Hey Matt, I love what you do on your channel and I think this super comment interaction you do is really great! I had a couple of questions I was hoping to get your guidance on, and I believe you may have covered these topics before in previous videos, but I didnt remember hearing you mention the answers that I seek. 1. - In a trinnov waveforming setup (3 front / 2 rear), do the drivers of all of the subs have to be facing a particular direction, or is it it just totally user preference? And 2. - In a light controlled room, can an acoustically transparent screen be paired with a UST projector (instead of a screen specifically made for UST) without a large drop in image quality? I really want my speakers behind a screen but I will likely need to utilize a UST projector because of my room's constraints. Thanks for your time sir!
The irony of Dolby Vision is it froze out projectors when projectors probably could have used the tone mapping meta data the most. But at this juncture the point is moot. Brands like JVC and BenQ are already offering HDR tone mapping for HDR10 that is as good or better than what I’ve seen from HDR10+ on the same projectors. And most comparisons from experts like Vincent Teoh really question the need for DV this far into the game. Dolby may have overplayed their hand.
That's the reason I've stuck to an LG OLED display for my HT. It's a measly 65" but sitting at 6-7' is perfect and my next purchase is the LG OLED G4 77" so it will be even better with higher brightness. Now that a lot of cheapish ARM boards support DV (CoreElec's Kodi on Dune HD Homatics Box R 4K Plus. TV Led DV) there's no reason not to stick with OLED display for a small single seat HT. I'd rather put the money on my audio than deal with projectors and all the inherent variables. (plus noise and need for calibration. Maybe once I get more money and more space I'll re-evaluate.
I sit around 8-9 ft from a 120”. But no projector will have OLED blacks. So there’s always a tradeoff. I feel like it’s easier for me to accept some loss to contrast/dynamic range than to accept the lack of size… but that’s ME. There are no right or wrong answers it just depends on what kind of experience you’re after.
Not sure I agree with all the commentary in this video. Even with disc-based profile 7 DV content, I find DV offers a substantial upgrade over HDR10 on my OLED when the content is mastered at 4000 nits and above. The Full Enhancement Layer included on some DV P7 releases can also noticeably alleviate some compression artifacts present in the HDR10 base layer. For DV P7 MEL content mastered at 1000 nits or below, I agree the difference is negligible on a typical OLED. Still, I’ve always wanted to experiment comparing LLDV to MadVr tone mapping on a projection set up.
Well a few things. We were discussing this in terms of projectors and the argument that a lack of DV on projectors and associated playback devices is a crime. But the dynamic range of projectors is really limited and many of the advantages of DV is achieved in other ways. After doing this video I met with an expert who lead the rollout of DV for Dolby into consumer goods. One comment he made (and I previously heard the same comment from the folks at both MadVR and Lumagen) was that you don’t need DV for projectors. Their comments were that with enough processing power, the right frame look ahead, you can dynamically tone map an image without the meta data. That really Dolby Vision is a solution to a lack of processing power on consumer displays. Keep in mind that Dolby Vision cinema is not done with any meta data or special processing. The movies are simply made for the projector, with its known capabilities. The dynamic tone mapping in a MadVR and Lumagen has the same known data (because you measure and add it) and can do the same thing. JVCs dynamic tone mapping is quite good and does a similarly good job. To further support this claim, it was recently possible to implement Dolby a vision via LL on any projector. In doing so, it was clear that the DV Meta data wasn’t adding any advantage over a dynamic tone mapping algo like Lumagen or MadVr has. I had questioned how this could be the case and raised it with the expert, who explained why this is so. I’ve also learned that many of the creatives are not experts and don’t actually know what DV is or how it works. So being able to go to the software engineers and their managers directly has proven invaluable. I have actually learned a lot since this video posted and will follow up with this new information. But back to the video, my point wasn’t that DV isn’t better than HDR10. Absolutely it is. It’s that high end projection systems using dynamic tone mapping with traditional non-DV sources are not actually worse. They achieve the same results. You could argue that the trims in DV have some advantages, but in many cases the trims are generic and the manual adjustments you can make to the DTM algos achieve the same result.
@@PoesAcousticsthanks for the response. I don’t disagree with anything in this comment. I was mainly disagreeing with the reported observation in the video by the HdFury rep that the main observable differences between HDR10 and DV occur with streaming, not discs, which you seemed to agree with based on testing with your Sony OLED. I look forward to the follow up content. I’ve long suspected that most DV trims are automatically generated with Dolby’s CM analyzer tool with very limited manual override from the colorists. It’s effectively pre-baked shot-by-shot tonemapping analysis vs real-time shot-by-shot tonemapping analysis performed by a video processor.
