Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Why Catelyn Sucks | Part 5
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"not even having the decency to stay dead after the Red wedding"
that was savage burn hahahahaha
Couldn't help it Cassio! Thanks, look out for your comment at the end. :)
Hahahahaha I made it... thank you Order of the Green Hand
thank you for watching...we featured one of your comments at the end of the video
Mercedes Nuño Yup definitely stealing that one.
The Order of the Green Hand 24:02 hurrah
She only trusts Baelish a little but tells Ned to trust him, nice.
that is a great point! i didn't even notice that.
because she thinks he worships the ground she walks on. Not only that, but she thinks that she is entitled to that sort of treatment
Catelyn Tully is truly her father's daughter. Either that, or she was actually working for the Lannisters. Same result.
Imagine if Cat knew Jon's true parentage. She would would have spilled the beans faster than Sansa did in the show.
How exactly would that have helped her? They'd be declared traitors, ned would never have given Jon away, and it would have put her own children in danger, oh wait sorry I thought we were talking about a reasonable logical human being.
Sansa is truly Catelyn's daughter through and through. Arya appears to be more on the Stark end of the spectrum.
Always knew there was a reason I didn't like Sansa's character but this read of Catelyn helps me see the parallel.
you are a bigot at best
@@Unpackaged_Vinyl I can't believe people keep roasting 11-yo girl who had been given to a family of murderers by her own father and whose direwolf was killed by him, showing that she's on her own now.
@@pushista9322 True, her direwolf death was very symbolic indeed. I would say it was important for her to see actual reality especially after half of AGOT.
You have missed their conversation with Robb about legitimizing Jon and making his heir. That would worth another analysis. Catelyn would rather wanted to make a completely stranger from the Vale to Robb's heir as KitN, whose name even she did not know, than Jon, the white direwolf. She still hated Jon so much, after she lost almost every children of her, that she wanted him rather dead, than part (head) of the family. Maybe that is why Catelyn had to die for Jon becoming KitN.
I think, in their last conversation between Robb and Catelyn, Robb became truely a Stark and stood up against his mother's Tully-side, which rejected Jon. Even Greywind growled to Catelyn (mirroring Robb's feelings and thoughts), when Catelyn rejetcted Jon as a Stark, as Robb's heir. Greywind always knew, that Ghost is member of their pack...
The Stark words mean, what Ned told Arya in S1: prepared for Winter, the Starks have to hold together against their enemies, no matter, it is bastard or cousin or anything else - if he is a direwolf, another member of the pack.
And I agree, Catelyn was always a Tully, not a Stark. She never really understood the North, House Stark, Ned, or the bound inside the Stark family, no matter, what. She never really understood, what does it mean: Winter is coming...
As she never really understood the Old gods either. Probably she felt it right, that the Old gods hated her in the godswood, because of her broken vow to love Jon and being a true mother to him.
I wonder on the bound between the members of the Stark family. I've heard, that the Stark, who made the sleepy lord commander of the Nightswatch bury his brother's body (I forgot his name), raised his brother's little son, governed the North in his name until his nephew, the true heir, got the age, and then stepped aside and let his nephew, the right heir to rule on... Although almost everybody else would have taken over the power for himself in his place. But he was a Stark.
I think, it was never such thing during the 8000 year old history of the Starks, when the Starks have fought against each other, or a younger brother/bastard wanted to rebel/usurp the rights of the rightful heir. It could be connected to the Stark magic, settled into the crypts, or the Old gods made sort of that.
So I think, Catelyn really worried about nothing...
But I could be wrong. Jon has definately ambitions to rule Winterfell, but he is surpressing it, because he knows, he is a bastard. I wonder, how he will act after his resurrection in the books about ruling Winterfell. Spending his death time in Ghost, he will become more feral, more like a true direwolf. Maybe after his resurrection he definately will want to get and rule Winterfell. Good question if Catelyn will be right in the end, and Jon will want it even before Sansa-Arya-Bran (Arya and Bran won't want to rule, I think and Sansa is just not fit to rule, the idea her ruling is pathetic) or Jon will still surpress the desire to rule the North inside him and let it to Sansa... well, at least, until Robb's will declare him the rightful heir/or being proclaimed KitN.
I love this series of videos, but I don't see that Cat's obsessive fear for and/or hatred of Jon means she thinks he's the "true" heir of Winterfell. I think we can see something more fundamental to her charcater (and that could clearly be added to the list of reasons she sucks). Namely, she really has no understanding of the family she married into. Even worse, she doesn't seem to care enough to fix that problem.
For the sake of argument, let's accept that Cat believes that Jon is a bastard. For all she knows, he could be an ordinary bastard, or if Ashara were his mother, a great bastard (who tend to be better thought of, and have better prospects). Either way, Jon is a bastard, and as such does not stand to inherit his father's Lordship. Sure, if all of the legitimate Starks died, it's certainly not unthinkable that the Northern Lords would use Jon to preserve House Stark. At that time, however, there were 3 trueborn brothers and 2 trueborn sisters in line to inherit before that would even be a consideration.
But, what does Catelyn keep thinking about? Jon looks more like Ned than her own sons, and Ned clearly loves him the same way he loves the children that she gave him. Because Ned loves Jon so much, Jon is always around as Cat sees it. Bastard or no, that reinforces the idea of Jon as Ned's son in the eyes of everyone around, including the Northern Lords. Apparently this laid the groundwork for Cat's fears, but the clincher was easy to see: with the exception of her daughter Arya, Jon was the only one of Ned's children that truly looked like him. Robb, Bran, Rickon, and Sansa all looked much more like Tully's than Starks. Jon was different. Jon reminded everyone of a younger Ned Stark, even Ned. The only real difference is that Cat remembered thinking that Ned looked more plain (screw you Cat, Ned's awesome), and Ygritte thinks of Jon as having a pretty face.
So, on one hand you have a bastard who is fully embraced by his father, and whose appearance screams Stark (Ned Stark particularly) to any Northerner who sees him. On the other, you have the children to whom Cat gave birth. With the exception of her younger daughter, all of them look more like the Tullys, a Southern house. It probably doesn't help in Cat's mind that it is exceedingly rare for Starks to marry non-Northerners. Maybe Cat thought it would make it easier for Northern Lords to turn their backs on her children. So, from this perspective, it's SOMEWHAT understandable that she'd see Jon as a threat. The problem is, this perspective reveals just how little she understands the family she married into or the people that family rules. In the South, such things might lead to serious problems. Not so in the North. A quick look at the history of House Stark would have shown this. Whether you're talking about the bastard brother of "The King Who Knelt", or the She-Wolves, or any of the other Starks handed the opportunity to screw over family members and claim power for themselves; the results are the same. When faced with the same (or very similar) conditions that led to civil war and unrest in the South and/or in the Targaryen dynasty, the Starks have always responded by remaining loyal to each other and working together to protect their House and their people. That's one of the things that Northerners (both high and low born) love about the Starks. They protect the North from outside threats, keep the peace internally by enforcing Justice, and they don't tear apart their own kingdom with petty power struggles.
If Cat had done the slightest bit of homework about the realm she was now Lady of, or the family she was now matriarch of, she'd have known Jon was no threat to her children. If anything, the history of House Stark would predict he'd be a valuable ally. If Cat hadn't interfered, Jon could have been Robb's right hand man. Who knows, maybe he could have cleaned up some of the messes Cat caused. Unfortunately, Cat never bothered. She viewed everything through the lens of the Southern Lady that she was. The reason Cat sucks so much is that as an adult, she was the embodiment of everything we didn't like about Sansa when she was younger. At least with Sansa it was forgivable because of her age, and because even then we could see hints of Ned's influence as well. Ultimately, the difference between Cat and Sansa is that Sansa suffered and grew as a person, while Cat's inability to do so caused so many (including herself) to suffer.
"If Cat hadn't interfered, Jon could have been Robb's right hand man. "
If he hadn't joined the Nightwatch I'd bet he'd have been one of Robb's Kingsguard. Even if he didn't he'd be right there by his side.
That is one of the best comments I have ever seen! Yes she is an absolute idiot and a southerner. She never learned about her new people she even raised her daughter to be a southern lady. Look at what Sansa does in the first book. She turns on her family for power and prestige. What a Southerner would do.
