Silly Rabbit, Green Hand is doing an amazing job of investigating the subtle clues and brush strokes of the author. It's an exceedingly complex story and that's precisely why millions adore Sherlocking through the material. I hope you'll complete the books and the show. We'll have two seperate stories set within Westeros. Best regards
Silly Rabbit...Thank you so much...we haven't directly done a video on the Children yet...we have talked about them definitely coming down on the side of death in this war for life itself, as Mel puts it...it's really complex...much too complex for the comment section, but we will do videos directly covering the children sometime in the near future
The Order of the Green Hand yeah, instead of the endless theories built on fables, you seem very capable to comprehend the political nature of ASOIAF. Credit where credit is due: Great analysis!
I think one *major* flaw in Tywin _ and I mean from a *Machiavellian* point of view _ is how he raises his children. In the world of Westeros, which so closely resembles medieval Europe, inheritance is a big deal, the key to power. Tywin shows his awareness of this when he tries to get Cersei married to Prince Rhaegar. Given this, you would expect such a careful and calculating great lord to plan the upbringing of his children _ *all* of them _ to ensure the safeguarding of his legacy. Even if, as is often said, he was not by nature the fatherly type, you would expect him to recognise this fact and compensate for it with the same self-discipline he brings to everything else. You would at least expect him to plan the development of their characters so that they would be of maximum service to House Lannister in their adult lives. Instead, as we see, he is hopelessly off-beam with all of them, indulging the elder two, mistreating Tyrion, and in all three cases, failing utterly to comprehend their true characters. The incestuous relationship of Jaime and Cersei could hardly have happened if their father had taken any interest in their lives. It is true that Jaime grows up to be a great warrior (before getting his hand cut off), but I don't think this is due to any special effort or achievement by Tywin. As for Tyrion, his father fails to fully appreciate that his younger son has inherited his brains and effectiveness _ because he fails to apply his usual self-discipline and instead lets his emotions about his dead wife, Tyrion's mother, run riot. And I do not accept all this blather about Aerys possibly being Tyrion's father as an excuse for Tywin _ at least, not an excuse in *Machiavellian* terms. When Tyrion was born and his mother died, Tywin had two decisions to make: (1) Would he accept the baby as his true son? (2) Would he live with the fact of the boy being a dwarf, in a world which would despise this? If Tywin had decided to let the baby have a fatal "accident", he would certainly have got away with it. So once he had made his decision to raise Tyrion as his son and potential heir, the Machiavellian thing to do was _ *stick to it* . This he failed to do, fighting his own decision throughout Tyrion's life.
Sorry for such a late reply, I was rewatching this series and had to add to what you have said. I have come to understand the reason that tywin could not raise his children in the most Machiavellian way is because he was not only the hand of the king, but also warden of the west. Each title on it's own would leave little time to be a father, much less holding both at once would make it nearly impossible. In all honesty, I think he did a better job than anyone else could have, given the constraints and responsibilities of his lordly duties. On the issue of Jaime and cersei's incestuous relationship, this probably was not that big of a deal to tywin. While publicly he would be displeased by the idea of his twin son and daughter being in love/lust with one another. Deep down he probably understood the fact that they are mirror images of each other, and the fact that they are the visual personification of the strength and beauty of house Lannister, he probably thought that if they were in love/lust with one another they would keep each other as a priority, in turn keeping house Lannister as a priority. Now the situation with Tyrion. The last thing a man of tywins gumption would want to do is be seen as a cuckold(even if it was the king himself who made him said cuckold.) So there is one reason not to just kill Tyrion(because if he did kill Tyrion he would have to profess that he had been cuckolded. Added to that is the fact that he had no other proof than his own word). The other reason(and his least Machiavellian trait) was because of his unconditional love for Joanna. I imagine tywin decided to raise Tyrion as his own because of the fact that Tyrion was Joanna's child(this is also why he would not have had Tyrion die in a fatal accident). Considering the fact that Jaime was the heir to casterly rock for the first 11 or 12 years of tyrion's life, tywin was not worried about Tyrion inheriting his family's castle and the titles that came with it. Tyrion only became heir in theory at the age of 11 or 12 once Jaime was named a knight of the KG(but I am sure tywin had plans to make sure Tyrion would never inherit casterly rock, no matter the fact that he was Joanna's child). All in all, I actually think tywin did a pretty good job of raising his/Joanna's children in a Machiavellian way, especially considering all his lordly duties and responsibilities. However, Tywin's biggest weakness and least Machiavellian trait was his blind love for Joanna.
I also want to add that Tywin usually let a lot of conflicts sort themselves out. And when he absolutely had to intervene, he did it as covertly as possible. He only really put his name on actions that would make his house more respected in the face of blatant disrespect. He would also only take these actions if he had the ability to crush his enemies entirely. So when it seems as though he is second guessing himself, he is really just waiting for the most opportune time to intervene. When those times would arise he would act swiftly and dole out all reprimanding at once. The most Machiavellian thing tywin never did was kill Tyrion in his infancy. But as I stated before I think he let Tyrion live because of his love for Joanna. However, I will expound upon that and say, he made tyrion's life as much of a living hell as he could because of the fact that aerys was tyrion's father.
we wrestled with that wording because we normally try not to use profanity if it can be avoided, but there was no better way we could think of to make that point
Thanks DoubleO88...sometimes I worry that our sarcasm isn't as obvious as I think it is...we had to stop using pop culture stuff as often as we did originally because people didn't get it...when I used the Lady's Man reference it went over the head of too many people and they thought we were being racist, then it happened again with The Wire so we hung it up all together
I laughed really hard at the rhaegar swinging Lyanna over his shoulder part, I just pictured him riding in at high speed, grabbing lyanna, and shouting something like "rhaegar strikes again!"
I love that line. "Rhaegar did something that many men have done before him and many men have done after him. He did something assininely stupid over a girl."
George RR should hire you guys! This is the BEST SERIES EVER ON GOT! Talk bout connecting the dots. This breakdown makes the most sense on what happened. Especially Rhegar and Lyana.
Tywin is completely fascinating...this was originally going to be one video then we started delving deeper and found so much more than we even thought was possible to talk about and now it looks like its going to be 5 videos
Thank both of you so much...unfortunately that almost always seems to be the case...whatever plans we make to try and schedule videos always ends up taking longer than expected and requiring more videos than expected
The best videos on the best character in the series. I like when you make assumptions you base them off logic and what that character would most probably do in that situation. This is exactly why this channel is growing. Keep it up Micheal Douglas and his new girl.
thats funny you say that, everyone says my dad looks like michael douglas, and now you're telling me ser green hand sounds like him. not sure what that means but thought i would share. thanks ! -lady gh
I dont bother listening to any other "theorists" anymore. It is inconsequential. I patiently wait for your releases since only YOU make sense anymore. Keep up the excellent work, and Im positive i speak for everybody when I say this, thank you.
thank you...we had a rough year, and didn't get as much content out as we wanted to...m'lady's mother had a pretty serious stroke, and we've been part/full time caregivers on top of everything else...but that situation has finally settled down and we're going to do our best not to make you wait too long for our new videos...we have at least 10 theories backed up that need to be fully flushed out and made into videos/series right now and we're itching to see what you guys think
Great videos! I think I've watched them all now. The best analysis out there. I wanted to point out that another reason Tywin needed to hedge his bets in the final events of Robert's Rebellion is that his son and heir was a hostage of the king. Any overt move against the king would have surely led to Jaime's fiery demise. We know from later conversations that Tywin always held out hope that Jamie could eventually be discharged from the King's Guard to become Lord of Casterly Rock, since he loathed the notion of Aerys's suspected bastard (Tyrion) taking his own mantle when he was gone.
Thank you so much...and very true...sometimes when you are trying to explain all these shadowy maneuvers you get so focused on what is going on behind the scenes that you forget to mention what is right out front, but if Tywin publicly moved against the Targaryens, Jaime would certainly have suffered a heinous death
Honestly when I saw your tywin video I didn't expect something so simple, yet so brilliant. George made it so you'd never think of those two at the same time, but when you do it makes so much sense.
Yes! I had just checked your channel not 20 minutes ago to see if maybe UA-cam didn't notify me. Great way to end a Sunday night. Thanks for the hard work y'all put into each video!
Another great video guys! I gotta say honestly, the whole Tywin setting things up to win either way, basically every time he engages risk, is: brilliant, makes perfect sense, blew my mind, and is totally a GRRM thing to do ... I'm convinced ya'll are onto a few things other theorists haven't cracked yet! Maybe you two should be a real-life crime solving unit as, you really do bring light onto details nobody else saw! Please keep the videos coming!
you guys put so much work into your videos! it is truely impressive, I'm learning so many much new stuff in every video you guys make. and I thought I was a true asoiaf fan lol. keep up the great work!!!
This is probably my favorite video series you've done (although the one about Ned already being married is close in the running). Hadn't thought about Tywin conspiring with Rhaegar before, but with how you lay everything out it makes sense. It is something Tywin would do, especially if the endgame was paying the Mad King back. Can't wait for the next part. And thanks for following me on Twitter
ASOIAF freak here: I really appreciate how quickly your two put out your videos. Your perspective is fresh and has inspired another re-read of the novels. Thanks for bringing more clarity and keep up the good work!
For someone who's family and legacy where of utmost importance to him, he was absolutely AWFUL at raising a family or ensuring his children understood their places in his legacy. He never really understood aby of hos children (other than recognizing Tyrion being his mini-me but rejecting that). So for all his low cunning and absolute ruthless ambition, his greatest weakness was his blindness towards his family
i have literally stopped watching any other asoif theory pages. you guys are amazing and put so much thought into your videos its always worth the wait !!! keep rocking!
Yep. This is what happens when I don't edit ser green hands research ... thank you in any event the tyrells and martells hate each other so the logic is still valid haha
Amazing as always. presented with undeniable quality. Love the editing and visuals. Also, both of your voices are really pleasant. Informative and entertaining. can't wait for the next. Love yous guys
I have loved this series as well as the series you did on Crapelyn Tully. Tywin has always been my favourite ASoIaF character and Catelyn my most hated. I don't get why people hate Tywin simply for being the best at fighting for his place in the world and adore Catelyn for sabotaging her family's efforts to do likewise. Furthermore, Tywin never lets vindictiveness dictate his choices (besides perhaps with Tyrion) but Catelyn's actions seem to be influenced solely by vindictiveness and cruelty most of the time.
What about pycell? He is ultimately the grand mayster with the citadel. And the citadel teaches its vassals to be ultimately loyal to them. Could it be that pycell was a double agent for Tywin and the citadel. And we all know that the citadel is controlled by the faith and the faith of the seven hates all other faiths and they want to destroy them. We know that the north are first men and they worship the old gods. That could be why Rheygar named Lyanna his queen to start a war with the north and to wipe out the old northern gods and the seven can come in and take over.
