all of that work was done for them by fellow Africans. That's right black lives were traded by other black men. Get you facts right. What's more, the British Empire (in particular) was still in operation when they outlawed slavery around the turn of the 18th to 19th century, and yet the USA kept slavery going for another 150 years, and after the American civil, the north American racial discrimination continued at a clip... could it be that ethnic communities, black, brown, yellow or white, are zoning areas for people who struggle to get out of their rut? Systematically, groups of people and their tribalism is Birmingham, London, Glasgow, Belfast, and on and on hold back this communities.
In a way, I wish the world - and human relationships - were as simple as Kehinde seems to believe. But I'm just not seeing it, and if his approach is indeed overly-reductive, it won't help create a more just society, which is, as far as I'm concerned, the goal. Venting has its place, but the priority should be the achievement of actual, measurable progress. He has a tendency to conflate lots of information and ending up mistaking correlation for causation. This projects the impression that he processes information in ways that confirm his predispositions (i.e.confirmation bias), instead of allowing the evidence to lead him to the best available version of the truth.
Why not ask: are humans inherently racist? .... why just the West? There have been racist behaviors on hundreds of cultures around the whirl and through history... Here is a better question: is the topic of this debate discriminatory against the West?
@Nick Bointon No the oldest bronzes were made pre renaissance. The terra-cotta of the Nok I think are spectacular. Im also not sure if they made bronze castings as well either. They lasted from about 1500 BC to 500 AD.
Kehinde is a radical making plenty of extreme generalizations and is jumping to baseless conclusions, ignoring any nuance and facts that would complicate his flawed assertions. "Poor people in China are poor because they're brown". This should appear on the dust jacket of Kehinde's book to indicate the absurdity of the mind that wrote it and the probable absence of value in its content.
I'm glad Kehinde acknowledged that not every white person is racist. I hope some of us can be spared at least long enough to lend support to the revolution.
Personally I feel Kenhinde Andrews is one of the most unbearable people on the planet, he’s so negative and seems to find racism in everything if anything he pushes it because let’s be honest if he didn’t he would have to get a real job to make ends meet!
Stick to the arguments not the person, that's a kop out. What in his argument is factually inaccurate. Also its just lazy to say he's only saying this things for personal pleasure.
One thing that is troubling about folks like Professor Andrews is the way he is committed the historical erasure regarding the role Africa, and diverse nonWestern peoples, played in slavery historically. This is a terrible violence to history, and to education.
Absolutely. For all the wishful ahistorical thinking of these folks, with their pan-africanism and black brothers and sisters desire, African people and states sold out their own undesirables to Atlantic slavery. Not to mention the genocides they carried out on their own. And that is besides clear racism outside the West, indeed. But according to wizkid Andrews it was actually worse in the west because they made it political, and obviously the non-western folks never included racism in their politics and policies. Absolute drivel.
According to Kehinde western racism is actual pure evil and still ever present because it got political, and all the non-western folks clearly didn't make their racism political? Despite non-western states also engaging in slave trade and exploitation of specific (ethnic) minorities? Like, how the f does that work. How do you not see the inherent contradiction in that. That is exactly how you know the guy is just politically motivated and blind to actual truth.
I'll also just repost what I posted earlier, maybe you'll find it interesting: What I also find an interesting reading, is how much Kehinde's view hinges on the underlying firm belief that history as it has unfolded is the only way it could've unfolded. Therein lies the dangerous, tacit implication that European dominance and African subjugation were inescapable eventualities. Now there are many possible explanations why certain tribes thrive while others do not, and yes geography and climate do play a part in that; but on the whole, this reading is absolute nonsense. Human history could've unfolded an untold amount of ways, but it has as it did and so it is. I do not believe he intended this particular reading, but taking what he says as the political messaging it actually is, what he intends is to frame history and the current political reality as: (white) Europeans are evil oppressors by nature, and (sub-Saharan) Africans (continent or diaspora) and other minorities are innocent victims that need see that inherent evilness and resist (and fight back). His thinking is so inherently biased a certain way, it is not even funny. It is weaponising victimhood, clothing yourself in hypocritical moral righteousness, with the goal to become a new sort of useless profiteer and oppressor. It is sheer malice. Jeremy Black adequately and gracefully refutes this line of thinking by approaching history and the world as complex and multipolar, as any reasonable and fair human being should.
When you start your argument with a false Idea (Columbus is the most revered figure in the US) I can't get on board with anything following. That's really unfortunate.
@@Rob337_aka_CancelProof Can you please add punctuation or change lines per thought? Anyone familiar with language knows that the rules of language are used when you want to fully communicate your points.
Let's say instead of race we made it based on vulnerability because of differences in technical ability. I hardly think white people would have been able to subjugate black people or brown people if they were technologically equal during the time of colonialism. On the contrary I'm almost 100% certain if they were at the same technological level or higher at the time they would have been colonizing the new world and subjugating white people just exactly like it went down but with the colors reversed. It's about opportunistic behavior and exploitation but has nothing at all to do with race. He'll add to that also that I'm pretty sure everybody already knows that and has turned this into some sort of Witch Hunt to game the system and try to leverage the victimhood status because they can. It's the white liberals actually put the pieces together so they could manipulate the emotions that we all have when we feel like we've been victimized and those two just like everything else are the same for all of us of all colors because we're exactly the same other than superficial aesthetic differences and cultural differences everything else is the same for all colors. And I'm convinced so it's going to take more than trying to manipulate my emotions to change my mind, but give it a shot and see how well you do. Also if there was a way to completely isolate Africa the whole continent The Agrarian culture will hardly change for centuries it's the problem of the low-hanging fruit not challenging people enough in Equatorial climates. You have to ask yourself why over 100 Years of black progress between emancipation and Johnson's new deal has been so supressed through great effort? Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, & Jason Riley already figured it all out for you and even published it for distribution, but nobody wants to hear the truth because personal responsibility asks a lot of the individual and if you're the author of your story and you fail then it's your fault and no one else
Both North and South America had civilisations before any were present in Europe. The fact that anyone calls it "The New World" is revolting. By the way, white people didn't exist in the Western hemisphere you idiot.
@@blitzofchaosgaming6737 every problem in your life is somebody else's fault you're fucked and have no control over your future cuz you're the only person on this planet you have any hope of Ever Changing victim status doesn't do you any favors it just makes you powerless. Go live alone in the wilderness or on a mountain somewhere by yourself for a year and if you have any problems at the end of that year you own them.
@@Rob337_aka_CancelProof So if I hit you with a car and you are in a coma for 13 months the last month is your fault? Or if I use my 2nd Amendment right and protect myself aggressively and an innocent bystander gets paralyzed they can only blame the situation for a year then its on them? I don't see myself as a victim. But victims do exist, just as abusers do exist. You for instance are a victim to thinking facts and opinions are equal.
What was Britain like before colonialism? Did the average citizen(or subject) have a high standard of living? Was it a wealthy nation before it engaged in all that international piracy, slavery and genocide?
It was invaded by a bunch of people called "Vikings". But they weren't racist, they were the same colour, they simply butchered and enslaved people in feudal Britain based on their... um... race. But nobody talks about Vikings, or about William the Conqueror, because their skin-colour would destroy the racist narrative.
No, we aren’t fundamentally racist, and racism is also not a ‘white-only’ phenomenon. Plenty of Africans are awful people as well, plenty of Indians dislike black people, and on and in it goes. Western countries are some of the few in the world where racism is actively discouraged through legislation so I would say that we see more of it here because we are constantly trying to regulate it (which is not bad).
Kehinde Andrews missed the most important point to confirm his point of view and that is Psychological conditioning of entitlement was instilled in the dominant European group. A sense of superiority was encouraged to reinforce dominance over the targeted group, to generate security, maximize submissive behavior and efficient productivity. PAL (Pared Associated Learning was applied where the targeted group must always be seen in an undesirable condition.- Controlling group must always be seen in a favorable light. Result - the victim will ultimately lose the sense of self-worth, try to emulate his oppressor which will always lead to the following conditions: (a) Low or NO Group and Self Esteem followed by (b) Self-hate, Depression, Self-oppression, Psychic Trauma, finally ultimate individual and group self-destruction. That combination manifests into a sense of what is now known as racism ( dominance entitlement superiority ) throughout the colonial European culture and rapidly spread through all of Europe.
White people in white Europe have a white culture and strong sense of self? Wow colour me shocked. I'm sure in Africa and Asia it's the complete opposite.
I watched this because I thought, "I see Kehinde all the time say everything is racist, but he only has a few minuets to fit into a TV segment when I do see him; it would be good to see his expanded arguments, and see the intellectual underpinnings, even if I know I'll disagree with most of them..." I feel sorry for Jeremy and Anne wasting their time to just have him say the word racist three times in every sentence. It was like listening to an Edward Said book, but written by a 6th-former who had a bit too much sugar in their meal beforehand...
Shut up you racist. If you can't understand the complexities of meaning within the word racist then you ain't got no business debating bruv. No intellectual underpinnings required when you just spittin straight truth innit
Yes I agree with you, his arguments jump all over the place, I don’t deny the history it happened but who captured black people to sell to white people er black people. I don’t believe in genetic pain. He talks about empire he talks about poor African countries. Yet Nigeria is one of the richest but… also the most corrupt
Bit underwhelmed by this moderator. Doesnt summarize the positions, doesnt ask probing questions, gets nervous when the debate gets even a little heated. ("Its pistols at dawn!!!")
Kehinde Andrews clearly has an agenda and grossly ignores and distorts evidence to fit his argument. Jeremy Black comes across as a much more nuanced historian.
Is there any statistics Andrews didn't lie about? There were 251k Food preparation and serving employees in NYC in 2015 and 1.88M African Americans with 12% unemployment rate. How half of 1M( generously assuming only 53% were employed) were employed in 251K position( disregarding that not all of 251K are in fast food)? Upper estimate of Hispaniola population before 1492 is 750K, with conventional estimate of few tenth of thousands,. Nowhere near 8M that he clams. Current estimates are that about 12M to 12.8M Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years, not 36M. The World Bank Group estimates that 9.8M people in China live below international poverty line, nowhere near 400M that he clams.
