"It is only then that she accepts the gift of men, forsaking the hollow promises of the world, leaving it behind to go seeking Estel." That's so well written! Ugh, my heart! Beautiful work as always
I cannot help but draw comparison to Arwen's evident heartbreak at Aragorn's passing, and the hints of Tolkien's own grief at the passing of Edith in his last years.
After almost 40 years of 'betrothal' I think I'm justified in claiming that, as far as Arwen and Aragorn were concerned, this Business With the Hobbits took place over such a short span that it must have boiled down to: hijinks. Plus, lest we forget, Pippin was involved.
Please don't blaspheme for it disrespects God, He always loves you unconditionally and waits for you to come back to Him, please repent May our good God bless you and your loved ones, have a nice day Psalm 23 John 3:16
Let's also point out, when Elrond set the bar for Aragorn to become King of Gondor and Arnor, he set him a task that was reasonable, if not his destiny. Much more so than retrieving an impossible treasure.
Yes and Elrond very much prepared him for this task until adulthood and supported him. Unlike in the films - Aragorn and Elrond were both keen as mustard for him to become King. Elrond's concern is for his daughter as he knew the heartbreak and grief it would cause her and no parent would want their child to experience that. He also knew this was happening in a time when Elves were leaving Middle Earth, and knew that come Aragorns death there would be few if any of her Elven kin to support her and also won't be able to go to Valinor. If I was Elrond and I had raised Aragorn and due to my foresight knew this was needed if evil was to be defeated and all was going well - planning my retirement to Valinor - then Aragorn throws a massive curve ball and wants to marry my only daughter, i would be like, oh ffs ..
@@letstalkherps4937 Thingol specifically meant for the task to be impossible - specifically telling Melian if there was any chance Beren would come back alive to Menegroth, Thingol would have slain/imprisoned Beren, to Mandos with his oath to Luthien! So yes, definitely didn't have foresight on that occasion...
I'm not even sure it can be described as "set him a task". It felt more like, "no, boy, do NOT get distracted, and to make sure you're not distracted, I'm going to link your two goals so that they're one and the same".
You do have a way with words. Galadriel 'unleashing' Aragorn on Arwen had me chuckling. I could just picture the White Lady giving a gentle push on the back of a reluctant Strider.
@@louisvictor3473 Galadriel lost one of her brothers to unconsummated mortal love, she would not like to have another of her kin confined to Mandos for ever for nothing in return...
Finrod: this is a terrible idea and I am sending you back to the front before you can involve our House in further Doom. Galadriel: DO IT DO IT DO IT --
Of the various adjectives, complimentary and otherwise, I've accrued over the years... 'economical' has never been one 🤣🤣 Though I do find it funny that, from Aragorn's perspective, the War of the Ring was the climactic, but *brief*, end of his 5-decade quest to secure himself an Elfmaid.
Ugh, “rather in ignorance than in courage is it made.” As a young widow this is so true. You make these big pledges of forever love and you know intellectually that the best case scenario is that you stay together until one of you dies. Because death is what separates you when nothing else can. Then it happens and you only get to know in retrospect how immense the agreement you made was. Being the one left behind sucks. I am really happy in love a decade later, but going into it with open eyes, *knowing* what the cost is, is the single bravest thing I’ve ever done. Nothing hurts like that but I can confirm it’s worth it.
Same here. I loved her to the end. With her last strength she reached up and caressed my cheek. A bittersweet and cherished memory. My wife now is very different and I love her just as much. My first wife's name, and the name of her deceased fiance are held in high honor in our house. It is a beautiful thing that neither of us are jealous of a memory, and it is one of the things that brings us so close together with a pure love. I would prefer to die before she does out of selfishness, but that is not a choice any of us can nobly make. God bless you!
@adriangutierrez441 To love someone is to want the highest good for that person. You can argue about what the highest good is, for me it is doing everything to get that person into heavenly glory. I believe that my first wife did attain that. Therefore, my love for her was completed. It could go no further. Our covenant of marriage ended with her death. I was free to seek a new spouse as per her dying wishes. But I was not free to forget her and move on, as some people put it, nor would I want to. I was free to begin the next phase of my life, a life that has been utterly changed by her. Her name is held in high honor in our house. We are not jealous of memories, nor do we long for days that we can never have again. We live in the here and the now, understanding that an integral part of our marriage covenant is to get each other to heaven, that is, to facilitate each other's journey to holiness and to never be a stumbling block to the other. All this may sound strange to some, but that is the true meaning of love and marriage. I know that is what Tolkien wrote about, or at least had in mind, because he and I both come from the same philosophical and theological source. Happy Easter and God bless you!
Really expected a more downbeat ending with that thumbnail, but your final comments about the significance of her dying in a faded Lorien was a happy (bittersweet?) way to think of it that I’d never thought of.
I love how in the background of all that's happening with the Ring and the possible end of the world, Elrond also has to deal with the Arwen/Aragorn soap opera for like decades. Also Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth is a must read, it is emotionally powerful and explores the essential relationship between men, elves, Melkor and Eru. Also, also, Finrod is the best.
Arwen made the right call in ways she did not understand. As an elf, her fate would be the Halls of Mandos, and then life in Valinor until the end of Arda. As a human, her fate was the Halls of Mandos and then to dwell eternally with Eru Illuvitar. The elves were confined to the circles of the world. Men were not. Good choice, Arwen!?
I've never thought about the meaning of Arwen being referred to as Evenstar. She presides over the dawn of men, but from the perspective of Middle Earth she is one of the last elven stars presiding over the world. Barring whatever Moriquendi decided to remain and fade. I wonder what conversations she might have had with these elves in her last years. I imagine such conversations would be like a reprisal of the conversation of Aegnor and Andreth.
I tend to think that letting your fear of losing a good thing prevent you from ever having it is no way to live, and certainly not to live forever. Of course I am entirely too mortal to really relate to an immortal's fear of inevitable death for the first time, but I can still safely say I think she made the right choice.
Well, she literally chose to die even if she had a perfectly realistic possibility not to do so... that’s something which, by definition, no human being could ever comprehend. I personally find her impact with human bitter reality quite wonderful... may sound silly, but it reminds me of Jesus saying to God “if possible, let this cup pass from me”. That impact with reality sure is difficult to bear... we’re humans, we’re used to it since birth: understanding that this might not be the case for someone who wasn’t doomed to this fate is a high point of Tolkien.
Aragorn/Arwen being not as close of a parallel to Beren/Luthien that people make it out to be is SO TRUE. The circumstances of their relationship and eventual death are pretty different beyond surface level comparisons. Have you heard of the headcanon that in-universe, their story is heavily compared to Beren and Luthien as a way for the people of Gondor to accept Arwen as an "outsider" queen? Basically using what would be legend (to Gondorians) to justify an elven marriage.
I have not but that's an excellent explanation. Even in the Tale, there' a sense of resignation when Aragorn mistakes Arwen for Luthien. "Oh how original, trying to flatter me by comparing me to my own dead great great grandmother 😒" I like the idea that she gets to weaponize a story she's lived in the shadow of for so long!
Excellent analysis! You raised so many good points about Arwen’s motivations. It also reminds me a bit of Thingol and Melion and how she split from Doriath after his death.
I'm not going to lie Lexi, you broke me to tears that stayed in my eyes hroughout the last 5 minutes of this. Thank you for this video about love and yet another contemplative piece on the inevitable fate of man
@@GirlNextGondor haha it's fine 😅 Mortality, aging and inevitable death and subsequent temporal oblivion have been on my mind a lot for the past few months due to the twilingt years of close family members quickly progressing, but the way you handle these themes from Tolkien's texts is quite comforting and it does wonders to soothe those anxieties. Your last line ending in "leaving [the world] behind to go seeking Estel" *really* got me.
I never understood why they were so much compared to Beren and Luthien, except the physical resemblance. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. 😅 The way he wrote the last part about Arwen though, it's very interesting. At first read you're tempted to judge her, just leaving and wondering the world. Especially given how their whole story is, you'd expect her to become the dowager queen behind the throne, she was still "full of life" and "had responsibilities". It was only in later reads that i understood her. And why she died in Lorien, what that place going through a regular winter meant to her. I remember when i first read that part i thought "why didn't she just go meet with Legolas and Gimli, or look for the avari or smth?! Why go to a place you know is empty and full of death?!" Like with many other things in Tolkien, it takes a bit of thought and attention to the text to get the real meaning. And even so i still can't help but wish she'd done something with herself afterwards. Lol! Longing for a happy ending i suppose... Plus the knowledge that as a human you have to move on. I've often wondered what it would be like if you could just decide to go to sleep one day and never wake up. I wonder how it would be to know you always have that choice, and it's "the norm". And it amazes me that you have that in Tolkien, who was such a staunch catholic.
