@@OBEYTHEPYRAMID yeah, take a look at red dead redemption 2. It's about a gang of degenerates. But you actually come to like the main character (who had a far rougher childhood than here)
They already know, I don’t know why people don’t get this. It’s not them all the time. Amy hennig, the woman that wrote the legacy of Kane games and the Nosgoth lore and is one of the best stories in video games and she also done uncharted, so she can definitely write. It’s the higher ups saying “this is what we want, we want it like this, we want it like that, we want our politics in the game” And because it’s not their project and they are hired, they just write half assed pick up their cheque and they are gone. The writers don’t care if it’s a crap story and neither do the folk who commissioned the game because they obviously don’t care about lore and story telling or gameplay so long as their politics is in it.
It's kind of crazy how self-evident the creative differences that show up in this game are. Like many have said. It's almost like the writers didn't know the developers existed and vice versa
Twitter Tumblr same thing these days. The hardcore autistic people with weird hobbies stayed on Tumblr identifying as houseplants while the more aggressive tards migrated to Twitter.
Rule of thumb: If a character is absolutely awful and unlikable, but everyone in the story likes them and adores them, then it’s a self insert for a writer who’s an insufferable person. The game doesn’t paint Frey’s actions and character as bad, and everyone in the game loves her; that’s because the writer doesn’t see anything wrong with how Frey is. Just like Frey, the writer is living in a fantasy world.
almost noone in the story liked her.. except for the people who thought they could use her for personal gain and her mother.. or people she helped before they liked her. and 1 guy whos basically insane..
I mean, it's objectively true. Pretty much all of Link's dialogue in that game is facetiousness and puns. I mean the dude eats rocks on a dare, It's a good thing he keeps quiet.
Let's be real here, the moment she parkored her way out of a gang fight, in which the people had a gun, and they just watched her behind a chainlink fence, I was over it.
i mean yes they have a gun but were they willing to use it? i dont think so, and let's say they decided to shoot her, it wont be benifecial for them because they need her to fix her shit and get back the car ( listen i dont give a shit about the game but so many people make your argument and i think there so many more better ones to shit on the game )
@@mohamedaminebensoltana4198 so Im from a area where gangs and thugs are very common and I promise you if you have a gun and pull it and don’t shoot your just a bitch flexin, also at that point when real thugs get done over they tend to not think it’s smart to work with you again, that’s it, there’s a reputation to keep, that Hollywood shit is when your able to talk yourself out of it and to begin with you couldn’t take these “thugs” seriously anyway, nobody would send a little girl to do their work nor take her seriously, and if some little girl ever tried to come thuggin in cheetah print she’d get turned tf out so fast, so the scene altogether was terrible
It's funny because a normal person wouldn't have done that. In reality they'd run for their lives, they wouldn't stop and flip off their muggers to look cool. I hate this style of character writing, where the character is super unrealistic, snarky, and soulless. They don't express any emotions either, when they do, it's so contrived, "oh my dad died, I'm so depressed", that's literally marvel writing. They just spew snarky, sarcastic bullshit. It's so damn tiring. I wish writers would stop with this marvel level bullshit. Also it's a chainlink fence. Chain link fences can't really stop a bullet from going through it.
She feels like a choose your own story character where you get to pick the dialogue options, but she just keeps picking the most rude options possible at every turn, but the story still has to have her save everyone and be the good guy in the end so it just does a sudden 180 pretending there's been a character arch for all this change
As someone pointed out in other video, Forspoken feels like a game where you choose Dark Side decisions and still end up a Jedi. Or a game where you choose Renegade options and still end up a Paragon
The saddest part of the game was the point where Freya's friend snaps on her and tells her off as the shitty human being she is--- it was literally the perfect opportunity for Freya to actually grow as a person and get some genuine character development, but the fact that she snapped back and said "I don't give a shit if this world burns" was just really sad to me.
It showed her character, which is absolutely horrible. There should be a 3rd ending where cuff just anhilates Frey, he’d put her out of her misery, because clearly she’s miserable
It also speaks volume on the character of the writers. Either they are very bad people that thought being an selfish asshole is cool and relatable and doubling down on it when people directly tell you how your selfishness is hurting them is only making the character even COOLER. Or, they are just bad at their job and thought it was some kind of clever subversion or something. Whatever the reason is, they are just bad and need to never find a writing job ever again. Serving fries for a decade should teach them some humility.
An actual good response for the character, if they wanted someone who was actually funny and witty but a dickhead could be, "Thank you for the apology. Now, kindly, fuck off." *shoos them away*
The fact that i like every other side character who isn't frey says so much. Like can she not be an ass for 2 seconds? Audane literally saves u out of the tower yet she's so ungrateful for no apparent reason. And gawd every time she says "who even uses x word?" for the nth time. Just shut up.
The main story (Where there is any actual character development) is only maybe 10 hours at most if you take your time, good attempt at a useless correlation though
From what I’ve seen in clips and trailers about the protagonist, I feel like someone like that would actually quickly turn into a villain if given the kind of power that she has. It might’ve made it a more enjoyable game if they did that instead
If this had suddenly switched into a “character given too much power in a new world becomes the villain” type of story, it would have been soooo much better. Not sure how it could end, but it would have been interesting.
@Victoria Towns something tells me if that was the direction they went there would be a group of people calling the game racist for making a minority character a villain. But I agree it would have been a better story and potentially could have gone to tease a 2nd game where you are the biggest bad with even more power and a campaign to overrule the world. Pretty basic but still better than this dumpster fire
Her character is villainous in nature. I was rooting for the demon throughout the entire fight, like, her dying in the end should have been a legitimate ending.
45% but really didn't enjoy anything about the game .. very generous. Still a more realistic score than media outlets saying its bad and giving it a 7/10 but ya this appears to be a 2.5/10 to me
@@LucidTurtle he said that there is stuff to like about this Game, It just he didn't have a fun time overall. Plus It, at least, had potencial, and It doesn't have that many bugs or feels like absurdly incomplete ( although It definitly feels like pretty rushed and everything is puting there with a mountain of glue ), however, is awfully optimizate, a 3070 in order for the Game to run a 30 fps ? TF?
To those who would argue "If Frey was a man you would accept her attitude", I'd like to turn your attention to Alex from YIIK: A Postmodern RPG. Alex is written as a narcissistic asshole who is dismissive at best, outright cruel at worst to the people around him, friends included. Much like how Charlie describes Frey, Alex is meant to have an "arc" but he is an unlikeable tool up until the very last moments of the game in which he suddenly 180s and the audience is meant to like him now. Audiences HATED him. Many critics, reviewers and online personalities disliked how unlikeable he was, how he was a rude manchild who made other peoples' trauma about him. Alex shares a lot of the same negative and annoying traits we see in Frey. Having a Y chromosome does not mean people will automatically put up with you being an asshole, and being a woman does not mean people should automatically excuse you being an asshole. Bottom Line: Don't be mean to people.
I can’t help but feel like the “guy acts like a jerk” trope is more common and gets less flack compared to when it’s a female character instead, but it’s good to know that it doesn’t always seem to be the case. Personally, I hate when it’s handled the way it was in this game, regardless of the gender of the character. You can have a character be rude or abrasive and do it in a way that actually works, but this game handles it horribly. I completely agree with your last point, though. People just shouldn’t be rude to others. It shouldn’t be portrayed as cool or badass like it is in various forms of media.
@@blueflare3848 you're not wrong about it being skewed like that, but i also think the dynamic is more specific: "guy who acts like a jerk" characters tend to be better received when they have some sort of merit -- usually intelligence, like dr. house. alex had basically no merit; there was nothing witty, smart, or endearing about him ive seen some reviewers speculate that alex is even the result of the devs lashing out at the player, portraying the very act of enjoying stories as fundamentally selfish and a moral failing. there's... an astonishing amount of evidence to support it. he's not just designed to be unlikeable; he's designed to be _insulting_
Literally an indie RPG that no ones heard of. What about Kratos from God of War? Mike Thorton from Alpha Protocol? Mike and Trevor from GTA5? Plenty of asshole male main characters get a pass from high profile games.
I like how forespoken had to constantly remind everyone about what was happening towards the ending because everyone playing wasn’t paying attention to the story
tbh it was kinda obvious where the story was going, in most Isekai stories where you get yeeted to a world you dont know, its for a reason. and it was obvious freys reason was because she got dumped onto earth in the first place. how did i guess that before seeing the ending? the cuff.. magical items dont just attach to people in a lot of stories, unless its owned through a bloodline. im pretty sure the game did what it did like you said because the devs probably already knew people could care less for the story, most came for the combat which is super mid, its like FFXV but worse.
yeah after watching his 50 min video on the game I've started skipping cutscenes since guess what, it was too easy to pick up that Frey is related to one of the Tantas and I hate that I was right so early on
@@justsomeguy4422 Yo dont diss FFXV. At least that game better in alot of things like road trip with bros/Homie. And I dare say the story actually better if they dont cut up a lot of shit like princess and skipping to adult age
@@justsomeguy4422 Damn really? The combat definitely was dogshit (just holding the O/B button lmao). But aside from that, at least there was SOME shit to like in FFXV. Like your companions; Iggy (Ignis), Gladio, and Prompto. The massive spectacle of the boss battles, and the amazing soundtrack... That was it lol, but hey it still kept me playing
I think what happened is that they thought to write her like a tough New Yorker that grew up on the streets without any family. The problem is that she would be more stoic and hardened versus just a straight asshole, and the overall experience of a new reality would probably be welcoming to someone like that. From what I’ve seen this character would have absolutely no friends lol
Totally. Her behavior and backstory make no sense because if she told any of the gangsters to "shut the fuck up" like she tells Cuff 50 times she'd be dead by now.
As a person that wants to like this game, I wish it never had a story because it clearly overshadows the game itself. It's nuts to think this game probably would've been far better received if they just never had a writing staff from the start.
Shes a self insert of the writer. The writer is most assuredly a snarky asshole that believes being independent and strong means making shitty comments, jokes, and treating others like shit, while at the same time finding such actions as acceptable.
what makes Frey more insufrable is that she literally tries to out victimize the other girl, gets in bad terms with her and you never see her trying to make amends with her later on, or like she tries to apologize somehow, she just said "i dont care about your shitty world" and never tried to apologize for it.
I've heard women say they don't give a fuck about WW2. They don't care about one of the greatest conflicts in the history of man kind. Doesn't interest them. That's insane to me.
Frey reminds me of this girl I knew growing up that turned every struggle into a competition. "You think your day was bad? That's pathetic my day was way worse."
Imagine if this was a big ploy, a set up for a sequel where Frey is the villain. The satisfaction of beating a character that you've hated since the beginning of the previous game would be excellent.
What a waste of a first game though. You could have written a villain protagonist story that's actually fun. Like Light Yagami is a horrible person, but people actually like Death Note.
@@itizwhatitiz9560 Nier had a great story though, and was really just kinda mid and clunky as a game. But you do have a point. One bad game out the gate wont necessarily sink a series. I'm just saying you don't even need to do the villain protag in a way that will make a stinker of a story.
@@itizwhatitiz9560 What are you talking about"? Nier was great. Granted my dumb 13-year-old brain didn't comprehend that story when I first played it but the story is great, a little bumpy but fun all around with some concerning effects it's had on me questioning my existence.
It's actually like that good friend that got into drugs or crime 😂 I'd put it down to all the old people that worked there don't anymore and this is what the current work force is capable of.
