@@lukev483 might sound awful but does that mean its not true? To take an example from history, lets say slavery in America, okay, you can hear that. You can believe that slavery is awful, you can believe white people are the reason slavery is evil, and the ancestry of slave-owners and their children and all sorts of other stuff. However it doesn't negate the fact that history has shown black Africans sold Africans into slavery. White slavery on the irish history, the history of slavery is not only frought with skewed and varying sides and degrees of relevant information. However if you take the stance that The historical significance of slavery ending in America allegedly in 1865. When the ratification of the United States law, the emancipation proclamation. My point is that you can take the facts that you don't like, and that seems to lead you to feel some type of way, but knowing of the miracles, the doctrine, the ideas of the church, and the actions of the churches teachings... bruv, so it goes. I am not gonna argue with you, and it is your belief. You have a lovely day, week, year. Take care.
@@lukev483 I will agree with you on the point of your first sentence in your comment. But only up to the point you made. Either its true, or it isn't. Beyond the facts, its experience which can be more emotionally lead, so.. bless. ✌
The gospel as Jesus Christ established it in the first century AD as worshipped by early Christian’s before all the reformations neutered Christianity… that’s the restored gospel. Joseph smith received revelation as to how that church was built and “restored” it.
Sorry, NOT the restored gospel. It's sad how HEAVILY DECEIVED and SEVERELY CONDITIONED the members are. Not surprising though. Considering the malevolent spirit that controls and operates within the LDS organization. And the DECEPTIVE nature of that spirit. The hierarchy of the organization know full well of what they are ACTUALLY worshiping.
I'm looking into Mormonism and videos like this help. I was raised evangelical and we often consider Mormonism as extremely foolish. You guys do a good job of combating that idea
As a Latter-day Saint who "looks into" other religions on youtube, I am here with you. I love Catholic and Jewish content, but I have a hard time getting into Protestant creators because I so often run into videos of them attacking my faith.
@@maxv2672LDS is a high demand religion. It’s very works based. There is nothing we can do to attain salvation. It’s what Jesus did on the cross for us. It’s by His blood that we are saved. Be careful.
@@melissamaertz Works-based... The Book of Mormon reads "It is by faith that we are saved, after all we can do," but that does NOT mean "once we have done all we can, we are saved by faith." We interpret it to mean "we are saved by faith *notwithstanding* all we can do." Faith and works are in balance to us: dead works will not save us if have have no faith, but neither will empty faith without any action. There are almost as many passages about the importance of works as there are about the importance of faith. "Faith without works is dead" (James 2), "Not everyone who saith unto me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father" (Matthew 7), "If a man love me he will keep my words, and my Father will love him" (John 14), "Unless a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven" (John 3).
I know I’m late on this. But David Whitmer also had his testimony of the Book of Mormon inscribed on his tombstone! So there would be no confusion. Ever! The very fact that most of the witnesses at some point either permanantly or temporarily left the church yet NEVER denied their testimonies of what they witnessed more powerful from a strictly evidentiary stance than if they had all remained faithful.
If they denied their testimonies what would they be telling the world about their character? In those days reputation mattered. Go along to get along...
I understand being upset by the continuous accusations from main stream Christianity. However, I don't believe the group at Ward did a very good job refuting any issues, even if the issues brought up were not developed to the fullest extent. For the most part the defense was standard apologetics and circular reasoning. I also understand that many other Christian apologists do the same thing defending their version of Christianity. My question, after viewing this program is what is the purpose of the LDS church? There is no indication in the Bible that Jesus would reach out to the Americas. Unlike the Bible, the Book of Mormon is not attested by historical data. Modern LDS members seem to want to espouse a soteriology very similar to mainline Christianity. As time goes on it appears that there is very little that distinguishes LDS members from other Christians. So, why would God need to reestablish a church that provides the same understanding of salvation?
Alright Prairie Christian Outreach… you seem sincere enough I’ll engage. Before I answer you, I want to know, however, if you are presented with evidence that what you say is incorrect or we provide solid answers for your questions, do you commit to changing your rhetoric about “non-verifiability” of Mormonism, and “historical data” and such? Because if you are, I will gladly engage to the fullest extent, if not, you can check us off your “outreach box” and move on to another channel. The ball is in your court… I’ll even make an episode just for this if you’re truly sincere in your questions.
@@WARDRADIO I'm not rooting for any team here. Being involved with prison ministry has allowed me to study will all different kinds of beliefs. Also, being a Seventh-day Adventist I have been on the receiving end of some evangelicals. You should also note that I included LDS members in the body of Christ. I dislike the "cult" term as it is not helpful, and the term has a wax nose. Regarding "rhetoric", if you can provide verifiable evidence that provides for an Iron Age culture from Israel in the Americas during the dates indicated by the BoM I would change my tone. However, this evidence must meet the scrutiny of modern secular scholarship. I'm more interested in my later questions. What is the purpose of the LDS church? What does if offer that other churches do not? Why would God even need to establish another "true" church? I ask these questions with honest seeking curiosity. I have always been a seeker of truth. However, I try as much as possible to remove any preconceptions that interfere with my searching. Blessings,
@@PrairieChristianOutreachthe priesthood authority was taken from the earth due to apostasy. It needed to be restored to restore the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant.
A pre-Colombian alloy which was called “Tumbaga” by the Spanish and it was usually made with gold, copper and silver which just so happens to be the same three ores quoted by Nephi in the Book of Mormon. The witnesses estimated the plates weighed between 40-60 lbs. Plates made of tumbaga would weigh approximately 53-58 lbs and would have been approximately 90% copper, 8% gold, and 2% silver.
"The heart deceives [...] And the witness of the Resurrection-not internal feelings, but rather they saw Him alive with their own eyes." -Mike "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed." -Jesus
Priceless.............Mormons are a hive mind. Their faith is built on others faith rather than Christ...You hear I know this church is true constantly, Basically word vomit...
As one of the hated Protestant evangelicals, I wanted to watch this video because I’ve watched Pastor Wingers videos on Mormonism and I thought it would be fair and helpful to understand how Mormons think about these issues. I really appreciate hearing what the guy in the blue shirt and the fellow sitting next to him had to say, they addressed things and I felt like it was helping me understand the ideas. And there are a lot of places where I would even agree with the blue shirt guy and his friend on some particular points. But as whole, this video was extremely off putting. I had to wade through irrelevant personal attacks about Mike’s character & body (??! The gym comment ??!!) I had to tap out, because I felt like I couldn’t get many questions answered because I had to sit through these super long tangents just calling Mike dumb, paid off, making comments about his looks, etc etc - why would he come on your show when you’re behavior is clearing intending to just bully the guy? If you’re so tired of engaging with these arguments, to the point that these videos showcase behavior that isn’t exactly upright - you probably shouldn’t engage with them… Nevertheless, I hope the two other guys guys start thier own thing :/ Enjoyed hearing them talk
I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I agree with your comment. While I share in the frustration that this group feels when misinformation is spread, that frustration never justifies personal attacks or insults. My hope is that future videos will focus on facts (which you can still be passionate about).
I was gna comment but you said everything I wanted to say. Thank you! One thing ive learned studying apologetics is to always test your beliefs/views. Putting your convictions to the test is something many people struggle with. Side note... I think the "Bible expedition convo with mormon" video is very informative. God bless
My thought as a black person in the lds church, I joined when I was 17 years old but was an active non member sense I was 12 years old I am now 37 years. Let's say Joseph Smith was racist, just a thought not saying that he was. Let's say that he was, has a black person in the church, I have received the same blessings as any other members of the church, the doctrines are the same for every one and we are all trying to stay and partake in the grace and mercy of God. The church's teachings, the Bible and the book of Mormon has and is blessing all of our lives.
this is a very mature take. You're right. And -- while it's irrelevant to the blessings you are receiving -- its worth noting that Joseph Smith was quite the opposite of racist. He was preaching to enslaved blacks in the south, which is what so incensed the southern slavers. Had Joseph been racist, he wouldn't have been killed! They chased us out, murdered my forefathers and mothers, to defend their slave economy (among other things). So ... yea, the first presidential candidate to be an abolitionist = definitely not a racist. The Book of Mormon is the most unifying and anti-racist book in the world. Especially when you consider that the people of Jared -- the most righteous people at the Tower of Babel -- were black! Native Americans, blacks, polynesians, EVERY ONE are God's children. Isn't is marvelous!
@@WARDRADIO yes you are correct! My point was if he was it doesn't make a difference to me because it is the church of Jesus Christ, But we know that he wasn't.
There’s more evidence Brigham Young was racist which you conveniently skipped over and left out the almost 100 years out of the 200 years of discrimination against people of Africa descent which the church went along with.
I appreciate what you guys are doing, just a couple things, the “pyramid” temples in Mesoamerica have stairs, that is in direct violation of the law of Moses, “Exodus 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.” which the Nephites were well aware of. The carbon dating is also far outside of BoM timelines, they were built around 900AD which is almost 500 years after the total destruction of the Nephites. The glyphs system of writing is also recognized to be more closely related to Hindu than Egyptian and if you ask the native Americans themselves (meaning those tribes identified by Joseph Smith as the decedents of the Lamanites) if their ancestors crossed the land bridge from the west, they will tell you no, that their ancestors came from the rising sun (east) on boats. If you’re gonna conduct debunking guys, be a little bit more studied yourselves. Otherwise fun and great work.😉
It makes me laugh how we are as human beings. We'll believe in gold plates if we want to steal them. But we wont believe in them, if a book is written by them.
@lukev483 Oh dear, another bitter hater who knows nothing about the church and its teachings. Don't worry. Your prophet John D will put your mind at ease with some "Mormon stories" for bedtime.
@@gordianknot9595 lol assume, assume, assume. Why don’t your retire and “leave the church alone” then we can talk about retiring the slogan that YOU make true haha!
Does anyone here ever read the comments section from the original videos from Mike Winger and others talking about LDS? There are so many comments of people saying how they were raised Mormon but came to know the truth of Jesus and Christianity as a whole.
I have. It is good that they found Christ because that means they did not have Him in their lives and that their religion was just culture. The more these same people draw closer to Christ I would stake my life on them returning to His Church. You can not know Jesus Christ without seeing His work in other organization. God will tell a honest seeker of His Son the truth about everything.
I'm one of those people. Learning about true Christianity and leaving the Mormon church led me to truly understand the saving Grace of Jesus. So many lies are taught about Jesus in the LDS faith, such as him bleeding from every pore (which never happened), and that we are saved by the grace of Christ "after all we can do" (Read Alma)... So many lies... So many Mormons are led to wrongly believe that their works in the temple are what saves them. After all the church teaches you can't live with your family forever if you don't follow along with the Masonic rituals of the Mormon temple.
So if I show you in luke 22:44 that he did sweat blood. Does that make you a liar or the scriptures a liar. Also, that only appears in the gospel of Luke. If you had only the 3 other gospels and someone came to tell you that it happened, you wouldn’t have believed but the it happened. It really did. Your ignorance of the scriptures and your arrogance and pride in thinking you were smart led you away from the true gospel. Don’t blame anyone else. Study your scriptures my friend
It's always cute when someone who believes in talking snakes, talking donkeys, and baby-killing angels simultaneously makes fun of a religion that believes in golden plates and magical rocks.
Going after Mike Winger, didn’t expect this. I’ve left several comments on his videos to the effect of: “Mike you got a lot of things about Mormons wrong.” And to his credit he has sometimes responded “please detail the things you think I got wrong.” And I’ve written out long essay responses to all the particular points in question for him. The problem is, that’s where the communication ends. He doesn’t respond to the long form rebuttal, only the quick “this is wrong” comments. So that cycle repeats as Mike continues to say the same misconceptions. Granted this is in UA-cam comments and Mike is a busy guy. So perhaps this two hour video from a more prominent Latter-day Saint channel will get him to finally engage in-depth with some good faith discussions with people other than anti-Mormons.
@@lukehanson_ Not just us, but the many people that listen to him. I can just see his recycled arguments spread like a disease through these DMV women.
Guys, I’ve got a great book for you to read, by a James Adair, written in 1775. It’s called The History of the American Indians. This gentleman lived among the southern eastern Indians for 11 years. They have so many similarities to the Hebrews. It’s an awesome book. I hope you’ll give it a good read. I also think it would be a great thing for your show.
1775 .. thank you! With this information, other authors wrote fictional books about that, and then some uninformed people claim that the Book of Mormon is plaugerized from those. False, of course, if they would just read both side by side! ❤ it would make a good study for the show.
All this particular book claimed is the similarities of the American Indians , in both the north and the south, to the ancient Hebrew traditions. There’s so much more than that to the Book of Mormon, so so much more.
I am a direct decendant of two families who suffered abuse in their countries for their belief and crossed the plains on the willie/martin handcart company. The church is no stranger to suffering 35:00
Who was your decendant from the hand cart companies? We came over on the willie/Martin companies as well. Allice Brooke’s is my family line… we related man?!
I had to turn this video off as it makes me sad and angry when someone can’t get their point across without personally attacking someone. If you can’t articulate yourself without personally tearing someone down about their looks or “strength” I can’t respect you enough to listen to the points you are trying to make.
@@DrDoerk😂😂😂 That’s a great way to misrepresent what we believe. We believe that god will give us all that he has. Otherwise, why would even have a tiny portion of it with the priesthood?
