A SIMPLE Fi vs Fe EXAMPLE | Introverted & Extraverted Feeling Cognitive Functions | ENFP Enneagram 7
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
- We discuss Fi and its need to be congruent with itself and then contrast it with Fe.
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As an ENFJ (so dominant Fe user) I wanted to add detail something that Joyce said. Regarding not attending the event, I would be concerned about the social implications, but it would not just be frivolous 'will they be upset' concerns. I would be thinking about deep, long term implications such as how it might affect my career, missed networking opportunities etc. I often find that Fe can be portrayed as if we have no authenticity or are shallow, but there usually is more to it than that.
That said, I am very grateful to learn more about how my behaviour might make an Fi user feel.
you are enfj and i am entj and we both think exactly the same because we use ni to reason while the guest is using si to reason. and what i see in this video is not fi, it is hardly suppressed enfp inferior si
@@KM-gt5is I also wanted to add, but didn't, that the pain she feels in going against her values, is exactly the same pain I experience when there is deep disharmony (ie disharmony that could have potentially deadly consequences) around me. I wish we could get away from the idea that any one function is 'better' or 'worse' than another.
Introverted Feeling: Finally there are words for this - being congruent with yourself and your inner core. I always felt that, even my body hurt, when I had to wear a social mask and being not authentic with myself. It is good to understand, why this is and reflect about who I am.
I want to thank her (I didn’t see her name) for articulating this. Yes, as an INTJ, I hope this will help folks understand why we are so reserved and respect that. We INTJs are odd enough as it is so add that on top of already being considered weird or a freak (and I’m a lesbian so that adds another huge level as well), there is only so much pain a person will endure before they decide it’s just not worth it to put yourself out there for others to do what can feel to us like emotional abuse, abuse that so many others don’t seem to understand or care about, which makes us feel even more alone. So yeah, when an Fe user tells us to just relax or chin up or whatever, it is so GLIB. I’ve been actively developing my own value system since a young child and don’t need someone who’s put very little thought into it telling me what’s right for me….Yeah, if an INTJ opens up to you, feel very honored and be sure you respect that. I think this is why I typically have many more Fi users close to me than Fe users, they are more trustworthy with my feelings.
This helped clear up quite a bit. She really understands Fi. For a long time I thought I understood it but I really never did. I don’t experience any kind of inner pain when I have to do something I don’t wanna do. Typically I’ll argue about it for a bit and then just roll my eyes and go along with it when I see that nobody gets my point. I also find that it’s hard for me to determine what I like as far as films, music, etc. Typically I’ll just check out whatever is associated with a particular subculture I’m currently interested in. Nothing has ever really “spoken” to me. I just thought it looked fun. Sounds like I’m Ti-Fe valuing after all
ENTJ here. This was extremely enlightening for me as a Fi inferior. I often don't even realise the inner pain I feel when something goes against my Fi values but I do 100 percent understand everything she said. I feel and experience that same cognitive dissonance if something goes against my values, and I will not be a sheep that just goes along with the herd. If something does go against my Fi values, I can overlook it if the argument is rational and makes Te sense. But if something goes against my Fi values and it doesn't make any Te sense either, then the beast is unleashed. Lol. Fi inferior is even more vulnerable I guess that Te needs to defend it even more fiercely. The main difference between me and other Fi users is that you can get me to overlook my own values if your argument makes Te rational sense. Most of the time, I'm a slave to logic rather than values. Higher Fi users can indeed look selfish, childish and stupid to me.
Please, don't typebash. If you are so against high-Fi people, perhaps you should do some personal development. That sounds like repressed feelings to me...
@@aniokay same sounds to me, you are totally right... Ironic is, types of persons like this op is are the most childish and immature actually, they just hide it inside because they now it would be unbearable for others but mostly for them to handle it. That's why they despise it in others.
@@aniokayI'm not against Fi people. I merely offered my perspective. You can ignore it or let it affect you, that's your choice to make. You're only unwittingly serving to prove my last point, which I didn't ask for, but thanx.
@@joshuavanderrheede4469 Yeah, it does sound like we are coming from different perspectives. I don't think that proves your last point 🙂
@@joshuavanderrheede4469 Actually, come to think of it, it sounds like you are basing the concept of being a grown up with the need to repress your own feelings and wants. Otherwise, why would you think that high Fi is childish?