And what does Jon do at the Wall when he hears his father has been executed and Robb is at war? He prepares to ride south risk his own life to stand at his BROTHER'S side. This is with Cat's vile treatment of Jon, Jon would have been a fantastic battle commander and ally for Robb, or someone to protect the North, because Robb only has Bran. A crippled 8 year old as defender of the North.... Ya that's a good idea. And What does Cat do when she hears that Robb is going to legitimize Jon and name him as his heir?! She flips that fuck out about it because it's Jon. She even thought of giving Winterfell to another family instead of giving it to a son of Eddard Stark.
Crazyscotsman not only that thanks to all the glorified stories Catelyn told Sansa Sansa looked down on the North the place she has spent her entire life in meanwhile most Starks dread the idea of leaving the North I mean, Ned almost cried at the thought of leaving Winterfell.
You nailed it. I have tried to attribute Cat's deep character flaws to her temperament, but I can't help but compare her to my grandmother, who had the same personality type as Cat and was born into a family with similar status, and see how very different the two were. There is something fundamentally wrong with Cat's moral character and awareness of the culture she married into.
stanklepoot I completely and utterly agree. Catelyn Tully had no clue or want to know the man and the people he ruled. She is terrible.
Catelyn Tully, the lannisters most valuable player!
RIGHT?!?!?!
"the lannisters were born with pride but the tullys were born with more sence" catelyn tully.. lol reeeaaally?! she was the pushing force in causing the civil war, and single handedly ruined any chances her bastard son had of winning or even living for that matter..in asoiaf with out catelyn tully, all the starks would be alive..
poor ned..he should never have left star fall.. ashara would never have done him so dirty..
r/iamverysmart
C-MONSTER linking subreddits outside of Reddit? You disgust me
he deserves it for choosing her instead of Ashara if that theory is true@@eastcoastlifestyle1735
I believe Catelyn's nature can be found in her name. She is often referred to as Cat. Now, I have two cats and all they do is sleep, rest, eat and groom themselves. Except at night, when they sneak around and hunt for prey from the shadows. And when the prey expects it the least, the Cat strikes. This may be why G.R.R. Martin chose to call her Cat(elyn).
Well, at least cats are cute and won't make stupid decisions that will lead to war.
Also, her nick name of Cat would make her the early on foil for Cersei who sees herself as a lioness a species of big cat.
@@slipstreamxr3763 Hahaha a Cat married into a family of wolves.
There was a great quote in Harry Potter series: "“If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”
This helped me a recognise Cat's entity right in the beginning when I saw how she treated Jon.
Yo, who said that in Harry Potter?
@@friendlyneighborhoodspider7145 Sirius Black
Let's also not forget that if Brienne hadn't been so determined to carry out her mission, Jaime would have been recaptured within a day. No-one could have imagined Brienne would be capable of sinking a warship and nearly drowning the entire crew with nothing but some quick thinking and brute strength. So Catelyn's 'plan' to exchange Jaime for Sansa was GOD AWFUL on every single level.
Its honestly amazing Brienne had any respect for her at all, let alone endless amounts of loyalty.
Brienne had very scant acknowledgement in her life. Aside from her father. (maybe the best father that could be for a girl like her in those times. really, cant imagine one better for those conditions)
Making her needing to latch on anyone that acknowledges her existance, even a tiny bit. no matter she is obviously only a tool for them. Even being seen as a tool is a sort of acknowledgement.
So, cathelyn didnt "earn" anything. More like found.... Because Brienne was offering her loyalty with open hands to anyone that wanted a grab. That see her.
I mean, is renly the proper person to gain the loyalty of the sole heir of an albeit small but nontheless a landed lordship, who can fight and do battle too, so is fully functional as an heir? But doesnt have spares after her? So must either live and get married for the passing of the title, or die and give way to distant cousins or vassals(?) of her father, for the good of her people.
What she should have done was what what the mormont matriarch did obtaining her heirs. But its not north...... So not an option.
My guess is, her dying was seen as the better option. So her father send her to renly. As he didnt have much army to spare too. And her dying by suicide is a stain, (so is killing her in the eyes of lordship hopefuls), prone to being used as a tool for infighting purposses; so her dying "honorably" if she cant get a good lord material (politically) to marry was her only way of service and a corner of existance in the eyes of populace(and her too it seems, her being suicidal in her hardheadedness). No matter how short.
Sadly she reminds me of some real life women... I think that's GRRM's success--suckiness is an art or at least a trade. Why someone sucks is not a simple issue of good or evil, hero or villain. She's not a typical villain and her moral failings are all carefully hidden under a rhetoric of love for family/justice. But underneath she's driven solely by a very specific desire for matriarchal power, which is delusional due to her narcissistic view of her own grandeur and failure to understand the basics of people.
Catelyn is alot different in show for such minor details. She urges Ned not to go, regrets her treatment of Jon Snow, and gets to king's landing after Ned on horse. More loving naive mother, less of sneaky selfish mother.
the show seems to have gone out of there way to make her the strong female lead instead of staying true to her character from the books
Reality In Fantasy the show was trying to turn a stone-hearted bitch into a slightly more compassionate figure
And yet, she’s still a narcissistic, hysterical, mean-spirited, stupid, treasonous stinky fish.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand It's no coincidence that the only adult female pov we get for the first three books is someone who can be so easily compared and contrasted with the female antagonist in the form of Cersei Lannister. And George loves making things a lot less black and White than a lot of fantasy stories.
This is why I love seeing Ned/Cersei in ASOIAF fanfiction because the character of the female Stark really wouldn't be all that different if it was Cersei sent up North or Catelyn, they'd still make a lot of the same decisions, they'd still hate the bastard, they'd still want to go back to either their family down south or King's Landing and southron politics, they'd still create a Sansa who's fed an idealised image of the south, they'd still make a bunch of rash decisions while thinking they're smarter than everyone else and they'd still reject northern ways and refuse to understand the north and it's people at all.
And yet so many people hate Cersei while failing to realise that she's more sympathetic than Catelyn and it's only protagonist centred morality that makes people prefer the latter.
The actress that plays her makes me hate Catelyn even more.
"She is every bit as good a wife and mother as I ever was."
-Joan Crawford
hahahahahahahahahhahah
I've always seen Catelyn as a version of what Sansa could have been if her fairytale and feudal notions hadn't been questioned, challenged, and ultimately shattered so brutally at a young age.
Yes, you could argue that the murder of Brandon Stark was HER introduction into the lesson that life wasn't a song, but even in that tragedy, the next move wasn't divergent of what was expected: Catelyn was married off to Ned as befitted custom when the original groom is killed. The side her family was on ended up being on the winning side, so she never had to experience the perspective and hardship of being directly at her enemies mercy, like Sansa did. She was safe in her home turf during the fighting. As a result, she remained relatively sheltered and unenlightened when it came to knowing how to properly read people, (a trait she unfortunately passed down to Sansa to an even higher degree). the isolation of the north only compounded this. Despite her years as an adult, the trusting, naive nature of a child is still very much alive in her. I mean, for Christ's sake, she didn't even piece together the cause of the riff between her sister and her father until he was on his deathbed. She actually thought that little fingers feelings were pure.
Sansa, on the other hand, spent her formative years being a political hostage and was regularly abused by her prince in shining armor, suffering a sort of bizarro version of her dreamed fairy tale: The good queen is actually a conniving, lecherous murderer, her prince, a petulant sociopath, and the knights she adored are dishonorable.
To me, Catelyn shows the reader what Sansa could have been like as an adult if she hadn't experienced so much hardship. Catelyn's mistakes and failures are the product of her upbringing and lack of exposure to the world outside of the winning, elitist nobles. She never had to learn how to navigate in a den full of lions. ;). Thankfully though, it seems that Sansa won't be following in her footsteps. Her experiences in kings landing have forced her to grow and adapt in ways that Catelyn never got to. In the end, she will be what her mother couldn't: a master player at the game of thrones.
Yeah you missed a bit. The "trial" Tyrion had was completely illegal. Neither of the batshit sisters had any right to try Tyrion. Catelyn has no right to try anyone since she's not in charge anywhere, she just sleeps with someone who does. Lyssa has no jurisdiction at all, nothing that Tyrion is accused of happened in The Vale. It would be like the Attorney General of New York arresting you for crimes in West Virginia and having you tried in a New York State Court.
