He was extremely capable and skilled. However, he fought on the side of an incest bastard in the end and that ruined his reputation forever. Also, the killing of Rhaegars babies + Red wedding is hard to justify.
Both characters make me think of one of my favorite quotes of all time: "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood."- Otto Von Bismarck
that's shockingly similar to what Maegor said to Damon Morrigen right before the Trial by Seven..."let us not bandy words...swords will decide this matter."
I can agree on Maegor, but while Tywin was a very competent hand and lord, his horrible fathership skills are a main factor in the current decline in house Lannister. However, both men are very interesting characters and I liked listening to your arguments ❤️
I agree with your views on Maegor but I think Tywin calcified a bit too hard as he aged losing the adaptability of his youth and was a bit blind to his family despite his general awareness of human psychology and strategy.
I think there is a bitter tragedy and irony in Tywin's life that affects how he treats his family, specifically if Tyrion is a Targaryen (there is evidence for this that The Order of the Green Hand preseneted in one of the Tywin - The Machiavelli of Westeros videos, but I forget which one it was). Out of all of his "children", Tyrion is the most like Tywin as they share many of the same characteristics, virtues and vices. Although Tyrion tends to make his vices publicly known, Tywin keeps them hidden as best as he can. Perhaps that stengthens Tywin's resentment towards Tyrion. I think Tywin Lannister of the great Casterly Rock, a man of callus who is driven to strengthen his family's dynasty, sees an unwanted reflection of himself that the world can also see in the frivolous and stunted Targaryen that he is forced to give his family name to as means of protecting the honour of his beloved wife, a wife who was taken from him by giving birth to that very Targaryen bastard nonetheless. It is no surprise that he was blinded when it came to his family, Tywin is human after all.
Amenon1994 Tyrion was a master manipulator(owned small council) and a decent strategist(a bit risky but good plan to destroy ships with wildfire or to invoke fear to every traitor by letting Joffrey decide his fate) but he was a bad ruler and invoked hate towards his family name.He brought savages that in the books is implied they raped and sacked Kings Landing.People starved because of his incompetence to solve problems like finding food or make the city safe, a fact that started a rebelion. When Tywin arrived he instantly found a way to bring food to citizens.That means whatever bargain had with Mace Tyrell that involved bringing food to the table of citizens except a military alliance.I don't think Tywin was a fool or blind against Tyrion at all.I think he gave him a task that was difficult but best suited for his talents and that was to keep Joffrey and Cersei under control (and Tyrion was a success).Also, I don't think Tywin and Tyrion have the same keen mind.
You two are a blessing when my insomnia is at it's worst. I can't tell you how many greenhand marathons I have had. I adore and have a huge amount of respect for the amount of effort you put into your work. Your voices are perfect for these videos as well. Long live The Order of the Greenhand.
Greetings Lord and Lady Greenhand, Speaking of Maegor, I've been thinking: well, the guy killed his second wife and almost her entire family only because she gave birth to a difformed child, that's an act that surely defined someone as cruel, no? Unless, the story we are told is a lie. Could it be in fact that Maegor guessed the faith wanted to harm Alys and her family and decided to smuggle them away to Essos and then pretended he had killed them? I'd really like to read your thougts on the matter.
Another son of Machiavelli. Tywin has a song about him wiping out a house so I don't know if he is unsung, but it is definitely not about a hero.. ^^ Maegor is a beast. Love the video.
I believe that they thrived in crisis management, but floundered in peace. With Aerys II Tywin's scheming to create more power for his house created conflict and turmoil within the realm that aided in his house's downfall, and his mission of consolidating power completely obliterated his children's growth beyond pleasing him. Maegor seems to be similar to Randyll Tarly as well in that he is a soldier to the bone and willing to do whatever it took to keep his family surviving (and it echos in Kevan's thoughts of Tarly being a good Hand only for peace), but could not put himself aside for the betterment of his family when the faith was on it's last breath. He could not sue for peace because he did not understand how. That was a fabulous comparison, however, as I am just speaking on what contributed to their downfalls.
If you compare the burning The Sept of Remembrance with The Rains of Castamere and it looks like the water/fire theme of the Rhoynar vs Valyrians. Think about it, The Valyrians fought with fire and the group of people who were defeated by the Valyrians fought with water. Idk if im looking too deep into it but I thought it was worth mentioning.
You make a very good point. There are plenty of historical figures who have been vilified for actions that they probably had no choice about, such as Oda Nobunaga. Martin bases ASOIAF on history, so why would it be any different?
How is stannis a hero? That guy follows the law to an extend that is just crazy. If he had not been that focused on following laws, westerosi would now be peacefully ruled by renly! (Yes, I am a huge fan of renly:D)
ever since i learned of the multiple spinoff projects. a Tywin Lannister spinoff has always been on top of my list of things that could be interresting. too bad Charles Dance can't magicly de age... xD also i am a bit dissapointed by their choice for the first one to be about the long night.. i mean the current tv series has already been all about the war with the others and the prevention of humanities extiction.
we're hoping we'll have a lot to add to our analysis of Maegor...I think we're going to go in order and break down all the Targ Kings with all the new information we get from Fire and Blood
Thanks for the upload, This just made my night. Its hard for me to admit but i was actually mad and have been (internally) throwing shade at your channel. i would never had guessed that a cancelled Livestream would have triggered such strong emotions in me. New content seems to have brought me back to my senses though. I no longer feel the resentment towards you and your channel that i had felt just an hour ago.
It's amazing how you guys manage to not only make a great video every time that shows how much effort was put in it but it captivates me every time. Man! Ever thought of writing some books of your own? Cause I'd love reading that. If not at least a 10 hours long video. Wish you the best guys. Wish I could donate and help a lil but... I hope I will soon enough. Best of luck.