We have been formed by society to believe that having emotions is something that you grow out of and that's it's only okay to show them on special occations, where you get a free pass (weddings, funerals, etc).
But as animals, we have developed feelings to help us to navigate the world (what is bad for you, what is good for you). It's one of the basic survival strategies for moving animals. But as we have come to develop an understanding of civilisation and society as being apart from nature, it has become more and more taboo with feelings. Feelings being put as an opposite to the rational human being. This is an old way of looking at the human race. Eventually the understanding of the human race is going to go more and more towards an understanding that we humans are a part of nature and that repressing and suppressing our nature and our emotions only causes bad stuff to happen, both on an individual level and on a societal level (trauma create the worst humans in our society, most dictators come from traumatic upbringings and are full of suppressed and repressed emotions).
As an INTJ with strong Fi (and hardly any Fe!) this made sense. I have strong personal convictions. I don't depend on what others think or believe, but I don' just believe whatever I want. I test things against my internal and external reality: does this belief make sense right to the core of my personal experience and of the whole world? But I can also experiment: what would it be like to believe this or that? I think I am a 5w4 in Enneagram terms, and I seem to remember hearing that Fi is important there. So yes, this was very interesting.
Intj here as well
I don’t think what she described only happened to Fi-dom though. Fe-dom can also have difficulty going back. But since Fi is not our dominant function, lots of other functions such as Se or Fe can override the Fi so we can still get along with that person. But for Fi-dom, once the decision is made, there won’t any function more powerful than Fi to make her change her mind.
Ah, yes. The struggles of us Southern girls with Fi. Thank you so much for this 💖
Fi thoroughly explained. It's like pain in the chest. Like putting poison in the mouth. It's like betrayed feeling.Thank you. ❤ISFP🙏
I've had Fe friends think I was "too sensitive" when employing my Fi. Feels so invalidating and manipulative when they've said that.
In the end, Fi users such as this lady here employ a trait which Fe users & others should all practice more of in certain areas of life; valuing yourself more than others, which is of course so highly stigmatized in contrast to the modern level of self-absorbtion that often underlies the supposed "harmony" motive behind group cohesion.
Revealing explanation! The challenge is when an Fi user is very faithful to their inner congruence but not aware or curious about other people’s needs around them and the concessions other people might be making for them - can become a toxic one-sides dynamic that yes, serves the authenticity of the Fi user.
Thank you! This helps me so much with my ENFP daughter. She's 10. iNTP and so no Fi at all. But I can understand her NE FI and support her needs. Let me say, that I love being an INTP mom because I get to research my children's cog functions. I get to try to understand people so different than me. I get to put being a good mother at a higher value point than my own personality. It's like my two top functions are PA (parenting), MB (my Meyers Briggs type). The second supports the other and gets filtered through it.
Wow. That was intense. I'm surrounded by Fe users in my house and it's so hard for me. They don't understand why I'm the way I'm and why I say NO to a lot of things. I'm constantly being judged and considerated rigid. But the fact is that I care too much about understanding what is right and what is wrong, and after I learn, I can't "undo" and live with no principles.
They all fight with me because of my values and I didn't do anything to them; they just don't agree and attack me, and when I start to feel really bad, they say I'm too sensitive. Anyway, story of my life hahah (sorry for the bad english)
Omg that was so awesome ❤ thank you . I am Fi first and Ne second. I have always tried to understand the Fe perspective. It comes across offensively sometimes and hurtful, kind of feels like betrayal. But I know it isn’t actually meant to be hurtful, Fe just doesn’t know what they’re doing. When I first found out that Fi is considered to be selfish I felt “no, that can’t be, whoever said it must be out of their mind”. But now that I have learned about Fe I realize that the selfishness aspect is ONLY in comparison to what the Fes perspective is, without using the Fes perspective, you wouldn’t see the Fi as selfish. What Fe does is it will try to convince the Fi to change, tell the Fi that she is wrong, that she is hurtful, and that she is making the wrong decision, and basically putting lots of unwarranted pressure on the Fi; In simple occasions this situation might feel antagonistic, but in serious situations, the antagonism triples down into feeling like you’re being betrayed by the Fe. It’s hard to even understand what is happening, and why the Fe is acting that way, and there may be a fall-out of the relationship. I would like to know and see what it is like for Fi and Fe to get along in a group setting, how that would be negotiated successfully; seems like as long as the relationship remains surface-level you can keep the peace in the relationship, but once you try to discuss anything serious or personal things can get fiery, hurtful, painful and you just want to quit the relationship. I believe there are just waaay too many presumptions about each other to be able to get along correctly, Fi is looking down at self with a microscope and feels responsible for that, Fe is looking outwards at an entire ocean of people and feels responsible for that. So when they’re both on the same boat there can be a lot of clashes.
