One thing I wanna mention that I actually realized while playing Mannhattan with a couple of friends on advanced as engie, is that while the disposable Mini Sentry is very niche, one amazing sidegrade in later waves is the fact it can give you revenge crits without the need to destroy your sentry, and since it self destructs when out of ammo AND has at least enough health to get a few kills and assists, allows for free frontier justice crits WITHOUT destroying your main sentry
Did you know that the objectivly best upgrade in the game is jump height for heavy? It allows you to do something called "get auto kicked" the moment you buy it!
Manhatten little high truck takes awhile for a heavy to climb and start helping people defend the 2nd story if you're team ain't doing it So it's useful in that situation tho Don't know about rottenberg
9:20 No, nonononono. Mad Milk Syringes ROCK if you use them properly. True, Scout exists, but he isn't omnipresent, especially if his recharge isn't upgraded. No, the proper way to use MMS is as a status tagger. Identify a large target, swap to your syringe gun for a few seconds, and then swap back. The problem I usually see in people criticizing the upgrade is assuming that it enables a hybrid battle-medic playstyle (It doesn't) and use it exclusively in their footage only to be disappointed. Let's go over all your points. -When you have your syringe gun out, you're not healing your main target. True, which is why you should swap to it just to tag a giant, temporarily. Any damage they take in the meantime can be tanked by overheal or healed by the status. Not to mention you'll be swapping right back. -You're not giving teammates overheal, sharing canteens, or building uber. Fair, but given giants are relentlessly focused, keeping everyone alive is just as useful in many situations. And again, it doesn't matter as much when you use your primary sparingly. It takes around two seconds to tag a giant or spray into a group of robots and swap back. You might argue this matters, but I've never observed a major difference. -You're not generating your shield. No, actually. All healing done through MMS contributes to the projectile shield. In some cases I've seen the shield generate from 0 to full in an INSTANT upon tagging a giant. -You're taking the time to provide a status effect scout already can, without it infringing on his core gameplay. It takes roughly the same amount of time for each of them to apply their statuses. In some cases, you can fire a volley and then have a beam on your target before any attacks land, from which you're free to use your shield or canteens. The main strength of them, from my experience, is how cheap they are and how little they intrude on Medic's playstyle, contrary to popular belief. If used properly, they can save the entire team, or the entire round. Thank you for coming to my TED talk, loved the video otherwise, hope to see more.
Agreed on all these points except MMS helping with shield recharge , only because I don't know about this. Other than that , all your points are valid and I'll update after testing it out in MVM
Yeah I was wondering about that. I haven't played much MvM but the clip showed him with the syringes out for several seconds which even I figured was the wrong way to use them. I usually just spray a few on a giant and get right back to healing.
1:58 Weezy: "If there's no light blue outlines on anything, crit res should be off the table" The 14 Buff banner soldiers giving minicrits to the 87 other damaging bots: "Allow us to introduce ourselves"
@@soldier3157that is straight-up misinformation. both the +200% of crits and the +35% of mini-crits use the same crit damage 30% of 35 isn't nearly as impactful as 30% of 200 but it still does something
Another thing: I tend to buy ahead of time since at times the team im in can't hold a position and the robots get their crit buff sooner. It's rare, but I've had some close calls because I invested in crit res. and could take 1 hit before I kill the carrier.
There are also waves with lots of Buff Banner Soldiers that not only mini-crits you - they buff any other bot, meaning mini-crits from everywhere. On such wave even crit res can be a decisive factor, no matter the small difference between regular and mini-crit damage on paper.
Mad milk syringes are so insanely busted. Instead of healing one target with your medigun, you're healing your entire team by a percentage of their damage.
He didn't say mad milk was bad. He was saying that it's the scout's job and having the medic do it is taking away from what the medic should be doing while scout can do his job at the same time.
Mad Milk syringes aren't useless, but as a medic you're way better off sticking to your medigun. That milk healing is nice, but you know what's even better for survivability? The shield. The shield is absolutely critical for both the medic and the rest of the team. Milk healing won't do you any good if your health bar gets shredded by a hoard of heavies or a giant rapid fire crit soldier. Meanwhile with the shield you can just block all that damage. Also, you're not building über or the shield when you're spraying milk syringes. Kritzkrieg über is a powerful thing in MvM that you shouldn't sacrifice for a gimmick. It lets demos plant sticky traps that'll shred giants and disintigrate hoards, help soldiers build their banners faster and makes pyro's and heavy's already high DPS even better. So why would you forgo all those benefits to be a discount scout? And before you say "You're not a medic so you wouldn't get it". I *am* a medic. I'm a medic main, so everything i say comes from experience.
Wowie, I didn't know most of these upgrades were broken and valve just never fixed them. Thanks for doing the research, I'll just have to watch this video again to make sure that I don't mistakenly buy something I shouldn't.
@@SaiKisaragi oh yea except for those. RS does increase blast radius, on direct hit lol. Sentry fire rate capped out at 2 but 1 is enough if you don't want to wrangler. Also crit canteen and wrangler bypass that firing speed bug for some reasons.
While it's true that Mad Milk Syringes is a common noob trap, it's important to note that it can create a lot of value in the hands of a player who knows how MvM Medic is supposed to be played. Your medigun should be out and active 90% of the time, but just like in regular PvP play, sometimes you need to make use of your other toys. Quickly spraying a giant with Mad Milk Syringes basically turns your damage-dealers into their own pocket Medics for a few seconds, freeing you up to do revive a teammate, get out of a bad spot, heal yourself up, or sneak in an Ubersaw swing if you're absolutely desperate for charge. Mad Milk Syringes should be treated like the weapons it's attached to: only for emergencies. But if you like to run the syringe guns in MvM, it's worth picking up. It can do amazing things in clutch moments for a decent price.
yeah if i have 2-3 heavies or power classes fighting a giant, if i shoot the giant, ALL THREE get healing, if there's no scout its a easy choice for medic
I'm glad someone made a video like this, watching this video I've realised how much I was wasting with unnecessary upgrades like Burn Time and Disposable Sentry (which I'm a little sad about, I always found it fun to put in a little corner for a bit more damage from an unexpected angle). Still, very well put together video, great work!
I get mini at the mid point and put it mid way through the map for bonus damage if needed or to stop random stragglers from getting through and back caping
@@amotoz Bots still give me the serotonin from the rapid "dingdingdingding" of damage, thats all I care about. If they were tricked or not, they still take damage
Its still really good on later wave as mention in the video, you can pull aggro/extra dmg. But the main selling point is how cute the minisentry is for me .
I appreciate that this list not only takes the time to say "the first tick of this perk is good, but don't invest more" for certain perks on the list, it explains why. Nice work. 👍
@@Monkey_30000 well it still disgust me with mods Like the rope mod, gman barnacle and stuff I completely remove them sadly which makes me sad because there is no extra challenge but at the same time i can play the game atleast but thanks anyway Edit: well technically u can remove them in half life 2 (cause source) with easy commands but in half life 1 not really even if i kill them their dead bodies make me sick so i tried finding a disappear after death something mod
I found a niche for health regen, on the final wave of hamlet hostility(the 3 tanks) as a pyro you're mainly not gonna kill the robots, so the health regen helps when you have a bunch of flames and rockets coming at you while working the tank.
@@Neometalll True, but either way, having at least a tiny bit is better than nothing, especially since it means that you can still recover in the cases where you take damage but don't get the kill, and there's no nearby medpacks/dispensers to work with (kinda situational, I know, but still convenient regardless)
Its really usefull on Scout aswell. Youll never really kill that much robots, and your main regen source is the dropped blood money. But you have to run around the map quite often and cant allways rely only on the money. Atleast one point in the regen can do wonders.
@@Donkey_Kinsir but you always have overheal as scout. If you're playing support scout you definitely do not need it. Even if you're playing damage scout it doesn't help either.
Think you forgot to mention that airblast force before jungle inferno was an almost mandatory upgrade for pyro. the pyro update changed how airblast works so robots get blasted like 6x farther than they're supposed to, and giants are supposed to be mostly impervious to airblast other than giant scouts who are only a little bit resistant to it (basically holding them in place rather than pushing them back) Sure it's unnecessary nowadays but it used to be necessary with the old airblast.
I find the "Avoid Rocket specialist and Sentry fire speed upgrades past 2 ticks" as most helpful because engie is generally the most important class in MvM and he needs to be as conservative as absolutely possible and with Soldier, avoiding the higher ticks is just a given because rocket specialist ain't cheap
I'm not seeing what's so important. The dispenser is useful but I think the sentry's damage output is really being over-rated, even with all the fire rate upgrades that work and wrangler the sentry is still less damage than a Brass beast with a single tick of fire rate increase. And heavy can benefit from marked-for-death minicrits, sentry cannot. Also kritzkrieg. Sure you can use crit canteens but people don't like blowing money on canteens as routine, you can get minicrits and kritz just for playing the game and invest credits in lasting benefits.
Engineer is a necessity just because of his dispenser. You can be a lazy boi drinking beer all day and no one will bat an eye because your dispenser is up But that aside, ammo canteen is dirt cheap and ammo upgrade can substitute engie. It cost more money sure, but it still get the job done on maps with lower difficulty
Nah, most important one is Sniper... Like the damage he does is ridiculously high and Sniper in mvm isnt hard like in casual, also he can slow down super scout,give mini crit ,destroy Uber medics and even deal damage to tank... Engi dispenser is cool and all, but ammo canteens are cheap and ammo packs are almost everywhere
Something interesting about the Mad Milk Syringes is that the damage your teammates deal onto syringed milked robots actually builds the medic's uber. It's not much but it's still something. I feel this upgrade is extremely helpful on the Overdose since when my team needs to fall back I can use the boost to escape while marking the giants or robot hordes with milk to help my team survive. It's one of those upgrades that's only worth getting once you got the more necessary upgrades for your medigun first.
on mad milk needles, I always use this upgrade because the ability to heal the whole team at once by just taking out the needle gun and firing 5 shots at a giant takes 2 seconds and is generally very worth it, not to mention it gives medic 10 health on hit so you can use it while retreating if your team somehow dies
There was one instance where I honestly think mad milk syringes was the play In the recent MvM update (6 months ago), there was an expert map that was japanese-themed, and the final boss was a giant demoknight. My team went three heavies for damage, a medic and engie for support and a sniper for cleanup. With the constant barrage of small bots and the high damage output of the boss, there was no possible way for the medic to keep up with the heals over the three damage sponges. But that's when I had an idea. Me, being the medic, chose to use mad milk syringes and sprayed the boss for 0.2 seconds every now and then just to keep up the heals before going back to generating krits uber We won the round I made that switch
The biggest use of mad milk syringes i've ever found is when your scout doesnt use it himself, and your heavy has to face off against a crit giant heavy, you can't really outheal it, and if your shield isn't up, you can just use the milk to let heavy heal off of it
@@crabulon_the_perfect_one the chip damage isn't the main focus here. What IS the main focus is the Mad Milk getting applied to the robot, thereby allowing the Heavy and anyone else shooting at the robot(s) a good chance at survival.
1:58 Mini crit damage does still count as crit damage though, so you can by one point ($150) of crit resistance if, say, you want to avoid the mini crit damage of those 14 buff banner soldiers.