Anybody remember the movie "Rashomon?" you could probably make a 10-episode miniseries out of the tourney at Harrenhall, with each episode showing the PoV of a different character: Rhaegar, Lyanna, Brandon, Ned, Howland, Ashara, and so on. Parts of each episode would inevitably overlap with parts of other episodes, but always with important differences. I'd watch that.
I'm reasonably sure everyone who read the books and most show watchers would love a 10 episode miniseries on Harrenhal...the format you suggested would be awesome
the format worked okay as an episode of ST:TNG, I think there's gotta be a way to structure things so that the drama is heightened. Maybe have the final PoV be Robert Baratheon, final shot is him declaring war. Anyway, I hope they do something different in style. I like the show, but the spin-offs should have different approaches to telling the stories, to help set them apart from each other.
I watched the first two videos in the series again before watching this brilliant installment. That's how I have to watch all your videos; a refresher first to get the maximum impact.
Can't wait for part 4, great work guys! Very interesting to learn (realize) the amount of time Rhaegar was "missing"...so many seeds of chaos could be sown during that time....makes me wonder where Little Finger was at that point too
Thank you so much...Littlefinger was recovering from almost dying at Brandon's hand in their duel for Catelyn right before the rebellion began...nothing else is documented
The Order of the Green Hand Aww, that's right (face palm)! I was so caught up in video & automatically thought that was a sufficient amount of time to seek revenge...versus as you pointed out, not dying 😉
OMG! Yes! I needed this today, so happy to have another video from this amazing channel, can't wait for the next video. Great job you guys, you deserve more subscribers.
Awesome series, so far......the relationship between Tywin and Rheagar is completely plausible, in fact the story makes more sense with them working together ....it still Bugs me what Rheagar did with Lyanna(it had to be prophetic right? All his other moves were solely influenced by the Prince that was promised why not this?).... What I am curious about is why Cersei didn't have more a familial relationship with Rheagar if she grew up with him? She only seemed to have the night he played harp?
thank you...she did say that many a night she watched him playing his harp with his long elegant fingers or something to that effect, which indicates that she was around him enough to spend "many a night" watching him play his harp, but she was much younger than him and would not be hanging out with him and "his guys"...her role in court would be the same as Sansa's was when Ned was Hand...she saw Joffrey every once in a while but was not a constant companion of his
Found your videos and binge watched. You guys are awesome! All the work and detail you put in is incredible! I'm rethinking everything now! :) well done!
Great video, as always. I always look forward to new videos from you. As a big fan of the books, you always highlight new things I can go back and read more about. Great way to get ready for the next book, whenever that may be! 😃
Rhaegar was a fool. Instead of inciting the Starks and Baratheons by eloping with Lyanna Stark, what he should have done was make an alliance with them along with Tywin in the tourney of Harrenhal. If Rhaegar had the Starks and Baratheons, as well as the Arryns and Tullys, join him and Tywin in taking down Aerys II, then Rhaegar would have had the crown and the realm would have remained stable. Rhaegar wasn't as evil as the Starks and Baratheons claimed. He was a hopeless romantic. He chose his love for Lyanna over his duty to his real wife, Elia Martell, and the realm........
I couldn’t agree more. If Rhaegar had simply retired Elia to Dorne ‘for her health’ the Dornish would’ve been appeased, especially if future-king baby Aegon spent half his time with Elia in the Water Gardens and half of the time on Dragonstone/King’s Landing, meaning the Dornish would have an influence over the future King of the Seven Kingdoms... Then approach Lord Rickard Stark to break his betrothal of Lyanna to Robert, so that Rhaegar can marry her. Rhaegar would’ve had the support of the North as well as the South to enforce a regency.
WOW Congrats on 10K Subscribers! That was fast! Amazing and unique work as always, your story telling is so compelling. I'm looking forward to Tywin P4 and sooo looking forward to more Faceless men! How far out do you guys see your Q&A video and your aforementioned CotF series? Keep being awesome!
Thank you Sir Jim of House Young...we are going to touch on the children a touch more in the Faceless Men series and finish Tywin, then I believe our plan is to tackle the Children and Varys...we like to work on two things at a time because too much of any one thing makes our ADD kick in and we loose interest...and you keep being awesome, Sir Honorary Knight of our Order
I typically don't subscribe to theorists and their proposed ideas because those very same ideas tend to spin their own personal narrative onto a story that isn't their own. You guys however, aren't spinning your own narrative. From my perspective, mostly all of your videos seem to take an objective stance on everything you've covered thus far and going to the most likely outcome, followed by narrative clues in the novels which support your theories. Clues of which, other theorists haven't picked up on. And for that reason, I love your videos. Keep them coming please.
thank you so much...we really try to treat the information as objectively as possible, then try to approach it from the vantage point that a human being thought of all this and there must be a logical reason he decided to everything, whether it be placing stretchmarks on a septa that could only come from childbirth, or making Jon look exactly like Ned, or making Mance the best swordsman we have seen in the story
Instead of the endless theories built on fables, you seem very capable to comprehend the political nature of ASOIAF. Credit where credit is due: Great analysis!
I am just having trouble understanding Lyanna's motivations. She didn't want to marry Robert because she knew he had a bastard daughter names Mya Stone. She feared he would not stay faithful to her. So She falls in love with Raeghar who was already married and had trueborn children. Starks are known for their honor so why go with a married man and I doubt she was just taken because she was known to be a fighter. She would have known the scandal it would have caused because she is the daughter of a great lord engaged to be wed to another great lord. Toss in the fact if she found out what the fate of her father and eldest brother at the hands of the mad king and the countless dead because of her disappearance. I feel like she would despise herself and raegar more than anything else because she would feel the weight of all that and she doesn't strike me as the shallow type but strong and noble.
15 year old girls are not known to have the best judgement when it comes to guys...add to that her willfulness and her not wanting to marry Robert and you could easily see how she lept at the opportunity to get out of marrying Robert and probably figured that because Rhaegar is the crown-prince, she could get away with it because he is more powerful than both Robert and her father
I have to agree, youth tends to come with a lot of.....well stupid choices. But it just seems like such a selfish reason and from how so many spoke of her and her actions I just feel like she would not be that naive to think her actions wont have any after effects on her family.
it was definitely shortsighted, but there are certain aspects of how Ned thinks about her in AGOT that make us think he has a touch of contempt for what she did, stealing the life he would have had from him, as well as costing his brother and father's lives and unknown 1000s more
I think a big piece of the picture is Benjen because he knows something going on. From how close he was to Lyanna and how much he and Ned seemed have so much friction and the reason he joined the watch as soon as Ned came back from the war.
that bothered us for a really long time...Benjen is Ned's only living relative, and when his brother comes home from the war, he immediately leaves to take an oath that will have him gone forever...there is more to it than that...we think he knew, and that he was possibly even the one who helped them into the castle...the Starks take the "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell" rule pretty seriously, which means he could very well have been at home when the rest of the family was going to the wedding, and therefore the one who knew the whole time, which resulted in Ned sending him to the wall...that is entirely speculative because there is very little to go on but that was the most logical reason we could think of for why Benjen would have left in those circumstances
Great series of videos, glad I found this channel. Surprised your channel isn't bigger and I'm interested to see the content you upload when season 7 finally gets here.
Hello, and thank you so much! We started about 6 months ago and are slowly building a subscriber base. It doesn't help that neither one of us are social media savvy! Haha but we are really appreciative of all of the positive feedback we have gotten, and look forward to growing more in the future. We've considered doing some stuff related to the show once it premiers but haven't nAiled down an exact idea yet. If you have any suggestions let us know and thanks for watching! :D
The Order of the Green Hand Well the next season will be out before the next book and even though they don't exactly follow the same path we're likely to see things that will reveal a lot (like seeing the children creating the others/white walkers and jons parantage last season) and that might help piece a few things together. But I also understand if you don't really want to mix the two together much because of how much they're drifting apart. Aside from that I'd like to see your thoughts on old valyria and the doom, I always found it really interesting and the people who've been there since the doom. Maybe also something on Danys childhood that doesn't make sense and Viserys. I'm sure I could think of more but for now I won't make this too long, I'm enjoying going through all your videos like why catelyn sucks she totally does. Just keep up the awesome content and I'll keep watching haha, thanks for the reply.
Watch? more obsess over your videos. I don't agree with every view but very compelling no matter what. Just so you know. Red Team Review ad Preston have a podcast video. In their 2nd video they talk about theories and other GoT youtubers. You guys got a lot of love from us in their comment section.
I've watched/followed a ton of different ASoIaF UA-camrs, and I got to say, you & Preston are the only ones I've seen who interpret the story with such detail. You aren't telling us what you've learned, you're explaining what you've figured out. You're view is almost the polar opposite of Prestons, but the method is the same. Refusing to accept the story presented to us, then building a narrative to better explain the details.
Thank you so much. We’re just a really impatient couple that lacks the ability to wait patiently for George to give us the answers so we decided to try to figure it out ourselves
The Order Of The Green Hand, please throw some light on what could have been Rhaegar's motivation behind showing interest in Lyanna and in risking his chances to the iron throne.
A couple things, First look at the timeline these events happened, the False Spring was ending, Little Finger was being sent home, and he would have in his condition been bogged down due to weather. More than likely at the inn at the crossroads north of Harrenhal. Brandon Stark would have also stopped there in route to meet his father. It's also likely that Leanna and Rhaeger would have met up there, as I do believe she went to him. Little Finger would or could have seen this, and told Brandon what he saw with a twist that also allowed him some measure of revenge in hopes it might lead him to Catelyn as a wife. I'm going to go with the shows version of what happened next because given what we do know of Leanna it makes sense. If she wed Rhaegar she would have wanted it to be in front of a weirwood tree and the nearest one would have been on the Isle of Faces south of Harrenhal in the gods eye. At which point the two would have more than likely continued south off main roads to Dorne in order to begin getting assurances from the Martells in order to prevent a war with Dorne for his marriage to Leanna and to keep his children with Elia legitimate and in the line of succession. Which is why they didn't know or had no chance to stop the rebellion because by the time they heard of it, Leanna's brother and father were already dead and banners had been called. There is a short span of time between Leanna going missing and what happened to her family in the Red Keep. And if Rhaegar were traveling off the main roads and through the forests on their way to Dorne to stay out of sight it would account for the long trip and their lack of knowledge of what was going on.
thank you so much...this past week or two has been a little crazy...our viewership has doubled and the rate of subscribers has to have doubled or tripled...we still can barely believe anyone cares what we think...its surreal
I can't stop laughing from 9:57- 10:08. lol, It's true too. I've been enjoying y'all's videos. Y'all don't just bring clearity, but also levity to A Song of Ice and Fire.
