Here's Why HDR Games Look 𝗕𝗘𝗧𝗧𝗘𝗥 if Your TV Supports HGiG/ Tone-Mapping Off
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- Опубліковано 22 жов 2023
- We explain why HDR games generally look better on a TV that supports HGiG, or whose tone-mapping can be disabled, such as the Panasonic MZ980 OLED.
Panasonic has also designed its new [True Game] picture mode to deliver accurate D65 white point and colours, therefore faithfully reproducing the creator's intent.
The "Includes Paid Promotion" message in this video refers to the sponsorship by Panasonic.
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Vincent you need to do a collab with Digital Foundry on the weird situation in the gaming industry with regards to HDR. It would be fun.
why?
I’d prefer him collab with NXGamer. Michael is the best gaming tech content creator. He has such great insight due to his experience actually working in the industry that other outlets can’t match.
@@robertlawrence9000 One thing I would find interesting is why many Games use 0.05 Nits as Blackfloor instead of 0.0000 Nits. So many HDR Games have raised blacks in HDR for some reason while Movies look great.
@@D71219ONE He doesn't have a lot of bandwidth, but I say the more the merrier. A conversation needs to be had. HDR is clearly problematic.
@@robertlawrence9000 why not
Finally a HDR gaming video from you again after forever!! More of this please 😊
Amazing effort every time. The content and speed flow of these videos are so informative and satisfying.
It feels so complicated to buy a great TV for gaming and Video…. This channel helps a lot :) can’t wait to finally buy me a new TV
Great work as usual, I would be interested to see your take on Windows 11 auto HDR and it's Windows store HDR calibration app. There are many folks trying to make sense of that.
As well as how you can play OpenGL and Vulkan software with AutoHDR now with a setting in the Nvidia Control Panel.
what setting?@@XDLugia
@@Gamerboy-gw5kn It's called "Vulkan/OpenGL present method" and you want it to be set to "refer layered on DXGI Swapchain". It can be toggled on a per game basis. It appearently reads OpenGL and Vulkan as DX through some kind of translation layer, which is how you can get Auto HDR. I saw one guy use it to get HDR through a PS3 emulator.
This!
Super informative video. Thanks for the upload!
In the end, it still all comes down to personal preference. I recently got my C3 and set it up the way the experts were advocating and some things like HGiG (too dark) or color temp warm 50 just weren't to my liking. I now use my standard mode for the ps5 and enjoy it as much as all the other content
Thanks for doing this vid. That was a fascinating bit of info.
I just switched from LG c1 to TCL c845 mini-LED. It's true that hgig looks accurate but in most games it also makes the overall picture appear to be a little too dim. In Forza Horizon for example, hgig does indeed look nice and very accurate, but when you use the TVs tone mapping instead, you get a very bright picture with only a small amount of lost detail and I find that just more fun to look at personally.
Same.
This channel also has recommendations such as Gamma set to 2.4 on the C2, so HGiG not bothering him doesn't surprise me.
I just enable HGiG overall i liked, but also like DMT on, it's dimmer on HGiG but some colors are really good ( y play normally on very dark room)
Facts
Jesus, going from OLED to LCD. On a TV no less. I don’t care how much brightness they offer, LCD’s for home theater are a dead technology.
Vicent, we would very much like you to make a NEW video comparing HGiG with Dolby Vision Gaming and what would be the best to be used today, since years have passed since your last video. Thank you very much and keep doing this excellent work.
I use the last years Panasonic JZ980 model so I do not have a choice but to use dynamic tone mapping if I also want to have pure 4k120hz. My solution to the problem has been to ignore the test images of PS5 and those inside game and just set the peak brightness in both to 1000 nits (and paperwhite to 150-200 nits if there is one) manually. Many games already tell you the nit values in each slider and there is a chart on the internet for the nit values of PS5 hdr calibration tool, how many clicks from zero I have to go up to get the desired value.
While the test images look wrong just ignore them, let the dynamic tone mapping do its work in actual real life content and start to game. The calibration settings I did are closer to the limits of my displays capabilities and dynamic tone mapping is able to sort it out easier, with sparkling highlights but no blown out midtones as far as I can tell.
Great content Vincent , bring the real HDTV shootout were the A95L willl havr stiffer competition from Panasonic and Phillips oled .