@@ThatHz- profile 5 is not backward compatible with HDR10 and uses a proprietary IPTPQc2 color format that is more efficient than YCbCr. Profile 7 has an HDR10 base layer and is encoded in YCbCr for backwards compatibility with HDR10-only displays.
So wait a minute.. If I stream from an Apple TV 4K to an LG OLED TV, the Apple TV doing the DV (player led), not the TV? Match frame rate and dynamic range is on, obviously 😅
I wish I had the $ for a new TV worthy of also hiring Duane to fly in to calibrate it. Also I hear all of the talk about video formats and settings. I wonder if everyone is supposed to change the TV settings per film/source played. Seems like too much work for the average home. Hopefully, the changes can be automatic and reliable. Matt, thanks a million for the videos and info!!!
Valerion's new long throw/lifestyle projectors also have Dolby Vision and initial reviews look really good, punching above it's weight. When it comes to creators intent if it's 1000 nit graded and your display solution can't produce 1000 nit highlights you aren't getting the creators intent. But what matters more to you.. that or being able to fit more seats in front of a bigger screen. Not to mention 115" TVs are 20 grand. I do personally think you're missing a lot by not having a display that can get bright though. If you have amazing tone mapping but your display is only 100 nits from screen then you'll be able to see the highlights instead of them being blown out but they won't actually be highlights.
The Valerion is looking good but it’s clear now some of the early influencer opinions may have *slightly* overhyped it. And we still don’t know the real price… IMO it would be very difficult for me to spend a ton on a single chip DLP especially when there are DLPs like the BenQ HT4550i available for less or 3LCDs like the Epson LS11000 for roughly the same price.
@sage11x the hook up has done a side by side comparison with a JVC. It pulled it's weight. Whilst the JVC showed it's better black floor when a lot of black was around, such as night sky, the Valerion had way better highlights and looked closer to reference most of the time. Though obviously UA-cam compression is at play. It's official pricing is on its Kickstarter unless they change it.
HDR10 is the base layer, and the you have HDR10+ and DV are an addition layer. That way it can fall back to HDR10 if you device doesn’t support either of them.
Think of it like the audio codecs on a bluray. If the receiver doesn’t understand TrueHD, it can simply find the next best codec (DD+ in this case). Similar to the audio codecs, It’s a packaged format with backwards compatibility. Devices older than the supported version of DV that the content is mastered for then the player will simply throw it away before it hits the output pipeline. The laser on your bluray player still had to find and put into memory all of the TrueHD data even if it wasn’t being used. Same story for the extra enhancement layers on top of HDR10. Even within Dolby Vision there are profiles that are backwards compatible so that for some features even within DV, you can get a fallback without loosing all support.
Thanks. So, if I understand it correctly, the video content is full dynamic range and the HDR formats are wrappers with instructions on how to best compress the video content to a level the display can handle. That sounds logical, I always assumed some processing was done on the source video file too.
@@jeroenk3570no, there is extra data beyond HDR10’s limit that is in the track. If your device doesn’t support it, it defaults to the HDR10 data and ignores the other data. I’m sure the Wiki page can explain it further.
DV no HDR ABSOLUTELY YES OMG That people still say all you need is sdr clearly never saw hdr on an oled. My god, it’s so much better than a projector. The ONLY two things projectors have an advantage on over oled is size and acoustic transparency and exactly nothing else. Oled TVs blow them out of the water on picture quality and it’s not even close. It’s just not. If you aren’t watching hdr you are missing out so much
I suspect you have never seen a really good projector. I think you wouldn’t feel such an extreme view. A Christie Eclipse has a native 20 million to one contrast. I think you would find nothing about its blacks to complain about. Its color is superior to the best OLED. Brightness can match an OLED. That is screen size dependent. When we use them in residential they often can easily hit 500+ nits. I know of a few installs where the new 30,000 lumen unit is going in and will hit 1000 nits. But yes for the lower price point, OLED gives excellent picture quality that most projectors can’t compete with. I just don’t find the size and sound limitations acceptable. Far bigger problem than blacks or peak brightness.