I started hearing Queen's "Who Wants To Live Forever?" playing my head while you were speaking. Such a beautiful song (and it fits this rather well). There's a good reason that appendix was left in even editions of LOTR where most of the others were omitted, although I don't remember if the account of Númenor and its downfall was included (which provides important context for obvious reasons).
Yes. In Appendix A - "Annals of the Kings and Rulers - Numenorean Kings", there is a breakdown of the Kings of Numenor and a concise version of the Downfall.
Sort of like the Book of Wisdom in Catholic/Orthodox Bibles (and the rest of the second part of the canon set out first in the Synod of Rome (382 A.D ) that comments on all the rest of the text and helps you see a new Way of interpretation encountered again in Perfection on the way to Emmaus.
Love for a mortal is very different than for elves. We live all our days in the shadow of death, knowing that we will one day lose everyone and thereafter will never in life see them again. Elves do not; Arwen had known her family for nearly three thousand years, and if she had departed with them would have kept them until the end of days. It's perhaps understandable that she did not comprehend the price of her choice until the account came due.
Galadriel intentionally matched Arwen & Aragorn together while both visited Lothlorien! A&A met in Rivendell, & that is where Aragorn fell in love with her, she didn’t feel the same at the time. Aragorn’s mother Gilraen warned him that he was aiming too high, and Elrond was not happy about it either, and Aragorn took heed of this and left Rivendell, to learn how to be a Ranger and to oppose Sauron’s forces. Many years later, he came to Lothlorien, seeking rest and shelter, and Galadriel allowed him to enter. We have this line in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: ‘But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.’ LOTR Appendices. To me, that makes it rather explicit that Galadriel wanted Aragorn to appear at his best. Why? Who could he possibly impress in Lothlorien, except for Galadriel’s grand-daughter? I think it is quite clear that she wanted them matched, and perhaps her foresight told her that they needed to be matched, as it was part of destiny, to begin the Dominion of Men (something Elrond probably also realised, but couldn’t willingly promote, since it would mean Arwen and Elrond would be parted forever). Plus there is the scene in Lorien, where Galadriel gives Aragorn the Elessar, which went from Galadriel to Celebrian to Arwen and then back to Galadriel in order that she give it as a gift to Aragorn. Again it speaks to me as a collaborative act, and part of Galadriel helping bring the two together: And Aragorn answered: “Lady, you know all my desire, and long held in keeping the only treasure that I seek. Yet it is not yours to give me, even if you would; and only through darkness shall I come to it.” “Yet maybe this will lighten your heart,' said Galadriel; for it was left in my care to be given to you, should you pass through this land.” Then she lifted from her lap a great stone of a clear green, set in a silver brooch that was wrought in the likeness of an eagle with outspread wings; and as she held it up the gem flashed like the sun shining through the leaves of spring. “This stone I gave to Celebrían my daughter, and she to hers; and now it comes to you as a token of hope. In this hour take the name that was foretold for you, Elessar, the Elfstone of the house of Elendil!” From LOTR FOTR BOOK
I have to report to you what I thought about Aragorn and Arwen the first time I read LOTR in high school. If I knew that marrying my girlfriend would mean that my love's lifespan would be GREATLY reduced, I would leave her without a second look. THAT is what real love means.
With that line of thinking, you must think that Elrond was a horrible father for letting his immortal daughter become a mortal wife. If he really loved her, he would have brought her to the Undying Lands before Aragorn had a chance to become King, right?🙄
For me, the tragedy of Arwen is that she learned jack shit from all those generations of her distant kin being fostered in her father's home. She hadn't lost everything with Aragorn's death. She had children. Would have grandchildren. All those generations and she never learned how to deal with the loss of a spouse by taking comfort and joy in the children and grandchildren. If Men had been as hopeless as Arwen, the race wouldn't have made it if every time a spouse died, the other spouse just gave up and soon just laid down and died.
I hear that! I think it is a little complicated, though, by the difference between Aragorn laying down his life voluntarily after 120 years of rule, because he knows his time is done and his son is ready to be king, and the usual 'involuntary' death that can't be predicted, and that might well require a surviving spouse to continue to guide the family. Arwen's temptation seems to have been to *stay* with the kids, and grandkids, and greatgrandkids, longer than was needed. Now Luthien, and Melian, on the other hand... !
Tolkien's cyclical storytelling is present throughout the works. Therefore, it is natural to see parallels in the story of Aragorn and Arwen from the stories of other couples. I think that the reason why Aragorn was raised by Elrond like a son was due to the fact that Elrond (with his brother Elros) was raised by Maglor.
A great and realistic look at this love story! Do you believe that Arwen's soul left Arda (to places unknown to all but Eru) as did Aragorn's soul? Were they reunited in this place unknown?
While I understand inserting the romance as a subplot in the movies, I do not believe it was handled well. It resulted in misleading views of multiple characters although at least the Arwen at Helm's Deep scenes were cut. Having Arwen seemingly start dying was just one of those things that made me go 'huh?' And Elrond's hostility towards their relationship and towards Men in general was completely out of character for someone who was the best Elven friend Men ever had. While Elrond knew that her deciding to stay in Middle-Earth with Aragorn would cause him much grief, he was wise enough not to stand in its way beyond insisting there be a future for her in Middle-Earth. He did not want her to end up as a slave of Sauron or to meet some other horrible fate. And don't even get me started on the whole 'Aragorn walking away from being king' from the first part of the movies. I have wondered how long Arwen would have lived had her grief over the loss of Aragorn not overwhelmed her. She certainly hadn't aged right along with Aragorn. Would she have eventually aged and died like a mortal, perhaps after a few more centuries like Elros?
@@Enerdhil I forget exactly where this was written but I believe Eldarion lived about as long as Aragorn and after that the life expectancy of his line declined.
This series was beautiful, thank you so much. Just binged it. You always talk about the stories of Middle-earth in new ways that I'd never seen or thought of before, but seem so clear and vital in retrospect.
I'm convinced there is an origin for the Aragorn and Arwen story in Scottish traditions recorded in "Popular Rhymes of Scotland" by Robert Chambers, 1868. In their edition of "On Fairy-stories" Verlyn Flieger and Douglas Anderson list this as a work consulted by Tolkien. In the section about Thomas the Rhymer (True Thomas, the figure in the ballad) one of Thomas's prophecies is given as
When Dee and Don shall run in one, And Tweed shall run in Tay, The bonnie water o' Urie Shall bear the Bass away. The Bass is a conical mount, of remarkable appearance, and about forty feet high, rising from the bank of the Urie, in the angle formed by it at its junction with the Don. Alert, alert! Tolkien loved himself a river-angle. There are about four in his writings, notably the angle of the Hoarwell and Loudwater in Eriador and (more to the point) the angle of Celebrant and Anduin. The Bass mound therefore answers to Cerin Amroth. A fact not mentioned in Chambers is that it lies within the churchyard, that is graveyard, of the church of Inverurie, Aberdeenshire -- and that here is the grave of one Marjorie Elphinstone, dating from the 17th century. According to legend, Marjorie was thought to have died, and was buried in her wedding finery, including rings on her fingers. That night the sexton dug her up, and was about to cut off one of her fingers, meaning to steal a ring. Upon which the poor woman ran home in her wedding gown and bare feet. She lived out her life, died, and was buried again, so is said to have been "twice buried". "And there is her green grave, until the world is changed"
Hijinks. Wonderfully funny. You have a good grasp on this story. I feel like the professor felt his Edith was indeed far above him, and with his Catholic reverence for Mary, he probably sees in general women’s as being above us men. Fair enough we can be rough creatures. One thing though, Arwen chooses the gift of men, meaning she unlike her kin will live beyond Arda, a tough choice still to make but a different choice. I love the differences in the romances in the legendarily, though all have great similarities. Thanks GNG.
I wonder now if Elrond was in any way bitter that he never got to meet his 4 grandchildren by Arwen and Aragorn. Eldarion was born the year after his parents wedding/coronation but the girls had to be born around the time he took the journey West and after. And I wonder also if he was annoyed his sons never settled down; if, perchance, they arrived in Valinor to find their father being oddly treated as a doted upon youth flanked by his wife, grandma Idril, grandpap Tuor, his mother briefly between dusk and dawn before assuming her swan form to see his father, and Nerdanel who's just happy to have company that isn't her statues anymore and was all "Well, look what the hounds of Orome dropped in. Still single I see, what kept you so long? No paramours obviously.'
@@EnerdhilFëanor is the father of Fingolfin, Fingolfin is an ancestor of Elrond. And the ancestor of many Including Aragorn,who is pretty much related to all the important Eldar and Edain.
