SIMPLE Fe-Ti Definition: SOCIAL TRUTH | Extraverted Feeling (Fe) and Introverted Thinking (Ti)
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
- ENFP Kyle and I talk about the Fe-Ti tandem process in more depth.
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Hi there! I'm Joyce, a certified MBTI® Master Practitioner, Enneagram Coach, Jungian Typology Expert, Master NLP Practitioner, and Gallup® CliftonStrengths Coach.
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INTP here. Good breakdown of the Fe-Ti axis. One notion I’m missing being explored here, and also in similar pieces elsewhere dealing with the same content is:
- Sure, we Ti high users, especially Ti dom’s, may not even KNOW or be aware of the group’s emotional needs. But it doesn’t stop there! Many times I make perfectly cognizant choices when letting my Ti knives fall, and I am highly aware of exactly what negative emotional consequences it may have throughout my audience, especially if I know them well (think work, family). I’m not sure why this point isn’t spelled out more often, that it is not that we can’t ‘see’ or understand the emotional landscape, but quite differently that we weigh the expected emotional damage vs holding our tongue on an important ‘truth’ against each other, and sometimes the latter wins. I, for one, am rarely caught by surprise when my audience expresses disgust etc to a particularly sharp Ti truth I carefully chose to state out in no uncertain terms.
This, then raises the next notion and really interesting broader point: when should it, if ever, be considered mean or rude to state a particular point of view?
A very good question :) It all comes down to order of priority and technique of delivery I'd say. As in, contrasting urgency with magnitude. Is the truth vital to be had moving forward? Or are it's benefits minimal when compared to the immediate consequences? And about delivery, more often than not, we're less likely to accept harsh advice (or truth) delivered in public, keywords being "Harsh" and "In public". in order for your words to have the most effect with the least misunderstanding, It's almost always better to deliver them in private. Publicly giving advice (Or stating a truth) is often perceived as public shaming and it's seldom tolerated by anyone :') And the technique of delivery and use of words comes more with experience, that's the Fe part of the equation.
TL;DR: I'd say the rudeness of a statement depends on it's urgency and really where, when and how it's delivered. In my opinion at least :)
seems it was explained at around 8:30
As a Ti dom, I believe that it should never be considered mean or rude to state a fact or a perceived truth if it is not clearly from an antisocial place against another person where there is clear and obvious malice AND little practical importance or use in thinking about it. It can be considered poor strategy, and ultimately dumb, but only because of social game theory, and how others work
I just know high Fe users and any Fi users who don't share my views won't agree at any given point. Also Fe child will have my ExTPs pretending to agree with the group, so Ti doms only, the 15% of us.
I do agree with the group thinking separately and coming together to find the best morals, as long as they are open. So usually I'm happy to "play nice" although sometimes I just get going and really don't consider potential offense with Ti/Ne ideas.
What I consider mean or rude is disagreeing on logic with no counterargument based on analysis. *cough* Fi users with values based arguments, especially Te Ni Se users who are also closed minded and will just tell you how dumb you are. Also Fe users who shut down discourse not because they think you're saying wrong shit, but because you are being controversial. It's hard for me when people refuse to bring Ti to the table when trying to understand things.
xSTJ are the absolute worst though. Either weak, immature and overused Fi or Ne or weak and rejected. So they struggle with self centered emotions that they deny or don't realise are affecting their thinking, and struggle with change and openness. And the Si/Te combo is BRUTAL. They do what they do and think what they think cos it's the only thing that makes sense. Unfortunately 33% of men are like this and more if you consider men who are in the working and lower middle classes who socialise, it's probably closer to 50% STJ, precisely because they bully all the INxx out of the group from a young age, and the ISFx usually don't like them either
As an INTP - this usually manifests in the form of finding the optimal compromise between parties in a given situation. I generally consider the optimal compromise to be achieving a goal in an efficient way that everyone can accept, not necessarily making those involve feel a certain way. Of course, if everyone can be comfortable, that is a great bonus, and I do factor that in - but it's not what I typically focus on.
Example: My parents were considering a separation last year and asked for my opinion. They both were so used to their 35+ years of suffering and secretly just didn't want to feel like that span of their life had been wasted/invalidated by the failed marriage. I told them I had long since noticed they didn't communicate well and if they can't fix that, they would probably be best going separate ways. I'm sure they would have preferred me to say they could get through it together, but I gave my truthful observation. Now, a year later, they have been living part for some time, and are both more comfortable with themselves, and sadly experiencing the freedom to truly be their own people for the first time. I focused a lot on showing them how many things can be true at once - they can care for and still love each other while simultaneously recognizing that the dynamic and responsibilities of marriage to each other is unhealthy for them.