The only thing I'd correct is the fact that it is unlikely for the animosity between the Tyrells and the Martells to have existed at the time of the Tourney of Harrenhal, since Wilas would've been 11 (at most) when it took place and he would have to have had his first tilt before that age. Or if it did exist it was probably not due to what happened to Wilas
I just listened to history of westeros"s Great Empire of the Dawn podcast for the 800th time and just realized the five forts were built before the empire against the lion of night (who i think are the children of the forest)
sometimes we worry that show only fans might have trouble following a lot of our videos because we delve so deep into the books, so we're very happy to hear that show watchers such as yourself enjoy our videos as well
great video as always guys, I loved how it built up and your new found profanity (here at least). IDK why but I felt that this video was small! not short or anything but not your usual amount of content. and since we're talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna, could you guys do a summary video about the whole N+A=J+V and R+L=A and Tower of joy stuff because I was watching those videos and I know that you did it slowly as not to drop all at once and not being 100% rejected by all but I think that you have some holes in your theories or I got really confused (: anyways this comment is getting pretty big so I love the video and can't wait for the next one.
we wanted to finish up historical Tywin and start current Tywin in a new video...it did end up being about 5 minutes shorter than our average video, and there was a large section in the middle of this one that, since there is almost no information about it provided, we were forced to try and fill in the gaps using what we thought would be logical, which admittedly, is not normally our thing...we might revisit some of the mystery surrounding Jon Snow in the future...if you have any questions about it in the meantime, feel free to ask and we'd be more than happy to answer...just try to wait til tomorrow because when we release a video, we get slammed with comments, but it slows down enough by day 2 for me to have time to address whatever questions you have
The Order of the Green Hand thnx. I'll be sure to get back to you in a day or two and I might watch everything and summary it all up and send it which I hope will help you than going to your notes or something.
I need to do a better job of commenting on your videos to help support you two. Your theories are well presented and fun. Quick question...have you watched the newest RTR/Preston Jacobs collaboration podcast where Preston answers questions? Check out question 4. They basically discuss your channel, and your theories, without giving you credit. The RTR guy, Carmine, is true to his personality and is a dick about your theories (moments later he says that his favorite channels are the ones that bring up new ideas, completely contradicting himself), but PJ gives your theories thought and even says he may need to look further into them. Just thought you might like to check that out. Looking forward to your next video!
Hello! Thank you so much, we just checked out the video. Preston was really respectful and I appreciate that. Of all the GOT theorists out there I probably respect him the most, in terms of his ideas and just overall knowledge and approach to his work. If we ever could get a chance to explain our ideas more coherently to him that would be great. The other kid, is well, it wouldn't be fitting for a lady to say what I really think about him, so I will leave it at that. Again, thank you so much for your support and for letting us know about the podcast.
Great video as always. I don't know if there's anyway to message you guys on here so I'll just post my questions here. I like many fans read a lot of essays and theories regarding ASOIAF and look very deeply into it. I've always wondered if Rhaegar met the Ghost of high heart at Summerhall when he used to go there, and I wonder if they spoke about the prince that was promised, and maybe she has a vision and she foresee's Lyanna. And she tells him that their son will be the prince that was promised and his will be the song of ice and fire. Or maybe she doesn't tell him about Lyanna but that his son will be The promised prince. I believe in exchange for the visions she has him write and sing a song for her, "Jenny's song" which also turns out to be the actual song of ice and fire. When people talk about him singing they speak of a sad song which makes people cry, he sings of tears, twilights and the death of kings. And there was said to be a sense of doom to Rhaegar. Would it be crazy if the ghost had told him everything that was to happen, the downfall of house Targaryen, that he would die and thousands with him, the long night would be coming and that in order to save the world he must fulfil the prophecy? I've also wondered a lot about Darkstar, Doran Martell calls him the most dangerous man in Dorne. personally I believe Doran calls him dangerous due to his knowledge of a certain matter. Doran doesn't seem the type to perceive dangerous as something physical. I've read a theory about Darkstar potentially being a squire to one of the kingsguard at the Tower of joy and he witnessed what happened. Wouldn't that make him very dangerous to Doran and Dorne's ambitions, if R+L = J or A or D then it could change everything for Dorne depending on who you believe was born at the ToJ ( I know you guys believe it was Aegon). Sorry about the essay but I thought it would be good to get the thoughts of you guys as you look so deeply into things and It may triggers ideas for future videos which would be awesome !
From the tvtropes article on "honor before reason": Tywin Lannister is no better as he waged war because a son he didn't even like was abducted. Season four revealed that their gold mines had run dry so he couldn't even afford to go to war but he did anyway just so the family wouldn't look weak."
I don't know why the show decided to pretend the Lannisters were poor and their mines empty but they own the second largest port in westeros and their mines are still producing in the books
Maester Aemon might not have yet gone completely blind. So they could maybe have sent letters. Great Video. The seeds of the rebellion (both rebellions no all three) were really planted and pin pointed by you almost to the day as Arys and Tywin fell out. What i'd like to know but is not documented to my knowledge is how the Tywin and Varys dynamic really went down over the years.
I think he was completely blind, because he told Jon that when the news from the south came that his family was destroyed he was old and blind...it seems likely that Tywin wasn't fond of Varys because Pycelle hates him and Pycelle is practically an extension of Tywin
Yes Tywin was none to fond of Varys. Those two are at opposite ends of the chess board. Id like to know how they maneuvered against each other. We know what we have been told but there must be more we have not. Varys must of known of Twins plots against Arys. Superb series. I vote for Illyrio next.
I do like the analysis so far, but I think that when you enter the Game of Thrones era of Tywin's life, Machiavelli would have disapproved of many of his actions, such as starting the war over Tyrion's abduction by Catelyn Stark. But I await your analysis.
yea there is a lot that he was responsible for that got past us the first time through. i don't even know if we're capable of uncovering it all. haha, but yea next video we will finally delve into his actions in the books.
Skeptical Chris are you gonna be using show images? Because I love the illustrations from the books more though a Charles dance image is always welcome that guy just looks badass lol
I always wondered why Tywin never remarried after Joanna's death. He needn't love another woman, but if he's conspiring to depose Aerys, marrying for alliance/securing more soldiers make sense. I remember reading something about him wanting to marry Lysa Arryn to secure a hold on the Knights of the Vale, but I half think that was rumor.
I think what you were thinking of was Jaime being betrothed to Lysa before he was made a KG...it wasn't even publicly announced but the arrangements were made
Jarin Jove I've heard of it. However, I don't give it credence because Cersei and Jaime have Tywin's eyes. Green flecked with gold. They also have curly golden hair, not silver. Plus, if you look at how genes expressed themselves, whenever a Targaryen father has a child with a Non-Targaryen mother and her hair isn't brown, the Targaryen features express themselves every time. Just my opinion though.
I have heard that but can't understand the justification for it...why was he so happy when the twins were born if there was even a possibility they weren't his...he used one of his four lifetime smiles that day
About the Duskendale conspiracy. I see it having went down like the red wedding. Tywin didn't sanction it but he allowed it to happen an moved the king towards duskendale just like the second video says. I don't see tywin giving any "rewards" to duckendale for their behavior. I see it as a situation where something had to be done for the port of duskendale. An Tywins own tax plan made duskendale even less likely to thrive under the new tax code. Sad that all could have been avoided if the bold wasn't the most bad ass knight of all time. He was winning tourneys into his 6th decade of life? He's the greatest sword of the seven kingdoms. If he had a great sword like "lady forlorn" he would be widely considered the greatest of all time. Tywin on the other hand won wars an battles with quill an ink.
the Darklyns weren't going to commit suicide so Tywin could have revenge...Tywin would have needed to make them an offer they couldn't refuse to get someone to do something that stupid
I still think that, seeing the customs of houses Martell and Targaryen, Rheagar having a 2nd wife wouldn't be unheard of, but the rest of the Realm would shun at this action... not the betrothed houses, though
You're ignoring the fact that Rhaegar getting with Lyanna WASN'T AN INSULT to the Martells. Recall that Elia wasn't healthy enough to bear children for Rhaegar after Aegon was born (Elia's second child). Think back to the story of Queen Naerys, who begged Aegon IV (The Unworthy) to allow them to henceforth live as brother and sister, as their maester indicated that another pregnancy would kill Naerys, due to her frail and sick health. Aegon the Unworthy denied her request, and this further inflamed tensions between Aemon and Aegon IV, since Aemon wanted to protect his sister. Conversely, upon hearing that Elia was too sick to bear more children, Rhaegar decided that he would treat her right, and no longer expect her to fulfill the duties of wife, which would possibly kill her. This would NOT upset the Martells - in fact, the Martells would have been GLAD that Rhaegar decided to spare Elia instead of get her pregnant again, which would have risked her life. We're talking about medieval times here, where getting pregnant was sometimes a death sentence for women with various health problems.
it was an insult...even GRRM said so...he said the Martells were angry at Rhaegar's treatment of Elia...its one thing to have a paramour discretely on the side...what he did, with his wife sitting right there is entirely different
think about it...why wasn't Oberyn Martell leading the Dornish spears into battle at the Trident? if he didn't care one way or another he would have been there, like would be his duty to be...that's the equivalent of Ned deciding to stay home and sending the Northmen to war
It was an insult to make Lyanna queen of love and beauty at the tourney. However, it wasn't an insult to have a child with Lyanna. Rhaegar was a crazy mother fucker trying to fulfill prophecy, and he needed 3 children to make it happen. Fortunately, he wasn't crazy enough to try and kill Elia because of that prophecy, since that would have just been cruel.
You are arguing a moot point. "...the Dornishmen didn not support him (Rhaegar) as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger over his treatment of Elia"-GRRM look it up bitch
If they went north how did they make it past the stark host that you mention were on its way to Riverrun. Not to mention Moat calin... There is nothing that points towards that they would be hiding in Winterfell. It's a fun idea, but if that was the fact wouldn't GRRM have given more clues towards that?
did Mace hate the Martells because of the accidental crippling? I thought it was generally accepted that it was Mace's fault for allowing his son who wasn't ready to compete, to compete. didn't his son become good friends with Oberyn after the accident?
Fair enough. We just find it unlikely that he would respond if we were to reach out and were hoping that you might have a suggestion or know what platform he answers people on
I don't think the Hightower have more men than Dorne and The north combined. Rob Stark had around 20,000 men and he didn't even wait for all the banners to be called, so I'd say the north has around 30,000 men. Dorne has around 20,000 men as per GRRM, the Hightowers only have around 10,000-150000 max
Could not Rhaegar have hoped the Starks would join them in opposing Aeries if Rhaegar took up with Lyanna? Especially if she pushed that idea--Lyanna had alwaays been an active girl while growing up and mis-liked the idea of marrying Robert. Rhaegar wouldn't be the 1st man to do something 'asininely stupid' because he was being ruled by his mini-Rhaegar. Moreover, Rhaegar could be thinking that, if the Dornish are not actively helping them, and they could replace them with both the Tyrells (who hate the Dornish as you say) and the Starks (who'd want to support Lyanna) they'd lose non-fighting allies and gain two very powerful allies. As you say, Rhaegar greatly misjudged the Starks.
what do you think about the trailer for the next season where cersei is dtanding on the neck and Jamie is by the fingers and the clues pointing in the show that bran is the night king.