An end comes to all things, but Arwen's life had in one sense been of continuation, even though she knew she was the evenstar of her people and the fading of the elves was happening. But she had already lived a long elven life when she met Aragorn, and living with Galadriel in Lorien had reinforced her perception of reality as being a continuation despite what she knew intellectually. So she knew that her time with Elessar would come to an end some day, but as long as it remained distant the knowledge didn't have the same impact on her as it did when his death finally arrived. Indeed, even during her years with Elessar she still considered the frailties of men with some contempt, and it was only when it was impacting her with relationship with Elessar coming to an end that she finally understood somewhat better what it meant to be mortal and the bitterness of loss. She had already lost her father and would never see him, her mother and possibly her brothers [assuming they eventually went to the West] again. Love and relationships come to an end, and the two paths, to love another or be alone [as in my case], both end. The first with the grief and pain of loss, the second with loneliness. Arwen discovered the pain of love that becomes lost and was unwilling to let go. Nothing could have prepared her for what it would be like to experience it, as the loss of parents can be thought about for years before, yet be of no help when the grief of such events actually happen.
Descend like a doom long forseen upon the like button??? No! I shall shotgun my way to it like button like how you shotgunned through the events of LotR in your summary by simply saying "Hijinks Ensue"!
I'd just like to point out that the material recounted in this video is one of the four major planks in my "Elu Thingol is the actual worst" thesis. For the curious, the other three are: 1. he's a _huge_ anti-human racist, a trait which appears at its worst not even _here,_ but in the outrageous "condition" he set Haleth for living in Brethil, and her reply to him let him off _light;_ 2. you sent two guys to the Nirnaeth, dude? I get that you hate the Feanorians, but really? two guys? _TWO_ guys. f**k you; and 3. how dumb, as well as arrogant, can you possibly be, that you insult a room full of armed Dwarves while you are in it _alone?_
Powerful narrative, the final one chronologically, of Middle Earth, the last spark of Elvendom flicker ind dying. The only possible hope is that Arwen's spirit met that of Aragorn beyond the Circles of the World, which is a matter of faith as with Beren and Luthien. Arwen didn't get to "sing sorrowless" together with Aragorn, though. 💔 And the Appendix carries on with the history of Rohan --- how bleak...
Technically speaking … what would happen to Arwen if they just had a divorce a couple of years later? You know, he turns out to be all about the work and she turns out to be snoring like a windmill … “It just didn’t work out”
elves do not believe in divorce... The mere concept is incomprehensible to them. If they grow estranged, they just separate and live apart and call it a day, they only remarry if their spouse is refusing or is forbidden to leave Mandos... and there was only one such case ever reported...
I'm always excited to see a new upload from you, and this one provoked many thoughts as well as some tears. Extremely well argued and articulated. Thank you!
In the last entry of the Tale of Years, it says that _"Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea."_ Cirdan himself may still have been in Middle-earth at any rate, but since Elves had gone overseas from at least one other haven besides Lindon's, his personal presence and handiwork seems never to have been strictly essential.
Great video. Apropos of nothing really, you reminded me that that "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" has one of my least loved bits of Tolkien writing in it, Arwen's line: "Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers," after Aragorn first encounters her and calls her Tinuviel. Sure, Arwen was no doubt experiencing some of the foresight of her bloodline, but what a thing for a person to say, lol! Of course that also reminds me of one of my favorite bits of Tolkien writing: "But I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." Relatable!
That whole first conversation seethes with the painful awkwardness of failed flirtation 🤣 the degree to which this was intentional on Tolkien's part, is matter for debate
I've always wondered what was the length of time period between Aragorns death and Arwens? The text appears to make it sound like it was not a very long time but it's also vague. Arwen had a son and at least two daughters that we know of, so did she spend years with them that must have been some comfort to her? Plus grandchildren, I wonder if they were quite old themselves when she left or they were still young adults? How did they feel about their mother choosing to leave, wonder if they felt abandoned? Also her brothers Elladan and Elrohir, if we go by the text in LOTR which states specifically that they stayed behind and also that grandpa Celeborn went to say with them for a a time, so I wonder if they were still around, I would imagine so. Also I've always assumed Arwen left the circles of the world as do all humans - so at least we can hope she reunited with Aragorn in wherever it is they go. *Edit - it was a year after Aragorns death, so that does leave the question of her children being alive and her two brothers and any children they had - must have been hard for them.
Arwen left right away for Lothlorien where she wandered aimlessly for about a year among dying mallorn trees before she died. As she was married to Aragorn for 120 years even given the Numeneorean aging rate Eldarion was already quite old, and his sisters for sure grandmothers if not great-grandmothers already.
@@Chociewitka I would guess that Eldarion ruled for 100 years. As for his sisters, they probably lived longer. Did Eldarion go the rest of his life without a woman, or did he become Solomon? Did his sisters remarry and have kids after their husbands died? If so they must have a lot of kids who grew up and had a lot of kids, etc. At the time of each person's death, there must have been hundreds of people who could trace their blood line to Elessar and Arwen.🤔 Personally, I would think that Tolkien would give the line Elros the Lobito of an Elf, so very few children and ONE wife/husband.
If Eladrion had married even in his actual 40s - as Aragorn's only heir he had to marry relatively "early" - his wife having to be at least 20 years old at the time - so then she would be around 100 years old when Eldarion ascended the throne, and his children around 80-60 year old, so Eldarion must have had some grandchildren in their 30-40s... Those then would been Arwen's great-grandchildren. There is still the possibility of even one additional younger generation being there already.
Because I find the deepest despair an individual experiences to be directly related to the height of their joy, yeah … I think Arwen made the right choice ❤️🔥
about embodied elves, there's a missing thread on the tolkien stories, if they tend to be reborn then there should be some continuation to some dramas, like the ones of feanor. there should be a story were amrod comes back to middle earth after many ages.
I feel like it would be interesting to dive into all the Wisdom that Finrod managed to produce until his untimely departure coutesy of gigantic curced Chihuahua.
Galadriel: so Finrod, you're foresighted, right? Finrod: that's so G: so, then, you must have had some idea... F: ... G:... F: ugh, yes, I KNEW ABOUT THE CHIHUAHUA and went to my death regardless, are you happy now?!?
Correction: Arwen had already accepted the gift of men and gave up her immortality long before she went back to Lothlorien now abandoned. I can't remember the exact time at the moment, but when Sauron was defeated and Aragorn made king, she saw that she truly had a future with Aragorn if she so chose. She already said she would cleave herself to him years prior, but she had not given up her immortality yet. It was only when a good future was set, did she then give it up. It was when she told Frodo that she gave up her place on the ship. She had chosen the fate of men, and now there was a spare spot on the ship that Frodo could take if he chooses. Then on Aragorn's deathbed, Arwen reminds him that she had already given up her immortality and no ship would be able to bear her west. Aragorn's and Arwen's story is even more tragic when you read how Tolkien set up the years of the elves compared to men. By doing the math, for Aragorn, they were happily married for years, but to Arwen they were only happily together for about 6 months before his passing since time runs differently for the elves.
Great essay gng, love LotR so much, I'm still more of a casual Tolkien fan, read the LotR only once but I always watch the movies at least once every year. This kind of stuff is very interesting to learn thank you
Luke of the Greatest Dunmer House - thank you! 🥰 Glad you enjoyed it! I wouldn't be a Tolkien fan without the Jackson films! I read the books in anticipation of the movies coming out and then hyperfixation kicked in. 😊 Also - You did God's work with the MJ Meme soundset. Hope he comes back soon!
You always provide such refreshing perspectives to the already vast Tolkien narratives. There are endless ways to interpret this world, it seems. Thank you for your work, always a delight to see a new post from one of my favorite Tolkien UA-camrs :)
@@GirlNextGondor Definitely! I have binged all of your videos recently and they are simply captivating. So much depth of thought, interesting topic choices in general, and just enough humor too. Thank you for your content, I will definitely stay tuned for more.
@@GirlNextGondor I was just goofin'. Your content is academic quality. I think I only commented because those sorts of verbal typos never happen in your vids. lol (edit) actually, after re-listening, I'm pretty sure that was all me. lol Wel Thx for the fun and the work. Enjoy.
Kind of like Elrond’s handling of Aragorn’s crush on Arwen coz he is the one who actually walked the path n sees the consequences of the choice. He is being realistic as I can’t imagine Arwen as a chieftain wife manning only a small settlement n the luxury of Imladris lost to her. He knew marriage is not just love or lust for men n Aragorn securing a life of comfort would only be good for him and his daughter. Movie Elrond didn’t do justice to the character. Wonder how he and the lords and ladies would be when they arrive to the undying land. Like they would be bumped down several level of authority for sure. Plus will most of the elves and deities there truly understand them? Maybe that’s why Galadriel chose to match her granddaughter with Aragorn coz life in “paradise” might not be as good as it seems. It’s to me a large retirement resort than what the Numenoreans imagine it is. ‘Better live like a blast than slowly dwindling into the end of the world, granddaughter!”😊😊
We know they didn't sail with Elrond but Tolkien left their fate a mystery. I would assume Elrond would have SOME contact with his folks, but I do wonder how much time Earendil gets to spend with his wife between voyages. Not sure you can take a day off from being the Evening Star.