The question in itself doesn't make much sens from a logical perspective. "Is the West fundamentally racist ?" If the answer is yes, then there is two possibilities: the West is racist, and so is the rest of the world (therefore the question should be "are humans fundamentally racists ?") or the West is racist, and the rest of the world is not, which would imply that there is a fundamental difference between the West and the rest of the world, and ranking groups of people based on their ethnicity and/or geographical location is the very difinition of racism. Thus, "Is the West fundamentally racist" would be, purely technically speaking, a racist question asked by a westerner, hence the question would imply the answer. The exact same thing could be said if the answer is no. If the West is not racist, what about the rest of the world ? If they are not, again, there's no need for a specific question related to the West. And if they are, then the question is a racist statement, and again, would lead to an obvious answer.
Fascinating debate between a historian and an identity politics activist. A must watch for people who are not educated about "Critical Theory" ideology. It is obvious in this interview how the likes of Kehinde Andrews see the world and history through a very distorted and divisive lens. There is a very big difference between making a lucid, honest Mea Culpa and tainting everything about the West as toxic.
Does the emphasis on racism as the main reason or biggest reason for economic and social discrimination, obscure the perhaps more complicated reasons for those problems?
It certainly does obscure the more complicated reasons. And sometimes it's used as a simplification to deliberately distract from these complicated reasons.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn the definition of "racism" obscures racism. E.g. too many insist that it's not possible to be racist against white people, not seeming to know nor care that this insistence itself is fundamentally racist. Bottom line, it's mostly identity-politics BS, and wokeism has morphed into a dangerous cult of terrorist proportions.
@@mfoco1 "Too many believe". The number of people who believe that you can only be racist against minorities, is smaller than the number of people who are actually racist. When you only care about racism when it is against white people, it undermines racism against white people. Woke people are great, actually. We need more wokeness, and white people need more training. Wokeness is the only real contingency to keep white behavior in check, so I a for it based on that alone. Sure, some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Lastly, white identity politics created wokeness, was a response to it. White supremacy is the cause of all of our troubles. Get rid of it, and the symptoms go away. White identity politics is the original and true scourge.
The first guy was such an extreme caricature of the kind of reductive, simplistic, Manichean, post-colonialist mindset which pretty much can be summed up as "white man bad" that it would make even Nicole Hannah-Jones (the author of the 1619 project) cringe. "The West was behind", huh? If it was so primitive what does it tell you about the state of the rest of the world if Europeans defeated pretty much all the cultures they encountered with such ease? Saying "Europe was inferior to other areas, which is why they could take over the world" is a statement that just doesn't make sense on any level.
It was inferior. The brutality required for conquer requires a mind that is closer to earlier, animalistic non-conscience/conscious thinking. It's why we say those who can't argue or debate without resorting to violence is wrong.
Some of these commenters are confused betweem racism and xenophobia. There are xenophobes everywhere. However, Western and Arab civilizations both used racism to justify slavery, which is why both civilizations have major and violent racism. Other civilizations have (even major) xenophobia, but they don't have deep seated hate based on skin color.
The reason why Jeremy Black is so rooted in his wilful ignorance is because he’d have to face his own mediocrity and inadequacies were he to acknowledge the systemic disparities that have favoured him for so long
I don’t understand why some people get so angry when it’s said that the west has a problem of racism. I have lived in Britain for 20 years and I’m the target of racism on a weekly basis. The fact that other parts of the world are also racist doesn’t make it any better!
@@garyg.782 No it doesn’t have to mean that. One nation’s racism problem has nothing to do with any other nation’s racism problem and the fact that there are many countries where racism is a problem, just makes the issue worse. It’s not a competition of who is less racist and in my opinion by trying to deal with this issue in this way just undervalues the stress and anxiety that being the target of racism gives you.
@@mayafreeman7614 if I call you tall I'm necessarily pointing and comparing you to some average. Similarly if you call Britain racist you are implicitly comparing it to other nations otherwise its meaningless.
@@garyg.782 No I’m not comparing it to anything, I’m just stating what I believe to be true because I have experienced it myself. If it makes people feel better the thought that it’s not too bad because other countries are worse on this issue, then be my guest. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
@@mayafreeman7614 you experiencing racism doesn't make Britain racist. There will always be racist people throughout the world. Your standard for what makes a nation racist is absurd.
Cant we rise and reach higher than our ancestors? Does it have to be that the victims of the past have to breed more victims and the opressors have to breed more opressors? Does the son and the daughter have to be the same as the mother and father? The activist says we have to ACTIVELY fight our prejudice. Dont you think that distancing ourselves from the notion of race would diminish racism? Doesnt maximizing racial rethoric bring back a tribalistic nature that took a millenia to supress. Whats the problem really? Now i know that i am a racist because someone told me so, better start behaving like one before the tide changes. Unbelievable. The distortion we live in is collossal. To me this juxstaposes with leaders telling people for more than a year to stop living their lives and then being bombarded by publicity to buy, buy buy consume, your best state of being is more akin of an addict. Whatever the motive, good or bad this stretching and desintegration of humans has to lead to actually insanity. Also all the intelectual talk feels pointless. I know people THAT grew up coping with hunger, domestic abuse, school humiliation by their peers, cancer at the age of 31 with no means to even aliviate their misery and now i have to remenber this person wich had such a miserable life that couldnt even have the privilege to be prejudicial as a racist. To me this is just unquestionably a cancer in our society, its self destruction to the core. What about the people? What about the ones that have to constantly fight for surviving even? Do you aproach a white homeless man that has to take a medicine he camt afford and say to him, sir you have to pay and atone to the racism of the country that never even gave you a chance. Wake up, this is not the way. This is not even a close diagnose. And if you claim fundamental you cant make concessions, ornit is totally or it isnt.
He's the worst kind of race baiting money grubbing faux academic making a lucrative career out of his 'oppression' in this horrid white country. I'm sure he thinks it would be far better off it were a black Wakanda instead. 🤢
The level of conditioning of some white people is so intense and so thorough that they can not bear a second to allow themselves to understand something from another perspective
And that's why we see the negative comments. Tearing so many from there culture has led to them losing themselves. This is the fragility, the inability to recognize that we are one, what you do to another you do to yourself.
@@meanscene914 The only culture I have ever known is of American loving, freedom loving Americans holding up America as a bastion of freedom and liberty. This is the America you live in as well. Why do you want to tear this system down? It is the most free country on the planet, why tear it down? Quit dividing people based on their damned skin color, it's racist as hell and you are only dividing people who live in harmony otherwise.
Kehinde's numbers are way off, current estimates of Hispaniola population pre-Columbus are 125,000 not 8 million, that number is so off I've never even seen it until today. Also, the mid-estimate of natives who died due to Eurasian diseases is not 68 million, that's the high estimate, the mid is 30 million. And his estimates of slave trade are triple what most historians estimate; he says 36 million, most historians say 12-15 million. I'm not sure where he's getting his numbers from, but they are definitely exxaggerated. The numbers are still bad of course, but there's no need to inflate wildly crazy numbers to prove a point. I appreciate that Jeremy called out some of the more egregious examples.
Racism is fundamental to human history. However, the west also has an extensive history of exceptional violence in subjugating other races, abusing their position of power far beyond that of other countries. I remember the racist rhetoric that came up when japan was the number two economy. I remember the anti muslim rhetoric that justified the iraq war. If the west isn't fundamentally racist, the west is at least ruled by fundamentally racist leaders
Rhetoric isn't violence you numpty. And you are showing your very narrow recent view of history. Try looking up Attila The Hun, Genghis Khan, the Mughals in India, African tribal history, the cannibals, the massacres, the wars. Seriously you have no idea what you're talking about. The West is the most progressive, benevolent 'empire' in history.
@@mogznwaz LOL benevolent, spare me your lies. Slavery, forced famines, colonization, genocide and exploitation of capitalism when all the others stop working. You were never benevolent.
It was good to finally see someone call professor Andrews out on his continued call for revolution. He has stated this many times, without challenge. Revolutionaries always see the flaws of the current world and promise a better one; they've never delivered on those promises.
It took all that to finally get to his point. Liberalist Values, the values that built the greatest societies the world has ever known, is the problem... Thank you. You say 9 million people die every year of hunger... how many died of hunger prior to the enlightenment? Yes, children die in countries that haven't done what the west has done. You want to tear that down... that's insane.
The argument of why didn't Europeans fight in the Colonies? We did , but it's easier to fight as European power in Europe on European soil. It's simple logistics Beat France in a war in Normandy sign a peace treaty that give "X" colony to the UK.
As you might have guessed by my name I've been having this conversation my entire life but know that when you can finally stop having this conversation you will have actually made some progress because this is not our biggest problem it's far from it but it sure is a good distraction for keeping us from focusing on what is
Which good points. He spent the whole conversation cherry picking, strawmanning, then gaslighting. He provided no new information. He didn't even refute the empirical data put in front of him.
The title of the debate is wrongly stated. Yet proponent is forced to adhere to it. Kehinde was starting to take insightful approach but was stopped just so he could keep the argument in the same lane as the title. Stop blaming him
I used to think the left was Marxist-socialist, though that is not correct anymore. Marxist socialists divide the world up along economic lines- the proletariat versus the bourgeoisies; the modern left divides the world up along racial lines and views everything through the lens of race. That makes them more ideologically similar to the national socialists.
I think Mr. Andrews understanding of China is a bit out of date. It's probably been a more than a decade since China had four hundred million people in poverty. And while China certainly is looking to Africa for opportunities of obtaining resources, at least at this point it doesn't seem to be as coercive a relationship as that between the Western colonial powers and Africa. Though to be fair, the same could probably be said of the Portuguese when they first started establishing themselves on the continent. We'll know more in a century or two.
Even though I broadly agree with Jeremy's position, his reasoning was very much lacking. He argued very personally, with what felt like a very patronising attitude. Kehinde had one strong point that he made perfectly well that Jeremy failed to address time after time, instead going after fairly inconsequential inaccuracies in statistics, bits of historical context (which is good and well, but here wasn't always on point) and more importantly, he barely touched on what the West fundamentally is, if not racist, and if the West is fundamentally anything at all. He never even gave his own definition of the West, so the two were basically arguing about different things.
