The problem with mixing oil/water varnish and stain
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- Опубліковано 19 лип 2021
- This is an important tutorial! Can water-base go over oil-base? What about shellac and lacquer and wax?
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Said it before - will say it again - you are (by a margin) the best teacher of woodwork related topics on UA-cam. Comprehensive - logical - clear. Cheers
I once heard a chemist describe how he blended nitrocellulose with solvents (including a generous amount of alcohol) and shellac. He called his product "Boom Shellac, A Lacquer."
Nice!
You joke, but AFAIK nitrocellulose was/is also commonly used as a lacquer. Flammable sure, but not nearly as explosive as the fluffy guncotton would lead you to believe. (which mostly burns so fast because it's really fluffy)
Awesome video! I'm just a beginning amateur with no training whatsoever, it's incredible to be finally taught in a concise and accurate manner. Reading instructions on manufacturer's pages was giving me headaches. I can't thank you enough for these "more technical" videos!
You'll get the right information here, without the hype and garbage promises in those instructions. The right channel to learn from.
Great info! Especially the emphasis on drying vs. curing time.
Good thing is you summarized. Sad thing is about half way through the summary I started to forget the the beginning of the summary.
I think rewatching this when I need it is indeed the way to go.
Hence why he said "save this video" at the end. However, I understand what you're getting at; it's a lot of information that can still be much when summarized.
Another 5 star tutorial Mr. Hamilton!!!
This is the video I've been waiting for. Finishing is the bane of my existence
I should put this video on a continuous loop at the Woodcraft I work at. It's always amazing to me how many people who have been doing woodworking for years that have no idea of the difference between drying and curing. I've watched people's heads explode when you tell them it may take up to a month or more for that poly coat to cure. Also, so many new finishes that people have forgotten how versatile Shellac is. I know it's not as durable, but one of my favorite finishes is Shellac with a final coat of wax rubbed in with a grey scotchbrite pad, especially for kids toys.
Really fantastic tips, James! Thanks a lot! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
OMG Thank You ! I've been doing a lot of research on these topics & been getting conflicting answers! This clears up so much. Finally a true educational video! Thank you!
Excellent info. Also, Shellac to seal knots, prevent bleed through. Thanks for the video.
Best way to start the day in Sydney lockdown! Thank you!
Hugs to you and your family. 🙏🤗
I always learn something from each of your videos and blog posts.
Amazing amount of useful info James. You have an unnatural gift for repeatedly coming out with a video that directly addresses a subject that I have been pondering and deliberating over! Very spooky 👻 But very much appreciated nonetheless. Thank you.
A great summary with excellent warnings.
A hint I found for use of BLO. A full cure can be sped up a lot by putting the oiled item out in the summer's sun. The warmth and UV kicks off the BLO a lot faster than when inside. Like for thin coatings a single day. Or at most two days with turning to expose all the surfaces. Also for those with sensitive noses you'll find that BLO changes its odor when it kicks off. So that's another clue of when a coat of oil is ready for any further treatment. Tung isn't so easy though.
Thanks stumpy. You're helping a very rusty woodworker. Cheers mate
One of the less-used finishes that weren't mentioned are water-based glazes. I've experimented with these, trying to highlight grain on wood that I've stained, and I like the effect on some species (mostly oak). In those cases, shellac goes between everything. And it dries in an hour or less, which makes it simple to do if you have any concerns about the compatibility of two (other) finishes. When in doubt, shellac it out.
oil stain -> shellac -> water-based glaze -> shellac -> poly top coat
Thanks again, James, for making a complicated topic clear!
More great info, James. Thanks for all you do for this community.
That was very informative, definitely saving this! Thanks
Very helpful info, Stumpy! Thanks!
Another quality video, really informative and well presented. Keep the great videos coming. Such a brilliant way of learning.
a very good video. thanks for sharing the video
You always have it under the sleeve stumpy great tutorial, just can't miss any of your videos no matter what👍💯💯💯
Nice breakdown of finishes. Inwill be going back to this, from time to time.
Liked, Saved, Shared…GREAT INFO…and…THANKS!!!
Always get a copy of the mds of whatever chemicals you use. Knowing if something has some real nasty solvents in it you didn't expect, knowing what to use as a thinner, etc. A lot of useful info that will help you work better and safer.
Yeah seriously, my worker guy used some teak oil but I found out after the fact it has petroleum solvent in it. Teak gasoline seems like a more appropriate name imo. Trying to decide if I can use a water based sealant over it. May test it firstly on the underneath portion where no one really can see it. Not real teak though, it's ireko.
