I just love that drawing at the end of each video. GNG high-fiving Feanor, Curufin and Celegorm all too happy to burn the ships, Maedhros standing by unwilling and a singed Amrod (or Amras, not sure) being comforted by his twin brother 😁
Beren even laughs at how cheaply the Sindar sell their daughters. It's only a Silmaril. I shudder at what would have happened if Turin had been in Beren's shoes. "The son of Hurin requires no help, and no disguise. I WILL STORM ANGBAND HEAD-ON!"
I always imagine he's delivering those lines with a tinge of hysteria 🤣 "What have I gotten myself into, but more importantly, why did I ever expect anything else, of COURSE he asked for a freaking Silmaril...."
I always found it cute how The majority of the tale of Beren and Luthien is Beren getting his ass kicked, and Luthien scraping him off the floor with a spatula and patching him up. I also like to think in his first encounter with Thingol, when Beren seems sort of shy and intimidated by him, that weird look Melian gives him is her telepathically lighting a fire under his arse, “My husband is being being stubborn, lay down the smack talk”.
Your observation that Melian, Luthien and Arwen all effectively chose to combat Melkor’s infusion of himself into Arda by perpetuating their own parallel divine and semi-divine investment in the Children through marriage and offspring just brings the whole legendarium together for me. (The same could be said of Elros giving up deathlessness to instead more broadly share his heritage from Melian and Luthien with the Edain.) I really like the idea that love and sacrificing oneself for future generations can create an effective long-term bulwark against evil. So, thank you so much for this wonderful perspective. I admit that I’m a bit sad that the theme feels so... genetic, since I think that makes it susceptible to bad application, but I appreciate your tempering of the biological element by emphasizing a kind of inheritance of soul rather than bodily superiority. Even the legendarium has its pitfalls and limitations, and I think it’s useful to seek out less obvious but wiser readings that avoid doing harm, as I feel like you’ve done here. One thing occurs to me when thinking about these marriages and their issue: it makes Sauron’s evil work in Numenor that much more tragic, for who knows how many unnamed others of Melian’s line through Elros, perhaps through marriages of daughters and second sons over many centuries, were overthrown in the cataclysm, erasing so many who shared in that divine heritage? While I’m sure some would have escaped with the Faithful, I have to imagine that many were lost, and that eliminating as many of them as possible would have likely been one more motive of Sauron’s.
Appreciate that - I also felt a bit of discomfort with some of the very 'lineage-based' conclusions that could be drawn from the importance of the Elf-Man unions, and I wanted to make sure my argument took into account all the other elements in the texts that emphasize instead the interrelatedness of all the kindreds, and how chance/Providence works through the self-sacrificing choices of the characters.
Among the videos of sorrow and woe over a recent adaptation that come to us during the darkness of these days, there are yet some in which a focus on the author’s text brings joy. Amid strife and finger pointing over the adaptation, they eschew that topic and discuss these love tales. And of these analyses, the most fair to the eyes and ears of the TolkienTubers audience is GirlNextGondor’s study of Beren and Lúthien.
I love how Tolkien "inherently" or intuitivley knew the nuances of DNA when it comes to mixed species before people really knew what genetics even where.
One of my great regrets is that Tolkien died during the "Lamarck was Wrong" era and didn't live to see the "Oh Wait Actually Lamarck May Have Been Right (about some things)" sequel (aka epigenetics).
Since I first read the Silmarillion, quarter of a century ago, it never stopped perplexing me how Tuor got such a sweet deal from the Valar afterwards. Almost like a precedent made to be broken.
For Tolkien, the mythological inspiration for Beren and Luthien is no doubt the epic Orpheus & Eurydike but unlike the Greek tragedy Tolkien's story has a happy ending. Notably in Tolkien's tale their roles are reversed; Orpheus plays on his harp and sings to put Cerberos/Carcaroth to sleep who guards the gate to the underworld/Angband while Luthien sings to put Morgoth to sleep. Orpheus sings once again to Hades who becomes so moved by his performance that he agrees in letting Eurydike go. In the last moment however, just as they are about to leave together, Orpheus looses Eurydike and Luthien looses her lover Beren. Luthien again mirroring Orpheus goes to the afterlife and sings to Mandos/Hades who agrees in letting Beren go, and resurrects them both. Also Beren getting his hand cut off by Carcaroth is reminiscent of Tyr getting his bitten off by Fenris. Edit: bitten off in both cases not cut
“Luthien kicks Sauron’s butt in a magical singing duel, assisted by Huan.” Am I the only one who now pictures Huan as Luthien’s back-up singer? Or her beat-boxer? Sauron never had a chance with the awesome musical powers of Luthien and Huan combined. 😂
One of my favorite parts of the Tale of Beren and Luthien is when Beren basically calls Thingol a cheap man with no idea of value at the latter's declaration that only once Beren has collected a simaril that Beren would have the father's blessing, as if Thingol asked for one copper coin. My only real hiccup on the story is that we learn what Beren's thought on the offer made to Luthien before they're resurrection. Was he even told, and what would he have wave wanted for her? This was a man that would have if he could, taken all three Silmarils to have her father's blessing, who left her in her sleep so that he could complete the quest he accepted to show his worth, I can't think of a third example for the tricolin, but he had to have an opinion and it would be nice to know it. I would wager he would accept her choice regardless, that his truest want would be the fulfillment of her want, but still get this nagging sensation because we are never explicitly shown if Beren knows of the offer and we aren't shown his opinions on the matter. But maybe I am asking the wrong question, I am focusing on the wrong detail. Perhaps if I were to stumble upon my own Luthien, like The Professor did, I'd get it.