It serves to be patronising in the face of such blatant ahistorical and politically coloured drivel! Let's call it what it is. It is an absolute disgrace that Kehinde Andrews is seen as an academic authority when he espouses such clear biased readings and untruths for the sake of political ideology. And I certainly agree that we should explore history from different viewpoints, not solely from "the West", but what he is doing ain't it. As for Black needing to offer his own view on what the West is: perhaps. But that wasn't the discussion, the claim was that the West is inherently racist, as offered by Andrews. And it isn't. Not significantly more or less than any other tribe that has ever had the pleasure of inhabiting this planet. The onus wasn't on Andrews to offer an alternate explanation on what the West actually is, but to debate the veracity of Andrew's claim. Humans are racist, and they are also not. What matters is to steer towards the latter while we stay ever vigilant of the former.
It's not like it is any different in the east. Each country despises some other country and their people. It's just that for you, "the west" is the only place that exists/matters.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn you’re not getting his point . Ifiwasonlyadragon is arguing that the western world isn’t fundamentally racist as Kehinde is arguing . After all , if our civilisation is inherently racist , why did things get better in the past 70-200 years ???
Both speakers made some good points. I would have liked the debate to be more focused on enlightenment values. It's here we see how these values define today's modern liberal capitalist worldview, how some of these values are problematic, whilst some can be salvaged. For example, Kehinde is right, there are racist biases which make up the modern worldview and system, but Jeremy is also right that there are some complexities other than race that need to be addressed. We definitely need reevaluation and further discussion on enlightenment values but I do believe there is a reluctance to admit this especially amongst modern liberal societies.
Actually anybody who speaks of race is wrong (completely wrong). Everyone needs to see Spencer Wells "the Journey of Man - a Genetic Odyssey". Everybody's heard it before and it sounds a little cliche to say there's only one race the human race but do you really believe it when you hear it or when you say it? I think most do not it just sounds good so they throw it out there hoping it'll do some good but they don't really believe it because it's so ingrained into our Collective conscience. I bet most don't aware of the population bottleneck about 60,000 years ago that took the global population from Millions maybe even tens of Millions down to as few as 5,000 individuals worldwide and it wasn't like evenly distributed it was most likely all in one area which would make everybody brothers and sisters literally and every human alive today is more closely related than two birds sitting side by side the branch in the tree in your front yard because that's what happens when you're a few thousand individuals away from distinction that bottleneck makes us all more closely related than anybody realizes. What I'm wondering is why black people don't recognize relate to and embrace their whiteness considering 2/3 of African Americans have greater than 1/3 DNA and you don't have to believe me and I'm not here to argue about it if you have problems with the numbers take it up with Oprah they're her numbers. We all started in Africa the original color was black those who Moved far from the equator suffered from vitamin D deficiency had to shed melanin rapidly or sephor all kinds of problems from not being able to absorb enough vitamin D or we would still all be black. That black pigment in your skin makes it dark melanin is Nature's UV protection but since vitamin D comes from UVB some superficial changes needed to occur and with nature being the efficiency expert she is that was the easiest route and it worked wonderfully and if we were like all other mammals we'd be sniffing each other's asses instead of looking at each other's skin so just consider yourself lucky you don't have to do that. You see with black being the original color it's going to be dominant most of the time how often have you seen an interracial couple have a baby that looks White not very often right that doesn't mean they're not Part White it just means you can't tell by looking at them so maybe we need to quit being so shallow and superficial and look a little further than just our skin color because if that's all that defines us then that's just a damn shame. Ignorance is not Bliss it's just ignorance but knowledge truly is power for those who will take the time and put in the effort to acquire it and it's not that damn difficult so if it's important to you that there's no discrimination understand there is no racism there's simply tribalism the mother is of all other isms and it comes in many different manifestations but amounts to a preference for ones own group which is quite normal and quite expected and part of the human condition so it's not going anywhere because it served us well for a very long time in the distant past when a stranger danger actually made sense and the only way to really truly deal with any of this is to undo that rectal cranial inversion (head up ass) everybody's been suffering so badly from and stick it in a book instead and educate yourself so you can't be manipulated and controlled by some white liberals looking to play you for some votes (again). ua-cam.com/video/W_xTG6VXlIQ/v-deo.html Do yourselves in everyone else a big favor and take the time to understand this because it makes a big difference (all the difference in the world)
Good summary. It prompts me to ask a simple question (which I would have loved to ask of the debaters in the video.) How and why is it that a Nigerian immigrant, or an Indian immigrant, or a Chinese immigrant, or Iranian, Somalian, Brazilian, and so on and so forth - can rise up whatever ladder they choose, succeed, fail, do whatever they do, and not lather up their entire life's enterprise by claiming a predominantly white monolithic presence prevented them? Which makes me think - it's not the ones who succeed that are the only proof of this attitude, perhaps it's the ones who fail to some degree, that prove it even more. We can fall back on that old - well it was a different history, and slavery, and this and that and the other, don't you know. But skin is skin is skin. And its color has never, (sadly) mattered more. And that is the basic and fundamental foundation of racist attitude. The British were just as disgusted by their dusky Indian "wogs" as white Americans were by their (fill in the blank.) Britain is now chock full of successful and accepted Indians. Time changes things. People do improve. But then again, I have noticed occasionally online, some pretty wicked stuff expressed by Asians (especially women.) A curious thing. Gets me wondering if there aren't very specific reasons for that - which makes their take an understandable thing, to some degree. America (and now much of the west) has fallen into the habit of growing a distinct and dynamic exceptionalism. We are the best. A thing often discovered and brought up in global, international women's feminist conferences, for example. Much to the chagrin of many non-western women. So by comparison, the west can also grow a terrific sense of ownership of racism. We do it so much better, and so on. Only we don't. We do get big on ourselves, sometimes. A little humility can work wonders.
@@burleybater Well I think one of the points made in this debate is that racism is bigger and broader than just skin. Skin colour comes largely from eugenics. Eugenics still has a legacy and role in today's society (there is a good talk on this I'm happy to share if you want), however, I'll agree it's not as prevalent. For example, we have a South Asian descended prime minister here in Britain. So skin colour is less of a thing but still a thing (look at historian David Starkey's recent comments). But racism is still prevalent. It's less about skin colour and more about culture/ideology. Perhaps we should call it something else. But the reason why it fits with racism is because it follows the same structural violence that racism adheres to. That was the main point I got from this debate and topic; that the modern Western conception of the world (adopted by white and non-white groups) looks at other/alternative worldviews as inferior and so systematically destroys or assimilates them. This affects both individuals and societies. So to answer your question, I think certain individuals and groups (who do not follow the modern Western worldview) often feel the structural pressure to conform, and if they do not, they are at a disadvantage. They feel it and refer to it as racism. Hope that makes sense.
If our skin colour can explain most our human hates, the earth would be a lot more peaceful. Everyone just like their neighbors, usually people of their same skin colour.
Yes, I am racist and I instinctively know that anto White Andrew doesn't have my people's interests at heart. So why would I not dislike anything he has to say?
Mr Jeremy Black is unbelievably condescending in the way he portrays his ideas about racism. I got the impression that he does not comprehend what racism is in whatever form; historical, ethical, commercial, mutual interrelationship - in every whatever aspect, he has not the faintest idea or even a modicum of depth of knowledge of the subject. He failed to comprehend the central point that Kehinde Andrews proposed that racism today has its roots in history which is so firmly implanted in modern society that there is nothing one can do to debunk the western attitude to racism.
Note that the history of racism is always eurocentric. History in the west is always going to be focused on the west for obvious reasons, but what that means is that the history of X that you learn about will actually be the history of western x. So the history of science is often seen to have started around the time of the renaissance even though it was thriving in the muslim world and in the far east for much longer, the history of civilisation will be seen to have started with the greeks even though it existed in the middle east thousands of years before the greeks, the history of slavery is often seen to have started with the atlantic slave trade when in reality slavery was as old as civilisation and europeans didnt start civilization. So yes racism as seen in the west is seen to have started in the west, not because it actually did, racism has likely always existed in some form or another but because people dont really care about non western history which is a shame because in the end it just takes away what you can learn from humanity as a species rather than a set of races. Racism is not unique to the west in any way shape or form but what is unique is its acceptance and support of people of difference backgrounds despite history.
@@lewis5384 Dear sir, I enjoy reading your analysis of history. Society does not stay still but changes with time and we all know this. But individuals as you or I are but atoms in an ocean of dynamic time. Recall someone said there no such thing as society - how wrong she was; and equally absurd when one says its the end of history. But all in all its me, you and the person next to me right now is what matters. I enjoy others company, a joke, a laugh over a glass of beer, and racialism goes out the window. Life is wonderful, life is worth living. As I said our every breadth is but a fickle and might just extinguish without notice. Given that scenario, we can be nothing but brothers and sisters being in love! When the eyes speak, race does not matter.
I am American. Columbus is no where near the most revered historical figure in our country. I doubt he is top 50. Not saying he is not revered and its a minefield. But no he is not close to number 1
@@CaribbeanQueen07 It has been refocused in many areas. Columbus has no connection to the United States. He was a Italian explorer who was in the service to the Spanish Crown. He never set foot in the North America, bar maybe Florida. The colonies that would become the United States wouldn't be founded until over a hundred years after his voyage. No he is not, believe me. Pilgrims have more significance. And believe me they did some terrible things as well.
Both of these (erudite) speakers have cherry-picked bits of history and presented them in a very convincing way! Having said that, racism does exist in all places, wherever there is humanity! NO ONE is holier than thou...!!
Portuguese etc basically a lot of coastal euro nations was going to war with African tribes that was ran by women and to save their whole tribe they had to give pow they didn’t know what your ancestors would exactly do to other humans . To be honest it’s like saying which Jew sold another Jew to the Germans
Considering kehinde would still be living on the veldt hurling spears at his brothers , Rather that getting rich hating the system that educated him . I would consider we arent as racist as he wants us to be .
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Racism is not a western phenomenon. It is a human phenomenon. West happens to be foremost in recognising and correcting it.
It is actually. It was created by 18th century philosophers so they can justify slavery
@@MozzieMutant yeah racism was just whipped up in some philosophy text. it definitely was NOT evolutionary psychology
@@MozzieMutant, this is just a left wing cliche. Kenhide himself quotes Ibn Khaldun, a 14th century Arab, saying that Blacks weren't capable of advanced thought. You weren't paying attention.
@@MozzieMutant spoken like someone who has never read a history book. Or any book published before 1970
@@Ruairitrick that's not racism.