So Tywin and Rhaegar work together and device 2 plots to dispose from Aerys. Tywin mentor Rhaegar and trust him but that at Battle of the trident he decide that Robert Baratheon, a man he didnt know, who have just 1 positive quality (good commander and great warrior), but better known for his drinking and whoring will be better king and husband for Cersei than Rhaegar, a man for whom Tywin was role model and mentor and Tywin know as child. WE know that Rhaegar wanted reforms in the kingdom and he ask his father to ask Tywins help to crush the rebellion but i dont think that he and Tywin device this 2 plots and were working so close together. If they were so close Tywin would participate in battle of the Trydent at Rhaegars site. With Tywins man and military experience would have easily win the battle and after they crush the rebells they could remove Aerys. In Dance of Dragons Jon Konnigton state that Elia was very ill after Aegons burth and stayed in bed for 6 monts and that she was dying. Tywin definitely knew that from Picell who was chief physician to the royal family. Why Tywin will wait the outcome of the Battle at the Trident to make a move - if he and Rhaegar had such relationship as you sad. Woudnt be better for him to help Rhaegar win the battle and than to depose Aerys - Rhaegar would make Tywin hand, Rhaegar knew the man and his work, he woudnt have better chose for this post and after Elia death he would marry for Cersei. If he and Lyanna had a relationship in books as in GOT he still could have her as paramour. Tywin was practical man - he never ask Robert to stop cheating Cersei (as far as we know). Rhaegar didnt have single mistress before Lyanna, Robert already have 2 bastards - Gendry and Mia Stone and many mistresses. If you were Tywin which man you will chose - Rhaegar or Robert. In this theory for Rhaegar and Tywin have too many "if".
Well Elia stayed in bed 6 months after Rhaenys's birth not Aegon's And when she gave birth to Aegon she was close to death but she survived and couldn't bear anymore bcz if she did it would means her death So she wasn't dying actually just having big problems with pregnacity
My favorite Retcon theory, like the Bourgies, is Tywin subconsciously KNEW of his Twins having incest but ignored it Openly, as it secretly cemented the pure Lannister dynasty blood on the throne as he was expecting to be the hand after Robert became king. He gave up his family's marrying into the Royal throne thru Rhaegar becoming king (&Aerys) had shunned Cersei (chose Elia & Lyanna) preventing a best combination of family blood Lannister & Targaryen for Tywin thus reneging on his partnered plotting with Rheagar. So Tywin after learning of Rhaegar's loss slaughtered Rhaegars kids by Elia and if he'd know about Lyanna, Jon Snow too. He wasn't just doing it for Robert Baratheon, but was setting up the Lannister family to be next inline on the throne by marrying Cersei officially to Robert. So what if his grandkids were seen as Baratheons, they could be wed into Lannister cousins and entangle the throne with Lannister blood eventually getting a Lannister by name elevated to throne. Jon Arryn getting the Hand's position thwarted that again, trusted Pycelle exposing Arryn to Tywin as learning of Cersei & Jaime, where Tywin would have left it alone ignored as the Hand. Little Finger's plots being unknown by all(but he might have seen the power play Tywin with his kids cuckolding in Kingslanding) but worked in Tywin's favor as Pycelle helped in the speedy death of poisoned Jon Arryn. Lannister & Baratheon family blood mix was probably the least choice Tywin would want, learned of the disrespect whoring by King Robert and he was shunned as the Hand, - 'So Cuckold away fine, I don't know about it' by his children was fine with Tywin as he then expected once they became Kings he would regain his Royal powers as the Hand. That seemed Delicious Longterm Machevellian to me, accepting his twins incest for later family power gains by marrying Cersei to any king or prince. Tywin isn't a HOLY Seven man to be so abhorrent of Bro-Sis incest when the most powerful Targaryens did it and only generations of it produced Madness or still births. It would only taint his family if publicly known exposed.
Now it's confusing me again. There is Rhaegar's son from Elia named Aegon, and you claim the Aegon who is alive in ASOIAF is actually Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.
yes Aegon was the son of Elia and Rhaegar. We think he also had a son with Lyanna but clearly he wouldn't name him Aegon...We believe Young Griff, as he goes by in the books, is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and am not sure what his real name is, maybe Aemon or Jahaerys, so for simplicity sake we just say Aegon. The reason he also goes by Aegon is because the story that is told is that he is Elia's son and was saved during the sack of KL by Varys. We cite reasons why this seems unlikely to us in our R+L=Aegon playlist, video 2.
What makes you think House Hightower could possibly field anywhere near a force the size of both what the North and Dorne could field? I estimate (and most other guesses have been in the same ballpark that) they might be able to field no more than 25,000 troops and probably closer to 15,000 which I'll admit is quite substantial but I have no reason to believe Dorne couldn't raise 30,000 troops if it needed to and GRRM has said their actual strength is similar to that of the North and Torrhen Stark raised an army of 30,000 before he knelt to Aegon the Conqueror (Robb's army was hastily assembled without time for troops to be gathered from the more remote parts of the North). For your statement to be accurate the Hightower army would need to number above 60,000 men and the only other to people in Westeros theoretically capable of fielding larger armies are Mace Tyrell (a and in this scenario significantly more than half his army would be those same Hightower troops) and the King (and that's only theoretical after all if the King goes to war its most likely going to be a civil war and a large percentage of his theoretical strength will be opposing him or staying home). If the Hightowers were that strong they would be the lords of the Reach and the Tyrells would be their vassals.
it is said that the Hightowers can field 3x as many men as any other Tyrell bannerman...Doran Martell tells everyone they can field 20,000 men but admits to Arianne that they'd be lucky to field half that, and the North can field 18,000 (if Robb's army is any indication...the Reach can field well over 100,000 as it is by far the most populous of the Kingdoms so it seems entirely reasonable that the Hightowers could raise 30,000+ based on the information given
Doran claims Dorne can field 50,000 and admits to Arianne that that is an inflated figure to make the conquest of Dorne seem more prestigious than it was but inflating the number can only go so far (after all this becomes a disinformation effort the Martell's try to maintain and must be kept within reason to be plausible). Robb's army was a hastily assembled force not the full strength of the North if it were how did the Sir Rodrick assemble a force to try and retake Winterfell or Stannis get 3,000 Mountain Clansmen? Edit: Renly only had around 100,000 troops after assembling both the Reach and the Stormlander armies (80,000 at Bitterbridge, 10,000 at Highgarden and claimed he could bring 100,000 down on Stannis at Storm's End), I'd guess the Reach component of that army would number in the 70,000 range, maybe less. Other powerful Lords (who aren't Lords Paramount or King) usually only field armies in the range of several thousand e.g. House Bolton went back North with around 4,000 mostly Dreadfort men (and Roose made sure he minimised their losses), House Frey sent 4,000 men to war, the Lords Declarant (the 6 most powerful Vale lords) assembled 20,000 troops (probably less than their full potential strength but still only 3,000-3,500 each), House Reyne only mustered 2,000 troops to defend itself from Tywin, and House Darklyn and Mooten combined raised 3,000 men at the time of Aegon's Conquest and the Darlyn's were petty Kings in their own right at one stage. Three times the largest of these is still only 12,000 men and putting that way I'd revise down my own estimate of the Hightower's strength to under 20,000 (possibly substantially lower), which still puts them in a league of their own, but only somewhere above the other major houses in each kingdom and definitely below the Lords Paramount.
Maybe I am crazy, but a wedding between the children of two Lords, should've Aerys have been in attendance per protocol? Or was he too old by that time?
Most GoT pages recycle the same theories, but your perspective is the most unique
Thank you
Silly Rabbit, Green Hand is doing an amazing job of investigating the subtle clues and brush strokes of the author. It's an exceedingly complex story and that's precisely why millions adore Sherlocking through the material. I hope you'll complete the books and the show. We'll have two seperate stories set within Westeros. Best regards
Silly Rabbit...Thank you so much...we haven't directly done a video on the Children yet...we have talked about them definitely coming down on the side of death in this war for life itself, as Mel puts it...it's really complex...much too complex for the comment section, but we will do videos directly covering the children sometime in the near future
Queen of Thorns...thank you for being awesome
The Order of the Green Hand yeah, instead of the endless theories built on fables, you seem very capable to comprehend the political nature of ASOIAF. Credit where credit is due: Great analysis!
I think one *major* flaw in Tywin _ and I mean from a *Machiavellian* point of view _ is how he raises his children.
In the world of Westeros, which so closely resembles medieval Europe, inheritance is a big deal, the key to power. Tywin shows his awareness of this when he tries to get Cersei married to Prince Rhaegar.
Given this, you would expect such a careful and calculating great lord to plan the upbringing of his children _ *all* of them _ to ensure the safeguarding of his legacy.
Even if, as is often said, he was not by nature the fatherly type, you would expect him to recognise this fact and compensate for it with the same self-discipline he brings to everything else.
You would at least expect him to plan the development of their characters so that they would be of maximum service to House Lannister in their adult lives.
Instead, as we see, he is hopelessly off-beam with all of them, indulging the elder two, mistreating Tyrion, and in all three cases, failing utterly to comprehend their true characters.
The incestuous relationship of Jaime and Cersei could hardly have happened if their father had taken any interest in their lives.
It is true that Jaime grows up to be a great warrior (before getting his hand cut off), but I don't think this is due to any special effort or achievement by Tywin.
As for Tyrion, his father fails to fully appreciate that his younger son has inherited his brains and effectiveness _ because he fails to apply his usual self-discipline and instead lets his emotions about his dead wife, Tyrion's mother, run riot.
And I do not accept all this blather about Aerys possibly being Tyrion's father as an excuse for Tywin _ at least, not an excuse in *Machiavellian* terms.
When Tyrion was born and his mother died, Tywin had two decisions to make:
(1) Would he accept the baby as his true son?
(2) Would he live with the fact of the boy being a dwarf, in a world which would despise this?
If Tywin had decided to let the baby have a fatal "accident", he would certainly have got away with it.
So once he had made his decision to raise Tyrion as his son and potential heir, the Machiavellian thing to do was _ *stick to it* .
This he failed to do, fighting his own decision throughout Tyrion's life.
Austin Kassman Thanks!
Sorry for such a late reply, I was rewatching this series and had to add to what you have said. I have come to understand the reason that tywin could not raise his children in the most Machiavellian way is because he was not only the hand of the king, but also warden of the west. Each title on it's own would leave little time to be a father, much less holding both at once would make it nearly impossible. In all honesty, I think he did a better job than anyone else could have, given the constraints and responsibilities of his lordly duties. On the issue of Jaime and cersei's incestuous relationship, this probably was not that big of a deal to tywin. While publicly he would be displeased by the idea of his twin son and daughter being in love/lust with one another. Deep down he probably understood the fact that they are mirror images of each other, and the fact that they are the visual personification of the strength and beauty of house Lannister, he probably thought that if they were in love/lust with one another they would keep each other as a priority, in turn keeping house Lannister as a priority. Now the situation with Tyrion. The last thing a man of tywins gumption would want to do is be seen as a cuckold(even if it was the king himself who made him said cuckold.) So there is one reason not to just kill Tyrion(because if he did kill Tyrion he would have to profess that he had been cuckolded. Added to that is the fact that he had no other proof than his own word). The other reason(and his least Machiavellian trait) was because of his unconditional love for Joanna. I imagine tywin decided to raise Tyrion as his own because of the fact that Tyrion was Joanna's child(this is also why he would not have had Tyrion die in a fatal accident). Considering the fact that Jaime was the heir to casterly rock for the first 11 or 12 years of tyrion's life, tywin was not worried about Tyrion inheriting his family's castle and the titles that came with it. Tyrion only became heir in theory at the age of 11 or 12 once Jaime was named a knight of the KG(but I am sure tywin had plans to make sure Tyrion would never inherit casterly rock, no matter the fact that he was Joanna's child). All in all, I actually think tywin did a pretty good job of raising his/Joanna's children in a Machiavellian way, especially considering all his lordly duties and responsibilities. However, Tywin's biggest weakness and least Machiavellian trait was his blind love for Joanna.