Beren throwing that back in Thingol's face is almost as epic as what he says when he returns: "Hey, I just promised the Silmaril would be in my hand, I said nothing about the hand still being attached!" I see what you're saying regarding Beren's concern for Luthien - he definitely seems the type to be opposed to Luthien sacrificing herself on his account. By the time she catches up with him at Angband, though, I think he realizes that she has the right to express her love and devotion to him, just as much as he shows dedication to her. This would be an extension of that. Also, given that Luthien has died of grief over him, as much as he might want her to live a happy life without him, he might also realize that's not possible for her 😆
This is by far my favorite story. A doomed quest, sacrifice, romance, and good boy Huan. I love how this tale is woven into everything, past and future. And knowing that this story is inspired by the love between Tolkien and his wife makes it even more beautiful and how high Tolkien regarded his wife and marriage.
Grateful to Tolkien that he gave their story a nicer ending by having them come back and have a kid. Older versions of the story had Luthien utterly fading away from the effect of wearing the Nauglamir, leaving Beren to a lifelong unavailing search for her all over again. Grateful to you for your rigorous study of the stories here!
In a world which celebrates studies of evil, Tolkien here showed in Beren and Luthien what truth and beauty are ( and I am not referring to luthiers looks). Elegant and insightful commentary here. These tales are worthy of study and they are so well developed. The love between them is intricate and enveloping. I loved the lord of the rings but I remember reading the Silmarillion and falling under a spell. That was many years ago. I think I shall reread it. Thanks.
I like this video so much that Imma sit here silently stupefied in this creepy ethereal forest until spring comes (or you drop the next video, whichever comes first)!
Your videos never cease to move me. Your look into the love stories of Tolkien’s legendarium is especially moving as I enjoy a love story even if the ending is preordained to be bittersweet. Somehow in them I find some kind of solace despite the bittersweet ending. I don’t really understand how this can be, but there it is. So thank you for the work that allows me to more deeply enjoy Tolkien’s work each time I read it. You are definitely an excellent interpreter of his work. Best wishes, InscrutableJohn
I just finished reading the tolkien biography by humphrey carpenter and found myself surprised at how the relationship with tolkien and Edith was portrayed. But with how often the author expressed tolkiens love for his wife, the story of beren and luthien really sticks out to me when I reread the silmarillion.
It's hard to speculate on a marriage between two people who passed away 50 years ago, particularly two rather private people - I think Carpenter was concerned to avoid overly romanticizing their relationship, and I think like any long-married couple, they would have had their struggles and triumphs. Tolkien's inspiration for Beren and Luthien came from the early days of their relationship and so their story is a very passionate, romantic one (and wisely, he lets them gracefully exit the main narrative while they're still star-struck newlyweds.)
This is such a perfect explanation of why this story resonates so much. They're making decisions to be kind, to be reciprocal, to love and care inspite of all the problems.
Never has there been a love-story so beautiful in all the ages of Arda, only perhaps that of a certain linguistics professor and his much beloved wife could compare with it ;). You did a great job here Lexi, really glad to see this video and to see that you plan to release a ton of content this month, am very excited for all of it! Oh, and wanted to say thank you once again for the livestream, and hope that you remember between all your videos and work this month to get some rest my friend as that's a lot of content promised before Halloween!
I never thought of it until just now, but one of the striking things about Aragorn's power to heal, when put in the context of information we get in _Morgoth's Ring,_ is that he's able to practice both healing and warfare at the same time. (I mean, not _simultaneously,_ but in the sense that he doesn't have to give one up to practice the other, in accord with Elvish norms.)
Tolkien's ability to create the greatest love story in Beren And Luthien while at the same time creating one of the saddest and tragi story in the Children of Hirin, RESPEC professor RESPECT 😭
Even the Sylvan folk held Luthien in esteem. That’s a fascinating touch considering how the Avari are essentially isolated from the rest of the Elves. Even their Sylvan kin of Lothlorien.
Beren is my favorite character of all time. Sees a 10, asks her dad, dad says "go steal from a god", "bet", and through the power of the human spirit and hornyness he gets it done. Absolute legend.
Great stuff GNG, as ever you go right to the heart of the legendarium and the man. Ge was bereft of everything, he had the example of his mother who had given up wvwrything for the choice of her faith. He found Edith and was made to wait, being given a seemingly impossible task to win her. They were married and almost at once seperated by war, happily in the end reunited only to doe frpm one another, and who knows their ultimate fate after that? The beauty of them both holding fast to finding the magic in the world in everyday life has inspired me throughout my life. I often advise people to look for the magic in their eceryday life search for the beauty in their mundane surroundings in order to heal themselves from the vissicitudes of life. The love of Beren and Luthien manages to ameliorate the spoilation that is morgoths ring. thanks for remindig me of some of my reasons for loving this couple and this authot. keep up the good work.
I sometimes think about how Beren must have felt, finding out that Lúthien loved him back. Surprised, baffled - and scared. How do you live up to that? How do you honour the love of someone, especially someone you love, and most particularly, someone you (rightly) hold to be so far above you? No wonder he chose estel with that experience.
Absolutely lovely, thank you for all the work you put into this again! I will smash that like button like the tip of Angrist smashing through Morgoths cheek!
GOD, THANK YOU for addressing the conundrum of Dior! It's my most vexing question about the nature of elves and men. I've been desperate for some Tolkien content-creator to address this, and you're the first i've seen. I've also come to the conclusion he must have been mortal (but not perhaps a "man", but maybe more accurately a mortal peredhel) as both his parents are mortal when he is conceived, and then the commentary from Christopher Tolkien concerning the version where all those with mortal ancestors are mortal. I'm curious how long he would have lived. However, what really muddles the issue is that the Valar didn't seem concerned with the first peredhel, and only discussed the issue when one came knocking on thier door, and even then the Silm states that the ability to choose is for the offspring of Earendil, so Dior not involved. It's like Dior's early death allowed the Valar to just dump the issue for Mandos to figure out. Also, no one seems to comment that a mortal is now ruling Doriath, once the greatest elven kingdom in Beleriand, and has wed a Sindar elf. Was Nimloth's fate affected by her love of the probably mortal Dior? And the silm states that no mortal ever saw Beren and Luthien after they came back from the dead, but what about thier kid? And why don't Elros's kids get the choice, or Aragorn's kids? Back to the rule about mortal ancestors? But Elrond and Arwen have mortal ancestors... *pulls hair*
I KNOW RIGHT?! 😂 So glad I'm not the only one lying awake stressing about how little Dior makes sense, on so many levels. I recorded a 20-minute rant about it as bonus content for the Patrons; I do plan on publishing that in the next couple of months so you might want to keep an eye out for that. The seeming-indifference of the Doriathrim to their ELVEN kingdom being taken over by a Mortal (?) whose title is 'Aranel' and whose kids/heirs are supposedly mortal as well, in particular, is something that galls.
