Hey guys! Ok here is a little summary in case you don´t have time to watch the whole thing: 1. Low level topology with redirection on corners may result in pinching. 2. Higher density topology with redirection on corners may result in pinching as well. If you´re using a non glossy material with high roughness, for an object that is not fully in focus, you´ll be fine and pinching itself is not an issue. 3. Low to mid level topology and no redirection on corners will show no pinching but softer corner. 4. Higher level topology and no redirection on corners will show no pinching and sharper corner. This approach will show no pinching, but geometry will be denser. Background objects like props or random kitbash parts are ok with minor pinching. Hero assets that are more in focus will need to have a smoother mesh and no visible break in surface. Finally, understand the purpose of the object and its use, then its easy to balance the approach from above. If you´re a beginner, I highly recommend to practice all of the approaches for yourself as a proper habit building exercise.
The easiest way I found of removing pinching, / normal artifacts on curved surfaces: 1. Start with a high poly mesh whose polygon density is equal to support loops and let those extra edges serve as support loops because they are so close to where the support loop should be 2. The best way - model your mesh low poly without support loops add all of the details you want without support loops, use creasing or edge split on edges where support loops should go. Subdivide as many times as needed then add in the support loops. The second method is very flexible, we can go back and change the subdivision if there is too much / too little subdivision on our model then add in the support loops. We can basically model the entire model with small details on a curved surface and later on apply support loops. I believe this is how professional 3d artists do it and it has been done like this since the 90's
well i dont think more topology fixes the problem. what if i really need sharp corner not a semi sharp like ( yeah it will do i guess)? and i dont want to have thousands of quads as default without subdivision. then it will make problems for UVs and other stuff
Like mentioned in the video, depends on a purpose and distance of the object . You are welcome to test the results yourself on different cylinder segments with different material types.
@@Elementza dont get me wrong mate. Im finding your tutorials and knowledge one of the best in regards of Subd workflow. It's just makes me mad that there is no more likeable way to do it without Cad or fuckin booleans. Cheers
@@ermac1295 Don't sweat pinching to much. Subd has , and always will be- just an approximation and you will never get perfect shading, but the beauty is that most people will never notice :)
Coming from a background in engineering and mathematics, I don't think the statement that 'redirection will always result in pinching' is necessarily true. From the perspective of math, the pinching look comes from the normals being computed and saved on the vertices, and the way modelers handle normal data means that basically, the normals aren't quite right for the desired curve. And no doubt, it may be hard to get the modeler to correctly determine the normals needed to not cause the appearance of a pinched surface. I really appreciate the methods here to try and force the modeler to avoid the problem to begin with, but I think there should be a method to get the modeler to properly recompute the normals. I think I've seen some videos to compute the proper normals on another mesh of say, a complete cylinder, then transfer the normal data to the mesh with the hole in it, but I'm less of an expert in the quirks of polygon modeling tools and how to get them to behave. But other modeling techniques simply don't have this issue due to how they create normal data around holes or sharp angles.
Hey thanks for sharing your input! I have a mechanical engineering background myself too so I understand what you mean and I did cover this topic more in detail in my workshop...but please understand that goal of the video was to give a small summary on most commonly asked questions regarding pinching, which are always in relation to low geo and redirected edge from the beginners side. Understanding that redirection is not the only way to solve a corner, may help in creating stronger skill in long run. Hope this brings some context.
@@Elementza I understand, and I agree, it's good to share some quicker, simple solutions and pointers how to avoid getting to this spot to begin with. I was just confused because the statement implied it couldn't be handled any other way. I get frustrated with this same problem, because I know it shouldn't have to be this way, but I struggle to get blender (in my example) to fix the normals properly. Is your workshop in your UA-cam video list? I'll take a look, since I'm curious about other methods. I've seen it fixed in a couple ways, but most were either not using meshes basically (like using SDFs or NURBS), or some method of copying normal data from one thing to another. But it seems like there should be a better way.
Best piece of advice I ever read regarding Subd modeling: Subd is an approximation and you will never get CAD-like shading if you're using it. I'd like to echo the sentiment that you always need to consider your model's use case, always. If its not seen from an extreme close up, only subd modeler turbo nerds will ever notice any pinching, and if that is your target audience well maybe you want to spend more time on the asset but for the rest, nobody will ever see it. TLDR Don't sweat small pinching here and there too much, it will distract you from focusing on the big picture and actually finishing your projects.