It's funny. They are literally angels that serve the "One Above All," Eru and their creations have direct contact with these makers of all creation, yet both elves and men still fret 😢 about the plans of Eru and "the doom" of man. You'd think their faith would be far greater than what is portrayed. (Especially by such an obviously religious man as Tolkien)
I think part of it could be that the Valar themselves don't understand very much about the fate of Men especially, and what they do know they either can't convey properly or don't think it right to share. Tolkien seems to have known from his own experience that faith was often most necessary in the moments that the heart and mind were experiencing fear and grief.
So why human females did not flock in relationship with elvish males? They were all good warriors, usually with some marketable skills, such as smithing and calm demeanor. Additionally, kids would get extended lifespan and very good dexterity and looks. So in 40-50 years that elf produces with her bunch of kids, teach them some trade and when she passes away after some 50 odd years, leaves behind as patriarch of fluoridhing village. So she had successfull life and for him it was just interlude in long life.
I don’t want to in any way detract from Arwen’s very palpable grief in the narrative, but I think people lose sight of Tolkien’s Eschatology for humans in the world he created. When a human dies, their thinking, feeling spirit, their Soul if you will goes to Mandos for a period of reflection, and when that time is done, the soul moves on and leaves the circles of the world for an unknown fate. When Aragorn says on his deathbed that beyond is “more than a memory”, he shows wisdom in trusting that Iluvatar’s ultimate purpose for humans after death is a benevolent one, and that having chosen mortality, Arwen and Aragorn will share that fate. The end of the story is hopeful, not despairing.
Peter Jackson's film timeline is a bit confusing. Aragorn tells Eowyn that he is 87 years old (in the book, he would have been 88). But is this before or after his birthday of 1 March? When the hobbits first encountered Aragorn in Bree, was he 86 or 87? I know the book answer (87) but what about the films?
Tuor and Idril have first place in my heart, for many reasons; I find Andreth and Aegnor the most gutwrenching and Aragorn and Arwen the most impressive for how Tolkien follows it ruthlessly to its logical ends. Of the paramours themselves I probably have most sympathy for poor benighted bewildered Beren 💚
Was Arwen's death closer to Míriel's (Fëanor's mother) OR Rían's (Tuor's mother)? Míriel's fëa "escaped" her hröa. That could have been what happened to Arwen IF she died as an Elf. Rían basically killed herself by lying on a mound of corpses, Haudh-en-Nirnaeth. Unless she purposely impaled herself with a sword on the mound, it probably took days for her to die. The same could be said of Arwen, IF she died as a mortal. So, did Arwen really die as an Elf or a woman? What say you?🤨
Well, there may indeed be a 3rd option here, because Aragorn (like some of his Numenorean ancestors) is given the grace to lie down and relinquish his life when he deems it's time, *before* his body gives out (though it would have quickly started decaying if he had prolonged things). There seems to have been an element of choice in this, *similarly* to Miriel, but Aragorn certainly died the death of Men. I would imagine Arwen would be able to do the same thing.
@@GirlNextGondor I have a sneaking suspicion that despite Tolkien clearly telling us that Arwen chose to have a life as a woman, she actually died as an Elf and is in Mandos refusing to be reembodied unless she can be with Elessar. Namo couldn't grant that but has promised to keep it a secret. Therefore even Tolkien didn't know.🤪
I thought there WOULD be a source, but though it's said he did eventually sail, it seems the exact date is unknown. I guess based on Arwen's comments about there not being any boat to bear her, plus Legolas apparently needing to build his own boat later that year, it seems LIKELY that Cirdan had left on the Last Ship by that point -- though interesting to imagine that as Arwen is grieving alone in Lorien, Cirdan (and her grandfather, who also departed late but at an unknown date) might still have been preserving some faint Elven presence up north.
I think the argument is that Elvish longevity is not inherently better or worse than mortal death... they both involve trade offs. That said, we're it not for Aragorn's apparent care in spelling out the consequences of her choice to Arwen before they were engaged, I'd probably be more skeptical of his motives.
I don't know which number it might be but there has to be a tragic love story involving Gimli, Legolas, Galadriel, and Celeborn, right? Galadriel is the most powerful Noldor left in the Third Age and Gimli falls hard for her. At which point he requests and receives three of her hairs; he does this right in front of her husband, mind you. Gimli then becomes the only Dwarf to be allowed to travel to Valinor and it is, supposedly, due to his attachment to Legolas. Legolas is rad but he is a pretty minor Sindarin. Does he have that much pull? It seems unlikely. However, Galadriel definitely has the influence to bring her swarthy suitor over. Galadriel and Gimli have an affair, which is obvious to everyone. Thus is discord sown in Valinor. Legolas feels like a third wheel and Galadriel's husband goes to Aule for redress, saying one of your Children is making a fool of me; my name is Celeborn, but I wasn't Celeborn-yesterday.
"It is only then that she accepts the gift of men, forsaking the hollow promises of the world, leaving it behind to go seeking Estel."
That's so well written! Ugh, my heart! Beautiful work as always
I cannot help but draw comparison to Arwen's evident heartbreak at Aragorn's passing, and the hints of Tolkien's own grief at the passing of Edith in his last years.
“Hijinks ensue”, is one of the pithiest encapsulations of the entire LotR that I’ve ever heard.
Hehe, the whole entire War of the Ring: Hijinks
But it's funny, so she gets a pass.
Hijinks: The War of the Rings from a Hobbit's perspective
After almost 40 years of 'betrothal' I think I'm justified in claiming that, as far as Arwen and Aragorn were concerned, this Business With the Hobbits took place over such a short span that it must have boiled down to: hijinks.
Plus, lest we forget, Pippin was involved.
@@GirlNextGondor
As Pippin's attorney, I shall see you in court.🤪
Aragorn: Holy crap I thought you were Luthien
Arwen: Yeah I get that a lot.
Please don't blaspheme for it disrespects God, He always loves you unconditionally and waits for you to come back to Him, please repent
May our good God bless you and your loved ones, have a nice day
Psalm 23 John 3:16
Let's also point out, when Elrond set the bar for Aragorn to become King of Gondor and Arnor, he set him a task that was reasonable, if not his destiny. Much more so than retrieving an impossible treasure.
Yes and Elrond very much prepared him for this task until adulthood and supported him. Unlike in the films - Aragorn and Elrond were both keen as mustard for him to become King. Elrond's concern is for his daughter as he knew the heartbreak and grief it would cause her and no parent would want their child to experience that. He also knew this was happening in a time when Elves were leaving Middle Earth, and knew that come Aragorns death there would be few if any of her Elven kin to support her and also won't be able to go to Valinor. If I was Elrond and I had raised Aragorn and due to my foresight knew this was needed if evil was to be defeated and all was going well - planning my retirement to Valinor - then Aragorn throws a massive curve ball and wants to marry my only daughter, i would be like, oh ffs ..
Not to mention beneficial to society at large, unlike the Ruin of Doriath Thingol brought about
He also has the gift of foresight, which I don’t believe Thingol did, not in the sense that he knew Beren could actually get a silmaril.
@@letstalkherps4937 Thingol specifically meant for the task to be impossible - specifically telling Melian if there was any chance Beren would come back alive to Menegroth, Thingol would have slain/imprisoned Beren, to Mandos with his oath to Luthien! So yes, definitely didn't have foresight on that occasion...
I'm not even sure it can be described as "set him a task". It felt more like, "no, boy, do NOT get distracted, and to make sure you're not distracted, I'm going to link your two goals so that they're one and the same".
You do have a way with words. Galadriel 'unleashing' Aragorn on Arwen had me chuckling. I could just picture the White Lady giving a gentle push on the back of a reluctant Strider.
Yeah, I think about that every time I reread that part. Sometimes "elf magic" isn't all that subtle.
Lexi is the master of unexpected quips. 😂
You know how it is, Grandmas love to feed their grandchildren, and that is a whole lotta beef so....
@@louisvictor3473 Galadriel lost one of her brothers to unconsummated mortal love, she would not like to have another of her kin confined to Mandos for ever for nothing in return...
Finrod: this is a terrible idea and I am sending you back to the front before you can involve our House in further Doom.
Galadriel: DO IT DO IT DO IT --
The entire plot of LotR reduced to a two-word summary, as a mere footnote to the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: "hijinks ensue". Priceless.
Lexi excels at the skillful economy of words.😁
Of the various adjectives, complimentary and otherwise, I've accrued over the years... 'economical' has never been one 🤣🤣
Though I do find it funny that, from Aragorn's perspective, the War of the Ring was the climactic, but *brief*, end of his 5-decade quest to secure himself an Elfmaid.
@@GirlNextGondor
Indeed! It was in fact "hijinks." Case closed!
Arwen definitely made the right call, she gets to take part in the 2nd music with her love/36th degree cousin for eternity!
Weren't they first cousins 67 times removed?
Ugh, “rather in ignorance than in courage is it made.”