@GirlNextGondor Someone on reddit suggested that the Quendi of Beleriand had no precedent, and probably no idea what he was or what the deal was. He's the heir, he looks amazing, and he is Luthien's kid.... soo, Eluchil it is..? The Athrabeth is so moving because we actually see the unknowing and uncertainty of the Children, the midst of Arda. I can imagine a well written fan fiction in the style of the Athrabeth of some Doriathrim nobles or guards secretly discussing the issue: if birthright trumps the mortality ambiguity, his grandmother IS devine, perhaps Eru designates this a new people?, etc. Would be tragic if Nimloth got to Mandos expecting to be reunited, and he wasn't there :( Anyway, thanks again! I'll check the patreon, that sounds entricing! Probably need the new year's finances to kick in.
I really like the idea of "Elvishness" as more of a spectrum than a clean divide. The fates, and thus natures, of Elvish and mortal souls remain fundamentally different but the amount of "spiritual strength" and the amount of control over the body the souls have can still vary. 6:01 It's a minor clarification, but Finrod is never said to have advised Aegnor against pursuing a relationship with Andreth. I've seen people claim Finrod played a part in preventing their relationship in Tolkien communities, but as I read the Athrabeth there isn't any involvement of Finrod beyond the very conversation we are reading: Finrod giving reasons - decades later, after it has been decided that it's not happening - for why an Aegnor-Andreth marriage would've been a bad idea. As for the theme of great deeds that Men can accomplish, and the hope that we can have and embody, I always have to think back to what Ulmo says about our great forebearers (in Unfinished Tales): "For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which they had on earth so little."
Agreed - the 'fate' may be the determining factor and seems to be pretty binary, but I don't think it's quite fair to classify Dior's nature as entirely 'mannish', just as it doesn't seem right to classify Elrond as wholly Elven, even after his explicit choice. I definitely think that Finrod gets an undeserved hard time over the Aegnor/Andreth thing; I think Finrod probably *discussed* it with Aegnor ("is he not my brother dearly loved?"), but while it seems they agreed on it being an unwise choice, all Finrod's doing in Athrabeth is justifying Aegnor's choices to Andreth (and maybe trying to discourage *her* from pursuing it further). And that last bit is I think the defining factor of all the great Elf/Man alliances and friendships 🥰
I think Luthien's choice wasn't just about babies, but about sharing Beren's eternal fate. It wasn't just about giving him descendants, but about not wanting to have separate fates after death.
Excellent! Keep up the great work Mellon! You are very talented and I really appreciate it. Your love for Tolkien's works is scholarly. I know THIS IS THE GREATEST Love story of loyalty, honor, love again, death, love one more time, and THE BESTEST boi who ever existed...Huan touched my heart ❤ May the sun be at your back and your heart the 🧭 ECTHELION!
@@GirlNextGondor hmm...(long draw of wooden tobacco pipe) indeed ma'am. If a creator could pitch a show about just the stories of Middle earth...just do that, tell stories of Middle Earth . So it can be that the story of Tuor slayed 5 balrogs and one wretched mole...Eärendil father. Th Fall of Gondollin could be 5 seasons easily..I know I know rights and all...but that story needs to be told. Sorry for ranting on Mellon. ECTHELION!
I cried many times listening to this video---touched all my soft points!!!! love your videos GirlNextDoor!!!! one of the best tolkien lore explorers on UA-cam!
Thank you very much! Doing the research for this video I was reminded of how moving the Beren and Luthien story is, especially in the little details like Luthien's tears hitting Mandos' feet like rain on the stones, or the fact that Beren is so badly wounded by Carcharoth he can't speak even to say goodbye to Luthien, but he holds on long enough to look into her eyes 😢
Thanks for providing the great video. The equation of love for Melian/Thingol, Luthien/Beren, and Arwen/Aragorn: Lady frolicking in the woods + man espies her through the trees = love Idril/Tuor was a bit different. If memory serves, they first met when Tuor walked into Turgon's throne room in Gondolin. Though, I'll have to reread to check if it was love at first sight. I'm thinking in their case maybe it was not.
I’ve always found it interesting that, when the descendants of the various unions of elves and men, i.e. Elrond and Elros, were given the choice of being men or elves, for Elrond’s children that choice was continued at least one more generation, but that the offspring of Elros, even his own immediate children, were not extended the same choice.
Fascinating world, fascinating video. (Although I have a really hard time understanding the morals of Tolkien: too many wars, too many sword fights, too many (elven male) drama queens, and too few magical inventions).
If I'm being completely honest, I don't love the characters of Beren and Luthien, nor is their story one of my favorites (I think I'm a bit too much of a Fëanorian fan haha). But, their actions and union are fundamental to Arda's tale and in producing some of the greatest characters to ever live (I mean, without them there would be no Elrond, Aragorn, Elendil and countless others). I really enjoyed how much you highlighted their importance here! And as with all your videos, I love the visuals that accompany!