Fi but it was physically safer for me to do what other people wanted me to do so i have learned
As an ENTP with regards to the event, I would ask myself if I need to go. If not I would simply not go and would not have any turmoil over it. If I had to go I would go. I wouldn't spend as much time hashing over it. I would simply go if necessary and not go if not necessary.
As an ISTP I can't understand why it seems sometimes people aren't allowed to say no. Carol had said she didn't want to attend as it goes against her values. This would be sufficient for me, it's her decision.
We are all different and have different values and thoughts and it is up to us as individuals how we want to proceed with life.
That's what makes the world so great and varied. People are amazing.
Where I might fall short there will be someone who has that strength and vice versa. We all make the world go around. 😎
Well, this was an eye opener. I know EXACTLY what she's talking about. I've always been quite 'go-with-the-flow' with things in general, but when I feel pressured to do something that feels 'wrong' to my sense of morality I'm like a brick wall. In those moments no amount of tribe rejection is going to change my mind.
Great insight, thank you, Carol! 😍
at 4:52 with her example, was wondering something. I'm an INTP (as far as I know) so I do have Fe. Though it's lower in my stack, I have developed it over the years a lot and nowadays I feel I have quite good grasp of it as far as social skills go, have also developed my Fi. The thing I don't get about this example: to me that sounds a bit like a principle, also could be logical consistency or consistency of thought. If one feels that they have faced great injustice by this organizer and they should go to this event by that same organizer... unless they have to because it's mandatory for work or equivalent huge reason, like why would one go?
I do things for Fe-reasons and say things and do things that other people or the group harmony needs, at times not consistent with my personal wants. But if an individual is affected by an injustice towards them by something or another, I think it's quite logical not to think it as a "non-event". Am I missing something?
My question is can this also be about injustice, not exclusively Fi? 🤓 Not trying to offend anybody, or question her type, just asking! 💖
Well articulated description of the personal experience of Fi. Thank you.
CAROL!!!! WE LOVE CAROL!!! ❤️ 😆😆😁
ANOTHER BANGER VIDEO AS ALWAYS JOYCE!! VERY INFORMATIVE!! 😁
Thanks so much for watching!! ❤
Great explanation of Fi Fe dichotomy its a shame the friend in the story couldn't give Carol the room to be herself
It is always interesting to see how my ESFJ mom and ESFP brother are constantly fighting. But what is interesting is how they talk past each other. But I can clearly see how what she says applies there, how my brother often feels that what she asks of him would betray everything he is. So he would make a big deal out of seemingly absurd things, but to him they are very important things. So it seems like my mom is bullying him on telling him how to behave, trying to always keep the peace for everyone. She always wants to ensure everyone acts a certain way, so peace could be kept in our family. As an ENTP myself, I might calmly argue if I do not agree with what she wants me to do, and we get each other through our Ti... But for my ESFP brother, he just explodes. But I can see why, to me I can easily argue my way out of it. But to my ESFP brother, the mere fact she wants to control who he is, is extremely painful.
But on the other side, my brother's Te is extremely overbearing. So my ESFP can be a bit controlling to others on what they should believe. Which doesn't go well with me nor my mother. But goes well with my ISTJ father. So they often talk through Te, while I am there thinking, they are jumping to conclusions way too fast. This is how things should be, this is how it must be done, this is what we should believe... and me on the side "why?"
It is interesting to see how functions clash, especially how Extroverted functions clash with their Introverted counterpart. Because to the Introverted function, the extroverted one might seem to want to control them. Both my mom and my brother had no bad intentions with any of it. They just did not get each other at all. And what my mom did to my brother with Fe, he did with others with Te. But he was completely blind to it. That is why ExFPs can be mistaken with ExTPs, due to their Te. That is why it is also important to see what kind of feeling they use. But then, my Ne bullies his Ni, and his Se bullies my Si. It is all an interesting dynamic. But what is important, is that no one is actually intentionally bullying anyone, it is all perspective. Because externalizing our extroverted functions is easy, but our introverted ones are dear to us.