As a young widow this is so true. You make these big pledges of forever love and you know intellectually that the best case scenario is that you stay together until one of you dies. Because death is what separates you when nothing else can. Then it happens and you only get to know in retrospect how immense the agreement you made was. Being the one left behind sucks.
I am really happy in love a decade later, but going into it with open eyes, *knowing* what the cost is, is the single bravest thing I’ve ever done. Nothing hurts like that but I can confirm it’s worth it.
It sounds like you are in a good place now. God bless you and sustain your love for decades to come.🙏💖
Same here. I loved her to the end. With her last strength she reached up and caressed my cheek. A bittersweet and cherished memory. My wife now is very different and I love her just as much. My first wife's name, and the name of her deceased fiance are held in high honor in our house. It is a beautiful thing that neither of us are jealous of a memory, and it is one of the things that brings us so close together with a pure love. I would prefer to die before she does out of selfishness, but that is not a choice any of us can nobly make. God bless you!
Thank you for this perspective. An excellent reminder that it's not just magical immortal Elves in fantasy books who face these situations.
It is not forever love if you find someone else it is?
@adriangutierrez441 To love someone is to want the highest good for that person. You can argue about what the highest good is, for me it is doing everything to get that person into heavenly glory. I believe that my first wife did attain that. Therefore, my love for her was completed. It could go no further. Our covenant of marriage ended with her death. I was free to seek a new spouse as per her dying wishes. But I was not free to forget her and move on, as some people put it, nor would I want to. I was free to begin the next phase of my life, a life that has been utterly changed by her. Her name is held in high honor in our house. We are not jealous of memories, nor do we long for days that we can never have again. We live in the here and the now, understanding that an integral part of our marriage covenant is to get each other to heaven, that is, to facilitate each other's journey to holiness and to never be a stumbling block to the other. All this may sound strange to some, but that is the true meaning of love and marriage. I know that is what Tolkien wrote about, or at least had in mind, because he and I both come from the same philosophical and theological source. Happy Easter and God bless you!
“Cleans Aragorn up a bit and unleashes him on her granddaughter”
I love your phrasing in your videos.
Really expected a more downbeat ending with that thumbnail, but your final comments about the significance of her dying in a faded Lorien was a happy (bittersweet?) way to think of it that I’d never thought of.
I love how in the background of all that's happening with the Ring and the possible end of the world, Elrond also has to deal with the Arwen/Aragorn soap opera for like decades. Also Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth is a must read, it is emotionally powerful and explores the essential relationship between men, elves, Melkor and Eru. Also, also, Finrod is the best.
My father in law suddenly seems very reasonable
Arwen made the right call in ways she did not understand. As an elf, her fate would be the Halls of Mandos, and then life in Valinor until the end of Arda. As a human, her fate was the Halls of Mandos and then to dwell eternally with Eru Illuvitar. The elves were confined to the circles of the world. Men were not. Good choice, Arwen!?
In the end, she finally understands, and goes seeking Estel, to be reunited in the new Arda
I've never thought about the meaning of Arwen being referred to as Evenstar. She presides over the dawn of men, but from the perspective of Middle Earth she is one of the last elven stars presiding over the world. Barring whatever Moriquendi decided to remain and fade. I wonder what conversations she might have had with these elves in her last years. I imagine such conversations would be like a reprisal of the conversation of Aegnor and Andreth.
"...descend like a doom long foreseen upon the like button"
Oh man, these are always so good 😄
I tend to think that letting your fear of losing a good thing prevent you from ever having it is no way to live, and certainly not to live forever.
Of course I am entirely too mortal to really relate to an immortal's fear of inevitable death for the first time, but I can still safely say I think she made the right choice.
Well, she literally chose to die even if she had a perfectly realistic possibility not to do so... that’s something which, by definition, no human being could ever comprehend. I personally find her impact with human bitter reality quite wonderful... may sound silly, but it reminds me of Jesus saying to God “if possible, let this cup pass from me”. That impact with reality sure is difficult to bear... we’re humans, we’re used to it since birth: understanding that this might not be the case for someone who wasn’t doomed to this fate is a high point of Tolkien.
Aragorn/Arwen being not as close of a parallel to Beren/Luthien that people make it out to be is SO TRUE. The circumstances of their relationship and eventual death are pretty different beyond surface level comparisons.
Have you heard of the headcanon that in-universe, their story is heavily compared to Beren and Luthien as a way for the people of Gondor to accept Arwen as an "outsider" queen? Basically using what would be legend (to Gondorians) to justify an elven marriage.
I have not but that's an excellent explanation. Even in the Tale, there' a sense of resignation when Aragorn mistakes Arwen for Luthien. "Oh how original, trying to flatter me by comparing me to my own dead great great grandmother 😒" I like the idea that she gets to weaponize a story she's lived in the shadow of for so long!
Excellent analysis! You raised so many good points about Arwen’s motivations. It also reminds me a bit of Thingol and Melion and how she split from Doriath after his death.
True, but in the case of Thingol and Melian, they meet again in the Undying Lands.💖
I'm not going to lie Lexi, you broke me to tears that stayed in my eyes hroughout the last 5 minutes of this. Thank you for this video about love and yet another contemplative piece on the inevitable fate of man
I mean, I don't set out to hurt people with these, but it's comforting to know I wasn't the only one getting emotional about Arwen's fate!
@@GirlNextGondor haha it's fine 😅 Mortality, aging and inevitable death and subsequent temporal oblivion have been on my mind a lot for the past few months due to the twilingt years of close family members quickly progressing, but the way you handle these themes from Tolkien's texts is quite comforting and it does wonders to soothe those anxieties. Your last line ending in "leaving [the world] behind to go seeking Estel" *really* got me.
I always appreciated this somewhat tragic but pure romance, even as a kid when I first read LotR.
I never understood why they were so much compared to Beren and Luthien, except the physical resemblance. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. 😅
The way he wrote the last part about Arwen though, it's very interesting. At first read you're tempted to judge her, just leaving and wondering the world. Especially given how their whole story is, you'd expect her to become the dowager queen behind the throne, she was still "full of life" and "had responsibilities". It was only in later reads that i understood her. And why she died in Lorien, what that place going through a regular winter meant to her. I remember when i first read that part i thought "why didn't she just go meet with Legolas and Gimli, or look for the avari or smth?! Why go to a place you know is empty and full of death?!" Like with many other things in Tolkien, it takes a bit of thought and attention to the text to get the real meaning. And even so i still can't help but wish she'd done something with herself afterwards. Lol! Longing for a happy ending i suppose... Plus the knowledge that as a human you have to move on. I've often wondered what it would be like if you could just decide to go to sleep one day and never wake up. I wonder how it would be to know you always have that choice, and it's "the norm". And it amazes me that you have that in Tolkien, who was such a staunch catholic.
I started hearing Queen's "Who Wants To Live Forever?" playing my head while you were speaking. Such a beautiful song (and it fits this rather well).
There's a good reason that appendix was left in even editions of LOTR where most of the others were omitted, although I don't remember if the account of Númenor and its downfall was included (which provides important context for obvious reasons).
Yes. In Appendix A - "Annals of the Kings and Rulers - Numenorean Kings", there is a breakdown of the Kings of Numenor and a concise version of the Downfall.
Sort of like the Book of Wisdom in Catholic/Orthodox Bibles (and the rest of the second part of the canon set out first in the Synod of Rome (382 A.D ) that comments on all the rest of the text and helps you see a new Way of interpretation encountered again in Perfection on the way to Emmaus.
Thanks Lexi! Glad it finally rendered correctly! 😅
Me too! 😅
Ah, I refreshed yt like 50 times today, waiting for Your video ❤
A long-expected Aragorn-and-Arwen vid!
Love for a mortal is very different than for elves. We live all our days in the shadow of death, knowing that we will one day lose everyone and thereafter will never in life see them again. Elves do not; Arwen had known her family for nearly three thousand years, and if she had departed with them would have kept them until the end of days. It's perhaps understandable that she did not comprehend the price of her choice until the account came due.
Galadriel intentionally matched Arwen & Aragorn together while both visited Lothlorien! A&A met in Rivendell, & that is where Aragorn fell in love with her, she didn’t feel the same at the time.
Aragorn’s mother Gilraen warned him that he was aiming too high, and Elrond was not happy about it either, and Aragorn took heed of this and left Rivendell, to learn how to be a Ranger and to oppose Sauron’s forces.
Many years later, he came to Lothlorien, seeking rest and shelter, and Galadriel allowed him to enter. We have this line in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen:
‘But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.’ LOTR Appendices.
To me, that makes it rather explicit that Galadriel wanted Aragorn to appear at his best. Why? Who could he possibly impress in Lothlorien, except for Galadriel’s grand-daughter? I think it is quite clear that she wanted them matched, and perhaps her foresight told her that they needed to be matched, as it was part of destiny, to begin the Dominion of Men (something Elrond probably also realised, but couldn’t willingly promote, since it would mean Arwen and Elrond would be parted forever).
