Beren: I want to marry your daughter. Thingol: Bring me a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth. Aragorn: I want to marry your daughter. Elrond: Become the High King of Gondor and Arnor. Tour: I want to marry your daughter. Turgon: I'm gonna start planning the wedding!
Rosie Cotton: I wanna marry your son. The Gaffer: Okay by me longsa' ya get 'im to stop wearin' all that ironmongery and pay proper respect to my tater patch!
Its interesting to note how many women would have done better. Idril of course, Thingol ignoring Melian's advice leads to his death, The Numenoreans pass over Silmarien for her brother, and she becomes the ancestor of the Faithful Lords of Andunie while her brother is the ancestor of the traitor kings, Pharazon's overthrow of Miriel ended.... poorly. Gondor's refusal to allow Ondoher's daughter Firiel to succeed caused the fall of Arnor. and the end of the line of kings. Its a bit of a theme. @@GirlNextGondor
I love these two. I believe that if there are two people in Arda capable of being sundered without it becoming a tragedy, it’s these two. I imagine Tuor slipping quietly away with a smile, holding his wife’s hand in the sure knowledge that they will meet again. That’s why the walk off the Silmarillion, closing the door quietly behind them while everybody else is watching the Third Kinslaying in horror. They are so sane, well adjusted and drama-free that they don’t belong in the Silmarillion, period.
"Idril became taciturn, and prophesied to Tuor that he would have to make a choice, and that the time was near. Her husband could not understand her, but obeyed her counsels." Always found this summarization from TG funny. How much misery would have been prevented if Feanor listened to Nerdanel, Thingol to Melian, or Aldarion to Erendis. Tolkien's message seems clear: Husbands, listen to your wives.
See, this is why Celeborn is called the Wise: when he's being a bit of an idiot to Gimli and Galadriel calls him out, he listens, acknowledges his fault, and makes good.
@@stnylanTHIS!! Like, SO MANY other Elves who could've reached his age didn't, and by the end of the 3rd Age and into the 4th, he was still going strong, and still with his hot wise wife. Dude won in the end.
When Tolkien says that Tuor is “counted among the Noldor”, I don’t necessarily think that means that he was granted bodily immortality (particularly since he was already weary when he and Idril set sail), rather that his spirit was granted release from the “seeking elsewhither” that afflicts mortal men and that he was allowed to remain tied to the circles of the world (presumably in Mandos, from whence he may or may not have been bodied forth again). This would mean that his and Idril’s fates would remain tied together for eternity, whatever might befall their fleshly envelopes.
There's a reason Maeglin's desire for Idril is all tangled up in his political ambition. She's a kingmaker 🥰 and Tuor is a feral-yet-wellspoken High Priest of the Sea. If anyone can simply opt out of mortality through sheer force of will, it's them.
The rate of uploads lately has been spectacular, and so is the content. I always felt like Tuor and Idril constituted a prototype for Beren and Luthien but that Tolkien's notorious philosophy of never discarding ANYTHING made him keep the Gondolin story around and try to work it into the Legendarium alongside what is essentially its newer, sexier reboot. That being said, the stories are obviously distinct enough to stand on their own. I always wondered if Eärendil staying in Tolkien's headcanon is what doomed Dior to irrelevance, because since the overarching plot was already set and Tolkien refused to change it, there wasn't really any room for a second half-elven savior figure, especially not earlier in the timeline. Like you I root for Tuor and Idril and hope their story had a relatively happy ending.
I do often wish that Dior and Elwing were not father and daughter but that one single half-elf child took both of their roles as the legacy and child of Beren and Luthien. Plus I heard theories that Dior, despite having immortal ancestry, was still considered a human which sucks because this man is part Ainu and deserves at least to stay in Aman. At the very least his battle against Feanor's ugly sons could've gone down a less tragic route
I have several thoughts about Tuor and Idril: Tuor is a foil of his cousin Turin first in looks with Tuor actually favoring the Men of Hador while Turin does not. Tuor is open about who he is and why he has come to the hidden Noldor stronghold built at the behest of Ulmo while Turin comes up with yet more edgy aliases. Tuor doesn't inadvertently sabotage the pretty blonde Elf princess' relationship with someone who was made prisoner in Angband but Gwindor had a rougher go of it than Maeglin and he still got partially eaten by Glaurung at Tumhalad before Turin fails to save anyone from the sack of Nargothrond and poor Finduilas got to pinned that tree. Also Gwindor isn't an incel.
Tuor and Idril are the right side of the bell curve, the A+ people. They also obey the promptings, or perhaps have the wisdom to follow the foresighted advice of Ulmo, President of the Children of Eru Fan Club. Ulmo wants Tuor to deliver a message? Tuor thanks Ulmo for the swag and heads to Gondolin. Idril gets, "a bad feeling about this," and talks it over with the emissary of Ulmo and then acts on what her heart knows will happen one day soon. Sometimes doing what you know to be right teams up with taking full advantage of the opportunities grated by fate or birth to make an extraordinary pair of lives. Cheers, by the way, to Ulmo, the only Vala who didn't leave Children alone in the Dark.
@Enerdhil Really? To me it's more like if Elon Musk wanted to dig a nuclear bunker in his backyard. Odd but not like he'd have trouble finding the resources. Idril also doesn't need permits as she is in more likely in charge of the permits. Low risk.
@@specialnewb9821 Actually, Elon Musk would likely NOT need his bunker to save his life, whereas Idril would end up needing the crazy long underground stairs that led to a tunnel that crossed under the ground between Tumladen and the Encircling Mountains. Of course, everyone knew what Noah was doing, so it is different that way, but Idril took Ulmo's words much more seriously than did her father or even her husband. She saved the lives of her people with that escape plan
Tuor and Idril are the best! They're partners, and take each other seriously and i always thought they were very practical. I loved them more then Beren & Luthien because they were so much more relatable and worked together from the start. I was happy to finally read a love story that wasn't so full of drama, with such a well balanced couple that maybe got a happy ending too! I mean i suppose Beren and Luthien also got a happy ending but somehow it didn't feel like it... Tuor and Idril felt better. I love the Silmarillion but a lot of the time it feels like a string of tragedies 😅
"a lot of the time it feels like a string of tragedies" Then you read the tales of the sons of Hurin and you realize what Tolkien's idea of a tragedy is. Yes, his default tone is beauty and loss, you even find it in the lightest tale, The Hobbit. Oh! For then day when all shall be renewed!
I love how I’m probably not the only one who stays up at night randomly thinking about these things😂 You literally articulate and theorize all of my wild and disconnected thoughts about the legendarium and random elven thinkings in a great videos 🙏🏻
@@GirlNextGondor When I was younger I only had Silmarillion, way before I bought History of Middle Earth, and Gondolin story was always untold for me or let's say very obscure. Now I have History of Middle Earth and The Fall of Gondilin and I can connect dots and from various versions of a tale create my own full version of The Fall of Gondolin and travels of Tuor.
Thanks for this awesome video! Tuor and Idril are also my favorite ME couple. I personaly believe that Tuor became an elf and he lives together with Idril in some nice quiet place in Aman. As you mentioned - he spent 99% of time with elves, so he is the best choice for a man turning in to an elf.
I think Tuor must have had a lot of great Elven husband role models. Mortal couples would find something to argue about, but Tuor and Idril never questioned one another. Tuor fully feserves to be an Elf on Aman.
My new favorite channel, your insights on Tolkien and the legendarium are unique and truly inspired. Can't wait to see the channel grow to the immense heights of which you are most certainly capable! Hoping for a live-streamed DtHH sometime soon!
I only recently heard the Fall of Gondolin story separate from the silm and the additional details of Tuor and Idril make me love them so much more. I like the concept of Human / Elf unlikely couples, but Tuor and Idril actually seem to be a real, solid couple, you sense their deep love and feel it to be something different than the kind of single-minded obsession of Beren and Luthien and the kind of detached love we see of the wandering Aragorn and Arwen.