@@StAnger561to770 Many times you can use a dewaxed shellac as an intermediate layer between two finishes that won't otherwise bond very well to eachother.
@@miles11we thanks. I searched online but we don't exactly have that product here in this land I am in. they sell the actual powder, looks like honeycomb. And I found a liquid product which is supposed to mix with the powder to form the shellac. Depending on the purpose you can use more or less of the powder and liquid.. I guess the liquid alone could be considered unwaxed shellac but I don't thing it is quite the same thing as the product you are taking about and that he was talking about in the video
Excellent tutorial!
Another top tip video :) Thank you
So much useful info... Definitely saved.
Very informative and complete. Thank you for all your knowledge
Very very helpful video! Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for taking the time to share this
You saved me! I have been trying to find this information for a while. What an excellent and educational video, you rock, thank you so much!
Another useful video James...thanks
Great advice. Love your channel its my favorite.
Such a great explanation, thank you!
Thanks for the info!
Thank you! Informative video as always.
Great info, as usual. I will absolutely use your sanding sealer solution, I've wondered how to do just what you were using as an example (oil stain- water based clear coat) and wouldn't try it on a customers project till I found out. Thanks!
Appreciate this. Thank you
Awesome info...thanks for the video.
Great video. Thanks
Thanks James, great info and saved for later viewing. Fred. 🙏🏻🙏🏻👍👍👏🏻👏🏻👋👋
As a wood finisher and a baker, I almost cried watching you use a Pyrex dish for that finish! I get it, but I might strangle someone using my favorite crime brûlée dish( so I get more of the creme than the brûlée) for staining or finishing!
Thank you!
I have nothing to say really, but I appreciate your content, and wish to help with the yt-algorithms.
Parabéns pela explicação !
Admiro muito seus trabalhos !
Thank you
Good video
Great video as always. However, there are waterbased finishes that will adhere to cured poly with no scuff sanding. In my country there are several flooring products like this. They do recommend a cross-hatch adhesion test though, to be certain.
Great timing on this video~! I'm finishing a walnut project with Danish oil and was wondering if I could/should use a topcoat of some kind and if so, which one? I think I'll just go with multiple applications of the oil since that works well too. Thanks for the info~!!
On table tops I often use linseed oil to enhance the grain and poly after for protection, never had a problem
I learned several useful things. Thumbs up to crush a troll.
What an awesome video, it's just "coated" with lost of info. 😂 I will definitely be referring to this one time and again. Keep them coming! Take care and have a good one, Adios! 🖐
Thanks for the video; I ordered a small project from a Craigslist carpenter, and we specifically agreed on a polyurethane finish multiple times, but last second he slapped Tung oil on it and said it's better and practically forced me to take the item as is... Long story short, I ended up putting water based poly ontop and it took like 3 months+ to cure to the point where it was tolerable in the room, fumes-wise; if I had this basic knowledge earlier I maybe woulda tried oil poly :/
At 9:24 you maybe meant to say “fully cure”. Anyway great video saved for later review. Guess I can throw some Odies oil over the tung oil I used on a box to get a film finish
My whole life is bonding issues. 😂
Fantastic stuff. Any thoughts on hard wax finishes like Odie's Oil?
Naptha removes wax really well.
Awesome tips! Do you include hemp oil in with the tung and linseed oils?
Excellent video SN! What about the differences between using de-waxed vs. waxed Shellac? Shellac happens to be my favorite go to finish because it is a purely natural product which holds up very well over time and is easy to reapply. 👍👍😉😉
best advice here: save this video. I thought about this & went to go do some sanding, then forgot the bottom line on the way to my lame shop
Some great tips for those trying to up there finishing game.
Think being patient in the difference between dry and curred screws allot of projects up. 🙄 Or so I've heard.
Lots to take in especially when you've got a memory like mine.
Thanks James, awesome video. My church wants to refinish 40 year old oak pews. I was wondering what type of product you would recommend using?
Thank you.
I was just wondering this very thing the other day.
I just had a 100 year old dining set stripped because the finish was in bad shape. The wood is very, very dry. Before staining and sealing it, would it be a good idea to do a tung oil, or 50/50 tung oil/orange solvent blend on it? Then do the stain and sealing? Thanks so much. Very helpful video.