Plus there is the scene in Lorien, where Galadriel gives Aragorn the Elessar, which went from Galadriel to Celebrian to Arwen and then back to Galadriel in order that she give it as a gift to Aragorn. Again it speaks to me as a collaborative act, and part of Galadriel helping bring the two together:
And Aragorn answered: “Lady, you know all my desire, and long held in keeping the only treasure that I seek. Yet it is not yours to give me, even if you would; and only through darkness shall I come to it.”
“Yet maybe this will lighten your heart,' said Galadriel; for it was left in my care to be given to you, should you pass through this land.” Then she lifted from her lap a great stone of a clear green, set in a silver brooch that was wrought in the likeness of an eagle with outspread wings; and as she held it up the gem flashed like the sun shining through the leaves of spring.
“This stone I gave to Celebrían my daughter, and she to hers; and now it comes to you as a token of hope. In this hour take the name that was foretold for you, Elessar, the Elfstone of the house of Elendil!” From LOTR FOTR BOOK
I have to report to you what I thought about Aragorn and Arwen the first time I read LOTR in high school.
If I knew that marrying my girlfriend would mean that my love's lifespan would be GREATLY reduced, I would leave her without a second look.
THAT is what real love means.
And if she really wanted to marry you anyway? Because Arwen knew that and chose to be with Aragorn.
With that line of thinking, you must think that Elrond was a horrible father for letting his immortal daughter become a mortal wife. If he really loved her, he would have brought her to the Undying Lands before Aragorn had a chance to become King, right?🙄
Quel choix déchirant... Cependant le seul qui ait un sens...
For me, the tragedy of Arwen is that she learned jack shit from all those generations of her distant kin being fostered in her father's home. She hadn't lost everything with Aragorn's death. She had children. Would have grandchildren. All those generations and she never learned how to deal with the loss of a spouse by taking comfort and joy in the children and grandchildren. If Men had been as hopeless as Arwen, the race wouldn't have made it if every time a spouse died, the other spouse just gave up and soon just laid down and died.
I hear that! I think it is a little complicated, though, by the difference between Aragorn laying down his life voluntarily after 120 years of rule, because he knows his time is done and his son is ready to be king, and the usual 'involuntary' death that can't be predicted, and that might well require a surviving spouse to continue to guide the family. Arwen's temptation seems to have been to *stay* with the kids, and grandkids, and greatgrandkids, longer than was needed.
Now Luthien, and Melian, on the other hand... !
@@GirlNextGondorPretty sure that Arwen had zero temptation to stay with her children considering she immediately left them and never went back.
Tolkien's cyclical storytelling is present throughout the works. Therefore, it is natural to see parallels in the story of Aragorn and Arwen from the stories of other couples. I think that the reason why Aragorn was raised by Elrond like a son was due to the fact that Elrond (with his brother Elros) was raised by Maglor.
A great and realistic look at this love story! Do you believe that Arwen's soul left Arda (to places unknown to all but Eru) as did Aragorn's soul? Were they reunited in this place unknown?
Only Mandos and Eru know where they went.
While I understand inserting the romance as a subplot in the movies, I do not believe it was handled well. It resulted in misleading views of multiple characters although at least the Arwen at Helm's Deep scenes were cut. Having Arwen seemingly start dying was just one of those things that made me go 'huh?' And Elrond's hostility towards their relationship and towards Men in general was completely out of character for someone who was the best Elven friend Men ever had. While Elrond knew that her deciding to stay in Middle-Earth with Aragorn would cause him much grief, he was wise enough not to stand in its way beyond insisting there be a future for her in Middle-Earth. He did not want her to end up as a slave of Sauron or to meet some other horrible fate. And don't even get me started on the whole 'Aragorn walking away from being king' from the first part of the movies.
I have wondered how long Arwen would have lived had her grief over the loss of Aragorn not overwhelmed her. She certainly hadn't aged right along with Aragorn. Would she have eventually aged and died like a mortal, perhaps after a few more centuries like Elros?
Elros sounds like a good guess to me. That would have Arwen living for 500 years. 😮 Maybe Eldarion lived 4-500 years. 🤔
@@Enerdhil I forget exactly where this was written but I believe Eldarion lived about as long as Aragorn and after that the life expectancy of his line declined.
@@istari0
That sounds like Nature of Middle Earth stuff. Tolkien's "bad math."🙄
I guess that would mean Arwen died of natural causes.😂
God bless you and your work young lady next Gondor 💙💙💙 I love your work and passionate narration 😇😇😇 love from Croatia 💜
Wonderful. I just finished the database work I had to do, and now a video from my favourite UA-camr.
Cheers 😀
Perfect timing! 👏👏👏
Now I know how Arwen felt.. our Rogue Hotpocket has left us
Forsaken for all eternity 😢
At the least, we can establish that Arwen was way more lucky with her clinging child admirer than Queen Padme!
This series was beautiful, thank you so much. Just binged it. You always talk about the stories of Middle-earth in new ways that I'd never seen or thought of before, but seem so clear and vital in retrospect.
Great overview Lexi. It is true in hindsight as a reader of the LOTRs we don’t get much context to their relationship
I'm convinced there is an origin for the Aragorn and Arwen story in Scottish traditions recorded in "Popular Rhymes of Scotland" by Robert Chambers, 1868. In their edition of "On Fairy-stories" Verlyn Flieger and Douglas Anderson list this as a work consulted by Tolkien. In the section about Thomas the Rhymer (True Thomas, the figure in the ballad) one of Thomas's prophecies is given as
When Dee and Don shall run in one,
And Tweed shall run in Tay,
The bonnie water o' Urie
Shall bear the Bass away.
The Bass is a conical mount, of remarkable appearance, and about forty feet high, rising from the bank of the Urie, in the angle formed by it at its junction with the Don.
Alert, alert! Tolkien loved himself a river-angle. There are about four in his writings, notably the angle of the Hoarwell and Loudwater in Eriador and (more to the point) the angle of Celebrant and Anduin.
The Bass mound therefore answers to Cerin Amroth. A fact not mentioned in Chambers is that it lies within the churchyard, that is graveyard, of the church of Inverurie, Aberdeenshire -- and that here is the grave of one Marjorie Elphinstone, dating from the 17th century. According to legend, Marjorie was thought to have died, and was buried in her wedding finery, including rings on her fingers. That night the sexton dug her up, and was about to cut off one of her fingers, meaning to steal a ring. Upon which the poor woman ran home in her wedding gown and bare feet. She lived out her life, died, and was buried again, so is said to have been "twice buried".
"And there is her green grave, until the world is changed"
Hijinks. Wonderfully funny. You have a good grasp on this story. I feel like the professor felt his Edith was indeed far above him, and with his Catholic reverence for Mary, he probably sees in general women’s as being above us men. Fair enough we can be rough creatures. One thing though, Arwen chooses the gift of men, meaning she unlike her kin will live beyond Arda, a tough choice still to make but a different choice. I love the differences in the romances in the legendarily, though all have great similarities. Thanks GNG.
Lexi this is your usual great job. Thank you
I wonder now if Elrond was in any way bitter that he never got to meet his 4 grandchildren by Arwen and Aragorn. Eldarion was born the year after his parents wedding/coronation but the girls had to be born around the time he took the journey West and after. And I wonder also if he was annoyed his sons never settled down; if, perchance, they arrived in Valinor to find their father being oddly treated as a doted upon youth flanked by his wife, grandma Idril, grandpap Tuor, his mother briefly between dusk and dawn before assuming her swan form to see his father, and Nerdanel who's just happy to have company that isn't her statues anymore and was all "Well, look what the hounds of Orome dropped in. Still single I see, what kept you so long? No paramours obviously.'
Nice narrative.😁👍
"GIVE ME (immortal, non-doomed) GREAT-GRANDCHILDREN." - Nerdanel, to Elladan and/ Elrohir, most likely
@@GirlNextGondor
Why Nerdanel? Are the Fëanorians somehow connected to Elrond and his sons?
@@EnerdhilFëanor is the father of Fingolfin, Fingolfin is an ancestor of Elrond. And the ancestor of many Including Aragorn,who is pretty much related to all the important Eldar and Edain.
@@c.antoniojohnson7114
Finwë is the father of Fingolfin. Fëanor is his brother.
An end comes to all things, but Arwen's life had in one sense been of continuation, even though she knew she was the evenstar of her people and the fading of the elves was happening. But she had already lived a long elven life when she met Aragorn, and living with Galadriel in Lorien had reinforced her perception of reality as being a continuation despite what she knew intellectually. So she knew that her time with Elessar would come to an end some day, but as long as it remained distant the knowledge didn't have the same impact on her as it did when his death finally arrived. Indeed, even during her years with Elessar she still considered the frailties of men with some contempt, and it was only when it was impacting her with relationship with Elessar coming to an end that she finally understood somewhat better what it meant to be mortal and the bitterness of loss. She had already lost her father and would never see him, her mother and possibly her brothers [assuming they eventually went to the West] again. Love and relationships come to an end, and the two paths, to love another or be alone [as in my case], both end. The first with the grief and pain of loss, the second with loneliness. Arwen discovered the pain of love that becomes lost and was unwilling to let go. Nothing could have prepared her for what it would be like to experience it, as the loss of parents can be thought about for years before, yet be of no help when the grief of such events actually happen.