I also want to add that Tywin usually let a lot of conflicts sort themselves out. And when he absolutely had to intervene, he did it as covertly as possible. He only really put his name on actions that would make his house more respected in the face of blatant disrespect. He would also only take these actions if he had the ability to crush his enemies entirely. So when it seems as though he is second guessing himself, he is really just waiting for the most opportune time to intervene. When those times would arise he would act swiftly and dole out all reprimanding at once. The most Machiavellian thing tywin never did was kill Tyrion in his infancy. But as I stated before I think he let Tyrion live because of his love for Joanna. However, I will expound upon that and say, he made tyrion's life as much of a living hell as he could because of the fact that aerys was tyrion's father.
And Tyrion was the one to assassinate him! So it just goes to show you how dangerous being a bad father can be!
I stole this from the Iron Druid Chronicles but it works here, "No one's that Machiavellian not even Machiavelli!"
"Im going to assume some shit went down.."
Perfectly summed up right there! lol!!
Gaming With A White Guy love this line
we wrestled with that wording because we normally try not to use profanity if it can be avoided, but there was no better way we could think of to make that point
sometimes you just gotta swear I love you guys dry humor maybe because I'm British lol
DoubleO88 If you're British then spell it "humour" 😁. Just messing lol.
Thanks DoubleO88...sometimes I worry that our sarcasm isn't as obvious as I think it is...we had to stop using pop culture stuff as often as we did originally because people didn't get it...when I used the Lady's Man reference it went over the head of too many people and they thought we were being racist, then it happened again with The Wire so we hung it up all together
I laughed really hard at the rhaegar swinging Lyanna over his shoulder part, I just pictured him riding in at high speed, grabbing lyanna, and shouting something like "rhaegar strikes again!"
TheAnnouncer xD omg im just imagening like a Addam West batman sound to that lmao
"RHAEGAR AWAY" 😂😂😂
Hahaha my mental image of that was great. I imagined him like dirk dastardly from wacky races.
I love that line. "Rhaegar did something that many men have done before him and many men have done after him. He did something assininely stupid over a girl."
we've all done it
I wonder if someday GRRM will watch these vids and be happy.
That would be pretty much the greatest thing ever
George RR should hire you guys! This is the BEST SERIES EVER ON GOT! Talk bout connecting the dots. This breakdown makes the most sense on what happened. Especially Rhegar and Lyana.
I pray for that everyday.!
who wants a Tourney of Harrenhall GRRM novel?
I'm pretty sure everyone does...AFTER TWOW and ADOS come out
JG R I'd take a series of graphic novels
The Order of the Green Hand let's hope GRR lives to a hundred then
I would love a movie based on it directed by D and D guided by GRRM. I believe that would be amazing
Brody Ginn This comment aged well
They don’t call him TyWIN for no reason!
I love these videos, Tywin is definitely one of my favorite characters 😊
Tywin is completely fascinating...this was originally going to be one video then we started delving deeper and found so much more than we even thought was possible to talk about and now it looks like its going to be 5 videos
The Order of the Green Hand Wow 5 videos! You deserve more than 9k subscribers that's for sure ... ☺
1, then 5 vids? you guys are really GRRM's fans! you even raise the # of parts because depth!
Thank both of you so much...unfortunately that almost always seems to be the case...whatever plans we make to try and schedule videos always ends up taking longer than expected and requiring more videos than expected
The best videos on the best character in the series. I like when you make assumptions you base them off logic and what that character would most probably do in that situation.
This is exactly why this channel is growing. Keep it up Micheal Douglas and his new girl.
Thank you so much
thats funny you say that, everyone says my dad looks like michael douglas, and now you're telling me ser green hand sounds like him. not sure what that means but thought i would share. thanks !
-lady gh
"He does something asininely stupid over a girl." The only thing that is guaranteed with any man.
I dont bother listening to any other "theorists" anymore. It is inconsequential. I patiently wait for your releases since only YOU make sense anymore. Keep up the excellent work, and Im positive i speak for everybody when I say this, thank you.
thank you...we had a rough year, and didn't get as much content out as we wanted to...m'lady's mother had a pretty serious stroke, and we've been part/full time caregivers on top of everything else...but that situation has finally settled down and we're going to do our best not to make you wait too long for our new videos...we have at least 10 theories backed up that need to be fully flushed out and made into videos/series right now and we're itching to see what you guys think
Great videos! I think I've watched them all now. The best analysis out there. I wanted to point out that another reason Tywin needed to hedge his bets in the final events of Robert's Rebellion is that his son and heir was a hostage of the king. Any overt move against the king would have surely led to Jaime's fiery demise. We know from later conversations that Tywin always held out hope that Jamie could eventually be discharged from the King's Guard to become Lord of Casterly Rock, since he loathed the notion of Aerys's suspected bastard (Tyrion) taking his own mantle when he was gone.
Thank you so much...and very true...sometimes when you are trying to explain all these shadowy maneuvers you get so focused on what is going on behind the scenes that you forget to mention what is right out front, but if Tywin publicly moved against the Targaryens, Jaime would certainly have suffered a heinous death
YES...thank you for making my Sunday night. I wish your videos were as long as the show! I've come to look forward to them as much!
Thank you for being such an awesome fan
Honestly when I saw your tywin video I didn't expect something so simple, yet so brilliant. George made it so you'd never think of those two at the same time, but when you do it makes so much sense.
thank you ! yea the information isn't exactly ground breaking, but in a way it seems like something that gets missed, even by us initially.
Yes! I had just checked your channel not 20 minutes ago to see if maybe UA-cam didn't notify me. Great way to end a Sunday night. Thanks for the hard work y'all put into each video!
Thank you so much for watching
Another great video guys! I gotta say honestly, the whole Tywin setting things up to win either way, basically every time he engages risk, is: brilliant, makes perfect sense, blew my mind, and is totally a GRRM thing to do ... I'm convinced ya'll are onto a few things other theorists haven't cracked yet! Maybe you two should be a real-life crime solving unit as, you really do bring light onto details nobody else saw! Please keep the videos coming!
Thank you Clint...maybe we'll get our PI licenses and start our own unsolved mysteries
Never have I ever clicked on a video so fast
hope you enjoyed
you guys put so much work into your videos! it is truely impressive, I'm learning so many much new stuff in every video you guys make. and I thought I was a true asoiaf fan lol. keep up the great work!!!
Thank you so much...we will
This is probably my favorite video series you've done (although the one about Ned already being married is close in the running). Hadn't thought about Tywin conspiring with Rhaegar before, but with how you lay everything out it makes sense. It is something Tywin would do, especially if the endgame was paying the Mad King back. Can't wait for the next part.
And thanks for following me on Twitter
Thank you so much...Tywin is is not necessarily a good man, but he is incredibly impressive...he is the ultimate puppet master
ASOIAF freak here: I really appreciate how quickly your two put out your videos. Your perspective is fresh and has inspired another re-read of the novels. Thanks for bringing more clarity and keep up the good work!
thank you!!
thank you...we have worked for a while now to figure out a system that will allow us to create videos faster and we're getting better at it as we go
For someone who's family and legacy where of utmost importance to him, he was absolutely AWFUL at raising a family or ensuring his children understood their places in his legacy. He never really understood aby of hos children (other than recognizing Tyrion being his mini-me but rejecting that). So for all his low cunning and absolute ruthless ambition, his greatest weakness was his blindness towards his family
i have literally stopped watching any other asoif theory pages. you guys are amazing and put so much thought into your videos its always worth the wait !!! keep rocking!
Thank you so much...we will certainly try
Oberyn crippling Willas Tyrell happened after the rebellion, Willas was born 270-275 AC.
Yep. This is what happens when I don't edit ser green hands research ... thank you in any event the tyrells and martells hate each other so the logic is still valid haha
Amazing as always. presented with undeniable quality. Love the editing and visuals. Also, both of your voices are really pleasant. Informative and entertaining.
can't wait for the next.
Love yous guys
Thank you Mike, we really appreciate it.! :D
I have loved this series as well as the series you did on Crapelyn Tully. Tywin has always been my favourite ASoIaF character and Catelyn my most hated. I don't get why people hate Tywin simply for being the best at fighting for his place in the world and adore Catelyn for sabotaging her family's efforts to do likewise. Furthermore, Tywin never lets vindictiveness dictate his choices (besides perhaps with Tyrion) but Catelyn's actions seem to be influenced solely by vindictiveness and cruelty most of the time.
I just find Tywin very impressive and Catelyn just creates chaos everywhere she goes
What about pycell? He is ultimately the grand mayster with the citadel. And the citadel teaches its vassals to be ultimately loyal to them. Could it be that pycell was a double agent for Tywin and the citadel. And we all know that the citadel is controlled by the faith and the faith of the seven hates all other faiths and they want to destroy them. We know that the north are first men and they worship the old gods. That could be why Rheygar named Lyanna his queen to start a war with the north and to wipe out the old northern gods and the seven can come in and take over.
Anybody remember the movie "Rashomon?" you could probably make a 10-episode miniseries out of the tourney at Harrenhall, with each episode showing the PoV of a different character: Rhaegar, Lyanna, Brandon, Ned, Howland, Ashara, and so on. Parts of each episode would inevitably overlap with parts of other episodes, but always with important differences. I'd watch that.
I'm reasonably sure everyone who read the books and most show watchers would love a 10 episode miniseries on Harrenhal...the format you suggested would be awesome
the format worked okay as an episode of ST:TNG, I think there's gotta be a way to structure things so that the drama is heightened. Maybe have the final PoV be Robert Baratheon, final shot is him declaring war. Anyway, I hope they do something different in style. I like the show, but the spin-offs should have different approaches to telling the stories, to help set them apart from each other.
I watched the first two videos in the series again before watching this brilliant installment. That's how I have to watch all your videos; a refresher first to get the maximum impact.
Thank you kindly good sir
order of the green hand might be the best in depth analysis on you tube. very enlightening stuff yah do.
thank you!