Square (since the merger with Enix) has always been a hit and miss studio Great example is that DIRGE OF CERBERUS came out the same year as FF12 (my guilty pleasure and an underrated FF game imo) being 2006 FF7R was pretty great (had a bunch of flaws but still like an 8 imo) and given what we've seen of FF16, I'm pretty optimistic for it
@@hvyarms4496 granted I’m a very new ff fan compared to others but I think the recent ones were pretty decent. 16 looks pretty good too from what we’ve seen
I genuinely love how much emphasis Charles has when talking about how horribly abrasive the main character is. I'm sick and tired of seeing a writers thoughts and emotions come through in almost everything we see. I'm already depressed and angry enough without having to listen to utterly abysmal, school level dialogue.
@@dfasdasasdasdasdd it's utterly incredible how you don't think authors can make a story without putting their ideals and thoughts and end up RUINING the story.
@@Aramanela I didn’t say anything about his opinion of the game first of all and just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean the story is ruined. An author literally has full rights to make whatever they want and if you don’t like it, you don’t have to buy/consume it. I’m sure there will be plenty of other people that will enjoy it.
@@bigwinz Once again I never attacked the criticism of the game or their opinions of character at any point. I simply believe it’s crazy to think an author would not put their influence on something they create. I don’t know the author so I can’t really make a comment about Frey being a self insert or not but feel free to make that conclusion.
they were not the developer tho, they were just the publisher, Luminous production was behind the development but still SE giving the go ahead to publish it idk
Makes me appreciate how crazy it is for 10/10 games to exist. Everyone has to be firing on all cylinders, design, art, gameplay, programming, music, writing, etc. Several of these teams can put in their all and do amazing and still have a game flop because another team completely misses the mark.
You also have to account for subjectivity. A game can be well made and nail it for a certain audience but it will miss for others. I know for sure that not everyone thinks GoW Ragnarok and Elden Ring are 10/10 games.
@@gman7497 let's be honest, people who don't agree on the FACT that ER and GOWR are solid 10 are mostly seeking attention while nit picking flaws, the perfect game or piece of media doesn't exists, but when you get close enough thats a 10/10
@@armoredsquirrel946 I know I haven't tried GOW:R yet and I know it will be good. I guess GOW level of good. Alas, Horizon Zero Dawn for example is a way perfect prequel rather than Forbidden West due to expectations that weren't met. (It's just an example, I'm not hating on the sequel)
@Armored Squirrel I played a ton of all 3 Dark Souls games and Bloodborne and I don't like Elden Ring. I really try every couple months but I don't. I'm happy for From Soft but Code Vein was a huge upgrade to the Souls formula. Elden Ring uses all of the same attacks for the same weapons we've been using in the Souls game for years without adding anything new and fresh to combat. The Ashes of War were cool so you could change the 1 ability your weapon gets but it feels like just a gimmick. Then the open world and dungeons copy paste the same enemies over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. The world could have been significantly smaller and a much better game. Just because a game is popular doesn't mean that those that don't like it are crazy or haters. I tried really hard to like the 2018 GOW but I just didn't. Nothing about it was bad or even terrible. I'm never gonna say bad things about it except that it wasn't for me.
Welcome to New York...where those loving, accepting and nurturing democrats don't give 1 tiny shit about you...make sure to give them more of ur hard earned money though.
@@lettuceprime4922 Tell my how am I wrong? She should have gotten locked up. But reality is these Liberal judges Don't want criminals locked up they want them voting...Democrat. Just like all the illegals pouring into our country atm. Somehow this is right and legal to do? These are the same people SCREAMING RULE OF LAW, but don't follow the law themselves. Just the same DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO people as corporate America. Wake the fuck up.
@@douglasduda9826 gotta bring politic to everything don’t you? Yes, blame democrats for everything. They raise gas prices, they give you cancer and they made forspoken shit. Anything else?
@@zeitgeistx5239 Forspoken was developed by Luminous Productions (a video game studio in Japan as well as a division of Square), that doesn't necessarily mean they wrote the game.
Tales of the Abyss is a perfect story that has a protagonist that starts off insufferable but actually grows and becomes a good person, so much so that you are invested in the growth. Luke was an amazing character and is the best example writers could mimic and just forget that the growth of a character is very important.
I dunno I found Luke to be an insufferable self entitled jackass and then he became a self pitying suicidal jackass. I mean he did develop and eventually get a grip by the end and stopped being an ass and a baby but both earlier variations of him were just so annoying and if it wasn't for the host of other great characters I don't think I would have enjoyed Abyss as much as I did. That said I agree it's leaps and bounds above Forspoken even with my gripes.
For those curious about why the writing is so cringe. The two main writers have never worked on videogames. One was primarily an actor, Todd Stashwick. The other was Allison Rymer whose main feat was writing for the god awful YA TV Show, "Shadowhunters." If you're thinking Amy Hennig and Gary Whitta, they were only credited for Story Concept (specifically Story Concept, and Original Concept respectively). This means they most likely wrote a foundational roadmap/outline for how the story would play out and its setting. Amy and Gary's names also pop up after the montage part of the credits, whereas the former two were credited first AND during the montage. Kinda hints how much involvement the actual experienced and bigger named writers had with the content if I were to say anything about it. Gary Whitta and especially Amy Hennig were effectively just big names for marketing despite not being the main writers. Similar to how George R.R. Martin states that he really just wrote the foundational lore/outline of the Elden Ring world while Miyazaki fleshed everything out. Yet, you saw George R.R. Martin plastered everywhere to almost sell the idea that he had a direct and constant hand in development.
The only difference is that Miyazaki actually took the idea Martin introduced, and actually made something amazing. He probably just needed help on the different multiple contrasting factions through the game. Here, they took nothing from the outline provided by Amy and Gary. Just as arrogant as their dumbass protagonist themself 😂
The game definitely had some good concepts, even if they were basic fantasy vibes but hiring an actor and a bad YA writer for the job was a terrible idea. This explanation makes perfect sense thank you.
@@zrixie7695 It's a YA book adaptation of "The Mortal Instruments." My ex-gf, who loved the books, convinced me to watch it with her. 1st Season is completely dog and you can check the ratings on that. She said it got a lot better, but that a lot of changes in direction were made that eventually caused her to drop the show entirely and never mention it again. From what I remember, the 1st Season caused a crap ton of ppl and fans alike to drop it. Which is why I doubt many have heard of it or even know it continued with 2 more seasons as I remember there were constant talks of it at risk of getting canceled while it was aired. Either way, Allison Rymer only wrote 3 episodes from that show. She's still a complete newbie. So I'm unsure if the show is actually good or not cuz I was part of the crowd that got filtered out by S1. Doubly unsure if it's actually good because it could also be one of those shows where its ratings are inflated since it comes from a YA book series targeted at teen girls, i.e. an echo chamber. Which could mean the hardcore fans might be propping it up through a rose tinted lens while also being the only ones watching as again, S1 is an extremely effective filter.
To be fair. Some Teenagers are moody, rebellious and try-hard to a point of Validation..... the fact that THIS character doesn't change at all after being thrown into a world of magic and fantasy and doesn't change from it. Isn't realistic at all.
I think a for- sure takeaway from this is that lots of gamers are adults in their 30s and 40s and we don't necessarily want to be in the shoes of snotty know-it all kids. There needs to be recognition in the games industry that the demographic for triple A games has matured and maybe the writing should as well.
Saddie Addler in RDR2 is my favourite example of a strong female character who's actually well written. Her strength doesn't come at the expense of everyone around her
EXACTLY. Frey I absolutely fucking hate, but Saddie Addler? I would marry her... then again I don't think she would marry any other man again after the whole ordeal...
Her husband killed, her house burned, possibly raped by O'driscolls and then saved by the Van der Linde gang...Of course she's going to shift her perspective of life and crave her revenge. All RDR2 characters are greatly written.
Her revenge does come with some expense. She tended to have impulse problems which arose like 3 or 4 times through the game. One time specifically getting Arthur caught by an enemy. She is also kind of a Mary Sue because out of nowhere she is able to shoot like a top gunslinger. I wish she had a tad bit more of development in the middle for everything they try to deliver with her.
I seriously hate that argument about people hating female protagonists and I'm glad you tackled that Charlie. People don't hate Frey because she's a woman. People hate Frey because she's an asshole. She's unlikeable and insufferable. There's plenty of amazing female protagonists out there like Lara Croft, Samus Aran, Aloy, etc. Protagonists being female isn't the issue, the writing is.
I like how the game actively tells you to not play the game by having the main character constantly remind you that she doesn't want to do any of this either.
You see the same issue on Velma when it comes to writing. You have writers with terrible character who believe they have it all together and they write out of their own toxic awfulness.
Yeah, it's showing not just a talent issue with modern writes but also a morality issue, especially when these characters are continually panned yet they keep making them
@@archbishopofthecrusades9579 I think it’s always been this way. Looking back every generation says the prior was bad. I think nepotism just goes too far in artistic avenues which is a crazy concept to begin with
I don't think that's exactly the same situation. Apparently The creator of the show even said she didnt want to make the show but wb said if she wanted to make a show she had to use one of their existing ip's. I could be be wrong tho but I saw people saying that on twitter
@@TallTitanTV ...why not just wait for the release and buy it then? What is there to lose by not frontloading your cash on a product you know nothing about?
A good female protagonist I don't see mentioned often is Bayonetta from the series of the same name. She's very charming, witty, elegant, and yet has a lot of depth to her with her backstory and her parents, which is used very well. Also, she does go through a slight character arc in the first game, where she is basically all on her own spare for one or two allies, but over the course of the game learns to trust people, trust herself, and her new friends, and becomes very caring and protective of the people close to her. She's witty and has some funny dialouge but isn't constantly talking. She's quiet and serious when needed. It's not that hard to make a good female protagonist lol
Probably because her whole trope is her powers make her naked. You can’t really spin it as her having character progression when she’s designed to be sexualized.
What's crazy too is that at the end of the game you have a choice to pick two portals, either to stay in Athia and fight the final boss, or take a portal back home to NYC. If you choose the latter, it ends with LITERALLY a fifteen-second cutscene of you walking down the street with your cat. Like, that's it, lmao. Feels so half assed
If you wait for the cutscene & credits to end, it actually takes you directly to the start menu for Stray, the award winning cat simulator. Only on PS5 though.
Hearing you talk about unlikable protagonists reminds me of my first playthrough of Tales of the Abyss. I straight up hated how obnoxious the protagonist was at the beginning, but they had one of the strangest ways of making that makes sense and gave him a very well done redemption.
I don’t know how there are still writers who think, “let’s write the main character so that everyone hates her” like did they actually think she will be popular?
They aren’t really doing this for actual fans of RPG’s or games as a whole, they could care less, kinda like how the Rings Of Power producers don’t give a damn about LOTR fans…sadly
Its like an unconscious attempt to generate a self-fulfilling prophecy. A lot of people in Hollywood try to push that no one likes female protagonists just because they are women, so they create horrible female characters so they can keep complaining about how people don't like them.
What are you talking about? She was so badass and didn't take shit from anyone. All girls wish to be like her smh people love to complain about female protagonists. (Satire)
i think an AI would do a 10x times better job than this. an AI would see what makes a game good statistically and just make it make it good based on that
"A lot of shows and games make their protagonist mean without giving them a redemption arc" The issue is that you're not supposed to see that as the protagonist being mean. You're supposed to be on the protagonist's side. This comes from just a disconnect between the writers and actual human interaction.
There was a part in the game where I thought to myself. If they just committed to the character to be an unlikable jerk and made the dialogue funny, they actually may have had a good character and a potentially good arc for them. Particularly when she was having the "pity party". That could have been a moment where the protag becomes a little more self aware and owns that they are a prick.