I love Joyce
Same.
😝😝😝😝😝😝
I don't
Simp /j
This is so true for me as an Fe dom. I try to do, say and create things that work well for the environment and the atmosphere of people I'm with. It's a wonderful balance when I learn to hone my baby Ti inferior to analyze what I'm thinking to bring harmony to the people and myself!
Since my middle functions are perceiving functions (Si-Ne), I'm able to see the steps and faults in situations and events. As oppose to my judging functions; one is on autopilot while the other is hidden away, I may not judge myself and well others creating an imbalance at times!
Very informative video Joyce! 👏👏👏
What I seem to see is when Te tries to make a (group) of peope happy, they will more so look at a certain result that makes everyone happy and then try to get them there while less taking into consideration how everyone feels about the way how to get there. Fe on the other hand will more so take into account how everyone feels about the way to get there, which makes the journey better, but might have a less optimal outcome because of this. In that sense journey and result are more 'balanced' in relation with eachother.
Te more so has this thing where they tend to suffer through things and then get some outcome. Dave and Shan are all about this for example. Things are seen as a battle where you suffer and then in the end 'win' some result.
You mentioned suffering at the end… I tend to see a kind of suffering that strong Fe individuals do too…. taking the hit, or omitting their own personal wants or desires in favor of what others want for the sake of keeping the peace or being agreeable. Some seem to take a pride in that thing (until it happens too much, and they don’t get the feedback they were hoping for in the form of appreciative words and acknowledgement)… and others almost suffer in silence when their Fe efforts aren’t rewarded or met. I actually find it very difficult to suss out what strong Fe users want. Me: What do you want? Fe: What do You want? What does everybody else want? Me: That’s not what I was asking! (I sometimes make them reluctantly choose. Or I will infer when they ask me if I want something I have no desire for, and I never asked for that thing)
@@Tified967 Looking for harmony isn't necessarily agreeableness, that's a fallacy. Often you need to be disagreeable to reach that harmony. And often people just go along with what others want because they simply don't care.
That's why the 4 families (not the stupid socionics quadras... Ti users imitate Te not use it so socionics is null in my opinion right there) work so well together in groups to make decisions, they balance each others weak spots but use the same 4 functions.
STJ + NFP
STP + NFJ
SFJ + NTP
SFP + NTJ
The perceiver dominants are the bridge, because the judging is what divides the types. Ie, an INTP and an ESFJ will do better together than each with any other T/F dom, but they will probably differ a lot on balance, where the ENTP and ISFJ will glue the group together
@@dxfifa Interesting ideas. My guess is that you're entp/intp?
@@dxfifa (It gives me that impression because of hte confidence in your own reasoning, that is distinct from another system)
Cool stuff
Just to add, the judging functions aren't always looking for a decision, just to resolve or evaluate information according to a different paradigm.
Decisions feel more final than what judging functions are doing most of the time. It seems like all the functions come together in order to make that decision.
For me it feels like I lean into my judging function (Ti) to make that decision but I've seen others (observers) lean into a perception in order to make decisions (especially when their two judging functions are at odds).
"the judging functions... resolve or evaluate information according to a different paradigm."
This is a great point, Binyamin! I think that's a more accurate way of putting it.
Right, many people think of decisions as action-related, in which case that would be true. I think we mentioned evaluation more in the Te/Fi video, and probably neglected that word here.
Technically an evaluation is a type of decision (we decide what something's value/quality is): Fi & Ti tend more towards evaluation vs Fe/Te tend towards activity or outward visible decision-making.
The main point is to distinguish between P & J functions - perceiving functions specifically do not evaluate or make decisions (though they *significantly* influence/filter all our evaluations).
It's a nice nuance - thanks for bringing that up!
~Kyle
I have to see what is the meaning of paradigm...(sorry my English vocabulary is very limited)
I see, the whole function stack is like an individual paradigm or lens. In decision making the Dominant function holds more weight.. sounds like a cognitive bias. I totally get it. i think that is why the metaphor for that dominant function is the driver
To me, Fe is very observable in a concrete way. It tends to take the form of “Group Voting/Surveying regarding Relational Matters.”