The way crit damage resist works makes it much less useful against mini crit than you'd expect. It doesn't apply the resist to all the damage of a critical shot, it applies it ONLY to the extra critical damage. This means for a full crit your resist applies to 2/3 of the damage, but for a minicrit it only applies to about 1/4 of the damage.
@@eduardpeeterlemming yes it's meta against tanks along with the bushwacka if you're sniper, it's really useful and can be an alternative to a demoman/gas passer pyro (able to pick meds/shred tank)
It only reduces the additional mini crit damage though; ie a direct hit rocket is usually 90+32 damage, with two ticks of crit resistance it goes down to 90+16 as opposed to one blast reducing to 68+32. If the soldier is close enough for damage ramp up the difference is greater. You get more for your money from regular resistances. Only exception would be if melee bots have buff banners.
Knockback Rage can be used to separate giant medics from their pocket and stop super scouts. Not something to spam/prioritize, but on the later waves/community mvm it's not a bad upgrade.
Had to re-upload due to the audio being very quiet compared to my usual videos, thought it'd be best for the long term. Sorry to anyone who was negatively affected, in the future I'll make sure things are good to go before making a video public
I guess the entire video comes with a big asterisk, as some of these upgrades can be very useful in certain use cases, but things like rocket specialist are so important for people to know about.
@@petemc5885 Rocket specialist is good on Level 1 already. If you do max it out doe, you can practically clear groups of bots even more quicker and delete Uber meds much more easily. Althrough, that's only if you have money to spare after buying all the other necessary upgrades to stay alive.. and honestly. Getting this upgrade is just "get level 1 or get it to max. Dont keep it at level 2 or anything"
I've always had the opinion that there are genuinely good upgrades that you always, ALWAYS should buy, and then there are the "quirky" upgrades. There's stuff like milk syringes, knockback rage, jump height (on some classes), which sort of entice the player with vaguely cool-sounding names and effects but are either broken or not great and terribly worded; put these alongside upgrades that are straight throwing money in the trash, and you end up with probably half of the upgrades in MvM being a massive detriment to your output without you even realizing. Part of this falls on Valve's shoulders, since it doesn't seem difficult in the slightest to just fix some decade-old bugs, but I personally feel that this whole issue requires a general tune-up of the upgrade menu. There are a couple neat bugs nowadays, like ghost upgrading the Soda Popper and Scottish Resistance, although they usually have such a subtle impact on gameplay that I find it better to just skip over them entirely. Jeez, even the legitimately cool things about upgrades are usually pretty much just a waste of time... Anyways, great video as always, Banna Man Team four to
@@thedastardlylizard5944 True, I didn't think about that. You're also giving up the almighty power of the Mad Milk by equipping it, and the DPS from 5 slightly buffed shots just won't cut it on waves with giant scouts/later waves as a whole compared to the utility of a major chunk of damage returned as health. I do still occasionally use the Winger on early waves, just because it's fun.
Mad milk syringes is useful if your team has a miscalculation and youre on death’s door step. It gives extra health when evading to the rest of your team
Irrelevant upgrade unless your dispenser got destroyed, in which case you suck it up and use one of your instant build canteens for being a noob who lets his building that's not a sentry to go down in MvM.
@@kirayoshikage4057 Until you meet a bad team, and just pound your head into the wall while the team is busy sitting in the corner, leaving you alone to fend off the fifteen spies & 3 sentry busters, until they need ammo.
@@flyingturret208thecannon5 when you meet a bad team you press esc on your keyboard and find a better one. I don't know about you, but I don't have time to waste on idiots who are wasting everyone's time in Mann Up knowing full well that they belong in a bootcamp where nobody will care that they can't even remember how to breathe. It's like being "bad" in competitive, who invited you here? Go back to casual and nobody will tell you what to do.
Guilty Pleasure: I rely so much on that to save the team. They can kill everything while I keep the bomb at safe distance (or blast it into a pit, if I can). Maybe I just always play with the "wrong team" ^^; (also, I wish someone would cover me, the Pyro, when I do that, because I can count on the fingers on my hands, the times I got supported or healed/shielded by a medic, when I was trying to flank the bomb robot to aim the pit)
@@BETMARKonTube Killing the bots is usually more important than to reset the bomb... If its way behind your team, then you can easily do it without a medic, or send the engi to sit on it; if its right in the front line, then stop wasting your time and your teams resources to reset the bomb. Defending a choke is easy, pushing forward is not at all, its simply a bad idea most of the times. Heavy is slow, engi is vulnerable with buildings in his hand, demo can't place stickies trough a wall or spread it out from the end of the choke, sniper have almost 0 sight on the usually wide spread arena before the choke, and sitting in it is an extremely bad idea.
@@BETMARKonTube I'm not saying you are wrong. Its just not ideal. Bootcamp is a mess, and somethimes mann up too. Situationally resetting the bomb is a great idea, but its soo situational that its not recommended below expert knowledge. Everything works in mvm, but first you have to know the rules to break them, soo generally its not recommended to do so. Mvm is filled with wrong teammates. I'm not patient enough to deal with it, so i try to educate them instead.
@@imjustapotatoleavemealone I mean it, I do believe you, because I don't have a team or friends to play with and I always ended up with people who can't keep the bomb away from the base and didn't prioritize the Tanks until it was too late. So I just switched from my favorite class (the Engie) to the Pyro, telling to the teammates: "Focus on the Tank. I can push the Bomb Carrier back". ... a lot of problems could be solved with a bit of communication, but the standard scenario is "they start to chat only when they have to insult someone" (or to spam). So yes. That was my strategy, because it saved the match many times, but as you see, I have no real experience with a working team. That's why I have no reasons to not trust your opinion.
I will die on the hill that a single point of knockback rage is helpful when super scouts are present and your team isn't capable of/consistent in slowing them down or killing them quickly. I also like it for Ghost Town to separate giant medics from heavies. That said, it's not a great buy aside from niche cases, but I like to pick it up mid to late match for the hell of it. Pinning a sentry buster to a wall while the engineer is being revived is a nice feeling once in a while.
On mad milk recharge, don't forget that ammo canteens instantly refill your mad milk, meaning that you can always have mad milk when you need it along with getting all your ammo (and clip) in your scattergun refilled. Also about mad milk syringes, it does actually build Uber, and mad milk heals faster than mediguns anyway.
It has its niche in Ghost Town , I usually use teleport to spawn canteen when I run sniper there , because the tele is always on the ground , and during the downtime your teammates use the 2 way tele. In other missions , yea , pretty much useless
It just sits there. And pleads to god that someone talks about it. Hell, even things like the regens and milk syringes atleast get purchased but tts dosn’t even get bought by newbies
It can work as an emergency "fast" respawn if you're playing a more risky class like spy(or if you're a less experienced player), as opposed to dying and having to spend more than the canteen cost to buy back in (granted it's still relatively useless but it does serve a niche for people/classes that tend to die a lot)
Knockback Rage and Airblast Power are good upgrades that are used badly. They can be instakillers, last resorts, yada, but people spam them in situations where it only annoys or does nothing for his team. They're NOT useless at all, just wrongly used.
I'll get them if my team is bad about getting pushed back so I can use it on a larger bomb carrier to keep it closer to the drop down. Or if I wanna be a twit on mannhattan and airblast all the giants into the shredder.
9:20 its actually not as bad as you think, if you just hotswap to it and hit a giant for just one syringe, you can heal everyone attacking it for a surprising amount of hp. this is especially useful for when your heal target is dying too fast to heal and/or if your scout doesnt have mad milk, is dead or is absent.
@@asxp2433But the thing is Uber and shield are both gained from the syringes, and the scout won't always have his milk ready. Hitting a giant once makes it a cakewalk.
This is stunning- I knew about most of these, but not the one about the minigun. All these years of MVM, and this is the first I've heard of it! Crazy! Have a sub and a great day sir!
I can explain the 'server tick' problem. It's because you can't divide a server tick. High rate of fire weapons, like heavy's mingun and engi's sentry, are tied to server ticks and there's something like 66 ticks a second and the server fires a shot every X server ticks while these guns are active. So float values are invariably going to be rounded and if the adjusted value doesn't affect the rounded number, then the upgrade did nothing. Upgrade example: +10% firing speed $200 Bought once If the firing speed is 4, then the upgraded value would be 4.4. The floor of this value would be 4. (Again, you can't divide a server tick, so rounding is unavoidable.) That means this upgrade is worthless. Upgrade example 2: +10% firing speed $200 Bought 3 times If the firing speed is 4, then the upgraded value would be 5.2. The floor of this value would be 5. That means the upgrade finally did something. So you spent $600 to finally see a difference of one point. NOTE: This would actually be a 25% increase. That's close to the 30% increase you paid for, but you have to buy all ranks before you'll see it. And that's the best simulation of an MVM upgrade bug. So the whole problem stems from classic float errors and due to the nature of server ticks, this is impossible to fix. At least without completely reprogramming how guns shoot.
4:55 It halves the damage output e.g. 108 crits will now be 54, firing speed stays the same however. As for spy, crit on kill on his knives is obsolete cause Diamondback is a thing, that $350 would be better spent on either firing speed or armour penetration; whichever is missed on your upgrade path for your knife.
You see you might’ve had a point. If anyone taking the game seriously ever actually played spy in mvm he basically defines the phrase crippling over specialization.
Coming from an Engineer main who’s getting into MvM more, Metal Regen is a GODSEND. Your sentry won’t always be right next to your dispenser, and since your dispenser needs to be up front with the Heavies, Pyros, Soldiers, and Demos to keep them constantly stocked up, walking over to it to get metal can put you in the line of fire, and potentially get you killed. Metal Regen in later waves can keep all your buildings where they need to be, especially on more ammo scarce parts of the map if you happen to get pushed back.
Exactly, and when it comes to the mini sentry just don’t put it right in front of the enemies. Put it up high where is can absolutely destroy them, and firing speed OMG against a tank I’ve almost solod like 5 tanks in total.
the time it takes for metal regen to give you a usable amount of metal would be better spent just walking for an ammo pack. it takes too long and you're better off increasing max ammo capacity and moving your sentry closer to ammo packs. the only map i can think of where metal could be annoying is Bigrock if you're pushed out of the cave, but that's literally only because I never play it and don't have the ammo spots memorised. can I ask where you're putting your sentry or for a specific example? it shouldn't be near the dispenser, yes, but good spots are usually not too far from an ammo pack so I'm confused why you'd ever need metal regen
I find health regen good on engineer if you need to set up in a spot away from your dispenser where it takes a while to get back from nearby healthpacks, and even the metal upgrade can help top you up sometimes. The health is the main one though, as you aren't usually directly engaging to make use of health on kill, you can use the extra health regen from spam you soak during repairs.