I just love this show! So much fun watching and hearing different perspectives! It’s so refreshing to finally have podcasts that reps us!! Keep up the great work brothers!! 🤙🤙🤙🙏👏👏
I have actually worked for a guy who made a golden page out of gold to the specifications of the gold plates, And I got to write my name on them. It was easier than expected (although the metal tries to direct your hand) it just made me realize how easy it is to write on gold it was a fun experience.
@@WARDRADIO Well I worked at a coin mint that primarily worked with silver but sometimes gold, during my interview we got to talking about the church and what the artifacts of the past might have looked like, and he opened his safe and showed me a golden plate it was very thin and lighter than I expected. He gave me a metal pen type thing and said I could try writing. I barely pushed harder then I would have with paper and you could see the letters clearly. the only thing that affected writing was it trying to go along the path of least resistances which sometimes messed up the letters but it was pretty similar to writing on normal paper. and reading it was not difficult so long as you avoided glare from light. But the plate was like a note book page in size, which he said was about $10,000 worth of gold just for one plate. He also created a replica of the urum and thumim based on descriptions it was just made everything about the Book of Mormon feel so real and showed that it was very realistic when it came to the writing on plates of gold. It was a while ago so my memory of that moment has faded a little but the plate was pure gold and if I was to guess it weighed about 5 - 10 oz. Also it worked better to write with straight lines then to attempt a more flowing style of writing which kind gives a better picture of what the writing on the plates might have looked like. you could write in a cursive like way, but you are prone to more mistakes. I think the words on the plates where probably more straight and rigid in style just based on how much easier it is to write in that style. But I don't know if it mentions what the symbols looked like anywhere I have not really searched for something to conform my assumption, it is just a guess from the experience I had.
@@WARDRADIO Explain how the amount of content in the Book of Mormon could come from the plates if they were written in some kind of Egyptian hieroglyphics. If you were to actually translate the book of mormon into Egyptian hieroglyphics inscribed on metal plates, how massive must those plates actually be. Deal with this please
@@sukt00 Are you trying to say that each hieroglyphic you think were on the "gold plates" represented entire paragraphs or stories? If you are, why would Nephi (Joseph really) say they were written in "reformed Egyptian." At that point it is an entirely new language that has zero to do with Egyptian. Egyptian hieroglyphics only represent single words or syllables. Conveniently, Joseph didn't know this in 1830, because the knowledge of the Rosetta Stone hadn't made it to rural New York yet. Sounds a little fishy to me. "Why make a mountain out of a mole hill?" Because this is another example that no one considers as to how asinine the translation story of the BOM is. Just pointing it out to the world. Now you know at least and have to deal with a little more cognitive dissonance about how illogical this all is.
@@devinbateman243 but like... where did it come from then? Did this illiterate farm boy just make it up? I genuinely don't understand how that's possible
Christ giving the same speech verbatim isn’t even likely. The scribe writing down words that translate to the exact words when translated into English as the KJV Bible is insanely impossible.
I had an evangelical friend in Indiana who loved this guy and the Apologia crew among others. I rarely feel like the term "intellectually dishonest" is appropriately applied, but I remember watching some of Mike's videos and being very unimpressed by his incredible ignorance or intentional misdirection. One of the key issues I think for people like him is they never even consider for a moment that the LDS church and Joseph Smith's story could possibly be true, so they never take an honest look at it. They just write it off out of habit (and insecurity over the tenuousness of a lot of evangelical positions).
But Joseph smith is one person…he’s saying all of the Bible isn’t totally accurate. Where are his golden plates? The Bible has more evidence and authors.
There is a contradiction I hear and read many times among those who attack the Latter-day Saints. Critics will first say something similar to this. "Mormons are frequently taught this doctrine," But then, speaking of the same doctrine or teaching, the critic will often turn it around and say something like, "Very few Mormons know this doctrine." Here is a perfect example - Many critics say that Latter-day Saints are taught that "Joseph Smith did greater works than Jesus." This dates to a single, obscure quote from Joseph Smith which is often taken out of context in which Joseph Smith was discussing the growth of the early church compared to the struggles of early Christianity following the death of Jesus. No where in the quote that critics use does Joseph Smith say he was the Messiah or the Savior of the World, but this doesn't stop critics from overemphasizing this quote to make people think it says that very thing. Of course, when Latter-day Saints hear this quote and are unfamiliar with its origins, the critic will say to them, "That's because it is one of those hidden facts about the early Mormon history that the church is trying to hide." Huh? How can something which is presented as a common, well-known doctrine taught to many Latter-day Saints be something the Church is trying to hide?
Cardon, I am 100% in agreement about your opinion of the inspirational aspect of a lay ministry, not only because it keeps those who serve from serving mammon, but because it makes them capable leaders who serve in many capacities in their church life and in their community. My dad served in many bishoprics, and my father in law was a bishop, they are both converts, as are their wives. My mom has served in so many calling in primary and family history, and my mother in law has been RS president in at least one occasion. It is the strength of the church that God requires us to serve Him in ways that we require us to stretch and sacrifice on His behalf.
Thanks for this video! It was very helpful to understand someLDS beliefs from actual members :) I watched Mike Wingers whole video you pulled clips from. In my opinion, the most compelling argument he had was not addressed here. It was on the topic of Joseph Smiths incorrect interpretation of the Egyptian scrolls which he said was the Book of Abraham, which later turned out to be not true, and was Egyptian rituals for burial. Perhaps you have a video on this topic already so you didn’t address it here? I’d love to hear your response to that particular claim.
They won't because it would be admitting they believe the fantasies of a PROVEN liar. And there are no hoops to jump through or ways to convelute that fact. That's why, and it's sad.
You are EXACTLY the type of person they are talking about. This question has been addressed YEARS ago multiple times AD NAUSEAM. Had YOU done a single google search - JUST ONE - you would’ve come across the church’s website that explains the answer. By the way this was posted on the LDS church site since 1988. How about YOU stop posting the same trope and figure out how to stop bearing false witness against thy neighbor!
@courtneyshannon1503 this question has been addressed so many times it gets old, unfortunately. I cannot post urls in the comment section because it will get flagged and removed so if you want the answer you can google the phrase: Why doesn’t the translation of the Egyptian papyri found in 1967 match the text of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price? And add the church’s website url in your query. The lds church has answered this already. I hope you find the answer you’re looking for. Truth is out there but you have to be willing to accept it when you find it and not continue to claim it’s false. If all one wants to do is say that what they know is truth and nothing more is truth then how will God ever show you more truth? As Carson said in his videos this was the same mentality that the sadducees had during the time of Christ. They hardened their hearts and because they didn’t want to give truth a place in their heart to test it, they literally stared their savior in the eye and said to crucify him. Don’t make the same mistake. There is truth in the Book of Mormon. I so testify of it!
I've read about it. So i can grab an old german newspaper having no clue what it says ''translate it'' and write the best novel ever, all inspired, on my translation. then this german dude shows up who can read it and says, its completeley unrelated. To anything what i said it meant. only to say: No, well, it was in the rest of the paper, but my dog ate it. so its all true! How is that not exactly what happend based on the materials of the LDS?@@NOSPAM-pb4tu
Dude this podcast is it. No shade on other fellow saint podcasts, but they’re so hard to relate to. Dudes being knowledgeable respectful, funny and just dudes. Thank you!
I totally get the desire to build bridges and I’m so thankful for the approach Pastor Jeff takes. That said, while I usually I align with the peacekeepers… I’m with Cardon on this one. When lies and deception are so overt you can’t convince me it’s an error of ignorance or accident. It’s deliberate. It’s insidious. It’s maddening. Call ‘em out!
At the hour mark this is the response to why he focused on one false prophecy and not what came true “But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.” Deuteronomy 18:20-22 KJV Because if one prophecy does not come true, he is not sent from Him.
@@royalestel Nineveh repented so the city was not destroyed, that was not a false prophecy but a warning that if they did not change their ways they were going to be destroyed, but they chose repentance.
Which of his videos are y'all responding to? I'm most curious about your response to "Why Mormons and Christians Can't Understand Each Other" -- in particular, as someone from a mainline Christian church, I agree with his definitions of "Christian" terms and am curious if he's fairly representing LDS' understanding of the "Mormon" terms he discusses. I would find your video much more helpful if it included chapters or timestamps delineating which topics you're covering -- 2 hours, or 1 hour on 2x speed, is a large chunk of time to devote to a podcast that might never cover the material I'm looking for. If you have a recommendation for a response to "Why Mormons and Christians Can't Understand Each Other" from a "Mormon" perspective I'd greatly appreciate being pointed in the right direction.
I grew up in Southern California like Cardon. There are many evangelicals in the area, and their pastors were very similar. My dad was a branch president and was asked to join a group of community clergy. They were supposed to discuss ways their congregations could work together to help the whole community. Sounds like a good idea, right? My dad had to stop going because the evangelical pastors were so contentious and all they wanted to do was bible bash. They had such a condescending and contentious spirit. My dad said he realized something after that experience. From their behavior he was convinced the loathed Latter-day Saints, and if those pastors could have, they would have driven every latter/day saint out of the community. Just like our ancestors.
I grew up in Southern California, too. I know the group of evangelicals you are talking about. The Campus Life crew in high school passing out anti material to other students. SMH
You guy had me Rollin on this one! Especially the "fact based religion" bit. Very well said! It was so funny how he said "based on 3 witnesses fact based religion" as if we don't!
About the Hill Cumorah: I've always just interpreted it as two different hills with the same name. There's the hill Cumorah (the battlefield) and Cumorah where Moroni buried the plates.
Guys you misunderstand the curse of Cain. It’s not a racist policy. The scriptures clearly state the seed of Cain were cursed as to the priesthood. Brigham Young clarified that they would get the priesthood again at some future date. You need me on the show
I N E V E R get tired of these anti debunking. You guys are the B E S T 🎯💥🎯💥. I think you're probably the only ones who do this and it's such an important work
@@lukev483 You are correct!! You fulfill prophecy in the last days so for you all to go would nagate what the Bible or BOM says. In fact, it's supposed to get so bad that people will start dying or be driven from their homes and lands defending the truth whether it LDS, Catholic, evangelicals etc.... Once you have all successfully gotten rid of us, and you will be successful. The world will be ripe for destruction. Whether you believe in the days of Noah or not and that God destroyed the earth once and will do it again doesn't make it any less true. People back then also laughed and mocked him, even tried to ki!! him many times. I can only imagine how they felt when the rain didn't stop. Next time around, it'll be different. So I ask you... bring on wars!! Bigger and faster so we can get this over with 🔥🥳🔥🥳💥💥💥💥
@@lukev483 I love how MM videos trigger luke and kris so hard. It's almost an addiction-level type of "can leave the church, but can't leave the church alone" behavior
@@GwPoKo I know right 🤣. I don't get it because my sister left the church years ago to live a wild life but she will never criticise the church or even talk about it. I don't understand how people leave the spend the rest of their lives obsessing over it🤷♀️. At least Luke and Kris are helping helping spread the videos by their need for attention 👍🤣
@@lukev483 And what have you offered them in return? A lost soul? Yippee... What an amazing exchange 🙄. Korihor offered many wonderful promises, a blissful life, saved followers from themselves but gave nothing. In the end, he paid the price and you will too
@@StompMom5 Luke is a troll. He is about as brainwashed as they come. He doesn't doubt anything his prophets say like John Dehlin, RFM, Bill Reel, and others. He says he has left the church, and instead he has joined mormon fake stories. He holds the CES letter up as his title of liberty 🤣🤣🤣
I know he didn't give us the same grace, but I still feel a little bad for Mike Winger for the beating he took in this debunk. Mike Winger, this needs a response.
Same grace?? The other dudes accused him of lying and intentionally misrepresenting after only hearing 20 second clips for the sake of fake drama and entertainment. They showed zero grace and Mike will absolutely not respond. You were the only good guy, Luke. Bravo.
Luke, can you link to some of the new data you guys were referencing regarding horses? I can see one paper from Wade Miller in 2022, but it's not cited by anyone else and doesn't seem to have had an impact? There's a big study from march 2023 that uses, "An assemblage of historic archaeological horse remains, integrating genomic, isotopic, radiocarbon, and paleopathological evidence" that concludes, "Together, DNA, archaeozoological, and stable isotope data support the introduction of Spanish-sourced domestic horses into Indigenous societies across the plains before the first half of the 17th century CE." Are there other major papers I'm missing here?
Winger believes that Melchizedek of Genesis is Jesus. But hes got that one wrong. Jesus did not have multiple births. Or that contradicts the prophecy the prophets and the angels gave of his birth..... But He thinks as many evangelical Christians incorrectly believe that Jesus Christ is the only high priest of God of in existence and forget that there existed another high priest of God at the time of Jesus and his Apostles during his earthly Ministry called Annias who had healed Saul of his blindness with the power of God's Priesthood after the Melchizedek order of the Son of God.. Whom Paul had acknowledged as God's High Priest once he found out that he was God's high priest, for God has a priesthood order after the Son of God. But the Evangelical Christians incorrectly believe that the Son of God had no priesthood order. Many of them believe it was only just Jesus who held the high priesthood of God and nobody else. But that's not correct because Jesus ordained his apostles and the seventy to the Melchizedek Priesthood so they could do the same miracles that Jesus did.