Ultimately it leads to Agreed upon Group Signs of relationship in the form of group culture, customs, etiquette, etc. And guiding others in these ways for a particular group culture (each group culture varies, creating a new context. Strong Fe can easily read then educate/guide others in all the different groups they are a part of.) Their own independent Ti thinking/expression can sometimes be sacrificed for the sake of considering the group vote, for the sake of group relational harmony, for the sake of consensus. Consensus becomes both the glue and the lube for social interactions and building relational harmony.
Ti doms tend to think the group needs to be educated properly to make the correct decision and prefer logical discourse to making feel good decisions that may have worse consequences. If the group are being idiots, the Ti doms will tell them so or feel oppressed, the Ti auxes will use their Fe child to try and manipulate the group, the Fe aux will usually go along with it thinking the group must know and the Fe doms will actively try to get everyone on the same page based on group voting first, and then logic
I'm an INTP married to an ENFJ and one observation I've had is that I'm fairly free flowing with giving my opinions and ideas when I'm with people I'm comfortable with, and less so with people I'm not (Fe Inferior). My ENFJ wife on the other hand feels quite free to socially engage with strangers and friends alike but reserves her opinions for when it matters most, and she is very sure what that is. At this point, she must have her say and nobody better interrupt because she has saved this up for maximum impact (Ti Inferior). The best thing is we both help strengthen our inferior functions and I've found through emulating her behavior I'm MUCH more confident at navigating social situations and she's always been sharp minded, but she is even more of a logical force to be reckoned with when it comes time for her to make her case because we've already hashed out the pros-cons and came up with at least 5 arguments in support of her position before she even begins to make her case.
When I discovered my cognitive flow follows FM-Ne/Ti-CS/P(B): I understood more why I enjoy your channel, Joyce. I stay grateful for your consistent discussions about nuances I ponder.
The whole time I was listening, I was thinking about how some Fe doms will ostracize or even socially lynch people out of a group. People can endure extreme hardship and anguish from this that I’m not even sure the Fe dom who did it cares about for that person. BUT I also know a few Fe doms who do the opposite and bring new people in and help everyone welcome them and if they see me doing the same I can tell they agree we are doing the “right” thing and there is room for differences. I thought this was just my observation, but then you said it, Joyce. I wonder if there is a helpful or not helpful, preferred or not preferred way of handling or thinking about things that is true for each dom function.
You guys kind of gave mixed messages regarding the Feeling function. lol. To me Feeling involves the Consideration of Needs of people involved when coming to decision. And Emotions are always indicators that Needs are either being Met or Not Met (*idea derived from Marshal Rosenberg), thus emotions are a variable to be considered because they are directly tied to needs.
(warning: complex Ne nuance ahead - it may not be helpful for everyone)
Yes, it's a bit tricky because Te also really cares about getting needs met and receiving positive feedback, so we try to be nuanced. Fe will care far less than Te about non-emotional metrics of Need. The word Feeling is also tricky, because that also means perception of physical sensations for the Se & Si functions, and sometimes people use the word to describe a gut instinct (which involves Ni & Ne), and so the English language kind of complicates this whole topic, too. The multiple English definitions probably means that we're always going to be a bit confusing...
I feel like defining emotions *only* in terms of needs met/unmet is a very Te or Fe-biased (probably with Ni/Se's reductionary preference) definition (which is not bad/wrong, it's just not the whole picture); I haven't read Rosenberg directly, so I'm not commenting on what he meant - I can't evaluate that. I think it's probably true on a pragmatic level.
At the very least, the likely emergent of that definition would bias us to actually look past emotion itself ("what are the needs that can be met/unmet") instead of specifically experiencing/sharing the emotion - sometimes even resonating with it if it's someone else's. Fi's relationship to emotion is qualitatively different than Fe in particular. I have to think about it more, but my Fi instinct tells me that emotion can also be tied to values or resonance with others/ideas outside of the limiting framework of needs. It's not something that 'needs' to be fixed (or vibes that need to be restored), but experiencing emotion personally enriches us and contributes to our identity and the story of our life.
Haha, thanks for getting my Ne going - I definitely complicate things, so don't mind my nuance if it's not helpful (often the simplified/reduced Ni/Se-isms are just fine for a context like this).