What i'm looking most forward to in Fire & Blood is the Maegor section and since i work across from a book store (and ordered a copy) i can likely spend my lunch break reading.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand technically he was fighting a cult not a church. Also what do you guys think of the theory of Order 66 happening to the dragonlords
@@johngrimes5852 one is bigger than the other and is accepted as a public form of worship. I'm probably wrong m but that's been my understanding at least
Thank you for this nice video. Grey characters are my favorites as well, as I can't stand shallow heroes, nor people that are evil just because. Grey characters are often able to do things we wouldn't dare, but also get forced into some moral dilemmas, where we can explore our own morality. I also like when their decisions have consequences for better or worse, leaving us with the what if...
Just saw the clip from the podcast you did with Red team review and just wanted to say your “nontypical” theories were the main reason I subbed. I might not always agree but from the level of time and the evidence you give I can’t ever ridicule you . You guys keep up the good work
Rank all 17 Targaryen kings. Here I'll go first: 1.Jaehaerys I (conciliator) 2.Aegon I (conqueror) 3.Viserys II 4.Daeron II (thegood) 5.Aegon V (egg) 6.Maegor I 7.Maekar I 8.Aerys I 9.Jaehaerys II 10.Viserys I 11..Daeron I (youngdragon) 12.Baelor 13.Aegon III 14.Aenys 15.Aegon II 16.Aerys II 17.Aegon IV
Now to Maegor. > Maegor didn't have a choice but to kill a few hundred builders because they belonged to the Faith and could reveal the secrets of his holdfast. Maegor had a choice to bring some other builders who were unconnected to the Faith. Like, from Essos. At least he could have sent them away somewhere far away from King's Landing or Oldtown.
Alaric reminds me of ned. Hard to his people as that is needed to keep lords in line in a harsh land and make sure the laws are followed. And in private will boasr about his kids being truly proud of them and loving them. Ned is the same. His kids saw both the warm father and harden leader thry needed to see to have empathy and respect. Glad jon got raised ny him instead of cat who made sure he knew he was unwanted. I feel she projected much as she is a southerner and same as jorahs wife. Didn't like the cold north much and left as sson as she could. Even sansa is this way. Wanted to keep a singer whej he wanted to leave. Weird how many ignored the bad. Thats not what makes a character good. Lots of girls i comment to always praise cat as a super women. Guess its different for who reads the books and studies the characters
Tywin should have been King. Tyrion should of been his Hand. Kevin should have been Master of Coin and Master of Ships. Tada the realm would of prospered.
After reading F&B I was shocked at how cruel Maeghar (sp?) was. Seems like GRRM modeled him after a Nero or Caligula type character, or perhaps Dracula (not the vampire but the man)
What I like to imagine is what Tywin would have done, (had he lived long enough to still be in charge) when Jon and Danny came with proof of the Dead. Now Tywin is in my opinion t. MASTER of his emotions. He’s NOT mad. I think he’d instantly see the unparalleled threat the Night King was and called an instant end to all fighting on his end. And joined whole heartedly with Jon and Danny provided that House Lannister be spare destruction
Honestly, if it came down to it, I would order the same thing Maegor did to the builders, much as I would have hated myself for it. I would have at least found (or tried to find) a relatively painless method, but honestly? A sword to the neck would have been far kinder than whatever the zealots would have done to them. I at least hope Maegor saw that the families of the builders, if they had them, were taken care of.
I would have had the builder's tongs out, then send them to the wall via ships, thus increasing the protection of the kingdom and denying the faith the ability to question them. and they don't die. and as builders would be much appreciated by the watch and thus the north.
I wish I had the bux to buy lots of merchandise to support the channel, but Social Security only goes so far; but whatever I *can* do I'll be happy to because ya'all rock AND my mind loves the deep analysis and criticism you two provide :-) Keep up the amazing work, it is appreciated!
I dont think most people would do these things, but then they would die and their family would suffer. They had to do the hard things that 99% of people couldnt have brought themselves to do, that's why they're great and evil men
At Mel's urging he burned a bunch of people on the beaches of Dragon Stone, and in the show burning Shareen which it maybe a similar end for her in the books. The similarities of these men are lack of humour or very dry humour, very strict, sense of duty, martial abilities, and the expectation that he should be the one who rule.
More or less agree, but Tywin Lannister arranging of the Red Wedding will turn Rob Stark into not only a martyr but a legend in the North. Think about it, "He never lost a battle," that's what's said about Rob Stark. From the perspective of the Northmen, this only proves that Southron people are treacherous which is disastrous for House Lannister in the long run, because the Northmen will not be as likely to want to be a part of the Seven Kingdoms which had killed their hero, not fair and square, but treacherously. The Red Wedding won the War of the 5 Kings, but it had planted the seeds of many rebellions.
So huge fan of Tywin...And we can also add some overrated heroes like Tyrion.Tywin offered him Winterfell,a beautiful woman named Sansa Stark and he didn't asked anything except to solidify the marriage(>10 mins) and he was like:"Nah pap.I prefer whores of the same age". I got pissed.I'm going to review Catlin Tully's videos... :) ua-cam.com/video/VgaNXPOD9wY/v-deo.html
I mean Maegor could just declare himself Regent, Hand and Protector of the Realm instead of Stealing his nephew's throne, killing him and taking his sister-wife (aka Maegor's niece). That would still allow him to do the things necessary to secure the reign of house Targaryen. Also Tywin not caring about his legacy is the worst lie I ever heard. Legacy of House Lannister was literally everything to the man.