You did a beautiful job of reminding me why I love the tale of Beren and Lúthien so much even though I'm not typically that interested in romantic stories. But when they are done this brilliantly ... I have to note, regarding Finrod's thoughts on Elven-Human marriages, that the marriage shall be brief and soon to end in death fits well with the short duration of a human life compared to that of an Elf. Didn't she alter Beren's fate by making the choice that reincarnated him? Yes, he would die again and then go beyond the circles of the world but I don't recall any other Man in Arda having two lives. Did the descendants of Elros only marry within what was considered Númenorean nobility as established around the time of its founding? Otherwise I think the Maia & Elven heritage introduced by Elros would have spread through a lot more of the Númenorean population over the centuries. Beyond that, it would be interesting to consider the long term effects of the alteration the Valar made to the Númenoreans to the population of Men as a whole. Were there long-term effects that continued well into the 4th Age (and possibly beyond)? I remember reading in The Nature of Middle Earth that what the Valar basically attempted to restore the Númenoreans to what Men were before the Fall as mentioned in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.
I hyped Beren and Luthien up when My Eldest Brother *Finally* Read The Silmarillion...Now he sees other Romances in Entertainment as weak compared to them!!! He loves the Story soo much, and he understands why "Huan" is the Best Dog's Name!!!
In this chapter (The History of Middle-earth - Volume 10: Morgoth's Ring: Part Three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion: II. The Second Phase: Laws and Customs among the Eldar: Of Re-Birth and Other Dooms of Those That Go to Mandos) refers to the formation of the spirit of the elven child (fëa) as a result of the 'incarnation and union of the spirits' belonging to the parents (mother and father), such as the formation of the child's body (hröa) as a result of the fusion of the elf's spirit, which will be born before the birth of the elves, and the genetic material from the masculine and feminine body is being done. How does this happen in the case of the half-elves? In the examples of Beren-Lúthien and Tuor-Idril, while it is possible for the spirit to be incarnated from the elven mother to the child, how is it possible for humans to incarnate the spirit from the human father in a similar way?
Maybe this is a pointless notion, but Seeing that Beren and Luthien's child is only conceived AFTER Luthien become mortal, doesn't that make it fully a mortal human instead of half-elvish? Or does its Luthien lineage Boost it up to that level anyway?
Well, Finrod does not seem to be totally correct in his surmise, because Aragorn and Arwen have a long and happy marriage (even though it is hard at the end). I am not sure that Finrod's statements should be taken as always true, just as his own views (which are often correct but are not necessarily automatically true).
Tolkien's takes on love are a case where I'm really not sure. These stories require the suffering of many who are uninvolved, yet serve in the interest of a romantic couple. Tolkien is generally good at avoiding subordination but I'm not terribly fond of this case. I much prefer Eowyn and Faramir, who find their affection - in my view - more authentically through their shared circumstances and perspectives. Modifying fate through being amorous seems, by comparison, petty. So I'm not with Tolkien on this count, I guess.
Is there information how pregnancy works with the elves ? Because being immortal gives you a chance to have hundreds of kids but elves only had few at most , also it can't be possible that they only made love to have two kids and never again in like 5000 years of life. What about accidental pregnancy or every Elf lady has like a limit to how many kids she can have and after that can't get pregnant
I never thought it through before, but Thingol (husband of Melian the Maia) being put out over his daughter marrying down is pretty un-selfaware. I mean I always thought he was acting like a dick, but had totally overlooked the irony/hypocrisy. Side note: Also, thx for the vid dump. I was just wondering if you had gone AWOL and then harvest time came and I was swamped. Love your work.
I just love that drawing at the end of each video. GNG high-fiving Feanor, Curufin and Celegorm all too happy to burn the ships, Maedhros standing by unwilling and a singed Amrod (or Amras, not sure) being comforted by his twin brother 😁
Beren even laughs at how cheaply the Sindar sell their daughters. It's only a Silmaril.
I shudder at what would have happened if Turin had been in Beren's shoes. "The son of Hurin requires no help, and no disguise. I WILL STORM ANGBAND HEAD-ON!"
I always imagine he's delivering those lines with a tinge of hysteria 🤣 "What have I gotten myself into, but more importantly, why did I ever expect anything else, of COURSE he asked for a freaking Silmaril...."
🤣
Moving Mandos to pity is no minor feat. Probably a bigger feat than putting Morgoth to sleep!
Agreed, Morgoth's pretty easily swayed by fleshly considerations, but as far as I know Mandos has only shown pity this ONE time 😆
Im not sure if it isn’t the best love story ever penned? Its up there for sure.
Even when you cover something that seems like a straightforward basics lesson you always manage to find some unique insights to add. Well done!
Thank you! This was something of a daunting topic to comment on 😁
Yet you did it with amazing profundity,@@GirlNextGondor... Is it possible that you are a latter day descendent of Beren&Lúthien yourself? 🧚♀
I always found it cute how The majority of the tale of Beren and Luthien is Beren getting his ass kicked, and Luthien scraping him off the floor with a spatula and patching him up.
I also like to think in his first encounter with Thingol, when Beren seems sort of shy and intimidated by him, that weird look Melian gives him is her telepathically lighting a fire under his arse, “My husband is being being stubborn, lay down the smack talk”.
is the story a screwball dramedy?
"Wingfoot I name you" That embarrassing moment when you try to give someone you just met a nickname and it doesn't really stick.
Tolkien's greatest rap battle too...
Which one, the one between Finrod and Sauron, or Luthien and Sauron? Morgoth doesn't count because he never got to battle 😔
@@GirlNextGondor You know who sways my heart more 😉
Your observation that Melian, Luthien and Arwen all effectively chose to combat Melkor’s infusion of himself into Arda by perpetuating their own parallel divine and semi-divine investment in the Children through marriage and offspring just brings the whole legendarium together for me. (The same could be said of Elros giving up deathlessness to instead more broadly share his heritage from Melian and Luthien with the Edain.) I really like the idea that love and sacrificing oneself for future generations can create an effective long-term bulwark against evil. So, thank you so much for this wonderful perspective. I admit that I’m a bit sad that the theme feels so... genetic, since I think that makes it susceptible to bad application, but I appreciate your tempering of the biological element by emphasizing a kind of inheritance of soul rather than bodily superiority. Even the legendarium has its pitfalls and limitations, and I think it’s useful to seek out less obvious but wiser readings that avoid doing harm, as I feel like you’ve done here.