Evangelical here that just finished listening to Russell M. Nelson's "Peacemakers Needed" talk for the third time. Very inspiring message from a very inspiring man. I have immense respect for Russell M. Nelson and always learn something listening to his talks. Hate to say it guys but you might want to go back and listen to that talk again. You totally missed his mark with this video. I believe Mike Winger is a man who is truly seeking the Lord. He may have been harsh in some of the comments he made but that doesn't make it OK for you to attack him personally the way you did. Don't you think having dialogue with him instead of bashing him would draw our two faiths closer together? As an evangelical, I believe there are things I can learn from your church and I have learned things about OUR Savior from your church and your teachers. You're telling him he needs to repent but after watching this video (which by the way I had a VERY hard time getting through because of your snarky attitudes), I think you need to look in the mirror and ponder once again the teachings of your modern day prophet. This video was the pot calling the kettle black and I don't think Russell M. Nelson would approve of your actions or attitudes. Believe it or not, there are evangelicals out there committed to bringing the walls down that have been built between our faiths. Videos like this aren't helping that. I'll be praying for all of you. Blessings.
As a member of the Church I totally agree. We believe in "the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege." We are also taught that repentance is an expression of love that offers peace. This video does not reflect those core beliefs.
The battle isn't against Mike. The battle is in the viewers. Young people (who are far more accustomed to short, sharp internet sparring) are watching Mike, and they need to know that he's deeply mistaken and being ridiculous. We aren't going to get mike a testimony, but we're gonna blunt his spear as he attacks the viewers, the 3rd parties, the innocent onlookers. They need to know that lies are lies and liars need Repenting. On the other hand, in our personal ministry, we'd love to chill with Mike.
Cardon i am with you! Im 69 yrs old. Starting in my elementary yrs i waa cinstantky attacked for being a mormon and i habdled it with love even though i was si frustrated, my feelings woukd get hurt. By the time i reached 7th grade i was sick of being bashed and bullied. In 7th grade i was jumped by 4 girls at school because i was a mormon, a freak! When my dad learned if thus he told me i am respinsible for defendung myself and my beliefs. These same 4 girls came after me again and though members may disagree, when this was about to happen to me again, somehow i fought back these 4 girls by myself and as they layed on thr ground looking shocked i told them until you read the book of mormon, until you investigate my church, i for warn you never attempt to touch me again. This ended it and these 4 girls never bothered me agaun, instead wanted to be friends. Because of all this, another friend of mine at school whi was cuban was baptized and her entire famiky be ame members of the church. Im nit at all ind6ating fighting. This was just my experience and as terrufying as this was for me my friend and her entire family joined the church. So i agree with you. The lying, the many times intentional attacks on us as members is wring and should be debunked. We should stand up against these things.
(I tried posting this comment before, but it may have been caught in the spam filters. The comment used to have links to the videos mentioned which I've now removed.) I noticed Luke mentioned Trent Horn, which I find funny because Trent recently published a video "3 Reasons I'm Not Mormon". He brings up many points, but they're more from a theological and insightful point of view compared to Pastor Mike's approach, although he does bring up the translation argument with the Book of Abraham. I'd love to see you guys discuss this video too. In addition, a channel known as Ready to Harvest, a channel dedicated to discussing different denominations, made a video "Are Mormons, Muslims, and Catholics Christian?". While the title of the video does come off as loaded, I think that the content of the video doesn't come off like that at all and it could spark a good discussion. Keep up the good work!
@@johnrowley310 what do you need an explanation of? Only a few say he used a hat. He was not allowed to show the urim and Thummim, so, some who have researched it believe Joseph may have used the stone in the hat to appease the curious with a vague idea on how he did translation. Joseph said he used the Urim and Thummim. Others did also.
27:00 2 problems: (1) steel is not mentioned during the last battle of the Nephites. The last time steel among the Nephites is mentioned in the Book of Mormon is the book of Jarom (399-361 BC) After that, there's never a single mention of steel work, artifacts, tools, or weapons. (2) The presentist argument against modern carbon steel in the Book of Mormon is stupid and based entirely on ignorance of the history of the English language. In 1820 when the Book of Mormon was published, there was no carbon steel industry in America. Modern western carbon steel as we know it today wasn't even discovered (in Europe) until 1813, and wasn't manufactured in America until the 1850's. The kind of "steel" Mike Winger and similar critics are thinking of didn't exist in the US in the early 1800's. During Joseph Smith's lifetime, the word "steel" meant "hard" (adj) "to harden or toughen up" (verb) or "hard metal alloy of any kind" (noun) That being said, the museum collections of Pre-columbian Native American metal alloy artifacts featured in many of America's prominent museums are published online in their entirety and can be easily searched for and looked at by anyone willing to do their due diligence to find them. These artifacts include iron alloy tools, copper alloy swords, scimitars, axes, headplates, breastplates, and other weapons & armaments described in the Book of Mormon, (including the cut-resistant thick, padded clothing described in detail during the campaign of Captain Moroni during the 1st century BC.) In the English language of 1820, describing all of these metal alloy artifacts as "steel" would have been correct, acceptable, and common. But once again, we don't even need to point that out, since the last mention of steel among the Nephites was over 800 years prior to the last battle of the Nephites! The willful ignorance in these arguments is painful.
@@gordianknot9595 you again? We did go over this and you were proved wrong on every single point, including the ones you’re trying to bring up now. And now you want to apply modern discoveries of old world carbon steel, using the modern usage of the word, to the English language of 1820? No, that’s not how linguistic chronology works.
@@gordianknot9595 Okay, I'll humor you. Let's work under the assumption that 2 Nephi 5:14 means that roughly in 588 BC, when Nephi says he made many swords "after the manner of the sword of Laban" that he meant specifically identical swords made with "fine steel", "exceedingly fine workmanship", and with golden hilts. Let's one up that and work under the assumption that by "fine steel", Nephi meant rare Damascus steel. Let's double down on that and stupidly assume that by merely possessing a Damascus steel blade, Nephi was somehow magically imbued with the ability to replicate the lost art of forging high tech steel infused with carbon nanotubes. Now, how many did he make to protect, in his own words, himself and his children? Let's one up that as well, and assume that Nephi made an awesome carbon steel sword for every adult Nephite male able to wield one. How many is that? Let's count: Nephi, Sam, Zoram, Jacob, Joseph, and let's assume that Nephi had at least 2 brother's in-law that stayed with the Nephites, since since Nephi mentions he had sisters. If every one of these 7 men had as many children as early as possible after marrying in the wilderness after their exodus from Jerusalem, by the time Nephi made these swords, they might have a couple of teenage sons each. So we're talking a small militia of about 21 people defending the Nephite tribe with 21 highly ornate space age steel swords. Let's just assume that all happened and there were in fact 21 identical copies of a this incredible sword among the Nephites approximately 2600 years ago. And you're asking me why you personally haven't been able to find one of those swords just lying around in modern America? Is that really where we're going with this line of questioning? Did I misunderstand you?
@ 1:21:06 Mike Winger literally has an ENTIRE series (playlist) called Jesus in the Old Testament that’s like 25 videos long where he goes through parts of the old testament that show and talk about Jesus… and also just for fun in Psalm 51 David writes and asks God not take his Holy Spirit from him. Do your research before you ask a ridiculous question. Also all of you guys made several comments and jabs about how he’s just in it for the paycheck or he can’t disagree with “traditional doctrine” cuz he’ll get kicked out or something of the sorts. Once again if you guys did your research beforehand you would know Mike Winger has not been a pastor on staff at a church for some years now and makes his full living off of UA-cam and does it full time.
@@cldrawings1224I am rewatching the video in order to give you the best possible answer. Currently, I’m listening and jotting down points which I will be happy to relay back to you in this thread once I’m done. It’ll take me a bit, but you should see it hopefully later today. 😁
@@TalonRoar No problems I'll wait, but how could you have posted earlier " happy you guys addressed this" but unable to even share 1 thing they addressed? Sincere question.
I think you all make a lot of valid points, and it does seem that Mike Winger is understudied in several key areas. I do have a few points I want to raise. Full disclosure I’m a Christian and not a Mormon. For one, the method Joseph Smith used to interpret the Book of Mormon was a seer stone. Which from what I’ve gathered is a American folk magic practice. We know from the Bible God is rather aggressively against all witchcraft, to the point that in ancient Israel it was punishable by death (Ex. 22:18). Doesn’t it seem odd that God would have a prophet use witchcraft to relay a message he wants to his people? A kingdom divided against itself can’t stand, God doesn’t need darkness to bring forth light. Also Christ spoke about his work being finished and the scriptures being fulfilled (John 19:30). Where in the New Testament does it speak of us needing another Gospel or an addition to the Gospel? In fact Paul declares if anyone brings you another Gospel, even an Angel, let him be accursed (Gal 1:8). If any Mormon would like to respond to these points I’m open to dialogue. I’m not here to cause controversy, just debate diplomatically in the scriptures. Be Blessed.
Look up the urim and thumim. It was used throughout the old testament. They were stones that gave interpretation. The object doesn't matter, but the source does. According to the book of revelation, those who endure will all be given a white stone.
Elder Neal A. Maxwell has written: “It is the author’s opinion that all the scriptures, including the Book of Mormon, will remain in the realm of faith. Science will not be able to prove or disprove holy writ. However, enough plausible evidence will come forth to prevent scoffers from having a field day, but not enough to remove the requirement of faith. Believers must be patient during such unfolding” (Plain and Precious Things (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1983), 4.).
@@krismurphy7711 the Holy Bible is milk meant for children, The Book of Mormon is meat meant for grown-ups, go away until you are more spiritually mature to get into the good stuff, Kris!
So according to you they have proven a global flood, the Tower Of Babel, Jonah surviving three days in the stomach of a great fish, Behemoth and Leviathan, the Garden Of Eden and so on and so forth. Or do these things still require FAITH to believe in? As for the New Testament, walking on water, commanding the weather, the dead coming back to life, some centuries after their deaths and so on and so forth. Again are these proven, or is FAITH required still? You act like the Bible has been so much more proven, just because they are able guess where cities are located, based on a description of the land being divided for the tribes of Israel. But for all this, they still haven't been able to prove the existence of King Solomon, even though he was so rich and famous the Queen of Sheba, which also there is no evidence for, came a great distance to see him herself. Prophecy 1 you 0.
Revelation 22:18-19 ESV I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Deuteronomy 4:2 ESV / You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.
@@mickski548 That is a lie. I NEVER LIE. Why don't I lie? Because it is too easy to be attacked and disproven when a person lies. Opens up The Character Issue. So liar...how did your lie work out for you?
It seems like after I got into the video at the end I started to comment comment at the same time you guys were. I did not receive a witness of the Book of Mormon for 15 years plus of its truthfulness. I knew it was true because of the research I did while reading it multiple times. And then after I learned it from analytical position then I was given that witness that I was not engaged in prayer asking about it just came in another interaction with testimonies from others.
Dear @alatterdaysaintonfire5643, Thy testimony is a poignant reminder that our journey to truth is deeply personal and often varied. Just as Alma spoke in the Book of Mormon, "And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good" (Alma 32:33). Some hearts find witness through fervent prayer, while others, like thine own, find it through diligent study and the testimonies of others. We rejoice in the unique ways our Heavenly Father speaks to each of His children. Thank thee for sharing thy journey of faith, for it strengthens and uplifts all who hear it. In the sacred name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
Good on you for sticking up for Jehovah Witnesses. I hate it when I see people bashing them. I may not agree with them but I respect them for their faith and devotion.
Dear @helgemrklid2229, Verily, thy kind words are most appreciated. We are humbled in our endeavor to stand for truth and righteousness amidst the mists of misconception. As the scriptures teach, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). Our sincere hope is to be instruments in the hands of the Lord, dispelling fear and bearing testimony of the restored gospel of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are heartened by thy support and prayers. In the sacred name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
@@apologetiquesinvestigations Verily, my dear @helgemrklid2229, I dost thank thee for thy kind words and commendation. 'Tis a noble task to bring forth truth and dispel fear and falsehoods. Now, as to the query raised by @apologetiquesinvestigations regarding the statement of the Prophet Joseph Smith, allow me to elucidate with brotherly love and scriptural references. Joseph Smith, the prophet and founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, did indeed speak these words. They reflect a unique doctrine of the Church, emphasizing the eternal progression and exaltation of humankind. This concept is rooted in the belief that God, our Heavenly Father, desires for us to become like Him, as His children. This doctrine can be likened unto the words found in Psalms 82:6, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Furthermore, in the Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, it is written in Moroni 7:48, "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." This concept is further expounded in the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, found in the Doctrine and Covenants, particularly in Section 132:20, which states, "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; thus shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them." These scriptures underscore the belief in the potential divine nature and destiny of mankind. The idea of becoming like God is a central tenet of the Restoration of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as restored through the prophet Joseph Smith. In brotherly love, I invite thee to ponder these truths and seek further understanding through prayer and study of the scriptures. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints offers a unique and profound perspective on the nature of God and our relationship with Him, a perspective that is rooted in the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
As a Mexican Mestizo aka a person with Native American and Spanish descent, the Book of Mormon actually elevates my culture and makes me feel glad that Jesus would visit other people groups including my ancestors.
Mike is too popular for these guys, plus it gives more of a platform for bad theology. This channel is making their own cult separate from the cult of mormonism
@TS-ee7jx Great point. I saw one of these dudes get absolutely owned on Apologea to the point that I felt bad for him. Mike doesn't need to pile on. It's pretty rough that these dudes somehow make mormons look even more silly.
Great show guys again. When you brought up the quote from Deuteronomy 13:1-3, I am reminded of this fact. God is setting the course in which Jesus Christ will eventually be crucified. If this law is not in place, then the people who condemn Jesus Christ because of this law would not have a law to condemn him by.