I was hoping the she became the villain. Like the shitty character could’ve had purpose in the end. Imagine ending that world then final cutscene is her going home hinting at a sequel
That’s what I would’ve thought too. When the other character calls her out, it could have been a wake-up call for her. It could’ve been the point where she realizes how awful she has treated people and tries to change.
I really love how the developers of the game even came out and said you should just listen to a podcast or so while playing the game, cause there really ain't a lot to the game. Since if the devs themself say that, that just shows how unsatisfied they are with it
I feel like saying "female protagonist" or "male protagonist" is a problem in itself. A protagonist is just that, the main character. The gender shouldn't matter, the character should
TLOU 2 has a female protagonist who you can even disagree with every decision she makes, and yet you still understand her and care about her. No protagonist needs to be perfect, but you need to at least understand them. edit: and i wasn't even including the female antagonist in that game, who is ALSO understandable. writers are just lazy as fuck
A Plague Tale was written by a French guy, they still do "old style" writing over there (where you actually have to earn the viewer's sympathy, not just demand it from the start). An American writer would have turned it into an undigestible borefest.
The best example of an amazingly written character that you're not suppose to like but then over time it changes, is bojack horseman. That show hit that nail perfectly
Absolutely, Bojack was amazing because he was terrible from the get-go but humanized more than any human character in spite of all his flaws. And then there are shows like Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Archer, and Venture Bros that sort of make you dislike characters even more over time, but that's intended by design. But I don't get the impression that the Forspoken devs were going for either approach 💀
Classic British comedies also have characters (often the main ones) you're not supposed to like, but they're done well and they usually suffer the consequences. Blackadder, Bottom, The Young Ones, Red Dwarf, Fawlty Towers etc. I can't imagine making a video game about Arnold Rimmer and trying to play him off as somebody you're supposed to root for.
Tony Soprano too. You want to root and sympathize for them. You want them to change but you realize at the end of the show that they won’t (or choose not to) change.
This for me is Re:zero. At the start he was one of the most infuriating mc I'd ever seen and it took me a month to finish the first six episodes. And then in 6 episode he became a character you only hope for him to be truly happy
I think it may have been more disappointment than insincerity. There really was potential here in the world and combat visuals like he mentioned, but god damn, it really did not pull it all together.
A rule that many modern writers fail to understand: Making your female character a sarcastic know it all doesn't make her likable in the slighest. It only makes her more annoying and unbearable to connect with.
@@FervorGaming Because without it the game will fail. Same with basically any media. Why would i want to watch or play as a rude AF character that i just want to punch. Like fine, if you want them to be rude and unlikeable then make that a big point in the story so you are actively rooting against the character you play as. However in games like this, all it does is make the game annoying to play. Its literally the exact same scenario as the new Velma show, she is so fucking unlikable it makes the show unbearable to watch,
Fragile from death stranding is an example of an awesome female character. She's strong and gets shit done but also vulnerable and has her weak points. I don't see why so many writers these days think making a girl super strong and with a really annoying attitude makes them somehow a good lead character. Probably a result of these people living on Twitter and thinking that having a clap back attitude is so cool. Meanwhile it's just cringy in real life and not realistic at all
Horizon Zero Dawn sold millions of copies and has a woman protagonist. An incredibly strong one at that. There are in fact weirdos complaining about her being a woman but the vast majority of people regard them as misogynistic assholes. And Freya in God of War and Ragnarok is another example of a great character that is a woman, is strong and independent, incorporates aspects of womanhood into the story, all without making her unlikable even when she is an antagonist at some point in the story.
It's because of feminism. They feel like they cannot portray a woman as having any bad qualities or appearing weak due to the "patriarchy" so they make them boss bitches
@@tave6202 The girl in Horizon Zero Dawn sucks. It is a common opinion that she sucks. And not because she's insufferable, but because if the twist at the end of the game was that she was also a robot, I wouldn't even have been faintly surprised. Jesus what a boring character
@@grundlewizard1775 I have played both Horizon games and I am in like three different subreddits for the games. I have no idea what twist you are talking about. And also, Aloy is widely beloved among Horizon fans.
There’s so many better examples of strong female protagonists with actual struggles and developments over Frey. Amicia De Rune is a more recent one who genuinely goes through so much in the name of love for her brother and even occasionally loses herself to the violence, bloodlust, and horrible people in the world in a believable and well-written way.
I like how the developers say the game will take 30 hours skipping everything and 70 hours with all the sidequests but then chad Charlie arrives and does it in 8.
and that was on hard while doing some dungeons. you could probably run through it in 5 hours without trying. what's funny is that no glitch speedrun probably won't be that much faster either, since most of the time spent on this game has you waiting forcefully.
Man, it's crazy that Square used to be THE storytellers of videogames. If it said Square on the box, 99% of the time you knew the story was absolute heat. Sad that it's been so long since they've had that reputation
SE is still pretty good. But it's not the 90s anymore, the company have many ongoing projects. Some will hit, and some will miss. I already knew before even playing the game exactly what kind of game this would be. Bad story, fun gameplay. And sadly if your game had a bad story/character, no matter how fun it might be, if you can't buy into the character you play as, the game just won't win people over.
Nah Square's executive branch has been absolutely moronic for the past several years. There's no mistaking it. Remember when they blamed all their problems on their Western studios and then sold them off for a hilariously undervalued $300 million? Yeah.
Having an insufferable main character in a game is absolutely a deal breaker. You spend the entire game as this character, you can't have them be this unlikeable.
Tales of Abyss does a wonderful job with having an insufferable MC- for the first half of the game he’s a massive jackass and it’s impossible to like him, but by the second half he’s a completely different person who both learned his lesson and changed for the better. THAT is how you do it
@@ThaTyphon I’ll admit it’s been ages since I played Abyss, but I remember him being really unlikeable for the first half. Still, seeing him change and be better made his character work, and justified his earlier self in the story
@@thetrashcanman7537 Dude their games are a coin flip, they've completely crashed the Life is Strange series and the only thing more disappointing than KH3 was finding out Santa doesn't exist.
@@leoncoben6983 that’s two games? Both for kids which I am not they make great games and have a bunch of classics under their belt I don’t care about some spin off garbage and some disney game people were expecting too much out of
What I find weird and a bit fascinating about the game is how it has a very American-created opening and main character, but the world's design and even the animations during cutscenes look so Japanese-made.
@@ea_naseer Or created/written in France, animated in Korea, dubbed in America. Happens with a surprising amount of cartoons, especially during the 80s and 90s.
I woke up and was so drowzy and did my daily bad habit of playing yt videos first thing before I even get out of bed, i was fading in and out of sleep, but Charlie's vitriol and sheer ability of tearing this game just woke me up
I watched my buddy play the first couple hours and I literally said "the MCU has ruined dialogue". It's crazy how much recent media suffers from the writing staff being detached, like they do the bare minimum when it comes to the art of writing and what they do is all just... Bad.
MCU, Netflix, Legit 90% of commercials you see on TV…. All of the media. It’s been going on for a while now and people are just that stupid to ever realize what’s actually going on.
5:21 What Charlie said is valid. People loved the hell out of Life Is Strange because the game had a compelling story with writing that made sense. The biggest complaints from the players of Forspoken is the janky writing that repeats itself, contradicts itself and generally makes the player lose interest. ... I said the story was compelling and the writing made sense. Never did I say LIS was godtier while I sat on the crapper typing away. The reason I picked this example up for comparison was because of the similarly flawed characters in each title - Dontnod just did a better job of framing their story, and you had the choice to kill off Chloe in the end. None of her bullshit, clean slate for LIS 2 to start from.
@@ags8507 right? Only reason it was popular was the way the gameplay was framed, the quirky writing and the interesting power it revolves around, people gravitate to art project style games
It's really ironic that you said that, considering the fact that Chloe is literally Frey! Both of them are boring, unlikable, egocentric and rude for no reason characters, that you can't really sympathize with 🤭
@@ags8507 LiS had janky dialog no doubt (Because it was made by French people) but it made up for it in its story and characters. Pretty much every sequel and prequel after that was just dog water
@@MerryTheJerryKun but he really didn't have to do that. Frey could care less about what he had to say in general, so he could have just stayed silent or talked about other things, but he chose to call her out on being a bitch.
My favorite character of all time is Zuko from Avatar, so yeah it's entirely possible to have a character start as an asshole and become a likable character, they just really didn't know how or didn't even think they needed to. The scene with her and the other girl trying to out-victim her is so fucking weird, cause you're like "Surely this is where she'll think about how she's been acting" but no, she doubles down on it, and then in such a short time later has the audacity to say "I thought I was finally going to be the hero, but the rug gets pulled out from under me again, like always." Just, ugiurgshgh
She literally is the hero. Shes literally waging war against evil in there world. You guy are acting like she says that and then just walks away and the world is consumed by evil. A character can say something and show that they didn't mean it by their actions.
@@Theyungcity23 That’s the most annoying thing to do for like 60 hours or however long this game can be with it being an.. RPG? “You’re so fucking annoying” *gives you something* but we’re still friends? no the fuck we ain’t.
I always like to think of Luke from Tales of the Abyss as a good example of how to make an unlikable character develop into a very likable one over the course of the game. Also Yoko from the Twelve Kingdoms anime is another really good example.
Forspoken and Velma being released so close together made it worse in my opinion. Two completely different mediums suffering from exactly the same problems
@@derekgardner1861 nah most people regardless of politics dislike velma and forspoken, it suffers from the asshole protagonist thing that's a pale attempt at copying marvel characters
When I first saw this game knowing nothing about it, I was super excited. I figured the dialogue would sound better then in the trailers. It looked amazing, the magic combat and parkour seemed really cool. Then more stuff kept getting shown, with every new thing I saw the less excited I was, and when I played the demo I was glad I never preordered it.
Why don't they have a shy protagonist who doesn't believe in themselves then comes out of their shell and makes friends along the way. Yeno something people can relate to
Honestly they just as well could have made Frey interesting/likeable with her initial setup too. Having her be a cynical asshole at first that learns to enjoy the beauty of the world around her. Learn to love the generous people that believe in her. Like this ain't the most original character or anything, but it shows good growth, a character that can start off as narcissistic becoming a defender for the people because she truly loves what those people represent is a very solid character journey. God even at the end with what Charlie was talking about, they easily could have written her character to remember her past and the sorrow she felt by her hard upbringing and sympathize with the girl instead, but reassuring her that she still has her. Holy shit how did they flop this so bad 💀
The _"you wouldn't mind Frey if she was male"_ is so dumb because it wasn't that long ago since people collectively hated a self-centered, snarky, immature male narcissist with awful dialogue that never truly grows as a person as the main character of a videogame. But then again, I shouldn't be really that surprised that no one remembers YIIK in current year. I expect Forspoken to be the same in about a year or so.
to be fair, i dont think compareing big budget triple aaa dev FORSPOKEN to small indie game crowed sourced with youtube VAs YIIK is a very fair comperison. But I do get the point you are making.
@@huntsman0865 I have to disagree. Money does not play a part in the ability to write a character to be likable. If it was anything regarding visuals or even mechanics of the game, you would have a point. But on the face of a halfway decent character (or lack thereof in both cases) money is near meaningless.
@kiracaroso hire better writers? Hire someone proven and professional? What are you talking about "money doesn't effect writing." Of course it does. Go look at a well respected/like peice of media, look at the credits and poach some writers.