~Kyle
@@kbf81 Hey Kyle! I totally appreciate you sharing all the Ne-thoughts! I think new novel ways to think about things or frame this is like the best… until I want to find a new thing. lol. What I mentioned is a simplified version of Marshal Rosenberg’s Non-Violent Communication model. (I think he was INFJ, not 100% sure). For myself as an INFP I actually find a simplified framework helpful. I tend to use it in myself and others when trying to figure out exactly what they are wanting from a situation. A lot of times people address the emotion, without going the additional step of interpretation of the emotion. For myself I often ask, “Why am I reacting this way?” Often when looking at the situation at hand I might conclude that “I was wanting social support… acceptance… autonomy… to feel safe in expressing myself…. to feel safe in Fully Expressing my deepest wants or desires”. I also do that in my head when listening to what others are saying and/or doing, and getting a feel for what was desired or hoped for. “It seems like they wanted to be recognized for this thing… or They wanted to be viewed in this manner…”
You also mentioned emotions as tied to values with Fi. I find there are times when I come across a new situation where I have an intense emotional response… like extremely visceral…. A concrete real-life example is me at an Asian market, and seeing a fish being butchered while it is still alive: All of the sudden I feel I can’t breath, there is a tightness in my chest and throat… instantly I know I am being informed of my values. In this case it involves giving consideration to a living being without a voice in that situation. The way it was slowly being killed was too much for me.
Another way I experience Fi is feeling like I am being called upon. I will come across a situation where someone says or does something that really draws my attention. The non-verbal part within myself is telling to go approach, go see if there is anything I can do. And when I am in the process of helping, I will sometimes feel a visceral feeling of warmth within my chest, almost as if informing me that I am in the right space, and I am doing “the right thing” by trying to emotionally connect with another in that moment. My emotions that I am unable to describe in that moment are telling me I am doing something that aligns with my inner being… that I am doing That which is fulfilling. Maybe I am listening to a painful story, and feeling a sense of pain and sorrow myself, but that inner connecting feels extremely fulfilling… perhaps a Soul Need?
Okay, I don’t know where I was going with this and may have gotten off topics you mentioned… but yeah… Ne! Fi! I hope I was able to add more nuance for your brain to consider. lol. Totally read “Non-Violent Communication” by Marshal Rosenberg if you’re curious. I kind of use it loosely as a kind of starting point, the same way I tend to use type when navigating relationships. I am always asking, in my head, what people are asking for and prioritizing… and I find that both of those models are helpful, adding more reference points while I interact in real time with others. Cheers!
Joyce, have you thought of doing a video for newbies that goes into some expansion on differences between thinking and feeling and then sub divides them further into their introverted and extroverted categories. Same with intuition and sensation. It’s really difficulty to find this with UA-camrs that is done in a user friendly way the way your videos are. I find your videos more helpful than most available out there 😊
This is my axis! I love it!!!
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Emotional equilibrium and emotional temperature
Massage the truth
Fe has always bothered me some since it both feels like it discounts the depth of the Fi’s and more importantly the fi of the fe user. It makes so much sense from both a logical and emotional standpoint when I think about it, but why would you need fake group harmony in the first place If everyone could just feel what they actually felt alone and then interact or not interact accordingly. I think I appreciate fe but I don’t always trust the ti under it the same way that I don’t always like te but I know that if I can find the fi in the person the te either becomes obsolete, or works out better.
I think it is often a misconception that Fe fakes it, but I do not blame you because it seems logical from an outside looking in. At least for me and the way i have seen it in my Fe dom mom, Fe does not fake anything. Yes, it does change for the group, Fe adapts to what the group wants or needs, but that doesn't mean it is fake. In the contrary, it is something natural that comes unconsciously, and doing the opposite actually requires effort.
To better understand, it might be good to understand how Fe works for an Fi blind, such as myself... I am an ENTP. I have absolutely no problem nor do I struggle to keep the emotional harmony, because I absorb the group's emotions... See, to make everyone else happy is to make myself happy. If the group is angry, I get overwhelmed by the emotion. To my ESFP brother, it has always been an struggle that my Fe dom mom always wants to keep the peace. Because he feels that her trying to shut his emotional outbursts to keep the peace is her trying to "discounts the depth of the Fi’s". But to us Fe doms, to disturb the peace of the group is to harm us. Again, we absorb the emotions of those around us, so to act angrily and display negative emotions, we absorb them, thus we feel like you are hurting us directly. It is not that we put ourselves below the group, it is that we make the group ourselves and thus hurting the group you hurt us.