If you are not close to health and ammo you aren't playing Engineer properly, I mean, you whole thing is providing health to your heavy and other big bois
So a few things Disposable mini sentry: the mini sentry isn’t very good at killing things, I use it as a diversion to divert bots fire when the get around certain corners on different maps which gives the team time to move to a fall back position or push the bots back towards the front, this is where the disposable is actually useful but this is usually later waves on most missions (including custom missions) Air blast is almost essential on some custom missions, on most valve missions it’s not really that useful if your team is good at killing things but custom missions tend to throw more giant scouts and upgraded meds at you that can be a problem if you don’t have a sniper as well as some bots you might have to pit because they are tough to kill unless you have a damn good team some missions are even designed so you have to pit the bots because their regen makes killing them conventionally impossible, also when playing air blast is stupid useful because I can push the bomb back as much as I want to compensate for me not being able to kill enough things but most of this applies more to custom maps and missions since the valve maps get kinda boring after a while Mad milk syringes also have their uses, I’d agree on Manhattan they aren’t all that good because you can’t arc your shots from spawn into the front line because the front and spawn both have a roof that would block the syringes. Mad milk syringes are best used to spray a group of giants then switch to your medi gun to keep the heal rate up and for aggressive pyros who might be farther away from you
Mad milk syringes actually build uber. Any health restored from the milk will add a little uber to the medic, so using it with a heavy 1v1ing a high damage giant can give you a lot of uber quickly.
Counterpoint to juggle pyro: If your team is working around a pyro with built knock back, they're applying huge burst damage by focusing on offensive upgrades, knowing they don't need to take as many defensive upgrades because of the decreased pressure from the bots. Taking max knockback and a scorch shot with a cracked fire rate can hold entire waves at the spawn gate.
I've found that on Gear Grinder, mad milk time upgrades are usually much more useful. Due to the lack of medic in the Expert meta, the heavies are much more reliant on milk being on the bots they're gunning down at point blank. Also super scouts can and will carry the bomb at mach 5 unless you slow them.
Hard disagree on milky syringes, milk heals faster than mediguns, scunts are gonna scunt, there's canteen specialist for spamming ubers and shield is a slight crapshoot. It's a cheap "oh shit" upgrade ala slowdown milk. Also hard disagree on minisentry, it's vital as the gunslinger money engie to prevent all 6 busters from spawning at once.
Mad Milk syringes can actually be pretty good if you utilize their slow travel time to shoot preemptively where an enemy is going to be and switch back to your medigun.
This. It also help healing the others since the healing on hit means your attacking allies can get some more breathing room while you arrive with your medigun to heal them. The only tough thing is aiming with it, but otherwise it's not as useless as the video makes it sound. Hell, it can help the Pyros a lot, since as a Medic, you don't want to get as close to the enemies as the Pyros does - so this can be helpful. Again, I am not advocating firing a gun over using the medigun, I'm just saying this isn't as bad an upgrade as the video makes it to be.
Sometimes I just want to try something fun. But I only do this in boot camps don’t worry. I don’t want to be a burden to my team. Also, wouldn’t it be nice if the game told you the full effect, and you know. ACTUALLY WORKED
If I recall, sigsegv says (and I've verified), that the second point of Sentry Firing Speed isn't actually "low priority" as you imply in the video. It's actually a backup in case the first point is affected by the bug. You can only upgrade Sentry Firing Speed once (at least as far as the Wrangler is concerned... I forget if the bug behaves differently for un-Wrangled Sentries). Usually, the first point achieves the maximum effect, but if it doesn't work, you need to get the second point or you're missing out on major DPS: ua-cam.com/video/j2nQkzroNPI/v-deo.html Also, let it be known that I buy Health Regen when playing as The Spy, since the Spy playstyle I espouse involves focusing on giant robots and getting a relatively low number of kills for the amount of damage you do, and Health Regan can reduce the amount of time you waste retreating to grab health packs in situations where Health on Kill doesn't help you. There are also niche situations where The Sniper and The Engineer can benefit from Health Regen if they are stationed far away from any health packs and Dispensers, since they are relatively stationary classes and Health on Kill isn't very good for The Engineer.
@@woop6727i hate that some gibus brass beast and heavy and kritzkrieg medic combo can finish the game with over 200k damage while i use my brain and only get 90 k :(
@@mehmetaktan8527 damage numbers mean nothing, a bad heavy can still outdamage good players just because hes a heavy, a bad engi can still outdamage because his sentry does the work for him and so on
I gotta disagree with Mad Milk Syringes, sure you're not building Uber or a Shield but you're also not constantly popping either of those so there's a lot of time where you don't need them and are just saving them for the big robot half way through. As for healing people, I find that people can heal themselves better than I can with the Medi Gun because each class will be gaining health equal to 60% of their DPS which is just ludicrous in MvM where soldiers can sneeze 11 rockets in 2 seconds and Pyro pretty much always has crits. The only classes that struggle with this is Scout (who heals by money anyway), Spy (People play spy in MvM?) Sniper and Engie (both of whom are far enough back to mitigate damage received and easily reach other healing sources.) Of course the moment you actually need Uber, Shield, Canteen or to heal someone who can't fight as well such as Engie, Sniper or a low health Pyro you immediately switch back to the Medigun but I can't turn down that much healing for only 200 bucks. The only time Mad Milk Syringes falls off is during crit heavy waves where Uber, Shield and Canteens are so important that you don't really get a chance to apply the Mad Milk.
For me, even despite any boosts it gives the team, it's health to you, which means that if you are caught out and need to fight for your life (and Uber charge) you have the survivability from the sheer health Regen from the damage, I play blutsauger for that maximise health on hit so I don't die and can regroup with the team to carry on healing
I can kinda argue the health regen point. But only for one reason. As a medic main I've found it to to be a bit helpful to help keep me alive seeing as i rarely ever have overheal and can practically never get health on kill. Its also a bit of help if my team gets slaughtered and im damaged i can run away while utilizing medic's normal health regen along with the purchased health regen.
If I may be completely blunt... If your team is getting slaughtered, you aren't being effective as a Medic, and should switch. It's most likely because either they don't understand about resistances (especially crit res), or else they aren't doing enough damage. In either case, you aren't being effective, and you should switch to Soldier/Demo.
@@lsdave42 Yes and no. I que with friends and most matches go well with no flaws. But there are a few times stuff gets hectic and i can't keep everyone alive.
when going the bomber plane Soldier strategy (Air strike + base jumper + any melee) , consider upgrading to at least the 2nd tick of the rocket specialist, because the increased blast radius damage really helps when dealing with swarms of enemies.
IMO, there’s almost no reason for me to get two-way teleporters aside from when there’s a Super Scout that somehow manages to sneak past everyone. It’s much too subtle for its own good, too. At the end of a wave, most players I’ve seen would walk back to spawn or kill bind rather than take the teleporter. Sometimes I forget my Engineer bought it which can lead to some… inconveniences.
It’s been a while since this comment so you may know this now, but 2 way is highly dependent on teamwork. If you put it in a place that is easily accessed it can be used for people to get upgrades or canteens mid wave with minimal down time. Spamming crit canteens all wave is very powerful late game and even getting damage upgrades or other things early game it’s very nice if people remember to use it
Quite late but counter argument that isn't apprently obvious for Burn Damage : It actually DOES augment your continuous DPS as Pyro. When you continuously torch an enemy (or robot) with your Flamethrower as Pyro, you do BOTH direct flame damage AND afterburn damage. Which both add to your total DPS. This is part of the reason why the Degreaser is bad at DPSing anything (PvP or PvE) : its hacked down afterburn damage. So while yes, the regular Damage upgrade is the better of the two and should ALWAYS be the first buy alongside Ammo Capacity, buying Burn Damage after those two DOES continue to slightly augment your DPS further up. Which allows you, for example, to build Mmmph! faster or simply DPS giants and tanks down faster as well (since the afterburn also get crit boosted when the Flamethrower is).
I like to use the milk syringes sometimes for prep before running in with the ubersaw to build uber real quick. That way while I'm busy doing that, the team can still heal themselves from the robots I mark.
@@nilin2236 If anyone wants a TLDR of why this is: a minigun fires every 7 ticks normally (think frames) and much like frames you can't do anything between them -10% is 6.3 which rounds to fire every 6 ticks -20% is 5.6 which again rounds to every 6 ticks -30% is 4.9 which rounds up to 5 ticks -40% is 4.2 which rounds down to 4 ticks
imo rocket specialist is great to upgrade when you have reload speed, firing speed, and damage upgraded, because then every shot that hits something direct (aka big swarm of small robots) is like a gas passer explosion
That's cool but then you could also just have someone on your team run the gas passer and not burn credits. Like it's not an overpowered piece of shit anyway...
You already put in about atleast 3k without resistances when maxed out on those upgrades. Most missions do not give you that much money and you can spend it on better upgrades like health on kill and resistances. I don't mind getting 1 tick for giant scouts though/certain situations where the no falloff is pretty helpful
While it's handy yes, if I'm not mistaken while the shot that hits directly doesn't take damage falloff, the explosion radius still does (unless minicrit boosted) so its not that much damage if they even get hit by the larger radius
6:10 I buy disposable sentry on tank waves, then use the gunslinger and a widowmaker. Widowmaker the tank while the other two take care of adds. Since they're minis, you don't have to even remotely worry about upgrades or if they go down. That way you can damage the tank while killing adds, and you don't have to worry about losing the sentry if you do so.
I honestly think disposable sentry is an underrated upgrade. It allows engie to have a bigger area denial, increase his DPS, or still defend while being occupied with sentry busters. Sure, it may be as weak as a mini sentry, but having an extra gun does certainly help.
I've got 34 tours and a lot of this information is really useful. I've always wanted a 6 stack to play the default mvm team and nothing different and hearing that knockback rage reduces damage is crazy + also had no idea sentry firing speed was broken either
Think we need to fact check that tbh, the information he referenced was from research 6 years ago. I thought it had been fixed. In fact about 2 years ago i did a test on Engi with a friend on 666 and we both placed our sentries on opposite sides of the corridor at the start and he had Sentry firing speed maxed and i had 1. He out damaged me considerably. Worth testing again to make sure other factors were not in play
The disposable sentry makes since being on this list low damage and low health however if you pair it with the frontier justice it free crits for days without sacrificing your main one as long as you have the metal
This channel is very poggers I quite like your analysis of the different aspects of MvM, and your editing style really nicely complements the discussion format and your style of speaking! Also, I gotta say, I'm glad to see more coherent discussion of airblast force, bc as an Engie main, holy hell does that get annoying when I just want to get rid of the Sentry Buster, but some rando I matched up with insists he's doing the team a favor, when he could be spending that ammo more effectively!
pro tip: make sure to increase scout's speed and jump it makes him basically sonic and is useful for dodging attacks to inflict your own attacks (also helps you get melee hits in without taking too much damage)
He’s spamming syringes is the problem, if a giant robot shows up just flick some syringes they’re way then switch back to secondary, takes two second and how your team is healing both by madmilk and medi-gun
This video is simply superb. More than exceeded my expectations as an avid MvM expert. Small notes and pointers: 0:45 For the Spies, regen is actually as useful as HoK, and sometimes it fluctuates depending on situation. As you would only target key targets and not mobs as spies, HoK sometimes can be on hold for a while, and sometimes you might not even get kill credit because you're competing with 4-5 other people on damage on a big target. However, I cannot advocate too much for this since I run kunai nowadays. 3:48 - Nothing wrong here. Just applauding your effort of using jump height to phlog cancel. Phlog cancel is simple, but even among other experts I rarely see jump height being made use of. gz. 6:43 - TL;DR: Only one of the points of SFS works. In the format (A/B) where A is unwrangled and B is wrangled, With 0 ticks it will fire every (9/6) ticks for sure, with 1 it will fire every (6/3) most of the time unless server tick rounding is being funny and thus will do nothing, in which case it will be fixed for sure by the 2nd tick, and 3rd one doesn't do anything. Extra: With crit canteen, it will always fire every 3 ticks, regardless of SFS level. Wrangling doesn't change how good 1st and 2nd comparatively are. 7:26 - For the Tomislav, it's the first tick. In the format of 0/1/2/3/4 upgrades of firing speed, for the Tomi it fires every 8/8/7/6/5 ticks, and for all others it's 7/6/6/5/4. 8:44 - I would buy 3 reload before 1 RS first in all situations, but it's not the end of the world if you don't. 9:18 - Not exactly... correct. The main reason is that Medic's shield acts as invuln for the team and there is already more than enough healing to go around usually, therefore Medic's actual priority when maximising effectiveness is to permaboost the best player's(there is little point in boosting others except in specific situations) damage with crits(There is an alternative playstyle, but I won't go into it). Medic in MvM is not really ideally used to heal, so you can add overheal expert to this list. Healing Mastery, however, is actually useful for a list of small reasons that add up to make it impactful enough. The mad milk isn't that great except to just allow heavies and beggar's soldiers to facetank giants, which as you mentioned, a scout even with 0 milk recharge rate should be more than fine to make up for.