I think growing up under extremely difficult circumstances like the main character did is a good excuse for them to be an ass in the beginning of the game, but yeah they need to have some development at some point. I actually liked the conversation between her and the other girl when that girl's dad died. It started out like it was going to be a conversation that made the protagonist think and realize how selfish they were being, but at the end of it she was just like, "Alright, yup, screw this place. I'm out." It was the perfect opportunity for some growth and they just hit the snooze button on that.
@@iamepic6726 well and some people grow up with a silver spoon in their mouth and end up as serial killers. Everyone's different, but if you want to write a character that people can connect to then they need to develop from that asshole in the beginning to an actual hero by the end. And at the end she says she THOUGHT she could be a hero, but all of her actions are about abandoning the people that need her so she can go back to her crappy life. It's a lot of tell, don't show when it comes to her changing as a character, what little she did.
@@NotSoSerious69420 yeah, as soon as you say "Hey this girl has no idea who her parents are," and then she gets whisked away to another world, having her parents be from that world is like...the most obvious thing ever. I laughed so hard when Charlie straight guessed, "IS THE DRAGON HER MOM?"
I've never met a real person that dislikes a game solely because of the gender of the main character but twitter will have you believe that its literally 100% of the people criticizing games.
His ratings are ALWAYS generous. It's honestly pretty pathetic to have him rate stuff on the same scale than IGN, where god awful stuff is just bellow 50%
@@NeroV1L3 The visual? You mean "generic realistic standard of current year"? Or the artstyle? ie "generic wireframe effect and particle number 1554545"? Hey, wana talk about how dogshit the optimisation is maybe while we are here? No? Mkay. And as for the gameplay, give me a break. Even you can't call it any better than "okayish" and even that is pretty generous.
@@SafetyKitten you'd be wrong my guy, I personally loved the game. Yeah the dialogue is a bit cringe in a few parts but the game isn't bad. The combat slaps as well.
unlikeable or evil protagonists can work so beautifully when given any sense of growth, see Luke fon Fabre from Tales of The Abyss or even Zuko from Avatar, there was no reason for the writers to have done what they did to Frey's character
Never played Tales of the Abyss but Zuko changed over the course of like 3 seasons. That's why it felt good / believable. If they had actually made someone so angry and traumatized change so much over the course of the game's what, several days? It would have been an even worse game IMO. It's shitty and lazy, but her turnaround at the end kinda makes sense because they explained that the reason for her trauma wasn't what she thought it was.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Fun fact: you don't have to be narcissistic just to be a strong and independent person. I don't know when these writers will learn
Well if the characters can't be narcissistic then how will the writers ever be able to self insert themselves into the story?
@@OBEYTHEPYRAMID yeah, take a look at red dead redemption 2. It's about a gang of degenerates. But you actually come to like the main character (who had a far rougher childhood than here)
Probably doesn't help that the writers aren't likely strong or independent themselves
I wouldn’t be surprised if the writers were women
They already know, I don’t know why people don’t get this.
It’s not them all the time.
Amy hennig, the woman that wrote the legacy of Kane games and the Nosgoth lore and is one of the best stories in video games and she also done uncharted, so she can definitely write.
It’s the higher ups saying “this is what we want, we want it like this, we want it like that, we want our politics in the game”
And because it’s not their project and they are hired, they just write half assed pick up their cheque and they are gone.
The writers don’t care if it’s a crap story and neither do the folk who commissioned the game because they obviously don’t care about lore and story telling or gameplay so long as their politics is in it.
"Marvel having sex with Twitter's most annoying comedian"
Charlie truly has a way with words
i assumed he meant elon musk for some reason
@@nagiri3833damn, you must think of him in your sleep
@@nagiri3833 really? Empowered edgy teenage girl that fights the power and you think of musk who makes electric cars?
@@nagiri3833 Elon's not a comedian tho?
wait, does Twitter actually have comedians on it? ......please tell me it doesn't. Please...
It's kind of crazy how self-evident the creative differences that show up in this game are. Like many have said. It's almost like the writers didn't know the developers existed and vice versa
Writers were like woke “funny” dialogue, devs were like fuck earth
@I-ABUSE-ANIMALS-LMFAO what???
@@SisterCaliGal just downvote them and ignore them. they're bots and trolls.
Writers were American and devs were Japanese. Kinda explains the weirdness there. Well it did work out really well for Elden ring, so I dunno.
I can do the wrist band stuff
Frey trying to outvictim the victim is such a typical Twitter move. 😂
Twitter Tumblr same thing these days. The hardcore autistic people with weird hobbies stayed on Tumblr identifying as houseplants while the more aggressive tards migrated to Twitter.
Its not that Frey is like someone on Twitter, its that someone whose mainly on twitter wrote Frey
@@wisemankugelmemicus1701 don't give them ideas
Typical woke character writing
@@strygwrhas literally nothing to do with being woke, weirdo. This isn’t a woke game just because it stars a woman
lightning mcqueen from when he gets to radiator springs to the end of the movie is a prime example of what should’ve happened with Frey
When a talking car from a 15 year old animated movie is a better protagonist
lmao I love this comparison and agree.
Yeah lightning McQueen should've been the protagonist of this game
that's a really solid example, agreed
man I loved cars
Rule of thumb: If a character is absolutely awful and unlikable, but everyone in the story likes them and adores them, then it’s a self insert for a writer who’s an insufferable person. The game doesn’t paint Frey’s actions and character as bad, and everyone in the game loves her; that’s because the writer doesn’t see anything wrong with how Frey is.
Just like Frey, the writer is living in a fantasy world.
God you’re right
It's funny how both Velma and Forspoken have almost the exact same issues regarding character writing
almost noone in the story liked her.. except for the people who thought they could use her for personal gain and her mother.. or people she helped before they liked her. and 1 guy whos basically insane..
How the heck is a name like Amy Hennig attached to this trash?
She's usually a great writer.
@@soupgirl1871 and that's only the beginning of shity unlacable characters and protagonists in movies and games
Honestly the best character trait for a video game protagonist is what link has, “he never speaks because he doesn’t want to embarrass himself”.
I remember stumbling upon that lore in BOTW years ago and it made his silence so much more admirable, Frey could learn a thing or two lol
windwaker link probably talks like sonic, but nobody knows so nobody cares.
I mean, it's objectively true. Pretty much all of Link's dialogue in that game is facetiousness and puns. I mean the dude eats rocks on a dare, It's a good thing he keeps quiet.
I always thought he just had nothing to say
@@cajbajthewhite4889 damn didnt have to flame him
"It's like shes trying to outvictim her."
So shes basically written like most Twitter users.
I think that’s exactly the problem with this game.
Let's be real here, the moment she parkored her way out of a gang fight, in which the people had a gun, and they just watched her behind a chainlink fence, I was over it.
i mean yes they have a gun but were they willing to use it? i dont think so, and let's say they decided to shoot her, it wont be benifecial for them because they need her to fix her shit and get back the car ( listen i dont give a shit about the game but so many people make your argument and i think there so many more better ones to shit on the game )
@@mohamedaminebensoltana4198 woah woah! You are asking people to put in a little common sense?! Can't do that on the internet.
Heaven forbid something unreal happens in a video game or movie you sound stupid.
@@mohamedaminebensoltana4198 so Im from a area where gangs and thugs are very common and I promise you if you have a gun and pull it and don’t shoot your just a bitch flexin, also at that point when real thugs get done over they tend to not think it’s smart to work with you again, that’s it, there’s a reputation to keep, that Hollywood shit is when your able to talk yourself out of it and to begin with you couldn’t take these “thugs” seriously anyway, nobody would send a little girl to do their work nor take her seriously, and if some little girl ever tried to come thuggin in cheetah print she’d get turned tf out so fast, so the scene altogether was terrible
It's funny because a normal person wouldn't have done that. In reality they'd run for their lives, they wouldn't stop and flip off their muggers to look cool. I hate this style of character writing, where the character is super unrealistic, snarky, and soulless. They don't express any emotions either, when they do, it's so contrived, "oh my dad died, I'm so depressed", that's literally marvel writing. They just spew snarky, sarcastic bullshit. It's so damn tiring. I wish writers would stop with this marvel level bullshit. Also it's a chainlink fence. Chain link fences can't really stop a bullet from going through it.
I admire their audacity to have sequel hook scene after credits. It reminds me of Green Lantern.
🤮 please tell me you're joking
@@SlackerMagician someone doesn’t understand sarcasm 🤣
Super Mario Bros and Ghostbusters 2016 had a sequel hook too. Got to admire the optimism.
@@TheMasterOfCeremony They meant "please tell me you're joking" as in no way there's a sequel.
@@TheMasterOfCeremony wow is that a catchphrase of your or something? its just so out of place
She feels like a choose your own story character where you get to pick the dialogue options, but she just keeps picking the most rude options possible at every turn, but the story still has to have her save everyone and be the good guy in the end so it just does a sudden 180 pretending there's been a character arch for all this change
As someone pointed out in other video, Forspoken feels like a game where you choose Dark Side decisions and still end up a Jedi.
Or a game where you choose Renegade options and still end up a Paragon
going full renegade run.
Dialogue option: Hello...
"Hello, fucker. I'm going to murder you and your whole family!"
Goes from being the most narcissistic arrogant bitch ever to an entirely different person in 5 minutes
Maybe my personality sucks but I find her thus-far incessant attitude kinda funny.
The saddest part of the game was the point where Freya's friend snaps on her and tells her off as the shitty human being she is--- it was literally the perfect opportunity for Freya to actually grow as a person and get some genuine character development, but the fact that she snapped back and said "I don't give a shit if this world burns" was just really sad to me.
It showed her character, which is absolutely horrible. There should be a 3rd ending where cuff just anhilates Frey, he’d put her out of her misery, because clearly she’s miserable
Freya is the vanir goddess
@@sir_vaughn2018 Lol that's so true he must still have GoW Ragnarok on the brain or something
@@oldpersonalaccount yea thats what got me it just suddenly switched to her wanting to save the day even tho nothing was learned
It also speaks volume on the character of the writers.
Either they are very bad people that thought being an selfish asshole is cool and relatable and doubling down on it when people directly tell you how your selfishness is hurting them is only making the character even COOLER.
Or, they are just bad at their job and thought it was some kind of clever subversion or something.
Whatever the reason is, they are just bad and need to never find a writing job ever again. Serving fries for a decade should teach them some humility.
I like how Frey’s friend says “sorry to interrupt your self-pity party”
And Frey responds: Yeah, you should be!
An actual good response for the character, if they wanted someone who was actually funny and witty but a dickhead could be, "Thank you for the apology. Now, kindly, fuck off." *shoos them away*
The fact that i like every other side character who isn't frey says so much. Like can she not be an ass for 2 seconds? Audane literally saves u out of the tower yet she's so ungrateful for no apparent reason. And gawd every time she says "who even uses x word?" for the nth time. Just shut up.
👐"character writing" 🙌
“We are aware of our character being a whiny, self centred asshole, now love her or you’re racist”- writing team, probably.
"made for a modern audience" is all they need to say for us to expect such bullshit.
My favorite part was Charlie guessing the plot twist 1 hour and 30 minutes into the game.
If I had the chance to play a modern triple A game where the ending wasn’t the most obvious conclusion I’d be so happy.
This is why Driver: San Francisco is the best game. It tells you the twist right at the start.
what was the plot twist?
@@invigale The dragon boss fight at the start of the game is the main characters mother.