One thing occurs to me when thinking about these marriages and their issue: it makes Sauron’s evil work in Numenor that much more tragic, for who knows how many unnamed others of Melian’s line through Elros, perhaps through marriages of daughters and second sons over many centuries, were overthrown in the cataclysm, erasing so many who shared in that divine heritage? While I’m sure some would have escaped with the Faithful, I have to imagine that many were lost, and that eliminating as many of them as possible would have likely been one more motive of Sauron’s.
Appreciate that - I also felt a bit of discomfort with some of the very 'lineage-based' conclusions that could be drawn from the importance of the Elf-Man unions, and I wanted to make sure my argument took into account all the other elements in the texts that emphasize instead the interrelatedness of all the kindreds, and how chance/Providence works through the self-sacrificing choices of the characters.
'... that most Elven of ideals, that, despite unspeakable depredations, Arda remained worthy of love ...'
Among the videos of sorrow and woe over a recent adaptation that come to us during the darkness of these days, there are yet some in which a focus on the author’s text brings joy. Amid strife and finger pointing over the adaptation, they eschew that topic and discuss these love tales. And of these analyses, the most fair to the eyes and ears of the TolkienTubers audience is GirlNextGondor’s study of Beren and Lúthien.
😍 aw, a tribute I can only hope to be worthy of! Thank you very much!
I love how Tolkien "inherently" or intuitivley knew the nuances of DNA when it comes to mixed species before people really knew what genetics even where.
One of my great regrets is that Tolkien died during the "Lamarck was Wrong" era and didn't live to see the "Oh Wait Actually Lamarck May Have Been Right (about some things)" sequel (aka epigenetics).
Since I first read the Silmarillion, quarter of a century ago, it never stopped perplexing me how Tuor got such a sweet deal from the Valar afterwards. Almost like a precedent made to be broken.
For Tolkien, the mythological inspiration for Beren and Luthien is no doubt the epic Orpheus & Eurydike but unlike the Greek tragedy Tolkien's story has a happy ending.
Notably in Tolkien's tale their roles are reversed; Orpheus plays on his harp and sings to put Cerberos/Carcaroth to sleep who guards the gate to the underworld/Angband while Luthien sings to put Morgoth to sleep. Orpheus sings once again to Hades who becomes so moved by his performance that he agrees in letting Eurydike go. In the last moment however, just as they are about to leave together, Orpheus looses Eurydike and Luthien looses her lover Beren. Luthien again mirroring Orpheus goes to the afterlife and sings to Mandos/Hades who agrees in letting Beren go, and resurrects them both.
Also Beren getting his hand cut off by Carcaroth is reminiscent of Tyr getting his bitten off by Fenris.
Edit: bitten off in both cases not cut
There's a lot of more overt mythic inspiration in this story for sure; I think Tolkien even called this his "Orphic" story.
Tolkien for the ancient mysteries. But remember, Frodo and Aragorn, who are Christ.
“Luthien kicks Sauron’s butt in a magical singing duel, assisted by Huan.” Am I the only one who now pictures Huan as Luthien’s back-up singer? Or her beat-boxer? Sauron never had a chance with the awesome musical powers of Luthien and Huan combined. 😂
There is presumably a lot of *howling* going on.... Perhaps it was a dual-duel, with Elven and canine vocalists?
One of my favorite parts of the Tale of Beren and Luthien is when Beren basically calls Thingol a cheap man with no idea of value at the latter's declaration that only once Beren has collected a simaril that Beren would have the father's blessing, as if Thingol asked for one copper coin. My only real hiccup on the story is that we learn what Beren's thought on the offer made to Luthien before they're resurrection. Was he even told, and what would he have wave wanted for her? This was a man that would have if he could, taken all three Silmarils to have her father's blessing, who left her in her sleep so that he could complete the quest he accepted to show his worth, I can't think of a third example for the tricolin, but he had to have an opinion and it would be nice to know it. I would wager he would accept her choice regardless, that his truest want would be the fulfillment of her want, but still get this nagging sensation because we are never explicitly shown if Beren knows of the offer and we aren't shown his opinions on the matter. But maybe I am asking the wrong question, I am focusing on the wrong detail. Perhaps if I were to stumble upon my own Luthien, like The Professor did, I'd get it.
Beren throwing that back in Thingol's face is almost as epic as what he says when he returns: "Hey, I just promised the Silmaril would be in my hand, I said nothing about the hand still being attached!"
I see what you're saying regarding Beren's concern for Luthien - he definitely seems the type to be opposed to Luthien sacrificing herself on his account. By the time she catches up with him at Angband, though, I think he realizes that she has the right to express her love and devotion to him, just as much as he shows dedication to her. This would be an extension of that. Also, given that Luthien has died of grief over him, as much as he might want her to live a happy life without him, he might also realize that's not possible for her 😆
I finally became interested in this love story once I realized/learned Beren is the great nephew of Andreth.
J.R.R. and Edith, the greatest love in the Tolkien universe, indeed!!!! ❤
Now with extra dogs!
This is by far my favorite story. A doomed quest, sacrifice, romance, and good boy Huan. I love how this tale is woven into everything, past and future. And knowing that this story is inspired by the love between Tolkien and his wife makes it even more beautiful and how high Tolkien regarded his wife and marriage.
Agreed luthien and beren seem destined for there roles and thier offspring to facilitate the resolution to the conflict.
When even Mandos admits it's important that you end up together you know it's Doomed
@@GirlNextGondor doom doom doom ( moria ) doomed . ( agreed)
Grateful to Tolkien that he gave their story a nicer ending by having them come back and have a kid. Older versions of the story had Luthien utterly fading away from the effect of wearing the Nauglamir, leaving Beren to a lifelong unavailing search for her all over again. Grateful to you for your rigorous study of the stories here!
In a world which celebrates studies of evil, Tolkien here showed in Beren and Luthien what truth and beauty are ( and I am not referring to luthiers looks).