You also have to consider how evil the Faith of the Seven must be for allowing the Andal kings of Westeros to fight each other. Six out of seven kings in Westeros were Faith of the Seven adherents, and yet the High Septon, the one guy who had his own private army of Faith Militant AND had spiritual lordship over the Andal kings did NOTHING to stop their infighting? At least the Popes in the real world had difficulties asserting their power over the kings of Europe, and their private armies never amounted to anything as big as the Faith Militant. At most, they had a city guard in the Vatican, some mercenary troops, and the knightly orders, none of which were as big as a royal army from any of the Christian kingdoms. Yet the High Septon, thanks to the Faith Militant, had an army that was large enough to threaten even the dragon-riding Targaryens, and yet he didn't use this army to put an end to the infighting of the Andal kings or unite Southern Westeros. Consider that for a moment. He'd rather let petty kings fight each other and get members of the faith killed so long as the kings followed him, instead of having his private army knock down or pacify the kings one by one and unite the southern half of Westeros under one faith and crown. How evil and incompetent are they to let that go on under their watch? At least the Starks forcibly unified the North against outside threats like the Ironborn and the White Walkers.............
Your comment _a fantasy setting with different morals_ reminds me of a story I've heard about someone trying to play D&D but offending some SJWs, who were terribly upset, that there was no gender equality, equal rights, democracy and rights for homosexuals... The game master allowed them to change all that but then the world gets destroyed, because they were sidetracked for too long without spending a single thought on the lingering doom at the beginning of their story...
Stannis said that in the show too "a man cannot wipe out all his bad deeds with good ones just as all ones good deeds cannot be wiped out by the bad" not verbatim lol
BTW do you think Gael the Winter Child is bastard of Alaric Stark? And that was the reason of second rift between Jaehaerys and Alysanne? Since we known the castle Alysanne stayed is crowned and crowning is a term used in childbirth. Being called Winter Child her story is also similar to Stark Maiden and Bael? Is it possible Gael's child from the singer is Daemon Targaryen? Since he is said to carv 13 to a weirwood (?) tree and Gael was Alysanne's thirteenth child? BTW I think Daemon is an asshole and I can't believe he is George's favorite :(
“What would you do in Jaime’s situation?” Well I can say with complete certainty that I would not be fucking my MARRIED SISTER, sorry George but Jaime was already in the wrong even before he pushed Bran out the window making that a very shit Moral Argument.
@@warrior316 you forget that Barth set the ground work that enabled later hands to even allow the realm to prosper. So shut up. there would be no Tywin or Cregan or literally any good hand had Barth not done his part.
@Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix what did I say wrong? I love Viserys II he was great Hand and King but most if not all the good he did was completely overshadowed by the fact that his son was absolute shit
Hey orderofthegreenhand what do you guys think about the young dragon I feel like his life was really tragic all he wanted to do was show that house targarian was strong with or without dragons yet he was killed at a peace agreement. Also how come no one ever brings up the fact the dornish killed him under false yet flag of peace yet people talk about how he lost to dorne into account how he lost to dorne. I mena dorne did the same thing as tywin yet no noeshits on them for it
there is very little known of him, but he seems like he was quite the young man...very Alexander the Great-like, or at least seemed like he had that potential
I guess that's how the cookie crumbles some of the best human beings with the worst kings and some of the worst human beings were the best Kings apparently there can be no you can't be a good king and a decent human being in a single breath apparently.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand but you can be both, it just requires the decent doesn't get in the way, either due to the opponents and the options available to the king [and his ability to think of them] (desperate times call for desperate measures and all)
Would you guys do a video on the "Tansy" theory? That it's either Lysa being forced to drink the potion to abort her baby or that it's the "Tansy" Arya meets later on? Just recently discovered this theory myself.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I'm rereading the books and came across this tonight. I read that some believe it's something to do with the girl Arya meets. But I, like you, always assumed it was talking and Lysa's abortion. So this other take on it was a bit left field for sure!
The quotes you added about George's view on Heros and grey characters in the beginning are exactly why I still stick to Arthur Dayne being the one who ran off with Lyanna, not Rhaegar. Rhaegar played his role as best friend at Harrenhall and later on, and it led to consequences. There are only 2 characters in the whole series that George presents as pure good: Ned Stark and Arthur Dayne. All honorable, 100% noble. And I do not buy this! We are led to believe this, that is why we as fans love Arthur Dayne because he was a real archtype hero. But listen to Maester Aemons speech to Jon!!! Love is the death of duty. There are consequences to actions, even if they were ment out of love. Arthur Dayne loved. That was his weakness, just as GreyWorm said. And this weakness led to war, the death of his best friend, even to Lyannas death. A hero who had flaws, too. That is why I see George connecting Ned and Arthur in his chapters.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Hey orderofthegreenhand in the roguwe prince's book are their any signs of the greyrats alternating things or essos interference?
One of the.most important scenes to show tywin is great is many small fork are scared rhat without tywin. Who would protect them. Same as with aegon being loved by the small fork. Thats who you want to win over. Which makes me like edmure for trying to help thr small folk while cats uncle thr black fish burned the crops. Thata not who you should help or piss off. Thats why i liked the brotherhood with out banners before cat as it was meant to hlep the small folk for roberts people as its still his throne and land.