So suppose that they had got a "conviction", presumably through beating Tyrion down until even execution seems better ("Sky Cells always break them"). What would be the result? Well nobody not personally loyal to the batshit sisters (love that name) would think it was anything but murder. Tywin Lannister would then make it his personal mission to have both of them killed. His preference would be execution after a trial, but knife in the night will do in a pinch. And most of Westeros would say "fair enough". Meanwhile he would demonstrate to the Vale, the North and everyone else who needs an object lesson why you don't murder Lannisters, you know like he did anyway. Note that this is the best case scenario. This is what Catelyn WANTS to happen. It's actually worse than what did happen because everyone knows she's crazy.
Well actually Lysa has that power, since she also charged him with the murder of Jon Arryn, the Lord of the Eyrie
@@Kai555100 That murder took place in King's Landing. Robert Baratheon has jurisdiction there, not her. The evidence that Tyrion had anything to do with his death, even if it wasn't natural is zero. Even she claimed that it was the Queen, not Tyrion that did it.
When you suck so much you get a 5 part series.
+Hailey Hart so true hailey!
lol hahaa
Hailey Hart facts! 😂😭😂😭💯💯
You know it's bad when you have more vids than Joff or Ramsay
And they still missed at least one reason why she sucks. I don't blame them for this, sometimes the stupid/crazy just overwhelms someone and you can't keep track of it.
I think that the reason she is seen as likeable is that she fits a cherished norm of a mother who is emotional and impulsive about protection of her children. Martin skewers this by showing where it leads. Interestingly, other protective mothers are also shown negatively (does Martin have Mommy issues?). Cercei protects her children, but is seen negatively because she's calculating. Lysa protects Sweet Robin, but is just plain batshit. Daenarys is interesting, in that she's more metaphorically a mother... of dragons, of freed slaves. But she leaves a trail of destruction, and is planning more, some of the worst destruction Westeros has seen for centuries. A series on why Dani sucks would be great, as she's even more terrible than Cat.
If Catelyn gets a part 6, she'll be the official legendary sucker of all time
her actions could be worthy of a part 6 depending on her role in TWOW
I will wait on baited breath for THAT video...and my savage sense of humor will be ready.
LF thought she was.
What does "LF" Stand for?
Littlefinger aka Lord Petyr Balesh.
sansa was a young child raised her entire life by fairytales told by a lunatic. she could not know any better. unlike catelyn.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that.
Old Nan might be crazy, but she's told Bran some startlingly accurate stories about the Long Night, and Other things, that were just thought to be fables. But yeah, sansa being a teenager going to Kings Landing, which Ned knows as a "pit of vipers," and her having no working knowledge of the difference between fantasy and reality was a huge oversight from both of her parents.
Adam Schmitt everything you said here is absolutely correct, but I'm pretty sure the lunatic in question is Cat, not Old Nan.
Ned may have wanted his children to stay children (something I understand, but not smart if you're in his position), but Cat seemed to have taken up Rickard Stark's "Southern Ambitions" for at least some of her children (look how well that ended a *second* time?), and seeing how little Cat knew about how court really works beyond the pleasantries and physical expectations of women, can we really be shocked that Sansa (the only one who fully listened to Cat) was clueless af?
@@elektraeriseros Considering how little Ned interacted with the South after the rebellion I'd imagine that he would be focused on internal marriages and with it the Stark children would have probably coped fairly well with the possible exception of Sansa who was more heavily influenced by her Septa and Catelyn. I think his only mistake there was in terms of not arranging their betrothals sooner but that's probably influenced by what betrothals seem to have cost the Starks of his generation.
I think the Littlefinger knows the secret language she shared with her sister. There is no way in hell he wouldn't have either figured it out or pumped Lysa for access to it.
Ramsey suddenly doesnt seem that bad...
+Frederick the Great hahaha
At least we simply *knew* that Ramsey was an animal.
Nah Ramsey was a sadist,at least Catelyn meant well.
@@MaZiya___ / at least Ramsey was competent, getting thousands killed due to stupidity and hubris is kind of worse than meaning to do that.
Also remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Catelyn's Death is the sole reason why I believe The Red Wedding was justified!
**Catelyn returns as Lady Stoneheart**
Dammit Walder, Dammit Tywin you had one job!
she didn't even have the decency to stay dead
Refuse to even consider bringing Ned back.
Brings Ned's decayed useless bitch wife back at the expense of his own life.
@@papaofthejohns5882 well, I doubt that it's possible to ressurect a person whose head was separated even with the power of Lord of Light.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Right. Joffrey Baratheon, at least, had that much decency.
As a TV show viewer this series made it click why she went on to Robb's wife about how everything was her fault for not loving Jon Snow, at first I thought "that seems uncharacteristically superstitious out of the blue" but now I see that she meant it literally....she played her game to get him gone and destroyed practically the whole seven kingdoms over hating a motherless child...mind....blown! Thanks for this.
It's funny. For years a friend of mine and I have been arguing about whether Catelyn was someone that needed to be pitied or hated. After watching the first "Catelyn Sucks" video three months ago, I called him and profusely apologized and linked your videos. Thanks for opening my eyes and setting me straight.
the woman is a nightmare
Having read the books and your summary, I think Cat is parallel to who Cersei is in the Lannisters, they’re both spoiled high born ladies who thought they were better at the game than experienced soldiers. They claimed their goals were to protect their family but their self-righteousness and stupidity led towards the downfall of this very goal.
Everytime I heard "Self Appointed War Advisor" my stomach started hurting from laughing too much. I love this woman so much. Hopefully she continues to play the Game of Thrones in TWOW.
Catelyn = Logic
it's the same as Ramsay = Kind
agreed
More like Ramsay=Merciful
I'm rereading A Clash of Kings for the second time. This time through I'm noticing how Catelyn likes Ned alot better after he's dead.
right?!?!?! she's like tony soprano's mom...hated his father when he was alive, then after he was dead all of a sudden he's a saint
+The Order of the Green Hand also she was much more fond of him now that "his loves and secrets all died with him" victory is hers!
"Not even having the decency to stay dead after the Red Wedding." This was the beautifully sarcastic comment that gave me no choice but to subscribe to this channel. (My abs are sore from laughing too hard.)
+Gielea hahahahaa thank you! We def roasted her in this one bad.
It was well deserved. You put together a damn good argument. I'll even admit I kinda liked her and felt bad for her until I saw these videos. In fact, I will be going back and rereading the books and watching the series now. Thanks!
I believe Catelyn is as crazy as her sister... just expressed a little differently. No one will change my mind~
she just covers it better
Covert narcissist
can someone in this fandom PLEASE write a fanfic where Catelyn dies but first tells rob the 5 things Ned wanted him to do!?
hahahaha...that would have been a very different story...especially if she walked right past Tyrion and told Robb, then had a heart attack or something
Thank you for the enlightenment! I started out as a casual watcher of the TV-show and never really thought that much about Catelyn. She was Neds annoying wife who made bad decisions out of grief or stupidity. Your videos opened up another world to these characters. You made the Game of Thrones universe comprehensible to us who haven't read the books. It's like experiencing the show all over again! Now I clearly see why Catelyn sucks!
PS. The videos on Tywin are amazing!
Thank you so much...we really appreciate that...it is nice to hear that show watchers can enjoy our videos too and not just diehard book fans
I want to know where the members of House Tully were during the Tourney of Harrenhal. Considering they are the Lords of the Riverlands and this massive event is taking place in their lands, that they liege lords of House Whent, and that Minisa Whent was Hoster Tully's wife and gave him his heir, I find it odd that there is no mention of anyone from House Tully attending.
CAT: " does Varys knows about....the secret romance we totally have; btw lysa killed her husband- with the shit im pulling it wont be long till im a widow too."
*Tee Hee*
This is my 3rd viewing and still enjoyable. A thought: sansa could have had some value if Rob offered her hand to one of his northern lords to secure loyalty. How Catelyn convinced him to trade the entire line of succession to walder Frey will never make sense.
exactly. !
I bet she knew about Ashara and orchestrated Jon Arryncs death (Who also knew) with Lysa.
She aim was to get rid of Jon Snow, get Ned as hand and have her daughters marry into Lannisters.
A win win for all involved.
I like the way you're thinking, we think it was something along these lines. she's really sketchy
Omar Hanbali That would be a very cunning move.