You posted this video at the perfect time for me. Thanks for sharing! What about water based grain filler? I was thinking about using aqua coat to fill my white ash table top but I wanted the final finish to be Oil Based Poly.
ua-cam.com/video/moPPnn1_w5o/v-deo.html
Hello, thank you for your video, really good information. I wanted to stain a table, when I applied the wood conditioner, the color that emerged was really nice now I do not want to add the stain. The wood conditioner I used is oil based. Can I apply the water-based poly to it directly or should I use the Shellac you mentioned in your video first?
Great video, but can you touch on topcoat paint? There's been a few times where I've wanted to try this out to protect certain projects for some extra protection. I've recently gotten into tinting my laquer and want to experiment with opaque coloring. But I haven't found a ton of information on this
Book on finishing by Bob Flexner is good. Nice vid
Would I need to apply a dewax shellac over a fully-cured, water-based stain before applying my finish (Waterlox) if it is oil-based?
Do yall think I should use pre stain conditioner on Red Oak before staining?
Test it in an inconspicuous place first, such as a hall closet.
Great video! Question: if I want to nourish an old wood but also make it smooth, does it make to first use a mix between linseed oil and mineral spirit to penetrate and nourish the wood, and then wait lets say, a month, and use a water based sealer to keep the natural color but filll and seal all the gaps. and then if needed use any extra finish? My objective is to obtain a natural look that's somewhat smooth, not that grainy, do you recommend other way to get that taking into account that the wood now is somewhat dry and has no finish at all (sanded)? Could I maybe only use oil, first very dilluted with mineral spirit, then adding a less dilluted coat and sanding, and so on, so the wood is "filled" by the same oil instead of using a sealer? I have no rush in finishing but the best natural look possible.
I’m refinishing a solid oak dining table. I’d like it to have a grayish stain with a whitish grain. It needs to have a very durable finish as it will be our main dining table. I was planning on an oil based stain. I’ve already sanded the table down to bare wood. How can I accomplish this?I was thinking of using liming wax but after watching this I realize this is not a good idea as a polyurethane finish won’t work over the wax. I’d appreciate any help…thanks!
I use CA when I turn pens (and a few other things). Can I use oil/water under that?
Tried getting answers on this a few times 😆
I have an antique walnut wood desk I’m finishing. I’ve applied 2 coats of minwax oil stain, may add a 3rd.
Next I’m thinking to apply 3 coats of tung oil, 7 parts solvent to 3 parts oil, let that cure, then repeat, cure, the apply a final 6:4 or 5:5 ratio. Finally, after that cures, I’m thinking to apply 3 coats of oil based minwax poly at a 7:3 ration and fine sand between each coat.
Do you think this is a good method to get a beautiful finish and durability? Or is this over kill? Or should I just go with one coat of danish oil and call it a day?
Shellac and never look bac.
Any info on how cyanoacrolate and acrylic resin?
Thank you. I have been struggling with the question for a couple of weeks. You explained much better than many other web pages and videos that I have watched. But I am still not sure of one thing after seeing your video. If I have something which has been stained with a water-based stain more than a couple of months ago, do I need to do anything special before applying an Oil-based Poly over it? Except some light sanding to create a mechanical bond, that is?
The water should all be gone, so the only issue would be adhesion. If the surface still feels like wood with no film or residue, it should be fine. All that should remain from the stain is pigment.
I think I started to soon with water based poly. It's been at least 1 day after the BLO when I started the poly. I got 2 real thin coats and had to stop last night. I walked it to the shop and could still smell the BLO.
So, what you're saying is that I can actually use an oil based poly over let's say two coats of water based poly, as long as it is fully cured... This is a game changer for me, since a wipe on water based poly it's really easy to apply 🤔
Oil based poly is really easy to apply if you think it out with mineral spirits. You can thin it out to near water consistency
@@FarmerJesse but it has more VOCs and water based poly tends to be more forgiving.
Scuff the surface before applying the oil based poly though.
Danish oil is an oil-based poly that is also really easy to apply. It's my go-to finish these days.
So I accidentally bought and applied an oil based finish first, then used the same brush 30 min later; I applied a water based finish to a different part of the instrument. Would that work or would I have to strip the water based finish due to the brush (I used a foam brush unwashed between coats)?
Beware any furniture that has been coated with a polish with added silicone ( often added to aerosol spray can furniture polish ) silicone causes any subsequent finish to ‘fish eye.
That appears to be an exterior door. I'm curious what you chose to finish that with....maybe a spar varnish?