Hey Matt, I love what you do on your channel and I think this super comment interaction you do is really great! I had a couple of questions I was hoping to get your guidance on, and I believe you may have covered these topics before in previous videos, but I didnt remember hearing you mention the answers that I seek. 1. - In a trinnov waveforming setup (3 front / 2 rear), do the drivers of all of the subs have to be facing a particular direction, or is it it just totally user preference? And 2. - In a light controlled room, can an acoustically transparent screen be paired with a UST projector (instead of a screen specifically made for UST) without a large drop in image quality? I really want my speakers behind a screen but I will likely need to utilize a UST projector because of my room's constraints. Thanks for your time sir!
The irony of Dolby Vision is it froze out projectors when projectors probably could have used the tone mapping meta data the most. But at this juncture the point is moot. Brands like JVC and BenQ are already offering HDR tone mapping for HDR10 that is as good or better than what I’ve seen from HDR10+ on the same projectors. And most comparisons from experts like Vincent Teoh really question the need for DV this far into the game. Dolby may have overplayed their hand.
That's the reason I've stuck to an LG OLED display for my HT. It's a measly 65" but sitting at 6-7' is perfect and my next purchase is the LG OLED G4 77" so it will be even better with higher brightness. Now that a lot of cheapish ARM boards support DV (CoreElec's Kodi on Dune HD Homatics Box R 4K Plus. TV Led DV) there's no reason not to stick with OLED display for a small single seat HT. I'd rather put the money on my audio than deal with projectors and all the inherent variables. (plus noise and need for calibration. Maybe once I get more money and more space I'll re-evaluate.
I sit around 8-9 ft from a 120”. But no projector will have OLED blacks. So there’s always a tradeoff. I feel like it’s easier for me to accept some loss to contrast/dynamic range than to accept the lack of size… but that’s ME. There are no right or wrong answers it just depends on what kind of experience you’re after.
Couldn't agree more 👍
Not sure I agree with all the commentary in this video. Even with disc-based profile 7 DV content, I find DV offers a substantial upgrade over HDR10 on my OLED when the content is mastered at 4000 nits and above. The Full Enhancement Layer included on some DV P7 releases can also noticeably alleviate some compression artifacts present in the HDR10 base layer. For DV P7 MEL content mastered at 1000 nits or below, I agree the difference is negligible on a typical OLED. Still, I’ve always wanted to experiment comparing LLDV to MadVr tone mapping on a projection set up.
Well a few things. We were discussing this in terms of projectors and the argument that a lack of DV on projectors and associated playback devices is a crime. But the dynamic range of projectors is really limited and many of the advantages of DV is achieved in other ways.
After doing this video I met with an expert who lead the rollout of DV for Dolby into consumer goods. One comment he made (and I previously heard the same comment from the folks at both MadVR and Lumagen) was that you don’t need DV for projectors. Their comments were that with enough processing power, the right frame look ahead, you can dynamically tone map an image without the meta data. That really Dolby Vision is a solution to a lack of processing power on consumer displays.
Keep in mind that Dolby Vision cinema is not done with any meta data or special processing. The movies are simply made for the projector, with its known capabilities. The dynamic tone mapping in a MadVR and Lumagen has the same known data (because you measure and add it) and can do the same thing. JVCs dynamic tone mapping is quite good and does a similarly good job.
To further support this claim, it was recently possible to implement Dolby a vision via LL on any projector. In doing so, it was clear that the DV Meta data wasn’t adding any advantage over a dynamic tone mapping algo like Lumagen or MadVr has. I had questioned how this could be the case and raised it with the expert, who explained why this is so. I’ve also learned that many of the creatives are not experts and don’t actually know what DV is or how it works. So being able to go to the software engineers and their managers directly has proven invaluable. I have actually learned a lot since this video posted and will follow up with this new information.
But back to the video, my point wasn’t that DV isn’t better than HDR10. Absolutely it is. It’s that high end projection systems using dynamic tone mapping with traditional non-DV sources are not actually worse. They achieve the same results. You could argue that the trims in DV have some advantages, but in many cases the trims are generic and the manual adjustments you can make to the DTM algos achieve the same result.
@@PoesAcousticsthanks for the response. I don’t disagree with anything in this comment. I was mainly disagreeing with the reported observation in the video by the HdFury rep that the main observable differences between HDR10 and DV occur with streaming, not discs, which you seemed to agree with based on testing with your Sony OLED. I look forward to the follow up content. I’ve long suspected that most DV trims are automatically generated with Dolby’s CM analyzer tool with very limited manual override from the colorists. It’s effectively pre-baked shot-by-shot tonemapping analysis vs real-time shot-by-shot tonemapping analysis performed by a video processor.