Can't wait for part 4, great work guys! Very interesting to learn (realize) the amount of time Rhaegar was "missing"...so many seeds of chaos could be sown during that time....makes me wonder where Little Finger was at that point too
Thank you so much...Littlefinger was recovering from almost dying at Brandon's hand in their duel for Catelyn right before the rebellion began...nothing else is documented
The Order of the Green Hand Aww, that's right (face palm)! I was so caught up in video & automatically thought that was a sufficient amount of time to seek revenge...versus as you pointed out, not dying 😉
it does seem that not dying would take precedent over any scheming he might have wanted to do
Congratulations on passing the 10,000 subscriber mark! You guys deserve it 100 times over!
Thank you so much
Excellent production. Informative and entertaining. Thank you.
thank you so much
This is the only channel I press like first before I watch!!
Thank you so much
OMG! Yes! I needed this today, so happy to have another video from this amazing channel, can't wait for the next video.
Great job you guys, you deserve more subscribers.
Thank you so much...comments like that are very much appreciated
Awesome series, so far......the relationship between Tywin and Rheagar is completely plausible, in fact the story makes more sense with them working together ....it still Bugs me what Rheagar did with Lyanna(it had to be prophetic right? All his other moves were solely influenced by the Prince that was promised why not this?).... What I am curious about is why Cersei didn't have more a familial relationship with Rheagar if she grew up with him? She only seemed to have the night he played harp?
thank you...she did say that many a night she watched him playing his harp with his long elegant fingers or something to that effect, which indicates that she was around him enough to spend "many a night" watching him play his harp, but she was much younger than him and would not be hanging out with him and "his guys"...her role in court would be the same as Sansa's was when Ned was Hand...she saw Joffrey every once in a while but was not a constant companion of his
Was in a sad mood but you have added a measure of joy towards my day. Thanks as always!
glad we could brighten up your day
Found your videos and binge watched. You guys are awesome! All the work and detail you put in is incredible! I'm rethinking everything now! :) well done!
Thank you
Great video, as always. I always look forward to new videos from you. As a big fan of the books, you always highlight new things I can go back and read more about. Great way to get ready for the next book, whenever that may be! 😃
Thank you so much Chandler
The Order of the Green Hand You're welcome!
you are one of my favorite got channels I look forward to your videos and would love to see more frequent posts
thank you!!! we are going to have one out on monday and then the following week we should have 2-3
Rhaegar was a fool. Instead of inciting the Starks and Baratheons by eloping with Lyanna Stark, what he should have done was make an alliance with them along with Tywin in the tourney of Harrenhal. If Rhaegar had the Starks and Baratheons, as well as the Arryns and Tullys, join him and Tywin in taking down Aerys II, then Rhaegar would have had the crown and the realm would have remained stable. Rhaegar wasn't as evil as the Starks and Baratheons claimed. He was a hopeless romantic. He chose his love for Lyanna over his duty to his real wife, Elia Martell, and the realm........
I couldn’t agree more. If Rhaegar had simply retired Elia to Dorne ‘for her health’ the Dornish would’ve been appeased, especially if future-king baby Aegon spent half his time with Elia in the Water Gardens and half of the time on Dragonstone/King’s Landing, meaning the Dornish would have an influence over the future King of the Seven Kingdoms... Then approach Lord Rickard Stark to break his betrothal of Lyanna to Robert, so that Rhaegar can marry her. Rhaegar would’ve had the support of the North as well as the South to enforce a regency.
@@mellowenglishgal Or he could have just gone full Aegon the First and had two wives.
WOW Congrats on 10K Subscribers! That was fast! Amazing and unique work as always, your story telling is so compelling. I'm looking forward to Tywin P4 and sooo looking forward to more Faceless men! How far out do you guys see your Q&A video and your aforementioned CotF series? Keep being awesome!
Thank you Sir Jim of House Young...we are going to touch on the children a touch more in the Faceless Men series and finish Tywin, then I believe our plan is to tackle the Children and Varys...we like to work on two things at a time because too much of any one thing makes our ADD kick in and we loose interest...and you keep being awesome, Sir Honorary Knight of our Order
I typically don't subscribe to theorists and their proposed ideas because those very same ideas tend to spin their own personal narrative onto a story that isn't their own. You guys however, aren't spinning your own narrative. From my perspective, mostly all of your videos seem to take an objective stance on everything you've covered thus far and going to the most likely outcome, followed by narrative clues in the novels which support your theories. Clues of which, other theorists haven't picked up on. And for that reason, I love your videos. Keep them coming please.
thank you so much...we really try to treat the information as objectively as possible, then try to approach it from the vantage point that a human being thought of all this and there must be a logical reason he decided to everything, whether it be placing stretchmarks on a septa that could only come from childbirth, or making Jon look exactly like Ned, or making Mance the best swordsman we have seen in the story
Instead of the endless theories built on fables, you seem very capable to comprehend the political nature of ASOIAF. Credit where credit is due: Great analysis!
I am just having trouble understanding Lyanna's motivations. She didn't want to marry Robert because she knew he had a bastard daughter names Mya Stone. She feared he would not stay faithful to her. So She falls in love with Raeghar who was already married and had trueborn children. Starks are known for their honor so why go with a married man and I doubt she was just taken because she was known to be a fighter. She would have known the scandal it would have caused because she is the daughter of a great lord engaged to be wed to another great lord. Toss in the fact if she found out what the fate of her father and eldest brother at the hands of the mad king and the countless dead because of her disappearance. I feel like she would despise herself and raegar more than anything else because she would feel the weight of all that and she doesn't strike me as the shallow type but strong and noble.
15 year old girls are not known to have the best judgement when it comes to guys...add to that her willfulness and her not wanting to marry Robert and you could easily see how she lept at the opportunity to get out of marrying Robert and probably figured that because Rhaegar is the crown-prince, she could get away with it because he is more powerful than both Robert and her father
I have to agree, youth tends to come with a lot of.....well stupid choices. But it just seems like such a selfish reason and from how so many spoke of her and her actions I just feel like she would not be that naive to think her actions wont have any after effects on her family.
it was definitely shortsighted, but there are certain aspects of how Ned thinks about her in AGOT that make us think he has a touch of contempt for what she did, stealing the life he would have had from him, as well as costing his brother and father's lives and unknown 1000s more
I think a big piece of the picture is Benjen because he knows something going on. From how close he was to Lyanna and how much he and Ned seemed have so much friction and the reason he joined the watch as soon as Ned came back from the war.
that bothered us for a really long time...Benjen is Ned's only living relative, and when his brother comes home from the war, he immediately leaves to take an oath that will have him gone forever...there is more to it than that...we think he knew, and that he was possibly even the one who helped them into the castle...the Starks take the "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell" rule pretty seriously, which means he could very well have been at home when the rest of the family was going to the wedding, and therefore the one who knew the whole time, which resulted in Ned sending him to the wall...that is entirely speculative because there is very little to go on but that was the most logical reason we could think of for why Benjen would have left in those circumstances
Great series of videos, glad I found this channel. Surprised your channel isn't bigger and I'm interested to see the content you upload when season 7 finally gets here.
Hello, and thank you so much! We started about 6 months ago and are slowly building a subscriber base. It doesn't help that neither one of us are social media savvy! Haha but we are really appreciative of all of the positive feedback we have gotten, and look forward to growing more in the future. We've considered doing some stuff related to the show once it premiers but haven't nAiled down an exact idea yet. If you have any suggestions let us know and thanks for watching! :D
The Order of the Green Hand Well the next season will be out before the next book and even though they don't exactly follow the same path we're likely to see things that will reveal a lot (like seeing the children creating the others/white walkers and jons parantage last season) and that might help piece a few things together. But I also understand if you don't really want to mix the two together much because of how much they're drifting apart. Aside from that I'd like to see your thoughts on old valyria and the doom, I always found it really interesting and the people who've been there since the doom. Maybe also something on Danys childhood that doesn't make sense and Viserys.
I'm sure I could think of more but for now I won't make this too long, I'm enjoying going through all your videos like why catelyn sucks she totally does. Just keep up the awesome content and I'll keep watching haha, thanks for the reply.
thanks so much! do you really think season 7 will be out before the books??? :(
Why does Prince remind me so much of Rhaegar? Everytime I listen to purple rain I imagine Rhaegar singing it to Lyanna
that just literally made me laugh out loud
As always great video that gets you thinking. Not just a cookie cutter channel. Thank you!
thank you, Sir Scottie, for watching
Watch? more obsess over your videos. I don't agree with every view but very compelling no matter what. Just so you know. Red Team Review ad Preston have a podcast video. In their 2nd video they talk about theories and other GoT youtubers. You guys got a lot of love from us in their comment section.
much appreciated...its always nice to hear
I absolutely love yous guys' theories!
Thank you so much
I've watched/followed a ton of different ASoIaF UA-camrs, and I got to say, you & Preston are the only ones I've seen who interpret the story with such detail. You aren't telling us what you've learned, you're explaining what you've figured out.
You're view is almost the polar opposite of Prestons, but the method is the same. Refusing to accept the story presented to us,
then building a narrative to better explain the details.
Thank you so much. We’re just a really impatient couple that lacks the ability to wait patiently for George to give us the answers so we decided to try to figure it out ourselves
The Order Of The Green Hand, please throw some light on what could have been Rhaegar's motivation behind showing interest in Lyanna and in risking his chances to the iron throne.
this was a Tywin video and we didn't want to drift too far from connections to Tywin in it but Rhaegar is going to get a video or ten at some point
Abhishek Nagar She was hot. Should I say more?
This is a really good video Tywin has become one of my favourite characters now completely changed my view of GoT
Thank you so much
A couple things, First look at the timeline these events happened, the False Spring was ending, Little Finger was being sent home, and he would have in his condition been bogged down due to weather. More than likely at the inn at the crossroads north of Harrenhal. Brandon Stark would have also stopped there in route to meet his father. It's also likely that Leanna and Rhaeger would have met up there, as I do believe she went to him. Little Finger would or could have seen this, and told Brandon what he saw with a twist that also allowed him some measure of revenge in hopes it might lead him to Catelyn as a wife.
I'm going to go with the shows version of what happened next because given what we do know of Leanna it makes sense. If she wed Rhaegar she would have wanted it to be in front of a weirwood tree and the nearest one would have been on the Isle of Faces south of Harrenhal in the gods eye. At which point the two would have more than likely continued south off main roads to Dorne in order to begin getting assurances from the Martells in order to prevent a war with Dorne for his marriage to Leanna and to keep his children with Elia legitimate and in the line of succession.
Which is why they didn't know or had no chance to stop the rebellion because by the time they heard of it, Leanna's brother and father were already dead and banners had been called. There is a short span of time between Leanna going missing and what happened to her family in the Red Keep. And if Rhaegar were traveling off the main roads and through the forests on their way to Dorne to stay out of sight it would account for the long trip and their lack of knowledge of what was going on.
Almost 10k subs guys congrats, you are growing fast.
thank you so much...this past week or two has been a little crazy...our viewership has doubled and the rate of subscribers has to have doubled or tripled...we still can barely believe anyone cares what we think...its surreal
hey song name? and congratz
Doing something stupid is called boneheaded. When you do something stupid for love, it's bonerheaded. Rhaegar's actions were totally bonerheaded.
