Chulane vs God-Eternal Kefnet vs Pramikon vs The First Sliver EDH / CMDR game play
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- Опубліковано 10 вер 2024
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Pramikon doesn't force anyone to do anything. Pramikon instead disallows everyone to attack anywhere except for one place. Another Pramikon would disallow attacking everywhere other than this one other place, including the original only-allowed place. Meaning that with both two Pramikons in play that have chosen the opposite directions would result in nobody being able to attack anyone.
I loved doing that in my Pramikon superfriends deck. As soon as I got Spark double out it was over.
@@Arcdemon44 There is also a white enchantment that has the same effect, so if you're looking for a total lock, that is also an auto include.
That is true except if it comes down to a 2 person game, where 1 (or 2) praminkons does nothing, as the person to your left is also the person to your right
What about if there is only 1 player. And you have the attack ‘lock’
It's not stated much but Mathias has Goblin diplomats which taps to force combat, so I think that was happening a lot.
The way the 2 pramikons work was done correctly. Under the gatherer magic card rulings for Pramikon, "If two Pramikons on the battlefield disagree on which direction three or more players must attack, players can’t attack at all."
Narset's Reversaling the Arcane Denial and not the Time Warp hurt my soul
This was a LONG game. It was about 2hrs or so, people were pretty tired by the end haha.
Narset's reversal is such a good spell overall. It can literally be any blue spell you need it to be at the time that you've casted it.
@@Devilish420 *claps* I noticed this the second it was spoiled. I picked up several foil copies for when the price inevitably spikes :) She shines in my Kefnet deck while under Isochron Scepter
@@DivinePenguin00 Honestly, this is the 2nd time ever seeing that spell for me, the 1st being playing edh with some of my buddies and a new player to the group used it but didn't really comprehend the power Narset's reversal really had or else there would be a copy in every blue colored deck I have lol
@@Devilish420 oddly enough, it is one of my favorite spells in my Narset list because it helps to mitigate the fact that counterspells are nearly useless to run as well as allowing me to copy free extra turn spells while simultaneously putting them back into my hand to use a second time. It is SO good, and it is probably one of my favorite spells of all time alongside Wild Ricochet, Manamorphose, and Growth Spiral. I love those tempo/value plays that cycle through my lists and inevitably support my favorite splashy plays like Mind's Desire and Thousand-Year Storm.
Fred: THIRD LAND FINALLY!!!
Milan: Yeah, about that....
Miguel at the end: I’m drowning in those !
Can't believe Milan took Fred's land when he watched him struggle for land drops the entire game.
Thought the same, specially with a Harmonic in play
Payback for blowing up his Greaves with Harmonic Sliver.
While it's definitely a painful move, it was probably the correct one. A First Sliver deck firing on all cylinders is brutal.
totally the right move against that deck, though
It is what it is
I was staring at that Kefnet deck knowing it had an extra turn spell in hand and was on the verge of winning for most of the game duration.
Mathias did an excellent job keeping that deck under control with the Rifts. I think that deserves to be said. 😁
Thanks
I'm confused by the evacuation, since it didn't really hurt anyone but the sliver player. Plus I'm confused by the main phase cycling when kefnet wants to be drawing on other players turns for extra triggers..
Cudos to having 5 pain lands only in play lol
Lesson of the day: unless you're at your third mulligan or something like that, NEVER keep a hand that relies on topdecking a land in order to do anything.
Duly noted, learn the hard way I guess...😅
After editing this video, I bet Muddstah added "decks with win conditions" to his Christmas wish list. :)
*Looks at Kynaios and Tiro deck
Nah, Commander damage is win con enough
Being a little more explanatory about Pramikon:
Its ability says "each player may only attack the nearest opponent in the chosen direction", which translates into "players can't attack unless they're attacking the nearest opponent in the chosen direction". Because of this, if there are two Pramikon choosing different directions, each one will forbid the other's attacks, which will prevent players from attacking at all...
...at least until there are only two players at the table, in which case the opponent is the nearest both left and right.
Fred kept a hand with 2 lands on a 5 color deck without ramp... I mean, what?
Facts
Ça ressemble à Dan qui garde 2 lands dont un Gaea's Cradle ça hahahah
C_Clop tu parles français ?
In a deck with only 32 lands...
@@lunatik_8929 Ouep! Je répondais à JD, c'est un ami hehe.
Man I really just appreciate those handshakes at the end. I think you can tell a lot about a person based on their handshake, and Muddstah's players always have very friendly and genuine ones. Really shows respect for your opponents and enthusiasm for the game.