Kehinde has really moved the goalposts so far that now China is 'the west'
The West has dominated technology and cultural pretension across all the world for two centuries. Any society that progresses forward at this point is going to have to be undeniably influenced by the West. Non-Western societies that want to be relevant in the modern world are going to struggle with how much of today's reality is Western rather than just modern, and how much they can embrace without selling out their own culture. It doesn't mean that a country like China has to consider itself to be Western in order to be advanced. It can chart its own course, but it would be foolish to try to do so without taking advantage of the advances developed during the time of Western global dominance.
Because they have shown you can drag 100s millions out of absolute poverty purely through copying capitalism.
Showing if sub-saharan Africa aren't doing that, it isn't the west's fault.
His definition of the West is "personal responsibility".
I'm just concerned for what he'll do when we run out of vinegar for the chip on his shoulder.
@@danielwebb8402 China didn't copy capitalism, they deployed it. It's one factor of the poverty alleviation program (primarily the funding engine), which is a state-controlled targeted social management program.
@@alanfriesen9837
Very true. And agree is a difference.
They've deployed / used is a much truer framing.
But the outcome has been they basically have no one in absolute poverty anymore. Within less than 2 generations it took them.
Ditto, but to a less extent, India has dragged 100s millions out of absolute poverty in the past 30 years. Now have a middle class that can afford Pepsi (hence their cricketers earn $$). And they were a colony until the middle of last century.
So why can't Zimbabwe copy India? Why can't Ghana copy China? Was what I was trying to say.
@gerard dearie They weren't dominant in continental Asia and Japan until the 1800's.
How on earth can anyone think that Columbus is the most revered person in the US? He ranks far behind the founding fathers - Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson et al. How can you talk about Manchester and cotton and not talk about the cotton famine and how Lincoln sent a letter thanking the people of Lancashire for their support.
An historical figure that got on a boat and sailed towards the unknown and changed the world. Nothing to respect about that. I summarily declare so because incongruences with my contemporary worldview.
Hiss, hiss, Christopher Columbus! I biteth my thumb toward thee. You're not great. Look at me.
I would go so far as to say that no one reveres Columbus.
There is no Benjamin Franklin Day in the US, likewise George Washington Day or Thomas Jefferson Day. There is a Columbus Day. This is maintained despite the deep discomfort it brings to First Nations people, who still suffer (those who are left) hugely as a result of his so-called discovery. If he is not of any importance, it seems strange that he is still celebrated with a holiday.
@@headgirlblues There is a 4. of July which celebrates all of them.
@@superkjell Independence Day 4th July? Thats some reach you have there
"Is the west the most racist". Bruh Africa is 10x more racist than the west, infact a lot of other ares are way more racist like the balkans, poland, africa. It's a human thing, not a western thing.
Africa is actually one fo the least racists continents. Asians are the most racists.
@@garyg.782 It's not the least racist continent. For example the sudan war was started because christain africans and muslim africans didn't like each other. Mugabe evicted white farmers just because they were white, even though they were supplying the region with food. Even American slavery was able to happen because african warlords at that time were selling other africans to us.
@@floater7082 a conflict between two different religions isn't evidence of racism. Mugabe removing the descendants of colonialists who still dominate his nation economically is not racism either.
@@garyg.782 It is if the war is because of race. Also yes removing white farmers is racism. Their was no point behind it because those farms were literally feeding the country and when the white farmers got removed everyone suddenly wanted them back. Their was no logical thinking behind the decision, really I can only come to the conclusion is that the decision was made because they were white farmers.
@@garyg.782 Also you act as if the white farmers were just taking from the country, when they were actually the ones supplying the country with food.
No. Next question.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Nice to see a lotus-eater veteran
Yes
5 minutes in and I'm bored with Kehinde's waffle and it's obvious where he is going.
Weak intellectuals like Kehinde love pontificating about revolution, but they expect others to fight it for them. He's "an ideas man," also known as a coward. Also, he gets trashed in every debate I've seen him in.
He's a wimp and a poor representation of black people, I can't stand his victim mentality
Isn't that the usual case? Some left wing middle class or priestly intellectuals become dissatisfied with a regime, so they start writing books and pamphlets, stirring up the working classes, of whom they don't give a tom tit, justt jumping on their corpses to squash them as they die in the resulting revolutions so that they can climb up to the top and become the new ruling elite.
French revolution. Russian revolution, Iranian revolution ... it's always the same.
@Neach ie I haven't a clue as to what you're on about. Zzzzzz!
@Neach ie Let me put it this way, you clueless woke little Hampton, who is probably still at school and has never fended for itself in the world yet, but rages against others:
It doesn't matter what the colour, fire starters like your little woke colleague in this video are the ones who fire the verbals and turn people against each other whilst they sit back and watch others spill the blood. That's not *romance*, that's *fact!*
And seeing as you have your rose-tinted spectacles on why don't you look at other oppressors who are not white.
What about the Arab tribes who were slave trading in Africa, long before European ever started empires there. What about the Japanese who viewed all other races as inferior and murdered millions from the 20's to the 40's? How about Chairman Mao who murdered millions of his own? Idi Amin? What about the Hindu, discriminatory caste system? Pol Potts - ever heard of him?
People are allowed their opinions and we don't need permission from the likes of bigots like you who are the real racists because that's all you ever talk about and only ascribe discrimination to in your little pseudo Eden.
Now why don't you do something constructive like go and get a job (that's if you are old enough, otherwise stop bothering me you little strop.)
@@oleggorky906 what is a strop?
Khendie Andrews - "the state of the world is the worst its ever been" yes Khendie, it's much worse in 2021 than 1621 so much worse (sarcasm)
The very ironic thing is that the world is actual a net better than they have ever been due to western civilisation (albeit not perfect).
Thing is , Kehinde is a critical race theorist , he isn’t here to build bridges only ideological dominance.
False... climate change is fitting to take us to extinction in the next couple hundred years.
And don’t even get me started on other man made environmental catastrophes.
@@wexpmedia5889 source for that? Couple hundred years seems a bit silly.
@@JohnSmith-iu3ui is it? We are approaching environmental global destruction and wealth/land has never been so unequally distributed...
"You say you want a Revolution, well you know... we'd all love to see the plan."
Yep. He knows he hates it the way it is, but he made no suggestions about what he would replace it with.
Eighty-two per cent of victims on the London Underground and 70 per cent of victims on commuter railways around London also identified their muggers as black.
Ten years to grow a tree, but one hundred years to bring up a generation of good men.
the quote of the second president of America John Adams, Letters of John Adams, Addressed to His Wife :"I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.”
What a beautiful quote. I always liked Adams, a truly underappreciated American president.
Easy times make weak men.
I would rather discuss how can the West be better for ALL of its citizens. This rehashing traumatic points in our history without providing solutions is fruitless, in my opinion.
Exactly!
How about "How can a continent in the eastern hemisphere be "The West"?
What I want to know is, if black people are treated so bad in white countries, why stay? They say it's always been terrible and oppressive and unjust and racist and that white people are inherently racist and can't change - so why try? Doesn't that just prove that multicultural multiracial societies don't work? Protesting will achieve nothing if that is the case. So why stay more than 1 generation? Why come at all? No-one is forcing them to stay and be oppressed. Apparently black people were so amazing they built the West and without them we'd be nothing. So why not go to Africa and turn it into Wakanda without any horrid white people interfering? it would be the pinnacle of human civilisation surely? If the West never felt like home and can never be home WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE? If reparations should occur, perhaps it could be a free plane ticket to Africa. Otherwise STFU. I love black people who see through all this bull and accept this is a white majority culture and society. If I go live in Japan I wouldn't expect complete and utter equality with the locals, I am the stranger. If I live in Nigeria why would I complain there's not more white people in the Nigerian parliament or Nigerian soap operas?
What I think is really going on is a push for power. Numbers are rising, the West has become soft and weak, they don't want equality they WANT POWER. Just listen to some of the rhetoric. You could call it chickens coming home to roost and all that (although my ancestors were dirt poor farm peasants so not sure what I 'owe' anyone) but the end result would simply be all the achievements of the West being undone and we become an African/Middle Eastern version of society. No thanks.
@@mogznwaz exactly! But actually Liberia was given to afro Americans to move.
@@rohiths9099 Which gives them even less excuse to whine or pontificate about being 'African Queens' or some other bullshyte. Still feel pissed off about slavery and think America is evil? Then LEAVE. Personally I think they won the cosmic jackpot being American citizens. I bet millions would happily swap places with them.
It depends on the country (there is quite a few in the west) But they are not as racist as it is in Africa. So no trade was done with wool, coal, iron and did Britain also trade with countries in the east such as India, China? Sadly Kehinde seems to see everything through a black racist lens... I do try to listen to Kehinde but he conflates statistics with race and racism at a simplistic level without any proof or complexity..... All of the things that he attributes to what makes the difference of racism by the west are also used and deployed, sometimes more effectively, by other cultures.... he really is disingenuous to the point of dishonest. He does make a lot of money in the race-baiting areana
I can not express how much I love it that @ 43:57 even the host was clearly done with the blatant inequities in Kehinde's arguments and started correcting him.
Kehinde - simple answers to complex issues, err....... If I might, I'm going to opt-out to your revolution
Why did Kehinde miss the most salient point to confirm his point of view and that is Psychological conditioning, of entitlement, instilled domination of European group over the target. A sense of superiority was encouraged to reinforce dominance over the targeted group, to generate security, maximize submissive behavior and efficient productivity. PAL (Pared Associated Learning was applied where the targeted group must always be seen in an undesirable condition.- Controlling group must always be seen in a favorable light.
Result - the victim will ultimately lose the sense of self-worth, try to emulate his oppressor which will always lead to the following conditions: (a) Low or NO Group and Self Esteem followed by (b) Self-hate, Depression, Self-oppression, Psychic Trauma, finally ultimate individual and group self-destruction. That combination manifests into a sense of what is now known as racism ( dominance entitlement superiority ) throughout the colonial European culture and rapidly spread through all of Europe.
What ever the historical & legacy flaws are, we abandon the values of the Enlightenment at our peril.
Abandonment would be implausible . The moment you accept the primacy of reason and empirical observation you’ve become a flag bearer of the enlightenment .
@@Jide-bq9yf Happy to bear that flag anytime!
@@MrVincehalloran you can say that again. I had to edit my comment I was expressing an essential support of yours rather clumsily .
missing the intelligence part with this one
I just came here to say no it isn't. I'll be going now.
You need to read Robin DeAngelo's book "White Fragility"! I bet that it will help you better identify your true enter feelings.