I can't stop laughing from 9:57- 10:08. lol, It's true too. I've been enjoying y'all's videos. Y'all don't just bring clearity, but also levity to A Song of Ice and Fire.
+Robert W thank you. We do what we can. Sorry about the audio in this playlist. We were a little sick and really struggled on these
yall are awesome!!!!! thanks for another excellent video!!!!
love this.......!!!
Thank you!
The only thing I'd correct is the fact that it is unlikely for the animosity between the Tyrells and the Martells to have existed at the time of the Tourney of Harrenhal, since Wilas would've been 11 (at most) when it took place and he would have to have had his first tilt before that age. Or if it did exist it was probably not due to what happened to Wilas
thanks for the new content guys
Thank you for watching
I just listened to history of westeros"s Great Empire of the Dawn podcast for the 800th time and just realized the five forts were built before the empire against the lion of night (who i think are the children of the forest)
Your videos are very informative for us show only fans. (Rhaeghar's a pretty fella!)
Enjoy your work, Thanx!
sometimes we worry that show only fans might have trouble following a lot of our videos because we delve so deep into the books, so we're very happy to hear that show watchers such as yourself enjoy our videos as well
great video as always guys, I loved how it built up and your new found profanity (here at least). IDK why but I felt that this video was small! not short or anything but not your usual amount of content. and since we're talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna, could you guys do a summary video about the whole N+A=J+V and R+L=A and Tower of joy stuff because I was watching those videos and I know that you did it slowly as not to drop all at once and not being 100% rejected by all but I think that you have some holes in your theories or I got really confused (: anyways this comment is getting pretty big so I love the video and can't wait for the next one.
we wanted to finish up historical Tywin and start current Tywin in a new video...it did end up being about 5 minutes shorter than our average video, and there was a large section in the middle of this one that, since there is almost no information about it provided, we were forced to try and fill in the gaps using what we thought would be logical, which admittedly, is not normally our thing...we might revisit some of the mystery surrounding Jon Snow in the future...if you have any questions about it in the meantime, feel free to ask and we'd be more than happy to answer...just try to wait til tomorrow because when we release a video, we get slammed with comments, but it slows down enough by day 2 for me to have time to address whatever questions you have
The Order of the Green Hand thnx. I'll be sure to get back to you in a day or two and I might watch everything and summary it all up and send it which I hope will help you than going to your notes or something.
sounds good...thanks again
I need to do a better job of commenting on your videos to help support you two. Your theories are well presented and fun. Quick question...have you watched the newest RTR/Preston Jacobs collaboration podcast where Preston answers questions? Check out question 4. They basically discuss your channel, and your theories, without giving you credit. The RTR guy, Carmine, is true to his personality and is a dick about your theories (moments later he says that his favorite channels are the ones that bring up new ideas, completely contradicting himself), but PJ gives your theories thought and even says he may need to look further into them. Just thought you might like to check that out. Looking forward to your next video!
Hello! Thank you so much, we just checked out the video. Preston was really respectful and I appreciate that. Of all the GOT theorists out there I probably respect him the most, in terms of his ideas and just overall knowledge and approach to his work. If we ever could get a chance to explain our ideas more coherently to him that would be great. The other kid, is well, it wouldn't be fitting for a lady to say what I really think about him, so I will leave it at that. Again, thank you so much for your support and for letting us know about the podcast.
Great video as always. I don't know if there's anyway to message you guys on here so I'll just post my questions here. I like many fans read a lot of essays and theories regarding ASOIAF and look very deeply into it. I've always wondered if Rhaegar met the Ghost of high heart at Summerhall when he used to go there, and I wonder if they spoke about the prince that was promised, and maybe she has a vision and she foresee's Lyanna. And she tells him that their son will be the prince that was promised and his will be the song of ice and fire. Or maybe she doesn't tell him about Lyanna but that his son will be The promised prince. I believe in exchange for the visions she has him write and sing a song for her, "Jenny's song" which also turns out to be the actual song of ice and fire. When people talk about him singing they speak of a sad song which makes people cry, he sings of tears, twilights and the death of kings. And there was said to be a sense of doom to Rhaegar. Would it be crazy if the ghost had told him everything that was to happen, the downfall of house Targaryen, that he would die and thousands with him, the long night would be coming and that in order to save the world he must fulfil the prophecy?
I've also wondered a lot about Darkstar, Doran Martell calls him the most dangerous man in Dorne. personally I believe Doran calls him dangerous due to his knowledge of a certain matter. Doran doesn't seem the type to perceive dangerous as something physical. I've read a theory about Darkstar potentially being a squire to one of the kingsguard at the Tower of joy and he witnessed what happened. Wouldn't that make him very dangerous to Doran and Dorne's ambitions, if R+L = J or A or D then it could change everything for Dorne depending on who you believe was born at the ToJ ( I know you guys believe it was Aegon). Sorry about the essay but I thought it would be good to get the thoughts of you guys as you look so deeply into things and It may triggers ideas for future videos which would be awesome !
George has said, so much happened at the tourney at Harrenhal that it would fill a whole other thickass book.
GIVE IT TO ME!!!! NOW!!!!
Love this series, gotta rewatch them atleast once a year
From the tvtropes article on "honor before reason":
Tywin Lannister is no better as he waged war because a son he didn't even like was abducted. Season four revealed that their gold mines had run dry so he couldn't even afford to go to war but he did anyway just so the family wouldn't look weak."
I don't know why the show decided to pretend the Lannisters were poor and their mines empty but they own the second largest port in westeros and their mines are still producing in the books
The Order of the Green Hand
To portray that Tywin is a whore for victory. He'll win at any cost and worry about paying it back later.
Another amazing video!!
Thank you sir
Can't wait for part 4!
Thanks Steve!
Maester Aemon might not have yet gone completely blind. So they could maybe have sent letters. Great Video. The seeds of the rebellion (both rebellions no all three) were really planted and pin pointed by you almost to the day as Arys and Tywin fell out. What i'd like to know but is not documented to my knowledge is how the Tywin and Varys dynamic really went down over the years.
I think he was completely blind, because he told Jon that when the news from the south came that his family was destroyed he was old and blind...it seems likely that Tywin wasn't fond of Varys because Pycelle hates him and Pycelle is practically an extension of Tywin
Yes Tywin was none to fond of Varys. Those two are at opposite ends of the chess board. Id like to know how they maneuvered against each other. We know what we have been told but there must be more we have not. Varys must of known of Twins plots against Arys. Superb series. I vote for Illyrio next.
you guys are on it!
you are on it Kinne
I do like the analysis so far, but I think that when you enter the Game of Thrones era of Tywin's life, Machiavelli would have disapproved of many of his actions, such as starting the war over Tyrion's abduction by Catelyn Stark.
But I await your analysis.
yea there is a lot that he was responsible for that got past us the first time through. i don't even know if we're capable of uncovering it all. haha, but yea next video we will finally delve into his actions in the books.
Skeptical Chris are you gonna be using show images? Because I love the illustrations from the books more though a Charles dance image is always welcome that guy just looks badass lol
big fan of the order love your videos I like that you keep them long because the content is so interesting keep it up big fan
Thank you so much!!
Super video again. Btw does somebody know the song in the beggining
Thank you...its not a famous song...its a song we bought the right to use
"He did what?" xd
hahaha i love that picture of him. I can see him saying that.
I always wondered why Tywin never remarried after Joanna's death. He needn't love another woman, but if he's conspiring to depose Aerys, marrying for alliance/securing more soldiers make sense. I remember reading something about him wanting to marry Lysa Arryn to secure a hold on the Knights of the Vale, but I half think that was rumor.
I think what you were thinking of was Jaime being betrothed to Lysa before he was made a KG...it wasn't even publicly announced but the arrangements were made
Ah. that makes sense. I remember jotting it down in my notes with a question mark because I wanted to come back to it, but I never did😂.
There's a theory that Tywin shot blanks and that all his kids, not just Tyrion, may in fact be Targaryen bastards.
Jarin Jove I've heard of it. However, I don't give it credence because Cersei and Jaime have Tywin's eyes. Green flecked with gold. They also have curly golden hair, not silver. Plus, if you look at how genes expressed themselves, whenever a Targaryen father has a child with a Non-Targaryen mother and her hair isn't brown, the Targaryen features express themselves every time. Just my opinion though.
I have heard that but can't understand the justification for it...why was he so happy when the twins were born if there was even a possibility they weren't his...he used one of his four lifetime smiles that day
I love your analysis, it's very well done :) Can you please please make a Tyrion Lannister video? It would be just awesome
About the Duskendale conspiracy. I see it having went down like the red wedding. Tywin didn't sanction it but he allowed it to happen an moved the king towards duskendale just like the second video says. I don't see tywin giving any "rewards" to duckendale for their behavior. I see it as a situation where something had to be done for the port of duskendale. An Tywins own tax plan made duskendale even less likely to thrive under the new tax code. Sad that all could have been avoided if the bold wasn't the most bad ass knight of all time. He was winning tourneys into his 6th decade of life? He's the greatest sword of the seven kingdoms. If he had a great sword like "lady forlorn" he would be widely considered the greatest of all time. Tywin on the other hand won wars an battles with quill an ink.
the Darklyns weren't going to commit suicide so Tywin could have revenge...Tywin would have needed to make them an offer they couldn't refuse to get someone to do something that stupid
I still think that, seeing the customs of houses Martell and Targaryen, Rheagar having a 2nd wife wouldn't be unheard of, but the rest of the Realm would shun at this action... not the betrothed houses, though
GRRM was quoted as saying that the Martells were not pleased by the treatment of Elia...give me a minute and I'll send you the quote
"the Dornishmen did not support him (Rhaegar) as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia"-GRRM
love this
great work!
thank you!
You're ignoring the fact that Rhaegar getting with Lyanna WASN'T AN INSULT to the Martells. Recall that Elia wasn't healthy enough to bear children for Rhaegar after Aegon was born (Elia's second child). Think back to the story of Queen Naerys, who begged Aegon IV (The Unworthy) to allow them to henceforth live as brother and sister, as their maester indicated that another pregnancy would kill Naerys, due to her frail and sick health. Aegon the Unworthy denied her request, and this further inflamed tensions between Aemon and Aegon IV, since Aemon wanted to protect his sister. Conversely, upon hearing that Elia was too sick to bear more children, Rhaegar decided that he would treat her right, and no longer expect her to fulfill the duties of wife, which would possibly kill her. This would NOT upset the Martells - in fact, the Martells would have been GLAD that Rhaegar decided to spare Elia instead of get her pregnant again, which would have risked her life. We're talking about medieval times here, where getting pregnant was sometimes a death sentence for women with various health problems.
it was an insult...even GRRM said so...he said the Martells were angry at Rhaegar's treatment of Elia...its one thing to have a paramour discretely on the side...what he did, with his wife sitting right there is entirely different
think about it...why wasn't Oberyn Martell leading the Dornish spears into battle at the Trident? if he didn't care one way or another he would have been there, like would be his duty to be...that's the equivalent of Ned deciding to stay home and sending the Northmen to war
It was an insult to make Lyanna queen of love and beauty at the tourney. However, it wasn't an insult to have a child with Lyanna. Rhaegar was a crazy mother fucker trying to fulfill prophecy, and he needed 3 children to make it happen. Fortunately, he wasn't crazy enough to try and kill Elia because of that prophecy, since that would have just been cruel.