I believe we used a spar varnish from Total Boat.
I think I missed what grit you recommended for scuffing the old finish.
I wouldn't go any coarser than 220. Some people use 320+.
THANK YOU, this was SUPER helpful I feel like I really understand this now. I've seen people do this on youtube before and never really understood the logic of what you should or shouldn't layer.
My only question is, why would someone want to layer multiple different finishes? I get it for refinishing something old, but if I'm putting together a brand-new piece of furniture, at what point in the project would I look at it and think that I need multiple types of finishes?
I explained that in the introduction, including examples.
@@StumpyNubs Thanks for your reply!
I believe the only "why" example you gave of layering different finishes was applying a film finish over a penetrating oil.
You mentioned using mismatched stain/finish, and you mentioned applying a new finish on top of an old project.
In contrast, throughout the rest of the video you gave examples of many numerous combinations of finishes and finish types. Is there any reason someone would set out to do any of these on purpose?
Layering different types of poly?
Putting paste wax over a film finish?
Shellac then poly then lacquer then paste wax? (No joke I see people on youtube do stuff like this!)
Is there any reason?
@@crankstonshnord6591 - Those examples I gave at the beginning cover most of the situations. You wouldn't layer different types of poly on a new project, but you may want to recoat an older project that originally had oil-based poly on it, and you may prefer a fast-drying water-base for that. You might have put shellac or a natural penetrating oil on a project when it was new, but later wish you had more protection, so you could add poly on top. Paste wax is used to add protection and a satin sheen to natural oils and shellac. There are loads of situations when you may need these tips.
@@StumpyNubs Thank you so much!
I know a 93yr old cabinet maker and he uses a finish of 1/2 BLO and 1/2 denatured alcohol. Is there any benefits with this? And does it protect the wood?
The alcohol is just a thinner to make it easier to apply and help it soak into the fibers. Alcohol dries quickly, which is likely why he chooses it. BLO offers some protection, but not a lot. ua-cam.com/video/5GRWmYH9vXg/v-deo.html
Will a penetrating oil still cure after it has been covered with a filmbuilding cover?
I think it needs oxygen so isn't it necessary to wait weeks bevor adding poly even if oil based?
It will continue to cure, though it'll take many years. How long depends on whether it's boiled oil or normal stuff, & yes you should always give it the appropriate time before putting anything on top (and rub it down with white spirit first), but I've been using film finishes over oiled wood for years & never had uncured oil come back out & wreck the film or anything like that, so whether it's cured on the inside really doesn't matter, as long as it's cured on the outside (where the oil & the film might touch). What goes on deep beneath the surface of the wood is a matter for the wood alone.
Aside from epoxy/acrylic resins, no finish will completely seal wood against external influences like oxygen.
Have been working on a bench that has a few engraved panels (those are covered with two coats of linseed oil to make the pine a bit yellow and preserve the texture of the wood). Everything else except those panels is stained with nitro based stain.
One of the panels was covered with linseed about two months ago, and the other about a week ago.
Now guys at the store and some local guys recommend me to use water base acrylic ower everything. Just the lacquer as there is already a base layer.
Should I take their advice. I'm planning to spray it in a 7-10 days.
Also wanted to say thanks for the video about kitchen counter tops. As this bench has a top similar to that, that video came quite handy to make it. I'm planning to start spraying polyurethane tomorrow ower that counter top (it was stained with nitro based stain so I got proper poly base and lacquer for it). Hopefully the harder won't fail as I'm keeping it in the fridge until I need it. I'm planning to do 1 layer a day except maby spraying base coat on both sides tomorrow (bottom first and after it dries the top so I can apply next two layers of lacquer to the bottom on Thursday and Friday).
This is my first big project, and your videos were quite helpful.
Special thanks for the tool safety videos, as I just got my tabesaw.
Cheers!
It'd be fine over oil as long as you rub the piece thoroughly with a rag & white spirit first, then allow it to dry. As Stumpy says, you can then seal it with shellac (nothing with wax in though; homemade is best) or an acrylic sanding sealer if you wish, although I've not found that necessary with water-based poly, provided that oil has been rubbed down properly so there's none left on the surface of the wood.
When it comes to the nitrocellulose, you should be able to put your acrylic directly on to that without any prep at all, but do test on a small area first. You can run into a lot of trouble with incompatible ingredients in unfamiliar old finishes, even if they are theoretically compatible overall, & since you're spraying there may be more VOCs mixed in to thin the stuff. I'd actually recommend using a brush-on water-based poly instead of spraying because it tends to be tougher once cured, plus you don't have to worry about any weird additives. If you do brush, foam brushes when used slowly make for an excellent result with water-based poly.