Why everybody celebrate Tywin but hate King Maegar, Tywin killed more people than Megar, Tywin erased two Noble Houses & killed all those people at the Red Wedding
Tywin follows the law, but he does so like a crooked lawyer. Red wedding and the slaying of Rhaegars children are the best examples. He gave the order/ochestrated the acts for those events to carry out, but he avoids accountability by leaving the blame on someone else. During the sack of kings landing Tywin allowed wholesale slaughter, rape, and theft to be carried out by his men. Killing his own vassels the reins and the tarbeks was considered lawful but incredibly harsh. Compare that to the starks who let the boltons live after being defeated or stannis sparing about 99% of the wildling "army". Tywin seems to care only for the reputation for his house. He hates tyrion, but he can't lawfully disown him and as soon as there is a chance to kill tyrion it looks like tywin is going to allow it. Tywin also has a line (I can't remember exactly what) that alludes to him plotting to "remove" joffery from the throne in place of tommen. Not necessarily evil but I can think of only one way to remove a king. In short, if you carry out an evil act, but you have legal justifications, then the act is lawful evil. If all the main talking points in your life are lawful evil, then you is lawful evil my dude. Also he plotted Avery's downfall for sure it's just that those plans didn't go well. Had Rhaegar won the trident, there still might have been a sack at kings landing...
I've seen Maegor put on the Crazy Targaryen list. But after reading his chapter in F&B i think he was cruel and sadistic but his actions seemed to have a purpose. Alys (poor Alys) was treated horribly by Maegor but I put that on the bitch Tyanna. He didn't just choose to torture her to death. But though you argue he tried to protect his family, but what purpose did he have for killing Viserys the way he did.
> Jaime didn't have a choice but to throw Bran out of the window, and most people would do the same to save their family. But Jaime did have a choice. He might have chosen a safer place to make out with Cersei, like a closet or a cellar. He might have drawn the curtains (in the book it happens in a regular bedroom with curtains and all). He might have withdrawn from having sex with her at all, as the castle was unknown for them and teeming with random people. Your logical mistake is taking the moment of sex while you should be taking a few moments earlier. Martin probably wanted to get more hype around his books by offering his audience to imagine themselves in Jaime's place. In reality, Martin is the first one to know that the Lannister siblings were the most entitled brats considering themselves as gods, which is not true for most people among Martin's audience. Most people wouldn't have found themselves in Jaime and Cersei's position in the first place. Prioritising sexual pleasure over life of your children is not something common, although it happens, only most of these perverts don't have the possibility to kill people who saw them. Oberyn remembers that Cersei was ready to maim Tyrion's wet nurse for asking her not to bother baby Tyrion. It's implied that Cersei had many people maimed or killed just because they annoyed her. Of course she and Jaime had had some people killed over seeing them before. Which makes their attack on Bran even more cruel. He can't be their first victim. Tywin's and Maegor's situations are different as they are related to the state affairs. You are wrong to put them on the same level of necessity.
This is a question I want anyone to answer please Why did House Targayen let house Baratheon live after they conquered Westerous I mean they essentially were the heirs if the dragon ever died out why keep such a threat alive especially after years of infighting and let;s not forget the Blackfyre wars
That was AMAZING! Thank you for all your work, and I absolutely feel like you did a fantastic job on the video!!
We couldn’t, and wouldn’t have done it without you
"They decided they didn't want to be rebels anymore." Hahaha.
Maegor is one of my favorite characters that we don’t know too much about. I also admire Tywin. He was a shit father, but he was a truly great Lord.
He was extremely capable and skilled. However, he fought on the side of an incest bastard in the end and that ruined his reputation forever. Also, the killing of Rhaegars babies + Red wedding is hard to justify.
Both characters make me think of one of my favorite quotes of all time:
"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood."- Otto Von Bismarck
that's shockingly similar to what Maegor said to Damon Morrigen right before the Trial by Seven..."let us not bandy words...swords will decide this matter."
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand My favorite thing about Martin is how he takes influence from history, it's always so cool!
his writing and research is unparalleled
Iron Chancellor Bismarck! 💪💪
Except Tywin himself used to say some wars are won with pen and paper.
I can agree on Maegor, but while Tywin was a very competent hand and lord, his horrible fathership skills are a main factor in the current decline in house Lannister.
However, both men are very interesting characters and I liked listening to your arguments ❤️
Well put. Tywin wrote the doom of Lannister when he abused Tyrion and had Tysha gang raped.
I agree with your views on Maegor but I think Tywin calcified a bit too hard as he aged losing the adaptability of his youth and was a bit blind to his family despite his general awareness of human psychology and strategy.
I think there is a bitter tragedy and irony in Tywin's life that affects how he treats his family, specifically if Tyrion is a Targaryen (there is evidence for this that The Order of the Green Hand preseneted in one of the Tywin - The Machiavelli of Westeros videos, but I forget which one it was). Out of all of his "children", Tyrion is the most like Tywin as they share many of the same characteristics, virtues and vices. Although Tyrion tends to make his vices publicly known, Tywin keeps them hidden as best as he can. Perhaps that stengthens Tywin's resentment towards Tyrion.
I think Tywin Lannister of the great Casterly Rock, a man of callus who is driven to strengthen his family's dynasty, sees an unwanted reflection of himself that the world can also see in the frivolous and stunted Targaryen that he is forced to give his family name to as means of protecting the honour of his beloved wife, a wife who was taken from him by giving birth to that very Targaryen bastard nonetheless. It is no surprise that he was blinded when it came to his family, Tywin is human after all.
Amenon1994 Tyrion was a master manipulator(owned small council) and a decent strategist(a bit risky but good plan to destroy ships with wildfire or to invoke fear to every traitor by letting Joffrey decide his fate) but he was a bad ruler and invoked hate towards his family name.He brought savages that in the books is implied they raped and sacked Kings Landing.People starved because of his incompetence to solve problems like finding food or make the city safe, a fact that started a rebelion.
When Tywin arrived he instantly found a way to bring food to citizens.That means whatever bargain had with Mace Tyrell that involved bringing food to the table of citizens except a military alliance.I don't think Tywin was a fool or blind against Tyrion at all.I think he gave him a task that was difficult but best suited for his talents and that was to keep Joffrey and Cersei under control (and Tyrion was a success).Also, I don't think Tywin and Tyrion have the same keen mind.