@@katon.9893 Also the cuff is the bad guy
In the new Puss In Boots movies, Puss has more character development in 30 minutes than Frey does in 30 hours.
we need a moist meter for the new Puss in boots movie
The main story (Where there is any actual character development) is only maybe 10 hours at most if you take your time, good attempt at a useless correlation though
@@the-annoyinator name checks out
@@maallos334mi8 No shit??
@@the-annoyinatorit's crazy how little this changes their point
Charlie usually sounds dead inside, but damn does it sound like this game dug him up and put him right back in the ground 💀💀
This game robbed his grave but he ain't even dead yet
A+ comment
Lmao, watch his playthrough stream. The man is in anguish at the end of the game
@@asain3586 I can’t watch anyone play this game, every line is an attack on my psyche
@@delusion5867 *[Forspoken (Rare)(Cursed)]*
*Cost:* $70
*Effect:* _Willpower_ +10% but drain 0.1-2.5 percent of _Sanity_ every second when equipped.
From what I’ve seen in clips and trailers about the protagonist, I feel like someone like that would actually quickly turn into a villain if given the kind of power that she has. It might’ve made it a more enjoyable game if they did that instead
If this had suddenly switched into a “character given too much power in a new world becomes the villain” type of story, it would have been soooo much better. Not sure how it could end, but it would have been interesting.
@Victoria Towns something tells me if that was the direction they went there would be a group of people calling the game racist for making a minority character a villain. But I agree it would have been a better story and potentially could have gone to tease a 2nd game where you are the biggest bad with even more power and a campaign to overrule the world. Pretty basic but still better than this dumpster fire
Going the Infamous route? That was fucking good
Her character is villainous in nature. I was rooting for the demon throughout the entire fight, like, her dying in the end should have been a legitimate ending.
@@jeffpulohanan9226 ayyyy Infamous is amazing
I think this is one of the most generous moist meter scores.
ngl I expected lower
agreed
45% but really didn't enjoy anything about the game .. very generous. Still a more realistic score than media outlets saying its bad and giving it a 7/10 but ya this appears to be a 2.5/10 to me
@@LucidTurtle he said that there is stuff to like about this Game, It just he didn't have a fun time overall. Plus It, at least, had potencial, and It doesn't have that many bugs or feels like absurdly incomplete ( although It definitly feels like pretty rushed and everything is puting there with a mountain of glue ), however, is awfully optimizate, a 3070 in order for the Game to run a 30 fps ? TF?
For real game had way more problems than the dialogue
To those who would argue "If Frey was a man you would accept her attitude", I'd like to turn your attention to Alex from YIIK: A Postmodern RPG. Alex is written as a narcissistic asshole who is dismissive at best, outright cruel at worst to the people around him, friends included. Much like how Charlie describes Frey, Alex is meant to have an "arc" but he is an unlikeable tool up until the very last moments of the game in which he suddenly 180s and the audience is meant to like him now.
Audiences HATED him. Many critics, reviewers and online personalities disliked how unlikeable he was, how he was a rude manchild who made other peoples' trauma about him. Alex shares a lot of the same negative and annoying traits we see in Frey. Having a Y chromosome does not mean people will automatically put up with you being an asshole, and being a woman does not mean people should automatically excuse you being an asshole.
Bottom Line: Don't be mean to people.
I can’t help but feel like the “guy acts like a jerk” trope is more common and gets less flack compared to when it’s a female character instead, but it’s good to know that it doesn’t always seem to be the case. Personally, I hate when it’s handled the way it was in this game, regardless of the gender of the character. You can have a character be rude or abrasive and do it in a way that actually works, but this game handles it horribly. I completely agree with your last point, though. People just shouldn’t be rude to others. It shouldn’t be portrayed as cool or badass like it is in various forms of media.
I like Alex. He is a shithead and it's entertaining. I guess I'll like forspoken if it's as avangarde
@@blueflare3848 you're not wrong about it being skewed like that, but i also think the dynamic is more specific: "guy who acts like a jerk" characters tend to be better received when they have some sort of merit -- usually intelligence, like dr. house. alex had basically no merit; there was nothing witty, smart, or endearing about him
ive seen some reviewers speculate that alex is even the result of the devs lashing out at the player, portraying the very act of enjoying stories as fundamentally selfish and a moral failing. there's... an astonishing amount of evidence to support it. he's not just designed to be unlikeable; he's designed to be _insulting_
Literally an indie RPG that no ones heard of. What about Kratos from God of War? Mike Thorton from Alpha Protocol? Mike and Trevor from GTA5? Plenty of asshole male main characters get a pass from high profile games.
Well said
I like how forespoken had to constantly remind everyone about what was happening towards the ending because everyone playing wasn’t paying attention to the story
tbh it was kinda obvious where the story was going, in most Isekai stories where you get yeeted to a world you dont know, its for a reason. and it was obvious freys reason was because she got dumped onto earth in the first place. how did i guess that before seeing the ending? the cuff.. magical items dont just attach to people in a lot of stories, unless its owned through a bloodline. im pretty sure the game did what it did like you said because the devs probably already knew people could care less for the story, most came for the combat which is super mid, its like FFXV but worse.
yeah after watching his 50 min video on the game I've started skipping cutscenes since guess what, it was too easy to pick up that Frey is related to one of the Tantas and I hate that I was right so early on
@@justsomeguy4422
Yo dont diss FFXV. At least that game better in alot of things like road trip with bros/Homie. And I dare say the story actually better if they dont cut up a lot of shit like princess and skipping to adult age
@@justsomeguy4422 Damn really? The combat definitely was dogshit (just holding the O/B button lmao). But aside from that, at least there was SOME shit to like in FFXV.
Like your companions; Iggy (Ignis), Gladio, and Prompto. The massive spectacle of the boss battles, and the amazing soundtrack... That was it lol, but hey it still kept me playing
@@asain3586 Bro, Ignis? Iggy? What a hero, an actual paragon of friendship. His DLC had me crying because of what he did with the ring
I think what happened is that they thought to write her like a tough New Yorker that grew up on the streets without any family. The problem is that she would be more stoic and hardened versus just a straight asshole, and the overall experience of a new reality would probably be welcoming to someone like that. From what I’ve seen this character would have absolutely no friends lol
Totally. Her behavior and backstory make no sense because if she told any of the gangsters to "shut the fuck up" like she tells Cuff 50 times she'd be dead by now.
Not really, they just think she is likeable like "Velma" or Starfire's daughter...
As a person that wants to like this game, I wish it never had a story because it clearly overshadows the game itself. It's nuts to think this game probably would've been far better received if they just never had a writing staff from the start.
see my banner for a cookie!
Shes a self insert of the writer. The writer is most assuredly a snarky asshole that believes being independent and strong means making shitty comments, jokes, and treating others like shit, while at the same time finding such actions as acceptable.
what makes Frey more insufrable is that she literally tries to out victimize the other girl, gets in bad terms with her and you never see her trying to make amends with her later on, or like she tries to apologize somehow, she just said "i dont care about your shitty world" and never tried to apologize for it.
I've heard women say they don't give a fuck about WW2. They don't care about one of the greatest conflicts in the history of man kind. Doesn't interest them. That's insane to me.
@@MamadNobari No, Dumb Writers ☕
Both☕️ :p
Somehow to these writers, apologies are weakness...
@@nazo7090 Dumb, female writers = Forspoken ☕ ouch.
Frey reminds me of this girl I knew growing up that turned every struggle into a competition.
"You think your day was bad? That's pathetic my day was way worse."
Imagine if this was a big ploy, a set up for a sequel where Frey is the villain. The satisfaction of beating a character that you've hated since the beginning of the previous game would be excellent.
What a waste of a first game though. You could have written a villain protagonist story that's actually fun.
Like Light Yagami is a horrible person, but people actually like Death Note.
Good plan. But that's giving them too much credit.
@@shupasopni A lot of first games can be bad, Nier for example didn't have a great start
@@itizwhatitiz9560 Nier had a great story though, and was really just kinda mid and clunky as a game.
But you do have a point. One bad game out the gate wont necessarily sink a series. I'm just saying you don't even need to do the villain protag in a way that will make a stinker of a story.
@@itizwhatitiz9560 What are you talking about"? Nier was great. Granted my dumb 13-year-old brain didn't comprehend that story when I first played it but the story is great, a little bumpy but fun all around with some concerning effects it's had on me questioning my existence.
the fact that most people would choose the new york ending really says a lot about how infuriating this game is
there is Mutiple endings? lmaop
@@weirdyoutubechannels no
Square Enix is that one childhood friend, who you used to had fun with and was a good person. Now, just wishing for them to make better decisions.
It's actually like that good friend that got into drugs or crime 😂 I'd put it down to all the old people that worked there don't anymore and this is what the current work force is capable of.
If I see Square Enix developed/published a game, I know to stay the fuck away from it
Square (since the merger with Enix) has always been a hit and miss studio
Great example is that DIRGE OF CERBERUS came out the same year as FF12 (my guilty pleasure and an underrated FF game imo) being 2006
FF7R was pretty great (had a bunch of flaws but still like an 8 imo) and given what we've seen of FF16, I'm pretty optimistic for it
Even their FF games lacking. Strangers of Paradise
@@hvyarms4496 granted I’m a very new ff fan compared to others but I think the recent ones were pretty decent. 16 looks pretty good too from what we’ve seen
I genuinely love how much emphasis Charles has when talking about how horribly abrasive the main character is. I'm sick and tired of seeing a writers thoughts and emotions come through in almost everything we see. I'm already depressed and angry enough without having to listen to utterly abysmal, school level dialogue.
Just gonna say it’s utterly incredible how you wouldn’t think an author would portray their thoughts and ideals into something they create.
@@dfasdasasdasdasdd it's utterly incredible how you don't think authors can make a story without putting their ideals and thoughts and end up RUINING the story.
@@dfasdasasdasdasdd was just about to say this. It’s the author’s character and story they can do whatever they want with it
@@Aramanela I didn’t say anything about his opinion of the game first of all and just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean the story is ruined. An author literally has full rights to make whatever they want and if you don’t like it, you don’t have to buy/consume it. I’m sure there will be plenty of other people that will enjoy it.
@@bigwinz Once again I never attacked the criticism of the game or their opinions of character at any point. I simply believe it’s crazy to think an author would not put their influence on something they create. I don’t know the author so I can’t really make a comment about Frey being a self insert or not but feel free to make that conclusion.
Square Enix, consistently devolving into the "how do you do fellow kids" of game developers.
They should just outsource the writing Jesus Christ
People too dumb to realize this is a Japanese title.
they were not the developer tho, they were just the publisher, Luminous production was behind the development but still SE giving the go ahead to publish it idk
@@yenmeng they did. That's why the writing sucks
@@user-name3366 but Luminous production is a SE studio its not like they are a separate studio.
Makes me appreciate how crazy it is for 10/10 games to exist. Everyone has to be firing on all cylinders, design, art, gameplay, programming, music, writing, etc. Several of these teams can put in their all and do amazing and still have a game flop because another team completely misses the mark.
Lost judgement is 10/10
You also have to account for subjectivity. A game can be well made and nail it for a certain audience but it will miss for others. I know for sure that not everyone thinks GoW Ragnarok and Elden Ring are 10/10 games.