@@nightcatarts how long does a white spirit take to dry? Newer used it and never seen it at the small stores (see some big ones have it on-line here).
I would like to avoid shelack at this stage.
@@AJ_moja_kvaka It's sometimes known as mineral spirits if that helps. Half an hour should be plenty; most of it evaporates almost immediately.
@@nightcatarts found White Spirit locally (out of stock) but they told me it was just a dedicated (better) oil thinner.
Thinner as something used to make oil lacquer flow easier through the spray gun and than you can use that thinner to clean the gun.
They offered me a degreeser. They say it will make surface dry.
@@nightcatarts thanks for all this information!
So I have used danish plus water based poly after 3-5 days.....I haven't had any issues but I know danish is a blended finish.
Great video thanks Stumpy. I oiled a table I made 5 years ago. Since then it has had many applications of furniture wax. I assume I have to de-wax it before anything, but will the de-waxing affect (re-activate) the cured oil finish?
No, mineral spirits used to dissolve and remove wax will not deactivate the finish if it is fully cured. But why are you removing the wax?
Aha! Busted! 🙂 I thought it best to remove the wax before applying a polyurethane coat.
Be really, really sure you get all the wax. You should really remove it with mineral spirits then sand to bare wood. Even a little wax will be bad.
Thanks man.👍
❤
what is difference between water based stain and alcohol base stain? Can I put water based polyurethane over alcohol based stain?
Alcohol and water are just the solvents that keeps the pigment in liquid form while you apply the stain/dye. Both completely evaporate, so once the stain is dry, neither the alcohol, nor the water will have any affect on what you apply over it.
Hey what is is recommendation for a good circular saw?
Off the top of my head, I forgot what they named the exact model, BUT "Skillsaw" puts out a worm-gear driven circular saw that's actually as good as you'll get in an "ordinary portable circular saw"... It's a tad pricey (around $125-135 US)... BUT it's the kind of thing a contractor will keep in the bed of his truck and use regularly for a couple decades before "retiring" it for an updated version...
Let me elaborate a tad...
Most circular saws mount the cutting blade directly on the shaft of the motor. It's okay, but the effort required to push the saw through wood, especially thick slabs of hardwood is just abusive to the motor, and diminishes the life of bushings and bearings, eventually pushing the blade out of "straight" and resulting in jamming...
The "worm-gear" drive, however, mounts the motor shaft "front to back" on the saw, and uses it to achieve a mechanical advantage on the drive-gear to the blade on the side... This shortens the shaft on which the blade is mounted and practically guarantees you're never going to jam the blade in wood... AND they build them up to a 10" blade-size so you can even cut through 4X4 lumber in a couple cuts without too much hell to pay...
ALSO advantageous, they put the blade and the "guide marks" on the left-hand side of the saw... SO unlike most "common" circular saws, the Skill worm-gear won't have you leaning over the saw to try and see what and where you're cutting... Since most of us operate our saws "right handed", meaning our right hands are on the handle and trigger... Holding it that way, you just look down and there's the marks right out front for you do see and sight the saw... "dead-on-balls"... every line... every cut... every time.
The skill worm-gear saw is a bit longer and heavier, a possible downside, but it has a REAL forward handle instead of a weird plastic knob, allowing you to stabilize your hold and control, and the added weight DOES help hold it steady and down on the job... making cuts more consistent and precise over the longer haul... AND it's even equipped with a "push-button lock" on the side of the saw, to hold the shaft while you're wrench is loosening or tightening the nut for the blade!
Lots of "common circular saws" with the direct shaft driven blades ARE "good"... I wouldn't shame anyone for buying a Bosche, Makita, or Dewalt... all "good" saws.
Just in my opinion, the Skillsaw with the "worm-gear drive" is an EXCELLENT saw and worth every polished penny scraped together to get it. ;o)
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 thanks bro for the advice, do you have any experience with their cordless models? Because that’s what I’m in the market for
Several times you emphasized dewaxed shellac. Water base finishes will not adhere to regular shellac, peals off in sheets.
That's why I emphasized dewaxed shellac.
I want to use a water based poly as a top coat. Will it react well to going over a couple coats of oil based poly? Anyone?
Didn't you watch the video? That's what it's about.