Very interesting as usual! Thanks for sharing 😊
I really enjoy your in-depth insight. Great video.
Descend like a doom long forseen upon the like button??? No! I shall shotgun my way to it like button like how you shotgunned through the events of LotR in your summary by simply saying "Hijinks Ensue"!
Better than 💩 happens.🤪
Heartbreaking and beautiful, well done!
I'd just like to point out that the material recounted in this video is one of the four major planks in my "Elu Thingol is the actual worst" thesis. For the curious, the other three are: 1. he's a _huge_ anti-human racist, a trait which appears at its worst not even _here,_ but in the outrageous "condition" he set Haleth for living in Brethil, and her reply to him let him off _light;_ 2. you sent two guys to the Nirnaeth, dude? I get that you hate the Feanorians, but really? two guys? _TWO_ guys. f**k you; and 3. how dumb, as well as arrogant, can you possibly be, that you insult a room full of armed Dwarves while you are in it _alone?_
Elu Thingol had ONE redeeming point ..........Melian.🥰
Make it five major planks: the fifth is, we literally have to resort to _another character_ to be able to say nice things about him
@@Enerdhil (you're right though, Melian absolutely whips)
@@gabrielblanchard3921
People! Luthien overshadows her Daddy, too 😂
Powerful narrative, the final one chronologically, of Middle Earth, the last spark of Elvendom flicker ind dying. The only possible hope is that Arwen's spirit met that of Aragorn beyond the Circles of the World, which is a matter of faith as with Beren and Luthien. Arwen didn't get to "sing sorrowless" together with Aragorn, though. 💔 And the Appendix carries on with the history of Rohan --- how bleak...
Technically speaking … what would happen to Arwen if they just had a divorce a couple of years later? You know, he turns out to be all about the work and she turns out to be snoring like a windmill … “It just didn’t work out”
elves do not believe in divorce... The mere concept is incomprehensible to them. If they grow estranged, they just separate and live apart and call it a day, they only remarry if their spouse is refusing or is forbidden to leave Mandos... and there was only one such case ever reported...
I'm always excited to see a new upload from you, and this one provoked many thoughts as well as some tears. Extremely well argued and articulated. Thank you!
How did Legolas and Gimli 'get around' the technicality of Cirdan no longer being there to build them a ship?
In the last entry of the Tale of Years, it says that _"Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea."_ Cirdan himself may still have been in Middle-earth at any rate, but since Elves had gone overseas from at least one other haven besides Lindon's, his personal presence and handiwork seems never to have been strictly essential.
Great video. Apropos of nothing really, you reminded me that that "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" has one of my least loved bits of Tolkien writing in it, Arwen's line: "Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers," after Aragorn first encounters her and calls her Tinuviel. Sure, Arwen was no doubt experiencing some of the foresight of her bloodline, but what a thing for a person to say, lol!
Of course that also reminds me of one of my favorite bits of Tolkien writing:
"But I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."
Relatable!
That whole first conversation seethes with the painful awkwardness of failed flirtation 🤣 the degree to which this was intentional on Tolkien's part, is matter for debate
@@GirlNextGondorHaha, you're so right, awkward YA Romance genre is a fun prism to look at it through!
I've always wondered what was the length of time period between Aragorns death and Arwens? The text appears to make it sound like it was not a very long time but it's also vague. Arwen had a son and at least two daughters that we know of, so did she spend years with them that must have been some comfort to her? Plus grandchildren, I wonder if they were quite old themselves when she left or they were still young adults? How did they feel about their mother choosing to leave, wonder if they felt abandoned? Also her brothers Elladan and Elrohir, if we go by the text in LOTR which states specifically that they stayed behind and also that grandpa Celeborn went to say with them for a a time, so I wonder if they were still around, I would imagine so. Also I've always assumed Arwen left the circles of the world as do all humans - so at least we can hope she reunited with Aragorn in wherever it is they go. *Edit - it was a year after Aragorns death, so that does leave the question of her children being alive and her two brothers and any children they had - must have been hard for them.
I can't imagine life without my wife, so I kind of get why Arwen did what she did.😢
Arwen left right away for Lothlorien where she wandered aimlessly for about a year among dying mallorn trees before she died. As she was married to Aragorn for 120 years even given the Numeneorean aging rate Eldarion was already quite old, and his sisters for sure grandmothers if not great-grandmothers already.
@@Chociewitka
I would guess that Eldarion ruled for 100 years. As for his sisters, they probably lived longer.
Did Eldarion go the rest of his life without a woman, or did he become Solomon?
Did his sisters remarry and have kids after their husbands died? If so they must have a lot of kids who grew up and had a lot of kids, etc. At the time of each person's death, there must have been hundreds of people who could trace their blood line to Elessar and Arwen.🤔
Personally, I would think that Tolkien would give the line Elros the Lobito of an Elf, so very few children and ONE wife/husband.
If Eladrion had married even in his actual 40s - as Aragorn's only heir he had to marry relatively "early" - his wife having to be at least 20 years old at the time - so then she would be around 100 years old when Eldarion ascended the throne, and his children around 80-60 year old, so Eldarion must have had some grandchildren in their 30-40s... Those then would been Arwen's great-grandchildren. There is still the possibility of even one additional younger generation being there already.
@@Chociewitka
Anyway, the Royal Family was huge.
Elrond was a much better father-in-law than Thingol
I think it's a tie/draw.
I am struggling not to say 'he learned everything he knew about fostering waifs from the best' 😅
@@GirlNextGondor Your restraint does you credit, Feanorean.
Sorry I'm so late! Settling down to watch now.
Because I find the deepest despair an individual experiences to be directly related to the height of their joy, yeah … I think Arwen made the right choice ❤️🔥
5:15 The Lord of the Rings By JRR Tolkien:
TLDR: Hijinks ensue…😂
It's better than 💩 happens.🤪
'Why are you booing me, I'm right!' 🤣
@@GirlNextGondor
You are too funny.😂 You should try stand-up comedy. I think you'd be good at it. You might be like a female Dennis Miller.😅
Is that Tommy Lee Jones as Aragorn?
You'd have to ask the artist 😆
Aragorn and the Lady Lady. 😉
The noble maiden Noblemaiden 🤣
Arwen and her boy toy.
Great video!
Superb!
What a great video
One of your best. Thank you.
Nice work thanks
Very interesting!
A sad, but wonderful video. Incidentally, you should be complimented on the smoothness of your narration delivery.👍
about embodied elves, there's a missing thread on the tolkien stories, if they tend to be reborn then there should be some continuation to some dramas, like the ones of feanor. there should be a story were amrod comes back to middle earth after many ages.
Wonderful job as usual!
Thank you so much 😊
I feel like it would be interesting to dive into all the Wisdom that Finrod managed to produce until his untimely departure coutesy of gigantic curced Chihuahua.
Galadriel: so Finrod, you're foresighted, right?
Finrod: that's so
G: so, then, you must have had some idea...
F: ...
G:...
F: ugh, yes, I KNEW ABOUT THE CHIHUAHUA and went to my death regardless, are you happy now?!?
Correction: Arwen had already accepted the gift of men and gave up her immortality long before she went back to Lothlorien now abandoned. I can't remember the exact time at the moment, but when Sauron was defeated and Aragorn made king, she saw that she truly had a future with Aragorn if she so chose. She already said she would cleave herself to him years prior, but she had not given up her immortality yet. It was only when a good future was set, did she then give it up. It was when she told Frodo that she gave up her place on the ship. She had chosen the fate of men, and now there was a spare spot on the ship that Frodo could take if he chooses.
Then on Aragorn's deathbed, Arwen reminds him that she had already given up her immortality and no ship would be able to bear her west.
Aragorn's and Arwen's story is even more tragic when you read how Tolkien set up the years of the elves compared to men. By doing the math, for Aragorn, they were happily married for years, but to Arwen they were only happily together for about 6 months before his passing since time runs differently for the elves.
Brilliant
Can you imagine a bigger curse than having your dad be on the top five wisest creatures on the continent? Arwen can't win.
Thanks!
Thank you!! ♥ So glad you enjoyed it.
Great essay gng, love LotR so much, I'm still more of a casual Tolkien fan, read the LotR only once but I always watch the movies at least once every year. This kind of stuff is very interesting to learn thank you
Luke of the Greatest Dunmer House - thank you! 🥰 Glad you enjoyed it! I wouldn't be a Tolkien fan without the Jackson films! I read the books in anticipation of the movies coming out and then hyperfixation kicked in. 😊
Also - You did God's work with the MJ Meme soundset. Hope he comes back soon!