Elegant and insightful commentary here. These tales are worthy of study and they are so well developed. The love between them is intricate and enveloping.
I loved the lord of the rings but I remember reading the Silmarillion and falling under a spell. That was many years ago. I think I shall reread it. Thanks.
I like this video so much that Imma sit here silently stupefied in this creepy ethereal forest until spring comes (or you drop the next video, whichever comes first)!
You'd be in good company, being stupefied in forests is a classic Tolkien power move 🤣 Glad you enjoyed it!
Your videos never cease to move me. Your look into the love stories of Tolkien’s legendarium is especially moving as I enjoy a love story even if the ending is preordained to be bittersweet. Somehow in them I find some kind of solace despite the bittersweet ending. I don’t really understand how this can be, but there it is. So thank you for the work that allows me to more deeply enjoy Tolkien’s work each time I read it. You are definitely an excellent interpreter of his work. Best wishes, InscrutableJohn
"elvish first base"
I choked with laughter at that. Didn't see that joke coming.
Woo, it truly is the Greatest Tolkien Love Story as you say. I’m excited to dive in.
Hope you enjoy!
I just finished reading the tolkien biography by humphrey carpenter and found myself surprised at how the relationship with tolkien and Edith was portrayed. But with how often the author expressed tolkiens love for his wife, the story of beren and luthien really sticks out to me when I reread the silmarillion.
It's hard to speculate on a marriage between two people who passed away 50 years ago, particularly two rather private people - I think Carpenter was concerned to avoid overly romanticizing their relationship, and I think like any long-married couple, they would have had their struggles and triumphs. Tolkien's inspiration for Beren and Luthien came from the early days of their relationship and so their story is a very passionate, romantic one (and wisely, he lets them gracefully exit the main narrative while they're still star-struck newlyweds.)
This is such a perfect explanation of why this story resonates so much. They're making decisions to be kind, to be reciprocal, to love and care inspite of all the problems.
Never has there been a love-story so beautiful in all the ages of Arda, only perhaps that of a certain linguistics professor and his much beloved wife could compare with it ;).
You did a great job here Lexi, really glad to see this video and to see that you plan to release a ton of content this month, am very excited for all of it!
Oh, and wanted to say thank you once again for the livestream, and hope that you remember between all your videos and work this month to get some rest my friend as that's a lot of content promised before Halloween!
Glad you enjoyed it -- and thanks again for hosting me this weekend, I had a great time!
@@GirlNextGondor It was my pleasure and honour, so you're very welcome Lexi.
I never thought of it until just now, but one of the striking things about Aragorn's power to heal, when put in the context of information we get in _Morgoth's Ring,_ is that he's able to practice both healing and warfare at the same time. (I mean, not _simultaneously,_ but in the sense that he doesn't have to give one up to practice the other, in accord with Elvish norms.)
Nice work thanks
Tolkien's ability to create the greatest love story in Beren And Luthien while at the same time creating one of the saddest and tragi story in the Children of Hirin, RESPEC professor RESPECT 😭
Even the Sylvan folk held Luthien in esteem. That’s a fascinating touch considering how the Avari are essentially isolated from the rest of the Elves. Even their Sylvan kin of Lothlorien.
The most wonderful homage any man gave to any woman.
One of the greatest love stories of all time.
Beren is my favorite character of all time. Sees a 10, asks her dad, dad says "go steal from a god", "bet", and through the power of the human spirit and hornyness he gets it done. Absolute legend.
This channel is criminally under-subscribed
Great stuff GNG, as ever you go right to the heart of the legendarium and the man. Ge was bereft of everything, he had the example of his mother who had given up wvwrything for the choice of her faith. He found Edith and was made to wait, being given a seemingly impossible task to win her. They were married and almost at once seperated by war, happily in the end reunited only to doe frpm one another, and who knows their ultimate fate after that? The beauty of them both holding fast to finding the magic in the world in everyday life has inspired me throughout my life. I often advise people to look for the magic in their eceryday life search for the beauty in their mundane surroundings in order to heal themselves from the vissicitudes of life. The love of Beren and Luthien manages to ameliorate the spoilation that is morgoths ring. thanks for remindig me of some of my reasons for loving this couple and this authot. keep up the good work.
Thanks for diving into one of my all-time favorite Tolkien tales!
Any time - this one is impossible to ignore!
Great opening art ( title) actually the art choices throughout the video wonderful.
So glad you enjoyed them!! I discovered some new faves
those detailed works i haven't seen used yet in other tolkien channels.
New GNG video? Today is a good day!
All that 'explaining' by Tolkien about Aragorn's healing, felt like he was just using a lot of words to say "you decide why he can use magic" . lol
You’re my favorite Tolkien UA-camr❤
I sometimes think about how Beren must have felt, finding out that Lúthien loved him back. Surprised, baffled - and scared. How do you live up to that? How do you honour the love of someone, especially someone you love, and most particularly, someone you (rightly) hold to be so far above you?
No wonder he chose estel with that experience.
Thanks Lexi! 😊
I'm going to need a film adaptation of this, like, yesterday.
This channel scratches a uniquely incessant itch I have for Tolkien content. Can't get enough
Absolutely lovely, thank you for all the work you put into this again! I will smash that like button like the tip of Angrist smashing through Morgoths cheek!
A very audacious and stabby like 😁 thank you!
I don't have time for a proper comment, but as always thought-provoking and just really good :)
Appreciate it 🥰
GOD, THANK YOU for addressing the conundrum of Dior! It's my most vexing question about the nature of elves and men. I've been desperate for some Tolkien content-creator to address this, and you're the first i've seen.
I've also come to the conclusion he must have been mortal (but not perhaps a "man", but maybe more accurately a mortal peredhel) as both his parents are mortal when he is conceived, and then the commentary from Christopher Tolkien concerning the version where all those with mortal ancestors are mortal. I'm curious how long he would have lived.