Thank you, love to see the Pramikon deck putting some work. It's always great when you see a match with a new Commander Deck you are working on.
Alot of the gameplay are great.
However, alot of Mathias' actions were so puzzling. Not sure why he wanted to stop all attacks by cloning Pramikon when he's in a better position. Not sure why he didn't counter Omniscience in the first place. It felt like he gave the game away to Chulane.
The cloning was bad and not countering the omniscience was because i was tired and didn't realized i had a counterspell in hand at that point. Also, i kind of wanted the chulane deck to win with lab man by drawing his while deck which is pretty nuts instead of letting kefnet win off a combo which i knew he was likely to do and i couldn't stop both after letting the omniscience resolve😅.
Maybe there's something wrong with me but I absolutely love seeing God-Eternal Kefnet gameplay. It's almost like a ticking "time" bomb that everyone else is trying to stop.
That's exactly how it feels playing GE Kefnet.
On the flip side for me, Chulane is public enemy number one every single time someone pulls that deck out.
This was actually fun, even for blue combo decks. Each player interacting and messing each other up made it enjoyable.
Milan bounced his own stuff when he overload the Cyclonic rift
We were all tired by the end of this game lol
i've been thinking about early turn sol ring sequencing, especially since a t1 sol ring has an impact on threat assessment
i paused the video at miguel's opening hand and said to myself "i would play a basic and pass turn 1, then play a basic, Sol Ring, and Paradise Druid turn 2". i think that not having a defenseless Sol Ring out for a round is worth sacrificing whatever the narrow odds are that you draw a 4-drop. there's a line somewhere between "my opening hand has a myriad landscape, a basic, a sol ring, and 4 nonlands" (where the non-t1 Ring is obvious) and "my opening hand has at least one basic, a sol ring, and lightning greaves" (where t1 sol ring is obviously correct), and it's often less simple than "play the ring turn 1 if you can".
Richard Blocher u over thinking it bro
Fred gets bonus points from me for toughing it out... I would have probably rage quit after 9:28
I see a lot of angry comments about Milan stealing one of Fred's lands with Blatant Thievery... about that, a few things:
1. Fred totally deserved it when he blew up Milan's Lightning Greaves, even if that was the correct thing to destroy at the time;
2. Stealing Harmonic Sliver would do nothing, as all of Fred's slivers would continue to have the ETB trigger even if he didn't control it;
3. Keeping the First Sliver player from having access to all five colors so that they can't cascade out of control is a very efficient way of keeping them in check.
Exactly. A real magic player would've taken Fred's land.
agreed. It's harsh but it was right
Wait, you can flicker Evoke creatures in response to the sac trigger? That is something I did not know, but my Ephara deck is pleased to learn.
Yes, you can respond to the evoke trigger by bouncing or flickering the creature, or even sacrificing it to something else.
Oh yeah it's a super common trick in Pauper to flicker an evoked Mulldrifter to draw 4 for 4 mana.
What the others said. The creature will enter the battlefield like normal. After entering the evoke trigger goes on the stack, so the card will exist there while the trigger is on the stack to sacrifice it. All to say you can do all sorts of nonsense with that.
@@TheArbiter1999 not so common anymore after the banhammer though :p
With Bant being my favorite color combination, it was nice to see a well piloted Chulane deck. Lab Man wins are most common with him, especially while running Alluren, but it's a super fun deck to play and gets very involved during your turns.....or everyone elses with Anticipation/Orrery + Seedborn :)
Honestly, I think it could be possible to run a Flash Aggro list with Chulane for shiggles. He has so many built-in tempo elements that I really want to build it now.
Excluding infinite combos, there are a bunch of faster and easier win cons for Chulane. At several points in the game, Miguel could've won the game through an X=10+ Finale of Devastation targeting Pathbreaker Ibex to give all creatures he controls +23/+23, trample and haste. Unfortunately, Pathbreaker Ibex isn't in the deck. Craterhoof can be combined with Finale as well, often dealing a decent amount of damage on its own already. But it also isn't in the deck.
As for Leyline of Anticipation/Vedalken Orrery decks, I don't think Chulane is a good choice for that. Not only is Bant's ability to find Enchantments or Artifacts quite limited, you'd still need to assemble the combo first and then also have cards that actually synergize with it. That's way too much setup and build-around requirements to work consistently. I think you're way better off with a "Main Phase"-deck that features a small, but strong suite of countermagic to defend its board state.