The question is,was she smart enough to think it up on her own.
Or Peter 'whispered' the idea in her head to manipulate her for his own gains.
+Sergio Milho
Petyr without a doubt, he's the only one who could'ave arranged it.
@Sergio Milho Peter putting into her head the seed of her plots and motive for getting rid of Jon might also explain why so many of her other little burst of crazy seem less like "a plot" and more "sheer dumb luck that she didn't get herself killed right along with everyone else".
For all we know perhaps she was littlefinger's pawn since the start
We can never know what that letter she burnt read
Maybe Aegon should have made the Blackwoods the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. Bloodraven's blood mix with Stark blood would have made some stellar lords. Plus Catelyn wouldn't have been married to the Starks.
Thank you so much for this series! Catelyn is so much like Cersei -- destroying her family for her own ideals whilst justifying it as being a "good protective mother" that it drove me nuts people held her up as a strong feminist ideal...honestly...I think George does more to debunk the bogus "strong female" feminist ideal than actually supporting the true feminist ideal...
I think he writes realistic characters....there are very few characters that are well suited to "playing the game," and very few of them are women because in the world they live in, the women are not taught to play the game...so when they try to play the game with the boys who are trained to play the game, they fail, the same way I would fail to fight one of the men like a knight, because I have no idea what I'm doing...if you are not trained to do something where there are lives at stake, you shouldn't play...i don't know if that is anti-feminist or not...it just seems completely logical...the QOT is the only woman we know for sure can play the game with the boys...I suspect there will be a few more by the time it is all said and done
She killed the Tripod and Brienne ? I think I hate her more than Jeffrey and Ramsay now
FINALLLLLLLLLLLLLLY..... FINALLLLLLLLLY THE ORDER OF THE GREENHAND HAS COME BACK, TO YOU-TUBE!!
haha yay! we're not going anywhere...enjoy :)
If a channel responds to all my ramblings, a channel will be here all night. A channel is most gracious.
You were an instant favorite from your very first comment
I never realized, she is the Jar Jar Binks of the GOT.
She didn't see her family leave Winterfell? Not even to sneer at Jon Snow leaving her life? Not even to tell Ned,"Don't bring back another baby!" ?
She sucks!
Thanks for putting this video series, together.
hahaha...thank you for watching
Is it me or is there a parallel between Catelyn and Cersei?
They both have distance their husbands from their first born sons. The more they try to manipulate events in favor of their children ends up doing more harm than good. They are directly or indirectly responsible for their husband's death and the death of the heir apparent. They both reek unchained havoc on the public Stoneheart killing people randomly and Cersei blew up the Sept. Both insanely jealous of their husbands previous loves. They were both ruled by their fathers and entered into politcally arranged marriages. We know that Cersei had a secret lover Jaimie I'm willing to bet that Catelyn also had a secret lover. If I were to bet I would say that the only child that is not Ned's is Sansa since she is the only one who hadn't developed her warging abilities (excused by losing Lady very early). I think we will find out that Catelyn has been in constant contact with LF since she arrived with Rob at Winterfell and saw John already there. This unfounded fear of usurption was planted by LF which allowed him to manipulated Cate. LF has been manipulating the sister for years and he ends up having a child by each and arranging their deaths.
+D D definitely ! We allude to some of the parallels in the Ned's bastards video
Okay calling it.
Following the Catelyn and Cersei parallels it is easy to deduct what is missing from each of their story lines if you know what has happened in the others story.
* If Cersei slept with her brother then so did Catelyn (LF who was considered a brother).
* If Cersei had a child by her brother who she wanted to take the throne then so did Catelyn Joffrey and Sansa.
"She reminds me of the mother, not the father, Lord Petyr Baelish said quietly"
Sansa can't warg not because Lady died too early but because she is not a Stark she is a Baelish. Sansa is Little Finger's daughter which is why he has always taken so much interest in her (like with Robin - notice the bird motiff) and why Catelyn was willing to follow his instuctions just like Lysa, they both thought the were acting in the best interest of their children with LF. LF plotted in KL to arrange a wedding between Cersei's bastard and his bastard. In the show Sansa is called Little Bird and always plastered with bird motifs on her clothes and jewlery.
However the real proof has been in plain view since the introduction of LF, his changed "family" sigil - Mockingjay -- Some types of mockingbirds are known to lay "alien eggs", or eggs that are laid in another bird's nest. Similar to the cowbird, the mockingbirds' offspring will force the other nest inhabitants from the nest, taking all the food from the parents and forcing the foster-parents to rear and fledge them.
LF laid his eggs in these weak Tully women nests, thereby controlling the north with Winterfell and the Vale. This is why the Starks were really targetted not because of the Lanisters or Baratheons, it was because LF was clearing the nest for his daughter to take the throne.
We know he made Lysa kill her husband, who knows if she also got rid of Arynn's children like Cersei aborted many of Robert's children.
Here's how I think LF got rid of all the Starks except Sansa (like he got rid of all the Arynn's except his son Robin)
* LF directed Catelyn's stupidity that lead to Ned, Rob (Rob's wife and child) and her own death.
* LF sent the assasin to complete Cersei and Jaimie's incomplete murder of Bran (He thrives in chaos).
* LF perched Sansa with the Bolton's to hold on to Winterfell (A Stark must always be in Winterfell).
* LF found Rickon and had him handed over to his certain death with the Boltons.
* LF overlooked Bran and Arya because he assumed they were already dead.
* LF at first didn't see Jon as a problem since he was universally labeled a bastard and was sent away to the Wall.
So what will be LF's down fall-- his children. Sansa is NOT a Tully she is a Baelish who cut her teeth not at Riverrun but in Kingslanding. Sansa will beat her father at his own game.
The rich irony is that Jon Arryn and Ned Stark died investgating the "alien eggs" in Robert's nest but neither had seen that LF had laid his eggs in their own nest in the Vale and Winterfell..
Maggie the Frogs predictions could also be applied in parallel to Catelyn.
1. Cersei's/Catelyn's queenship
--- "Will I marry the Prince, no the King."
Because of direct interference of the Mad King both women married "Kings" instead of "Princes"
* Cersei's betrothal to the Prince didn't happen but in the end she married the King (Robert)
* Catelyn was suppose to marry the Prince of the North (but he and his father were killed by the Mad King) but ended up marrying the "King" of the North
2. Cersei's/Catelyn's children
--- A younger, more beautiful queen will be Cersei's/Catelyn's undoing.
* LF clears the Stark nest for the beautiful Sansa who was set to become Queen of the Iron Throne
* Still not sure who the young queen that will be Cersei's undoing either Dany or Sansa
--- Cersei/Catelyn will outlast her children and die by the hands of "the valonqar".
* all of Catelyn's bastard children with her husband Ned are dead or presumed dead when Catelyn dies. Catelyn had been told that Bran and Rickon were burned alive, no one knew where Arya was and was presumed dead and Rob was killed infront of her. So she thought she had "outlived" all her bastard (illegitimate) children with Ned (Because Ned was already wed). Robb, Arya, Bran and Rickon. Catelyn knew Sansa was still alive hence her trading Jaime for her... but she is not Ned's child.
* all of Cersei's bastard children with her husband Robert are dead. Because they were the offspring of her brother (Joffrey, Marcella and Tommen)
However, Cersei and Catelyn did have children who will outlive them Cersei's first child with Robert (Gendry) and Catelyn's child with LF (Sansa). LF finger prints are all over this, most likely he helped Cersei and Jaime hide Gendry. Also, LF knows Jon's really heritage that he is really Ned's legitimate first born son, which is why he is ginning up Sansa's animosity towards his bastardness... when it is really Sansa who is the bastard.
Another parallel not regarding Maggie the Frog:
* Catelyn was raised from the dead by magic
* Cersei could be raised from the dead by ...
About Tyrion: option D: Just not interested in opholding a bargain
true
I think he might, if only to set a precedent of honouring prison exchange agreements. Plus by this time he might be thinking that he might be safer in the Stark camp and therefore keeping them sweet would be smart.
Of course he never expected someone would be stupid enough to just send Jaime without prearrangement or adequate escort.
@@newperve True, and, in any case, Tyrion has a sense of honour. But we know that because we're in a position to judge him. The Starks are not. From their point of view, trusting a Lannister is completely insane.