However, what really muddles the issue is that the Valar didn't seem concerned with the first peredhel, and only discussed the issue when one came knocking on thier door, and even then the Silm states that the ability to choose is for the offspring of Earendil, so Dior not involved. It's like Dior's early death allowed the Valar to just dump the issue for Mandos to figure out.
Also, no one seems to comment that a mortal is now ruling Doriath, once the greatest elven kingdom in Beleriand, and has wed a Sindar elf. Was Nimloth's fate affected by her love of the probably mortal Dior?
And the silm states that no mortal ever saw Beren and Luthien after they came back from the dead, but what about thier kid?
And why don't Elros's kids get the choice, or Aragorn's kids? Back to the rule about mortal ancestors? But Elrond and Arwen have mortal ancestors...
*pulls hair*
I KNOW RIGHT?! 😂 So glad I'm not the only one lying awake stressing about how little Dior makes sense, on so many levels.
I recorded a 20-minute rant about it as bonus content for the Patrons; I do plan on publishing that in the next couple of months so you might want to keep an eye out for that. The seeming-indifference of the Doriathrim to their ELVEN kingdom being taken over by a Mortal (?) whose title is 'Aranel' and whose kids/heirs are supposedly mortal as well, in particular, is something that galls.
@GirlNextGondor
Someone on reddit suggested that the Quendi of Beleriand had no precedent, and probably no idea what he was or what the deal was. He's the heir, he looks amazing, and he is Luthien's kid.... soo, Eluchil it is..?
The Athrabeth is so moving because we actually see the unknowing and uncertainty of the Children, the midst of Arda. I can imagine a well written fan fiction in the style of the Athrabeth of some Doriathrim nobles or guards secretly discussing the issue: if birthright trumps the mortality ambiguity, his grandmother IS devine, perhaps Eru designates this a new people?, etc.
Would be tragic if Nimloth got to Mandos expecting to be reunited, and he wasn't there :(
Anyway, thanks again! I'll check the patreon, that sounds entricing!
Probably need the new year's finances to kick in.
I really like the idea of "Elvishness" as more of a spectrum than a clean divide. The fates, and thus natures, of Elvish and mortal souls remain fundamentally different but the amount of "spiritual strength" and the amount of control over the body the souls have can still vary.
6:01 It's a minor clarification, but Finrod is never said to have advised Aegnor against pursuing a relationship with Andreth. I've seen people claim Finrod played a part in preventing their relationship in Tolkien communities, but as I read the Athrabeth there isn't any involvement of Finrod beyond the very conversation we are reading: Finrod giving reasons - decades later, after it has been decided that it's not happening - for why an Aegnor-Andreth marriage would've been a bad idea.
As for the theme of great deeds that Men can accomplish, and the hope that we can have and embody, I always have to think back to what Ulmo says about our great forebearers (in Unfinished Tales): "For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which they had on earth so little."
Agreed - the 'fate' may be the determining factor and seems to be pretty binary, but I don't think it's quite fair to classify Dior's nature as entirely 'mannish', just as it doesn't seem right to classify Elrond as wholly Elven, even after his explicit choice.
I definitely think that Finrod gets an undeserved hard time over the Aegnor/Andreth thing; I think Finrod probably *discussed* it with Aegnor ("is he not my brother dearly loved?"), but while it seems they agreed on it being an unwise choice, all Finrod's doing in Athrabeth is justifying Aegnor's choices to Andreth (and maybe trying to discourage *her* from pursuing it further).
And that last bit is I think the defining factor of all the great Elf/Man alliances and friendships 🥰
I think Luthien's choice wasn't just about babies, but about sharing Beren's eternal fate. It wasn't just about giving him descendants, but about not wanting to have separate fates after death.
I love your intelligence. You have such amazing insights I never would have thought of. Amazing.
Excellent! Keep up the great work Mellon! You are very talented and I really appreciate it. Your love for Tolkien's works is scholarly. I know THIS IS THE GREATEST Love story of loyalty, honor, love again, death, love one more time, and THE BESTEST boi who ever existed...Huan touched my heart ❤ May the sun be at your back and your heart the 🧭
ECTHELION!
Thank you Mellon! Glad you enjoyed it, this was such an important story and I feel like there's so much more that could be said!
@@GirlNextGondor hmm...(long draw of wooden tobacco pipe) indeed ma'am. If a creator could pitch a show about just the stories of Middle earth...just do that, tell stories of Middle Earth . So it can be that the story of Tuor slayed 5 balrogs and one wretched mole...Eärendil father. Th Fall of Gondollin could be 5 seasons easily..I know I know rights and all...but that story needs to be told. Sorry for ranting on Mellon. ECTHELION!
Thanks for making me love the story even more 🥰
You r hilarious n very talented. Love it ❤❤❤ love your confidence. You deserve so much more views. Your voice is extremely beautiful n lovely ❤❤❤
Thank you so much!!
I cried many times listening to this video---touched all my soft points!!!! love your videos GirlNextDoor!!!! one of the best tolkien lore explorers on UA-cam!
Thank you very much! Doing the research for this video I was reminded of how moving the Beren and Luthien story is, especially in the little details like Luthien's tears hitting Mandos' feet like rain on the stones, or the fact that Beren is so badly wounded by Carcharoth he can't speak even to say goodbye to Luthien, but he holds on long enough to look into her eyes 😢
Thanks for the video!
Thanks for providing the great video.
The equation of love for Melian/Thingol, Luthien/Beren, and Arwen/Aragorn:
Lady frolicking in the woods + man espies her through the trees = love
Idril/Tuor was a bit different. If memory serves, they first met when Tuor walked into Turgon's throne room in Gondolin. Though, I'll have to reread to check if it was love at first sight. I'm thinking in their case maybe it was not.
Ah yes, that one time Sauron got recked by a plus sized dog. :P
I would still consider their life to be relatively happy by Silmarillion standards.
These videos are so well made.
Thanks for this. Love your take. Please keep doing more vids.
I’ve always found it interesting that, when the descendants of the various unions of elves and men, i.e. Elrond and Elros, were given the choice of being men or elves, for Elrond’s children that choice was continued at least one more generation, but that the offspring of Elros, even his own immediate children, were not extended the same choice.