That terse little exchange - with so much story packed into so few words - comes, I deem, from the same place in Tolkien's soul as that long conversation that Húrin and Morwen have one day at Túrin's home in Dor-lómin. (If you read it closely, _The Children of Húrin_ has some of the most densely brilliant writing that Tolkien ever did, some truly spellbinding exchanges, and _Morwen v. Húrin_ is in my Top 5 Tolkien Conversations Ever. They absolutely go at each other verbally, no mercy. You can see why, days later, _Húrin v. Morgoth_ was a draw: after Morwen, Morgoth was an anticlimax. I love it. It's right up there with _Finduilas v. Gwindor,_ or even better, the very underrated _Túrin v. Arminas._ )
So dense, and so satisfying! Morwen and Hurin's courtship probably consisted of relentless roasting to the point where when they announced their betrothal everyone else was shocked, having thought the two hated each other 🤣
@GirlNextGondor Strangely, I once had the _exact_ experience you describe; wherefore I can personally attest to Huor's feelings of uncertainty and wonder, on learning of Húrin's betrothal to Morwen. In citing my favorite Tolkien verbal bouts, I left off three of my faves. In reverse chronological order: 1️⃣ _Mithrandir Incánus v. Denethor II:_ "For _I_ am a steward also. Did you not know?" Bloody savage. And it surely would've gone even worse, had the Hobbit not been present. 2️⃣ _Curunír' Lân v. Théoden Ednew:_ ". . . But I find your _voice_ has lost its _charm."_ All the Rohirrim around their King would have gone absolutely mad at that line, whooping in delight and clashing their swords, like a _Wild 'n Out_ crowd after an unanswerable truth bomb. 3️⃣ _Beleg Cúthalion v. Túrin Naeramarth:_ Perhaps the most bitter fight of them all, and it was over a bit of waybread: "Then send back your sword and your arms. Send back also the teaching and fostering of your youth. And let your men die in the desert to please your mood! Nonetheless this waybread was a gift not to you, but to _me._ And _I_ may do with it as I will. Eat it not, if it sticks in your throat! But others may be more hungry and less proud." (Of course, _Beleg v. Túrin_ was really a continuation of an already longstanding argument - a "tryst", the narrator calls it: -"Why would I walk with an elf-maiden?" -"To learn what she could teach, maybe...?" Our word, _baggage,_ doesn't BEGIN to cover it; and I'm going to stop right there, before I get too deep into the REAL darkness, lurking beneath the roiling surface of Tolkien's darkest text.)
Your videos are great. Found your channel not long ago and enjoy both your choice of stories but the commentary and explanations, and you have a good voice for this. Thanks
If a man and a woman are attracted to each other, and there is a treat to their relationship or their lives, they tend to just fall in love quickly. At least that's what's happening in the literature, and seems natural. Idril and Tuor must have truly loved each other, because they didn't have to act quickly.
I'd like to think that whatever their fate was, it was well for them. I'd also like to think that if Tuor did eventually die and pass beyond the Circles of the World that Eru offered Idril the choice to do the same.
I agree, I like to think that whatever choices they ended up making, they were made willingly and resulted in a sense of peace rather than anguish. Even poor Earendil is hinted to have some regret over his Eldafication; it'd be nice to get a scenario where the couple can *sincerely* embrace their fate!
Actually, we don't know exactly what happens to the Fëar of Man after it goes to the place Eru set aside. Maybe Beren and Luthien are together again but actually we don't know. My point is if they both can live as Elves forever, we know that is a happy ending. That is likely why I prefer that kind of ending, maybe forced to live in Tol Eressëa, where Elwing could visit them from her Northern coastal island. Regardless, I doubt they could ever see Earendil again.
@@Enerdhil Well, Tolkien doesn't spell it out but given his Catholic beliefs and their influence on the Legendarium, I feel confident they went to an afterlife together. After all, Tolkien and wife's graves are inscribed with the names Beren and Lúthien.
As a character, it's good that Tuor is surrounded by so much tragedy, destruction, and poor judgment. Idril at least rebelled and left Aman. Other than that, they are both very nice, obedient, and wise people, and can barely set a foot wrong. It's kinda nice, actually, even if it sounds a bit boring. As people, I certainly do not grudge them their happy relationship, or even if Tuor was allowed to become an adopted Firstborn.
Well Idril was a baby when they left Aman. Also, it might just be that in Aman Men can, like Elros, choose the time of their death, and Tour just doesn’t.
The love between this pair is very grounded, that Tuor came to Valinor, if that be true, gave the Valar a problem, he as a man could not exist there. Their grounded love made it impossible for the Valar to sunder them, hence the choice of making him elf. Not so convinced of the truth of this legend. However one can see how and why that might happen. A couple who loved and supported one another through thick and thin. And parents to hope, a hope that still shines down on the world. What more could one couple achieve? Thanks GNG wonderful insights as ever.
You know... it stood out to me that Tuor was the tallest human ever... while Thingol was the tallest of all of the children of Illuvatar. I'd imagine his height did have something to do with his success in his endeavors... but I'm not sure how I would support that. I was eager to hear your thoughts on it... but so far you haven't mentioned it. I'll keep listening.
I always doubted the whole they made it to Valinor. If that were the case, then why could they together have made the plea to help Middle-earth? Are we expected to believe they made it just blew off Middle-earth. That doesn't seem in character. Now them being trapped in the Shadowy Seas until after their son and daughter-in-law arrive, that could make sense. And with the Valar forgiving the Noldor and allowing them to come back, Tuor and Idril could have been released from the sea's enchantment at that time.
The weirdest part is that Tuor is supposed to have been transformed to have elvish immortality, which is so weirdly different from everything else that Tolkien writes about mortals and immortals.
This is a comment that I wrote for another video talking about if Tuor was allowed to be immortal (It was for a Men of the West video called 'Why Couldn't Men Go Into Valinor?' Personally, I do think that Tuor was allowed to live in Valinor with Idril. Some fans bought a common thread of how elf/man couples live and die similar fates. Beren and Luthien lived and died as mortals, Aragorn and Arwen lived and died as mortals, but if Tuor died and Idril lived, there's a disconnect. Though this may seem unfair and not great, I feel like Tuor makes a better exception to become immortal. Tuor was a man who lived among elves most of his life, his father Huor lived in Gondolin, and he was among the Edain, houses of men that served elves. Ulmo, a Valar, himself chose to tell Tuor a warning message to Gondolin while Beren and Aragorn were only able to meet Maiar, Melian and Olorin (Gandalf) respectively. Tuor was able to marry Idril and bear the savior of men and elves, Earendil. So honestly, though this is unfair to both Beren and Aragorn along with Luthien and Arwen, I'd say that Tuor still has a fair claim to be immortal. Also, it says that Eru Illuvatar himself chose to give Tuor his blessing. Beren and Aragorn were raised by men but Tuor had his whole life surrounded by elves, making him to me more elf in nature than man. So, this is run on, but I feel that because Tuor became closest of elf friends to elf, Eru Illuvatar decided to make an exception. After all, he's God, so i'm sure that he gets to say the final fates of his children. Plus, it spices the story up nicely to have only one man be an elf after a life of being one of the best, if not the closest, elf friend to elf. (Or even elf family) P.S. I also bet Ulmo had a say in this too, being the Vala that gave Tuor a message himself. P.S.S. in the light that Earendil was there in Valinor and no mention of Tuor was made, I propose a possiblity that Tuor and Idril were laid to sleep until Earendil came to Valinor. Then, afterwards, Tuor was made Elf to be with his family again when Earendil chose to be an elf. That way, Earendil doesn't feel like too much of an outcast as being originally man.