It really depends on the game and how hdr is implemented. Example games like GT7, forza and spiderman look absolutely amazing in hgig on my 77in C1. Brightness not and issue. But with a game like lords of the fallen where the hdr is crap hgig just won't look right, very dark, washed out.
Starfield sent me on a rabbit hole of going back to Dynamic even though HGIG looked great a lot of the time.
Try "The Quarry" with HGIG😂
@@DesOdinsNordmanThe Quarry actually looks amazing in HGiG in light controlled room. Usually HDR games are overly bright, this one looks like dark Dolby Vision movie. The problem with The Quarry is that it's average brightness is almost always in the treshold of TPC dimming. To play The Quarry properly in a dark room TPC needs to be disabled.
@@anabukashka No way! All the Details are gone, so dark its unreal. HGIG is most lf the time absolute crap.
I only ever use hdr with hgig if it’s perfectly implemented otherwise sdr
Would you also recommend turning off tone mapping on the Sony A95L?
Awesome work vincent. If I want to play games on my C3 in filmmaker mode to preserve the color luminance with DTM OFF then how to I calibrate the Xbox/in game hdr setting. Should I set them to 800 or 4000 nits?
Should have mentioned that this is just as crucial for using TV as an HDR monitor for PC!
Also, I was under the impression that LG oleds support HGIG. What's with the brightness difference against the mastering monitor then? Surely Vincent wouldn't have not enabled HGIG on LG for that comparison? What's going on?
What about built-in streaming apps? Do they honor the metadata values? Feels like highlights are searingly bright on my Samsung QLED in the Apple TV app when using Movie mode (which is using static tonemapping).
I just bought a 42" c3... thanks for bursting my bubble.
wdym?
Hey Vincent. Does Filmmaker mode have more lag than Game mode? My Panasonic doesn’t have True Gamer mode.
*Still love my 77LZ2000!*
Best TV for PS5 and Movies 🤗
@HDTVTest @vincent I need you to do us a huge, gigantic favor. Please make a video explaining all the terminologies like gamma, color format, color space, luminons, nits, and everything in between when you discuss a display! I know i might be only one here asking but there's thousands of people wanting the same thing and you are only person I know who is expert in display calibration and knowledge. I'm waiting for a response atleast. Thank you!
I think I'm done watching this type of content, & not just from here, there are several others that I follow.
Other than setting up a TV initially & updating firmware, I'd rather watch & play games on the TV than worry about all the different settings for this that & the other regarding TVs.
For me it's set it, forget it, & enjoy it, & don't worry about the things I'll never miss!
I'm not sure if you've answered this in a previous video, but is there a way to pull up the menu to view the Metadata on samsung TV's, like you did on the Panasonic? Please amlnd thank you.
So I just listened to a talk from a Valve dev where they talked about creating proper metadata for HDR. Kinda funny if they do things correctly. Linux will go from no HDR support to the only correct HDR implementation for games.
watched that as well, pretty cool to see valve pushing even niche use cases for linux now without expecting andy ROI for quite some time
Linux either doesn't do a thing out of the box, or does it as perfectly as possible out of the box. Let's hope they cook it well
Where can i watch this?
Do you just set to true game mode and that's the best setting for gaming or are there more steps one should be taking?
can you use Calman to calibrate a TV using a more consumer affordable device like a xrite or spyder colorimeter?
If metadata is available, does display tonemapping outrank other source based tone mapping? mpv has tons of controls regarding this, comparison would be interesting.
Hi. Hope you can help. I have a 75 inch Sony X95L. Unfortunately, he has no game mode for Dolby Vision Gaming. Only HDR 10 has Game Mode. I think Dolby Vision of the colors and contrasts is much better. Can you tell me how high the input was? When I activate Dolby Vision with Xbox Series X and in Dolby Vision games on the X95L?
Wheres the full Sony A 95L review then Vinny ??
Let him cook.
Hope there arent some politics standing against
How does tone mapping works for gaming on Sony's 2023 flagship TVs?
I need help. Just got a PS5 and a Hisense U7K TV. The TV reported max brightness is 1000 nits, which according to a chart online is 15ish clicks when doing the HDR Adjust calibration on the PS5. However the logo in the calibration process is still visible at 15 clicks and I need to go up to 25ish clicks to have it disappear or be just barely visible. Not sure how many clicks I should do. I have Tone mapping disabled on the tv but I don't think it turns off. The overall picture looks off in Spider-man Remastered and it's driving me insane.