You always provide such refreshing perspectives to the already vast Tolkien narratives. There are endless ways to interpret this world, it seems. Thank you for your work, always a delight to see a new post from one of my favorite Tolkien UA-camrs :)
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed it 😊
@@GirlNextGondor Definitely! I have binged all of your videos recently and they are simply captivating. So much depth of thought, interesting topic choices in general, and just enough humor too. Thank you for your content, I will definitely stay tuned for more.
4:03 Thingol of Rohan? lol Thx for another terrific episode, and with a blooper to boot.
THENGEL, I was trying to say THENGEL! 🤣🤣 gotta work on my enunciation! Though I do find the idea of Thingol in Rohan a delightful one....
@@GirlNextGondor I was just goofin'. Your content is academic quality. I think I only commented because those sorts of verbal typos never happen in your vids. lol (edit) actually, after re-listening, I'm pretty sure that was all me. lol Wel Thx for the fun and the work. Enjoy.
Kind of like Elrond’s handling of Aragorn’s crush on Arwen coz he is the one who actually walked the path n sees the consequences of the choice. He is being realistic as I can’t imagine Arwen as a chieftain wife manning only a small settlement n the luxury of Imladris lost to her. He knew marriage is not just love or lust for men n Aragorn securing a life of comfort would only be good for him and his daughter.
Movie Elrond didn’t do justice to the character.
Wonder how he and the lords and ladies would be when they arrive to the undying land. Like they would be bumped down several level of authority for sure. Plus will most of the elves and deities there truly understand them? Maybe that’s why Galadriel chose to match her granddaughter with Aragorn coz life in “paradise” might not be as good as it seems. It’s to me a large retirement resort than what the Numenoreans imagine it is. ‘Better live like a blast than slowly dwindling into the end of the world, granddaughter!”😊😊
I wonder if Elrond visited his parents after arriving in the Undying lands? Did his sons sail over sea or did they make arwens choice?
We know they didn't sail with Elrond but Tolkien left their fate a mystery.
I would assume Elrond would have SOME contact with his folks, but I do wonder how much time Earendil gets to spend with his wife between voyages. Not sure you can take a day off from being the Evening Star.
It's funny. They are literally angels
that serve the "One Above All," Eru and their creations have direct contact with these makers of all creation, yet both elves and men still fret 😢 about the plans of Eru and "the doom" of man. You'd think their faith would be far greater than what is portrayed. (Especially by such an obviously religious man as Tolkien)
I think part of it could be that the Valar themselves don't understand very much about the fate of Men especially, and what they do know they either can't convey properly or don't think it right to share. Tolkien seems to have known from his own experience that faith was often most necessary in the moments that the heart and mind were experiencing fear and grief.
@@GirlNextGondor his trauma from WW1 might be a reason for that perhaps.
"as recounted in the lord of the rings: hijinks ensue"
We recall 😂
Damn, Elrond cock-blocked Aragorn for 38 years.
Movies don’t have appendices, but at least as long as Blu-Ray discs last, they have bonus scenes.
High Jinx ensue 😂 I love it
So why human females did not flock in relationship with elvish males? They were all good warriors, usually with some marketable skills, such as smithing and calm demeanor. Additionally, kids would get extended lifespan and very good dexterity and looks. So in 40-50 years that elf produces with her bunch of kids, teach them some trade and when she passes away after some 50 odd years, leaves behind as patriarch of fluoridhing village. So she had successfull life and for him it was just interlude in long life.
I don’t want to in any way detract from Arwen’s very palpable grief in the narrative, but I think people lose sight of Tolkien’s Eschatology for humans in the world he created. When a human dies, their thinking, feeling spirit, their Soul if you will goes to Mandos for a period of reflection, and when that time is done, the soul moves on and leaves the circles of the world for an unknown fate. When Aragorn says on his deathbed that beyond is “more than a memory”, he shows wisdom in trusting that Iluvatar’s ultimate purpose for humans after death is a benevolent one, and that having chosen mortality, Arwen and Aragorn will share that fate. The end of the story is hopeful, not despairing.
Peter Jackson's film timeline is a bit confusing. Aragorn tells Eowyn that he is 87 years old (in the book, he would have been 88). But is this before or after his birthday of 1 March? When the hobbits first encountered Aragorn in Bree, was he 86 or 87? I know the book answer (87) but what about the films?
Did you really just describe LotR as "Hijinks Ensue"???
Not only did I really do it, based on the response, I may have to consider this the high point of my internet career 😅
Out of all 5 elf/human relationship, which one is your favorite? My personal favorite is Aegnor and Andreth
That's a morbid choice!😅
@@Enerdhilto be fair only Tuor and Idril avoided the most tragedy 😅 All have been pretty tragic
Tuor and Idril have first place in my heart, for many reasons; I find Andreth and Aegnor the most gutwrenching and Aragorn and Arwen the most impressive for how Tolkien follows it ruthlessly to its logical ends.
Of the paramours themselves I probably have most sympathy for poor benighted bewildered Beren 💚
@@Sipher71
That's true.😅 But we all love Tuor and Idril Celebrindal.💖
@@GirlNextGondor
Andreth and Aegnor get my vote for Best Tease Romance in the Legendarium.
Was Arwen's death closer to Míriel's (Fëanor's mother) OR Rían's (Tuor's mother)?
Míriel's fëa "escaped" her hröa. That could have been what happened to Arwen IF she died as an Elf.
Rían basically killed herself by lying on a mound of corpses, Haudh-en-Nirnaeth. Unless she purposely impaled herself with a sword on the mound, it probably took days for her to die. The same could be said of Arwen, IF she died as a mortal.
So, did Arwen really die as an Elf or a woman? What say you?🤨
Well, there may indeed be a 3rd option here, because Aragorn (like some of his Numenorean ancestors) is given the grace to lie down and relinquish his life when he deems it's time, *before* his body gives out (though it would have quickly started decaying if he had prolonged things). There seems to have been an element of choice in this, *similarly* to Miriel, but Aragorn certainly died the death of Men. I would imagine Arwen would be able to do the same thing.
@@GirlNextGondor
I have a sneaking suspicion that despite Tolkien clearly telling us that Arwen chose to have a life as a woman, she actually died as an Elf and is in Mandos refusing to be reembodied unless she can be with Elessar. Namo couldn't grant that but has promised to keep it a secret. Therefore even Tolkien didn't know.🤪
Or maybe Namo permitted Aragorn to stay in Mandos, so when Arwen came there, they were reunited.💕💖😘🥰😍
I'm late to the video drop due to international travel and Babe Not Waking Me Up
Tragedy?
You mentioned that Cirdan had already left Middle-earth before Arwen died. I am unaware of the source for this. Can you say where Tolkien said this?
I thought there WOULD be a source, but though it's said he did eventually sail, it seems the exact date is unknown. I guess based on Arwen's comments about there not being any boat to bear her, plus Legolas apparently needing to build his own boat later that year, it seems LIKELY that Cirdan had left on the Last Ship by that point -- though interesting to imagine that as Arwen is grieving alone in Lorien, Cirdan (and her grandfather, who also departed late but at an unknown date) might still have been preserving some faint Elven presence up north.
@@GirlNextGondor Would her grandfather with his grandsons' not com down to Lothlorien to hold her dying hand if they were not far?
Tinuviel, tinuviel...
Was not Aragorn being selfish? If I loved someone would I want her to abandon immortality to be with me for 5 mins?
I think the argument is that Elvish longevity is not inherently better or worse than mortal death... they both involve trade offs. That said, we're it not for Aragorn's apparent care in spelling out the consequences of her choice to Arwen before they were engaged, I'd probably be more skeptical of his motives.
I don't think Arwen needed Aragorn to spell out anything to her especially given her lineage.@@GirlNextGondor
❤
🎉
I don't know which number it might be but there has to be a tragic love story involving Gimli, Legolas, Galadriel, and Celeborn, right? Galadriel is the most powerful Noldor left in the Third Age and Gimli falls hard for her. At which point he requests and receives three of her hairs; he does this right in front of her husband, mind you. Gimli then becomes the only Dwarf to be allowed to travel to Valinor and it is, supposedly, due to his attachment to Legolas. Legolas is rad but he is a pretty minor Sindarin. Does he have that much pull? It seems unlikely. However, Galadriel definitely has the influence to bring her swarthy suitor over. Galadriel and Gimli have an affair, which is obvious to everyone. Thus is discord sown in Valinor. Legolas feels like a third wheel and Galadriel's husband goes to Aule for redress, saying one of your Children is making a fool of me; my name is Celeborn, but I wasn't Celeborn-yesterday.
How I love an extremely elaborate lead-up to a pun-chline. 🤣🤣
@@GirlNextGondor Thanks! and "pun-chline"? wonderful!