It does *seem* unfair, but Tuor would be giving something up by joining Idril and her clan, just as Luthien and Arwen exchanged their Elven longevity for the "Gift of Men." So I don't have much problem with the idea of Tuor being offered a choice. Like you said, he probably identifies more as an Elf (albeit a strange one) anyway. Plus, how can we forego the prospect of putting a Man in the House of Finwe? Finrod would be over the moon, the Feanorians would be roundly appalled (if they ever found out), and Finarfin et al would simply be bewildered 🤣
@@GirlNextGondor yeah, also, Tuor would probably be a good person to keep so that Earendil feels less alone as a former man. Of course, Finrod would be happy, most eleves would be intrigued, and Feanor would be rolling in the Halls of Mandos. But, honestly, I don't think all of Feanor's sons would react badly. We know Maedhros and Maglor were relatively chill without Feanor's Oath and Caranthir was known to be a little open minded about humans towards the end of his life. Amrod and Amros might be ambivalent. But yeah, Celegorm and Curufin would be pissed beyond the moon.
@@GirlNextGondor Oh, they'd find out alright. Remember: the Eldar in the Host of the Valar would know. There's no way none of them died in the fighting that overthrew Morgoth. I can just see it now... Turgon: 'What news from Middle-Earth?' Random Vanya: 'Oh! Turgon... you know that mortal kid your daughter married? Ulmo's guy? Yeaaaah, turns out Ulmo talked Eru into a special case. Something about 'Oh, you were cool with Aule's _dwarves_ though. C'mon, Dad, I never ask for anything.' Maeglin: 'WHAT THE?!? That's it, I'm gonna go whine to Great-Uncle Feanor's side of the family! You're all JERKS!'
I think Tolkien dwelt too much on the exquisite. Tutor's journey to the hidden kingdom and it's fall has to be perfect, as he imagines it. It gets better and better, but it's never quite right.
@@GirlNextGondor also he needed somebody to get his head gently and lovingly and point it to the current task whenever he went LOOK A SQUIRREL. But then we probably would have some brilliant but slowly getting obsolete Definitive Texts on Philology and no LOTR or Silmarillion.
Well idrill was full elf and arwwn was not . Lutian may have sacrificed her immorality to give beren life and be together in the afterlife. ? Thier son eas halfelven so the choice could be made although not as pleasant a fate. Not middle earth or valinor Idrill also lost her mother on the crossing. Overcoming tragedy.
If being raised by elves didn't "Elv-ify" Tuor completely being immersed in the presence of Ulmo for a prolonged time probably moved where Tuor was on the human - elf scale in the same way Thingol was moved on the elf - maiar scale. Thingol was definitely changed spending long years standing still in the presence of Melian. Of note! Having worked in health care, I notice more than a handful of White males of the older generation who actually loved Black women but never married them. One of the most famous was Strom Thurmond. On the other hand there are tons of White women who partnered with Black husbands. The dynamics might suggest a status bump up for women, but a status down for men. This was mentioned by one of the White men I cared for and also from the words of Strom.. I think its reflected in Tolkien's lack of consummation and partnership by elven men with mortal women.
Great video! Similar to how Aragorn and Arwen were a reflection of Beren and Luthien, I wonder if there is an untold tale somewhere in Middle-earth that echoes Tuor and Idril's story...
Tuor was a messenger from Ulmo, to a king of the Noldor, who had lived in Aman. while Beren was driven by fate, who trespassed into the realm of the Grey Elves, which might have something to do with the difference in their welcomes.
Why didn’t they ever go back to Nevrast? It was never discovered as Tuor went there and found the mail and sword after all. Seems like it would have been an ideal spot to hang out and await the ending of the Age.
Honestly, if I were one of the Numenorians questioning their mortality and the Ban of the Valar to the Eldar visitors, I would ask about Tuor. He was mortal as well but he became one of the firstborn and lived in Valinor
I did it prompted by a Darth Gandalf video about a year ago, lemme find it... Edit: Found it. Here's the old comment: If we followed Elrond's bloodline as far back as possible, we probably would find that he's a complete mix of many houses. My example would be Turin and Tuor, both of whom were nominally princes of the House of Hador, but were actually "more" House of Beor than Hador, since both their fathers were half Hador and half Haladin, and their mothers both Beor, which made them half Beor and only quarter Hador and Haladin, respectively. Same could go for Elrond, who is probably more Sindar or Edain in general than anything else. Edit: I calculated it, using all the information available in the Silmarilion. According to that Elrond is: 10/32 Sindar 8/32 House of Beor 5/32 Vanya 3/32 Noldo (by far the least of the three Eldar houses) 2/32 House of Haleth 2/32 House of Hador 2/32 Maia Overall 18/32 Eldar, 12/32 Edain and the remaining 2/32 Maia. Interesting! What I always liked about Elrond and Elros is that they basically combine all the important houses from First Age in Beleriand, making them all live on in a way What's also notable is that the Feanorians didn't manage to get into the mighty Elrond & Elros mix at all. Well, maybe if Curufin amd Caranthir had been more successful with their attempted gettin' jiggy with Lúthien 😅😂
@@muenchhausenmusic Thanks for posting this breakdown of Elrond and Elros's bloodline. I always thought it was strange to call Elrond "Half Elven." If the Twins were actually 50% Elf, then I understand giving them a choice, but they are clearly more Elf than Man.
Thank you for Tuor. The only man that is counted as the Eldar& sails east to Valinor and live. My favorite. He also has a direct meeting with Ulmo the Valar of water.
An excellent video, one of your best thus far, am weirdly very fond of this couple. They are the counter in some ways to Beren and Luthien, wihtout being of course evil or anything. A mirror image of that much more epic couple. Their story is overshadowed as you said by the Fall of Gondolin, and yet they remain steadfast as a team and in their devotion to their son.
Thank you! I really had fun working on this one. I love the point that Tuor and Idril are a counterweight to Beren and Luthien (while Aragorn and Arwen are more like... a reboot?). I think each story enhances the other, rather than taking something away.
@@GirlNextGondor Agreed on every point there, though the reboot thing is something I never would have thought to word that way lol, but it does make sense to do so.
Ulmo watched one man of Hador screw up his plans and let one of the hidden cities fall for little to no reason. He sure wasn't gonna let that happen again. 😂
As someone who lives 1500 miles from the nearest ocean I have never once understood Tolkien's Brit Sea Longing motif. Tuor, Earendil, Aldarion, Legolas... I've seen the ocean and meh. Also boo, men > elves
Oh the Noldor absolutely do not deserve Tuor. If he did indeed accept kinship with them, it would be an act of mercy on his part 🤣 I think it very much depends on the sea you're seeing, so to speak. Tuor's experience of the ocean was divinely exaggerated for maxiumum doom-y impact. Poor boy never stood a chance.
Wouldn't Tuor living an eleven lifespan interfere with the gift of Eru to mortals? I thought only Eru could change someone's life span, not something a Valar could do.
Yup -- it does seem that the Valar can, in some cases, modify or temporarily suspend the Gift of Men, but to take it away entirely would have to be an act of Eru, or else directly sanctioned by him. Theoretically Eru can break the rules whenever he wants, but whether he *would* have in this case causes much debate.
3:45 the notion of Elves accepting mortality as some kind of punishment seems a little untolkien to me. After all, mortality ain't that bad. It is Eru's personal gift to humanity. Hence, it probably should not be scoffed upon. At least, not too loudly.
@@GirlNextGondor: The idea of Ulmo being "heavy-handed" never occurred to me on my own: maybe because I'm more comfortable (imaginatively) with the idea of divine guidance (even though its role in real life has been problematic for me, not from being heavy-handed but from being the subject of delusions). I've told you (Lexi) in private e-mails of my never-finished fanfic wherein Ulmo provides a similar piece of divine planning for a Second-Age quest by the returned Finrod. (Spoiler, if such a warning is needed for unfinished fanfic) In my version, Idril and Tuor turn out to have spent most of the Second Age asleep in the Tower of Pearl on the island of Gondobar, having got tangled up sailing among the islands just east of Aman (as in your headcanon mentioned in another of these comments). That long period of absence explains why there are different versions of their fate. But enough for now.