You are arguing a moot point. "...the Dornishmen didn not support him (Rhaegar) as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger over his treatment of Elia"-GRRM look it up bitch
Lol calm down bitch, looking it up
This is probably my favorite
Stannis will get a series at some point...we need to finish up the projects we're already working on first though
If they went north how did they make it past the stark host that you mention were on its way to Riverrun. Not to mention Moat calin...
There is nothing that points towards that they would be hiding in Winterfell. It's a fun idea, but if that was the fact wouldn't GRRM have given more clues towards that?
did Mace hate the Martells because of the accidental crippling? I thought it was generally accepted that it was Mace's fault for allowing his son who wasn't ready to compete, to compete. didn't his son become good friends with Oberyn after the accident?
That would be so cool if Preston join your order
if he could prove himself to be as honorable and virtuous as he is skilled at arms, we'd be happy to have him
I think he could all he needs is an invitation
How would we extend him the invitation?
The Order of the Green Hand i leave that to you it's your order
Fair enough. We just find it unlikely that he would respond if we were to reach out and were hoping that you might have a suggestion or know what platform he answers people on
I've waited for you!
hope it was worth the wait
Another great episode!
Thank you
I don't think the Hightower have more men than Dorne and The north combined. Rob Stark had around 20,000 men and he didn't even wait for all the banners to be called, so I'd say the north has around 30,000 men. Dorne has around 20,000 men as per GRRM, the Hightowers only have around 10,000-150000 max
I think this video is kinda good!!! I see it seems like a recurring pattern :D.
Thanks ! :D
hell yea another classic homies but when you gonna do that video with The Don Tony Teflon
Could not Rhaegar have hoped the Starks would join them in opposing Aeries if Rhaegar took up with Lyanna? Especially if she pushed that idea--Lyanna had alwaays been an active girl while growing up and mis-liked the idea of marrying Robert.
Rhaegar wouldn't be the 1st man to do something 'asininely stupid' because he was being ruled by his mini-Rhaegar.
Moreover, Rhaegar could be thinking that, if the Dornish are not actively helping them, and they could replace them with both the Tyrells (who hate the Dornish as you say) and the Starks (who'd want to support Lyanna) they'd lose non-fighting allies and gain two very powerful allies.
As you say, Rhaegar greatly misjudged the Starks.
we also think it is interesting that Rhaegar "stole" her in true First Men fashion
what do you think about the trailer for the next season where cersei is dtanding on the neck and Jamie is by the fingers and the clues pointing in the show that bran is the night king.
So Tywin and Rhaegar work together and device 2 plots to dispose from Aerys. Tywin mentor Rhaegar and trust him but that at Battle of the trident he decide that Robert Baratheon, a man he didnt know, who have just 1 positive quality (good commander and great warrior), but better known for his drinking and whoring will be better king and husband for Cersei than Rhaegar, a man for whom Tywin was role model and mentor and Tywin know as child.
WE know that Rhaegar wanted reforms in the kingdom and he ask his father to ask Tywins help to crush the rebellion but i dont think that he and Tywin device this 2 plots and were working so close together. If they were so close Tywin would participate in battle of the Trydent at Rhaegars site. With Tywins man and military experience would have easily win the battle and after they crush the rebells they could remove Aerys. In Dance of Dragons Jon Konnigton state that Elia was very ill after Aegons burth and stayed in bed for 6 monts and that she was dying. Tywin definitely knew that from Picell who was chief physician to the royal family. Why Tywin will wait the outcome of the Battle at the Trident to make a move - if he and Rhaegar had such relationship as you sad. Woudnt be better for him to help Rhaegar win the battle and than to depose Aerys - Rhaegar would make Tywin hand, Rhaegar knew the man and his work, he woudnt have better chose for this post and after Elia death he would marry for Cersei. If he and Lyanna had a relationship in books as in GOT he still could have her as paramour. Tywin was practical man - he never ask Robert to stop cheating Cersei (as far as we know). Rhaegar didnt have single mistress before Lyanna, Robert already have 2 bastards - Gendry and Mia Stone and many mistresses.
If you were Tywin which man you will chose - Rhaegar or Robert. In this theory for Rhaegar and Tywin have too many "if".
Well Elia stayed in bed 6 months after Rhaenys's birth not Aegon's
And when she gave birth to Aegon she was close to death but she survived and couldn't bear anymore bcz if she did it would means her death
So she wasn't dying actually just having big problems with pregnacity
My favorite Retcon theory, like the Bourgies, is Tywin subconsciously KNEW of his Twins having incest but ignored it Openly, as it secretly cemented the pure Lannister dynasty blood on the throne as he was expecting to be the hand after Robert became king. He gave up his family's marrying into the Royal throne thru Rhaegar becoming king (&Aerys) had shunned Cersei (chose Elia & Lyanna) preventing a best combination of family blood Lannister & Targaryen for Tywin thus reneging on his partnered plotting with Rheagar.
So Tywin after learning of Rhaegar's loss slaughtered Rhaegars kids by Elia and if he'd know about Lyanna, Jon Snow too. He wasn't just doing it for Robert Baratheon, but was setting up the Lannister family to be next inline on the throne by marrying Cersei officially to Robert. So what if his grandkids were seen as Baratheons, they could be wed into Lannister cousins and entangle the throne with Lannister blood eventually getting a Lannister by name elevated to throne.
Jon Arryn getting the Hand's position thwarted that again, trusted Pycelle exposing Arryn to Tywin as learning of Cersei & Jaime, where Tywin would have left it alone ignored as the Hand. Little Finger's plots being unknown by all(but he might have seen the power play Tywin with his kids cuckolding in Kingslanding) but worked in Tywin's favor as Pycelle helped in the speedy death of poisoned Jon Arryn.
Lannister & Baratheon family blood mix was probably the least choice Tywin would want, learned of the disrespect whoring by King Robert and he was shunned as the Hand, - 'So Cuckold away fine, I don't know about it' by his children was fine with Tywin as he then expected once they became Kings he would regain his Royal powers as the Hand. That seemed Delicious Longterm Machevellian to me, accepting his twins incest for later family power gains by marrying Cersei to any king or prince. Tywin isn't a HOLY Seven man to be so abhorrent of Bro-Sis incest when the most powerful Targaryens did it and only generations of it produced Madness or still births. It would only taint his family if publicly known exposed.
Wasn't Jamie appointed to a king's guard at the Tourney at Harrenhal?
I think the timeline is a bit mixed up in the beginning of the video :)
he is sworn in at Harrenhal, but the King's intentions to have him named to the Kingsguard were revealed prior to Harrenhal.
Best videos on Yt
Thank you so much! That is a very big compliment. :D
Now it's confusing me again. There is Rhaegar's son from Elia named Aegon, and you claim the Aegon who is alive in ASOIAF is actually Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.
yes Aegon was the son of Elia and Rhaegar. We think he also had a son with Lyanna but clearly he wouldn't name him Aegon...We believe Young Griff, as he goes by in the books, is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and am not sure what his real name is, maybe Aemon or Jahaerys, so for simplicity sake we just say Aegon. The reason he also goes by Aegon is because the story that is told is that he is Elia's son and was saved during the sack of KL by Varys. We cite reasons why this seems unlikely to us in our R+L=Aegon playlist, video 2.
Yeah got it. Young Griff is 15 or 16(born in 284AC) as Tyrion says, and Aegon the son of Elia was born before him. Thanks mate.
What makes you think House Hightower could possibly field anywhere near a force the size of both what the North and Dorne could field? I estimate (and most other guesses have been in the same ballpark that) they might be able to field no more than 25,000 troops and probably closer to 15,000 which I'll admit is quite substantial but I have no reason to believe Dorne couldn't raise 30,000 troops if it needed to and GRRM has said their actual strength is similar to that of the North and Torrhen Stark raised an army of 30,000 before he knelt to Aegon the Conqueror (Robb's army was hastily assembled without time for troops to be gathered from the more remote parts of the North). For your statement to be accurate the Hightower army would need to number above 60,000 men and the only other to people in Westeros theoretically capable of fielding larger armies are Mace Tyrell (a and in this scenario significantly more than half his army would be those same Hightower troops) and the King (and that's only theoretical after all if the King goes to war its most likely going to be a civil war and a large percentage of his theoretical strength will be opposing him or staying home). If the Hightowers were that strong they would be the lords of the Reach and the Tyrells would be their vassals.
it is said that the Hightowers can field 3x as many men as any other Tyrell bannerman...Doran Martell tells everyone they can field 20,000 men but admits to Arianne that they'd be lucky to field half that, and the North can field 18,000 (if Robb's army is any indication...the Reach can field well over 100,000 as it is by far the most populous of the Kingdoms so it seems entirely reasonable that the Hightowers could raise 30,000+ based on the information given
Doran claims Dorne can field 50,000 and admits to Arianne that that is an inflated figure to make the conquest of Dorne seem more prestigious than it was but inflating the number can only go so far (after all this becomes a disinformation effort the Martell's try to maintain and must be kept within reason to be plausible). Robb's army was a hastily assembled force not the full strength of the North if it were how did the Sir Rodrick assemble a force to try and retake Winterfell or Stannis get 3,000 Mountain Clansmen?
Edit: Renly only had around 100,000 troops after assembling both the Reach and the Stormlander armies (80,000 at Bitterbridge, 10,000 at Highgarden and claimed he could bring 100,000 down on Stannis at Storm's End), I'd guess the Reach component of that army would number in the 70,000 range, maybe less. Other powerful Lords (who aren't Lords Paramount or King) usually only field armies in the range of several thousand e.g. House Bolton went back North with around 4,000 mostly Dreadfort men (and Roose made sure he minimised their losses), House Frey sent 4,000 men to war, the Lords Declarant (the 6 most powerful Vale lords) assembled 20,000 troops (probably less than their full potential strength but still only 3,000-3,500 each), House Reyne only mustered 2,000 troops to defend itself from Tywin, and House Darklyn and Mooten combined raised 3,000 men at the time of Aegon's Conquest and the Darlyn's were petty Kings in their own right at one stage. Three times the largest of these is still only 12,000 men and putting that way I'd revise down my own estimate of the Hightower's strength to under 20,000 (possibly substantially lower), which still puts them in a league of their own, but only somewhere above the other major houses in each kingdom and definitely below the Lords Paramount.
Maybe I am crazy, but a wedding between the children of two Lords, should've Aerys have been in attendance per protocol? Or was he too old by that time?
maybe if the King was willing to go...I'm sure they sent him an invitation...he was 46 or 47 when he died I believe