In cEDH lab man isn't even run in Chulane. Once you can draw your deck Via Cloudstone Curio, Intruder Alarm, Alluren, or Earthcraft there's no need to have a Laboratory Maniac because you have enough mana for Finale of Devastation to kill everyone due to trample and haste after having your deck in your hand. Just a neat optimization thing a lot of people don't seem to realize.
@@johnwilliams-is9yj But finale is so expensive right now man, cant see of any other reliable win outside of lab man
You should've jokingly added sliver to every card name in Fred's opening hand.
What a game! That was an amazing game with great interaction and a good amount of creature shenanigans. Great job boys. Thanks for sorting through all the triggers and counters MTG Muddstah, you really made this game possible to follow even with all the triggers and abilities on the stack.
This video puts on full display the exact reason my friend hates Mistmeadow Witch so much. It's almost impossible to get rid of. In hindsight, they probably should have removed it with the exile effects on the stack earlier.
It is also very expensive to use repeatedly. I wouldn't include it in a deck unless it had a place in some really spice value combos.
@@sebastianahrens2385 In a long game like this the repeated mistmeadow activations can have a powerful effect on the game. The faster the meta, the worse the card.
@@sebastianahrens2385 training grounds goes a long way with that. true, you can never count on having both, but 2 less for any activated ability works nicely with many cards, just like mistmeadow witch. also: really spice value combos... like the good old "enter the battlefield" ally cards? may or may not have made a for fun casual 5 color ally deck complete with warp world...
I really liked the deck. I think the players did a good job in keeping the others in check when possible. Not countering Omniscience... well, it's happened. We've all lost in a turn that we could've changed if we were more awake or concentrated.
When Fred got his 5th pain land and then trapped then all for mana, he never took the 5 damage. But then gained the three for the attack putting him at 28 instead of 23.
My friends: Nick, why are you playing cards like Rule of Law? That’s no fun
Me: Let me introduce you to Miguel
Great game as always, thanks Muddstah! Don’t know what kind of holiday you celebrate, but happy holidays all the same to you!
TBH I would hate games to be unnecessarily long because of cards like Rule of Law (When played late game). Although I do agree that Chulane is also an OP commander compared to the other brawl commanders.
Suzuki I think that it’s just a meta choice. For me, we play a lot of high power decks that look to chain a bunch of spells together (Chulane, Animar, Kess, etc). So, I play them as a way to keep the combos under control. In a less powerful meta, yeah I agree RoL is just unnecessary and draws the game out with no point
@@noalsono8481 Does that Kess list exist somewhere online? I'm thinking about building a deck with her and always looking for strong lists.
don't see how they're related here. one is an unfun card, the other is a player who, in this game, played a boring value commander and happened to win.
@@kdchmln I don't mean to be offensive, but you sound a bit salty. People can choose whatever they want to play. I'm playing Chulane myself and find the deck anything but boring. The relation between the two is Chulane playing a load of creatures in a single turn btw, which would be shut down very effectively by a Rule of Law-effect.
Just what I needed for this evening! Merry Christmas Muddstah! 🎅
Merry Christmas Affinity! Yall upload any edh games recently?
Last Monday was our last gameplay video, with something special coming out in about an hour! 😀
@@AffinityForCommander yea I saw last monday's vid it was cool and cant wait for the special. Oh yea I also decided to just put oloro in my aminatou flicker deck just because that deck gains life pretty fast too.
Awesome! Let us know how it works out! 😄
@@AffinityForCommander oh I shall XD
looking into this game I've noticed something: "In the outskirts of an unidentified plane, Volrath discovers the race of highly symbiotic creatures named Slivers. Going deep into the history of these marvelous creatures Volrath and his team find the origin of all this, a unique creature that is less associated with his companions; the primordial exemplar of this species that is a key to this specific evolution process... FRED, THE FIRST SLIVER!".
One of the best edh gameplay producers !
PS : Iwould liove to see a vorel of the hull clade deck again.
This game was stupid. Near the end, the qualifier I came up with was "It looks like two of these decks are trying to win with Lab Maniac without using infinite combos and refuse to be proactive whatsoever otherwise". I didn't expect to actually hit the mark...
Also, it felt really bad for Fred (and Milan I assume? At least he had stuff to do, but his turns seemed very short too compared to the other two).
New Judge here : with 2 opposed pramikon, nobody can attack anymore :) just like you did.
he shoulda used narset reversal to bounce his own time warp then he would have been able to get the original back and cast the copy off of reversal
That counter battle over the time warp made it all worth it.
I ❤ Chulaine!