@@gman7497 let's be honest, people who don't agree on the FACT that ER and GOWR are solid 10 are mostly seeking attention while nit picking flaws, the perfect game or piece of media doesn't exists, but when you get close enough thats a 10/10
@@armoredsquirrel946 I know I haven't tried GOW:R yet and I know it will be good. I guess GOW level of good. Alas, Horizon Zero Dawn for example is a way perfect prequel rather than Forbidden West due to expectations that weren't met. (It's just an example, I'm not hating on the sequel)
@Armored Squirrel I played a ton of all 3 Dark Souls games and Bloodborne and I don't like Elden Ring. I really try every couple months but I don't. I'm happy for From Soft but Code Vein was a huge upgrade to the Souls formula. Elden Ring uses all of the same attacks for the same weapons we've been using in the Souls game for years without adding anything new and fresh to combat. The Ashes of War were cool so you could change the 1 ability your weapon gets but it feels like just a gimmick.
Then the open world and dungeons copy paste the same enemies over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. The world could have been significantly smaller and a much better game.
Just because a game is popular doesn't mean that those that don't like it are crazy or haters.
I tried really hard to like the 2018 GOW but I just didn't. Nothing about it was bad or even terrible. I'm never gonna say bad things about it except that it wasn't for me.
They somehow managed to give a talking bracelet more character development than the protagonist of the game
The very first scene where she walks out of court with her 3rd felony charge and she only got 120 hrs of community service, I was out.
And then bitches about how tough new York courts are lol
Welcome to New York...where those loving, accepting and nurturing democrats don't give 1 tiny shit about you...make sure to give them more of ur hard earned money though.
@@douglasduda9826 jesus fuckin christ there's always one
@@lettuceprime4922 Tell my how am I wrong? She should have gotten locked up. But reality is these Liberal judges Don't want criminals locked up they want them voting...Democrat. Just like all the illegals pouring into our country atm. Somehow this is right and legal to do? These are the same people SCREAMING RULE OF LAW, but don't follow the law themselves. Just the same DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO people as corporate America. Wake the fuck up.
@@douglasduda9826 gotta bring politic to everything don’t you? Yes, blame democrats for everything. They raise gas prices, they give you cancer and they made forspoken shit. Anything else?
Frey is the epitome of Hollywood's idea of a "strong independent woman"
Except this is a Japanese game.
@@zeitgeistx5239 the story writers were not.
@@zeitgeistx5239 The writing team is American
@@zeitgeistx5239 Forspoken was developed by Luminous Productions (a video game studio in Japan as well as a division of Square), that doesn't necessarily mean they wrote the game.
@@zeitgeistx5239 this is like saying marvel movies are chinese because their props use slave labour
The actress that portrays Frey desperately needs a new agent. First Netflix's Resident Evil and now this.
Shit that was her?
@@ThaNarc Yep and she was in the recent Charlie's Angel's movie that got hammered by every UA-camr and critic
@@fezzy5591 god damn shes on a razzy streak
I feel bad for her... Just like Cavill and Yeoh... In the Witcher... Great at what they do... But shit writing.
@@TheSnorlax7 naah she just has a shitty manager
In my old age, I'm starting to appreciate the silent protagonist.
*laughs in doomslayer*
Laughs in Link
Remain silent...
Laughs in souls-like games
FUSH RO DAHHHHHH
Tales of the Abyss is a perfect story that has a protagonist that starts off insufferable but actually grows and becomes a good person, so much so that you are invested in the growth. Luke was an amazing character and is the best example writers could mimic and just forget that the growth of a character is very important.
Based Tales fan. That series does moral greyness so well.
I dunno I found Luke to be an insufferable self entitled jackass and then he became a self pitying suicidal jackass.
I mean he did develop and eventually get a grip by the end and stopped being an ass and a baby but both earlier variations of him were just so annoying and if it wasn't for the host of other great characters I don't think I would have enjoyed Abyss as much as I did.
That said I agree it's leaps and bounds above Forspoken even with my gripes.
Luke was likeable from the start. Makes me question if these complaints about Frey are geniune
Haseo from hack gu and Neku from twewy also works....
Luke is so annoying I also quit. I looked up if he got better and people said he did so stuck with it. Perfect way to do it.
For those curious about why the writing is so cringe.
The two main writers have never worked on videogames. One was primarily an actor, Todd Stashwick. The other was Allison Rymer whose main feat was writing for the god awful YA TV Show, "Shadowhunters."
If you're thinking Amy Hennig and Gary Whitta, they were only credited for Story Concept (specifically Story Concept, and Original Concept respectively). This means they most likely wrote a foundational roadmap/outline for how the story would play out and its setting. Amy and Gary's names also pop up after the montage part of the credits, whereas the former two were credited first AND during the montage. Kinda hints how much involvement the actual experienced and bigger named writers had with the content if I were to say anything about it.
Gary Whitta and especially Amy Hennig were effectively just big names for marketing despite not being the main writers. Similar to how George R.R. Martin states that he really just wrote the foundational lore/outline of the Elden Ring world while Miyazaki fleshed everything out. Yet, you saw George R.R. Martin plastered everywhere to almost sell the idea that he had a direct and constant hand in development.
Well that explains a lot. Thanks for that.
The only difference is that Miyazaki actually took the idea Martin introduced, and actually made something amazing. He probably just needed help on the different multiple contrasting factions through the game.
Here, they took nothing from the outline provided by Amy and Gary. Just as arrogant as their dumbass protagonist themself 😂
The game definitely had some good concepts, even if they were basic fantasy vibes but hiring an actor and a bad YA writer for the job was a terrible idea. This explanation makes perfect sense thank you.
Isn’t Shadowhunters pretty well liked? It has an 80% on Rotten Tomatoes which is really good.
@@zrixie7695 It's a YA book adaptation of "The Mortal Instruments." My ex-gf, who loved the books, convinced me to watch it with her. 1st Season is completely dog and you can check the ratings on that. She said it got a lot better, but that a lot of changes in direction were made that eventually caused her to drop the show entirely and never mention it again. From what I remember, the 1st Season caused a crap ton of ppl and fans alike to drop it. Which is why I doubt many have heard of it or even know it continued with 2 more seasons as I remember there were constant talks of it at risk of getting canceled while it was aired.
Either way, Allison Rymer only wrote 3 episodes from that show. She's still a complete newbie. So I'm unsure if the show is actually good or not cuz I was part of the crowd that got filtered out by S1. Doubly unsure if it's actually good because it could also be one of those shows where its ratings are inflated since it comes from a YA book series targeted at teen girls, i.e. an echo chamber. Which could mean the hardcore fans might be propping it up through a rose tinted lens while also being the only ones watching as again, S1 is an extremely effective filter.
the dialogue is what a 40+ year old thinks gen-z sounds like. it's really telling
To be fair. Some Teenagers are moody, rebellious and try-hard to a point of Validation..... the fact that THIS character doesn't change at all after being thrown into a world of magic and fantasy and doesn't change from it. Isn't realistic at all.
Nah, the dialogue is what a 29 year-old former LiveJournal writer thinks the world is like.
And Frey isn’t even a teenager, she’s 20 in the game it tells us her age at the start.
Nah, it's what 20+ somethings want the character to sound like by living vicariously through the character.
I think a for- sure takeaway from this is that lots of gamers are adults in their 30s and 40s and we don't necessarily want to be in the shoes of snotty know-it all kids. There needs to be recognition in the games industry that the demographic for triple A games has matured and maybe the writing should as well.
Saddie Addler in RDR2 is my favourite example of a strong female character who's actually well written. Her strength doesn't come at the expense of everyone around her
EXACTLY. Frey I absolutely fucking hate, but Saddie Addler? I would marry her... then again I don't think she would marry any other man again after the whole ordeal...
Her husband killed, her house burned, possibly raped by O'driscolls and then saved by the Van der Linde gang...Of course she's going to shift her perspective of life and crave her revenge. All RDR2 characters are greatly written.
R2-D2?
@@atomicfoxtoast647 Red Dead Redemption 2
Her revenge does come with some expense. She tended to have impulse problems which arose like 3 or 4 times through the game. One time specifically getting Arthur caught by an enemy.
She is also kind of a Mary Sue because out of nowhere she is able to shoot like a top gunslinger. I wish she had a tad bit more of development in the middle for everything they try to deliver with her.
I seriously hate that argument about people hating female protagonists and I'm glad you tackled that Charlie. People don't hate Frey because she's a woman. People hate Frey because she's an asshole. She's unlikeable and insufferable. There's plenty of amazing female protagonists out there like Lara Croft, Samus Aran, Aloy, etc. Protagonists being female isn't the issue, the writing is.
Don't hate her because she's a female, hate her because she's a poc
I like how the game actively tells you to not play the game by having the main character constantly remind you that she doesn't want to do any of this either.
This is a huge problem in a lot of media. If the characters are miserable it bleeds over, especially for games
You see the same issue on Velma when it comes to writing. You have writers with terrible character who believe they have it all together and they write out of their own toxic awfulness.
basically, not even the makers watch it for their own enjoyment unless it feeds their own ego.
Yeah, it's showing not just a talent issue with modern writes but also a morality issue, especially when these characters are continually panned yet they keep making them
@@archbishopofthecrusades9579 I think it’s always been this way. Looking back every generation says the prior was bad. I think nepotism just goes too far in artistic avenues which is a crazy concept to begin with
@EBP Thicc Papa Yas nepotism? try diversity hires
I don't think that's exactly the same situation. Apparently The creator of the show even said she didnt want to make the show but wb said if she wanted to make a show she had to use one of their existing ip's. I could be be wrong tho but I saw people saying that on twitter
The marketing people weren't the villains this time. In fact, they did their absolute best with what they had and possibly tried to warn us.
That sweet sense of relief when you don't pre-order a bad game
The relief when i did, was disappointed when it was delayed to november then refunded it when it was delayed to now
That sweet sense of having a brain when you don't pre-order any games, because you're not a terrible consoomer.
@@singami465 ok good for you. This game looked cool and i love open world traversal shit but i refunded cause the delays worried me
@@TallTitanTV It's best to never pre-order imo.
@@TallTitanTV ...why not just wait for the release and buy it then? What is there to lose by not frontloading your cash on a product you know nothing about?
A good female protagonist I don't see mentioned often is Bayonetta from the series of the same name. She's very charming, witty, elegant, and yet has a lot of depth to her with her backstory and her parents, which is used very well. Also, she does go through a slight character arc in the first game, where she is basically all on her own spare for one or two allies, but over the course of the game learns to trust people, trust herself, and her new friends, and becomes very caring and protective of the people close to her. She's witty and has some funny dialouge but isn't constantly talking. She's quiet and serious when needed. It's not that hard to make a good female protagonist lol
Probably because her whole trope is her powers make her naked. You can’t really spin it as her having character progression when she’s designed to be sexualized.
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
🙄🙄🙄🙄😒😒😒😒😒
@@Bleax A character can be sexualized and still have a good arc. They are not mutualy exclusive.
@@Bleax oof self inserted comment
Watching this game just makes me want to play Control. Great story, great combat, great female protagonist.
Controls story was very weird not bad but weird
I'm happy I 100% control. This i can't bare to listen to and the gameplay needed to be perfective. Everything is too cluttered but nothing refined
@@AaronHendu I hope you enjoy it.
@@AaronHendu enjoy, it's a great game
@@barbodx9957 yeah controls odd as fuck, fun tho
We really got Forspoken and Velma in the same year and we’re not even a month in yet
This is a Japanese game.
Since those came out they moved the apocalypse clock by 10 seconds too
@@zeitgeistx5239 literally noone asked
@@valti223 last of us too 😂
Written by Americans
What's crazy too is that at the end of the game you have a choice to pick two portals, either to stay in Athia and fight the final boss, or take a portal back home to NYC. If you choose the latter, it ends with LITERALLY a fifteen-second cutscene of you walking down the street with your cat. Like, that's it, lmao. Feels so half assed
Wow.. What a letdown.