Ulmo is to the Valar what Gandalf was to the wizards. The one that remembered his job. Or Ulmo was working for Eru, to care for his children, and Manwe was working for Tolkien, to make a good story.
what do you personally think happened to Tuor and Idril when they sailed west? Did Tuor really become immortal? There's no mention of Earendil meeting his parents in Aman, which always struck me as odd, but maybe it wasn't relevant to the overall story, so it perhaps wasn't mentioned
I like the idea of them being permanently stuck in the confusing labyrinth of islands around Valinor, perpetually sailing, doomed never to find rest... which might be a punishment for most people but they're actually fine with it. Tuor gets to spend plenty of time with Ulmo (and Osse and Uinen, one guesses), and Idril is sort of over the rest of her screwed-up kin and doesn't really believe in the idea of a permanent home anyway. Post-stellification, Earendil gets to drop in occasionally - or maybe Elwing just carries messages for them.
@@GirlNextGondor What you're telling me then is that Tuor becomes Odysseus for the rest of his life. That seems a bit depressing, but it makes things a bit neater imo, because Earendil and Elwing getting to Aman is a big deal, and I feel that impact is somehow lessened by Tuor and Idril being welcomed with open arms. What if Earendil, upon reaching Aman, pleads the Valar to allow Tuor and Idril in, and then thereafter they get to dwell in Aman?
I have always assumed that Earendil never got to live in Valinor. I don't know if it was a punishment or not, but he was tasked with flying the Silmaril across the sky every night forever. I don't recall ever reading that he could hang out in Eldamar in the day time. I have always assumed he was permanently in that craft. On the other hand, Ewing can fly up and meet him, so maybe she could give his parents a message.
My understanding is that when Beren and Luthien were brought back to live out their days, Luthien was made human, which would make Dior fully human. Is this not correct? 🤔
I would think that IF Tuor was not granted Elfhood by Eru, the truth would have gotten to Middle Earth long before the end of the Third Age. We must assume that when the Teleri were communicating with the Faithful of Numenor, all of the stories were revealed to them and they were all classically educated into those story traditions. My point is that Tuor absolutely must have become an Elf and received immortal life.
It seems like the kind of legend that's unlikely to have emerged *totally* spontaneously. There's enough of a time lapse between when the Elves stopped visiting Numenor and when the legends were finally recorded that it might not be a completely accurate representation of what really happened. But I think the fact that the rumor exists at all means there must have been *something* unusual or notable about Tuor's fate.
I have wondered about that as well. The Akallabeth describes the Numenoreans asking why they shouldn't be allowed in Aman, if their ancestor Earendil is... but Earendil is fully half Elven. Even if Tuor's immortality was just a legend after all, you'd think the Numenoreans would at least bring him up, if only for the messengers of Manwe to disabuse them -- after all the Kings of Numenor had more claim to Elvendom, by blood at least, than Tuor did!
The appendix on language states that the vowel 'i' always has approximately the sound it has in the English word 'machine.' Since the last syllable is unstressed, a 'native' Sindarin speaker would, admittedly, likely make it a bit shorter in duration and less lax than I can manage, but it should rhyme more closely with 'machine' than with 'bin'.
Lexi is right about the "leen." If you understood the pronunciation of Sindarin, you would have cried about her pronunciation of "gone" rather than "goan." You look like a butthead calling someone out for pronunciation mistakes when you are the one who is mistaken.
Beren: I want to marry your daughter.
Thingol: Bring me a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth.
Aragorn: I want to marry your daughter.
Elrond: Become the High King of Gondor and Arnor.
Tour: I want to marry your daughter.
Turgon: I'm gonna start planning the wedding!
Andreth: I wanna marry your kid brother!
Finrod: NO.
This is why I like Turgon despite his big mistake in not heeding Ulmo's warning.
😂
Imrazôr the Númenórean: "Mithy, you're sure your dad will be cool with this, right?"
Rosie Cotton: I wanna marry your son.
The Gaffer: Okay by me longsa' ya get 'im to stop wearin' all that ironmongery and pay proper respect to my tater patch!
This all goes to show that Idril is the absolutely most awesome female elf ever and needs a lot more appreciation.
Idril should have been High King, the Elves wouldn't have had nearly so many issues 😆
@@GirlNextGondorI mean, she is next in line.
Its interesting to note how many women would have done better. Idril of course, Thingol ignoring Melian's advice leads to his death, The Numenoreans pass over Silmarien for her brother, and she becomes the ancestor of the Faithful Lords of Andunie while her brother is the ancestor of the traitor kings, Pharazon's overthrow of Miriel ended.... poorly. Gondor's refusal to allow Ondoher's daughter Firiel to succeed caused the fall of Arnor. and the end of the line of kings. Its a bit of a theme. @@GirlNextGondor
From a certain aspect idril was more successful than luthien.
I love these two. I believe that if there are two people in Arda capable of being sundered without it becoming a tragedy, it’s these two. I imagine Tuor slipping quietly away with a smile, holding his wife’s hand in the sure knowledge that they will meet again. That’s why the walk off the Silmarillion, closing the door quietly behind them while everybody else is watching the Third Kinslaying in horror. They are so sane, well adjusted and drama-free that they don’t belong in the Silmarillion, period.
Well said 👏👏 👏 👏 👏 👏
Why haven't you done celeborn and galadriel.
"Idril became taciturn, and prophesied to Tuor that he would have to make a choice, and that the time was near. Her husband could not understand her, but obeyed her counsels."
Always found this summarization from TG funny. How much misery would have been prevented if Feanor listened to Nerdanel, Thingol to Melian, or Aldarion to Erendis. Tolkien's message seems clear: Husbands, listen to your wives.
See, this is why Celeborn is called the Wise: when he's being a bit of an idiot to Gimli and Galadriel calls him out, he listens, acknowledges his fault, and makes good.
@@stnylanTHIS!!
Like, SO MANY other Elves who could've reached his age didn't, and by the end of the 3rd Age and into the 4th, he was still going strong, and still with his hot wise wife.
Dude won in the end.
and let them take half. XD That was for another era, not for this full of stronk indapandant wahman no need no man.
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 Begone, stormcrow!
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 This weird response doesn't seem connected to the initial comment...
A Tuor de Force.
😆
I Ulmo-st missed that 😉
When Tolkien says that Tuor is “counted among the Noldor”, I don’t necessarily think that means that he was granted bodily immortality (particularly since he was already weary when he and Idril set sail), rather that his spirit was granted release from the “seeking elsewhither” that afflicts mortal men and that he was allowed to remain tied to the circles of the world (presumably in Mandos, from whence he may or may not have been bodied forth again). This would mean that his and Idril’s fates would remain tied together for eternity, whatever might befall their fleshly envelopes.
Strangely, the description of Tuor walking through the 7 gates unto Gondolin still is some of my favorite of Tolkien's writing
There is something just so evocative about the gates.
You could probably write a thesis for a doctorate on the materials used and the symbolism implied or stated.
Ladt time I was this early, Gandalf was still grey
I'll allow it: a WinRAR you are
@@penelopegreene what is a WinRAR please?
This video really made me rethink Tuor and realize they are the real power couple of Beleriand.
There's a reason Maeglin's desire for Idril is all tangled up in his political ambition. She's a kingmaker 🥰 and Tuor is a feral-yet-wellspoken High Priest of the Sea. If anyone can simply opt out of mortality through sheer force of will, it's them.
Actually Elu Thingol and Melian are the most powerful couple in Beleriand.
The rate of uploads lately has been spectacular, and so is the content.
I always felt like Tuor and Idril constituted a prototype for Beren and Luthien but that Tolkien's notorious philosophy of never discarding ANYTHING made him keep the Gondolin story around and try to work it into the Legendarium alongside what is essentially its newer, sexier reboot. That being said, the stories are obviously distinct enough to stand on their own.
I always wondered if Eärendil staying in Tolkien's headcanon is what doomed Dior to irrelevance, because since the overarching plot was already set and Tolkien refused to change it, there wasn't really any room for a second half-elven savior figure, especially not earlier in the timeline.