Can include lots of combos like Spike feeder - angel of Thune and such. Can build it tribal or get silly and use it to throw your opponents off with a non-linear build.
some minor things
At 12:55 with the double evacuation:
mathias wanted to take a shortcut and his actions usually are done by doing the "smartest thing". resolving the first blink and then the other instead of putting both on the stack. this would mean one creature (chosen by milan) should have avoided the bounce.
"Whenever a player adds an object to the stack, he or she is assumed to be passing priority unless he or she explicitly announces that he or she intend to retain it. If he or she adds a group of objects to the stack without explicitly retaining priority and a player wishes to take an action at a point in the middle, the actions should be reversed up to that point." MTR 4.2 Tournament Shortcuts
at 17:14: the thorn mammoth fights the might sliver and the sliver has non-keyword "lifelink". fred should be getting life equal to the damage
lab man saves the day and the time of muddstah
Came here to watch Chulane, stayed here for Pramikon. That deck impressed me.
Interesting game. Two hard control decks, a psuedo control/interaction deck, and a combat/agro deck that couldn't get started. I'm sure this took an eternity to edit and cut. Thanks Muddstah!
OMG I'm in love with december just for all those videos XD tks for all this videos.
As a long time Sliver Commander. I was excited to see a first sliver game. Then I was disappointed to see they kept such a bad hand. Always go for lands in wubrg, always!
Still waiting to see a Chulane deck that doesn’t win by decking themselves. Great game
Muddstah!
Then you will be impressed with my Chulane deck. I built Chulane adventures :)
Yes, it has all 21 adventure cards in the colors in there. Yes, it's pretty jank. Yes, it always gets mad props when people look at it.
I have Chulane flickers with several tutors to find Champion of Lambholt which is usually my wincon (make everyone unblockable with a huge Champion, and swinging for lethal with a Lumbering Battlement or Ulvenwald Hydra, maybe a Pathbreaker Ibex or Finale of Devastation to help out at the end.
Narset's reversal is such a Damn good blue spell. It can literally be any blue spell you need it to be at the time you cast it.
Technically, it can be any instant or sorcery spell, regardless of color. It cannot be a blue creature spell, though.
@@sebastianahrens2385 wait, there are blue creatures? Never saw one
I can't understand sacrificing Stonecloaker after only one cast. The self-bouncers are basically broken in Chulane when you repeatedly cast them by bouncing themselves. Like he did with Shrieking Drake. Well, maybe I'm undervaluing Beast Whisperer, since I play Seedborn Muse.dek with Chulane, so the flash bounce creatures are usually the best thing ever.
How long did it take to make this video???
About 15hrs?
@@MTGMuddstah dang well thanks for the video it was very well done. Thank you👍
@@MTGMuddstah Amazing work as always! Hope to see more in the future!
@@MTGMuddstah was that a joke or did it really take that long :o
That's about how long it takes. I outline my process in my "How I make games" video that was published a few months back.
Lol I like how they all have these Oui~ Oui~ names. And then there's Fred lol
I'm curious why this is the most viewed video. I see it all the time in my recommended feed
The ruling with 2 pramikons is that you can only attack if both conditions are met, i.e. your opponent is to the right AND to the left of you, which would only happen when it gets down to 1v1
why would fred keep that hand it has no ramp or card draw
23/08/2019 If two Pramikons on the battlefield disagree on which direction three or more players must attack, players can’t attack at all.
Why diddnt he target the extra turn spell with narsets reversal in response to the swan song :o
The First Sliver had me like “no pain, no game!”
"If two Pramikons on the battlefield disagree on which direction three or more players must attack, players can’t attack at all.
" - 08/23/19
That game was insane
Would it be possible to add an arrow to indicate the legal attack direction when it's relevant for Pramikon?
Boy Fred really managed to make us renowned and well loved Sliver players look bad!
Twice today I've seen a spicy narsets reversal played on someone. I think I need a couple of them in my decks!
Idk what Fred was thinking with that opening hand but there's no way I would pull that without at least a manaweft or gemhide in hand. It hurt watchin such self destruction go down 😢.
22:43 Why did Milan bounce his own stuff too?
Also, the turn before that, could Mathias have tried to kill Milan by playing Spark Double copying Peregrine Drake, flickering Pramikon and Spark Double before attacking Milan for lethal, then having Pramikon and Spark Double return to play to lock down everyone else's attacks?
He would have been able to flicker them on his own turn to unlock combat, and the Witch with Avacyn would have protected his permanents from a lot of disruption
And Fred definitely unlocked an achievement by having only painlands in play, lol. I was like "what the hell, is he running Slivdrazi Monstrosity or something"
Miguel's Chulane was beautiful and now I want to build Chulane.