If you wait for the cutscene & credits to end, it actually takes you directly to the start menu for Stray, the award winning cat simulator. Only on PS5 though.
@JackAMatt The fuck you just say?
I believe that's the true ending
@JackAMatt what else would you expect from cuphead? What else would they have done?
Hearing you talk about unlikable protagonists reminds me of my first playthrough of Tales of the Abyss. I straight up hated how obnoxious the protagonist was at the beginning, but they had one of the strangest ways of making that makes sense and gave him a very well done redemption.
I don’t know how there are still writers who think, “let’s write the main character so that everyone hates her” like did they actually think she will be popular?
Because most writers are men
They aren’t really doing this for actual fans of RPG’s or games as a whole, they could care less, kinda like how the Rings Of Power producers don’t give a damn about LOTR fans…sadly
Its like an unconscious attempt to generate a self-fulfilling prophecy. A lot of people in Hollywood try to push that no one likes female protagonists just because they are women, so they create horrible female characters so they can keep complaining about how people don't like them.
What are you talking about? She was so badass and didn't take shit from anyone. All girls wish to be like her smh people love to complain about female protagonists. (Satire)
ya gotta be black. which means always having an attitude and walk around like your entitled to the world bowing down to you
forspoken feels like if an AI was given a triple A game budget.
@YeaMan you don’t have to lid
ai is better than those writers
Even an AI can't make something as soulless as writers/developers who don't care.
i think an AI would do a 10x times better job than this. an AI would see what makes a game good statistically and just make it make it good based on that
You didn’t know this is a Japanese game.
"A lot of shows and games make their protagonist mean without giving them a redemption arc"
The issue is that you're not supposed to see that as the protagonist being mean. You're supposed to be on the protagonist's side. This comes from just a disconnect between the writers and actual human interaction.
I dont think the one Who write this is even human
Apparently everyone forgot about Lara Croft being one of the best female video game protagonists of all time 🤔
Honorable mentions: Jesse Fayden, Senua, Billie Lurk, 2B, Bayonetta, Caire Redfield
Clementine Ates
@@DerAykac Samus Aran 😍
@@DerAykac Ellie !
@@DerAykac clementine!
There was a part in the game where I thought to myself. If they just committed to the character to be an unlikable jerk and made the dialogue funny, they actually may have had a good character and a potentially good arc for them. Particularly when she was having the "pity party". That could have been a moment where the protag becomes a little more self aware and owns that they are a prick.
I was hoping the she became the villain. Like the shitty character could’ve had purpose in the end. Imagine ending that world then final cutscene is her going home hinting at a sequel
That’s what I would’ve thought too. When the other character calls her out, it could have been a wake-up call for her. It could’ve been the point where she realizes how awful she has treated people and tries to change.
I find it fascinating that they go with the twitter version of strong and independent rather than actually being strong and independent
Yeah, she just seems pathetic and insecure, like twitter users.
"And then she tried to out-victim her" So she's a Twitter user?
Twitter user, SJW, Feminist what's the difference?
It reminded me of telltale games where if you choose all the bad options it wasn’t gonna change the story at all, except the game just does it for you
I really love how the developers of the game even came out and said you should just listen to a podcast or so while playing the game, cause there really ain't a lot to the game. Since if the devs themself say that, that just shows how unsatisfied they are with it
Haha that's prolly what they did
Link?
link? Would be hilarious if true.
Ok I did send a link but it just got deleted again for some reason
@@Taraku43 sure buddy..
Plague Tale is an example of an incredibly well written female protagonist. I really hate the “women bad” argument.
I feel like saying "female protagonist" or "male protagonist" is a problem in itself. A protagonist is just that, the main character. The gender shouldn't matter, the character should
I hate the term “female protagonists” as a game can always have a main character of any gender always, it’s about the writing, not about the woman
TLOU 2 has a female protagonist who you can even disagree with every decision she makes, and yet you still understand her and care about her. No protagonist needs to be perfect, but you need to at least understand them.
edit: and i wasn't even including the female antagonist in that game, who is ALSO understandable.
writers are just lazy as fuck
@@nGUNNARp no one is trying to understand this one tho lol
A Plague Tale was written by a French guy, they still do "old style" writing over there (where you actually have to earn the viewer's sympathy, not just demand it from the start). An American writer would have turned it into an undigestible borefest.
The best example of an amazingly written character that you're not suppose to like but then over time it changes, is bojack horseman. That show hit that nail perfectly
Absolutely, Bojack was amazing because he was terrible from the get-go but humanized more than any human character in spite of all his flaws. And then there are shows like Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Archer, and Venture Bros that sort of make you dislike characters even more over time, but that's intended by design. But I don't get the impression that the Forspoken devs were going for either approach 💀
Classic British comedies also have characters (often the main ones) you're not supposed to like, but they're done well and they usually suffer the consequences.
Blackadder, Bottom, The Young Ones, Red Dwarf, Fawlty Towers etc. I can't imagine making a video game about Arnold Rimmer and trying to play him off as somebody you're supposed to root for.
Tony Soprano too. You want to root and sympathize for them. You want them to change but you realize at the end of the show that they won’t (or choose not to) change.
This for me is Re:zero. At the start he was one of the most infuriating mc I'd ever seen and it took me a month to finish the first six episodes. And then in 6 episode he became a character you only hope for him to be truly happy
I haven't played it but the whole vibe of this game just looks like a 8 hour long "They fly now? They fly now"
"It was a fun world to go through." I love how insincere his voice sounds.
@Patrick39 NO SHUT UP
I think it may have been more disappointment than insincerity. There really was potential here in the world and combat visuals like he mentioned, but god damn, it really did not pull it all together.
I mean his voice is always insincere
He sounded genuine to me. I appreciate how honest Charlie is when he does these
A rule that many modern writers fail to understand: Making your female character a sarcastic know it all doesn't make her likable in the slighest. It only makes her more annoying and unbearable to connect with.
And why do you believe the goal was to make her likable. Every game does the same likable troupe.
Even Sarcasm works if you write with a brain, I love Ellie in TLOS and she’s as sarcastic as you can get
@@FervorGaming it usually helps in a video game to like the character you’re gonna spend hours playing as
@@FervorGaming Because without it the game will fail. Same with basically any media. Why would i want to watch or play as a rude AF character that i just want to punch. Like fine, if you want them to be rude and unlikeable then make that a big point in the story so you are actively rooting against the character you play as. However in games like this, all it does is make the game annoying to play. Its literally the exact same scenario as the new Velma show, she is so fucking unlikable it makes the show unbearable to watch,
@@FervorGaming no they dont. Most games have blank slate troupe. So the people can relate to them even if they have no depth.
Fragile from death stranding is an example of an awesome female character. She's strong and gets shit done but also vulnerable and has her weak points. I don't see why so many writers these days think making a girl super strong and with a really annoying attitude makes them somehow a good lead character.
Probably a result of these people living on Twitter and thinking that having a clap back attitude is so cool. Meanwhile it's just cringy in real life and not realistic at all
Horizon Zero Dawn sold millions of copies and has a woman protagonist. An incredibly strong one at that. There are in fact weirdos complaining about her being a woman but the vast majority of people regard them as misogynistic assholes.
And Freya in God of War and Ragnarok is another example of a great character that is a woman, is strong and independent, incorporates aspects of womanhood into the story, all without making her unlikable even when she is an antagonist at some point in the story.
It's because of feminism. They feel like they cannot portray a woman as having any bad qualities or appearing weak due to the "patriarchy" so they make them boss bitches
@@tave6202 The girl in Horizon Zero Dawn sucks. It is a common opinion that she sucks.
And not because she's insufferable, but because if the twist at the end of the game was that she was also a robot, I wouldn't even have been faintly surprised.
Jesus what a boring character
@@grundlewizard1775 I have played both Horizon games and I am in like three different subreddits for the games. I have no idea what twist you are talking about. And also, Aloy is widely beloved among Horizon fans.
@@grundlewizard1775 Common opinion?
There’s so many better examples of strong female protagonists with actual struggles and developments over Frey. Amicia De Rune is a more recent one who genuinely goes through so much in the name of love for her brother and even occasionally loses herself to the violence, bloodlust, and horrible people in the world in a believable and well-written way.
I like how the developers say the game will take 30 hours skipping everything and 70 hours with all the sidequests but then chad Charlie arrives and does it in 8.
Maybe the developers were game journalists and couldn't lower the difficulty to suit their skill level.
and that was on hard while doing some dungeons.
you could probably run through it in 5 hours without trying.
what's funny is that no glitch speedrun probably won't be that much faster either, since most of the time spent on this game has you waiting forcefully.
Man, it's crazy that Square used to be THE storytellers of videogames. If it said Square on the box, 99% of the time you knew the story was absolute heat. Sad that it's been so long since they've had that reputation
They’re still very solid when it’s about Japanese/anime like characters, they just need to stop pandering to America , it never works
SE is still pretty good. But it's not the 90s anymore, the company have many ongoing projects. Some will hit, and some will miss. I already knew before even playing the game exactly what kind of game this would be. Bad story, fun gameplay. And sadly if your game had a bad story/character, no matter how fun it might be, if you can't buy into the character you play as, the game just won't win people over.
@@SuperRamos619 SE hasn’t put anything good out in over 10 years stop the cap.
Nah Square's executive branch has been absolutely moronic for the past several years. There's no mistaking it. Remember when they blamed all their problems on their Western studios and then sold them off for a hilariously undervalued $300 million? Yeah.
@@SuperRamos619 se has been trash for so long stop it with the fantasy
Having an insufferable main character in a game is absolutely a deal breaker. You spend the entire game as this character, you can't have them be this unlikeable.
Let me remind you of Abby (from TLOU2)
@@RyuShinkuuHadoken Ahh that character in the game that tanked the IP? Yeah good point.
Tales of Abyss does a wonderful job with having an insufferable MC- for the first half of the game he’s a massive jackass and it’s impossible to like him, but by the second half he’s a completely different person who both learned his lesson and changed for the better. THAT is how you do it
@@weabootrash5891 Luke wasnt that bad but it was nice to see his development throughout.
@@ThaTyphon I’ll admit it’s been ages since I played Abyss, but I remember him being really unlikeable for the first half. Still, seeing him change and be better made his character work, and justified his earlier self in the story
Crosscode is a game that is the perfect example of an INCREDIBLE female protagonist
LEA CROSSCODE MY FUCKING BELOVED
Shes so funny and silly and its great
poor thing needs words programmed into her to speak and she still has more development and charm than frey
Hi
In the defense of the devs they did an accurate portrayal of a New Yorker
This is truly a game of 2023
Holy bots
Nah bro. It's definitely one of the games of all time
Thank you for being my new News 12 Charlie
truly one the games of all time
Of 2022+1
"Did I just make a bad game? Yeah ok I guess I do that now." - Square Enix
Man they've been doing that for awhile. Hell they're still riding on themselves and patting themselves on the back for that awful Final Fantasy movie.
@@leoncoben6983 nah they make fire games just not this one
@@thetrashcanman7537 Dude their games are a coin flip, they've completely crashed the Life is Strange series and the only thing more disappointing than KH3 was finding out Santa doesn't exist.
You new to Square Enix? They aren't strangers to making bad games.
@@leoncoben6983 that’s two games? Both for kids which I am not they make great games and have a bunch of classics under their belt I don’t care about some spin off garbage and some disney game people were expecting too much out of
What I find weird and a bit fascinating about the game is how it has a very American-created opening and main character, but the world's design and even the animations during cutscenes look so Japanese-made.