I am not a Mormons but having the main dude attack the character of Mike rather the argues loses me quickly. The other two guys did great. U guys should just do the next few episodes
Props to this channel for taking on Mike Winger’s anti-lds videos! I discovered Mike Winger in the wake of Roe v Wade being overturned as he has some great content defending the pro-life position, and found I agreed with a lot he had to say. I was disheartened though when I found out he takes such a harsh stance against the Church. But as you all rightly point out most of his arguments against the Church are quite shallow and really are just common evangelical talking points to keep their members from investigating the Church cause they are afraid of losing members, and are far from giving a fair representation of the evidence for and against the Church. I feel your frustration Cardon! I grew up in Atlanta, GA in the heart of the Bible Belt . I constantly was getting asked if I “Let Jesus into my heart” and all sorts of things like that growing up. It’s like “did I forget to tell you the name of my church?” Latter Day Saint’s we’re always getting excluded from other Christian coalitions such as “Christian Fellowship of Athletes” and even a lot of home school co-ops etc. Quite annoying.
@@robertalan2023 Évery idle word men shall speak,they shall give account of it in the day of judgement" Because What he don't realize is God is going to open up all of the Books not just only the Bible because the Bible is not the only book that will be opened up on Judgement Day. For all of the Books are going to be opened up.
A small correction given with respect: It was not the gold plates, but the brass plates which were prophesied by Lehi that they "should never perish; neither should they be dimmed any more by time." (1 Nephi 5:19) EDIT: Oooops! Alma 37:5 "they will retain their brightness; yea, and also shall all the plates which do contain that which is holy writ." So, all the plates with holy writ will retain their brightness. 2nd edit: Bro. Cardon Ellis, your laughter is so contagious especially at 1:42:13 !!! I almost purged my lunch!
I think that the Catholic apology handles issues much more formally and refined than the protestants. They tend to take Aquinas' method of questioning and answering everything. Very Judaic-like behavior. Also very Judaic like traditions that can't be compromised either.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 there's a reason why Christ's authoritative church on the earth right now can only be either ours or the Catholic Church. We operate on the same general principles, just not from the same premises. That's why Catholic apologia is so appealing.
Apostle John Widtsoe [1872-1952] is one of many Mormons who did not believe that the plates were made of gold as Moroni described. He concluded that the plates must have been made of a lighter alloy that was composed of primarily copper with some gold. He said: “If the plates were made of eight karat gold, which is gold frequently used in present-day jewelry, and allowing a 10 percent space between the leaves, the total weight of the plates would not be above one hundred and seventeen pounds-a weight easily carried by a man as strong as was Joseph Smith (John A. Widtsoe and Franklin S. Harris, Jr., Seven Claims of the Book of Mormon, p. 37).
The standard of truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done.
@@krismurphy7711It isn't. While most churches lost members during the Pandemic, The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints still increased 2%. And sure that wasn't as big an increase as before the Pandemic, but it was still an increase.
You guys should interview Wayne May. Would make for a cool conversation about the Hopewell Indians. Their time frame is exact Book of Mormon time frame. Lots of heart lander goodies
First, he never claimed to be a doctor of ministry, secondly, many of your beliefs can be argued with Bible scriptures and the Bible is the only scripture that matters.
It baffles me that Pastor Winger mocks Joseph Smith for a translation that is done by revelation instead of word by word from manuscripts… when all the Books of Moses were produced through the same method of revelation. The inconsistencies of the arguments leveled against our church but ignored to Christianity as a whole is astounding!
@@valeried7210 that is the point! How did Moses know about Adam and Abraham and Enoch and etc? Revelation! How did Joseph Smith get scripture? Revelation!
@@As-Eye-See-It I don't know what Christian scholarship says about this, but I think the early part of Genesis (2-5) was handed down through Noah. Either it was memorized or written. It's just way weirder compared to Genesis 1 and the rest of the book. Not the same literary style at all. Wasn't direct revelation to Moses IMO. I don't see translating with supernatural gifts as the same thing as revelation, unless the claim has changed to the idea he didn't use the gold plates at all. There is no comparison to what Joseph Smith did anywhere in the Bible.
This video randomly popped up on my timeline, this should be fun to listen to. I always enjoy hearing different perspectives on things. I will say though, from what I know of U.S. history is that Joseph Smith wasn't the most abolitionist mindset....that goes to Cassius Clay. He was denied a spot in running for political office, because he kept murdering pro-slavery people, and he opened a news press in the south that distributed nothing but abolitionist material. I will probably be editing this with questions or concerns throughout. I hope you'll respond almost a year later.
Do you think we believe things JUST because they're written? If so, then you need to know that that's a straw man. We don't believe in things JUST because they're written. Comic books are written about a dude from Krypton who came to Earth in a space ship and has super powers. That's written. That's a book that exists. We don't see that as scripture, and you know it. So, there must be some other metric than "just because it's written". Your name here is "LegBuilder", so you don't skip Leg Day. Good job. Now, don't skip Brain Day.
That is the entire premise of the LDS Church is they claim all other religions are false they are the one true church. They claim the bible is mis-translated and missing information.
You guys are very good at arguing against points he never made, creating the appearance of substantive arguments while leaving most of what he said unchallenged
One point I use with these arguments is: When people bring up the implausibility of Steel, they start with the fact that there have not been any STEEL artifacts found. But this statement is using the post Carnegie definition on Steel. His steel formula was discovered and then became the standard formulation and creation process. However, STEEL is found in writings into the BCs. Most notably is Toledo steel, a term from the middle second millennia. At that point, it noted a high quality iron blade that maintained strength and flexibility. Toledo became famous and rich off of their proprietary way of making quality blades and only teaching the process to local apprentices. It did not denote the chemical composition. That is the definition that Smith would have known and used. I also use the argument that people who have never seen a dolphin would know the correct name or how it looks.
You lads need to read the 8 letters that’s JS and OC wrote in response to “Mormonism Unveiled” First source testimony of Hill Cumorah. I know all the folks who served missions in central and South America yearn for the BOM to have occurred there where the people they fell in love with reside. But it’s kind of like Stephen Hawking looking for the origin of light and creation in black holes D&C 93.
@@wendyfoster5579 Easiest way to read them Johnathan Nevell “Letter VII” Digital Legend Publishing. I believe they are all their. Originally I believe they were published in the Times and Seasons
As a Protestant, I wish I had a heard more of the mod and Kwaku. Black hat is SUPER off-putting, his disposition makes it difficult to listen to. Personally not a fan of Winger, we disagree on quite a bit, but the straight bull dog attacks are poor.
You go Cardon! I’m a descendant of early church members who were persecuted by the mobs. My grandfather was Edmund Ellsworth . I know that we are supposed to avoid contention, but I am right there with you. Loved this episode. I actually learned a few things.
Wait, you guys do your show in LA? I'll be visiting the US (LA specifically) throughout the month of July. I would love to chat with you guys if you're down- and if Kwaku is still planning on boxing that one dude, I'll be happy to train him for it.
My personal theory of the mark of skin on the Lamanites, is that they mixed with indigenous peoples with darker skin. They did not understand genetics. They even comment how when Nephites mix with Lamanites, their children have the same mark.
This video is so sad. I was hoping the midnight Mormans would actually try and engage with opposing views. Unfortunately, all they ever seem to do is reduce their opponent’s video down to a couple of 2 sec clips so they can misrepresent the point their opponent is making. They then proceed to mock their opponent. Not only is any sort of Christian love and charity absent in this tactic, but it clearly shows that they are incapable of addressing any opposing views.
You each bring an interesting /valuable / entertaining contribution to this important discussion. This world is SO full of distortions & dishonesty that Jesus was crucified ... nothing worse could be said against Latter Day Saints. I would lay my life down, and have suffered great sacrifices, standing for my convictions from God to the truth of the Restoration. ❤
Mike Winger is an interesting character. He is strongly opposed to "Mormonism" but he isn't a Calvinist like other anti-LDS pastors. I haven't watched a lot of his videos since they are unnecessarily long. From what I can tell though, he is strangely more charitable to woman pastors and atheists than "Mormons." I wonder if he has really thought through what he believes in. At least Calvinists are pretty consistent in their stances.
17:04 I have worked in construction for a concrete foundation company. The forms ranged from 50lbs to 100lbs each. I've carried 225lbs in a modified single arm and shoulder carrier more than 1/4 mile, 10+ reps, over very rugged ground on construction sites. Now that isn't 3 miles, but I wasn't at Joseph Smith levels of physique (6' 4" and somewhere around 180-200lbs) with me at 6' even and 140lbs at the time, not to mention his load was 1/3 to 1/2 as heavy as that. It can be done.
Yall need to get David Alexander on the show this man he knows his Bible and the Bible speaks to him and he speaks through it the truths of the restoration. He just went on a show and smashed the guys with the bible. He is a new convert but man he is amazing. Yall need to reach out to him. David Alexander. His command of the bible os next to none I've honestly never seen anything like it.
From a metallurgist: the 8 witnesses described the plates as having a reddish tinge. That suggests gold alloyed with copper. Gold, copper and silver are often found close to each other in the earth as their melting pontes are similar. See the term Vug (Welsh) for how gold is concentrated in Magma.
it is interesting that people would defind a man that married over 40 women with the youngest being 14, Helen Mar Kimball. Doesnt sound like something a prophet of the lord would do.
There are 2 names translated into English as Joseph, yusef and asaph. I forgot which is which but 1 means suffering while the other means servant. They both apply equally well to Joseph of Egypt and Joseph of Sharon Vermont.
I think the thing that Mike-Mark Winger is threatened by are people actually praying about the Church and discovering for themselves that it's true.
@@lukev483 might sound awful but does that mean its not true? To take an example from history, lets say slavery in America, okay, you can hear that. You can believe that slavery is awful, you can believe white people are the reason slavery is evil, and the ancestry of slave-owners and their children and all sorts of other stuff. However it doesn't negate the fact that history has shown black Africans sold Africans into slavery. White slavery on the irish history, the history of slavery is not only frought with skewed and varying sides and degrees of relevant information. However if you take the stance that The historical significance of slavery ending in America allegedly in 1865. When the ratification of the United States law, the emancipation proclamation. My point is that you can take the facts that you don't like, and that seems to lead you to feel some type of way, but knowing of the miracles, the doctrine, the ideas of the church, and the actions of the churches teachings... bruv, so it goes. I am not gonna argue with you, and it is your belief. You have a lovely day, week, year. Take care.
@@lukev483 I will agree with you on the point of your first sentence in your comment. But only up to the point you made. Either its true, or it isn't. Beyond the facts, its experience which can be more emotionally lead, so.. bless. ✌
@@lukev483 What is the idea of the restored gospel?
The gospel as Jesus Christ established it in the first century AD as worshipped by early Christian’s before all the reformations neutered Christianity… that’s the restored gospel. Joseph smith received revelation as to how that church was built and “restored” it.
Sorry, NOT the restored gospel. It's sad how HEAVILY DECEIVED and SEVERELY CONDITIONED the members are. Not surprising though. Considering the malevolent spirit that controls and operates within the LDS organization. And the DECEPTIVE nature of that spirit. The hierarchy of the organization know full well of what they are ACTUALLY worshiping.
I'm looking into Mormonism and videos like this help. I was raised evangelical and we often consider Mormonism as extremely foolish. You guys do a good job of combating that idea
Thank you sir! By looking into do you mean looking into joining or just learning more about it from both sides?
As a Latter-day Saint who "looks into" other religions on youtube, I am here with you. I love Catholic and Jewish content, but I have a hard time getting into Protestant creators because I so often run into videos of them attacking my faith.
Looking into joining possibly, but I haven't been fully convinced. I'm currently reading the book of Mormon and it's pretty interesting
@@maxv2672LDS is a high demand religion. It’s very works based. There is nothing we can do to attain salvation. It’s what Jesus did on the cross for us. It’s by His blood that we are saved. Be careful.
@@melissamaertz Works-based... The Book of Mormon reads "It is by faith that we are saved, after all we can do," but that does NOT mean "once we have done all we can, we are saved by faith." We interpret it to mean "we are saved by faith *notwithstanding* all we can do." Faith and works are in balance to us: dead works will not save us if have have no faith, but neither will empty faith without any action.
There are almost as many passages about the importance of works as there are about the importance of faith. "Faith without works is dead" (James 2), "Not everyone who saith unto me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father" (Matthew 7), "If a man love me he will keep my words, and my Father will love him" (John 14), "Unless a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven" (John 3).
I know I’m late on this. But David Whitmer also had his testimony of the Book of Mormon inscribed on his tombstone! So there would be no confusion. Ever! The very fact that most of the witnesses at some point either permanantly or temporarily left the church yet NEVER denied their testimonies of what they witnessed more powerful from a strictly evidentiary stance than if they had all remained faithful.
If they denied their testimonies what would they be telling the world about their character? In those days reputation mattered. Go along to get along...
That's just because they wanted to control their own version of the scam. The only "witnesses" were Joseph Smith's family
I understand being upset by the continuous accusations from main stream Christianity. However, I don't believe the group at Ward did a very good job refuting any issues, even if the issues brought up were not developed to the fullest extent. For the most part the defense was standard apologetics and circular reasoning. I also understand that many other Christian apologists do the same thing defending their version of Christianity.
My question, after viewing this program is what is the purpose of the LDS church? There is no indication in the Bible that Jesus would reach out to the Americas. Unlike the Bible, the Book of Mormon is not attested by historical data. Modern LDS members seem to want to espouse a soteriology very similar to mainline Christianity. As time goes on it appears that there is very little that distinguishes LDS members from other Christians. So, why would God need to reestablish a church that provides the same understanding of salvation?