As someone who basicly plays Wave 666 nearly everytime i play MvM, i can say that Health Regen is a NEEDED upgrade, because without it even with ALL my resistances AND HOK MAXED, i still get sent to the shadow realm of near-death red health, especially since 9 times out of 10 im going to choose Phlog+Gas Passer Pyro
Plus, health sources aren't effective as much as WeezyTF2 says. 1) Not having a Medic is more effective in certain situations, like in 666. Better attack > better defence, always. And having a Medic lowers the attack output of a team. 2) In many hard waves, dispensers get destroyed easily because people use it when their health is low and many players still do that even if they are going to be attacked right on there. 3) Health packs isn't effective on MVM just because we need to wait for them after someone takes them.
5:06 Also, its not like a shout effect, thats in front of you in a cone shape, like the shouts in skyrim. You actually need to be shooting at, and hitting a robot for it to be pushed back. If you miss, no pushback.
Okay I must say something about the Mad milk syringes the only real use you should have for this upgrade is for mid-to-late waves because of its inexpensive cost and use it as a sorta my team is dead and I need to run away tool.
As a medic main, I say that the one of the only reasons to pull out your syringe gun is if everyone else is dead (like if they don't move away from a sentry buster) or if you desperately need health. Don't be a battle medic, folks, the brass beast heavy will outperform you every time
Well no, if you play on: bigrock, coaltown, ghost town and rottenburg - airblast force is a very good and useful updrade, especially if you know how to launch robots up. If you play on mannhattan it becomes unbelievable useful just because you can send robots to this insta-killing machine from A entrance by a single click. Also, it only costs 100 credits per 100% of airblast power, and if you don't sure in your team, or if you are playing ghost town, you should buy this
That's from the perspective of a player that know the basics of MvM, but a newbie will spam the airblast button every time they can even when there's no need to. So it's more like PTSD of players got trolled by a random 1 tour pyro that upgrade this and keep airblasting the giants and messed up demo's stickytraps and messed up the teams aim to destroy the robots.
tbf it's easy to get like that in an old game with a mode that relies a lot on cooperation and gamesense, like castle crashers insane mode or bl1/bl2/bl3 raids/takedowns
6:34 I swear the guides I looked at like 7 years ago used to say two way teleporter was a waste of credits unless I'm misremembering. Maybe the meta changed because it helps people complete tours faster.
It was called a waste exactly because of that. But 2-way is still generally good when a random scout bot somehow makes it to spawn and you have no effective way to run back there.
@@Nate14567 Why would you use 2 tp to teleport back for shop when you can killbind? Normally when you wanna buy from the shop it's the end of the round so you just killbind
I'd actually like to make a correction to the Sentry Firing Speed notion, you're kind of right and kind of wrong on how it works. The first pip applies normally as you said, however the 2nd pip applies when you pull out the wrangler (the wrangler increases the base firing speed of the sentry and the 2nd pip stacks on top of it) the 3rd however still does nothing. So if you like to use the wrangler to help focus down big bots and/or pull aggro from giant blackbox soldiers (sense they dont heal when they hit the sentry) the 2nd pip can really come in handy for tearing them down. But if you don't use the wranlger at all or very seldomly, it isn't as worth it and is best used on other upgrades.
![[TF2] Every Class's BEST MvM Upgrade](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AgJiU9xTg0g/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Every Class's BEST MvM Upgrade](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] Underrated MvM Upgrades](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ftoJelmTtaA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Dealing With Tanks in MvM](/img/n.gif)
One thing I wanna mention that I actually realized while playing Mannhattan with a couple of friends on advanced as engie, is that while the disposable Mini Sentry is very niche, one amazing sidegrade in later waves is the fact it can give you revenge crits without the need to destroy your sentry, and since it self destructs when out of ammo AND has at least enough health to get a few kills and assists, allows for free frontier justice crits WITHOUT destroying your main sentry
Main reason why I use it other than assisting my main sentry
Someone who actually knows what they're doing without dismissing. I salute you, fellow engy!
*cough cough* MANNHATTEN
@@mistykitchen9515 I am so sorry for my travesty of a post, fixed
@@predator5775 :D
Did you know that the objectivly best upgrade in the game is jump height for heavy? It allows you to do something called "get auto kicked" the moment you buy it!
Manhatten little high truck takes awhile for a heavy to climb and start helping people defend the 2nd story if you're team ain't doing it
So it's useful in that situation tho
Don't know about rottenberg
i take it sometimes, lets you reach silly places and get more movement out of revving up
@@deyontemyers4109Mannhattan*
@@BloodOfTartaros ....AAAAHHHHHHHH
@@BloodOfTartaros I've never seen a comment section so littered with horrible spelling
9:20
No, nonononono. Mad Milk Syringes ROCK if you use them properly. True, Scout exists, but he isn't omnipresent, especially if his recharge isn't upgraded. No, the proper way to use MMS is as a status tagger.
Identify a large target, swap to your syringe gun for a few seconds, and then swap back. The problem I usually see in people criticizing the upgrade is assuming that it enables a hybrid battle-medic playstyle (It doesn't) and use it exclusively in their footage only to be disappointed. Let's go over all your points.
-When you have your syringe gun out, you're not healing your main target.
True, which is why you should swap to it just to tag a giant, temporarily. Any damage they take in the meantime can be tanked by overheal or healed by the status. Not to mention you'll be swapping right back.
-You're not giving teammates overheal, sharing canteens, or building uber.
Fair, but given giants are relentlessly focused, keeping everyone alive is just as useful in many situations. And again, it doesn't matter as much when you use your primary sparingly. It takes around two seconds to tag a giant or spray into a group of robots and swap back. You might argue this matters, but I've never observed a major difference.
-You're not generating your shield.
No, actually. All healing done through MMS contributes to the projectile shield. In some cases I've seen the shield generate from 0 to full in an INSTANT upon tagging a giant.
-You're taking the time to provide a status effect scout already can, without it infringing on his core gameplay.
It takes roughly the same amount of time for each of them to apply their statuses. In some cases, you can fire a volley and then have a beam on your target before any attacks land, from which you're free to use your shield or canteens.
The main strength of them, from my experience, is how cheap they are and how little they intrude on Medic's playstyle, contrary to popular belief. If used properly, they can save the entire team, or the entire round.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk, loved the video otherwise, hope to see more.
legit was gonna say this xd
You only really need to hit one syringe then switch back on a giant or spray a wave then switch both don't take that much time.
@@ElHarmonyV Duration increases with each hit. Not enough to make sustained fire viable, but enough to justify shooting 5 needles at a time.
Agreed on all these points except MMS helping with shield recharge , only because I don't know about this.
Other than that , all your points are valid and I'll update after testing it out in MVM
Yeah I was wondering about that. I haven't played much MvM but the clip showed him with the syringes out for several seconds which even I figured was the wrong way to use them. I usually just spray a few on a giant and get right back to healing.
1:58
Weezy: "If there's no light blue outlines on anything, crit res should be off the table"
The 14 Buff banner soldiers giving minicrits to the 87 other damaging bots: "Allow us to introduce ourselves"
Crit Res does apply to minicrits yeah?
@@RedShocktrooperRSTit doesnt
@@soldier3157 damn.
Crit resistance actually does help with mini crit damage, it also removes being marked for death on any weapon that applies it
@@soldier3157that is straight-up misinformation. both the +200% of crits and the +35% of mini-crits use the same crit damage 30% of 35 isn't nearly as impactful as 30% of 200 but it still does something
Minor detail: waves with flare pyros *can* benefit from crit res, even with no crit boosted bots
Another thing: I tend to buy ahead of time since at times the team im in can't hold a position and the robots get their crit buff sooner. It's rare, but I've had some close calls because I invested in crit res. and could take 1 hit before I kill the carrier.
There are also waves with lots of Buff Banner Soldiers that not only mini-crits you - they buff any other bot, meaning mini-crits from everywhere. On such wave even crit res can be a decisive factor, no matter the small difference between regular and mini-crit damage on paper.
@@mauser98kar that's very good to know, thanks for sharing
Mad milk syringes are so insanely busted. Instead of healing one target with your medigun, you're healing your entire team by a percentage of their damage.
He didn't say mad milk was bad. He was saying that it's the scout's job and having the medic do it is taking away from what the medic should be doing while scout can do his job at the same time.
Mad Milk syringes aren't useless, but as a medic you're way better off sticking to your medigun. That milk healing is nice, but you know what's even better for survivability? The shield. The shield is absolutely critical for both the medic and the rest of the team. Milk healing won't do you any good if your health bar gets shredded by a hoard of heavies or a giant rapid fire crit soldier. Meanwhile with the shield you can just block all that damage.
Also, you're not building über or the shield when you're spraying milk syringes. Kritzkrieg über is a powerful thing in MvM that you shouldn't sacrifice for a gimmick. It lets demos plant sticky traps that'll shred giants and disintigrate hoards, help soldiers build their banners faster and makes pyro's and heavy's already high DPS even better. So why would you forgo all those benefits to be a discount scout?
And before you say "You're not a medic so you wouldn't get it". I *am* a medic. I'm a medic main, so everything i say comes from experience.
@@722lovemonkey milk healing builds shield
@@722lovemonkey Plus it takes the same amount of time for both to apply the effects
@@722lovemonkey milk healing builds shield
Wowie, I didn't know most of these upgrades were broken and valve just never fixed them. Thanks for doing the research, I'll just have to watch this video again to make sure that I don't mistakenly buy something I shouldn't.
it's actually quite simple. If it doesn't help you sustain and do more dmg, it's mostly trash. MVM is pretty much a big DPS check.