@@thomasreaves588 any book you suggest I read, I ain't going to read. I'm not listening to you.
@@thomasreaves588 Lol!
@@thomasreaves588 May god have mercy on your soul
@@thomasreaves588 White Fragility is a book written by a white woman to profit off the pain of POC. Literally the WORST reading suggestion you can give, and I probably agree with you on most things.
Take a look around. Which countries have the most diversity and which ones have the least. There you go. Obsession over race is a western issue yes, but only because it is working hard to push for equality whilst other nations do not care.
Odd thing for systemically racist country to do, I must say.
Calling Westerns racist is the ploy to silence our dissent against being ethnically replaced by another people.
We never consented to this.
Surinam was a Dutch colony in which slavery was brutally practised, BUT the Dutch also allowed for Hindu laborers, Indonesian ones, etc to live there. The fact that other cultures may exist in one place does not make the place less racist. It means that those people are allowed there to fullfill their service which is always to bring in money (pay taxes at the very least). That's the expectation at least. Reality has shown that this is being contradicted by the fact that housing companies often lump them together in ghettos which prohibits them form integrating properly, because you can't integrate when you're not around the people native to the land. And if you're also denied work due to your ethnicity (which also happens), you'll never integrate properly. But people rather say that immigration is to blame rather than admitting that the way they went about it was completely inadequate.
Nonsense. People live with people like themselves out of choice, not because some housing company puts them there (what a bizarre claim!). And this is the case for the overwhelming number of immigrants and even descendants of immigrants. The time for them to assimilate has long passed,.and is now nothing more than a hopeless dream.
@@h____hchump8941 That isn't true. They get appointed houses with urgency so they don't have to wait for years on a home like the rest of us. You can argue that they can rent homes for a much higher price from individual real estate agents, but even they have certain criteria for whom they rent houses to. Nevertheless those houses are always more than 20% more expensive than renting from normal housing companies (their minimum prices average at 1000 euros while renting from a regular company can cost you around 500 euros).
The decendants of immigrants are another case completely. They do get proper housing from those companies, because they can wait 5-7 years to be appointed a house or they can buy. Nevertheless, they still had to spend their formative years in ghettos which provides an plethora of problems of which you're not too dumb to figure out what those are. We also see that non whites have more trouble with finding jobs. We also know that (in my country) the teachers tend to send them a lower advice for follow up schools than their grades allow (this has been proved in MY country) and was a big talking point during the last elections. The problem with enrolling students in much too easy classes is that you're not properly preparing them for society, which isn't easyt at all. The skills to adjust to increasingly difficult situations (which is aqcuired in school) is not aqcuired then and what do we see: they get bored in class, start to bore others, get expelled and become destined to fail. This wasn't a conscious decission. We're talking about children, after all. The system has betted against them (by purposely downplaying their abilities) and WE are now paying the consequences. Again, this might be different where you live, but you might recognize at least a bit of it.
Answer: Every living creature wants to live with The People Of The West. Case closed.
That's simply false. Every living creature wants the living standards that the west has developed through exploitation. It's not western people themselves they're in love with 😂😂
@@garyg.782 that’s true , but it is also free .
The actual historian is just shaking his head the whole time.
“Actual”. You have exposed yourself.
@Neach ie
How recent?
That's messed up.
Your English is a bit incoherent there, nevertheless the points you're making, from what's actually comprehensible, are absolutely ridiculous.
What you're essentially saying is that you believe in inherited guilt, the acceptance of fact without proficient evidence and a concept of shared guilt by involuntary group affiliation.
@Neach ie Re: your point about historians. You're objecting to the views of a particular, present-day historian on the basis of the aggregate tendencies of scientists and historians in the past. That's dumb. Why not critique the points he actually made?
They were both a bunch of idiots whistling in the wind: Kehinde Andrews missed the most important point to confirm his point of view and that is Psychological conditioning of entitlement was instilled in the dominant European group. A sense of superiority was encouraged to reinforce dominance over the targeted group, to generate security, maximize submissive behavior and efficient productivity. PAL (Pared Associated Learning was applied where the targeted group must always be seen in an undesirable condition.- Controlling group must always be seen in a favorable light.
Result - the victim will ultimately lose the sense of self-worth, try to emulate his oppressor which will always lead to the following conditions: (a) Low or NO Group and Self Esteem followed by (b) Self-hate, Depression, Self-oppression, Psychic Trauma, finally ultimate individual and group self-destruction. That combination manifests into a sense of what is now known as racism ( dominance entitlement superiority ) throughout the colonial European culture and rapidly spread through all of Europe.
Sorry but I just can't listen to Kehini Andrews. Not even if it's to see his dumb arguments destroyed. He's such a horrible little victim. Vile man. And the constant " I know it all, and I'm always right " smirk he has on his face just brings out the worst in me.
And his voice is beyond irritating.
I wonder what mr andrews is gonna say, as if I didn’t know already!
Huge surprise that the uneducated "everyone but me is racist" side was defended.
Is it even worth watching this or can I just predict what they’re gonna day and do something actually useful with my hour instead?
The one that you would expect goes on with bad takes on history and whines collectively for an hour trying to accept no responsibility. The other is an actual historian
Honestly, just go about your day. You’re right, these guests are so predictable, nobody is interested in learning from anybody else. It’s tiring to watch.
@@Typhoon860 Yeah he should have accepted responsibility for what an entire civilization does, and oh yeah act like racism is unique to one civilization.
@gerard dearie the burden of proof is on Andrews and Black disproves everything he says and then some.
He also gives us a solution that doesn't involve a revolution presumably drowning the western world in white people's blood and the proclamation of a doomed Black USSR
So glad I found this question.
Absolutely no concept of world's history. Columbus was thousands of years after Greek and Roman empire slavery - no colour prejudice needed, they made white, brown, yellow or black into slaves! The worst groups guilty of enslaving Africans, were other African tribes who captured and sold their 'enemies.' White men didn't need to catch them, all of that work was done for them by fellow Africans. That's right black lives were traded by other black men. Get you facts right. What's more, the British Empire (in particular) was still in operation when they outlawed slavery around the turn of the 18th to 19th century, and yet the USA kept slavery going for another 150 years, and after the American civil, the north American racial discrimination continued at a clip... could it be that ethnic communities, black, brown, yellow or white, are zoning areas for people who struggle to get out of their rut? Systematically, groups of people and their tribalism is Birmingham, London, Glasgow, Belfast, and on and on hold back this communities.
You can do better iq squared
Yes, it's lack of accountability for it is the basis for so many ills, nothing can change without reconciling this.
"It [our society] is as awful as it's ever been". Really...?
Methinks the race baiter sees racism everywhere. It keeps him in a job.
Voltaire’s Ghost, where art thou?
I am afraid that they have performed an exorcism upon it. 😲😲
I love that guy !
He is alive an kicking, with awesome videos released every two weeks or so ...
Jeremy Black won.
Why do you keep having Kehinde in your debates? He's so intellectually dishonest.
In a way, I wish the world - and human relationships - were as simple as Kehinde seems to believe. But I'm just not seeing it, and if his approach is indeed overly-reductive, it won't help create a more just society, which is, as far as I'm concerned, the goal. Venting has its place, but the priority should be the achievement of actual, measurable progress.
He has a tendency to conflate lots of information and ending up mistaking correlation for causation. This projects the impression that he processes information in ways that confirm his predispositions (i.e.confirmation bias), instead of allowing the evidence to lead him to the best available version of the truth.
Why not ask: are humans inherently racist? .... why just the West? There have been racist behaviors on hundreds of cultures around the whirl and through history...
Here is a better question: is the topic of this debate discriminatory against the West?
If we are inherently racist then protesting is not going to change anything and will only lead to either war or repatriation, voluntary or otherwise.
I think that that is an excellent hypothesis to debate about as well.
The Benin bronzes are spectacular, but the sculptures from the Parthenon in Athens are even better.
And it was Pheidias wot carved them, mate. And we no that cause they had writing.
Athens is the "West?" I thought it was the Balkan Other.
@Nick Bointon No the oldest bronzes were made pre renaissance. The terra-cotta of the Nok I think are spectacular. Im also not sure if they made bronze castings as well either. They lasted from about 1500 BC to 500 AD.
No mention of Sowell. how can kehinde defend himself without arguing against him?
Kehinde is a radical making plenty of extreme generalizations and is jumping to baseless conclusions, ignoring any nuance and facts that would complicate his flawed assertions.
"Poor people in China are poor because they're brown". This should appear on the dust jacket of Kehinde's book to indicate the absurdity of the mind that wrote it and the probable absence of value in its content.
A racist naturally can’t understand what racism is:
Kehinde Andrews is basically the black Nick Griffin.
Except much worse and overt.
Snowflake
@@MozzieMutant you’ve got to do better than that, you can’t just copy a right wing meme that died in 2017 and have that as your contribution
I'm glad Kehinde acknowledged that not every white person is racist. I hope some of us can be spared at least long enough to lend support to the revolution.
Personally I feel Kenhinde Andrews is one of the most unbearable people on the planet, he’s so negative and seems to find racism in everything if anything he pushes it because let’s be honest if he didn’t he would have to get a real job to make ends meet!
Stick to the arguments not the person, that's a kop out. What in his argument is factually inaccurate. Also its just lazy to say he's only saying this things for personal pleasure.
Snowflake
One thing that is troubling about folks like Professor Andrews is the way he is committed the historical erasure regarding the role Africa, and diverse nonWestern peoples, played in slavery historically. This is a terrible violence to history, and to education.
It is also simply, manipulative as well as mendacious.
Absolutely. For all the wishful ahistorical thinking of these folks, with their pan-africanism and black brothers and sisters desire, African people and states sold out their own undesirables to Atlantic slavery. Not to mention the genocides they carried out on their own.
And that is besides clear racism outside the West, indeed. But according to wizkid Andrews it was actually worse in the west because they made it political, and obviously the non-western folks never included racism in their politics and policies.
Absolute drivel.
According to Kehinde western racism is actual pure evil and still ever present because it got political, and all the non-western folks clearly didn't make their racism political? Despite non-western states also engaging in slave trade and exploitation of specific (ethnic) minorities?
Like, how the f does that work. How do you not see the inherent contradiction in that. That is exactly how you know the guy is just politically motivated and blind to actual truth.