Alright Prairie Christian Outreach… you seem sincere enough I’ll engage. Before I answer you, I want to know, however, if you are presented with evidence that what you say is incorrect or we provide solid answers for your questions, do you commit to changing your rhetoric about “non-verifiability” of Mormonism, and “historical data” and such? Because if you are, I will gladly engage to the fullest extent, if not, you can check us off your “outreach box” and move on to another channel. The ball is in your court… I’ll even make an episode just for this if you’re truly sincere in your questions.
@@WARDRADIO I'm not rooting for any team here. Being involved with prison ministry has allowed me to study will all different kinds of beliefs. Also, being a Seventh-day Adventist I have been on the receiving end of some evangelicals. You should also note that I included LDS members in the body of Christ. I dislike the "cult" term as it is not helpful, and the term has a wax nose.
Regarding "rhetoric", if you can provide verifiable evidence that provides for an Iron Age culture from Israel in the Americas during the dates indicated by the BoM I would change my tone. However, this evidence must meet the scrutiny of modern secular scholarship.
I'm more interested in my later questions. What is the purpose of the LDS church? What does if offer that other churches do not? Why would God even need to establish another "true" church? I ask these questions with honest seeking curiosity. I have always been a seeker of truth. However, I try as much as possible to remove any preconceptions that interfere with my searching.
Blessings,
@@PrairieChristianOutreachthe priesthood authority was taken from the earth due to apostasy. It needed to be restored to restore the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant.
A pre-Colombian alloy which was called “Tumbaga” by the Spanish and it was usually made with gold, copper and silver which just so happens to be the same three ores quoted by Nephi in the Book of Mormon. The witnesses estimated the plates weighed between 40-60 lbs. Plates made of tumbaga would weigh approximately 53-58 lbs and would have been approximately 90% copper, 8% gold, and 2% silver.
"The heart deceives [...] And the witness of the Resurrection-not internal feelings, but rather they saw Him alive with their own eyes."
-Mike
"Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed."
-Jesus
Priceless.............Mormons are a hive mind. Their faith is built on others faith rather than Christ...You hear I know this church is true constantly, Basically word vomit...
Luke-after the resurrection-"did not our hearts burn within us-two Seventies on the Road to Emmaus.
Cardon’s favorite thing is saying “let’s let him speak” and then pausing it not 3 seconds later 🤣
💯
He totally does. I really want to hear the video they are discussing too
@nickallen. Well maybe it's because Mike Winger keeps saying dumb stuff. Get a clue.😅
Let them both speak. Just make the opportunity and allow others that same opportunity.
@@timothyfloogle I'm sure you are smart enough to listen to Mike Winger. No one is stopping you.
As one of the hated Protestant evangelicals, I wanted to watch this video because I’ve watched Pastor Wingers videos on Mormonism and I thought it would be fair and helpful to understand how Mormons think about these issues.
I really appreciate hearing what the guy in the blue shirt and the fellow sitting next to him had to say, they addressed things and I felt like it was helping me understand the ideas. And there are a lot of places where I would even agree with the blue shirt guy and his friend on some particular points.
But as whole, this video was extremely off putting. I had to wade through irrelevant personal attacks about Mike’s character & body (??! The gym comment ??!!) I had to tap out, because I felt like I couldn’t get many questions answered because I had to sit through these super long tangents just calling Mike dumb, paid off, making comments about his looks, etc etc - why would he come on your show when you’re behavior is clearing intending to just bully the guy? If you’re so tired of engaging with these arguments, to the point that these videos showcase behavior that isn’t exactly upright - you probably shouldn’t engage with them…
Nevertheless, I hope the two other guys guys start thier own thing :/ Enjoyed hearing them talk
I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I agree with your comment.
While I share in the frustration that this group feels when misinformation is spread, that frustration never justifies personal attacks or insults.
My hope is that future videos will focus on facts (which you can still be passionate about).
Thanks for the comment
- from the Blue shirt guy
Ad hominem attacks are all they have.
I was gna comment but you said everything I wanted to say. Thank you!
One thing ive learned studying apologetics is to always test your beliefs/views. Putting your convictions to the test is something many people struggle with.
Side note... I think the "Bible expedition convo with mormon" video is very informative.
God bless
"Expedition Bible, Test of a prophet" video.
My thought as a black person in the lds church, I joined when I was 17 years old but was an active non member sense I was 12 years old I am now 37 years. Let's say Joseph Smith was racist, just a thought not saying that he was. Let's say that he was, has a black person in the church, I have received the same blessings as any other members of the church, the doctrines are the same for every one and we are all trying to stay and partake in the grace and mercy of God. The church's teachings, the Bible and the book of Mormon has and is blessing all of our lives.
this is a very mature take. You're right.
And -- while it's irrelevant to the blessings you are receiving -- its worth noting that Joseph Smith was quite the opposite of racist. He was preaching to enslaved blacks in the south, which is what so incensed the southern slavers. Had Joseph been racist, he wouldn't have been killed! They chased us out, murdered my forefathers and mothers, to defend their slave economy (among other things). So ... yea, the first presidential candidate to be an abolitionist = definitely not a racist. The Book of Mormon is the most unifying and anti-racist book in the world. Especially when you consider that the people of Jared -- the most righteous people at the Tower of Babel -- were black! Native Americans, blacks, polynesians, EVERY ONE are God's children. Isn't is marvelous!
@@WARDRADIO yes you are correct! My point was if he was it doesn't make a difference to me because it is the church of Jesus Christ, But we know that he wasn't.
@@WARDRADIO Joseph Smith was a racist, and preached Blacks were a curse.
There’s more evidence Brigham Young was racist which you conveniently skipped over and left out the almost 100 years out of the 200 years of discrimination against people of Africa descent which the church went along with.
Is that not contrary to the claimed Curses of Cain and Ham?
I appreciate what you guys are doing, just a couple things, the “pyramid” temples in Mesoamerica have stairs, that is in direct violation of the law of Moses, “Exodus 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.” which the Nephites were well aware of. The carbon dating is also far outside of BoM timelines, they were built around 900AD which is almost 500 years after the total destruction of the Nephites. The glyphs system of writing is also recognized to be more closely related to Hindu than Egyptian and if you ask the native Americans themselves (meaning those tribes identified by Joseph Smith as the decedents of the Lamanites) if their ancestors crossed the land bridge from the west, they will tell you no, that their ancestors came from the rising sun (east) on boats. If you’re gonna conduct debunking guys, be a little bit more studied yourselves. Otherwise fun and great work.😉
Only God's Word is Truth.
It makes me laugh how we are as human beings.
We'll believe in gold plates if we want to steal them.
But we wont believe in them, if a book is written by them.
Keep it up guys! Too many of these anti mormons have been getting away with these lies for way to long and no one challenging them
100% agree.
@lukev483 Oh dear, another bitter hater who knows nothing about the church and its teachings. Don't worry. Your prophet John D will put your mind at ease with some "Mormon stories" for bedtime.
@@lukev483”can leave the church but can’t leave it alone” lol you stop the cap bud 🧢
@@gordianknot9595 lol most of my fam is agnostic, nicest try buddy ;) way to assume.
@@gordianknot9595 lol assume, assume, assume. Why don’t your retire and “leave the church alone” then we can talk about retiring the slogan that YOU make true haha!
Does anyone here ever read the comments section from the original videos from Mike Winger and others talking about LDS? There are so many comments of people saying how they were raised Mormon but came to know the truth of Jesus and Christianity as a whole.
I have. It is good that they found Christ because that means they did not have Him in their lives and that their religion was just culture. The more these same people draw closer to Christ I would stake my life on them returning to His Church. You can not know Jesus Christ without seeing His work in other organization. God will tell a honest seeker of His Son the truth about everything.
I'm one of those people. Learning about true Christianity and leaving the Mormon church led me to truly understand the saving Grace of Jesus. So many lies are taught about Jesus in the LDS faith, such as him bleeding from every pore (which never happened), and that we are saved by the grace of Christ "after all we can do" (Read Alma)... So many lies... So many Mormons are led to wrongly believe that their works in the temple are what saves them. After all the church teaches you can't live with your family forever if you don't follow along with the Masonic rituals of the Mormon temple.
So if I show you in luke 22:44 that he did sweat blood. Does that make you a liar or the scriptures a liar. Also, that only appears in the gospel of Luke. If you had only the 3 other gospels and someone came to tell you that it happened, you wouldn’t have believed but the it happened. It really did. Your ignorance of the scriptures and your arrogance and pride in thinking you were smart led you away from the true gospel. Don’t blame anyone else. Study your scriptures my friend
@@papayaw2920 yea Jesus did bleed blood…not from every pore though. Maybe you learn scripture without adding or subtracting to it?
@@honeysuckle9830 You sweat from pores?
May The True God, YHWY, bless you all... This saddens me.
It's always cute when someone who believes in talking snakes, talking donkeys, and baby-killing angels simultaneously makes fun of a religion that believes in golden plates and magical rocks.
I love how they pinned this comment lmaooo do they not see they're being flamed
@@yourancientancestorits more flaming mike winger more. He’s calling him a hypocrite. I don’t think you see that.
Going after Mike Winger, didn’t expect this. I’ve left several comments on his videos to the effect of: “Mike you got a lot of things about Mormons wrong.”
And to his credit he has sometimes responded “please detail the things you think I got wrong.”
And I’ve written out long essay responses to all the particular points in question for him. The problem is, that’s where the communication ends. He doesn’t respond to the long form rebuttal, only the quick “this is wrong” comments. So that cycle repeats as Mike continues to say the same misconceptions.
Granted this is in UA-cam comments and Mike is a busy guy. So perhaps this two hour video from a more prominent Latter-day Saint channel will get him to finally engage in-depth with some good faith discussions with people other than anti-Mormons.
One would hope, disagreeing with us is one thing, fine whatever. But we deserve some good proper arguments.
@@lukehanson_ Not just us, but the many people that listen to him. I can just see his recycled arguments spread like a disease through these DMV women.
Guys, I’ve got a great book for you to read, by a James Adair, written in 1775. It’s called The History of the American Indians. This gentleman lived among the southern eastern Indians for 11 years. They have so many similarities to the Hebrews. It’s an awesome book. I hope you’ll give it a good read. I also think it would be a great thing for your show.
Thanks for sharing. I hope they consider covering it
1775 .. thank you! With this information, other authors wrote fictional books about that, and then some uninformed people claim that the Book of Mormon is plaugerized from those. False, of course, if they would just read both side by side! ❤ it would make a good study for the show.
👍🏼
All this particular book claimed is the similarities of the American Indians , in both the north and the south, to the ancient Hebrew traditions. There’s so much more than that to the Book of Mormon, so so much more.
I am so looking into this! So cool!
I am a direct decendant of two families who suffered abuse in their countries for their belief and crossed the plains on the willie/martin handcart company. The church is no stranger to suffering 35:00
Who was your decendant from the hand cart companies? We came over on the willie/Martin companies as well. Allice Brooke’s is my family line… we related man?!
I had to turn this video off as it makes me sad and angry when someone can’t get their point across without personally attacking someone. If you can’t articulate yourself without personally tearing someone down about their looks or “strength” I can’t respect you enough to listen to the points you are trying to make.
Attack our youth? Get smacked.
Haha Kwaku’s rebuttals are my favorite part.
But there is nothing better than Cardon’s passion.
Better watch that hairline Mike!
That’s because we all like a “bad boy”. 😜
Nice channel, brethren. I had to fight in the Bible Belt in 1963-1965.
Right on
A big problem is that 'they' are hung up and solid on telling us what we believe. They're convinced that they know what we believe.
Someone in one of these comments sections called it "Evange-splaining." I thought that was brilliant. 😆
Do you believe in millions of gods?
Because that's what mormon doctrine teaches...
@@DrDoerk😂😂😂
That’s a great way to misrepresent what we believe. We believe that god will give us all that he has. Otherwise, why would even have a tiny portion of it with the priesthood?
What part of what he said do you not believe?
Boring morning and seeing a long MM episode posted just made everything better!!!
I just love this show! So much fun watching and hearing different perspectives! It’s so refreshing to finally have podcasts that reps us!! Keep up the great work brothers!! 🤙🤙🤙🙏👏👏
The guy running the soundboard made it completely impossible for anyone to make any coherent and thorough debunking/conversations.
I have actually worked for a guy who made a golden page out of gold to the specifications of the gold plates, And I got to write my name on them. It was easier than expected (although the metal tries to direct your hand) it just made me realize how easy it is to write on gold it was a fun experience.
tell us more!
@@WARDRADIO Well I worked at a coin mint that primarily worked with silver but sometimes gold, during my interview we got to talking about the church and what the artifacts of the past might have looked like, and he opened his safe and showed me a golden plate it was very thin and lighter than I expected. He gave me a metal pen type thing and said I could try writing. I barely pushed harder then I would have with paper and you could see the letters clearly. the only thing that affected writing was it trying to go along the path of least resistances which sometimes messed up the letters but it was pretty similar to writing on normal paper. and reading it was not difficult so long as you avoided glare from light. But the plate was like a note book page in size, which he said was about $10,000 worth of gold just for one plate. He also created a replica of the urum and thumim based on descriptions it was just made everything about the Book of Mormon feel so real and showed that it was very realistic when it came to the writing on plates of gold. It was a while ago so my memory of that moment has faded a little but the plate was pure gold and if I was to guess it weighed about 5 - 10 oz.