@@ajvanmarle She went from irrationally suspecting him to irrationally trusting him for no reason.
The truth is Catelyn and Ned started the world war and for some reason we followed and cheered for the "protagonists" when they were the biggest idiots in this world. - At least that's how HBO wanted the viewers to see the show through. The eyes' of the Starks.
- Littlefinger kills John Aryn, Robert is still king (no war)
- Cersei kills Robert, Joffrey becomes king (no war)
- Jaime pushes Bran out of a window/Littlefinger tries to finish him off (no war)
These events by itself did not shake the realm into world war
- It was Ned 's stupidity with Robert's bastards that set everything in motion, where everyone with a castle in Westeros then claimed their right to the iron throne
- and It was Catelyn's stupidity with kidnapping Tyrion (a member of the King's royal family) that guaranteed war
Let's not forget how absolutely naive and stupid Ned was about Dany. "she's just a little girl". Yeah, how did that turnout Ned. Robert and his advisors that wanted them finished off, were absolutely right about what she was likely try to do. And once again, Ned was incredibly wrong and stupid. Likeable man who deserved to get his head chopped off
I never liked Cat, she always frustrated me. I never realised she was this bad though…
if you isolate her actions and look at them in a sequence, its almost maddening that she can be as bad as she is at seemingly everything
that was a great end to a great series!!!! when you summed up what happened to her kids after she played the game of thrones says it all. that was really well done. i notice in Ned's confession before he is beheadedihe says" I am Eddard Stark Lord of Winterfell and Hand of the King,and i have come to you to confess my treason in the sight of gods and men" and then he proceeds(for the sake of his children) to speak the only lie he ever speaks in the books.then he proclaims Joffrey as the true king to the High Septon, Baelor and the Seven. no old gods no weirwood in sight. shows you what he thinks about the things he does in the sight of gods and men.
that is interesting...I never noticed that
Family, Duty, Honor. Ned stark knew this without it being house words The Tullys (like the fish they are)seem to forget this and have to keep reminding themselves. well Brynden doesnt but he is the Blackfish of the family
forgive me if I've said this to you before, but I think that the order the Tully's words are in are significant...Family (her children's inheritance) first, Honor (doesn't care what she has to do to secure it) last
i think your right she puts honor last and she put Tully honor before Stark honor.when shes begging for Robbs life at the red wedding she says.."on my honor as a Tully........on my honor as a Stark...." the blackfish doesnt seem to put family first he seems to hold Honor and duty pretty high. i think is similar to what Jamie says about all the vows..."no matter what you do your forsaking one vow or the other" maybe thats why they put them in that order maybe it should be Tully, Duty, Honor. i like that theres a few house words that we dont know yet. would love to know the words of house Baelish. really looking forward to the next littlefinger episode.i left a comment(well maybe a couple) on the first part. The snow castle scene with Sansa. there is so much in that scene(to me anyway)it was a few days after i commented about the mockingbird sigil so you might not have seen it but id love to know what you think.
scottie, It's not here. I'm reading all your comments on most recent green hand. Am I in the wrong spot? I'm not a facebook or twitter person. just youtube and westeros, and Qora.
Love these videos but I'd argue Walder owed allegiance to the Crown too. He didn't want any part in the rebellion but he sent his Soldiers, Knights, and guarded Robbs escape route and all he asked for was a marriage those are pretty reasonable terms.
At that point the crown wasn’t really involved. The Lannisters were pillaging the riverlands and the Tullys called upon him
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand ya that is a good point there.
I've gotta agree with this, you can't exactly use the "I'm your liege lord so you must obey me" rule when you youself are currently fighting a war against your own liege lord.
I will miss this series, it was the best outlet for all my catelyn frustrations
+Agni Basnet "Old stories are like old friends. You have to visit them from time to time."-GRRM
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I listen to this entire series from time to time. I have a little crush on Ned and can't help but feel he deserved a much better wife.
It's 4/20 if only she smoked some Weirwood Weed this all could have been avoided.
its too bad that guy in the glass gardens doesn't grow weed to spike her tea with every morning
I bet Weirwood Weed would be some next level shit.
You'd be seeing snarks, grumpkins and white walkers!!
Mick Dundee I hit the weirwood daily, good stuff but I gotta get over to Asshai & see what that Ghost Grass is all about :D
Yeah I don't think she needs to be _more_ paranoid.
"Didn't have the decency to stay dead after the Red Wedding" Lmao! Loved that part. Thanks for the shout out at the end btw :-)
no problem...we tried to make sure we used comments from some of our favorite and most loyal fans
+Kay Lew that comment is one of the most liked comments that was ever posted on one of our videos!!
I never liked catelyn from the start of the books, but you have opened my eyes to how sneaky she was, and after watching all your videos it seems to me the whole war started because of her actions. Her and Little Finger of course. People might say a war was coming any way because Jon Arryn found out Cersei's children were not Roberts, but it seems to me Little Finger and Catelyn orchestrated the whole thing, from Jon Arryns murder and everything after. Little Finger just used lysa to do the killing, but he and Catelyn were in on it the whole time. Maybe she and Little Finger have been secret loves since their childhood and she just kept it secret, and they planned to rule the seven kingdoms together, he being the hand of the King, and her being the mother of the King, if they successfully placed Robb on the iron throne. We will just have to speculate though.
couldn't agree more
All this time I was blaming Sansa for starting the war cuz she couldn't keep her mouth shut. I've been so wrong
@@Serenade2461 You were blaming 11-yo girl? Who was sent to the killers' family by her own father?
Reason no. 34,201: Because, it's Thursday!
exactly!
At least the show had the right idea to keep her dead and let Beric keep doing his thing. I don’t think their was a single chapter where Catelyn didn’t do, say or think something that didn’t annoy me.
She also never gives good advice and is constantly not thinking like her son is trying to win a war. I mean trading the most notorious knight in the Lannister army for the promise for 2 girls, 1 of which nobody has seen since Ned was arrested.
It seems all of the Tully’s besides Brynden are completely useless.
How the hell even Tullys became so powerfull house, if the most witty, skilled, experienced and wise one of them is considered a black sheep of his family (Blackfish). Just wow.
I love this series. It's so gratifying to see other people despise Catelyn Tully and her selfishness as much as I do. This bitch influenced her easily manipulated daughter to be a hussy like her and caused thousands to die because of her short-sightedness including members of her own family which led to both her family and her married family's downfall. I also love the hate both of you have in your voices when even talking about Robb's self-appointed chief war advisor. "Not even having the decency to stay dead after the red wedding" that was brilliantly brutal 😂. Will definitely be subscribing!
before making this series (which started off on the wrong foot because people acted like we were talking about their mothers) we thought we were the only people who felt this way
and thank you
I think Lysa and Catelyn both agreed to finish off their husbands for future of their bastards by little finger.
I absolutely love this series! Catelyn has been on my shit from when Jon was saying goodbye to Bran. She's definitely got her share of Tully schizoid tendencies. I'm sorry to say.. I was thrilled when she was taken out (Sorry, NOT sorry) Thanks for making my day!
Our Pleasure! Hope you enjoy.
I2amAsecretTarg 7
totally agree with you. i liked her, what she said to Jon would have hurt him. Your reasoning is sound why did she not inform Robb what Ned had said in preparation for a War. TOotGH Love your video's, i'm a new sub. WHAT NEXT lol i have 18 months before S8 starts.
freyedat theedges her hatred for jon is completely irrational considering he has been a brother to all her children she earned her fate
Me too. In heading to The Faceless Men next...
Brienne is the epitome of honour, and Catelyn's hanging her in the books when she became Lady Stonehart...well, of all her stupidities before that point, THAT was the straw which broke the camel's back for me. The actress was tremendous in the TV series or I'd have completely loathed Catelyn.
This was a really good series--categorizing Catelyn's suckitude, thanks so much!
I do wish Cat had found out Jon was her nephew before she died, that would have been fascinating to see her justify her behavior toward Jon, because she never seems to reflect about whether her past choices were the right ones or not.
I missed this series back when you published it, but am very happy to see this now. Cat totally sucks. Agreed!