Always love learning about the man, the myth, the legend, Tywin Lannister
he's obviously one of our favorite characters
Aenys was so desperate for maegor to come back that he believed making a barren woman fertile would work
HOW IN THE HELL COULD TYWIN BE AN "UNSUNG HERO"?!?!?
*watches video*
*Dons Team Tywin shirt*
You two are a blessing when my insomnia is at it's worst. I can't tell you how many greenhand marathons I have had. I adore and have a huge amount of respect for the amount of effort you put into your work. Your voices are perfect for these videos as well. Long live The Order of the Greenhand.
Greetings Lord and Lady Greenhand,
Speaking of Maegor, I've been thinking: well, the guy killed his second wife and almost her entire family only because she gave birth to a difformed child, that's an act that surely defined someone as cruel, no? Unless, the story we are told is a lie. Could it be in fact that Maegor guessed the faith wanted to harm Alys and her family and decided to smuggle them away to Essos and then pretended he had killed them?
I'd really like to read your thougts on the matter.
Another son of Machiavelli. Tywin has a song about him wiping out a house so I don't know if he is unsung, but it is definitely not about a hero.. ^^ Maegor is a beast.
Love the video.
It's not easy being Green Hand...
I believe that they thrived in crisis management, but floundered in peace. With Aerys II Tywin's scheming to create more power for his house created conflict and turmoil within the realm that aided in his house's downfall, and his mission of consolidating power completely obliterated his children's growth beyond pleasing him. Maegor seems to be similar to Randyll Tarly as well in that he is a soldier to the bone and willing to do whatever it took to keep his family surviving (and it echos in Kevan's thoughts of Tarly being a good Hand only for peace), but could not put himself aside for the betterment of his family when the faith was on it's last breath. He could not sue for peace because he did not understand how. That was a fabulous comparison, however, as I am just speaking on what contributed to their downfalls.
The funny thing is the Clash of Kings war was in part a war he [Tywinn] invaded due to good ole Catelyn imprisonment of Tyrion....! Amazing
Lets give a big Green Hand...
If you compare the burning The Sept of Remembrance with The Rains of Castamere and it looks like the water/fire theme of the Rhoynar vs Valyrians. Think about it, The Valyrians fought with fire and the group of people who were defeated by the Valyrians fought with water. Idk if im looking too deep into it but I thought it was worth mentioning.
You make a very good point. There are plenty of historical figures who have been vilified for actions that they probably had no choice about, such as Oda Nobunaga. Martin bases ASOIAF on history, so why would it be any different?
You could add Stannis to this list.
agreed
I disagree, stannis has not committed the atrocities Tywin has.
How is stannis a hero? That guy follows the law to an extend that is just crazy. If he had not been that focused on following laws, westerosi would now be peacefully ruled by renly!
(Yes, I am a huge fan of renly:D)
Isenskjold fuck renly. Renly is such a piece of shit...
@@birdyperch he killed his brother, if that isn't a moral atrocity I don't know what is.
ever since i learned of the multiple spinoff projects. a Tywin Lannister spinoff has always been on top of my list of things that could be interresting. too bad Charles Dance can't magicly de age... xD also i am a bit dissapointed by their choice for the first one to be about the long night.. i mean the current tv series has already been all about the war with the others and the prevention of humanities extiction.
Oh, shit. It could be called 'Hear Us Roar'! 😂
Wow! You made Maegor sounded like a good guy with your explanation, I am truly convinced now👍.
Thanks for the video 😊
Just what the doctor prescribed! Thank you guys, have a great week!
I hope you both realize that you may have to expand/revise the Maegor section after a certain book comes out.
we're hoping we'll have a lot to add to our analysis of Maegor...I think we're going to go in order and break down all the Targ Kings with all the new information we get from Fire and Blood
Thanks for the upload, This just made my night. Its hard for me to admit but i was actually mad and have been (internally) throwing shade at your channel. i would never had guessed that a cancelled Livestream would have triggered such strong emotions in me. New content seems to have brought me back to my senses though. I no longer feel the resentment towards you and your channel that i had felt just an hour ago.
Maegor always was one of my favourite Targaryens due to the way we knew little about him, yet how influential and stern he was.
It's amazing how you guys manage to not only make a great video every time that shows how much effort was put in it but it captivates me every time. Man! Ever thought of writing some books of your own? Cause I'd love reading that. If not at least a 10 hours long video. Wish you the best guys. Wish I could donate and help a lil but... I hope I will soon enough. Best of luck.
What i'm looking most forward to in Fire & Blood is the Maegor section and since i work across from a book store (and ordered a copy) i can likely spend my lunch break reading.
Kick ass video!!! These two give you the true meaning of family ....and Maegor and Twin are pretty cool too. ;)
Awesome and another great vid! Especially on morality and ACTUALLY examining it the world of ASOIAF. Easy to critique from a bubble looking far away.
Good to see another well done video. You certainly take the time to make quality.
Great videos guys... I always rejoice when I get that Green Hand notification. Salute to you guys
I endorse Maegor's views on separation of church and state. 🔥👍
as do we
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand technically he was fighting a cult not a church. Also what do you guys think of the theory of Order 66 happening to the dragonlords
@@wolfsbanealphas617 what's the difference?
@@johngrimes5852 one is bigger than the other and is accepted as a public form of worship. I'm probably wrong m
but that's been my understanding at least
Woke up at 1am to see a green hand notification. Result!