Also it worked better to write with straight lines then to attempt a more flowing style of writing which kind gives a better picture of what the writing on the plates might have looked like. you could write in a cursive like way, but you are prone to more mistakes. I think the words on the plates where probably more straight and rigid in style just based on how much easier it is to write in that style. But I don't know if it mentions what the symbols looked like anywhere I have not really searched for something to conform my assumption, it is just a guess from the experience I had.
@@WARDRADIO Explain how the amount of content in the Book of Mormon could come from the plates if they were written in some kind of Egyptian hieroglyphics. If you were to actually translate the book of mormon into Egyptian hieroglyphics inscribed on metal plates, how massive must those plates actually be. Deal with this please
@@sukt00 Are you trying to say that each hieroglyphic you think were on the "gold plates" represented entire paragraphs or stories? If you are, why would Nephi (Joseph really) say they were written in "reformed Egyptian." At that point it is an entirely new language that has zero to do with Egyptian. Egyptian hieroglyphics only represent single words or syllables. Conveniently, Joseph didn't know this in 1830, because the knowledge of the Rosetta Stone hadn't made it to rural New York yet. Sounds a little fishy to me.
"Why make a mountain out of a mole hill?" Because this is another example that no one considers as to how asinine the translation story of the BOM is. Just pointing it out to the world. Now you know at least and have to deal with a little more cognitive dissonance about how illogical this all is.
@@devinbateman243 but like... where did it come from then? Did this illiterate farm boy just make it up? I genuinely don't understand how that's possible
Christ giving the same speech verbatim isn’t even likely. The scribe writing down words that translate to the exact words when translated into English as the KJV Bible is insanely impossible.
I had an evangelical friend in Indiana who loved this guy and the Apologia crew among others. I rarely feel like the term "intellectually dishonest" is appropriately applied, but I remember watching some of Mike's videos and being very unimpressed by his incredible ignorance or intentional misdirection.
One of the key issues I think for people like him is they never even consider for a moment that the LDS church and Joseph Smith's story could possibly be true, so they never take an honest look at it. They just write it off out of habit (and insecurity over the tenuousness of a lot of evangelical positions).
But Joseph smith is one person…he’s saying all of the Bible isn’t totally accurate. Where are his golden plates? The Bible has more evidence and authors.
Maybe because you can’t find their verses Joseph Smith made up in any ancient manuscript? You might have a case if Genesis 50:33 actually existed.
Yes, Joseph Smith tried to add to the Bible. So wrong.
There is a contradiction I hear and read many times among those who attack the Latter-day Saints. Critics will first say something similar to this. "Mormons are frequently taught this doctrine,"
But then, speaking of the same doctrine or teaching, the critic will often turn it around and say something like, "Very few Mormons know this doctrine."
Here is a perfect example - Many critics say that Latter-day Saints are taught that "Joseph Smith did greater works than Jesus." This dates to a single, obscure quote from Joseph Smith which is often taken out of context in which Joseph Smith was discussing the growth of the early church compared to the struggles of early Christianity following the death of Jesus. No where in the quote that critics use does Joseph Smith say he was the Messiah or the Savior of the World, but this doesn't stop critics from overemphasizing this quote to make people think it says that very thing.
Of course, when Latter-day Saints hear this quote and are unfamiliar with its origins, the critic will say to them, "That's because it is one of those hidden facts about the early Mormon history that the church is trying to hide."
Huh? How can something which is presented as a common, well-known doctrine taught to many Latter-day Saints be something the Church is trying to hide?
Cardon, I am 100% in agreement about your opinion of the inspirational aspect of a lay ministry, not only because it keeps those who serve from serving mammon, but because it makes them capable leaders who serve in many capacities in their church life and in their community. My dad served in many bishoprics, and my father in law was a bishop, they are both converts, as are their wives. My mom has served in so many calling in primary and family history, and my mother in law has been RS president in at least one occasion. It is the strength of the church that God requires us to serve Him in ways that we require us to stretch and sacrifice on His behalf.
Thanks for this video! It was very helpful to understand someLDS beliefs from actual members :)
I watched Mike Wingers whole video you pulled clips from. In my opinion, the most compelling argument he had was not addressed here. It was on the topic of Joseph Smiths incorrect interpretation of the Egyptian scrolls which he said was the Book of Abraham, which later turned out to be not true, and was Egyptian rituals for burial. Perhaps you have a video on this topic already so you didn’t address it here? I’d love to hear your response to that particular claim.
They won't because it would be admitting they believe the fantasies of a PROVEN liar. And there are no hoops to jump through or ways to convelute that fact. That's why, and it's sad.
You are EXACTLY the type of person they are talking about. This question has been addressed YEARS ago multiple times AD NAUSEAM. Had YOU done a single google search - JUST ONE - you would’ve come across the church’s website that explains the answer. By the way this was posted on the LDS church site since 1988. How about YOU stop posting the same trope and figure out how to stop bearing false witness against thy neighbor!
@courtneyshannon1503 this question has been addressed so many times it gets old, unfortunately. I cannot post urls in the comment section because it will get flagged and removed so if you want the answer you can google the phrase:
Why doesn’t the translation of the Egyptian papyri found in 1967 match the text of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price?
And add the church’s website url in your query. The lds church has answered this already. I hope you find the answer you’re looking for. Truth is out there but you have to be willing to accept it when you find it and not continue to claim it’s false. If all one wants to do is say that what they know is truth and nothing more is truth then how will God ever show you more truth? As Carson said in his videos this was the same mentality that the sadducees had during the time of Christ. They hardened their hearts and because they didn’t want to give truth a place in their heart to test it, they literally stared their savior in the eye and said to crucify him. Don’t make the same mistake. There is truth in the Book of Mormon. I so testify of it!
I've read about it. So i can grab an old german newspaper having no clue what it says ''translate it'' and write the best novel ever, all inspired, on my translation. then this german dude shows up who can read it and says, its completeley unrelated. To anything what i said it meant. only to say: No, well, it was in the rest of the paper, but my dog ate it. so its all true! How is that not exactly what happend based on the materials of the LDS?@@NOSPAM-pb4tu
Dude this podcast is it. No shade on other fellow saint podcasts, but they’re so hard to relate to. Dudes being knowledgeable respectful, funny and just dudes. Thank you!
But how do you feel about the social bullying?
Or am i being too soft?
Lol respectful?? These dudes shit on literally every person they “debunk”
@@EriPages wtf are you taking about?
@@brandonhirschi7404 did they hurt your feelings?
@@kalinbutler9525they’re being a wonderful example of loving thy neighbor haha
I totally get the desire to build bridges and I’m so thankful for the approach Pastor Jeff takes. That said, while I usually I align with the peacekeepers… I’m with Cardon on this one. When lies and deception are so overt you can’t convince me it’s an error of ignorance or accident. It’s deliberate. It’s insidious. It’s maddening. Call ‘em out!
At the hour mark this is the response to why he focused on one false prophecy and not what came true
“But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 KJV
Because if one prophecy does not come true, he is not sent from Him.
Jonah?
@@royalestel Nineveh repented so the city was not destroyed, that was not a false prophecy but a warning that if they did not change their ways they were going to be destroyed, but they chose repentance.
Which of his videos are y'all responding to? I'm most curious about your response to "Why Mormons and Christians Can't Understand Each Other" -- in particular, as someone from a mainline Christian church, I agree with his definitions of "Christian" terms and am curious if he's fairly representing LDS' understanding of the "Mormon" terms he discusses. I would find your video much more helpful if it included chapters or timestamps delineating which topics you're covering -- 2 hours, or 1 hour on 2x speed, is a large chunk of time to devote to a podcast that might never cover the material I'm looking for.
If you have a recommendation for a response to "Why Mormons and Christians Can't Understand Each Other" from a "Mormon" perspective I'd greatly appreciate being pointed in the right direction.
TRUE. It was good Christians like Mike Winger that forced my ancestors to leave America but then join a Battalion to serve America.
Bingo
I grew up in Southern California like Cardon. There are many evangelicals in the area, and their pastors were very similar. My dad was a branch president and was asked to join a group of community clergy. They were supposed to discuss ways their congregations could work together to help the whole community. Sounds like a good idea, right? My dad had to stop going because the evangelical pastors were so contentious and all they wanted to do was bible bash. They had such a condescending and contentious spirit. My dad said he realized something after that experience. From their behavior he was convinced the loathed Latter-day Saints, and if those pastors could have, they would have driven every latter/day saint out of the community. Just like our ancestors.
I grew up in Southern California, too. I know the group of evangelicals you are talking about. The Campus Life crew in high school passing out anti material to other students. SMH
You guy had me Rollin on this one! Especially the "fact based religion" bit. Very well said! It was so funny how he said "based on 3 witnesses fact based religion" as if we don't!
About the Hill Cumorah: I've always just interpreted it as two different hills with the same name. There's the hill Cumorah (the battlefield) and Cumorah where Moroni buried the plates.
Guys you misunderstand the curse of Cain. It’s not a racist policy. The scriptures clearly state the seed of Cain were cursed as to the priesthood. Brigham Young clarified that they would get the priesthood again at some future date. You need me on the show
I N E V E R get tired of these anti debunking. You guys are the B E S T 🎯💥🎯💥. I think you're probably the only ones who do this and it's such an important work
@@lukev483 You are correct!! You fulfill prophecy in the last days so for you all to go would nagate what the Bible or BOM says. In fact, it's supposed to get so bad that people will start dying or be driven from their homes and lands defending the truth whether it LDS, Catholic, evangelicals etc.... Once you have all successfully gotten rid of us, and you will be successful. The world will be ripe for destruction. Whether you believe in the days of Noah or not and that God destroyed the earth once and will do it again doesn't make it any less true. People back then also laughed and mocked him, even tried to ki!! him many times. I can only imagine how they felt when the rain didn't stop. Next time around, it'll be different. So I ask you... bring on wars!! Bigger and faster so we can get this over with 🔥🥳🔥🥳💥💥💥💥
@@lukev483 I love how MM videos trigger luke and kris so hard. It's almost an addiction-level type of "can leave the church, but can't leave the church alone" behavior
@@GwPoKo I know right 🤣. I don't get it because my sister left the church years ago to live a wild life but she will never criticise the church or even talk about it. I don't understand how people leave the spend the rest of their lives obsessing over it🤷♀️. At least Luke and Kris are helping helping spread the videos by their need for attention 👍🤣
@@lukev483 And what have you offered them in return? A lost soul? Yippee... What an amazing exchange 🙄. Korihor offered many wonderful promises, a blissful life, saved followers from themselves but gave nothing. In the end, he paid the price and you will too
@@StompMom5 Luke is a troll. He is about as brainwashed as they come. He doesn't doubt anything his prophets say like John Dehlin, RFM, Bill Reel, and others. He says he has left the church, and instead he has joined mormon fake stories. He holds the CES letter up as his title of liberty 🤣🤣🤣
I know he didn't give us the same grace, but I still feel a little bad for Mike Winger for the beating he took in this debunk.
Mike Winger, this needs a response.
Absolutely.
Same grace?? The other dudes accused him of lying and intentionally misrepresenting after only hearing 20 second clips for the sake of fake drama and entertainment. They showed zero grace and Mike will absolutely not respond. You were the only good guy, Luke. Bravo.
Luke, can you link to some of the new data you guys were referencing regarding horses?
I can see one paper from Wade Miller in 2022, but it's not cited by anyone else and doesn't seem to have had an impact?
There's a big study from march 2023 that uses, "An assemblage of historic archaeological horse remains, integrating genomic, isotopic, radiocarbon, and paleopathological evidence" that concludes, "Together, DNA, archaeozoological, and stable isotope data support the introduction of Spanish-sourced domestic horses into Indigenous societies across the plains before the first half of the 17th century CE."
Are there other major papers I'm missing here?
@@latterdayskepticyeah Luke was graceful. Glad he was in this…even if he set up the video
Winger believes that Melchizedek of Genesis is Jesus. But hes got that one wrong. Jesus did not have multiple births. Or that contradicts the prophecy the prophets and the angels gave of his birth..... But He thinks as many evangelical Christians incorrectly believe that Jesus Christ is the only high priest of God of in existence and forget that there existed another high priest of God at the time of Jesus and his Apostles during his earthly Ministry called Annias who had healed Saul of his blindness with the power of God's Priesthood after the Melchizedek order of the Son of God.. Whom Paul had acknowledged as God's High Priest once he found out that he was God's high priest, for God has a priesthood order after the Son of God. But the Evangelical Christians incorrectly believe that the Son of God had no priesthood order. Many of them believe it was only just Jesus who held the high priesthood of God and nobody else. But that's not correct because Jesus ordained his apostles and the seventy to the Melchizedek Priesthood so they could do the same miracles that Jesus did.
Evangelical here that just finished listening to Russell M. Nelson's "Peacemakers Needed" talk for the third time. Very inspiring message from a very inspiring man. I have immense respect for Russell M. Nelson and always learn something listening to his talks.
Hate to say it guys but you might want to go back and listen to that talk again. You totally missed his mark with this video. I believe Mike Winger is a man who is truly seeking the Lord. He may have been harsh in some of the comments he made but that doesn't make it OK for you to attack him personally the way you did. Don't you think having dialogue with him instead of bashing him would draw our two faiths closer together? As an evangelical, I believe there are things I can learn from your church and I have learned things about OUR Savior from your church and your teachers.