@@btfo420 I always got full rocket specialist thinking that it increased blast radius, and I got sentry fire rate thinking that it fucking worked lol
@@SaiKisaragi oh yea except for those. RS does increase blast radius, on direct hit lol.
Sentry fire rate capped out at 2 but 1 is enough if you don't want to wrangler. Also crit canteen and wrangler bypass that firing speed bug for some reasons.
Same with me.
While it's true that Mad Milk Syringes is a common noob trap, it's important to note that it can create a lot of value in the hands of a player who knows how MvM Medic is supposed to be played. Your medigun should be out and active 90% of the time, but just like in regular PvP play, sometimes you need to make use of your other toys. Quickly spraying a giant with Mad Milk Syringes basically turns your damage-dealers into their own pocket Medics for a few seconds, freeing you up to do revive a teammate, get out of a bad spot, heal yourself up, or sneak in an Ubersaw swing if you're absolutely desperate for charge.
Mad Milk Syringes should be treated like the weapons it's attached to: only for emergencies. But if you like to run the syringe guns in MvM, it's worth picking up. It can do amazing things in clutch moments for a decent price.
MvM sweats whenever medic stops gaining uber for 0.0002 nanoseconds to apply a useful effect 😡
Frfr
yeah if i have 2-3 heavies or power classes fighting a giant, if i shoot the giant, ALL THREE get healing, if there's no scout its a easy choice for medic
It's not usefull most of the time cuz of mad milk on scout wich is just 10 time better
What’s the point of this comment?
@@theadministrator.6632 Da funny
I'm glad someone made a video like this, watching this video I've realised how much I was wasting with unnecessary upgrades like Burn Time and Disposable Sentry (which I'm a little sad about, I always found it fun to put in a little corner for a bit more damage from an unexpected angle). Still, very well put together video, great work!
I get mini at the mid point and put it mid way through the map for bonus damage if needed or to stop random stragglers from getting through and back caping
Unexpeted angle? They're bots
@@amotoz Bots still give me the serotonin from the rapid "dingdingdingding" of damage, thats all I care about. If they were tricked or not, they still take damage
@@lawsonhovind7335 You sir are the definition of based.
Its still really good on later wave as mention in the video, you can pull aggro/extra dmg. But the main selling point is how cute the minisentry is for me .
"Never ever buy it in any circumstance"
Me, in a MvM infinite cash server: "But it feels good maxing out every upgrade ;c "
Whats the ip for it, i think its fun
Ip?
Ip on my pants lol gottem
drink it
i onc ejoined one of those servers without realizing and i was so fucking confused
I appreciate that this list not only takes the time to say "the first tick of this perk is good, but don't invest more" for certain perks on the list, it explains why. Nice work. 👍
i like how minigun speed is just, the second tick,
always buy from tick 1 to tick 3, never stay on tick 2
"Nobody ever looks up"
Fun fact: that's why we have the Barnacles in Half-Life
It's a good thing you dont have to look up for those enemies.
Those disgust me and the main reason why i cant complete half life T_T
@@ChosenPlayer100
Why? Can't stand to die hentai style?
@@ChosenPlayer100 Mod the game to replace them for something else
@@Monkey_30000 well it still disgust me with mods
Like the rope mod, gman barnacle and stuff
I completely remove them sadly which makes me sad because there is no extra challenge but at the same time i can play the game atleast but thanks anyway
Edit: well technically u can remove them in half life 2 (cause source) with easy commands but in half life 1 not really even if i kill them their dead bodies make me sick so i tried finding a disappear after death something mod
I found a niche for health regen, on the final wave of hamlet hostility(the 3 tanks) as a pyro you're mainly not gonna kill the robots, so the health regen helps when you have a bunch of flames and rockets coming at you while working the tank.
It's useful for spy from my experience
But robots will be close around the tanks (unless for some reason you let them get inside the city) and with hp on kill you'll still be better.
@@Neometalll True, but either way, having at least a tiny bit is better than nothing, especially since it means that you can still recover in the cases where you take damage but don't get the kill, and there's no nearby medpacks/dispensers to work with (kinda situational, I know, but still convenient regardless)
Its really usefull on Scout aswell.
Youll never really kill that much robots, and your main regen source is the dropped blood money.
But you have to run around the map quite often and cant allways rely only on the money.
Atleast one point in the regen can do wonders.
@@Donkey_Kinsir but you always have overheal as scout. If you're playing support scout you definitely do not need it. Even if you're playing damage scout it doesn't help either.
2:00 you can still use crit resistance there since mini-crit damage by buff banner soldiers can be reduced with that upgrade too
Exactly, it works well against flare pyros too.
Crit resistance also helps with things like sniper headshits, and flare gun and its variants crits/minicrits
@@cytosine6870 the robot sniper can headshot?
@@MrLeonardord yeah, notice sometimes you take 150 damage (assuming no resistances) from a sniper shot and hear the crit sound
@@cytosine6870 I thought sniper bots' headshots are impossible because of their programming?
Think you forgot to mention that airblast force before jungle inferno was an almost mandatory upgrade for pyro. the pyro update changed how airblast works so robots get blasted like 6x farther than they're supposed to, and giants are supposed to be mostly impervious to airblast other than giant scouts who are only a little bit resistant to it (basically holding them in place rather than pushing them back) Sure it's unnecessary nowadays but it used to be necessary with the old airblast.
Its ok grandpa, it been 6 years since the update.
Dude. Yesterday a friend of mine was airblasting giants into death pits. It's a viable tactics!
@@MrRAGE-md5rj what happen with the money?
@@perejilseven1769 money that enters void plains is instantly collected
I find the "Avoid Rocket specialist and Sentry fire speed upgrades past 2 ticks" as most helpful because engie is generally the most important class in MvM and he needs to be as conservative as absolutely possible and with Soldier, avoiding the higher ticks is just a given because rocket specialist ain't cheap
Without engineer, a team falls apart after 10 minutes as the ammo and area of denial is so useful
I'm not seeing what's so important. The dispenser is useful but I think the sentry's damage output is really being over-rated, even with all the fire rate upgrades that work and wrangler the sentry is still less damage than a Brass beast with a single tick of fire rate increase. And heavy can benefit from marked-for-death minicrits, sentry cannot. Also kritzkrieg.
Sure you can use crit canteens but people don't like blowing money on canteens as routine, you can get minicrits and kritz just for playing the game and invest credits in lasting benefits.
Engineer is a necessity just because of his dispenser. You can be a lazy boi drinking beer all day and no one will bat an eye because your dispenser is up
But that aside, ammo canteen is dirt cheap and ammo upgrade can substitute engie. It cost more money sure, but it still get the job done on maps with lower difficulty
So it's worth to buy 1 or 2 ticks of that upgrade.
Nah, most important one is Sniper... Like the damage he does is ridiculously high and Sniper in mvm isnt hard like in casual, also he can slow down super scout,give mini crit ,destroy Uber medics and even deal damage to tank...
Engi dispenser is cool and all, but ammo canteens are cheap and ammo packs are almost everywhere
Something interesting about the Mad Milk Syringes is that the damage your teammates deal onto syringed milked robots actually builds the medic's uber. It's not much but it's still something. I feel this upgrade is extremely helpful on the Overdose since when my team needs to fall back I can use the boost to escape while marking the giants or robot hordes with milk to help my team survive. It's one of those upgrades that's only worth getting once you got the more necessary upgrades for your medigun first.
that is amazing.
on mad milk needles, I always use this upgrade because the ability to heal the whole team at once by just taking out the needle gun and firing 5 shots at a giant takes 2 seconds and is generally very worth it, not to mention it gives medic 10 health on hit so you can use it while retreating if your team somehow dies
There was one instance where I honestly think mad milk syringes was the play
In the recent MvM update (6 months ago), there was an expert map that was japanese-themed, and the final boss was a giant demoknight. My team went three heavies for damage, a medic and engie for support and a sniper for cleanup. With the constant barrage of small bots and the high damage output of the boss, there was no possible way for the medic to keep up with the heals over the three damage sponges. But that's when I had an idea. Me, being the medic, chose to use mad milk syringes and sprayed the boss for 0.2 seconds every now and then just to keep up the heals before going back to generating krits uber
We won the round I made that switch
Yeah, stopping healing for one second to apply madmilk is 100% worth it. It's team heal. This guy is just wrong on this one.
The disposable sentry is good when paired with frontier justice, gets a few kills then dies and gives you consistent amounts of crits
yeah especailly if you can keep building it super fast and always have crits
Yeah but that requires using the frontier justice which sucks compared to other engie weapons in mvm like the rescue ranger
It's useful to cover alternate routes like ghost town, when everyone focus on the main path but let a scout sneak through carrying the bomb.
Disposable sentry is good for removing engineers and flanking scouts that are too fast
@@breadmilkYTWell i dont have the rescue ranger and i don complain about it
The biggest use of mad milk syringes i've ever found is when your scout doesnt use it himself, and your heavy has to face off against a crit giant heavy, you can't really outheal it, and if your shield isn't up, you can just use the milk to let heavy heal off of it
Plus you, the Medic, are assisting in not just healing the Heavy, but you're also dealing chip damage alongside that.
thats a very specific scenario
@@christianwright7581 but your DPS as a medic will probably be inferior to the damage gained by keeping your heavy alive for a few more seconds
@@crabulon_the_perfect_one the chip damage isn't the main focus here. What IS the main focus is the Mad Milk getting applied to the robot, thereby allowing the Heavy and anyone else shooting at the robot(s) a good chance at survival.
@@christianwright7581 so why would you mention the chip damage
1:58 Mini crit damage does still count as crit damage though, so you can by one point ($150) of crit resistance if, say, you want to avoid the mini crit damage of those 14 buff banner soldiers.
Also keep in mind things like Demoknights and Flare Pyros don't need a blue outline to do crit damage
The way crit damage resist works makes it much less useful against mini crit than you'd expect. It doesn't apply the resist to all the damage of a critical shot, it applies it ONLY to the extra critical damage. This means for a full crit your resist applies to 2/3 of the damage, but for a minicrit it only applies to about 1/4 of the damage.
Is cleaner carbine META in mvm?
@@eduardpeeterlemming yes it's meta against tanks along with the bushwacka if you're sniper, it's really useful and can be an alternative to a demoman/gas passer pyro (able to pick meds/shred tank)
It only reduces the additional mini crit damage though; ie a direct hit rocket is usually 90+32 damage, with two ticks of crit resistance it goes down to 90+16 as opposed to one blast reducing to 68+32. If the soldier is close enough for damage ramp up the difference is greater. You get more for your money from regular resistances. Only exception would be if melee bots have buff banners.
Knockback Rage can be used to separate giant medics from their pocket and stop super scouts.
Not something to spam/prioritize, but on the later waves/community mvm it's not a bad upgrade.
Had to re-upload due to the audio being very quiet compared to my usual videos, thought it'd be best for the long term. Sorry to anyone who was negatively affected, in the future I'll make sure things are good to go before making a video public
Ok
Oh thanks
thanks for the notice, and u make gud vids keep it up :)
It so happened that I played with you (My nickname is Mr.Хэви, I also told you on the micro: I love you)
Knockbage rage
I guess the entire video comes with a big asterisk, as some of these upgrades can be very useful in certain use cases, but things like rocket specialist are so important for people to know about.