I have a couple of other notes about how Cat was a terrible mother. Cat treated Sansa like a porcelain doll to keep on the shelf, and brush her hair occasionally,, but she never prepared Sansa or Arya to become a high lady. Both those girls should have been playing cup brearer for Ned to learn about politics. Cat's father actually cultivated that in Cat. Instead Cat hands the girls off to Septa Mordane, allowing Septa Mordane to insult and disrespect Arya, and praise Sansa at every turn, creating enmity between the girls. Mordane takes her cues from Cat, "Arya needs refinement" means its open season on Arya for Mordane.
In later Jon chapters we find out Cat mostly called Jon " Bastard" and encouraged Sansa to call him her "Half Bother." Theon even mentions how awful Lady Stark was to him. Cat is a covert narcissist who is very invested in appearing like a good mother, but once you take a closer look it all falls apart.
Wow, I never fully realized how utterly chaotic she is. Thank you, Order!
I would love you to do a video about the House Tully characters that George named after Muppets. If you ever get around to cover it, I will love your channel more than Cookie Monster loves cookies.
Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed that while reading Fire and Blood Volume One.
I feel like in the last book, with the help of Bran's superpowers, George will unveil ALL of the secret schemes that went on during all the books and we will just be agape and reconsider how much we actually like or dislike certain characters.
To be fair, when she tells everyone to "keep quiet", so KNOWS they will talk, which is why she said she was going to Winterfell.
What she should have done was to say she was going to The Eyrie or even to Riverrun, but then actually go to Winterfell (like she was supposed to).
Of course, she probably should just not have captured Tyrion in the first place...
A GREAT end to a GREAT series. Also, whoa you guys! So excited to have a gotten a mention!!
you're one of our favorites and you had a comment that was more than worthy of a shout-out
You will not have an argument with me about Catelyn making some god awful decisions but given the setting, you can't convince me she is a terrible person.
Was she shitty to Jon, yes but despite what you keep saying even a bastard is a threat to her lineage. Let's say Rob dies, Jon and Joffery become friends Robert dies Joffery legitimizes Jon. Not likely but possible, or Northern families get sick of Rob so they prop up Jon. Ned asks Robert to legitimize Jon, Rob dies now Jon has Winterfell. Point being this is feudalism and shit happens. I mean the war of the five kings happened largely because it wasn't clear who had claim to the iron throne. Also the Blackfyre Rebellions happened.
Her deal with the Freys wasn't terrible, I mean yes they should fight for the Riverlands but houses will always defect when fighting the crown. And as crooked as Walder is you had to give him something pretty juicy to throw his neck out for you.
I believe given George's writing style that she wasn't thinking about all those things in detail during sex just some exposition.
In conclusion I think you guys are fun but you conflate things like the people from ancient aliens. We think that this means Catelyn... (next video) We know Catelyn did this ... earlier so this .... makes it worst. It's the classic I think this is happening and after the commercials it magically turned to fact.
In the medieval world, the vision was that the world was held together by "love" or some other 'moral' order. Shakespeare's tragedies reveal a similar model: A great sin breaks the moral order and sends the world into chaos... and order returns after the death of an innocent. Here we are dealing with a world that has been precipitated into chaos... by Little Finger... and the whole story is about a world out of order, in which people are constantly improvising because the normal assumptions are not working any longer... There are few areas of this is saga where people have been doing things the same way for a long time and can anticipate or plan. Cathelyn is just an agent... that miscalculates and is quite imperfect ... but so are the others. Ned miscalculates, Rob miscalculates, Bolton miscalculates, Cersei miscalculates, Oberyn miscalculates, Theon!!, Yara!! Stannis!! Melisandre, Renly, even Oleana T., The sand vipers, the Dornish princess (not in the TV series). We have very few heroes... like the Blackfish, Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sam, Brienne, Jorah, and they too miscalculate or are betrayed. It is all pretty relentless. Sansa, like a good Tully, will also overestimate her power, Arya is also getting pretty sure of herself... . And Dany learns about her limitations early enough. I can't see Cathelyn as an exception.
Not only did Ned not want the children with her, he preferred that they be in King' s Landing, which Ned didn't think it's safe for him let alone them.
one other thing... albeit Very late. in Zombie shows and movies most adults will die and get other adults killed to protect a child, Any Child, this woman can't even bring herself to do that! in the extras on history and lore, even the Blackfish admits that the Tully family has always used marriage to produce and amass power. She viewed Sansa as her key to power, Ned was expendable and so were the 2 children that looked like him being Jon and Arya. When shit happened she viewed Robb as an even better pawn with Sansa being another pawn. Damn😲 she is as sick as Cersei. Actually she is much worse, Cersei didn't want to use Myrcella as a wedding pawn even though it was actually a decent move
I still consider Joffrey and Ramsey Bolton worse. However, I could never stand her in the first place and now I know why. No, it's not her incompetence that made her an agent of death and chaos, but the fact that she shares some traits with my father. I honestly can't understand how someone can consider her good, after seeing how she treated Jon Snow. These people have apparently no idea how it is to live with the knowledge of being unwanted and being constantly at war in a place where you should feel safe.
I couldn't stand Cersey either, but I did understand her motives. She did have two redeeming scenes: one with Robert and one with Ned. Still she was more ruthless and cruel. Without these two women GoT would have been a (relatively) peaceful place.
Joffrey and Ramsey are more sadistic psychopaths, but she causes more death and destruction than any other character
You guys sure put a lot of stock into the idea that the Freys would ever honor their vow of fealty. It's pretty clear that the Freys were just going to sit the War out, and Blackfish strutting in an arrogantly demanding their service is just guaranteeing that they won't join Robb. The deal Catelyn cut with Walder was actually one of her only good decisions.
I have a crazy idea. Catelyn is acting like a woman with a secret she is trying to keep. What if she did have an affair with Balish. What if she believes some of her kids are Peter's. What if protecting her children future is because she cheated on Ned as she believed Ned did to her. She ignores all by her sweet Robin...sorry I mean Brann. Tullys are cruel and obsessed.....tell me what you think? Am I as crazy as a Tully for thinking this?? It's more than just Jon, or Lannisters it seems....
there are timeline issues with Peter being the father of one of her kids...but having doubts about everything she does is definitely not crazy
Thank you for the clarification. She really is a Cassandra. Love your stuff, keep it coming, and thanks.
Thank you so much
I have to seriously question your assertion hat Robb could've just demanded that Walder Frey let him cross the Twins. If all it would've taken was an invocation of the Freys' fealty to the Tullys, one has to wonder why they hadn't already come to Riverrun when Edmure had called his banners. In addition, Tywin Lannister himself said that Walder Frey was unlikely to join the war against the Lannisters unless he could be fairly certain of victory, and victory was far from certain when Robb arrived at the Twins. Given that you made a multi-part series on what a brilliant politician Tywin was, the fact that he thought that Frey wouldn't join the war should really say something.
That would leave Robb with one option other than negotiating: threatening to take the Twins by force. Now, maybe Wader Frey's cautious nature would have gotten the better of him, and he would've backed down and let Rob cross. Maybe. But he knew how strong of a defensive position he had. The Blackfish, Roose Bolton, and Helman Tallhart all warned Robb that he couldn't take the Twins, at least not easily. Storming the Twins would've cost time and men which he didn't have to spare. In that time, word likely would've reached Jaime's host of Robb trying to cross the Twins, ruining the element of surprise that was so important in Whispering Wood. Plus, Tywin's host might've taken them in the rear, trapping them between the Lannister and Frey armies.
If Walder Frey called Robb's bluff, he would've been left with a choice: storm the castle, and likely lose the war, or back down, meaning he would have an even weaker negotiating position with Walder Frey, as he would know that Robb wouldn't follow through with his threats. Then Robb would've been presented with another choice, accept whatever absurd terms Walder Frey offered him to cross the bridge, or abandon his plan altogether and bring his full force against Tywin's host, abandoning Riverrun to its fate.
So no, I don't think that it was Catelyn's fault that Robb and Arya had to be betrothed to Freys in order for Robb to cross the Twins. All in all, it was a miracle that Catelyn managed to get the Freys to join their side at all. A miracle that even managed to surprise the Machiavelli of Westeros himself, Tywin Lannister.
Tbh I blame Hoster and the Tully's in general for not keeping their bannerman in check(a good rain of castamere wouldn't hurt with that) and/or for not strengthening both houses alliance by, oh idk, having Edmure marry one of the Frey girls, specially since Walder asked for that in the first place, and his(geographical) position is kinda pivotal in Westeros.