Fascinating world, fascinating video. (Although I have a really hard time understanding the morals of Tolkien: too many wars, too many sword fights, too many (elven male) drama queens, and too few magical inventions).
Thumbnail Beren looks like Richard Armitage’s Thorin Oakenshield.
WELCOME BACK!
He was her love, but he was also her doom.
If I'm being completely honest, I don't love the characters of Beren and Luthien, nor is their story one of my favorites (I think I'm a bit too much of a Fëanorian fan haha). But, their actions and union are fundamental to Arda's tale and in producing some of the greatest characters to ever live (I mean, without them there would be no Elrond, Aragorn, Elendil and countless others). I really enjoyed how much you highlighted their importance here! And as with all your videos, I love the visuals that accompany!
You did a beautiful job of reminding me why I love the tale of Beren and Lúthien so much even though I'm not typically that interested in romantic stories. But when they are done this brilliantly ...
I have to note, regarding Finrod's thoughts on Elven-Human marriages, that the marriage shall be brief and soon to end in death fits well with the short duration of a human life compared to that of an Elf.
Didn't she alter Beren's fate by making the choice that reincarnated him? Yes, he would die again and then go beyond the circles of the world but I don't recall any other Man in Arda having two lives.
Did the descendants of Elros only marry within what was considered Númenorean nobility as established around the time of its founding? Otherwise I think the Maia & Elven heritage introduced by Elros would have spread through a lot more of the Númenorean population over the centuries.
Beyond that, it would be interesting to consider the long term effects of the alteration the Valar made to the Númenoreans to the population of Men as a whole. Were there long-term effects that continued well into the 4th Age (and possibly beyond)? I remember reading in The Nature of Middle Earth that what the Valar basically attempted to restore the Númenoreans to what Men were before the Fall as mentioned in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.
Was there ever a more wonderful bromance than the one between Eomer & Aragorn? 😍
Superb!
Thanks so much!
I hyped Beren and Luthien up when My Eldest Brother *Finally* Read The Silmarillion...Now he sees other Romances in Entertainment as weak compared to them!!! He loves the Story soo much, and he understands why "Huan" is the Best Dog's Name!!!
I can't think of having a child unless it's the fruition of a great love... 🥀
I love this story so much 😊. I’ve always wondered though why Beren and Luthien weren’t given the option to choose an elven fate? Anyone have ideas?
If anyone here even looks at Luthien the wrong way it's gonna be a problem.
❤
I wholeheartedly agree, it moved me so greatly I felt compelled to edit together visual+musical audiobook for it
Thingol is the most imperious of Elves. A blundering mortal has no right in his lands, let alone to his daughter. Of course he is wrong.
They remind me of St Margaret and Malcom the Third
Thanks lexi .
Welcome as always, Mr. Nolan
@@GirlNextGondor have a good week ms lexi , and best to the family.
In this chapter (The History of Middle-earth - Volume 10: Morgoth's Ring: Part Three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion: II. The Second Phase: Laws and Customs among the Eldar: Of Re-Birth and Other Dooms of Those That Go to Mandos) refers to the formation of the spirit of the elven child (fëa) as a result of the 'incarnation and union of the spirits' belonging to the parents (mother and father), such as the formation of the child's body (hröa) as a result of the fusion of the elf's spirit, which will be born before the birth of the elves, and the genetic material from the masculine and feminine body is being done. How does this happen in the case of the half-elves? In the examples of Beren-Lúthien and Tuor-Idril, while it is possible for the spirit to be incarnated from the elven mother to the child, how is it possible for humans to incarnate the spirit from the human father in a similar way?
U didnt mention berens great move when he tried to pry a 2nd simimaril from the crown!
Hey everyone I have one question if there was a Beren and Luthien Movie and do you think that after the end credits would show Tolkien’s tombstone?
I sure hope so!
Given modern Hollywood, I pray that it is not touched by them.
Would depend on whether they could secure the rights to the image. But it would be fitting for sure.
Romeo and Juliet, eat your heart out
Maybe this is a pointless notion, but Seeing that Beren and Luthien's child is only conceived AFTER Luthien become mortal, doesn't that make it fully a mortal human instead of half-elvish? Or does its Luthien lineage Boost it up to that level anyway?
Did you make a video about how much they did Denethor dirty in the movies? Can't find
Well, Finrod does not seem to be totally correct in his surmise, because Aragorn and Arwen have a long and happy marriage (even though it is hard at the end). I am not sure that Finrod's statements should be taken as always true, just as his own views (which are often correct but are not necessarily automatically true).
what happened to part 2?
Tolkien's takes on love are a case where I'm really not sure. These stories require the suffering of many who are uninvolved, yet serve in the interest of a romantic couple. Tolkien is generally good at avoiding subordination but I'm not terribly fond of this case. I much prefer Eowyn and Faramir, who find their affection - in my view - more authentically through their shared circumstances and perspectives. Modifying fate through being amorous seems, by comparison, petty.
So I'm not with Tolkien on this count, I guess.
Is there information how pregnancy works with the elves ? Because being immortal gives you a chance to have hundreds of kids but elves only had few at most , also it can't be possible that they only made love to have two kids and never again in like 5000 years of life. What about accidental pregnancy or every Elf lady has like a limit to how many kids she can have and after that can't get pregnant
Aquaman!!
FUckin sick name!
Turin Turambar
I never thought it through before, but Thingol (husband of Melian the Maia) being put out over his daughter marrying down is pretty un-selfaware. I mean I always thought he was acting like a dick, but had totally overlooked the irony/hypocrisy. Side note: Also, thx for the vid dump. I was just wondering if you had gone AWOL and then harvest time came and I was swamped. Love your work.
Sam and Frodo >>>>>>> Beren and Luthien
Sam does invoke them in Mordor; maybe he was inspired.
Recall that both Frodo and Beren have thier hands damaged
Watching now!