I mean some are literally bugged and provide 0 tangible benefit.
@@dannybeane2069 yeah, hence the “some of” and the comment about rocket specialist
@@petemc5885 Rocket specialist is good on Level 1 already. If you do max it out doe, you can practically clear groups of bots even more quicker and delete Uber meds much more easily. Althrough, that's only if you have money to spare after buying all the other necessary upgrades to stay alive.. and honestly. Getting this upgrade is just "get level 1 or get it to max. Dont keep it at level 2 or anything"
I've always had the opinion that there are genuinely good upgrades that you always, ALWAYS should buy, and then there are the "quirky" upgrades. There's stuff like milk syringes, knockback rage, jump height (on some classes), which sort of entice the player with vaguely cool-sounding names and effects but are either broken or not great and terribly worded; put these alongside upgrades that are straight throwing money in the trash, and you end up with probably half of the upgrades in MvM being a massive detriment to your output without you even realizing. Part of this falls on Valve's shoulders, since it doesn't seem difficult in the slightest to just fix some decade-old bugs, but I personally feel that this whole issue requires a general tune-up of the upgrade menu. There are a couple neat bugs nowadays, like ghost upgrading the Soda Popper and Scottish Resistance, although they usually have such a subtle impact on gameplay that I find it better to just skip over them entirely. Jeez, even the legitimately cool things about upgrades are usually pretty much just a waste of time...
Anyways, great video as always, Banna Man Team four to
Sadly Scout's winger actually is worse with jump height. It does like 20 fall damage when you double jump. It IS really good wi speed though
@@thedastardlylizard5944 True, I didn't think about that. You're also giving up the almighty power of the Mad Milk by equipping it, and the DPS from 5 slightly buffed shots just won't cut it on waves with giant scouts/later waves as a whole compared to the utility of a major chunk of damage returned as health. I do still occasionally use the Winger on early waves, just because it's fun.
my brother maxes out jump height on heavy for no reason at all.
Milk syringes are good, though.
That, and knockback rage can be used to push robots carrying the bomb out of bounds, causing the bomb reset
The fun part about getting the +60% fire rate on Soda is stunning your team by getting max tank damage as Scout.
0:34 You are no longer a small youtuber but still, this channel is very poggers
Sub if Ur pp big
Also this channel is very Poggers
@@totolias2010 I subbed but I don’t want my pp to be big
Mad milk syringes is useful if your team has a miscalculation and youre on death’s door step. It gives extra health when evading to the rest of your team
His counter to this would literally be get a better team
@@armoredman10 Not always possible. Not everyone is a god-tier TF2 veteran.
@@someoneelse4811 True. Sometimes you gotta get things like airblast force when the average tour count is low and you're going to have to carry a bit.
@@mariustan9275I mean even high tours are smooth brains too sometimes 😂
it's for a niche circumstance vs giants, a heavy heals way more with mad milk than a medic could ever heal, even with a max-upgraded quickfix
I remember thinking that metal regeneration increased the metal production of a dispenser, that would be a cool upgrade
Irrelevant upgrade unless your dispenser got destroyed, in which case you suck it up and use one of your instant build canteens for being a noob who lets his building that's not a sentry to go down in MvM.
@@kirayoshikage4057 Until you meet a bad team, and just pound your head into the wall while the team is busy sitting in the corner, leaving you alone to fend off the fifteen spies & 3 sentry busters, until they need ammo.
@@flyingturret208thecannon5 when you meet a bad team you press esc on your keyboard and find a better one. I don't know about you, but I don't have time to waste on idiots who are wasting everyone's time in Mann Up knowing full well that they belong in a bootcamp where nobody will care that they can't even remember how to breathe.
It's like being "bad" in competitive, who invited you here? Go back to casual and nobody will tell you what to do.
@@kirayoshikage4057 dawg, it aint that complicated
@@argonhammer9352same pfp duel?
if you airblast the bomb robot into a pit it resets the bomb at the beginning, this can be very helpful
Guilty Pleasure: I rely so much on that to save the team.
They can kill everything while I keep the bomb at safe distance (or blast it into a pit, if I can).
Maybe I just always play with the "wrong team" ^^;
(also, I wish someone would cover me, the Pyro, when I do that, because I can count on the fingers on my hands, the times I got supported or healed/shielded by a medic, when I was trying to flank the bomb robot to aim the pit)
@@BETMARKonTube Killing the bots is usually more important than to reset the bomb... If its way behind your team, then you can easily do it without a medic, or send the engi to sit on it; if its right in the front line, then stop wasting your time and your teams resources to reset the bomb. Defending a choke is easy, pushing forward is not at all, its simply a bad idea most of the times. Heavy is slow, engi is vulnerable with buildings in his hand, demo can't place stickies trough a wall or spread it out from the end of the choke, sniper have almost 0 sight on the usually wide spread arena before the choke, and sitting in it is an extremely bad idea.
@@imjustapotatoleavemealone
I have no reasons to not believe you, so I guess I always find the wrong teammates.
@@BETMARKonTube I'm not saying you are wrong. Its just not ideal. Bootcamp is a mess, and somethimes mann up too. Situationally resetting the bomb is a great idea, but its soo situational that its not recommended below expert knowledge. Everything works in mvm, but first you have to know the rules to break them, soo generally its not recommended to do so. Mvm is filled with wrong teammates. I'm not patient enough to deal with it, so i try to educate them instead.
@@imjustapotatoleavemealone
I mean it, I do believe you, because I don't have a team or friends to play with and I always ended up with people who can't keep the bomb away from the base and didn't prioritize the Tanks until it was too late.
So I just switched from my favorite class (the Engie) to the Pyro, telling to the teammates: "Focus on the Tank. I can push the Bomb Carrier back".
... a lot of problems could be solved with a bit of communication, but the standard scenario is "they start to chat only when they have to insult someone" (or to spam).
So yes.
That was my strategy, because it saved the match many times, but as you see, I have no real experience with a working team.
That's why I have no reasons to not trust your opinion.
I will die on the hill that a single point of knockback rage is helpful when super scouts are present and your team isn't capable of/consistent in slowing them down or killing them quickly. I also like it for Ghost Town to separate giant medics from heavies. That said, it's not a great buy aside from niche cases, but I like to pick it up mid to late match for the hell of it. Pinning a sentry buster to a wall while the engineer is being revived is a nice feeling once in a while.
On mad milk recharge, don't forget that ammo canteens instantly refill your mad milk, meaning that you can always have mad milk when you need it along with getting all your ammo (and clip) in your scattergun refilled. Also about mad milk syringes, it does actually build Uber, and mad milk heals faster than mediguns anyway.
Can we all agree the “teleport to spawn” canteen is basically useless.
It has its niche in Ghost Town , I usually use teleport to spawn canteen when I run sniper there , because the tele is always on the ground , and during the downtime your teammates use the 2 way tele.
In other missions , yea , pretty much useless
It just sits there. And pleads to god that someone talks about it. Hell, even things like the regens and milk syringes atleast get purchased but tts dosn’t even get bought by newbies
It can work as an emergency "fast" respawn if you're playing a more risky class like spy(or if you're a less experienced player), as opposed to dying and having to spend more than the canteen cost to buy back in (granted it's still relatively useless but it does serve a niche for people/classes that tend to die a lot)
@@Raxarion why not killbind
My teleport to spawn canteen is called killbind
Knockback Rage and Airblast Power are good upgrades that are used badly. They can be instakillers, last resorts, yada, but people spam them in situations where it only annoys or does nothing for his team. They're NOT useless at all, just wrongly used.
Like what he said in the video?
@@spookyperson7096 ye, just felt like pointing it out
I use Knockback since it helps me build some distance with giants and Sentry Busters in case Engi is upgrading.
I'll get them if my team is bad about getting pushed back so I can use it on a larger bomb carrier to keep it closer to the drop down. Or if I wanna be a twit on mannhattan and airblast all the giants into the shredder.
Well rage is depleted if you die so I kinda understand why ppl use it too early unlike gas passer that doesnt care if you died or not
This channel is AMAZING. Love your vids
Hey dude I remember playing basically an entire tour with you! Shit was a blast man, and keep up the good work with these vids!
9:20 its actually not as bad as you think, if you just hotswap to it and hit a giant for just one syringe, you can heal everyone attacking it for a surprising amount of hp. this is especially useful for when your heal target is dying too fast to heal and/or if your scout doesnt have mad milk, is dead or is absent.
@SpizeNice i forgot about this
@@asxp2433But the thing is Uber and shield are both gained from the syringes, and the scout won't always have his milk ready. Hitting a giant once makes it a cakewalk.
This is stunning- I knew about most of these, but not the one about the minigun. All these years of MVM, and this is the first I've heard of it! Crazy!
Have a sub and a great day sir!
I can explain the 'server tick' problem. It's because you can't divide a server tick.
High rate of fire weapons, like heavy's mingun and engi's sentry, are tied to server ticks and there's something like 66 ticks a second and the server fires a shot every X server ticks while these guns are active.
So float values are invariably going to be rounded and if the adjusted value doesn't affect the rounded number, then the upgrade did nothing.
Upgrade example:
+10% firing speed
$200
Bought once
If the firing speed is 4, then the upgraded value would be 4.4. The floor of this value would be 4. (Again, you can't divide a server tick, so rounding is unavoidable.) That means this upgrade is worthless.
Upgrade example 2:
+10% firing speed
$200
Bought 3 times
If the firing speed is 4, then the upgraded value would be 5.2. The floor of this value would be 5. That means the upgrade finally did something. So you spent $600 to finally see a difference of one point.
NOTE: This would actually be a 25% increase. That's close to the 30% increase you paid for, but you have to buy all ranks before you'll see it. And that's the best simulation of an MVM upgrade bug.
So the whole problem stems from classic float errors and due to the nature of server ticks, this is impossible to fix. At least without completely reprogramming how guns shoot.
good comment
"it's impossilbe to fix" they can literally adjust the upgrade numbers so the float error is nonissue.
I dont even play TF2 anymore but love seeing more nuanced content like this lol keep it up
same
Wonderful video man! I'm really glad I've binge watched all your videos. You make lovely content and I respect it. Keep it up!
4:55
It halves the damage output e.g. 108 crits will now be 54, firing speed stays the same however.
As for spy, crit on kill on his knives is obsolete cause Diamondback is a thing, that $350 would be better spent on either firing speed or armour penetration; whichever is missed on your upgrade path for your knife.
I heard crit on kill is useless since backstabs don't get a dmg boost from this and boosting butterknife dmg is pointless
@@danielsurvivor1372 You're right that it's pointless for the knife but it's intended for the revolver.
except if you use the L'etrange, which is I usually run in MvM. I can't let go of getting cloak and kill some robots at the same time
@@gabrielraynard8056 That's also a good one if you're in need for extra duration and/or for cloak poking. Pairs well with Big Earner.
You see you might’ve had a point. If anyone taking the game seriously ever actually played spy in mvm he basically defines the phrase crippling over specialization.