Like you I root for Tuor and Idril and hope their story had a relatively happy ending.
I do often wish that Dior and Elwing were not father and daughter but that one single half-elf child took both of their roles as the legacy and child of Beren and Luthien. Plus I heard theories that Dior, despite having immortal ancestry, was still considered a human which sucks because this man is part Ainu and deserves at least to stay in Aman. At the very least his battle against Feanor's ugly sons could've gone down a less tragic route
I have several thoughts about Tuor and Idril:
Tuor is a foil of his cousin Turin first in looks with Tuor actually favoring the Men of Hador while Turin does not. Tuor is open about who he is and why he has come to the hidden Noldor stronghold built at the behest of Ulmo while Turin comes up with yet more edgy aliases. Tuor doesn't inadvertently sabotage the pretty blonde Elf princess' relationship with someone who was made prisoner in Angband but Gwindor had a rougher go of it than Maeglin and he still got partially eaten by Glaurung at Tumhalad before Turin fails to save anyone from the sack of Nargothrond and poor Finduilas got to pinned that tree. Also Gwindor isn't an incel.
The most important difference is Turin was under the Curse of Morgoth, while Tuor was under the blessing of Ulmo.😁👍
Tuor and Idril are the right side of the bell curve, the A+ people. They also obey the promptings, or perhaps have the wisdom to follow the foresighted advice of Ulmo, President of the Children of Eru Fan Club. Ulmo wants Tuor to deliver a message? Tuor thanks Ulmo for the swag and heads to Gondolin. Idril gets, "a bad feeling about this," and talks it over with the emissary of Ulmo and then acts on what her heart knows will happen one day soon. Sometimes doing what you know to be right teams up with taking full advantage of the opportunities grated by fate or birth to make an extraordinary pair of lives. Cheers, by the way, to Ulmo, the only Vala who didn't leave Children alone in the Dark.
The only truly genre-savvy characters in the Silmarillion are Tuor, Idril, and Ulmo 💖
Now let’s not diss Elbereth/Varda, who at least kept her ears open.
For Idril to act on her intuition requires about the same level of faith that Noah had when he built the Arc.
@Enerdhil Really? To me it's more like if Elon Musk wanted to dig a nuclear bunker in his backyard. Odd but not like he'd have trouble finding the resources. Idril also doesn't need permits as she is in more likely in charge of the permits. Low risk.
@@specialnewb9821
Actually, Elon Musk would likely NOT need his bunker to save his life, whereas Idril would end up needing the crazy long underground stairs that led to a tunnel that crossed under the ground between Tumladen and the Encircling Mountains.
Of course, everyone knew what Noah was doing, so it is different that way, but Idril took Ulmo's words much more seriously than did her father or even her husband. She saved the lives of her people with that escape plan
Tuor and Idril are the best! They're partners, and take each other seriously and i always thought they were very practical. I loved them more then Beren & Luthien because they were so much more relatable and worked together from the start. I was happy to finally read a love story that wasn't so full of drama, with such a well balanced couple that maybe got a happy ending too! I mean i suppose Beren and Luthien also got a happy ending but somehow it didn't feel like it... Tuor and Idril felt better. I love the Silmarillion but a lot of the time it feels like a string of tragedies 😅
I like both to be honest.
"a lot of the time it feels like a string of tragedies"
Then you read the tales of the sons of Hurin and you realize what Tolkien's idea of a tragedy is. Yes, his default tone is beauty and loss, you even find it in the lightest tale, The Hobbit. Oh! For then day when all shall be renewed!
"Gondolin was a merry old fellow. Its spires were white and its streets were Jell-O." -Early Tolkein draft of The Fall of Gondolin.
Oooh Gon-Gondolin! Gon-Gondo-dillo!
Wow! I had no idea that a song about Gondolin was written by Tom Bombadil.😂😆🤣
GNG has uploaded, and it is a good day therefore!
I wonder if Glorfindel will sneak a mention. It's a Gondolin-heavy episode, after all.
He does have a brief cameo 😁
A very wholesome marriage. A nice contrast to, you know, Turin. * shudders *
The fact that supposedly Tuor glimpses Turin (having one of his many breakdowns) on his way to Gondolin is both hilarious and chilling to me.
"Hilarious and chilling" is a good way to put that. @@GirlNextGondor
I love how I’m probably not the only one who stays up at night randomly thinking about these things😂 You literally articulate and theorize all of my wild and disconnected thoughts about the legendarium and random elven thinkings in a great videos 🙏🏻
It's such a relief to know we're not the only ones 🤣 glad it helped!
My head canon is that Tuor totally became immortal lol.
Agree.👍😁
My favorite part of mythology (Fall of Gondolin) along side with Union of Maedhros.
Gondolin has always had a special place in my heart.
@@GirlNextGondor When I was younger I only had Silmarillion, way before I bought History of Middle Earth, and Gondolin story was always untold for me or let's say very obscure. Now I have History of Middle Earth and The Fall of Gondilin and I can connect dots and from various versions of a tale create my own full version of The Fall of Gondolin and travels of Tuor.
Thanks for this awesome video! Tuor and Idril are also my favorite ME couple. I personaly believe that Tuor became an elf and he lives together with Idril in some nice quiet place in Aman. As you mentioned - he spent 99% of time with elves, so he is the best choice for a man turning in to an elf.
I think Tuor must have had a lot of great Elven husband role models. Mortal couples would find something to argue about, but Tuor and Idril never questioned one another. Tuor fully feserves to be an Elf on Aman.
My new favorite channel, your insights on Tolkien and the legendarium are unique and truly inspired. Can't wait to see the channel grow to the immense heights of which you are most certainly capable! Hoping for a live-streamed DtHH sometime soon!
Thank you so much 🥰
I think there might be some livestreaming in the near future!
The Fall of Gondolin is my favorite of the three great tales, so I am very happy with this video!
I love the history of Tuor. The story told in Unfinished tales when he comes to Nevrast and the empty halls of Vinyemar.
My favourite Elf / Man couple!
They're so sweet 😍 but also very hardcore.
I only recently heard the Fall of Gondolin story separate from the silm and the additional details of Tuor and Idril make me love them so much more. I like the concept of Human / Elf unlikely couples, but Tuor and Idril actually seem to be a real, solid couple, you sense their deep love and feel it to be something different than the kind of single-minded obsession of Beren and Luthien and the kind of detached love we see of the wandering Aragorn and Arwen.
That terse little exchange - with so much story packed into so few words - comes, I deem, from the same place in Tolkien's soul as that long conversation that Húrin and Morwen have one day at Túrin's home in Dor-lómin.
(If you read it closely, _The Children of Húrin_ has some of the most densely brilliant writing that Tolkien ever did, some truly spellbinding exchanges, and _Morwen v. Húrin_ is in my Top 5 Tolkien Conversations Ever. They absolutely go at each other verbally, no mercy. You can see why, days later, _Húrin v. Morgoth_ was a draw: after Morwen, Morgoth was an anticlimax. I love it. It's right up there with _Finduilas v. Gwindor,_ or even better, the very underrated _Túrin v. Arminas._ )
So dense, and so satisfying!
Morwen and Hurin's courtship probably consisted of relentless roasting to the point where when they announced their betrothal everyone else was shocked, having thought the two hated each other 🤣
Don:t forget Queen Beruthiel and King Tarannon.🤣😆😂
@GirlNextGondor Strangely, I once had the _exact_ experience you describe; wherefore I can personally attest to Huor's feelings of uncertainty and wonder, on learning of Húrin's betrothal to Morwen.
In citing my favorite Tolkien verbal bouts, I left off three of my faves. In reverse chronological order:
1️⃣ _Mithrandir Incánus v. Denethor II:_
"For _I_ am a steward also. Did you not know?" Bloody savage. And it surely would've gone even worse, had the Hobbit not been present.
2️⃣ _Curunír' Lân v. Théoden Ednew:_
". . . But I find your _voice_ has lost its _charm."_ All the Rohirrim around their King would have gone absolutely mad at that line, whooping in delight and clashing their swords, like a _Wild 'n Out_ crowd after an unanswerable truth bomb.