That is why MBTI is so powerful, you learn how people interact with or see the world. Because without it, one might think people are out to get them. My brother used to think that my mom was always out to get him, because he was the only one that made a big deal of her Fe. But now, he realized that that is how she is with everyone. I used to not be able to understand nor connect with my brother in any way, until I learnt about MBTI, and how his brain works. And now we even hang out together and have been able to understand each other.
Almost everyone is incapable of seeing things from the perspective of other people, and it is easy to ascribe bad intentions from those that seem to not get us.
Very well thought out and stated.
How did you alter your way of acting (if you did) to be able to hang out with your brother?
What did you connect on?
I have an entp son and a esfp husband (entps step-dad).
Just trying to see a common ground they might have.
(Don't know what I am, but I selftest intj, been tested as an enfp and isfj. lol)
@@dogdonut3 i think u are isfj
@@himanshi1970 You might be right. But to agree with you I'd have to disagree with Joyce who typed me as an enfp. 🤷🏼♀️
@@dogdonut3 so why are u confused if are already typed by her.
@@himanshi1970 I got typed by Eric Strauss (Talking With Famous People) as an isfj.
I figure if the professionals are confused by me, I can be too. Lol
Seriously, it's not that important to me to be classified as one particular personality type. I enjoy finding out about them all and the psychology that goes along with the personalities is interesting to me too.
Carol’s description of Fi totally matches how I think of it! Somehow that makes me feel more understood… So thank you Carol for sharing your insights. And thank you Joyce for presenting the topic. As an INFP, when things start to feel Very Visceral, I know I’m being being informed of the important values from within, values I myself can’t even put into proper words… It’s as if my conscience is saying through an energetic knowing: “Hey You! You better listen up!… And if you don’t… well, that’s on you. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.”
It is important, not to confuse the Fi function with egocentrism, which unfortunately, often occurs, both among its owners and Fe users, who interact with them.😞
It happens that Fe types perceive Fi as focused only on themselves, not interested in others.
Sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not.
The question is, how to tell the difference.❓
As a heavy Fe user (ISFJ), I am trying to develop Fi, but despite 55 years behind me, with rather poor results.
So the mysterious world of Fi still remains for me an uncharted territory.🔒
Thank you for an interesting conversation with the guest.😀
(ISTP) Excellent excellent example! Understood it crystal clear.
I am an infj, and my husband is enfp. Sometimes we really clash, but we change roles. And it was vice versa just a month ago.
I said i want to leave my own small birthday party for 2 hours to go to my dance class and then get back (bc i love it, i don't want to skip that, it is MY bday, i deserve to have good time, right?!) and he was so on the fence with me, as if he had HUGE Fe going on me. Gosh, i felt such rage. I always had to do what needed, and now i just want to live the way i want to. I am not being disrespectful to my guest (those being just 5 relatives of his who live nearby and we see each other all the time). We could have spent 2 hours together, then i would have left and they wouldn't even noticed! And then i would have got back. Win-win. C'mon!!
He was so uptight. I think its his trauma: his parent's good good boy. His mother and sister are both ESFJ and they are very much about family rules.
If they came in your honor then it’s disrespectful to not even be there. Plus it’s a special day, you can go dance on any day of the week.
@@orangeziggy348 what do you mean "not even be there"? Have you read the comment?
I don't share your view. You can do that if you wish. I value my boundaries and I don't have to please someone when it's against my will. I show respect otherwise.
I thought just like you several years ago and it led me to despair and self hate. I lost myself. Now I do my duties, but I consciously make effort to protect my will. Believe me, being a person with high Fe who learns to respect my fi, sometimes is hard. But if I do not, I feel like nobody. I now first take care of myself.
My birthday means I have to be honored by doing what I like. If someone doesn''t like it, they do not respect me.
Joyce!!!!! This is a Beautiful NF party of love 🎉❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉 they really can and it’s almost like looking into a funnel from either side and thinking that you should be seeing the same thing. Inside matching you’re doing and saying yes it’s feels awful!!!!!! ❤❤
Best explanation. Ever.
The joke is this ENFP’s Ne Te is the bully to her INFJ friend’s Ni Ti.
The truth is we all get humbled both ways. The extroverted functions always unintentionally “bullies” the introverted functions. This time it was just her Fi’s turn to be victimized.