Coming from an Engineer main who’s getting into MvM more, Metal Regen is a GODSEND. Your sentry won’t always be right next to your dispenser, and since your dispenser needs to be up front with the Heavies, Pyros, Soldiers, and Demos to keep them constantly stocked up, walking over to it to get metal can put you in the line of fire, and potentially get you killed. Metal Regen in later waves can keep all your buildings where they need to be, especially on more ammo scarce parts of the map if you happen to get pushed back.
Exactly, and when it comes to the mini sentry just don’t put it right in front of the enemies. Put it up high where is can absolutely destroy them, and firing speed OMG against a tank I’ve almost solod like 5 tanks in total.
the time it takes for metal regen to give you a usable amount of metal would be better spent just walking for an ammo pack. it takes too long and you're better off increasing max ammo capacity and moving your sentry closer to ammo packs. the only map i can think of where metal could be annoying is Bigrock if you're pushed out of the cave, but that's literally only because I never play it and don't have the ammo spots memorised.
can I ask where you're putting your sentry or for a specific example? it shouldn't be near the dispenser, yes, but good spots are usually not too far from an ammo pack so I'm confused why you'd ever need metal regen
I find health regen good on engineer if you need to set up in a spot away from your dispenser where it takes a while to get back from nearby healthpacks, and even the metal upgrade can help top you up sometimes. The health is the main one though, as you aren't usually directly engaging to make use of health on kill, you can use the extra health regen from spam you soak during repairs.
If you are not close to health and ammo you aren't playing Engineer properly, I mean, you whole thing is providing health to your heavy and other big bois
So a few things
Disposable mini sentry: the mini sentry isn’t very good at killing things, I use it as a diversion to divert bots fire when the get around certain corners on different maps which gives the team time to move to a fall back position or push the bots back towards the front, this is where the disposable is actually useful but this is usually later waves on most missions (including custom missions)
Air blast is almost essential on some custom missions, on most valve missions it’s not really that useful if your team is good at killing things but custom missions tend to throw more giant scouts and upgraded meds at you that can be a problem if you don’t have a sniper as well as some bots you might have to pit because they are tough to kill unless you have a damn good team some missions are even designed so you have to pit the bots because their regen makes killing them conventionally impossible, also when playing air blast is stupid useful because I can push the bomb back as much as I want to compensate for me not being able to kill enough things but most of this applies more to custom maps and missions since the valve maps get kinda boring after a while
Mad milk syringes also have their uses, I’d agree on Manhattan they aren’t all that good because you can’t arc your shots from spawn into the front line because the front and spawn both have a roof that would block the syringes. Mad milk syringes are best used to spray a group of giants then switch to your medi gun to keep the heal rate up and for aggressive pyros who might be farther away from you
Mad milk syringes actually build uber. Any health restored from the milk will add a little uber to the medic, so using it with a heavy 1v1ing a high damage giant can give you a lot of uber quickly.
0:37 Holy shit mann in just 2 years you went from 7k to 145k subscribers, That's immpresive and honestly you deserve it!
Blutsauger + Mad Milk upgrade can heal the medic insanely fast when in a pinch
Mad milk syringes are good if you don't have a scout on your team. You just need to work on switching your syringe gun and medigun frequently.
Or...if everything else if filled out
My Uber full
My shield full
Can I just shoot one madmilk syringe it will just take a second or two
Counterpoint to juggle pyro:
If your team is working around a pyro with built knock back, they're applying huge burst damage by focusing on offensive upgrades, knowing they don't need to take as many defensive upgrades because of the decreased pressure from the bots. Taking max knockback and a scorch shot with a cracked fire rate can hold entire waves at the spawn gate.
0:36 makes me so happy seeing how far you’ve come weezy
I've found that on Gear Grinder, mad milk time upgrades are usually much more useful. Due to the lack of medic in the Expert meta, the heavies are much more reliant on milk being on the bots they're gunning down at point blank. Also super scouts can and will carry the bomb at mach 5 unless you slow them.
"The Heavies are much more reliant on milk" is a phrase that makes me think
@@jabuticaba4003 Heavy love malk
@@jabuticaba4003 heavy need big bones to hold big gun, milk make bones strong
heal on kill
ammo refill canteens
bodyblocking
@@SamuelTrademarked Heal on kill doesn't do anything to giants
Hard disagree on milky syringes, milk heals faster than mediguns, scunts are gonna scunt, there's canteen specialist for spamming ubers and shield is a slight crapshoot. It's a cheap "oh shit" upgrade ala slowdown milk.
Also hard disagree on minisentry, it's vital as the gunslinger money engie to prevent all 6 busters from spawning at once.
Mad Milk syringes can actually be pretty good if you utilize their slow travel time to shoot preemptively where an enemy is going to be and switch back to your medigun.
This. It also help healing the others since the healing on hit means your attacking allies can get some more breathing room while you arrive with your medigun to heal them. The only tough thing is aiming with it, but otherwise it's not as useless as the video makes it sound.
Hell, it can help the Pyros a lot, since as a Medic, you don't want to get as close to the enemies as the Pyros does - so this can be helpful.
Again, I am not advocating firing a gun over using the medigun, I'm just saying this isn't as bad an upgrade as the video makes it to be.
Sometimes I just want to try something fun. But I only do this in boot camps don’t worry. I don’t want to be a burden to my team.
Also, wouldn’t it be nice if the game told you the full effect, and you know. ACTUALLY WORKED
Being someone with not too many tours under his belt, this has helped me out, especially with resistance spending. Thank you!
If I recall, sigsegv says (and I've verified), that the second point of Sentry Firing Speed isn't actually "low priority" as you imply in the video. It's actually a backup in case the first point is affected by the bug. You can only upgrade Sentry Firing Speed once (at least as far as the Wrangler is concerned... I forget if the bug behaves differently for un-Wrangled Sentries). Usually, the first point achieves the maximum effect, but if it doesn't work, you need to get the second point or you're missing out on major DPS:
ua-cam.com/video/j2nQkzroNPI/v-deo.html
Also, let it be known that I buy Health Regen when playing as The Spy, since the Spy playstyle I espouse involves focusing on giant robots and getting a relatively low number of kills for the amount of damage you do, and Health Regan can reduce the amount of time you waste retreating to grab health packs in situations where Health on Kill doesn't help you. There are also niche situations where The Sniper and The Engineer can benefit from Health Regen if they are stationed far away from any health packs and Dispensers, since they are relatively stationary classes and Health on Kill isn't very good for The Engineer.
i finished your spy practice mission i feel like a god
I can't find anything to reply about this comment so uh, you made a typo. R e g a n
Sniper already have the cozy camper, so i don't know if he really need it
@@juansebastianpulidovelasco2195 well if he needs to use Jarate or Cleaners Carbine...
What about kunai
Every single game I've ever played of MvM with a spy, the spy had by far the most deaths and the least amount of damage.
Underscore gaming: is ViAbLe
@@panchofenix9912 no its viable you just need to know circle strafing and know about robot ai i know its hard to use your brain but try using it
spy is just a difficult class to play but hes definitely viable
its just rare to see good spies because you need to know how to play properly
@@woop6727i hate that some gibus brass beast and heavy and kritzkrieg medic combo can finish the game with over 200k damage while i use my brain and only get 90 k :(
@@mehmetaktan8527 damage numbers mean nothing, a bad heavy can still outdamage good players just because hes a heavy, a bad engi can still outdamage because his sentry does the work for him and so on
Quite useful, didn't know certain upgrades didn't work after a couple ticks. I'll keep that in mind for later, thanks!
I gotta disagree with Mad Milk Syringes, sure you're not building Uber or a Shield but you're also not constantly popping either of those so there's a lot of time where you don't need them and are just saving them for the big robot half way through. As for healing people, I find that people can heal themselves better than I can with the Medi Gun because each class will be gaining health equal to 60% of their DPS which is just ludicrous in MvM where soldiers can sneeze 11 rockets in 2 seconds and Pyro pretty much always has crits. The only classes that struggle with this is Scout (who heals by money anyway), Spy (People play spy in MvM?) Sniper and Engie (both of whom are far enough back to mitigate damage received and easily reach other healing sources.)
Of course the moment you actually need Uber, Shield, Canteen or to heal someone who can't fight as well such as Engie, Sniper or a low health Pyro you immediately switch back to the Medigun but I can't turn down that much healing for only 200 bucks. The only time Mad Milk Syringes falls off is during crit heavy waves where Uber, Shield and Canteens are so important that you don't really get a chance to apply the Mad Milk.
THIS! THIS IS WHAT IM TRYING TO TELL PEOPLE! MOST UNDERRATED MEDIC UPGRADE, JUST DON'T BATTLE MEDIC WITH IT
Are we sure that mad milk does not build a shield tho?
For me, even despite any boosts it gives the team, it's health to you, which means that if you are caught out and need to fight for your life (and Uber charge) you have the survivability from the sheer health Regen from the damage, I play blutsauger for that maximise health on hit so I don't die and can regroup with the team to carry on healing
You fool the mini sentry and minier sentry combo with frontier justice is god
2:13 I'm a Pyro Main and I dont really play that much MvM, but I found this part very helpful. Thanks for teaching how to not be an idiot!
I can kinda argue the health regen point. But only for one reason. As a medic main I've found it to to be a bit helpful to help keep me alive seeing as i rarely ever have overheal and can practically never get health on kill. Its also a bit of help if my team gets slaughtered and im damaged i can run away while utilizing medic's normal health regen along with the purchased health regen.
doesn't healing mastery increase self heal as well?
@@yeethappymeta *SUPER MEGA HEALING*
If I may be completely blunt...
If your team is getting slaughtered, you aren't being effective as a Medic, and should switch. It's most likely because either they don't understand about resistances (especially crit res), or else they aren't doing enough damage. In either case, you aren't being effective, and you should switch to Soldier/Demo.
@@lsdave42 Yes and no. I que with friends and most matches go well with no flaws. But there are a few times stuff gets hectic and i can't keep everyone alive.
@@yeethappymeta If it does i didnt know that.
7:03
. . .
So in other words, when I've been getting firing speed over max health
I've been tossing it down the drain.
...
*AAAA*
when going the bomber plane Soldier strategy (Air strike + base jumper + any melee) , consider upgrading to at least the 2nd tick of the rocket specialist, because the increased blast radius damage really helps when dealing with swarms of enemies.
Had this one soldier who did nothing but use the charge shot with the cow mangler, BUT he fully upgraded clip size with nothing in reload speed
@@1un4cy ok, this sounds painful to play with
Man, crazy how the algorithm blessed me two years ago just to see this man explode. Good shit man
0:01 wha- (*gets brain cancer*)
IMO, there’s almost no reason for me to get two-way teleporters aside from when there’s a Super Scout that somehow manages to sneak past everyone. It’s much too subtle for its own good, too. At the end of a wave, most players I’ve seen would walk back to spawn or kill bind rather than take the teleporter. Sometimes I forget my Engineer bought it which can lead to some… inconveniences.
Tought it's good since killing yourself resets your "kill streakz", which is good for hardcore players
It’s been a while since this comment so you may know this now, but 2 way is highly dependent on teamwork. If you put it in a place that is easily accessed it can be used for people to get upgrades or canteens mid wave with minimal down time. Spamming crit canteens all wave is very powerful late game and even getting damage upgrades or other things early game it’s very nice if people remember to use it
Mad milk syringes does build Über and you can also swap from it to your medi gun at any time. Meaning you can heal way more with it.