3️⃣ _Beleg Cúthalion v. Túrin Naeramarth:_
Perhaps the most bitter fight of them all, and it was over a bit of waybread: "Then send back your sword and your arms. Send back also the teaching and fostering of your youth. And let your men die in the desert to please your mood! Nonetheless this waybread was a gift not to you, but to _me._ And _I_ may do with it as I will. Eat it not, if it sticks in your throat! But others may be more hungry and less proud."
(Of course, _Beleg v. Túrin_ was really a continuation of an already longstanding argument - a "tryst", the narrator calls it:
-"Why would I walk with an elf-maiden?"
-"To learn what she could teach, maybe...?"
Our word, _baggage,_ doesn't BEGIN to cover it; and I'm going to stop right there, before I get too deep into the REAL darkness, lurking beneath the roiling surface of Tolkien's darkest text.)
@@GirlNextGondor
Yes. Morwen was even unwilling to do what Rían did when her hubby didn't return home.😏
Thanks lexi . I love this story. I do love tours reaction to meaglan laying hands on his family on the walls. . He certainly eat his spinach 😋
This is one of my favorite stories.
Your videos are great. Found your channel not long ago and enjoy both your choice of stories but the commentary and explanations, and you have a good voice for this. Thanks
Don't forget Lexi's wry sense of humor.😂
Thank you, it's amazing and incredibly satisfying how we seem to agree on and favour the same things of the legendarium😆
Ulmo is definitely a better railroading GM than Morgoth at least.
I had never considered before how awesome Idril is. Thanks for a great recap of their story. I hold out hope that they're both very happy in Valinor!
It's nice that we have at least the *possibility* of one non-tragic ending from the Silmarillion!
They could be exiled on Tol Eressëa.
@@Enerdhil I would resign myself to such an awful fate…
Tuor and Idril was my favorite of the elf/man pairs probably because the details are so scant
Heck yeah! Another GnG video on the same day as The Red Book drops one!? Today’s a good day 😊
I read the Silmarillion so I could better grasp Earendil, but Tour is a large portion of what I stayed for.
Probably my favorite First Age Man. He's kind of like the Faramir of the Silmarillion....
Babe, wake up! There's a new video out! And a fight on the walls! And fire in the city! Are those...dragons?
"Lo, Turgon, I come to you even from Ulmo, the very Lord of Waters, and unto you he saieth: babe, wake up."
@@GirlNextGondorTurgon: "Meldonya, what is babe?"
I was just watching your playlist on the romances in Middle Earth yesterday. Delighted that there is another episode!
Love your interpretation!!! You feel a bit like a new light and revelation compared to the other main stream channels!!!
If a man and a woman are attracted to each other, and there is a treat to their relationship or their lives, they tend to just fall in love quickly. At least that's what's happening in the literature, and seems natural. Idril and Tuor must have truly loved each other, because they didn't have to act quickly.
I'd like to think that whatever their fate was, it was well for them. I'd also like to think that if Tuor did eventually die and pass beyond the Circles of the World that Eru offered Idril the choice to do the same.
I agree, I like to think that whatever choices they ended up making, they were made willingly and resulted in a sense of peace rather than anguish. Even poor Earendil is hinted to have some regret over his Eldafication; it'd be nice to get a scenario where the couple can *sincerely* embrace their fate!
Actually, we don't know exactly what happens to the Fëar of Man after it goes to the place Eru set aside. Maybe Beren and Luthien are together again but actually we don't know.
My point is if they both can live as Elves forever, we know that is a happy ending. That is likely why I prefer that kind of ending, maybe forced to live in Tol Eressëa, where Elwing could visit them from her Northern coastal island. Regardless, I doubt they could ever see Earendil again.
@@Enerdhil Well, Tolkien doesn't spell it out but given his Catholic beliefs and their influence on the Legendarium, I feel confident they went to an afterlife together. After all, Tolkien and wife's graves are inscribed with the names Beren and Lúthien.
@@istari0
Maybe you are right. Tolkien was a romantic at heart, so in his own heart, love lasts forever.
@@Enerdhil his did. He met Ethel at 19 and there was never anybody else.
So how many of the people here find these delvings a healing balm in their day? Thanks to many.
My only thought : "And [at the risk of copyright infringement] wuv, tru wuv, will fowow you foweva..." ❤
Maeglin (through gritted teeth, dragging Idril in front of the nearest Balrog): MAN and WIFE, say MAN and WIFE!
😆@@GirlNextGondor
As a character, it's good that Tuor is surrounded by so much tragedy, destruction, and poor judgment. Idril at least rebelled and left Aman. Other than that, they are both very nice, obedient, and wise people, and can barely set a foot wrong. It's kinda nice, actually, even if it sounds a bit boring.
As people, I certainly do not grudge them their happy relationship, or even if Tuor was allowed to become an adopted Firstborn.
I prefer to think that Tuor was transformed into an Elf, not just given a certificate (so to say).😉
Well Idril was a baby when they left Aman. Also, it might just be that in Aman Men can, like Elros, choose the time of their death, and Tour just doesn’t.
@@annafdd
Idril Celebrindal was born in Y.T. 1479. The crossing of the Helcaraxë was in Y.T. 1500, so she was 21 years old when she crossed.
@@annafdd Good point on Idril's age. I didn't realize that.
@@Enerdhil yeah but to Elven standards she was practically a toddler
The love between this pair is very grounded, that Tuor came to Valinor, if that be true, gave the Valar a problem, he as a man could not exist there. Their grounded love made it impossible for the Valar to sunder them, hence the choice of making him elf. Not so convinced of the truth of this legend. However one can see how and why that might happen. A couple who loved and supported one another through thick and thin. And parents to hope, a hope that still shines down on the world. What more could one couple achieve? Thanks GNG wonderful insights as ever.
You know... it stood out to me that Tuor was the tallest human ever... while Thingol was the tallest of all of the children of Illuvatar. I'd imagine his height did have something to do with his success in his endeavors... but I'm not sure how I would support that. I was eager to hear your thoughts on it... but so far you haven't mentioned it. I'll keep listening.
Maybe Tuor just grew to the size of the armor and helmet that Ulmo told Turgon to leave in Nevrast.🤔
I always doubted the whole they made it to Valinor. If that were the case, then why could they together have made the plea to help Middle-earth? Are we expected to believe they made it just blew off Middle-earth. That doesn't seem in character.
Now them being trapped in the Shadowy Seas until after their son and daughter-in-law arrive, that could make sense. And with the Valar forgiving the Noldor and allowing them to come back, Tuor and Idril could have been released from the sea's enchantment at that time.
The weirdest part is that Tuor is supposed to have been transformed to have elvish immortality, which is so weirdly different from everything else that Tolkien writes about mortals and immortals.
Well, Elrond was too initially born as mortal (as is the fate of all human elf hybrids) but got transformed into elf
@@konstantinriumin2657 They have a dual nature, whereas Tuor was purely mortal, not half and half
Immortality vs Mortality is the Theme of the Legendarium.
This is a comment that I wrote for another video talking about if Tuor was allowed to be immortal (It was for a Men of the West video called 'Why Couldn't Men Go Into Valinor?'
Personally, I do think that Tuor was allowed to live in Valinor with Idril. Some fans bought a common thread of how elf/man couples live and die similar fates. Beren and Luthien lived and died as mortals, Aragorn and Arwen lived and died as mortals, but if Tuor died and Idril lived, there's a disconnect. Though this may seem unfair and not great, I feel like Tuor makes a better exception to become immortal.
Tuor was a man who lived among elves most of his life, his father Huor lived in Gondolin, and he was among the Edain, houses of men that served elves. Ulmo, a Valar, himself chose to tell Tuor a warning message to Gondolin while Beren and Aragorn were only able to meet Maiar, Melian and Olorin (Gandalf) respectively. Tuor was able to marry Idril and bear the savior of men and elves, Earendil. So honestly, though this is unfair to both Beren and Aragorn along with Luthien and Arwen, I'd say that Tuor still has a fair claim to be immortal.