Vincent is it true that the 83 inch g2 has the older panel and power board issues.
Vincent number one!
I'm waiting for your review of A95L. I bought one and I need your advice.. For now I have tried 2 ways, DTM off (17 clicks) and gradation prefer (21/22 clicks).. I don't know which is more correct but I prefer the impact of the gradation prefer, houwever the PQ and colors are incredible.
Good work Vincent.
This is why I have tone mapping turned off on my Sony after calibrating on console. Yes, having it ON at Gradiation Preferred or Brightness Preferred gives pop, but often blows out the highlights ☀️
Sony Bravia supposed leave Gradition Preferred for HDR 10 and leave default setting for Dolby Vision Bright and Dark
I just bought an Sony X95L, I was wondering what HDR tone mapping to use, right now I'm using brightness prefered...
i have an LZ800 42" panasonic OLED.
could panasonic update it to give the option to disable the tonemapping in the game mode?
so what about on a Sony tv like the 80j, 80k or 80l? These tvs don’t have hgig but instead 3 tone mapping settings which are brightness, gradation preferred or off. Do I set up the ps5 and Xbox with tone mapping off on the tv? Do I turn tone mapping on after I calibrate the consoles?
Question. Where's the review for A95L and why is it the best?
@HDTVTest Is there a chance Panasonic will update the LZ line with the ability to enable 120Hz Bypass without completely disabling HDR Tonepam?
Im confused because my LG CX show HGiG as an option under DTM menu, so is HGiG a sort of DTM type and needs to be turned off or the opposite and it should be on during PS5 OS HDR calibration? Thank you!
Hi Vincent, are you gonna review the Panasonic mx980/950 mini led full array. Waiting for that, and obviously the mz2000
When do you think you could review?
BEST regards
What is the "correct" way to do it on older TVs like the LG C8? DTM game mode should be on or off for HDR gaming? How many "clicks" should you go up from the bottom on the three PS5 HDR calibration screens? Should I still drop the black (third screen) all the way to the bottom?
On ps5 all c serie from c9 to the c3 clip at 14click up 14 click up and 0 that’s is going to be 800nits on highlights
Does anyone know the link to Vincent's LG C3 OLED calibrations for the PS5?
I have an LG c1 and playing my ps5 with hgig on makes the image look dull? I followed your hdr calibration set up for the ps5 too?
What about Dolby Vision for gaming? Has it been improved since the last time you checked?
I have a qled with dolby vision. Even when its just hdr10 i personally feel that it looks better with the tonemapping feature enabled. My tv doesnt lose much detail, only in the whites but thats to be expected.
Panasonic = such an amazing brand 😀
Thank God for this channel
And what is with the sony oled and mini leds?
Dtm on with hdr calibration on the ps5.
Or only ps5 hdr calibration without dtm on?🤔
Any chance you could revisit an older set like the LG B7/C7 and how to best set them up with modern gaming consoles like the Series X / PS5?
Hmmm, seems like a 6 minute ad for Panasonic tvs to me…
@danielmichaelgarcia: As stated in the UA-cam description, the "Includes Paid Promotion" message in this video refers to the sponsorship by Panasonic.
That may be the case, but that was never mentioned at all in the video. You just talk about how all these things are better on the Panasonic tv, without letting your audience know they paid you to say that. Kinda’ looses a bit of integrity if you ask me and will make me question any other video that does the same. I hope it was worth it!
@danielmichaelgarcia: As mentioned, we have marked this video as "Paid Promotion", and clearly stated in the video description that it was sponsored by Panasonic. Don't blame us if you didn't notice these declarations... our conscience is perfectly clear. :-)
good stuff. do you have a video where you explain how to set HDR parameters for a PC lets say with a nvidia GPU?
what does this mean for a calibrated A80J and PS5?
turn off Gradation Preferred?
Hi master. In lg c2 do i need change input icon from console to PC for gaming? ❤
Watching previous videos of yours Vincent i wonder:
1) Do really bright tvs tonemap? I mean, if you have a qled tv that can do 2000 nits, does the tv even tone map? Do games even get mastered in higher than 1000 nits?, do they even get mastered at all for hdr?
2) You yourself have said in the past almost no game uses hgig. The only game you usually have as an example is dirt 5. So my question is, does setting hgig on override conventional hdr implementation?