Cartoons: American writing, animation made in Korea.
Yeah it's normal most of the time.
like a worst kappa mikey
@@ea_naseer Or created/written in France, animated in Korea, dubbed in America. Happens with a surprising amount of cartoons, especially during the 80s and 90s.
The developer is the same one that made Final Fantasy, but idk which game it is. The same team.
Mix modern America with anything and it turns to crap
the dialogue in this game sounds like what a student in a creative writing class in high school would write.
Honestly they could and would probably do better.
And that student is a resentful, hateful person who thinks everyone is against him just because.
I'm glad Charlie mentioned Godslap being a good Christmas gift, since I'm already shopping for Christmas in January.
I woke up and was so drowzy and did my daily bad habit of playing yt videos first thing before I even get out of bed, i was fading in and out of sleep, but Charlie's vitriol and sheer ability of tearing this game just woke me up
I watched my buddy play the first couple hours and I literally said "the MCU has ruined dialogue". It's crazy how much recent media suffers from the writing staff being detached, like they do the bare minimum when it comes to the art of writing and what they do is all just... Bad.
MCU, Netflix, Legit 90% of commercials you see on TV…. All of the media. It’s been going on for a while now and people are just that stupid to ever realize what’s actually going on.
@@potatohead3323 It's not stupidity, it's not giving a shit because you're more concerned about paying rent.
I miss when the MCU still had a heart
Yeah, americans like to ruin everything... thanks by the way
5:21 What Charlie said is valid. People loved the hell out of Life Is Strange because the game had a compelling story with writing that made sense. The biggest complaints from the players of Forspoken is the janky writing that repeats itself, contradicts itself and generally makes the player lose interest.
... I said the story was compelling and the writing made sense. Never did I say LIS was godtier while I sat on the crapper typing away.
The reason I picked this example up for comparison was because of the similarly flawed characters in each title - Dontnod just did a better job of framing their story, and you had the choice to kill off Chloe in the end. None of her bullshit, clean slate for LIS 2 to start from.
life is strange having good writting? lol
@@ags8507 right? Only reason it was popular was the way the gameplay was framed, the quirky writing and the interesting power it revolves around, people gravitate to art project style games
@@MontySlython Not really, the game was popular because it had an emotional story and an interesting journey
It's really ironic that you said that, considering the fact that Chloe is literally Frey! Both of them are boring, unlikable, egocentric and rude for no reason characters, that you can't really sympathize with 🤭
@@ags8507 LiS had janky dialog no doubt (Because it was made by French people) but it made up for it in its story and characters. Pretty much every sequel and prequel after that was just dog water
Even the main villain has to tell Frey to be more polite to other characters.
Wait is this fcking real 😂😂😂
@@flyingcucumber9325 It's before he reveals himself as evil, to be fair, but yeah.
@@MerryTheJerryKun but he really didn't have to do that. Frey could care less about what he had to say in general, so he could have just stayed silent or talked about other things, but he chose to call her out on being a bitch.
My favorite character of all time is Zuko from Avatar, so yeah it's entirely possible to have a character start as an asshole and become a likable character, they just really didn't know how or didn't even think they needed to. The scene with her and the other girl trying to out-victim her is so fucking weird, cause you're like "Surely this is where she'll think about how she's been acting" but no, she doubles down on it, and then in such a short time later has the audacity to say "I thought I was finally going to be the hero, but the rug gets pulled out from under me again, like always." Just, ugiurgshgh
She literally is the hero. Shes literally waging war against evil in there world. You guy are acting like she says that and then just walks away and the world is consumed by evil. A character can say something and show that they didn't mean it by their actions.
@@Theyungcity23 That's not the point. The point is that she's an asshole.
Yep I was dying at every scene of her dialogue, truly the most unlikable and cringe character I have ever experienced
@@Theyungcity23 That’s the most annoying thing to do for like 60 hours or however long this game can be with it being an.. RPG? “You’re so fucking annoying” *gives you something* but we’re still friends? no the fuck we ain’t.
@@Theyungcity23 say what you want doesn't change the fact that the protag annoying af.
I always like to think of Luke from Tales of the Abyss as a good example of how to make an unlikable character develop into a very likable one over the course of the game.
Also Yoko from the Twelve Kingdoms anime is another really good example.
Goes to show how much characters can overshadow everything in a game
during the "i just moved shit with my mind" dialogues the bracelet just said the best way it can to Frey. "i just keep hearing I, I, I"
Forspoken and Velma being released so close together made it worse in my opinion. Two completely different mediums suffering from exactly the same problems
Far left woke ideology?
@@derekgardner1861 nah most people regardless of politics dislike velma and forspoken, it suffers from the asshole protagonist thing that's a pale attempt at copying marvel characters
@@derekgardner1861 neither character acting like insecure dicks have anything to do with being "woke"
@@aidandix7296 marvel characters lmao
@@dfquartzidn6151 specifically MCU characters ofc
“What should we name the game?”
“Well, the spoken dialogue felt a bit forced…”
“… I got it.”
When I first saw this game knowing nothing about it, I was super excited. I figured the dialogue would sound better then in the trailers. It looked amazing, the magic combat and parkour seemed really cool. Then more stuff kept getting shown, with every new thing I saw the less excited I was, and when I played the demo I was glad I never preordered it.
Why don't they have a shy protagonist who doesn't believe in themselves then comes out of their shell and makes friends along the way. Yeno something people can relate to
Honestly they just as well could have made Frey interesting/likeable with her initial setup too. Having her be a cynical asshole at first that learns to enjoy the beauty of the world around her. Learn to love the generous people that believe in her. Like this ain't the most original character or anything, but it shows good growth, a character that can start off as narcissistic becoming a defender for the people because she truly loves what those people represent is a very solid character journey.
God even at the end with what Charlie was talking about, they easily could have written her character to remember her past and the sorrow she felt by her hard upbringing and sympathize with the girl instead, but reassuring her that she still has her. Holy shit how did they flop this so bad 💀
Because there would be alot of cliché, or maybe that's what I think
@@youwantmyname9208 Cliche =/= bad writing, it's all about execution
That's even worse. Going with some basic uninteresting story
Too anime i'd say. But it didn't have to be ...this.
The _"you wouldn't mind Frey if she was male"_ is so dumb because it wasn't that long ago since people collectively hated a self-centered, snarky, immature male narcissist with awful dialogue that never truly grows as a person as the main character of a videogame.
But then again, I shouldn't be really that surprised that no one remembers YIIK in current year. I expect Forspoken to be the same in about a year or so.
You mean Mitchell from Hunt Down the Freeman?
to be fair, i dont think compareing big budget triple aaa dev FORSPOKEN to small indie game crowed sourced with youtube VAs YIIK is a very fair comperison. But I do get the point you are making.
U can just look at how ppl particularly hated Noctis from FF15 because he was a self-centered, immature (male
@@huntsman0865 I have to disagree. Money does not play a part in the ability to write a character to be likable. If it was anything regarding visuals or even mechanics of the game, you would have a point. But on the face of a halfway decent character (or lack thereof in both cases) money is near meaningless.
@kiracaroso hire better writers? Hire someone proven and professional? What are you talking about "money doesn't effect writing." Of course it does. Go look at a well respected/like peice of media, look at the credits and poach some writers.
I think they did a really good job portraying someone with borderline personality disorder getting magical powers
Wtf man why would you say that
@@lhzoz7 It's true
They did a good job capturing someone who’s literally insane obtaining superpowers in a fantasy world
I think growing up under extremely difficult circumstances like the main character did is a good excuse for them to be an ass in the beginning of the game, but yeah they need to have some development at some point. I actually liked the conversation between her and the other girl when that girl's dad died. It started out like it was going to be a conversation that made the protagonist think and realize how selfish they were being, but at the end of it she was just like, "Alright, yup, screw this place. I'm out." It was the perfect opportunity for some growth and they just hit the snooze button on that.
The whole story is just a snooze. Could’ve done almost literally anything else and it would’ve been better
It’s not that big of an excuse. Thousands of people grow up in the same or worse circumstances and aren’t half as rude as this girl is written to be.
@@iamepic6726 well and some people grow up with a silver spoon in their mouth and end up as serial killers. Everyone's different, but if you want to write a character that people can connect to then they need to develop from that asshole in the beginning to an actual hero by the end. And at the end she says she THOUGHT she could be a hero, but all of her actions are about abandoning the people that need her so she can go back to her crappy life. It's a lot of tell, don't show when it comes to her changing as a character, what little she did.
New York isn't "extremely difficult circumstances" despite all the dick riding.
@@NotSoSerious69420 yeah, as soon as you say "Hey this girl has no idea who her parents are," and then she gets whisked away to another world, having her parents be from that world is like...the most obvious thing ever. I laughed so hard when Charlie straight guessed, "IS THE DRAGON HER MOM?"
Charlie hitting it today with the stream during my shift and a moisty meter when I get home
a real treat.
45% was very generous, much like every "challenge" in the game.
Forspoken seems like the kind of game that if I played I would let Frey die intentionally due to how horrible she is as a person.
I've never met a real person that dislikes a game solely because of the gender of the main character but twitter will have you believe that its literally 100% of the people criticizing games.
I've been waiting for this
@reginmyre you make bad comments to entice people to check out your channel because you actually like kids
Bots always do that it's disgusting honestly
A game finally delivers us what is promised in the trailers and it couldn't suck more
Game: I'm selling snake oil
Game proceeds to sell snake oil.
Fray: I don't like this world and you should not too.
Me: Okay then. Thank for saving me 70/80 bucks
The rating Charlie gave was very generous honestly.
His ratings are ALWAYS generous. It's honestly pretty pathetic to have him rate stuff on the same scale than IGN, where god awful stuff is just bellow 50%
all that rating went into graphics.
@@Pers0n97 because like it or not there were decent things about this game, like the visuals and the okayish gameplay
@@NeroV1L3 The visual?
You mean "generic realistic standard of current year"? Or the artstyle? ie "generic wireframe effect and particle number 1554545"?
Hey, wana talk about how dogshit the optimisation is maybe while we are here?
No?
Mkay.
And as for the gameplay, give me a break. Even you can't call it any better than "okayish" and even that is pretty generous.
I played the demo and while the gameplay wasn't too bad, as soon as the dialogue started happening, I'm like well this is gonna be a problem.
If I'm ever forced to play this game, I'm going into settings, sliding dialouge volume to 0, and turning off subtitles.
I salute Charlie for playing this game. A lot of people wouldn’t dare to waste their time and money.
Yeah it’s insane how people don’t care what reviews or what other people say and just play a game they think is fun.
@@OhFicial67 ye no one thinks this shit is fun mate lmfaoooo
@@SafetyKitten To you it isn't but it might be for someone else. You don't speak for everyone 😂
@@SafetyKitten you'd be wrong my guy, I personally loved the game. Yeah the dialogue is a bit cringe in a few parts but the game isn't bad. The combat slaps as well.
Im the stupid one who bought the game yesterday. I’m goin to game stop to demand a refund or a good trade in.
unlikeable or evil protagonists can work so beautifully when given any sense of growth, see Luke fon Fabre from Tales of The Abyss or even Zuko from Avatar, there was no reason for the writers to have done what they did to Frey's character
Never played Tales of the Abyss but Zuko changed over the course of like 3 seasons. That's why it felt good / believable. If they had actually made someone so angry and traumatized change so much over the course of the game's what, several days? It would have been an even worse game IMO. It's shitty and lazy, but her turnaround at the end kinda makes sense because they explained that the reason for her trauma wasn't what she thought it was.