Also, it says that Eru Illuvatar himself chose to give Tuor his blessing. Beren and Aragorn were raised by men but Tuor had his whole life surrounded by elves, making him to me more elf in nature than man. So, this is run on, but I feel that because Tuor became closest of elf friends to elf, Eru Illuvatar decided to make an exception. After all, he's God, so i'm sure that he gets to say the final fates of his children. Plus, it spices the story up nicely to have only one man be an elf after a life of being one of the best, if not the closest, elf friend to elf. (Or even elf family)
P.S. I also bet Ulmo had a say in this too, being the Vala that gave Tuor a message himself.
P.S.S. in the light that Earendil was there in Valinor and no mention of Tuor was made, I propose a possiblity that Tuor and Idril were laid to sleep until Earendil came to Valinor. Then, afterwards, Tuor was made Elf to be with his family again when Earendil chose to be an elf. That way, Earendil doesn't feel like too much of an outcast as being originally man.
It does *seem* unfair, but Tuor would be giving something up by joining Idril and her clan, just as Luthien and Arwen exchanged their Elven longevity for the "Gift of Men." So I don't have much problem with the idea of Tuor being offered a choice. Like you said, he probably identifies more as an Elf (albeit a strange one) anyway.
Plus, how can we forego the prospect of putting a Man in the House of Finwe? Finrod would be over the moon, the Feanorians would be roundly appalled (if they ever found out), and Finarfin et al would simply be bewildered 🤣
@@GirlNextGondor yeah, also, Tuor would probably be a good person to keep so that Earendil feels less alone as a former man.
Of course, Finrod would be happy, most eleves would be intrigued, and Feanor would be rolling in the Halls of Mandos.
But, honestly, I don't think all of Feanor's sons would react badly. We know Maedhros and Maglor were relatively chill without Feanor's Oath and Caranthir was known to be a little open minded about humans towards the end of his life. Amrod and Amros might be ambivalent.
But yeah, Celegorm and Curufin would be pissed beyond the moon.
@@GirlNextGondor Typical Fëanorians. They never learn.
@@GirlNextGondor Oh, they'd find out alright. Remember: the Eldar in the Host of the Valar would know. There's no way none of them died in the fighting that overthrew Morgoth. I can just see it now...
Turgon: 'What news from Middle-Earth?'
Random Vanya: 'Oh! Turgon... you know that mortal kid your daughter married? Ulmo's guy? Yeaaaah, turns out Ulmo talked Eru into a special case. Something about 'Oh, you were cool with Aule's _dwarves_ though. C'mon, Dad, I never ask for anything.'
Maeglin: 'WHAT THE?!? That's it, I'm gonna go whine to Great-Uncle Feanor's side of the family! You're all JERKS!'
Ulmo is so based. The only major vala that didn't land on his head when he entered Arda. Or if he did, he dove into water.
Yay! Watching now!
Caught it early!
Things never go well in Tolkien when husbands don't heed their wives. By contrast, when they do, they do some incredible stuff.
I think it is also true for us real life husbands.😅
I think Tolkien dwelt too much on the exquisite. Tutor's journey to the hidden kingdom and it's fall has to be perfect, as he imagines it. It gets better and better, but it's never quite right.
He probably needed to hear the phrase "don't make perfect the enemy of good" more often 😅
So to preach egoism is to practice altruism.
@@GirlNextGondor also he needed somebody to get his head gently and lovingly and point it to the current task whenever he went LOOK A SQUIRREL. But then we probably would have some brilliant but slowly getting obsolete Definitive Texts on Philology and no LOTR or Silmarillion.
Nice throw ing Eol off of the Carak dur
Thank you for your lovely videos! They're great, you're great, and I hope you have a wonderful day!
You're too kind! Glad you enjoyed, have an awesome day too!
Tolkien decided to cut one of his couples some slack.
Well idrill was full elf and arwwn was not . Lutian may have sacrificed her immorality to give beren life and be together in the afterlife. ?
Thier son eas halfelven so the choice could be made although not as pleasant a fate. Not middle earth or valinor
Idrill also lost her mother on the crossing. Overcoming tragedy.
So happy to find a new LotR lore channel. Brb, gonna go binge your content.
If being raised by elves didn't "Elv-ify" Tuor completely being immersed in the presence of Ulmo for a prolonged time probably moved where Tuor was on the human - elf scale in the same way Thingol was moved on the elf - maiar scale. Thingol was definitely changed spending long years standing still in the presence of Melian.
Of note! Having worked in health care, I notice more than a handful of White males of the older generation who actually loved Black women but never married them. One of the most famous was Strom Thurmond. On the other hand there are tons of White women who partnered with Black husbands. The dynamics might suggest a status bump up for women, but a status down for men. This was mentioned by one of the White men I cared for and also from the words of Strom.. I think its reflected in Tolkien's lack of consummation and partnership by elven men with mortal women.
Great video! Similar to how Aragorn and Arwen were a reflection of Beren and Luthien, I wonder if there is an untold tale somewhere in Middle-earth that echoes Tuor and Idril's story...
Tuor is my favorite.
Love the breakdowns you do
Tuor was a messenger from Ulmo, to a king of the Noldor, who had lived in Aman. while Beren was driven by fate, who trespassed into the realm of the Grey Elves, which might have something to do with the difference in their welcomes.
Why didn’t they ever go back to Nevrast? It was never discovered as Tuor went there and found the mail and sword after all. Seems like it would have been an ideal spot to hang out and await the ending of the Age.
Tolkien really just said "#goals" after taking a breather from WWI wth
Honestly, if I were one of the Numenorians questioning their mortality and the Ban of the Valar to the Eldar visitors, I would ask about Tuor. He was mortal as well but he became one of the firstborn and lived in Valinor
Low key, best couple! Thanks for another great video!
My head started spinning when I tried to figure out what percent of what race Elrond and Elros were.😅
I think I worked their Maiarin components out to something like 6.125% once. The REAL challenge would be figuring out Aragorn's percentage....
@@GirlNextGondor
😂😆🤣
I did it prompted by a Darth Gandalf video about a year ago, lemme find it...
Edit:
Found it. Here's the old comment:
If we followed Elrond's bloodline as far back as possible, we probably would find that he's a complete mix of many houses. My example would be Turin and Tuor, both of whom were nominally princes of the House of Hador, but were actually "more" House of Beor than Hador, since both their fathers were half Hador and half Haladin, and their mothers both Beor, which made them half Beor and only quarter Hador and Haladin, respectively.
Same could go for Elrond, who is probably more Sindar or Edain in general than anything else.
Edit: I calculated it, using all the information available in the Silmarilion. According to that Elrond is:
10/32 Sindar
8/32 House of Beor
5/32 Vanya
3/32 Noldo (by far the least of the three Eldar houses)
2/32 House of Haleth
2/32 House of Hador
2/32 Maia
Overall 18/32 Eldar, 12/32 Edain and the remaining 2/32 Maia. Interesting!
What I always liked about Elrond and Elros is that they basically combine all the important houses from First Age in Beleriand, making them all live on in a way
What's also notable is that the Feanorians didn't manage to get into the mighty Elrond & Elros mix at all. Well, maybe if Curufin amd Caranthir had been more successful with their attempted gettin' jiggy with Lúthien 😅😂
@@muenchhausenmusic
Thanks for posting this breakdown of Elrond and Elros's bloodline.
I always thought it was strange to call Elrond "Half Elven." If the Twins were actually 50% Elf, then I understand giving them a choice, but they are clearly more Elf than Man.
@@GirlNextGondor
12/32 Man is not 1/2. Tolkien's math sux!🤪
Nice work thanks
I love your creative methods of suggesting we like and subscribe :)
I loved this. Thank you so much. This channel is the absolute best.