I'll also just repost what I posted earlier, maybe you'll find it interesting:
What I also find an interesting reading, is how much Kehinde's view hinges on the underlying firm belief that history as it has unfolded is the only way it could've unfolded. Therein lies the dangerous, tacit implication that European dominance and African subjugation were inescapable eventualities.
Now there are many possible explanations why certain tribes thrive while others do not, and yes geography and climate do play a part in that; but on the whole, this reading is absolute nonsense. Human history could've unfolded an untold amount of ways, but it has as it did and so it is.
I do not believe he intended this particular reading, but taking what he says as the political messaging it actually is, what he intends is to frame history and the current political reality as: (white) Europeans are evil oppressors by nature, and (sub-Saharan) Africans (continent or diaspora) and other minorities are innocent victims that need see that inherent evilness and resist (and fight back).
His thinking is so inherently biased a certain way, it is not even funny. It is weaponising victimhood, clothing yourself in hypocritical moral righteousness, with the goal to become a new sort of useless profiteer and oppressor. It is sheer malice.
Jeremy Black adequately and gracefully refutes this line of thinking by approaching history and the world as complex and multipolar, as any reasonable and fair human being should.
When you start your argument with a false Idea (Columbus is the most revered figure in the US) I can't get on board with anything following. That's really unfortunate.
Calling a Continent in the Eastern hemisphere "The West" is idiotic.
Anybody familiar with debate knows you only attack argue or when you no longer have anything to attack the argument with I recognize you just lost
@@Rob337_aka_CancelProof Can you please add punctuation or change lines per thought? Anyone familiar with language knows that the rules of language are used when you want to fully communicate your points.
Let's say instead of race we made it based on vulnerability because of differences in technical ability. I hardly think white people would have been able to subjugate black people or brown people if they were technologically equal during the time of colonialism. On the contrary I'm almost 100% certain if they were at the same technological level or higher at the time they would have been colonizing the new world and subjugating white people just exactly like it went down but with the colors reversed. It's about opportunistic behavior and exploitation but has nothing at all to do with race.
He'll add to that also that I'm pretty sure everybody already knows that and has turned this into some sort of Witch Hunt to game the system and try to leverage the victimhood status because they can. It's the white liberals actually put the pieces together so they could manipulate the emotions that we all have when we feel like we've been victimized and those two just like everything else are the same for all of us of all colors because we're exactly the same other than superficial aesthetic differences and cultural differences everything else is the same for all colors.
And I'm convinced so it's going to take more than trying to manipulate my emotions to change my mind, but give it a shot and see how well you do.
Also if there was a way to completely isolate Africa the whole continent The Agrarian culture will hardly change for centuries it's the problem of the low-hanging fruit not challenging people enough in Equatorial climates.
You have to ask yourself why over 100 Years of black progress between emancipation and Johnson's new deal has been so supressed through great effort?
Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, & Jason Riley already figured it all out for you and even published it for distribution, but nobody wants to hear the truth because personal responsibility asks a lot of the individual and if you're the author of your story and you fail then it's your fault and no one else
Both North and South America had civilisations before any were present in Europe. The fact that anyone calls it "The New World" is revolting. By the way, white people didn't exist in the Western hemisphere you idiot.
@@blitzofchaosgaming6737 every problem in your life is somebody else's fault you're fucked and have no control over your future cuz you're the only person on this planet you have any hope of Ever Changing victim status doesn't do you any favors it just makes you powerless. Go live alone in the wilderness or on a mountain somewhere by yourself for a year and if you have any problems at the end of that year you own them.
@@Rob337_aka_CancelProof So if I hit you with a car and you are in a coma for 13 months the last month is your fault? Or if I use my 2nd Amendment right and protect myself aggressively and an innocent bystander gets paralyzed they can only blame the situation for a year then its on them?
I don't see myself as a victim. But victims do exist, just as abusers do exist.
You for instance are a victim to thinking facts and opinions are equal.
Interesting comments. Thanks
Slavery was largely finished in the West by the time the West managed to subjugate any African nations militarily.
Didn’t the industrial revolution help end the economic need for slavery ?
What was Britain like before colonialism? Did the average citizen(or subject) have a high standard of living? Was it a wealthy nation before it engaged in all that international piracy, slavery and genocide?
Yes, it was compared to historical standards
And btw even after colonialism the average blue collar didn't have it really good
No better or worse than other european nations, I suppose.
It was invaded by a bunch of people called "Vikings". But they weren't racist, they were the same colour, they simply butchered and enslaved people in feudal Britain based on their... um... race. But nobody talks about Vikings, or about William the Conqueror, because their skin-colour would destroy the racist narrative.
@@mfoco1 What is the relation between racism and the Vikings ? Or William the Conqueror ?
No, we aren’t fundamentally racist, and racism is also not a ‘white-only’ phenomenon. Plenty of Africans are awful people as well, plenty of Indians dislike black people, and on and in it goes. Western countries are some of the few in the world where racism is actively discouraged through legislation so I would say that we see more of it here because we are constantly trying to regulate it (which is not bad).
It starts at 1:56
Kehinde Andrews missed the most important point to confirm his point of view and that is Psychological conditioning of entitlement was instilled in the dominant European group. A sense of superiority was encouraged to reinforce dominance over the targeted group, to generate security, maximize submissive behavior and efficient productivity. PAL (Pared Associated Learning was applied where the targeted group must always be seen in an undesirable condition.- Controlling group must always be seen in a favorable light.
Result - the victim will ultimately lose the sense of self-worth, try to emulate his oppressor which will always lead to the following conditions: (a) Low or NO Group and Self Esteem followed by (b) Self-hate, Depression, Self-oppression, Psychic Trauma, finally ultimate individual and group self-destruction. That combination manifests into a sense of what is now known as racism ( dominance entitlement superiority ) throughout the colonial European culture and rapidly spread through all of Europe.
White people in white Europe have a white culture and strong sense of self? Wow colour me shocked. I'm sure in Africa and Asia it's the complete opposite.
I watched this because I thought, "I see Kehinde all the time say everything is racist, but he only has a few minuets to fit into a TV segment when I do see him; it would be good to see his expanded arguments, and see the intellectual underpinnings, even if I know I'll disagree with most of them..." I feel sorry for Jeremy and Anne wasting their time to just have him say the word racist three times in every sentence. It was like listening to an Edward Said book, but written by a 6th-former who had a bit too much sugar in their meal beforehand...
Shut up you racist. If you can't understand the complexities of meaning within the word racist then you ain't got no business debating bruv.
No intellectual underpinnings required when you just spittin straight truth innit
@@cigh7445 You are a fascist.
PD. I'm black.
Yes I agree with you, his arguments jump all over the place, I don’t deny the history it happened but who captured black people to sell to white people er black people. I don’t believe in genetic pain. He talks about empire he talks about poor African countries. Yet Nigeria is one of the richest but… also the most corrupt
Bit underwhelmed by this moderator. Doesnt summarize the positions, doesnt ask probing questions, gets nervous when the debate gets even a little heated. ("Its pistols at dawn!!!")
Kehinde Andrews clearly has an agenda and grossly ignores and distorts evidence to fit his argument. Jeremy Black comes across as a much more nuanced historian.
Is there any statistics Andrews didn't lie about? There were 251k Food preparation and serving employees in NYC in 2015 and 1.88M African Americans with 12% unemployment rate. How half of 1M( generously assuming only 53% were employed) were employed in 251K position( disregarding that not all of 251K are in fast food)?
Upper estimate of Hispaniola population before 1492 is 750K, with conventional estimate of few tenth of thousands,. Nowhere near 8M that he clams.
Current estimates are that about 12M to 12.8M Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years, not
36M.
The World Bank Group estimates that 9.8M people in China live below international poverty line, nowhere near 400M that he clams.
The question in itself doesn't make much sens from a logical perspective. "Is the West fundamentally racist ?"
If the answer is yes, then there is two possibilities: the West is racist, and so is the rest of the world (therefore the question should be "are humans fundamentally racists ?") or the West is racist, and the rest of the world is not, which would imply that there is a fundamental difference between the West and the rest of the world, and ranking groups of people based on their ethnicity and/or geographical location is the very difinition of racism. Thus, "Is the West fundamentally racist" would be, purely technically speaking, a racist question asked by a westerner, hence the question would imply the answer.
The exact same thing could be said if the answer is no. If the West is not racist, what about the rest of the world ? If they are not, again, there's no need for a specific question related to the West. And if they are, then the question is a racist statement, and again, would lead to an obvious answer.
Take a logic class
@@pinecone421I'll need arguments, please.
This is so obvious, yet nobody seems to catch this. Dumb times we live in lol
@@alioshax7797 You don't give any grounds for any of your claims. So, I have good reasons to be skeptical of your claims.
Also if the West is uniquely and fundamentally racist then it is not going to change so protesting is pointless.
Fascinating debate between a historian and an identity politics activist. A must watch for people who are not educated about "Critical Theory" ideology. It is obvious in this interview how the likes of Kehinde Andrews see the world and history through a very distorted and divisive lens. There is a very big difference between making a lucid, honest Mea Culpa and tainting everything about the West as toxic.
Does the emphasis on racism as the main reason or biggest reason for economic and social discrimination, obscure the perhaps more complicated reasons for those problems?
It certainly does obscure the more complicated reasons. And sometimes it's used as a simplification to deliberately distract from these complicated reasons.
It's a smokescreen.
Does "different reasons" obscure racism?
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn the definition of "racism" obscures racism. E.g. too many insist that it's not possible to be racist against white people, not seeming to know nor care that this insistence itself is fundamentally racist. Bottom line, it's mostly identity-politics BS, and wokeism has morphed into a dangerous cult of terrorist proportions.
@@mfoco1 "Too many believe". The number of people who believe that you can only be racist against minorities, is smaller than the number of people who are actually racist. When you only care about racism when it is against white people, it undermines racism against white people.
Woke people are great, actually. We need more wokeness, and white people need more training. Wokeness is the only real contingency to keep white behavior in check, so I a for it based on that alone. Sure, some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Lastly, white identity politics created wokeness, was a response to it. White supremacy is the cause of all of our troubles. Get rid of it, and the symptoms go away. White identity politics is the original and true scourge.
So just to summarise: black and brown people are poor today on average - therefore the west and mainly capitalism is racist.
Did I get that right?