The negotiator could have been either Cat or Brynden. Now I think Brynden was the better choice because first he is a guy in a patriarchal society second he is the brother of his Lord and lastly if he twisted the truth a bit he might have been able to speak in the name of his brother and Robb so he could offer Edmure and Arya, besides possibly getting more agreeable terms.
But yeah I agree that the situation was bad to begin with and they did the best they could to salvage it
You guys forgot about Catelyn's last thoughts before she died. No dont cut my hair
Real nice your son died right in front of you and that is what goes through your mind.
touche
The Order of the Green Hand yeah think about how crazy or selfish you would have to be to have your son murdered in front of you and all your husbands friend brutally dying around you and you are worried about your hair
to me, it sums her up in a single sentence
The Order of the Green Hand Yeah after seeing this i took a shoot of pepsi in George's honor over how well he hid catelyns true personality
He is easily one of the best I’ve ever seen at hiding clues in plain sight
17:52 You're not right to blame Sansa. By that time she was 11 and she had already been betrayed by her father twice - when he agreed to marry her off to the family of (to the best of his knowledge) killers and when he killed her direwolf. Ned basically told her she must fend for herself now.
So....becoming a murderous heartless zombie is a character improvement. Maybe she'll take the next step up by becoming a white walker.
hahaha
Well this character maybe one of the most surprising to me. I never thought the things this way. She fuck all up. Great job guys.
LoL just waiting for Winds of Winter to be released and the order of the Green Hand has to write a Part 6.
Nicholas Jagannath because she’s not that bad 🤦🏿♀️
Everyone fixes on her treatment of Jon, and the decision to capture Tyrion, but her fucking playing at war trying to secure alliances and undermining Robb in front of his men really encapsulates her character. She wouldn't have had to resort to freeing Jaime Lannister to secure Sansa and Arya due to her grief over Bran and Rickon... if she'd gone home to be a mother to Bran and Rickon
I agree that she fucked up royally on many occasions, but I don't agree about the whole convoluted secret bastards thing. She was just a dyed-in-the-wool believer in the way of things. She believed that the order of birth should determine who leads. That a system based on oaths and honor - in a world jam-packed full of dishonorable people - was a good system. That no highborn lord would DARE break guest-rights.
She also believed that people with noble blood were inherently better than lowborns, and that bastards were inherently treacherous. She feared the Starks having their own version of a Blackfyre rebellion. Pride and prejudice mixed with a huge dose of misplaced jealousy. That's it. That's enough. There's enough reason to dislike her without busting out the tin-foil.
You started from a place of (understandable) hate for the character, formed a theory about why she would REALLY fear and resent Jon so much and specifically looked for evidence to prove your conclusion. But you can "prove" almost any crazy-ass theory that way. Have you seen the Alt Shift X video jokingly making the case that Ser Pounce is Azor Ahai?
ua-cam.com/video/M7sh3rG96Ew/v-deo.html
"THE knock instead of A knock" means that she knew it was coming... even though it's referred to as "unexpected" at the end of the sentence? You're reaching like Stretch Armstrong, there. And you put it up on the screen in all caps like that and read it adding extra emphasis to it, and magically it seems really significant. But... it's not capitalized in the text. It's an innocuous little lower case "the" in the middle of a sentence. It's not at all out of the ordinary to refer to it that way... unless you need it to be.
Too true Sir.
Just re-reading the first book and I came across an interesting passage that made me think of this video.
Catelyn VII (page 436, paragraph 3):
Lysa had named Cersei in the letter she had sent to Winterfell, but now she seemed certain that Tyrion was the killer . . . perhaps because the dwarf was here, while the queen was safe behind the walls of the Red Keep, hundreds of leagues to the south. Catelyn almost wished she had burned her sister's letter BEFORE reading it.
Now... these are her inner thoughts. So, unless she has a split-personality or something, that letter actually DID say what she said it said.
zardox78 Yes good find Sir, I can actually hardly believe this video series.
This is what I said in my comment : The hypocrisy in this ... Catelyn is evil because she wishes gone with her bastard son (I am against this but can understand her), and by making unwise decisions, despite having good intended outcomes (Is Ned evil as well?) ... where as you think that this women deserved to have her son murdered in front of her, and then her throat slit from from ear to ear ... at her eldest's wedding ... beyond me, the only way I can justify is if this whole video series was a ploy to test the gullibility of your subscribers, I have honestly loved your other videos, great thought and consideration goes into them, but I can't see any of that in this.
This is what I said in my comment : The hypocrisy in this ... Catelyn is evil because she wishes gone with her bastard son (I am against this but can understand her), and by making unwise decisions, despite having good intended outcomes (Is Ned evil as well?) ... where as you think that this women deserved to have her son murdered in front of her, and then her throat slit from from ear to ear ... at her eldest's wedding ... beyond me, the only way I can justify is if this whole video series was a ploy to test the gullibility of your subscribers, I have honestly loved your other videos, great thought and consideration goes into them, but I can't see any of that in this.
I think the first letter was from Little Finger. After years of attempting to get Jon kicked out and failing, she must have asked her childhood friend for help. For Baelish, it was opportunity he was looking for. There has to be a reason he took Sansa under his wing other than for just looking eerily like her mother. He must have hoped Sansa's attempts to play the Game of Thrones, like her aunt's and mother's will cause more chaos which he can use to advance himself.
He does not realize that Sansa is a wolf within, deep within admittedly, and adversity only makes her stronger, more cunning and ruthless. I do not know about the books but in the show, she played him, squeezed out everything of use from him and executed him after his use was over.
*nods*
He also utterly missed Arya's potential for causing mayhem to all enemies of the Starks. Though, to be fair, I don't think that ANYONE, least of all Arya Stark, ever even dreamed of her becoming what she became in the TV series (I don't think that the books have gotten that far into Arya's arc as yet)
Book Sansa is developing political accumen (or LF lets her think so) It's in LF's best interest to keep Sansa uneducated and easier to manipulate, which he is certainly doing. It's repeatedly pointed out that Sansa is stupid by everyone who meets her. She lacks any other sort of relevant education, and would fail miserably trying to rule anything larger than a bath tub because it's more than just playing the game. You have to win the war, yes, but you also have to win the peace that comes after. It's not her fault, entirely, but it is the truth. Arya is better than Sansa at everything that doesn't involve sewing or womanly pursuits, including managing a household. In keeping with the whole repeating a lie doesn't make it true theme, Arya is not a lady and Jon is a bastard. One of them will end up with Winterfell, guaranteed.
I never liked her, but you've unearthed new reasons for a pure disgust for her. I can't believe I didn't see the conspiring between Maester Lewen and Catelyn before. You've made it painfully obvious. I wonder if GRRM has ever discussed Catelyn's character at any length and if he intended to portray her they way you've explained. AAAAGGGHHH!!! What else have I missed reading these books? As soon as you discover a layer you think you're done, only to find another layer. Great job Order! Thank you for these vids.
thank you so much! i felt the same as you (never liked her, now its disgust). Dave actually asked George if our interpretation of that scene with Luwin was accurate, and he actually responded! He said, "no comment," and then scolded Dave for asking a question that was off topic from the thread post. But I think that's pretty telling. Also, they actually shot the original scene for the pilot the way its portrayed in the books, and it got changed/cut from the pilot that got aired. Maybe when it actually played out on screen, it was just way too glaring, and I think he wants to shock people a little with her character.
Let me see is I read that correctly: You mean to tell me that DAVE BENIOFF asked GEORGE R R MARTIN about YOUR theory of Catelyn and Luwin conspiring to get rid of Jon and force Ned to go to KL??? Do you think he said "no comment" because DB was off topic? Or he didn't want to give Catelyn's true character away? If the latter, why not? Why would he want to keep her assholery a secret? Even though she is slightly more likeable in the show, it's obvious that she's an awful person, even without the books layers you've peeled back. Can't imagine that there's any more to Catelyn's story to reveal. UGH! I hope not.