Bingo
I thought I was an isfp but… I’ve been very inauthentic for fear of man. I’ve noticed now that I’m actually scared to share opinions (even stupid ones) unless I know everyone else’s opinions first and can tailor my response accordingly. A close friend at work was super liberal. I’m super conservative. We still keep in touch since having been fired (crummy company lol), but I never told her or disagreed with her ever. I think it’s because so many of the values that I disagreed with were her on were deeply tied to her identity. It would be like I was rejecting *her*. Also, I hated to break our friendship bc I suck at making friends and she’s really great. She hates people that think like me though, and I don’t think I could tell her now after nearly a year since meeting her. But also, I can’t not right??
That seems like an ISTP they share their opinions with closed members otherwise they stay opinionless unless obviously it brings great injustice or affects people negatively
If she later finds out what you really feel, that could hurt her too. She may feel like you didn't trust her with the truth of who you are.
But maybe she wouldn't be upset to find out how you feel at all (obviously I don't know her or you). That's a tough spot to be in. I hope you can find a solution that works for you.
My petsonal thought is it's ok to believe different things or hold different opinions and still be friends. Both of you will learn valuable things.
I would want to know what my friend truly thinks. I wouldn't want to feel like I steamrolled someone into not speaking their truth.
Hi Sam, sorry to hear about your situation! When examining this under a typology lens, this is still compatible with being a Fi user. As a Feeling valuing type, you will care about preserving the harmony in your relationships and this can make you conflict avoidant and inauthentic in certain situations. (this is also a potential sign you may be an Enneagram 9!)
@@dogdonut3 thank you for the well thought out reply. Yeah it probably will hurt her on that level as well bc she’s an open book. I just wished I’d said something initially
@@Sam-bc9ll I empathize. It's not always easy to know what's best.
Hope it works out ok for you.
Some fi users don't understand other fi users' values either.
My insides never match what I'm doing and saying when people are present. Never ever. I wonder what that would feel like. INTP
Ask an ISFP.
I see it all of the times with friends and family that have Fi and it's confusing.
I never feel that deeply about anything lol
INTP
As an INTP, society made me feel like being this way is wrong even though I don't know how else to express myself.
I'm attempting to be more "authentic", but even now I think that my way of going about it is to check in with other people's feelings first no matter who I run into... even if I don't want to, it's like an itch that I can't seem to get rid of.
How can I be genuine if I don't know what that means to me in the first place?
@Moondust That sounds more like they're selfish/self-centered thing rather than specifically an Fi thing. Talking about only the topics your interested in isn't what Fi is about.
@@user-zw1ry6nb4j ...that's why/what the whole "self help/self development/personal growth" field exists... and with as much information is available, unless you live in a communist country, how can you not?
Can't your Fi develop tho at some point if you're actively trying to? It was funny when that lady said it would need divine intervention to make us do something. What if it was religious faith that makes ya want to improve? Ahh then that may supersede that Fi a smidge n make ya look outward
If I understand you right religion could be a “force” towards change? Could be, I remember many times as a child having that Fi struggle, because of “the religious ways” and having to succumb to what was expected/valued.
As my Christian faith grew it was painfully obvious that my Fi was extremely low (entj)😆 very hard cuz im like a fish out of water BIG time but yet at the same time its been worth it🌻
Yes, a connection to God will supercede the cognitive functions at important times. Not always because we are supposed to be unique in our personality. I'm glad you brought God into this. DearKristin sometimes does
Preach
Still confused if Fi or Fe is more natural to me…..I wonder if growing up in an Asian household I was forced to use my Fe and I think that triggered the Fi in me …but maybe….is Fe is just low on my function stack? And am I using Fi to protect myself? …. 😪 lol .
This video makes me want to watch Karate Kid.
Ignoring Fi morals is the same as ignoring a part of who they are and pretending to be someone else, that's traumatic and causes dissociation. Fe users who are dissociated from their Fi will find this easy to do, due to their own trauma issues in childhood. So its got nothing to do with selfishness, its about self realisation. Realising how rejecting a part of your humanity is traumatising for everyone, and should never be a go to expectation or way of living. Its very sad to hear that Fe users are so disconnected from their Fi they dont see the pain they inflict on themselves.
This comment! Very very true
I'm INFP and I completely understand where she's coming from. That being said, I thought ENFPs used Fe as a dominant function.
Youre thinking of enfjs. All fp types use fi in either the dominant or auxiliary positions
Ne is their dominant function.
@@qamoos22 Thank you for your reply.