The first guy was such an extreme caricature of the kind of reductive, simplistic, Manichean, post-colonialist mindset which pretty much can be summed up as "white man bad" that it would make even Nicole Hannah-Jones (the author of the 1619 project) cringe. "The West was behind", huh? If it was so primitive what does it tell you about the state of the rest of the world if Europeans defeated pretty much all the cultures they encountered with such ease? Saying "Europe was inferior to other areas, which is why they could take over the world" is a statement that just doesn't make sense on any level.
It was inferior. The brutality required for conquer requires a mind that is closer to earlier, animalistic non-conscience/conscious thinking. It's why we say those who can't argue or debate without resorting to violence is wrong.
Some of these commenters are confused betweem racism and xenophobia. There are xenophobes everywhere. However, Western and Arab civilizations both used racism to justify slavery, which is why both civilizations have major and violent racism. Other civilizations have (even major) xenophobia, but they don't have deep seated hate based on skin color.
Please don't conflate darwinist eugenicism into "the west". We all know where that came from.
Yeesh, harsh, LOL. But you're right; such ideologies are not widespread.
What debate and argument is the presenter referring to? Anything that upsets the left is deleted immediately, here and on other sites.
C Columbus revered? Where is he living?
The reason why Jeremy Black is so rooted in his wilful ignorance is because he’d have to face his own mediocrity and inadequacies were he to acknowledge the systemic disparities that have favoured him for so long
I don’t understand why some people get so angry when it’s said that the west has a problem of racism. I have lived in Britain for 20 years and I’m the target of racism on a weekly basis. The fact that other parts of the world are also racist doesn’t make it any better!
But when you call a nation racist that has to be mean that its racist compared to other nations
@@garyg.782 No it doesn’t have to mean that. One nation’s racism problem has nothing to do with any other nation’s racism problem and the fact that there are many countries where racism is a problem, just makes the issue worse. It’s not a competition of who is less racist and in my opinion by trying to deal with this issue in this way just undervalues the stress and anxiety that being the target of racism gives you.
@@mayafreeman7614 if I call you tall I'm necessarily pointing and comparing you to some average. Similarly if you call Britain racist you are implicitly comparing it to other nations otherwise its meaningless.
@@garyg.782 No I’m not comparing it to anything, I’m just stating what I believe to be true because I have experienced it myself. If it makes people feel better the thought that it’s not too bad because other countries are worse on this issue, then be my guest. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
@@mayafreeman7614 you experiencing racism doesn't make Britain racist. There will always be racist people throughout the world. Your standard for what makes a nation racist is absurd.
Cant we rise and reach higher than our ancestors? Does it have to be that the victims of the past have to breed more victims and the opressors have to breed more opressors? Does the son and the daughter have to be the same as the mother and father?
The activist says we have to ACTIVELY fight our prejudice. Dont you think that distancing ourselves from the notion of race would diminish racism? Doesnt maximizing racial rethoric bring back a tribalistic nature that took a millenia to supress. Whats the problem really? Now i know that i am a racist because someone told me so, better start behaving like one before the tide changes. Unbelievable. The distortion we live in is collossal.
To me this juxstaposes with leaders telling people for more than a year to stop living their lives and then being bombarded by publicity to buy, buy buy consume, your best state of being is more akin of an addict.
Whatever the motive, good or bad this stretching and desintegration of humans has to lead to actually insanity.
Also all the intelectual talk feels pointless. I know people THAT grew up coping with hunger, domestic abuse, school humiliation by their peers, cancer at the age of 31 with no means to even aliviate their misery and now i have to remenber this person wich had such a miserable life that couldnt even have the privilege to be prejudicial as a racist.
To me this is just unquestionably a cancer in our society, its self destruction to the core. What about the people? What about the ones that have to constantly fight for surviving even? Do you aproach a white homeless man that has to take a medicine he camt afford and say to him, sir you have to pay and atone to the racism of the country that never even gave you a chance. Wake up, this is not the way. This is not even a close diagnose. And if you claim fundamental you cant make concessions, ornit is totally or it isnt.
Andrews is worried about losing his reason for being.
Ain't even a lie!
He's the worst kind of race baiting money grubbing faux academic making a lucrative career out of his 'oppression' in this horrid white country. I'm sure he thinks it would be far better off it were a black Wakanda instead. 🤢
The level of conditioning of some white people is so intense and so thorough that they can not bear a second to allow themselves to understand something from another perspective
And that's why we see the negative comments. Tearing so many from there culture has led to them losing themselves. This is the fragility, the inability to recognize that we are one, what you do to another you do to yourself.
America affords people of all races the most liberty focused lifestyle of any place on Earth. Period.
@@meanscene914 The only culture I have ever known is of American loving, freedom loving Americans holding up America as a bastion of freedom and liberty. This is the America you live in as well. Why do you want to tear this system down? It is the most free country on the planet, why tear it down? Quit dividing people based on their damned skin color, it's racist as hell and you are only dividing people who live in harmony otherwise.
Predicted outcome: Bigots - "Of course not, waffle, waffle, waffle... exceptionalism." Objective historians - "History would suggest it is."
Kehinde's numbers are way off, current estimates of Hispaniola population pre-Columbus are 125,000 not 8 million, that number is so off I've never even seen it until today. Also, the mid-estimate of natives who died due to Eurasian diseases is not 68 million, that's the high estimate, the mid is 30 million. And his estimates of slave trade are triple what most historians estimate; he says 36 million, most historians say 12-15 million. I'm not sure where he's getting his numbers from, but they are definitely exxaggerated.
The numbers are still bad of course, but there's no need to inflate wildly crazy numbers to prove a point. I appreciate that Jeremy called out some of the more egregious examples.
Jeremy very articulate, come with solutions for black people
Yes. Ignore white supremacy for personal gain.
The solution is simple: stop blaming others for your problems.
Exposing and counteracting white racism is a solution.
Racism is fundamental to human history. However, the west also has an extensive history of exceptional violence in subjugating other races, abusing their position of power far beyond that of other countries.
I remember the racist rhetoric that came up when japan was the number two economy. I remember the anti muslim rhetoric that justified the iraq war. If the west isn't fundamentally racist, the west is at least ruled by fundamentally racist leaders
Rhetoric isn't violence you numpty. And you are showing your very narrow recent view of history. Try looking up Attila The Hun, Genghis Khan, the Mughals in India, African tribal history, the cannibals, the massacres, the wars. Seriously you have no idea what you're talking about. The West is the most progressive, benevolent 'empire' in history.
@@mogznwaz LOL benevolent, spare me your lies. Slavery, forced famines, colonization, genocide and exploitation of capitalism when all the others stop working. You were never benevolent.
@@goldsilvervscrisiscollapse4320 Don't talk tosh. Wow you really have zero concept of nuance or reality do you
"You're a bad man" ... this is not an argument...I call this bad manners.
He isn't wrong
It was good to finally see someone call professor Andrews out on his continued call for revolution. He has stated this many times, without challenge. Revolutionaries always see the flaws of the current world and promise a better one; they've never delivered on those promises.
@@johnmarshall9575 they also, perversely, see themselves at the forefront in determining whatever system comes next.
It took all that to finally get to his point. Liberalist Values, the values that built the greatest societies the world has ever known, is the problem... Thank you. You say 9 million people die every year of hunger... how many died of hunger prior to the enlightenment? Yes, children die in countries that haven't done what the west has done. You want to tear that down... that's insane.
The poorest part of the world ....
Has a standard of living in excess of it did 100 years ago, 500 years ago pre imperialism
The argument of why didn't Europeans fight in the Colonies? We did , but it's easier to fight as European power in Europe on European soil. It's simple logistics Beat France in a war in Normandy sign a peace treaty that give "X" colony to the UK.
The Normans occupied England for quite some time. The Norman yoke !
This discussion drifted off topic but Jeremy Black made some very good points about the world.
As you might have guessed by my name I've been having this conversation my entire life but know that when you can finally stop having this conversation you will have actually made some progress because this is not our biggest problem it's far from it but it sure is a good distraction for keeping us from focusing on what is
Which good points. He spent the whole conversation cherry picking, strawmanning, then gaslighting. He provided no new information. He didn't even refute the empirical data put in front of him.
The title of the debate is wrongly stated. Yet proponent is forced to adhere to it. Kehinde was starting to take insightful approach but was stopped just so he could keep the argument in the same lane as the title. Stop blaming him
No. Move on
Majority of people commenting on youtube: I've clicked on this video with a pre-existing opinion not open to change or question.
Fact is the West is having a debate about it...well, one should knows the answer.
Which is ?
Short Answer: NO
Citations needed
Thank god for free speech as we get to hear how utterly ridiculous Khinde is.
I used to think the left was Marxist-socialist, though that is not correct anymore. Marxist socialists divide the world up along economic lines- the proletariat versus the bourgeoisies; the modern left divides the world up along racial lines and views everything through the lens of race. That makes them more ideologically similar to the national socialists.
I think Mr. Andrews understanding of China is a bit out of date. It's probably been a more than a decade since China had four hundred million people in poverty. And while China certainly is looking to Africa for opportunities of obtaining resources, at least at this point it doesn't seem to be as coercive a relationship as that between the Western colonial powers and Africa. Though to be fair, the same could probably be said of the Portuguese when they first started establishing themselves on the continent. We'll know more in a century or two.
Andrews has no clue what it is all about, he is playing around the edges on all front
Lastly, Black's entire stance was about his 'feelings' and not factual substance. He just defected and talked around things.
Short Answer : yes
Long answer : yyyeeeesssss
Jeremy seems to believe that world hunger is the responsibility of the American working class
Even though I broadly agree with Jeremy's position, his reasoning was very much lacking. He argued very personally, with what felt like a very patronising attitude. Kehinde had one strong point that he made perfectly well that Jeremy failed to address time after time, instead going after fairly inconsequential inaccuracies in statistics, bits of historical context (which is good and well, but here wasn't always on point) and more importantly, he barely touched on what the West fundamentally is, if not racist, and if the West is fundamentally anything at all. He never even gave his own definition of the West, so the two were basically arguing about different things.
It serves to be patronising in the face of such blatant ahistorical and politically coloured drivel! Let's call it what it is. It is an absolute disgrace that Kehinde Andrews is seen as an academic authority when he espouses such clear biased readings and untruths for the sake of political ideology. And I certainly agree that we should explore history from different viewpoints, not solely from "the West", but what he is doing ain't it.