No no no sorry! Dave as in Ser Green Hand hahahh asked George rr Martin :)
+L&C Newell no sorry. Dave is Sir Green Hand's name
The Tullys really are the house of stupid 🤣
the reason she thinks "so soon" is because she expected to be found out that she is in kings landing but she didn't expect it as she was arriving at the city
but she expected LF to summon/find her that quickly...it was in response to seeing his sigil, which she shouldn't have even recognized because the last time she saw him it was a roaring titan and she claims she hasn't had any contact with him since
the first sentence should have had a ? at the end
The Order of the Green Hand she was told who summoned her but the gold cloak....she was expecting to be found out eventually she just didn't expect it "so soon" the fact that it was little finger was a surprise to her....she hadn't thought of LF for a while before that. she assumed that the guy with the sideburns was found out when he went to the armory to ask about the dagger. she wasn't expecting little finger
she and Rodrik had a very strange conversation about LF earlier in that very chapter, before they even got off the boat
you dropped another "thank the GODS" hahahaha comedic timing is on point . Hey, other asoiaf channels, this channel is one of maybe TWO original content pumpers. They actually re-read the text over and over to pick up on subtleties, they don't rehash old theories from other fans.
How can a man read a book without seemingly never reading it?
that question will appear in abundance when ned is confirmed jons father. it all makes sense now. i'm thinking littlefinger and the tully twits are behind it
haahaha...thanks liam
Found yall's channel two weeks ago, I am floored. Amazing job, ive watched all of your content and im really impressed. Yall will have 100,00k in no time. I like Preston Jacobs and the two of you have the same insight and vigor and a great perspective. So many people are repeating the same things over and over and its not even original. Yall are a cut above. Im a red subscriber and ill be watching everything yall do!
thank you so much
Ned Cat and Rob all make mistakes. If only Ned had let Loras lead the band to bring the mountain to justice, the Tyrells would never have been able to side with the Lannisters.
+Blood Raven he was also correct in his assumption of why Loras wanted to go, but you are absolutely right in saying that if Loras died in that ambush the Tyrells most likely would not have aligned themselves with the Lannisters. I guess Stannis would rue that decision the most
THE knock... THE man... Does he know about..... great video!!
thank you
As horrible as she is, Ned’s death was his own fault. He confronted cerci about her incest and told her that he will tell Robert. This resulted in cerci killing Robert, then once he died, ned made a claim to be lord protector, which would give him full authority while Joffrey and cerci would have almost none. Thinking that Joffrey and cerci would agree to that. The war didn’t start with Tyrion, it started when rob wanted to get revenge for the death of his father.
Robert was already gone when Ned confronted Cersei...I find it difficult to blame Ned for what he did...he would have had to anticipate Robert being killed by a boar, which seems a bit much...if Catelyn didn't take Tyrion, Ned and her daughters wouldn't have even been in King's Landing...they were about to leave, when Ned and his men were ambushed in the street and Ned's leg got crushed
The Order of the Green Hand ned didn’t know how exactly cerci would react. To think she would do nothing was naive. Lancel gave Robert extra strong wine while on the hunting trip. Only cerci would organise that. Ned trusted Petyr even after he said not to trust him. Ned trusted everyone, even after Petyr told him there were spies everywhere. He honestly thought he could tell everyone his intentions and give orders where he wasn’t in charge and nothing would happen. Catlyn is a horrible person however Ned was also naive. If he listened to Petyr then he would’ve been safer.
The Order of the Green Hand the exact reason why he was executed was because he went into public to declare he was the lord protector. He was accused of trying to take the crown for himself. After Jaime attacked him, he was still the hand of the king, he wasn’t arrested until after he looked into Baratheon history. While being hand of the king, after hearing what the mountain did, he ordered that Tywin be forcefully brought to king’s landing. Petyr advises against this but Ned didn’t listen.
The Order of the Green Hand Rob also lost men because he killed lord karstark. This drove roose Bolton to side with Tywin given rob now had less men and was losing. Catlyn told him not to. Maybe she should’ve insisted more but still it was robs stupid decision.
Great series. One question I'd like to ask GRRM is whether there was some relationship he endured which he based this character on. It's very strange that he gives the illusion of strength to a character yet her every major decision ends up digging a deeper hole of destruction for her family. As well, I continue to remain confused as to why he resurrects her from the dead to make her live out her days as an undead horror. Seems to me GRRM may be vicariously hating someone through Catelyn.
I've read that he has a thing for red-heads, so it could be entirely possible that he dated a red-headed wrecking ball at some point
Just watched the entire Catelyn sucks series. I have to say I agree with the whole Catelyn sucks part. Especially with her treatment of Jon. He was a child without a mother. He didn't deserve her treatment of him. Also, I think that she was more naive, inept and ill-equipped to actually play the Game of Thrones, unlike Cersei who learned at the heels of Tywin Lannister. I have a feeling that she was being manipulated by Littlefinger through Lysa.... possibly the letter from "Lysa" was actually from Littlefinger? After all, Littlefinger would only consider Eddard, Robb, Bran and Rickon to be in his way.
I would say that she's probably kicking herself in the afterlife.
You can also add that Littlefinger is still alive because Catelyn begged Brandon Stark not to kill him when they were dueling for her hand.
so true
Katherine Maloney and from there everyone got screwed.
Coming back to this, and I'm just thinking: Family, Duty, Honor. How ironic it is that the person who lives up to these words the most is Ned Stark, the man who loves his family most of all, truly understands duty, and lives and breathes honor. Clearly, those "Tully" traits were passed to the Stark kids from their father, not their mother.
I was honestly expecting to disagree and dislike all these videos, but they make a lot of sense and now I'm a hater of Catelyn stark
Cat prays at a Sept and the idols started to look like her kids. Because she is an agent of the great other and sees her kids modeling themselves in the shape of church of starry wisdom as a fine thing. That why her kids have such problems:she prayed for them.
Just thinking about how Jon Snow could’ve helped Robb in the War Of The Five Kings makes me hate her more, he brokered a deal with the Iron Bank for Gods Sake! He knew how to play The Game WITHOUT being hated and he was a master battle commander to the point where he had Stannis fighting his proxy war and even Cersei Lannister saw him as a big enough threat to warrant an assassination, I dare say if Jon was by his brother’s side instead of the Stoneheart then House Stark would have slaughtered the Lannisters.
Analyzing Catelyn reminds me of Hanlon's Razor.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
I don't think Catelyn is evil, I think she's just incompetent. Except for her treatment of Jon, of course. Absolutely vile.
That pic of Ned is hilarious 11:07. Well played
Thank you! haha we were torn between two of your comments to add at the end, the other one was about how she never used his name, and you're like what the hell did she call him then? i cant remember the exact words but it was golden
The Order of the Green Hand ha! I recall that one. That part from the books really threw me for a loop. It is absurdly cold to have never used his name in 14 years.
every time we read the books we are more disgusted by her than we were the time before it...and that is borderline remarkable to never use the kids name...and your question still hasn't been answered...what did she call him? she called him bastard earlier in that exchange, but there is no way Ned would have taken kindly to her calling him that in front of him, which makes me seriously wonder if she literally never addressed him once in 14 years in front of Ned
I am reading the books and am almost done with AFFC. Even after reading the first three books, I did not fully appreciate how terrible she was to Jon. Perhaps the TV adaptation had muddied it for me a bit. For instance, there was the scene on the show where she confided in Robb's wife that she'd prayed for Jon to die, but then nursed him back to health out of guilt. She also said she begged Ned to legitimize him. I rather liked her on the show, but none of that happened in the books. Your videos have made me go back and pay attention. I guess we are left to conclude that she truly ignored a child for 14 years.
13k, a channel is growing.
crazy right!? thanks to OGH warriors, like yourself!
Let it be known, that from this day forth, we are the Original Gangster Hand warriors.
OGH
Another great video. One thing though, you mentioned previously about how the whole arranged marriage between Robb and one of the Frey girls should have never happened because the Freys owe allegiance to the Tullys, but I'm not sure exactly how they would have pulled it off without bargaining something away. The Freys are known for being unruly and despicable with no allegiance to anyone other than themselves. He seemed to have the upper hand in this situation, how do think this situation should have resolved? Keep up the good work and I'm looking forward to your next littlefinger video. I hope you guys will cover Varys as well! :)
Can you do a video about how awesome Jamie is?
Jaime will get his own video or three in the future
I brought up a little boy who took a lot of calculated physical risks. It was clear to me that Cat is a control freak and a total idiot who has no regard for the safety of others when, in one of her first scenes on the show, she YELLS at Bran when his is dangerously high up on the wall. NEVER DO THAT!