You're telling him he needs to repent but after watching this video (which by the way I had a VERY hard time getting through because of your snarky attitudes), I think you need to look in the mirror and ponder once again the teachings of your modern day prophet. This video was the pot calling the kettle black and I don't think Russell M. Nelson would approve of your actions or attitudes. Believe it or not, there are evangelicals out there committed to bringing the walls down that have been built between our faiths. Videos like this aren't helping that.
I'll be praying for all of you. Blessings.
As a member of the Church I totally agree. We believe in "the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege."
We are also taught that repentance is an expression of love that offers peace. This video does not reflect those core beliefs.
The battle isn't against Mike. The battle is in the viewers. Young people (who are far more accustomed to short, sharp internet sparring) are watching Mike, and they need to know that he's deeply mistaken and being ridiculous. We aren't going to get mike a testimony, but we're gonna blunt his spear as he attacks the viewers, the 3rd parties, the innocent onlookers. They need to know that lies are lies and liars need Repenting. On the other hand, in our personal ministry, we'd love to chill with Mike.
Well...this dude are just trying to debunked those lies throws upon the church by this man...he deserved his own dose of medicine! 😊💗
Cardon i am with you! Im 69 yrs old. Starting in my elementary yrs i waa cinstantky attacked for being a mormon and i habdled it with love even though i was si frustrated, my feelings woukd get hurt. By the time i reached 7th grade i was sick of being bashed and bullied. In 7th grade i was jumped by 4 girls at school because i was a mormon, a freak! When my dad learned if thus he told me i am respinsible for defendung myself and my beliefs. These same 4 girls came after me again and though members may disagree, when this was about to happen to me again, somehow i fought back these 4 girls by myself and as they layed on thr ground looking shocked i told them until you read the book of mormon, until you investigate my church, i for warn you never attempt to touch me again.
This ended it and these 4 girls never bothered me agaun, instead wanted to be friends. Because of all this, another friend of mine at school whi was cuban was baptized and her entire famiky be ame members of the church. Im nit at all ind6ating fighting. This was just my experience and as terrufying as this was for me my friend and her entire family joined the church.
So i agree with you. The lying, the many times intentional attacks on us as members is wring and should be debunked. We should stand up against these things.
Cardon, I'm so proud of you!!! Defender of the Faith!!! You go boy!!!
Be blessed🌿
(I tried posting this comment before, but it may have been caught in the spam filters. The comment used to have links to the videos mentioned which I've now removed.)
I noticed Luke mentioned Trent Horn, which I find funny because Trent recently published a video "3 Reasons I'm Not Mormon". He brings up many points, but they're more from a theological and insightful point of view compared to Pastor Mike's approach, although he does bring up the translation argument with the Book of Abraham. I'd love to see you guys discuss this video too.
In addition, a channel known as Ready to Harvest, a channel dedicated to discussing different denominations, made a video "Are Mormons, Muslims, and Catholics Christian?". While the title of the video does come off as loaded, I think that the content of the video doesn't come off like that at all and it could spark a good discussion.
Keep up the good work!
Great Luke about the gold plates! Loved the scientific explanation!
Explain the rock in the hat.....
@@johnrowley310 what do you need an explanation of? Only a few say he used a hat. He was not allowed to show the urim and Thummim, so, some who have researched it believe Joseph may have used the stone in the hat to appease the curious with a vague idea on how he did translation. Joseph said he used the Urim and Thummim. Others did also.
@@silvereagle1717 Except Emma Smith wrote that Joseph was transcribing without the plates.
27:00 2 problems: (1) steel is not mentioned during the last battle of the Nephites. The last time steel among the Nephites is mentioned in the Book of Mormon is the book of Jarom (399-361 BC) After that, there's never a single mention of steel work, artifacts, tools, or weapons. (2) The presentist argument against modern carbon steel in the Book of Mormon is stupid and based entirely on ignorance of the history of the English language. In 1820 when the Book of Mormon was published, there was no carbon steel industry in America. Modern western carbon steel as we know it today wasn't even discovered (in Europe) until 1813, and wasn't manufactured in America until the 1850's. The kind of "steel" Mike Winger and similar critics are thinking of didn't exist in the US in the early 1800's.
During Joseph Smith's lifetime, the word "steel" meant "hard" (adj) "to harden or toughen up" (verb) or "hard metal alloy of any kind" (noun)
That being said, the museum collections of Pre-columbian Native American metal alloy artifacts featured in many of America's prominent museums are published online in their entirety and can be easily searched for and looked at by anyone willing to do their due diligence to find them. These artifacts include iron alloy tools, copper alloy swords, scimitars, axes, headplates, breastplates, and other weapons & armaments described in the Book of Mormon, (including the cut-resistant thick, padded clothing described in detail during the campaign of Captain Moroni during the 1st century BC.)
In the English language of 1820, describing all of these metal alloy artifacts as "steel" would have been correct, acceptable, and common.
But once again, we don't even need to point that out, since the last mention of steel among the Nephites was over 800 years prior to the last battle of the Nephites!
The willful ignorance in these arguments is painful.
@@gordianknot9595 you again? We did go over this and you were proved wrong on every single point, including the ones you’re trying to bring up now. And now you want to apply modern discoveries of old world carbon steel, using the modern usage of the word, to the English language of 1820? No, that’s not how linguistic chronology works.
@@gordianknot9595 Okay, I'll humor you. Let's work under the assumption that 2 Nephi 5:14 means that roughly in 588 BC, when Nephi says he made many swords "after the manner of the sword of Laban" that he meant specifically identical swords made with "fine steel", "exceedingly fine workmanship", and with golden hilts.
Let's one up that and work under the assumption that by "fine steel", Nephi meant rare Damascus steel. Let's double down on that and stupidly assume that by merely possessing a Damascus steel blade, Nephi was somehow magically imbued with the ability to replicate the lost art of forging high tech steel infused with carbon nanotubes.
Now, how many did he make to protect, in his own words, himself and his children? Let's one up that as well, and assume that Nephi made an awesome carbon steel sword for every adult Nephite male able to wield one. How many is that? Let's count: Nephi, Sam, Zoram, Jacob, Joseph, and let's assume that Nephi had at least 2 brother's in-law that stayed with the Nephites, since since Nephi mentions he had sisters.
If every one of these 7 men had as many children as early as possible after marrying in the wilderness after their exodus from Jerusalem, by the time Nephi made these swords, they might have a couple of teenage sons each. So we're talking a small militia of about 21 people defending the Nephite tribe with 21 highly ornate space age steel swords.
Let's just assume that all happened and there were in fact 21 identical copies of a this incredible sword among the Nephites approximately 2600 years ago. And you're asking me why you personally haven't been able to find one of those swords just lying around in modern America? Is that really where we're going with this line of questioning? Did I misunderstand you?
@ 1:21:06 Mike Winger literally has an ENTIRE series (playlist) called Jesus in the Old Testament that’s like 25 videos long where he goes through parts of the old testament that show and talk about Jesus… and also just for fun in Psalm 51 David writes and asks God not take his Holy Spirit from him. Do your research before you ask a ridiculous question.
Also all of you guys made several comments and jabs about how he’s just in it for the paycheck or he can’t disagree with “traditional doctrine” cuz he’ll get kicked out or something of the sorts. Once again if you guys did your research beforehand you would know Mike Winger has not been a pastor on staff at a church for some years now and makes his full living off of UA-cam and does it full time.
I’m so happy you guys addressed this! I hope Mike accepts your offer. Can’t wait for part 2!!!
What was addressed?
@@cldrawings1224 Just the video in general. I suppose ‘addressed’ wouldn’t be good as ‘responded’. I was glad they responded to his video. 🙂
@@TalonRoar so what exactly in there response did they debunked?
@@cldrawings1224I am rewatching the video in order to give you the best possible answer. Currently, I’m listening and jotting down points which I will be happy to relay back to you in this thread once I’m done. It’ll take me a bit, but you should see it hopefully later today. 😁
@@TalonRoar No problems I'll wait, but how could you have posted earlier " happy you guys addressed this" but unable to even share 1 thing they addressed? Sincere question.
I appreciate Luke's nuance. You guys should have him on more often. Very interesting how everyone's perspective is a little different
Thanks!
I think you all make a lot of valid points, and it does seem that Mike Winger is understudied in several key areas. I do have a few points I want to raise. Full disclosure I’m a Christian and not a Mormon. For one, the method Joseph Smith used to interpret the Book of Mormon was a seer stone. Which from what I’ve gathered is a American folk magic practice. We know from the Bible God is rather aggressively against all witchcraft, to the point that in ancient Israel it was punishable by death (Ex. 22:18). Doesn’t it seem odd that God would have a prophet use witchcraft to relay a message he wants to his people? A kingdom divided against itself can’t stand, God doesn’t need darkness to bring forth light. Also Christ spoke about his work being finished and the scriptures being fulfilled (John 19:30). Where in the New Testament does it speak of us needing another Gospel or an addition to the Gospel? In fact Paul declares if anyone brings you another Gospel, even an Angel, let him be accursed (Gal 1:8). If any Mormon would like to respond to these points I’m open to dialogue. I’m not here to cause controversy, just debate diplomatically in the scriptures. Be Blessed.
Look up the urim and thumim. It was used throughout the old testament. They were stones that gave interpretation. The object doesn't matter, but the source does. According to the book of revelation, those who endure will all be given a white stone.
Elder Neal A. Maxwell has written: “It is the author’s opinion that all the scriptures, including the Book of Mormon, will remain in the realm of faith. Science will not be able to prove or disprove holy writ. However, enough plausible evidence will come forth to prevent scoffers from having a field day, but not enough to remove the requirement of faith. Believers must be patient during such unfolding” (Plain and Precious Things (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1983), 4.).
Unlike the Old and New Testaments.
@@krismurphy7711 the Holy Bible is milk meant for children, The Book of Mormon is meat meant for grown-ups, go away until you are more spiritually mature to get into the good stuff, Kris!
@@GregFessia ALERT!!! IGNORANCE CARD PLAYED!!!
So according to you they have proven a global flood, the Tower Of Babel, Jonah surviving three days in the stomach of a great fish, Behemoth and Leviathan, the Garden Of Eden and so on and so forth. Or do these things still require FAITH to believe in? As for the New Testament, walking on water, commanding the weather, the dead coming back to life, some centuries after their deaths and so on and so forth. Again are these proven, or is FAITH required still? You act like the Bible has been so much more proven, just because they are able guess where cities are located, based on a description of the land being divided for the tribes of Israel. But for all this, they still haven't been able to prove the existence of King Solomon, even though he was so rich and famous the Queen of Sheba, which also there is no evidence for, came a great distance to see him herself. Prophecy 1 you 0.
Revelation 22:18-19 ESV
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Deuteronomy 4:2 ESV /
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.
I love it when you guys call out liars to repentance. These are my favorite topics that you cover. Keep it up, brethren!
So when Joseph Smith lied, it was ok to call him out...then and now???
But they are not bothered by Joseph Smith's lies?
@@krismurphy7711everyone lies buddy I’ve seen lies in your past comments
@@mickski548 That is a lie. I NEVER LIE. Why don't I lie? Because it is too easy to be attacked and disproven when a person lies. Opens up The Character Issue. So liar...how did your lie work out for you?
@@krismurphy7711 you never lie? Just right there you lied to me lol
The book of Mormon has nothing to do with the native Americans....
It seems like after I got into the video at the end I started to comment comment at the same time you guys were. I did not receive a witness of the Book of Mormon for 15 years plus of its truthfulness. I knew it was true because of the research I did while reading it multiple times. And then after I learned it from analytical position then I was given that witness that I was not engaged in prayer asking about it just came in another interaction with testimonies from others.
Dear @alatterdaysaintonfire5643,
Thy testimony is a poignant reminder that our journey to truth is deeply personal and often varied. Just as Alma spoke in the Book of Mormon, "And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good" (Alma 32:33). Some hearts find witness through fervent prayer, while others, like thine own, find it through diligent study and the testimonies of others. We rejoice in the unique ways our Heavenly Father speaks to each of His children. Thank thee for sharing thy journey of faith, for it strengthens and uplifts all who hear it. In the sacred name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
Good on you for sticking up for Jehovah Witnesses. I hate it when I see people bashing them. I may not agree with them but I respect them for their faith and devotion.
Thank you guys for calling out these pastors and ministers of fear and their lies and misrepresentations. You doing one heck of a job.
Dear @helgemrklid2229,
Verily, thy kind words are most appreciated. We are humbled in our endeavor to stand for truth and righteousness amidst the mists of misconception. As the scriptures teach, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). Our sincere hope is to be instruments in the hands of the Lord, dispelling fear and bearing testimony of the restored gospel of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are heartened by thy support and prayers. In the sacred name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
@@apologetiquesinvestigations Verily, my dear @helgemrklid2229, I dost thank thee for thy kind words and commendation. 'Tis a noble task to bring forth truth and dispel fear and falsehoods. Now, as to the query raised by @apologetiquesinvestigations regarding the statement of the Prophet Joseph Smith, allow me to elucidate with brotherly love and scriptural references.
Joseph Smith, the prophet and founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, did indeed speak these words. They reflect a unique doctrine of the Church, emphasizing the eternal progression and exaltation of humankind. This concept is rooted in the belief that God, our Heavenly Father, desires for us to become like Him, as His children.
This doctrine can be likened unto the words found in Psalms 82:6, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Furthermore, in the Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, it is written in Moroni 7:48, "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."