As for Black needing to offer his own view on what the West is: perhaps. But that wasn't the discussion, the claim was that the West is inherently racist, as offered by Andrews. And it isn't. Not significantly more or less than any other tribe that has ever had the pleasure of inhabiting this planet.
The onus wasn't on Andrews to offer an alternate explanation on what the West actually is, but to debate the veracity of Andrew's claim.
Humans are racist, and they are also not. What matters is to steer towards the latter while we stay ever vigilant of the former.
It's not like it is any different in the east. Each country despises some other country and their people. It's just that for you, "the west" is the only place that exists/matters.
That's a complete strawman. We live in the west so we talk about where we live. Duh!
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn We live in the east and we are never seen.
@@JohnSmith-hs1hn you’re not getting his point .
Ifiwasonlyadragon is arguing that the western world isn’t fundamentally racist as Kehinde is arguing .
After all , if our civilisation is inherently racist , why did things get better in the past 70-200 years ???
Both speakers made some good points. I would have liked the debate to be more focused on enlightenment values. It's here we see how these values define today's modern liberal capitalist worldview, how some of these values are problematic, whilst some can be salvaged. For example, Kehinde is right, there are racist biases which make up the modern worldview and system, but Jeremy is also right that there are some complexities other than race that need to be addressed. We definitely need reevaluation and further discussion on enlightenment values but I do believe there is a reluctance to admit this especially amongst modern liberal societies.
Actually anybody who speaks of race is wrong (completely wrong). Everyone needs to see Spencer Wells "the Journey of Man - a Genetic Odyssey". Everybody's heard it before and it sounds a little cliche to say there's only one race the human race but do you really believe it when you hear it or when you say it? I think most do not it just sounds good so they throw it out there hoping it'll do some good but they don't really believe it because it's so ingrained into our Collective conscience. I bet most don't aware of the population bottleneck about 60,000 years ago that took the global population from Millions maybe even tens of Millions down to as few as 5,000 individuals worldwide and it wasn't like evenly distributed it was most likely all in one area which would make everybody brothers and sisters literally and every human alive today is more closely related than two birds sitting side by side the branch in the tree in your front yard because that's what happens when you're a few thousand individuals away from distinction that bottleneck makes us all more closely related than anybody realizes.
What I'm wondering is why black people don't recognize relate to and embrace their whiteness considering 2/3 of African Americans have greater than 1/3 DNA and you don't have to believe me and I'm not here to argue about it if you have problems with the numbers take it up with Oprah they're her numbers. We all started in Africa the original color was black those who Moved far from the equator suffered from vitamin D deficiency had to shed melanin rapidly or sephor all kinds of problems from not being able to absorb enough vitamin D or we would still all be black. That black pigment in your skin makes it dark melanin is Nature's UV protection but since vitamin D comes from UVB some superficial changes needed to occur and with nature being the efficiency expert she is that was the easiest route and it worked wonderfully and if we were like all other mammals we'd be sniffing each other's asses instead of looking at each other's skin so just consider yourself lucky you don't have to do that. You see with black being the original color it's going to be dominant most of the time how often have you seen an interracial couple have a baby that looks White not very often right that doesn't mean they're not Part White it just means you can't tell by looking at them so maybe we need to quit being so shallow and superficial and look a little further than just our skin color because if that's all that defines us then that's just a damn shame.
Ignorance is not Bliss it's just ignorance but knowledge truly is power for those who will take the time and put in the effort to acquire it and it's not that damn difficult so if it's important to you that there's no discrimination understand there is no racism there's simply tribalism the mother is of all other isms and it comes in many different manifestations but amounts to a preference for ones own group which is quite normal and quite expected and part of the human condition so it's not going anywhere because it served us well for a very long time in the distant past when a stranger danger actually made sense and the only way to really truly deal with any of this is to undo that rectal cranial inversion (head up ass) everybody's been suffering so badly from and stick it in a book instead and educate yourself so you can't be manipulated and controlled by some white liberals looking to play you for some votes (again).
ua-cam.com/video/W_xTG6VXlIQ/v-deo.html
Do yourselves in everyone else a big favor and take the time to understand this because it makes a big difference (all the difference in the world)
Good summary.
It prompts me to ask a simple question (which I would have loved to ask of the debaters in the video.)
How and why is it that a Nigerian immigrant, or an Indian immigrant, or a Chinese immigrant, or Iranian, Somalian, Brazilian, and so on and so forth - can rise up whatever ladder they choose, succeed, fail, do whatever they do, and not lather up their entire life's enterprise by claiming a predominantly white monolithic presence prevented them?
Which makes me think - it's not the ones who succeed that are the only proof of this attitude, perhaps it's the ones who fail to some degree, that prove it even more.
We can fall back on that old - well it was a different history, and slavery, and this and that and the other, don't you know.
But skin is skin is skin. And its color has never, (sadly) mattered more.
And that is the basic and fundamental foundation of racist attitude.
The British were just as disgusted by their dusky Indian "wogs" as white Americans were by their (fill in the blank.)
Britain is now chock full of successful and accepted Indians. Time changes things. People do improve.
But then again, I have noticed occasionally online, some pretty wicked stuff expressed by Asians (especially women.) A curious thing. Gets me wondering if there aren't very specific reasons for that - which makes their take an understandable thing, to some degree.
America (and now much of the west) has fallen into the habit of growing a distinct and dynamic exceptionalism. We are the best. A thing often discovered and brought up in global, international women's feminist conferences, for example. Much to the chagrin of many non-western women.
So by comparison, the west can also grow a terrific sense of ownership of racism.
We do it so much better, and so on.
Only we don't. We do get big on ourselves, sometimes. A little humility can work wonders.
@@burleybater Well I think one of the points made in this debate is that racism is bigger and broader than just skin. Skin colour comes largely from eugenics. Eugenics still has a legacy and role in today's society (there is a good talk on this I'm happy to share if you want), however, I'll agree it's not as prevalent.
For example, we have a South Asian descended prime minister here in Britain. So skin colour is less of a thing but still a thing (look at historian David Starkey's recent comments).
But racism is still prevalent. It's less about skin colour and more about culture/ideology. Perhaps we should call it something else. But the reason why it fits with racism is because it follows the same structural violence that racism adheres to. That was the main point I got from this debate and topic; that the modern Western conception of the world (adopted by white and non-white groups) looks at other/alternative worldviews as inferior and so systematically destroys or assimilates them. This affects both individuals and societies.
So to answer your question, I think certain individuals and groups (who do not follow the modern Western worldview) often feel the structural pressure to conform, and if they do not, they are at a disadvantage. They feel it and refer to it as racism. Hope that makes sense.
If our skin colour can explain most our human hates, the earth would be a lot more peaceful. Everyone just like their neighbors, usually people of their same skin colour.
The world would be a lot more peaceful if we didn’t have Democrats
Studies show that if kids are raised around people of different skin colors those in group biases begin to fade.
Imagine how racist you are when... even making a "question" makes people dislike the video before they see it. LOL.
Yes, I am racist and I instinctively know that anto White Andrew doesn't have my people's interests at heart. So why would I not dislike anything he has to say?
While we must not languish "in the past," we cannot afford to forget the justice of Reparations.
Mr Jeremy Black is unbelievably condescending in the way he portrays his ideas about racism.
I got the impression that he does not comprehend what racism is in whatever form; historical, ethical, commercial, mutual interrelationship - in every whatever aspect, he has not the faintest idea or even a modicum of depth of knowledge of the subject. He failed to comprehend the central point that Kehinde Andrews proposed that racism today has its roots in history which is so firmly implanted in modern society that there is nothing one can do to debunk the western attitude to racism.
Note that the history of racism is always eurocentric. History in the west is always going to be focused on the west for obvious reasons, but what that means is that the history of X that you learn about will actually be the history of western x. So the history of science is often seen to have started around the time of the renaissance even though it was thriving in the muslim world and in the far east for much longer, the history of civilisation will be seen to have started with the greeks even though it existed in the middle east thousands of years before the greeks, the history of slavery is often seen to have started with the atlantic slave trade when in reality slavery was as old as civilisation and europeans didnt start civilization. So yes racism as seen in the west is seen to have started in the west, not because it actually did, racism has likely always existed in some form or another but because people dont really care about non western history which is a shame because in the end it just takes away what you can learn from humanity as a species rather than a set of races. Racism is not unique to the west in any way shape or form but what is unique is its acceptance and support of people of difference backgrounds despite history.
@@lewis5384 Dear sir, I enjoy reading your analysis of history. Society does not stay still but changes with time and we all know this. But individuals as you or I are but atoms in an ocean of dynamic time. Recall someone said there no such thing as society - how wrong she was; and equally absurd when one says its the end of history. But all in all its me, you and the person next to me right now is what matters. I enjoy others company, a joke, a laugh over a glass of beer, and racialism goes out the window. Life is wonderful, life is worth living. As I said our every breadth is but a fickle and might just extinguish without notice. Given that scenario, we can be nothing but brothers and sisters being in love! When the eyes speak, race does not matter.
I am American. Columbus is no where near the most revered historical figure in our country. I doubt he is top 50. Not saying he is not revered and its a minefield. But no he is not close to number 1
Don't you guys celebrate Columbus Day??... I think he is in the top 50 lol
@@CaribbeanQueen07 It has been refocused in many areas. Columbus has no connection to the United States. He was a Italian explorer who was in the service to the Spanish Crown. He never set foot in the North America, bar maybe Florida. The colonies that would become the United States wouldn't be founded until over a hundred years after his voyage. No he is not, believe me. Pilgrims have more significance. And believe me they did some terrible things as well.
@@kevinmitchell6114 p
Both of these (erudite) speakers have cherry-picked bits of history and presented them in a very convincing way! Having said that, racism does exist in all places, wherever there is humanity! NO ONE is holier than thou...!!
Who sold the slaves ? Please name the Country who sold their own
Portuguese etc basically a lot of coastal euro nations was going to war with African tribes that was ran by women and to save their whole tribe they had to give pow they didn’t know what your ancestors would exactly do to other humans . To be honest it’s like saying which Jew sold another Jew to the Germans
The entire world did , slavery is in HUMAN CULTURE
Considering kehinde would still be living on the veldt hurling spears at his brothers , Rather that getting rich hating the system that educated him . I would consider we arent as racist as he wants us to be .
Slavery is 5000 years old at least.