3) I struggle at times to understand hdr on games and what it actually does. On films i get it, you have a bluray version which has been mastered and color graded on sdr standards, then you have a separate 4k uhd version, that has been mastered and color graded specifically for wide color gamut. With games though it seems more like an open format. There is no sdr or hdr specific mastering. It seems more like just 'whatever your tv can handle'. In many cases switching between sdr or hdr in games seems to bring nothing in return, at times hdr is even worse, with elevated blacks or loss in color gradient. Forza Horizon 5 is a classic example for this. Nightime in hdr looks more like greytime, in sdr the night looks like proper night.
Is this true for PC games as well? When I enable HGiG on my LG C2 everything looks extremely dark.
Vince’s, I have a jz2000 is there much difference between this and the newest model
The LG c1 with the ps5 , tone mapping is a better choice because with hgig enabled all games are very dark, everyone will have their own preference tho .. play with what makes you happy
I have my lg oled hooked up to my pc and it's awesome. I use a 12gb pny 3080 as it's ample for speed and quality even in cyberpunk and star shield
Hi, have you good settings for sony a90k with ps5?
Where can I buy the Panasonic TX-42MZ980B?
People who have a Sony A90J OLED, what are your visual settings for Spider-Man 2? Mine are
Fidelity | VRR | 120Hz
Brightness 35 | Contrast 70
All OFF: Film Grain - Motion Blur (0) - Chromatic Aberration - Depth of Field
Does anyone have better presets they like?
Vincent, do youn think leaving HGIG on even for games that dont take advantage of it is ok? I'd rather 'set and forget'
Thanks for the vid, as usual. But I have a question. Where has Vinny got to these days?!
Hello, are there any plans on reviewing A95L?
Hello, brilliant material, just what we needed. how many clicks on PS5 do you need in Samsung S95c with hdr basic (hgig) mode and should I change the color gamut to bt2020 or dci-p3 for max quality?
HDR automatically changes to BT2020
20 clicks
I have 65" LG C2 4k OLED TV. Can you please give me the perfect settings for PS5 games like Final Fantasy 16, God of War Ragnarok, Horizon. Thank you
So is it better to turn the tone mapping off when playing hdr games with ps5? I'm using A95K tv.
One thing Ive never seen mentioned in your videos Vincent is what’s the best solution when a game doesn’t use the console level calibration, doesn’t have an in-game peak brightness slider, and is a fixed 4000 or 10000 nits.
The one game that comes to mind is the original God of war.
Would it still be okay to use HGiG or better to use DTM Off/On?
In those cases use tone mapping if you want to preserve highlight detail or turn tone mapping off for the highest apl (average picture brightness level)
Vincent, could you make a video with the best settings for S95C, please?
If the tv supports 1000 nits at 5 or 10% window brightness and the mastering luminance is 1000 nits, is tone mapping needed at all?
What are the best HDR setting for the Samsung/Alienware ultrawide monitors in games
From most recommendations I've seen for Sony TVs, others suggest turning DTM off, calibrating HDR using the PS5 patterns, and then turning DTM back to gradation preferred
Wouldn't turning gradation preferred back on defeat the purpose of calibrating with DTM off? Why not calibrate with gradation preferred on?
That’s something I don’t understand either.
I prefer the brighter look on the LG C3 personally, I don't care about accuracy in games but that's just me
Thanks for the video.... Would HGIG also be recommended to enable when gaming in PC instead of console?
no
Depends on the games hdr implementation. Games like uncharted 4 set the hdr brightness to 4000 nits so tone mapping is best in that situation but if you're able to set the settings or if the game uses the system hdr calibration then use hgig.
Hello
I noticed on Spiderman 2 in particular that when the 120 Hz Mode was activated, the image became strange, less sharp and with washed-out colors... Is this what you're talking about?
(Tested on a TCL 65c845).
Thanks a lot!
Yes if you use uncapped VRR mode in Spider-Man 2 then the resolution will get downgraded
So on my Sony it's probably better to not choose for gradation or brightness preferred, but just off when it comes to HDR tone mapping?
It,s so so good 🔥☺
What about the Philips HGiG mode of HDR Perfect, I find my games washed out. I setup peak brightness at 700/800 nits. (Tried on oled 806 and 907)
What about gaming monitors ?
How do disable it on Samsung odyssey neo g7 ?