This concept is further expounded in the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, found in the Doctrine and Covenants, particularly in Section 132:20, which states, "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; thus shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them."
These scriptures underscore the belief in the potential divine nature and destiny of mankind. The idea of becoming like God is a central tenet of the Restoration of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as restored through the prophet Joseph Smith.
In brotherly love, I invite thee to ponder these truths and seek further understanding through prayer and study of the scriptures. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints offers a unique and profound perspective on the nature of God and our relationship with Him, a perspective that is rooted in the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
As a Mexican Mestizo aka a person with Native American and Spanish descent, the Book of Mormon actually elevates my culture and makes me feel glad that Jesus would visit other people groups including my ancestors.
Luke completes the circle. Always have this dude with you all.
Cardon is on fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrreee! Great episode, very fair and balanced!
Mike's response to this video is going to be epic.
Hopefully he does one
Mike is too popular for these guys, plus it gives more of a platform for bad theology. This channel is making their own cult separate from the cult of mormonism
@TS-ee7jx Great point. I saw one of these dudes get absolutely owned on Apologea to the point that I felt bad for him. Mike doesn't need to pile on.
It's pretty rough that these dudes somehow make mormons look even more silly.
Great show guys again. When you brought up the quote from Deuteronomy 13:1-3, I am reminded of this fact. God is setting the course in which Jesus Christ will eventually be crucified. If this law is not in place, then the people who condemn Jesus Christ because of this law would not have a law to condemn him by.
I am not a Mormons but having the main dude attack the character of Mike rather the argues loses me quickly. The other two guys did great. U guys should just do the next few episodes
Whoo! Im excited for a 2 hour episode! This should be good! Kwaku is GOLD 🤣😂
Props to this channel for taking on Mike Winger’s anti-lds videos! I discovered Mike Winger in the wake of Roe v Wade being overturned as he has some great content defending the pro-life position, and found I agreed with a lot he had to say. I was disheartened though when I found out he takes such a harsh stance against the Church. But as you all rightly point out most of his arguments against the Church are quite shallow and really are just common evangelical talking points to keep their members from investigating the Church cause they are afraid of losing members, and are far from giving a fair representation of the evidence for and against the Church.
I feel your frustration Cardon! I grew up in Atlanta, GA in the heart of the Bible Belt . I constantly was getting asked if I “Let Jesus into my heart” and all sorts of things like that growing up. It’s like “did I forget to tell you the name of my church?” Latter Day Saint’s we’re always getting excluded from other Christian coalitions such as “Christian Fellowship of Athletes” and even a lot of home school co-ops etc. Quite annoying.
Yeah, but... Its ok, we arent excluded from the best things
This guy is gonna get a rude awakening if he don't repent for hes not prepared for the Second Coming
@@germansliceWhat rude awakening? He’s not going to hell?
@@robertalan2023
Évery idle word men shall speak,they shall give account of it in the day of judgement"
Because What he don't realize is God is going to open up all of the Books not just only the Bible because the Bible is not the only book that will be opened up on Judgement Day. For all of the Books are going to be opened up.
A small correction given with respect: It was not the gold plates, but the brass plates which were prophesied by Lehi that they "should never perish; neither should they be dimmed any more by time." (1 Nephi 5:19) EDIT: Oooops! Alma 37:5 "they will retain their brightness; yea, and also shall all the plates which do contain that which is holy writ." So, all the plates with holy writ will retain their brightness.
2nd edit: Bro. Cardon Ellis, your laughter is so contagious especially at 1:42:13 !!! I almost purged my lunch!
As a convert from Catholicism who also loves Pints With Aquinas, you NEED to have Matt Fradd on your show!
I second this! Matt Fradd is rad!
That would blow my mind
I think that the Catholic apology handles issues much more formally and refined than the protestants. They tend to take Aquinas' method of questioning and answering everything. Very Judaic-like behavior. Also very Judaic like traditions that can't be compromised either.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 there's a reason why Christ's authoritative church on the earth right now can only be either ours or the Catholic Church. We operate on the same general principles, just not from the same premises. That's why Catholic apologia is so appealing.
History of the Church recorded how heavy the plates were. They were about 40-60 lbs.
Apostle John Widtsoe [1872-1952] is one of many Mormons who did not believe that the plates were made of gold as Moroni described. He concluded that the plates must have been made of a lighter alloy that was composed of primarily copper with some gold. He said: “If the plates were made of eight karat gold, which is gold frequently used in present-day jewelry, and allowing a 10 percent space between the leaves, the total weight of the plates would not be above one hundred and seventeen pounds-a weight easily carried by a man as strong as was Joseph Smith (John A. Widtsoe and Franklin S. Harris, Jr., Seven Claims of the Book of Mormon, p. 37).
The standard of truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done.
So why is The Church losing Members???
The Church is going off a cliff.
The Church is closing wards at the rate of one every 5 weeks in The U.K.
Based
@@krismurphy7711It isn't. While most churches lost members during the Pandemic, The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints still increased 2%. And sure that wasn't as big an increase as before the Pandemic, but it was still an increase.
You guys should interview Wayne May. Would make for a cool conversation about the Hopewell Indians. Their time frame is exact Book of Mormon time frame. Lots of heart lander goodies
Does the guy on the soundboard even know what Mike Winger does for a living? His channel is not associated with the church he is a part of.
First, he never claimed to be a doctor of ministry, secondly, many of your beliefs can be argued with Bible scriptures and the Bible is the only scripture that matters.
It baffles me that Pastor Winger mocks Joseph Smith for a translation that is done by revelation instead of word by word from manuscripts… when all the Books of Moses were produced through the same method of revelation. The inconsistencies of the arguments leveled against our church but ignored to Christianity as a whole is astounding!
Moses didn't translate anything.
@@valeried7210 that is the point! How did Moses know about Adam and Abraham and Enoch and etc? Revelation! How did Joseph Smith get scripture? Revelation!
@@valeried7210Yeah, God was doing the translating, Moses, just like Jospeh, was merely the relay of His word.
@@kelkidman1319 huh? God translates his own speech? Sounds more Trinitarians than tritheistic. 🙂
@@As-Eye-See-It I don't know what Christian scholarship says about this, but I think the early part of Genesis (2-5) was handed down through Noah. Either it was memorized or written. It's just way weirder compared to Genesis 1 and the rest of the book. Not the same literary style at all. Wasn't direct revelation to Moses IMO.
I don't see translating with supernatural gifts as the same thing as revelation, unless the claim has changed to the idea he didn't use the gold plates at all. There is no comparison to what Joseph Smith did anywhere in the Bible.
Every one of the general authorities receives a paycheck from the church.
YAASSSSS....I'VE BEEN WAITING **YEARS** FOR THIS!!!!!
This video randomly popped up on my timeline, this should be fun to listen to. I always enjoy hearing different perspectives on things. I will say though, from what I know of U.S. history is that Joseph Smith wasn't the most abolitionist mindset....that goes to Cassius Clay. He was denied a spot in running for political office, because he kept murdering pro-slavery people, and he opened a news press in the south that distributed nothing but abolitionist material.
I will probably be editing this with questions or concerns throughout. I hope you'll respond almost a year later.
if you would like i can write another book as well and call it the third testament of jesus christ. would you believe it since it is written.
Do you think we believe things JUST because they're written? If so, then you need to know that that's a straw man. We don't believe in things JUST because they're written.
Comic books are written about a dude from Krypton who came to Earth in a space ship and has super powers. That's written. That's a book that exists. We don't see that as scripture, and you know it. So, there must be some other metric than "just because it's written".
Your name here is "LegBuilder", so you don't skip Leg Day. Good job. Now, don't skip Brain Day.
Never I heard that the LDS church never ever questions or spread lies on other faith and religions! 😊💗😁
That is the entire premise of the LDS Church is they claim all other religions are false they are the one true church. They claim the bible is mis-translated and missing information.
You guys are very good at arguing against points he never made, creating the appearance of substantive arguments while leaving most of what he said unchallenged
My favorite is the claim that important documents were scribed on metal. The one copper scroll was just locations for mining...nothing religious
One point I use with these arguments is:
When people bring up the implausibility of Steel, they start with the fact that there have not been any STEEL artifacts found. But this statement is using the post Carnegie definition on Steel. His steel formula was discovered and then became the standard formulation and creation process. However, STEEL is found in writings into the BCs. Most notably is Toledo steel, a term from the middle second millennia. At that point, it noted a high quality iron blade that maintained strength and flexibility. Toledo became famous and rich off of their proprietary way of making quality blades and only teaching the process to local apprentices. It did not denote the chemical composition. That is the definition that Smith would have known and used.
I also use the argument that people who have never seen a dolphin would know the correct name or how it looks.
1:48:00
Mike would still deny the LDS church if he was visited by an angel, because he would convince himself Galatians 1:8 was against the angel
I love listening to you guys while I drive my semi truck around the oil fields of eastern Utah. You guys keep me laughing!!! Thank you!!!
You lads need to read the 8 letters that’s JS and OC wrote in response to “Mormonism Unveiled” First source testimony of Hill Cumorah. I know all the folks who served missions in central and South America yearn for the BOM to have occurred there where the people they fell in love with reside. But it’s kind of like Stephen Hawking looking for the origin of light and creation in black holes D&C 93.
Where are they found?
@@wendyfoster5579 Easiest way to read them Johnathan Nevell “Letter VII” Digital Legend Publishing. I believe they are all their. Originally I believe they were published in the Times and Seasons
As a Protestant, I wish I had a heard more of the mod and Kwaku. Black hat is SUPER off-putting, his disposition makes it difficult to listen to. Personally not a fan of Winger, we disagree on quite a bit, but the straight bull dog attacks are poor.
You go Cardon! I’m a descendant of early church members who were persecuted by the mobs. My grandfather was Edmund Ellsworth . I know that we are supposed to avoid contention, but I am right there with you. Loved this episode. I actually learned a few things.
Wait, you guys do your show in LA? I'll be visiting the US (LA specifically) throughout the month of July. I would love to chat with you guys if you're down- and if Kwaku is still planning on boxing that one dude, I'll be happy to train him for it.
@MidnightMormons THIS needs to happen! an episode with @RamseyDewey is must see! ❤❤❤
My personal theory of the mark of skin on the Lamanites, is that they mixed with indigenous peoples with darker skin. They did not understand genetics. They even comment how when Nephites mix with Lamanites, their children have the same mark.
Holy Crap I was going to make a video about this guy.
Your channel is awesome! Just subscribed
Another one can't hurt:)
@@stonefallknives5518 oh you're awesome!
dude thanks! I just posted some DNA evidence @@stonefallknives5518
This video is so sad. I was hoping the midnight Mormans would actually try and engage with opposing views. Unfortunately, all they ever seem to do is reduce their opponent’s video down to a couple of 2 sec clips so they can misrepresent the point their opponent is making. They then proceed to mock their opponent. Not only is any sort of Christian love and charity absent in this tactic, but it clearly shows that they are incapable of addressing any opposing views.
You each bring an interesting /valuable / entertaining contribution to this important discussion.
This world is SO full of distortions & dishonesty that Jesus was crucified ... nothing worse could be said against Latter Day Saints. I would lay my life down, and have suffered great sacrifices, standing for my convictions from God to the truth of the Restoration.
❤
Mike Winger is an interesting character. He is strongly opposed to "Mormonism" but he isn't a Calvinist like other anti-LDS pastors. I haven't watched a lot of his videos since they are unnecessarily long. From what I can tell though, he is strangely more charitable to woman pastors and atheists than "Mormons." I wonder if he has really thought through what he believes in. At least Calvinists are pretty consistent in their stances.
17:04 I have worked in construction for a concrete foundation company. The forms ranged from 50lbs to 100lbs each. I've carried 225lbs in a modified single arm and shoulder carrier more than 1/4 mile, 10+ reps, over very rugged ground on construction sites. Now that isn't 3 miles, but I wasn't at Joseph Smith levels of physique (6' 4" and somewhere around 180-200lbs) with me at 6' even and 140lbs at the time, not to mention his load was 1/3 to 1/2 as heavy as that. It can be done.
Dude. You're ripped. And they always leave out the part that it wasn't actually 225lbs. It was around 60 lbs.
Yall need to get David Alexander on the show this man he knows his Bible and the Bible speaks to him and he speaks through it the truths of the restoration. He just went on a show and smashed the guys with the bible. He is a new convert but man he is amazing. Yall need to reach out to him. David Alexander. His command of the bible os next to none I've honestly never seen anything like it.
He's definitely has one EPIC channel 👌. I wish anti channels would have him on😅. He'd blow them out of the water
Alexander acts like a recently released patient from a psych ward
From a metallurgist: the 8 witnesses described the plates as having a reddish tinge. That suggests gold alloyed with copper. Gold, copper and silver are often found close to each other in the earth as their melting pontes are similar. See the term Vug (Welsh) for how gold is concentrated in Magma.
You guys are awesome!!! Love the content!
it is interesting that people would defind a man that married over 40 women with the youngest being 14, Helen Mar Kimball. Doesnt sound like something a prophet of the lord would do.
Its interesting that by there own standard Joseph Smith would be excommunicated from the church.
There are 2 names translated into English as Joseph, yusef and asaph. I forgot which is which but 1 means suffering while the other means servant. They both apply equally well to Joseph of Egypt and Joseph of Sharon Vermont.
That's so interesting!
Actually, I believe Avengers was about how thanos would turn all ammo Into bubbles if he could...