I’d love to hear about profile 5 vs profile 7, first I’ve heard of that
@@ThatHz- profile 5 is not backward compatible with HDR10 and uses a proprietary IPTPQc2 color format that is more efficient than YCbCr. Profile 7 has an HDR10 base layer and is encoded in YCbCr for backwards compatibility with HDR10-only displays.
So wait a minute.. If I stream from an Apple TV 4K to an LG OLED TV, the Apple TV doing the DV (player led), not the TV? Match frame rate and dynamic range is on, obviously 😅
LG can do the decoding. If you set it for low latency then yes.
I believe Sony only works that way. lL mode.
I wish I had the $ for a new TV worthy of also hiring Duane to fly in to calibrate it.
Also I hear all of the talk about video formats and settings. I wonder if everyone is supposed to change the TV settings per film/source played. Seems like too much work for the average home. Hopefully, the changes can be automatic and reliable.
Matt, thanks a million for the videos and info!!!
Valerion's new long throw/lifestyle projectors also have Dolby Vision and initial reviews look really good, punching above it's weight.
When it comes to creators intent if it's 1000 nit graded and your display solution can't produce 1000 nit highlights you aren't getting the creators intent. But what matters more to you.. that or being able to fit more seats in front of a bigger screen. Not to mention 115" TVs are 20 grand.
I do personally think you're missing a lot by not having a display that can get bright though. If you have amazing tone mapping but your display is only 100 nits from screen then you'll be able to see the highlights instead of them being blown out but they won't actually be highlights.
The Valerion is looking good but it’s clear now some of the early influencer opinions may have *slightly* overhyped it. And we still don’t know the real price… IMO it would be very difficult for me to spend a ton on a single chip DLP especially when there are DLPs like the BenQ HT4550i available for less or 3LCDs like the Epson LS11000 for roughly the same price.
@sage11x the hook up has done a side by side comparison with a JVC. It pulled it's weight. Whilst the JVC showed it's better black floor when a lot of black was around, such as night sky, the Valerion had way better highlights and looked closer to reference most of the time. Though obviously UA-cam compression is at play. It's official pricing is on its Kickstarter unless they change it.
Lumagen supports DV since last update IIRC
How can one media file support multiple HDR formats, are the media files the same and is it just data for the receiving end to interpret?
HDR10 is the base layer, and the you have HDR10+ and DV are an addition layer. That way it can fall back to HDR10 if you device doesn’t support either of them.
Think of it like the audio codecs on a bluray. If the receiver doesn’t understand TrueHD, it can simply find the next best codec (DD+ in this case). Similar to the audio codecs, It’s a packaged format with backwards compatibility.
Devices older than the supported version of DV that the content is mastered for then the player will simply throw it away before it hits the output pipeline. The laser on your bluray player still had to find and put into memory all of the TrueHD data even if it wasn’t being used. Same story for the extra enhancement layers on top of HDR10.
Even within Dolby Vision there are profiles that are backwards compatible so that for some features even within DV, you can get a fallback without loosing all support.
Thanks. So, if I understand it correctly, the video content is full dynamic range and the HDR formats are wrappers with instructions on how to best compress the video content to a level the display can handle. That sounds logical, I always assumed some processing was done on the source video file too.
@@jeroenk3570no, there is extra data beyond HDR10’s limit that is in the track. If your device doesn’t support it, it defaults to the HDR10 data and ignores the other data. I’m sure the Wiki page can explain it further.
DV no HDR ABSOLUTELY YES OMG
That people still say all you need is sdr clearly never saw hdr on an oled. My god, it’s so much better than a projector. The ONLY two things projectors have an advantage on over oled is size and acoustic transparency and exactly nothing else. Oled TVs blow them out of the water on picture quality and it’s not even close. It’s just not. If you aren’t watching hdr you are missing out so much
I suspect you have never seen a really good projector. I think you wouldn’t feel such an extreme view.
A Christie Eclipse has a native 20 million to one contrast. I think you would find nothing about its blacks to complain about. Its color is superior to the best OLED. Brightness can match an OLED. That is screen size dependent. When we use them in residential they often can easily hit 500+ nits. I know of a few installs where the new 30,000 lumen unit is going in and will hit 1000 nits.
But yes for the lower price point, OLED gives excellent picture quality that most projectors can’t compete with. I just don’t find the size and sound limitations acceptable. Far bigger problem than blacks or peak brightness.
If there is a choice of using Dolby vision I always go with that imo better picture my Hisense ust projector has Dolby vision but Dolby vision.