Now that doesn't mean it is necessary for the peace to always be there, I have TI above Fe... So i can sacrifice my own emotional wellbeing by disturbing the group to tell the truth... but it still hurts. What I love to do then, is avoid people that have emotional outburst, and seek those that love the truth as I do. But for Fe doms is not that simple, they can feel that keeping the peace, disturbs their sense of truth, and that is where they struggle.
At the end of the day, we are all very different people, and MBTI is great because we can see how people are so different than each other. Sometimes we want to project how our functions work to others... just like you assume everyone has their Fi, and they would be better to have their Fi shine.... I do the same but for Ti.
@@farrex0 oh goodness, well said. Hold on I’ll say more, but thank you 🙌🏼.
@@farrex0 wise wise observations here. Yeah, this make sense. Fi is so ingrained in me and when I sway for Fe which I do often as an ENFP but I just know that it has to be the right group of people, or the right persons more likely. It is so hard to get out of our dominate functions as well. I think that if I switched into a dominate fe mode it would involve me having to mute a lot of my fi which I do all of the time in things like work and family, but for fi users it feels like when we can take off that mask and show our true selves probably similar to walking away from a te storm and thinking about or even showing others your ti would feel. It’s sort of like I’ll use this tool now but it’s not as good as my sharper one I keep locked in the shed concept. I respect and love fe users, my hubs is one INFJ and so is my Mom ISFJ. To watch them orchestrate through group dynamics and to not get as super charged as fi users is actually amazing. I see the self sacrifice and self control going on there as well. ENTP’s always sort of shock me with their fe since their ti can sometimes make them appear aloof like other NT’s but you all are so aware of social groupings and pairings and able to roll with so many different types of people. Like the unicorn (true ExxP) of the NT’s you kind of sort of like people a lot and it makes you really nice actually. Well, be careful though right ENTP’s and INFJ’s are soft teddy bears with razer sharp back molars that come out every once in a you deserve this ti moments right? Ahha but they probably did if you thought so and that is the truth hahaha. You don’t like to use that flip dark side but it’s sort good that it IS there. You’re right about everyone being different and I find the best experience from having some opposites and even some would be enemies around. We learn so much and since we can’t see our blindsides, or even our actual strengths having some buddies with other function stacks around to show us a mirror and us to them. It helps so so much. We know when we have gone too fair either way. Thank you for showing me what fe is trying to do, or feels like. That’s dope, wish I had less fi deep dives sometimes. It always takes me forever in forming true friendships and relationships because I don’t just love I LOOOVE. The hubs has been like wow oh my gosh he likes to look back on our lives and then he sees it like in depth. Sort of like reading all of the libraries written by ti users at the end of their lives. You can see it then but without fe we would all perish so thank goodness for fe. Plus, I do love to smile and hug so yeah I’m on board Ahha.
@5:08 the roles of ''judging and percieving function'' here made sense, like the fundamental function.But i don't know why i was a bit not certain about he said that ''percieving function comes first then that is when judging function comes in'', i don't know if i heard him right. Chicken and eggs. But i wonder if in theory, are we born with pre-judgement of what the world is? How does Carl Jung's theory of the collective unconscious comes into play with this? This is probably out of topic.
But i assume, in this personality theory, the position of the judging and percieving function and what kind of it affects the chronological process of judgement and data gathering?
I think what I meant there was that in order to make a decision, we actually need at least a bare minimum of data to base the decision on (if we don't perceive/aren't aware of Joyce, we can't evaluate how awesome her podcast is ; or if we can't distinguish between random white noise and music, we can't decide to sing along).
I would anticipate that those who lead with a judging function don't require nearly as much perceiving data to make decisions. And a lead J function may make a judgement very quickly, then call for more data to support or disprove its conclusion afterwards, but it kind of logically needs a tiny perception just to get started.
I hope that makes it more clear. It's slightly speculative, so I could be wrong - I think it was more of a passing insight than an important principle! :)
~Kyle
@@kbf81 I see. I actually see your point there. The general idea of the role of Judging and Percieving function really made sense, you explained it well in that context. We judge by way we percieved things, and that perceptions as you said colors our judgement. It is too good i don't know why i was stuck there 😂. My mind goes way outside of the topic. Are we really judging things based on our collective experience or there is something else pulling our strings? I know it is crazy
The truth is something the majority refuses to acknowledge, it doesn't care about your truth, it doesn't care about your feelings. It simply is. Anyone trying to dance around the truth to spare someone's feelings is living in an impossible realm of existence.
Boooo pluma pluma