Thank you for this nice video. Grey characters are my favorites as well, as I can't stand shallow heroes, nor people that are evil just because. Grey characters are often able to do things we wouldn't dare, but also get forced into some moral dilemmas, where we can explore our own morality. I also like when their decisions have consequences for better or worse, leaving us with the what if...
Just saw the clip from the podcast you did with Red team review and just wanted to say your “nontypical” theories were the main reason I subbed. I might not always agree but from the level of time and the evidence you give I can’t ever ridicule you . You guys keep up the good work
Thank you
I always assumed Maegor was just some evil character because of his nickname but this video reiterated why context matters
Check out our Sons of the Dragon video too
Kudos! on another excellent and thought-provoking video!
This was amazing! Medical bills prevent me from $ donation right now. You brighten up my days! Thanks, love QOT.🌹
Excellent. Thank OOTGH and Everett
Rank all 17 Targaryen kings. Here I'll go first:
1.Jaehaerys I (conciliator)
2.Aegon I (conqueror)
3.Viserys II
4.Daeron II (thegood)
5.Aegon V (egg)
6.Maegor I
7.Maekar I
8.Aerys I
9.Jaehaerys II
10.Viserys I
11..Daeron I (youngdragon)
12.Baelor
13.Aegon III
14.Aenys
15.Aegon II
16.Aerys II
17.Aegon IV
Your content has always been a great gemstone in the hailstorm of mediocre content and policies on this site. So thank you.
I especially loved the recap at the end!!
Thanks Everte. Thanks again for sponsoring this video and choosing a great topic
Now to Maegor.
> Maegor didn't have a choice but to kill a few hundred builders because they belonged to the Faith and could reveal the secrets of his holdfast.
Maegor had a choice to bring some other builders who were unconnected to the Faith. Like, from Essos. At least he could have sent them away somewhere far away from King's Landing or Oldtown.
I’m going to name my first son Tywin I only hope you gets his personality minus the heating me part
if one of the first things he does is bite his grandfather, watch out
Excellent video like always.
Great philosophical video. I love and respect Maegor and Tywin. Keep it up
Alaric reminds me of ned. Hard to his people as that is needed to keep lords in line in a harsh land and make sure the laws are followed. And in private will boasr about his kids being truly proud of them and loving them. Ned is the same. His kids saw both the warm father and harden leader thry needed to see to have empathy and respect. Glad jon got raised ny him instead of cat who made sure he knew he was unwanted. I feel she projected much as she is a southerner and same as jorahs wife. Didn't like the cold north much and left as sson as she could. Even sansa is this way. Wanted to keep a singer whej he wanted to leave. Weird how many ignored the bad. Thats not what makes a character good. Lots of girls i comment to always praise cat as a super women. Guess its different for who reads the books and studies the characters
Tywin Lannister is the Real Godfather
I wonder how different Maegor’s reign might’ve been if he’d paid the Faceless Men to kill the workers on the Red Keep...
any man who passes the sentence must swing the sword
Tywin should have been King. Tyrion should of been his Hand. Kevin should have been Master of Coin and Master of Ships. Tada the realm would of prospered.
that would have been interesting
Doesn't this contradict the Aagon conquest about a good leader being someone who helps their people?
I’d be very interested to hear why you think that
He is helping his people war leads to chaos and makes the relam become weak
Great Video loved it always excellent research and fun facts..🤔😁👍👍
After reading F&B I was shocked at how cruel Maeghar (sp?) was. Seems like GRRM modeled him after a Nero or Caligula type character, or perhaps Dracula (not the vampire but the man)
What I like to imagine is what Tywin would have done, (had he lived long enough to still be in charge) when Jon and Danny came with proof of the Dead. Now Tywin is in my opinion t. MASTER of his emotions. He’s NOT mad. I think he’d instantly see the unparalleled threat the Night King was and called an instant end to all fighting on his end. And joined whole heartedly with Jon and Danny provided that House Lannister be spare destruction
Honestly, if it came down to it, I would order the same thing Maegor did to the builders, much as I would have hated myself for it. I would have at least found (or tried to find) a relatively painless method, but honestly? A sword to the neck would have been far kinder than whatever the zealots would have done to them. I at least hope Maegor saw that the families of the builders, if they had them, were taken care of.
Great video!
I would have had the builder's tongs out, then send them to the wall via ships, thus increasing the protection of the kingdom and denying the faith the ability to question them. and they don't die. and as builders would be much appreciated by the watch and thus the north.
Good idea but I am amsuing at least one of them knew how to write
I hand does his job thanklessly. As Viserys ii, Orys, Bloodraven and Barth had.
I wish I had the bux to buy lots of merchandise to support the channel, but Social Security only goes so far; but whatever I *can* do I'll be happy to because ya'all rock AND my mind loves the deep analysis and criticism you two provide :-) Keep up the amazing work, it is appreciated!
Comments like this are all the support we need
Green Hand !!!
It wasn't until these videos did I come to appreciate Meagor. And yeah , him and Tywin are rather similar
Tywin broke guest right and Maegor slaughtered hundreds of innocents
Which is why GRRM made them villains.
Prasie god! just what I needed
My body is ready
Sounds like Maegor rolled a 20 on a constitution roll after the trial of seven. Since the misters weren't helping him heal.
More great stuff guys
How about this for a theory video What lies west of Westeros? I think this could be interesting
I dont think most people would do these things, but then they would die and their family would suffer. They had to do the hard things that 99% of people couldnt have brought themselves to do, that's why they're great and evil men
Excellent video, thank you.
At Mel's urging he burned a bunch of people on the beaches of Dragon Stone, and in the show burning Shareen which it maybe a similar end for her in the books. The similarities of these men are lack of humour or very dry humour, very strict, sense of duty, martial abilities, and the expectation that he should be the one who rule.