Yea, we do this in blender with shrinkwrap modifier. Idk why he complicates things. Perhaps it even faster do do model in cad, and quickly retopologize it
Yeah but please note that if the fundamental issue is not solved, pinching will still be there regardless of the modifier used (which is the topic of the video). This topic is covered too on this channel already of you wish to check it in detail ua-cam.com/video/-lWJuo_uj4A/v-deo.htmlsi=Uq91WPhYGVpD6ano
i didn't get it, whitch issue is not solved? you create guading mesh without any holes, make a coly of guading mesh and make any holes with many support edges, and shrinkwram modifier solve all those pinches which was created by supporting edges. Just try it, Create cylinder, make it as smooth as possible, then create a secon one, and make square hole. After that adding subd modifier and add supporting enges for this hole. It works, without all that booring stuff in terms of tweaking edges back and forth @@Elementza
@@user-cl5mj3rl3e Shrink wrap is not all in one solution for every situation unfortunately. Depending on it to solve minor issues is gonna prove very time consuming on slightly bigger projects. Examples here cover understanding behind pinching, which can be applied in any situation... modlifier or no modifier. Boring or not, what matters is efficiency and results. In the end client cares only that we deliver and on time. How we get there, its all up to us. Workflow you mentioned, I already covered in older video, shared above. Thanks for sharing your input.
Thanks a lot, but what we can do if we have deep square extrusion in cylinder and we need to save hard edges?)))😂😂😂 after that the talk about AI every day😂😂😂 We can't create hard edges without pinches in 21st century😂😂😂
A new subdivide paradigm is needed, something new, nor nurbs, or vdb, we are stuck in the 90's, we are just brute-forcing everything with digital sculpting, or higher subdiv levels, two industries pushing in different directions, production and games lol, Production: lets do it "correctly!", wait at which distance is this object going to be from the cam? lol.... Games: Lets go nuts!, cad? YES, polys? YES lotssss its for baking who cares...., Unreal: Hold my beer!, NANITE LOOOL. Something new has to happen.....this is not sustainable. CAD: Alias, SolidWorks, Creo: CAD/Subdiv Hybrids..............Looool, what are we doing.....The era of Edwin Catmull and Jim Clark have to END and something new have to come.
Hey guys! Ok here is a little summary in case you don´t have time to watch the whole thing:
1. Low level topology with redirection on corners may result in pinching.
2. Higher density topology with redirection on corners may result in pinching as well.
If you´re using a non glossy material with high roughness, for an object that is not fully in focus, you´ll be fine and pinching itself is not an issue.
3. Low to mid level topology and no redirection on corners will show no pinching but softer corner.
4. Higher level topology and no redirection on corners will show no pinching and sharper corner.
This approach will show no pinching, but geometry will be denser.
Background objects like props or random kitbash parts are ok with minor pinching.
Hero assets that are more in focus will need to have a smoother mesh and no visible break in surface.
Finally, understand the purpose of the object and its use, then its easy to balance the approach from above.
If you´re a beginner, I highly recommend to practice all of the approaches for yourself as a proper habit building exercise.
I wish I found your channel years ago when I first started getting into modeling. I had given up because of frustrations with stuff like this.
The easiest way I found of removing pinching, / normal artifacts on curved surfaces:
1. Start with a high poly mesh whose polygon density is equal to support loops and let those extra edges serve as support loops because they are so close to where the support loop should be
2. The best way - model your mesh low poly without support loops add all of the details you want without support loops, use creasing or edge split on edges where support loops should go. Subdivide as many times as needed then add in the support loops.
The second method is very flexible, we can go back and change the subdivision if there is too much / too little subdivision on our model then add in the support loops. We can basically model the entire model with small details on a curved surface and later on apply support loops. I believe this is how professional 3d artists do it and it has been done like this since the 90's
The content you make is just 🔥
Awesome! I was wondering how to fix this and it makes so much sense now. Thanks.
My best teacher.
Oww my, top quality content!
Lots of love Legend!! 🤍🤍 Big fan!!
Hey man! Your awesome! Greetings from México
excellent!!
Thank`s! Your videos as always very useful. Greetings from Ukraine)
Nazi
Is this a situation where you would use crease weighting?
ON Fire 🔥
well i dont think more topology fixes the problem. what if i really need sharp corner not a semi sharp like ( yeah it will do i guess)? and i dont want to have thousands of quads as default without subdivision. then it will make problems for UVs and other stuff
Like mentioned in the video, depends on a purpose and distance of the object . You are welcome to test the results yourself on different cylinder segments with different material types.
@@Elementza dont get me wrong mate. Im finding your tutorials and knowledge one of the best in regards of Subd workflow. It's just makes me mad that there is no more likeable way to do it without Cad or fuckin booleans. Cheers
@@ermac1295 Don't sweat pinching to much. Subd has , and always will be- just an approximation and you will never get perfect shading, but the beauty is that most people will never notice :)
Coming from a background in engineering and mathematics, I don't think the statement that 'redirection will always result in pinching' is necessarily true. From the perspective of math, the pinching look comes from the normals being computed and saved on the vertices, and the way modelers handle normal data means that basically, the normals aren't quite right for the desired curve. And no doubt, it may be hard to get the modeler to correctly determine the normals needed to not cause the appearance of a pinched surface.