Other commenters say it doesn't build uber, but does build shield
@@realchiknuggetsThose people are wrong, it does build uber.
Quite late but counter argument that isn't apprently obvious for Burn Damage :
It actually DOES augment your continuous DPS as Pyro.
When you continuously torch an enemy (or robot) with your Flamethrower as Pyro, you do BOTH direct flame damage AND afterburn damage. Which both add to your total DPS.
This is part of the reason why the Degreaser is bad at DPSing anything (PvP or PvE) : its hacked down afterburn damage.
So while yes, the regular Damage upgrade is the better of the two and should ALWAYS be the first buy alongside Ammo Capacity, buying Burn Damage after those two DOES continue to slightly augment your DPS further up. Which allows you, for example, to build Mmmph! faster or simply DPS giants and tanks down faster as well (since the afterburn also get crit boosted when the Flamethrower is).
I like to use the milk syringes sometimes for prep before running in with the ubersaw to build uber real quick. That way while I'm busy doing that, the team can still heal themselves from the robots I mark.
Even though the 2nd tick of heavy firing speed doesn't work, what of the 3rd and 4th tick?
they both work as normal, so save up credits until you can buy both 2nd and 3rd ticks at once
1 tick = 10%
2 tick = 10% (still)
3 tick = 30%
4 tick = 40%
second tick comes to effect when you buy the third tick
@@nilin2236 If anyone wants a TLDR of why this is:
a minigun fires every 7 ticks normally (think frames) and much like frames you can't do anything between them
-10% is 6.3 which rounds to fire every 6 ticks
-20% is 5.6 which again rounds to every 6 ticks
-30% is 4.9 which rounds up to 5 ticks
-40% is 4.2 which rounds down to 4 ticks
@@woop6727 I really feel that he should mention that the third and fourth tier work normally.
imo rocket specialist is great to upgrade when you have reload speed, firing speed, and damage upgraded, because then every shot that hits something direct (aka big swarm of small robots) is like a gas passer explosion
That's cool but then you could also just have someone on your team run the gas passer and not burn credits. Like it's not an overpowered piece of shit anyway...
You already put in about atleast 3k without resistances when maxed out on those upgrades. Most missions do not give you that much money and you can spend it on better upgrades like health on kill and resistances. I don't mind getting 1 tick for giant scouts though/certain situations where the no falloff is pretty helpful
You're far better off spending the $$ on resistances, canteens, or even banner duration.
While it's handy yes, if I'm not mistaken while the shot that hits directly doesn't take damage falloff, the explosion radius still does (unless minicrit boosted) so its not that much damage if they even get hit by the larger radius
No, it absolutely is not. Have you even played the game?
Mad milk syringes can be dummy good when taking down giants with your heavy
Your heavy would benefit more from being healed + having a shield + having a scout that can do same thing already.
1:30 idk if you know but you caught a hacker in 4k lol
6:10
I buy disposable sentry on tank waves, then use the gunslinger and a widowmaker. Widowmaker the tank while the other two take care of adds. Since they're minis, you don't have to even remotely worry about upgrades or if they go down. That way you can damage the tank while killing adds, and you don't have to worry about losing the sentry if you do so.
I honestly think disposable sentry is an underrated upgrade. It allows engie to have a bigger area denial, increase his DPS, or still defend while being occupied with sentry busters. Sure, it may be as weak as a mini sentry, but having an extra gun does certainly help.
I've got 34 tours and a lot of this information is really useful. I've always wanted a 6 stack to play the default mvm team and nothing different and hearing that knockback rage reduces damage is crazy + also had no idea sentry firing speed was broken either
I knew about almost all of these but the sentry & heavy firing speed REALLY caught me off guard
Think we need to fact check that tbh, the information he referenced was from research 6 years ago.
I thought it had been fixed.
In fact about 2 years ago i did a test on Engi with a friend on 666 and we both placed our sentries on opposite sides of the corridor at the start and he had Sentry firing speed maxed and i had 1.
He out damaged me considerably.
Worth testing again to make sure other factors were not in play
The disposable sentry makes since being on this list low damage and low health however if you pair it with the frontier justice it free crits for days without sacrificing your main one as long as you have the metal
0:00 Ah yes, the old classic roblox theme we all know.
This channel is very poggers
I quite like your analysis of the different aspects of MvM, and your editing style really nicely complements the discussion format and your style of speaking!
Also, I gotta say, I'm glad to see more coherent discussion of airblast force, bc as an Engie main, holy hell does that get annoying when I just want to get rid of the Sentry Buster, but some rando I matched up with insists he's doing the team a favor, when he could be spending that ammo more effectively!
pro tip: make sure to increase scout's speed and jump it makes him basically sonic and is useful for dodging attacks to inflict your own attacks (also helps you get melee hits in without taking too much damage)
9:40 Mad Milk Syringes is only bad when you spam it
He’s spamming syringes is the problem, if a giant robot shows up just flick some syringes they’re way then switch back to secondary, takes two second and how your team is healing both by madmilk and medi-gun
This video is simply superb. More than exceeded my expectations as an avid MvM expert. Small notes and pointers:
0:45 For the Spies, regen is actually as useful as HoK, and sometimes it fluctuates depending on situation. As you would only target key targets and not mobs as spies, HoK sometimes can be on hold for a while, and sometimes you might not even get kill credit because you're competing with 4-5 other people on damage on a big target. However, I cannot advocate too much for this since I run kunai nowadays.
3:48 - Nothing wrong here. Just applauding your effort of using jump height to phlog cancel. Phlog cancel is simple, but even among other experts I rarely see jump height being made use of. gz.
6:43 - TL;DR: Only one of the points of SFS works. In the format (A/B) where A is unwrangled and B is wrangled, With 0 ticks it will fire every (9/6) ticks for sure, with 1 it will fire every (6/3) most of the time unless server tick rounding is being funny and thus will do nothing, in which case it will be fixed for sure by the 2nd tick, and 3rd one doesn't do anything. Extra: With crit canteen, it will always fire every 3 ticks, regardless of SFS level. Wrangling doesn't change how good 1st and 2nd comparatively are.
7:26 - For the Tomislav, it's the first tick. In the format of 0/1/2/3/4 upgrades of firing speed, for the Tomi it fires every 8/8/7/6/5 ticks, and for all others it's 7/6/6/5/4.
8:44 - I would buy 3 reload before 1 RS first in all situations, but it's not the end of the world if you don't.
9:18 - Not exactly... correct. The main reason is that Medic's shield acts as invuln for the team and there is already more than enough healing to go around usually, therefore Medic's actual priority when maximising effectiveness is to permaboost the best player's(there is little point in boosting others except in specific situations) damage with crits(There is an alternative playstyle, but I won't go into it). Medic in MvM is not really ideally used to heal, so you can add overheal expert to this list. Healing Mastery, however, is actually useful for a list of small reasons that add up to make it impactful enough. The mad milk isn't that great except to just allow heavies and beggar's soldiers to facetank giants, which as you mentioned, a scout even with 0 milk recharge rate should be more than fine to make up for.
As someone who basicly plays Wave 666 nearly everytime i play MvM, i can say that Health Regen is a NEEDED upgrade, because without it even with ALL my resistances AND HOK MAXED, i still get sent to the shadow realm of near-death red health, especially since 9 times out of 10 im going to choose Phlog+Gas Passer Pyro
Plus, health sources aren't effective as much as WeezyTF2 says.
1) Not having a Medic is more effective in certain situations, like in 666. Better attack > better defence, always. And having a Medic lowers the attack output of a team.
2) In many hard waves, dispensers get destroyed easily because people use it when their health is low and many players still do that even if they are going to be attacked right on there.
3) Health packs isn't effective on MVM just because we need to wait for them after someone takes them.
5:06 Also, its not like a shout effect, thats in front of you in a cone shape, like the shouts in skyrim.
You actually need to be shooting at, and hitting a robot for it to be pushed back. If you miss, no pushback.
I actually like rocket specialist. You can easily clear a large group of small robots with 2-3 rockets from the extended blast radius.
Okay I must say something about the Mad milk syringes the only real use you should have for this upgrade is for mid-to-late waves because of its inexpensive cost and use it as a sorta my team is dead and I need to run away tool.
As a medic main, I say that the one of the only reasons to pull out your syringe gun is if everyone else is dead (like if they don't move away from a sentry buster) or if you desperately need health. Don't be a battle medic, folks, the brass beast heavy will outperform you every time
Well only time i wip out syringegun to get quick burst mad milk syringes out and imidietly switch to medi gun
i play battle medic, because im cool like that
@@thedecentgamer7818 I respect that
weezy this video is a 50/50 for me dude that is a good thing
Played a 2 shitties mission with him, he's a super cool dude hope I get the pleasure of playing with you again- [HF]Melvin
8:37 Top 10 Moments Before Death
Well no, if you play on: bigrock, coaltown, ghost town and rottenburg - airblast force is a very good and useful updrade, especially if you know how to launch robots up. If you play on mannhattan it becomes unbelievable useful just because you can send robots to this insta-killing machine from A entrance by a single click. Also, it only costs 100 credits per 100% of airblast power, and if you don't sure in your team, or if you are playing ghost town, you should buy this
That's from the perspective of a player that know the basics of MvM, but a newbie will spam the airblast button every time they can even when there's no need to. So it's more like PTSD of players got trolled by a random 1 tour pyro that upgrade this and keep airblasting the giants and messed up demo's stickytraps and messed up the teams aim to destroy the robots.
@@gabrielraynard8056 i like killing my discord teammates with sentry buster
@@iamihha I don't know that's a troll or a grief, but man that shit is satisfying to pulled off when facing a tacobot mf
guys i think this channel is very poggers
MvM sweats when you arent constantly min maxing
tbf it's easy to get like that in an old game with a mode that relies a lot on cooperation and gamesense, like castle crashers insane mode or bl1/bl2/bl3 raids/takedowns
6:34 I swear the guides I looked at like 7 years ago used to say two way teleporter was a waste of credits unless I'm misremembering. Maybe the meta changed because it helps people complete tours faster.
It was called a waste exactly because of that. But 2-way is still generally good when a random scout bot somehow makes it to spawn and you have no effective way to run back there.
@@--A3-- or if you want to buy some upgrades quickly without having the hassle to wait for the respawn timer or going to the spawnroom normally
@@Nate14567 Why would you use 2 tp to teleport back for shop when you can killbind? Normally when you wanna buy from the shop it's the end of the round so you just killbind
I'd actually like to make a correction to the Sentry Firing Speed notion, you're kind of right and kind of wrong on how it works.
The first pip applies normally as you said, however the 2nd pip applies when you pull out the wrangler (the wrangler increases the base firing speed of the sentry and the 2nd pip stacks on top of it) the 3rd however still does nothing.
So if you like to use the wrangler to help focus down big bots and/or pull aggro from giant blackbox soldiers (sense they dont heal when they hit the sentry) the 2nd pip can really come in handy for tearing them down. But if you don't use the wranlger at all or very seldomly, it isn't as worth it and is best used on other upgrades.