More or less agree, but Tywin Lannister arranging of the Red Wedding will turn Rob Stark into not only a martyr but a legend in the North. Think about it, "He never lost a battle," that's what's said about Rob Stark. From the perspective of the Northmen, this only proves that Southron people are treacherous which is disastrous for House Lannister in the long run, because the Northmen will not be as likely to want to be a part of the Seven Kingdoms which had killed their hero, not fair and square, but treacherously. The Red Wedding won the War of the 5 Kings, but it had planted the seeds of many rebellions.
So huge fan of Tywin...And we can also add some overrated heroes like Tyrion.Tywin offered him Winterfell,a beautiful woman named Sansa Stark and he didn't asked anything except to solidify the marriage(>10 mins) and he was like:"Nah pap.I prefer whores of the same age".
I got pissed.I'm going to review Catlin Tully's videos... :)
ua-cam.com/video/VgaNXPOD9wY/v-deo.html
I mean Maegor could just declare himself Regent, Hand and Protector of the Realm instead of Stealing his nephew's throne, killing him and taking his sister-wife (aka Maegor's niece). That would still allow him to do the things necessary to secure the reign of house Targaryen. Also Tywin not caring about his legacy is the worst lie I ever heard. Legacy of House Lannister was literally everything to the man.
You also have to consider how evil the Faith of the Seven must be for allowing the Andal kings of Westeros to fight each other. Six out of seven kings in Westeros were Faith of the Seven adherents, and yet the High Septon, the one guy who had his own private army of Faith Militant AND had spiritual lordship over the Andal kings did NOTHING to stop their infighting? At least the Popes in the real world had difficulties asserting their power over the kings of Europe, and their private armies never amounted to anything as big as the Faith Militant. At most, they had a city guard in the Vatican, some mercenary troops, and the knightly orders, none of which were as big as a royal army from any of the Christian kingdoms.
Yet the High Septon, thanks to the Faith Militant, had an army that was large enough to threaten even the dragon-riding Targaryens, and yet he didn't use this army to put an end to the infighting of the Andal kings or unite Southern Westeros. Consider that for a moment. He'd rather let petty kings fight each other and get members of the faith killed so long as the kings followed him, instead of having his private army knock down or pacify the kings one by one and unite the southern half of Westeros under one faith and crown. How evil and incompetent are they to let that go on under their watch? At least the Starks forcibly unified the North against outside threats like the Ironborn and the White Walkers.............
Your comment _a fantasy setting with different morals_ reminds me of a story I've heard about someone trying to play D&D but offending some SJWs, who were terribly upset, that there was no gender equality, equal rights, democracy and rights for homosexuals... The game master allowed them to change all that but then the world gets destroyed, because they were sidetracked for too long without spending a single thought on the lingering doom at the beginning of their story...
Typing Lannister used treachery and dishonor to raise his house.
Stannis said that in the show too "a man cannot wipe out all his bad deeds with good ones just as all ones good deeds cannot be wiped out by the bad" not verbatim lol
excellent video! thank you.💗
BTW do you think Gael the Winter Child is bastard of Alaric Stark? And that was the reason of second rift between Jaehaerys and Alysanne? Since we known the castle Alysanne stayed is crowned and crowning is a term used in childbirth. Being called Winter Child her story is also similar to Stark Maiden and Bael? Is it possible Gael's child from the singer is Daemon Targaryen? Since he is said to carv 13 to a weirwood (?) tree and Gael was Alysanne's thirteenth child? BTW I think Daemon is an asshole and I can't believe he is George's favorite :(
“What would you do in Jaime’s situation?” Well I can say with complete certainty that I would not be fucking my MARRIED SISTER, sorry George but Jaime was already in the wrong even before he pushed Bran out the window making that a very shit Moral Argument.
Did maegor pay the wages to the family of the builders he killed?
it doesn't say
He probably did but the grey rats wrote nothing about it just to demonize him
And here I was bored. And this shows up. 👏👏👏
I mean, who could think that ice demons that ride giant spiders and raise undead armies could be evil?
To hell with Alaric Cregan is by far the best Stark to exist under Targaryen rule
Cregan was the best hand of all time Barth and Tywin got nothin old son
@@warrior316 you forget that Barth set the ground work that enabled later hands to even allow the realm to prosper. So shut up. there would be no Tywin or Cregan or literally any good hand had Barth not done his part.
@Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix what did I say wrong? I love Viserys II he was great Hand and King but most if not all the good he did was completely overshadowed by the fact that his son was absolute shit
Hey orderofthegreenhand what do you guys think about the young dragon I feel like his life was really tragic all he wanted to do was show that house targarian was strong with or without dragons yet he was killed at a peace agreement. Also how come no one ever brings up the fact the dornish killed him under false yet flag of peace yet people talk about how he lost to dorne into account how he lost to dorne. I mena dorne did the same thing as tywin yet no noeshits on them for it
there is very little known of him, but he seems like he was quite the young man...very Alexander the Great-like, or at least seemed like he had that potential
I guess that's how the cookie crumbles some of the best human beings with the worst kings and some of the worst human beings were the best Kings apparently there can be no you can't be a good king and a decent human being in a single breath apparently.
The two aren’t necessarily related
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand but you can be both, it just requires the decent doesn't get in the way, either due to the opponents and the options available to the king [and his ability to think of them] (desperate times call for desperate measures and all)
Jaeherys is a great king and a good man as far as we know.
@@theinvisiblewoman6783 and I'm guessing you didn't read Fire and Blood because it shows that he was clearly sexist
@@madambutterfly1997
In westeros that isn't evil, it's normal... wich says a lot about their society.