I really appreciate the methods here to try and force the modeler to avoid the problem to begin with, but I think there should be a method to get the modeler to properly recompute the normals. I think I've seen some videos to compute the proper normals on another mesh of say, a complete cylinder, then transfer the normal data to the mesh with the hole in it, but I'm less of an expert in the quirks of polygon modeling tools and how to get them to behave. But other modeling techniques simply don't have this issue due to how they create normal data around holes or sharp angles.
Hey thanks for sharing your input! I have a mechanical engineering background myself too so I understand what you mean and I did cover this topic more in detail in my workshop...but please understand that goal of the video was to give a small summary on most commonly asked questions regarding pinching, which are always in relation to low geo and redirected edge from the beginners side. Understanding that redirection is not the only way to solve a corner, may help in creating stronger skill in long run.
Hope this brings some context.
@@Elementza I understand, and I agree, it's good to share some quicker, simple solutions and pointers how to avoid getting to this spot to begin with. I was just confused because the statement implied it couldn't be handled any other way. I get frustrated with this same problem, because I know it shouldn't have to be this way, but I struggle to get blender (in my example) to fix the normals properly. Is your workshop in your UA-cam video list? I'll take a look, since I'm curious about other methods. I've seen it fixed in a couple ways, but most were either not using meshes basically (like using SDFs or NURBS), or some method of copying normal data from one thing to another. But it seems like there should be a better way.
Pinching is my sworn enemy.
pinche polys!
Tha't s why i dont like sub d modeling. I would rather perforn boolean intersection on this paneel. Next i'd remesh it or make bevel manually.
There is Ai everywhere, and sub-d models still pinching.
Best piece of advice I ever read regarding Subd modeling: Subd is an approximation and you will never get CAD-like shading if you're using it. I'd like to echo the sentiment that you always need to consider your model's use case, always. If its not seen from an extreme close up, only subd modeler turbo nerds will ever notice any pinching, and if that is your target audience well maybe you want to spend more time on the asset but for the rest, nobody will ever see it.
TLDR Don't sweat small pinching here and there too much, it will distract you from focusing on the big picture and actually finishing your projects.
or keep a copy of the underlying geometry before the cut, and shrink wrap the final outer surface to it, using shrink-wrap modifier
Yea, we do this in blender with shrinkwrap modifier. Idk why he complicates things. Perhaps it even faster do do model in cad, and quickly retopologize it
Yeah but please note that if the fundamental issue is not solved, pinching will still be there regardless of the modifier used (which is the topic of the video).
This topic is covered too on this channel already of you wish to check it in detail
ua-cam.com/video/-lWJuo_uj4A/v-deo.htmlsi=Uq91WPhYGVpD6ano
@@user-cl5mj3rl3e Best way to test this is to try it yourself :)
i didn't get it, whitch issue is not solved? you create guading mesh without any holes, make a coly of guading mesh and make any holes with many support edges, and shrinkwram modifier solve all those pinches which was created by supporting edges. Just try it, Create cylinder, make it as smooth as possible, then create a secon one, and make square hole. After that adding subd modifier and add supporting enges for this hole. It works, without all that booring stuff in terms of tweaking edges back and forth @@Elementza
@@user-cl5mj3rl3e Shrink wrap is not all in one solution for every situation unfortunately. Depending on it to solve minor issues is gonna prove very time consuming on slightly bigger projects. Examples here cover understanding behind pinching, which can be applied in any situation... modlifier or no modifier. Boring or not, what matters is efficiency and results. In the end client cares only that we deliver and on time. How we get there, its all up to us.
Workflow you mentioned, I already covered in older video, shared above. Thanks for sharing your input.
Thanks a lot, but what we can do if we have deep square extrusion in cylinder and we need to save hard edges?)))😂😂😂 after that the talk about AI every day😂😂😂 We can't create hard edges without pinches in 21st century😂😂😂
Bottom line, there's not solution for pinching
A new subdivide paradigm is needed, something new, nor nurbs, or vdb, we are stuck in the 90's, we are just brute-forcing everything with digital sculpting, or higher subdiv levels, two industries pushing in different directions, production and games lol, Production: lets do it "correctly!", wait at which distance is this object going to be from the cam? lol.... Games: Lets go nuts!, cad? YES, polys? YES lotssss its for baking who cares...., Unreal: Hold my beer!, NANITE LOOOL. Something new has to happen.....this is not sustainable. CAD: Alias, SolidWorks, Creo: CAD/Subdiv Hybrids..............Looool, what are we doing.....The era of Edwin Catmull and Jim Clark have to END and something new have to come.
Why does Maya looks so fucking unfun to use