Hmm, obviously this is subjective but the game you're playing matters in regards to this topic. For example, with Tone mapping off and HGIG on, NBA 2K24 looks dark and odd on my LG CX. However, Starfield looks better in HGIG versus tone mapping being on. I suggest trying both on each game you play to see what looks best.
Assassin's Creed Mirage seems far too dark when using HGIG on my PS5/C2 combo, any advice?
If i turn off hdr on tv for calibrate hdr on xbox with my samsung qn90b, it not give me a true max luminance(1700). I must to make it on 8500 for not see the squares and then the picture results washed. In video you make it on 750 on panasonic and the squares disappear. How???
It's sometimes best to try a few examples of content, for instance I didn't realise how terrible Samsung contrast enhancer (on by default) was. Until I played resident evil 7 and areas intended to be dark were devoid of shadows and washed out , sapping all the tension.
It does feel a little like many of the default settings for tv sets out of the box are objectively awful, but must be what people have been taught to believe is "good". Once you show them actually good and pretty accurate they often appreciate the improvement.
I always find the "accurate" colors Vincent likes to look worse. They tend to be overly warm and sucks enjoyment out of the experience.
@kicapanmanis1060 everyone should use their TV in the way they enjoy most. It's their money. I gave the filmmaker mode a go when I got my current tv and gave it a few days to be able to say I'd given it a fair shake. Now I wouldn't go back.
@@kicapanmanis1060 Your room lighting may be too blue and you need to give yourself time to adjust.
Please Vincent you really need to address the lifted blacks situation in HDR gaming, and the misconceptions around rgb range (specially on pc)
Should i turn the nits in Alan Wake 2 to 100? HGiG is on, i use LG CX by the way and thanks for the help, you are the best :)
Should i use HGIG or just keep dynamic tone mapping off
Hey Vincent, great video as always!
Do you think there is a chance that last year's Panasonic OLEDs (LZ series) will receive an update that will allow us to use 120Hz Bypass Mode with TV's HDR Tonemap disabled (like this year's MZ series)?
I love my LZ1000, picture quality is amazing and HDR performance is great too. My only gripe is that currently 120HZ Bypass Mode automatically enables TV's HDR Tonemap and there is no option to disable it while using Bypass Mode :/
I would really appreciate your opinion on this matter.
Cheers! @hdtvtest
Got the same tv, how do you set ps5 hdr? Tone map normal or clipping?
so on the cx i can just turn HGIG on and im good instead of dynamic?
Vincent,I use a PC to game and select HGIG in the menu.Is it as simple as doing that?When games like Motorsport start up,it says "auto HDR enabled".It looks great to my eyes with this setting (LG G1 65").
dtm off. enable hdr in game not auto hdr.
Can someone answer me this... I cant select HGIG for my Samsung TV on PC mode. It seems like hdr calibration tool is all funky because of that. Im not sure if im still supposed to mess with it or leave it be and let the tv do its thing.
Wait so what's the summary? TVs should be on default settings and then max brightness in game hdr options?
Will you test the new Huawei TVs 85/98"!?
Would this tv be better than a C3 42 inch, is it worth the extra £400
HGIG is great in a dark room on my C2. But I rarely play in dark conditions. I've mostly gone back to using DTM as I play in a well lit room. Reference is great, but it doesn't beat preference when the conditions aren't ideal.
Same here. Have to use DTM on my C1 otherwise the picture is just too dark.
Yeah I always use DTM. I never follow these since it’s always too dark.
fact
HDR is made for dark room performance. Better control your light conditions than using overly bright settings that lowers the dynamic range. BriGhTnEsS means not picture quality. And it isn´t ToO DaRk. You probably never saw true HDR.
@@mipha5262 Or maybe I'll keep using settings that I enjoy using while still understanding that it's not the most optimal or accurate because accuracy is not everything.
On LG OLED TV, is it better to select HGIG or Off ?
When will the A95L review be released?
For those who have LG OLED C1, do you use DTM ON or HGiG on spider-man 2?
On an LG C3 (or C1 or C2), turn Dynamic Tone Mapping on, and change the game black level to 30 in the game optimizer menu. The default value is 50 and the HDR looks washed out unless you lower it.
No one could tell me that HGIG looks better with a straight face. I'm talking about PC gaming in Windows with the HDR slider on.
Gradation Preferred for HDR 10 and off for Dolby Vision on Sony Bravia
soo can you please simplify the setting in 3 steps ?