Would you guys do a video on the "Tansy" theory? That it's either Lysa being forced to drink the potion to abort her baby or that it's the "Tansy" Arya meets later on? Just recently discovered this theory myself.
we're about 99.9999% sure the Tansy Hoster Tully referred to when he was dying was the tea he made Lysa drink
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I'm rereading the books and came across this tonight. I read that some believe it's something to do with the girl Arya meets. But I, like you, always assumed it was talking and Lysa's abortion. So this other take on it was a bit left field for sure!
But Tywin is not unsung tho, there is a song made in his name?
#teamMaegor
Hasan Wilson but he’s dead
The quotes you added about George's view on Heros and grey characters in the beginning are exactly why I still stick to Arthur Dayne being the one who ran off with Lyanna, not Rhaegar. Rhaegar played his role as best friend at Harrenhall and later on, and it led to consequences.
There are only 2 characters in the whole series that George presents as pure good: Ned Stark and Arthur Dayne. All honorable, 100% noble. And I do not buy this! We are led to believe this, that is why we as fans love Arthur Dayne because he was a real archtype hero. But listen to Maester Aemons speech to Jon!!! Love is the death of duty. There are consequences to actions, even if they were ment out of love. Arthur Dayne loved. That was his weakness, just as GreyWorm said. And this weakness led to war, the death of his best friend, even to Lyannas death. A hero who had flaws, too. That is why I see George connecting Ned and Arthur in his chapters.
Of course the Rogue Prince is one of the greatest targaryens
Certainly one of the most entertaining Targaryens
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand is there a book about him?
The Rogue Prince. It’s a short story George released years ago
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Hey orderofthegreenhand in the roguwe prince's book are their any signs of the greyrats alternating things or essos interference?
3:52 wait, where is the soundtrack?
Did you guys read george recent interview? It seems hes not done writing Winds of winter yet :(
One person was NEVER a Hero...
One of the.most important scenes to show tywin is great is many small fork are scared rhat without tywin. Who would protect them. Same as with aegon being loved by the small fork. Thats who you want to win over. Which makes me like edmure for trying to help thr small folk while cats uncle thr black fish burned the crops. Thata not who you should help or piss off. Thats why i liked the brotherhood with out banners before cat as it was meant to hlep the small folk for roberts people as its still his throne and land.
Why everybody celebrate Tywin but hate King Maegar, Tywin killed more people than Megar, Tywin erased two Noble Houses & killed all those people at the Red Wedding
Tywin is almost textbook "lawful evil".
care to explain? the way I see it, Tywin was not a particularly good person, but he was a great ruler
Tywin follows the law, but he does so like a crooked lawyer. Red wedding and the slaying of Rhaegars children are the best examples. He gave the order/ochestrated the acts for those events to carry out, but he avoids accountability by leaving the blame on someone else. During the sack of kings landing Tywin allowed wholesale slaughter, rape, and theft to be carried out by his men. Killing his own vassels the reins and the tarbeks was considered lawful but incredibly harsh. Compare that to the starks who let the boltons live after being defeated or stannis sparing about 99% of the wildling "army". Tywin seems to care only for the reputation for his house. He hates tyrion, but he can't lawfully disown him and as soon as there is a chance to kill tyrion it looks like tywin is going to allow it. Tywin also has a line (I can't remember exactly what) that alludes to him plotting to "remove" joffery from the throne in place of tommen. Not necessarily evil but I can think of only one way to remove a king. In short, if you carry out an evil act, but you have legal justifications, then the act is lawful evil. If all the main talking points in your life are lawful evil, then you is lawful evil my dude. Also he plotted Avery's downfall for sure it's just that those plans didn't go well. Had Rhaegar won the trident, there still might have been a sack at kings landing...
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I forgot to say that being a good "ruler" in no way qualifies a ruler as being a good person. Case, Those Bolton.
I've seen Maegor put on the Crazy Targaryen list. But after reading his chapter in F&B i think he was cruel and sadistic but his actions seemed to have a purpose. Alys (poor Alys) was treated horribly by Maegor but I put that on the bitch Tyanna. He didn't just choose to torture her to death. But though you argue he tried to protect his family, but what purpose did he have for killing Viserys the way he did.
> Jaime didn't have a choice but to throw Bran out of the window, and most people would do the same to save their family.
But Jaime did have a choice. He might have chosen a safer place to make out with Cersei, like a closet or a cellar. He might have drawn the curtains (in the book it happens in a regular bedroom with curtains and all). He might have withdrawn from having sex with her at all, as the castle was unknown for them and teeming with random people. Your logical mistake is taking the moment of sex while you should be taking a few moments earlier. Martin probably wanted to get more hype around his books by offering his audience to imagine themselves in Jaime's place. In reality, Martin is the first one to know that the Lannister siblings were the most entitled brats considering themselves as gods, which is not true for most people among Martin's audience. Most people wouldn't have found themselves in Jaime and Cersei's position in the first place. Prioritising sexual pleasure over life of your children is not something common, although it happens, only most of these perverts don't have the possibility to kill people who saw them. Oberyn remembers that Cersei was ready to maim Tyrion's wet nurse for asking her not to bother baby Tyrion. It's implied that Cersei had many people maimed or killed just because they annoyed her. Of course she and Jaime had had some people killed over seeing them before. Which makes their attack on Bran even more cruel. He can't be their first victim. Tywin's and Maegor's situations are different as they are related to the state affairs. You are wrong to put them on the same level of necessity.
This is a question I want anyone to answer please Why did House Targayen let house Baratheon live after they conquered Westerous I mean they essentially were the heirs if the dragon ever died out why keep such a threat alive especially after years of infighting and let;s not forget the Blackfyre wars
they were their staunchest supporters