These are the stories that need a tv show. House of the Dragon needs some healthy competition.
THANK YOU for dragging me to a better, saner, less tainted timeline where no tv series about the Legendarium has ever existed.
6:10 Tolkien's seemingly favorite way of killing off characters you wished you knew more about...
Thank you for Tuor. The only man that is counted as the Eldar& sails east to Valinor and live. My favorite. He also has a direct meeting with Ulmo the Valar of water.
An excellent video, one of your best thus far, am weirdly very fond of this couple. They are the counter in some ways to Beren and Luthien, wihtout being of course evil or anything. A mirror image of that much more epic couple.
Their story is overshadowed as you said by the Fall of Gondolin, and yet they remain steadfast as a team and in their devotion to their son.
Thank you! I really had fun working on this one. I love the point that Tuor and Idril are a counterweight to Beren and Luthien (while Aragorn and Arwen are more like... a reboot?). I think each story enhances the other, rather than taking something away.
@@GirlNextGondor Agreed on every point there, though the reboot thing is something I never would have thought to word that way lol, but it does make sense to do so.
Ulmo watched one man of Hador screw up his plans and let one of the hidden cities fall for little to no reason. He sure wasn't gonna let that happen again. 😂
As someone who lives 1500 miles from the nearest ocean I have never once understood Tolkien's Brit Sea Longing motif. Tuor, Earendil, Aldarion, Legolas... I've seen the ocean and meh.
Also boo, men > elves
Oh the Noldor absolutely do not deserve Tuor. If he did indeed accept kinship with them, it would be an act of mercy on his part 🤣
I think it very much depends on the sea you're seeing, so to speak. Tuor's experience of the ocean was divinely exaggerated for maxiumum doom-y impact. Poor boy never stood a chance.
Wouldn't Tuor living an eleven lifespan interfere with the gift of Eru to mortals? I thought only Eru could change someone's life span, not something a Valar could do.
Yup -- it does seem that the Valar can, in some cases, modify or temporarily suspend the Gift of Men, but to take it away entirely would have to be an act of Eru, or else directly sanctioned by him. Theoretically Eru can break the rules whenever he wants, but whether he *would* have in this case causes much debate.
Thank 🐑!
They were just too based
Tuor and Idril lived forever truther, that's me!
3:45 the notion of Elves accepting mortality as some kind of punishment seems a little untolkien to me. After all, mortality ain't that bad. It is Eru's personal gift to humanity. Hence, it probably should not be scoffed upon. At least, not too loudly.
So is this why Lexi doesn't like Ulmo as much as most readers? Because he doesn't mark his spoilers? 😄
😂 I do appreciate Ulmo, but he is nothing if not meddlesome
@@GirlNextGondor: The idea of Ulmo being "heavy-handed" never occurred to me on my own: maybe because I'm more comfortable (imaginatively) with the idea of divine guidance (even though its role in real life has been problematic for me, not from being heavy-handed but from being the subject of delusions).
I've told you (Lexi) in private e-mails of my never-finished fanfic wherein Ulmo provides a similar piece of divine planning for a Second-Age quest by the returned Finrod. (Spoiler, if such a warning is needed for unfinished fanfic) In my version, Idril and Tuor turn out to have spent most of the Second Age asleep in the Tower of Pearl on the island of Gondobar, having got tangled up sailing among the islands just east of Aman (as in your headcanon mentioned in another of these comments). That long period of absence explains why there are different versions of their fate. But enough for now.
@@GirlNextGondor
He IS meddlesome.... in a good way.
Ulmo is to the Valar what Gandalf was to the wizards. The one that remembered his job. Or Ulmo was working for Eru, to care for his children, and Manwe was working for Tolkien, to make a good story.
rad!
what do you personally think happened to Tuor and Idril when they sailed west? Did Tuor really become immortal? There's no mention of Earendil meeting his parents in Aman, which always struck me as odd, but maybe it wasn't relevant to the overall story, so it perhaps wasn't mentioned
I like the idea of them being permanently stuck in the confusing labyrinth of islands around Valinor, perpetually sailing, doomed never to find rest... which might be a punishment for most people but they're actually fine with it. Tuor gets to spend plenty of time with Ulmo (and Osse and Uinen, one guesses), and Idril is sort of over the rest of her screwed-up kin and doesn't really believe in the idea of a permanent home anyway. Post-stellification, Earendil gets to drop in occasionally - or maybe Elwing just carries messages for them.
@@GirlNextGondor Pirates of the Caribbean vibes.
To this day, you might still stumble across a ghostly ship...
@@GirlNextGondor What you're telling me then is that Tuor becomes Odysseus for the rest of his life. That seems a bit depressing, but it makes things a bit neater imo, because Earendil and Elwing getting to Aman is a big deal, and I feel that impact is somehow lessened by Tuor and Idril being welcomed with open arms. What if Earendil, upon reaching Aman, pleads the Valar to allow Tuor and Idril in, and then thereafter they get to dwell in Aman?
@@GirlNextGondor
Interesting take on the fate of Tuor and Idril Celebrindal.
I have always assumed that Earendil never got to live in Valinor. I don't know if it was a punishment or not, but he was tasked with flying the Silmaril across the sky every night forever. I don't recall ever reading that he could hang out in Eldamar in the day time. I have always assumed he was permanently in that craft. On the other hand, Ewing can fly up and meet him, so maybe she could give his parents a message.
My understanding is that when Beren and Luthien were brought back to live out their days, Luthien was made human, which would make Dior fully human. Is this not correct? 🤔
I would think that IF Tuor was not granted Elfhood by Eru, the truth would have gotten to Middle Earth long before the end of the Third Age.
We must assume that when the Teleri were communicating with the Faithful of Numenor, all of the stories were revealed to them and they were all classically educated into those story traditions.
My point is that Tuor absolutely must have become an Elf and received immortal life.
It seems like the kind of legend that's unlikely to have emerged *totally* spontaneously. There's enough of a time lapse between when the Elves stopped visiting Numenor and when the legends were finally recorded that it might not be a completely accurate representation of what really happened. But I think the fact that the rumor exists at all means there must have been *something* unusual or notable about Tuor's fate.
Do you plan to cover Turin and Finduilas as well, short as their story was?
I have wondered about that as well. The Akallabeth describes the Numenoreans asking why they shouldn't be allowed in Aman, if their ancestor Earendil is... but Earendil is fully half Elven. Even if Tuor's immortality was just a legend after all, you'd think the Numenoreans would at least bring him up, if only for the messengers of Manwe to disabuse them -- after all the Kings of Numenor had more claim to Elvendom, by blood at least, than Tuor did!
@@GirlNextGondor I think you responded to the wrong message, as interesting as your thought was!
@@GirlNextGondor
"Earendil is 'fully' half elven?" 😆😂🤣
@@gundamofspitara7583
She could do Turin and Finduilas as well as Andreth and Aegnor and call it: tragic relationships of Arda.
Frodo is the most brave.
Algormancy!
✨⚡✨
First? ❤
Second
Third?@@goyonman9655
Okay, okay, but is it Gondolin or Gondoleen?
*cries over copy of Appendix E*
In Sindarin, "i" is pronounced as a long "e." In IPA, /iy/ is used for long "e."
🎉😊❤🎉❤😊🎉
Second/third
Are you schizophrenic? 🤪
gondolyn, not gondoleen- every time you mispronounced it, it broke my attention from your words
The appendix on language states that the vowel 'i' always has approximately the sound it has in the English word 'machine.' Since the last syllable is unstressed, a 'native' Sindarin speaker would, admittedly, likely make it a bit shorter in duration and less lax than I can manage, but it should rhyme more closely with 'machine' than with 'bin'.
Even Tolkien Gateway says "gone-doh-leen". Maybe check to make sure you are correct before correcting others.
Lexi is right about the "leen." If you understood the pronunciation of Sindarin, you would have cried about her pronunciation of "gone" rather than "goan." You look like a butthead calling someone out for pronunciation mistakes when you are the one who is mistaken.