Thanks my list is in the video if you need idea
Thanks for the video! :) ANd Merry Xmas!
Scryfall says...:
If two Pramikons on the battlefield disagree on which direction three or more players must attack, players can’t attack at all.
(2019-08-23)
If no choice was made for Pramikon (perhaps because it’s actually Volrath, the Shapestealer in an impressively clever disguise), its last ability has no effect.
(2019-08-23)
In a multiplayer game, players may use any mutually agreeable method to determine seating order after they’ve chosen decks but before the game begins. If players can’t agree (perhaps because Pramikon has them worried about who their nearest opponent is), players should be seated randomly.
Why were there "pre-lifelink slivers" after Essence Sliver was played? I looked up the rulings but all that I learned was that "gain life when deals damage" and lifelink are slightly different and can stack together.
I meant pre-lifelink as in the ability that Essence Sliver grants being similar to what would eventually become Lifelink.
Why would Fred not recast the first sliver before his others so they have cascade when they all got exiled
I love it when two blue players goes to a stack battle. Who wins with the best counters at the end? Stay tuned to find out.
I play 1st sliver too, but I would've never kept a 2 land hand without a green source and ramp spell or a Manaweft Sliver or a Gemhide Sliver
As a long time Sliver Overlord player, unless you have gemhide or manaweft in your opening hand, you DO NOT keep a two land hand, period.
Good stuff, as always!
That player has such a unique name. Are you sure you're pronouncing "Fred" correctly? ;) Merry Christmas, Andrew! :)
Loooove the hilarious commentary
Do you have any rules for your playgroups. Like a price cap or unofficial banlist? It always seems like the decks are pretty well balenced.
Nope!
I felt the length of the game and the length of Chulane's turns D:
Y'alls assumption is correct if they are too Pramikon's on the field choosing to separate directions no one can attack
Good lord! That's awful.
Unfortunately people have realize that and thanks to spark double and like it's become an issue in some local shop but y'all have a great Christmas
What a game! Loved it.
On TCGPlayer, i have tried two dofferent orders and was unable to find where to put in a promo code. I have been able to do so in the past but not as of today :(
Ian Beiber you don’t put a code in TCGPLAYER. There’s a link in the video description that you click and if you make an order after clicking it, you’ll contribute to helping the channel
@@MTGMuddstah ahh ok thanks lol
I wish everyone a merry xmas and fred couldnt find lands cause his name didnt start with a M.
what an anti-game milan stealing fred third land
Sliver player should have not kept that hand. Too many high cmc creatures and no ramp. Two land hands suck haha but hey a good rule would be to at be able to do something for the 1st 3 turns.
Nice game. I've never seen Pramicon being that obnoxious and (con)trolly (Although, in retrospect, I should've expected it, considering it's Jeskai), but all the same, nice game.
I think you should give bant a chance. It does support a wide field of strategies, from toolbox to control to aggro/voltron, and have plenty of strong, while not broken, staples and strategies. The trick to making it enjoyable, at least that I've found, is to take the generically good commanders, and build around them in unexpected directions. Don't do Derevi Orbs and Stasis, instead going for a +1/+1 counters strategy. Instead of running Rafiq as a straight up glasscannon voltron deck, try running him as a control deck. Things like that.
I wish I saw Pramikon in more games 😭
holy crap what a disgusting amount of value and card draw this game holy guacamole
That’s like the fairest way to win with Lab Man. Nice.
I think you meant December 2019 through January 2020 on the box giveaway ad
Why Omniscience resolved since mathias had swan song and arcane denial in hand? PS: i watched this video on mute! BTW nice video
I recently answered it higher but essentially, I forgot i had it in hand.
15:22 his llanowar elf had summoning sickness, did it not?
Narsets reversal should have gone to the time warp instead .... you get a new copy and you can cast it again
Поздрав за Милана!
So, it's going to sound mean, but I'm honestly glad Fred got so delayed by his lack of lands. The First Sliver is just so stupidly strong; it's a Maelstrom Wanderer on crack. It was a fun game, albeit I think it went a little long because everyone was being a bit too nice to each other. In our group, we have a rule that after Turn 8, the gloves come off and it's anything-goes.
Honestly, I think a well-built Chulane can outpace and overpower any Sliver tribal.
My Chulane deck has the same sleeves 😎
If two Pramikons on the battlefield disagree on which direction three or more players must attack, players can’t attack at all.
offical ruling on pramikon, nothing edited or changed straight from gatherer
Milan stealing fred's unclaimed territory is just hurtful to watch
When the might sliver fought he should have gained life right?
Sad that Milan didn't realise he would have been much better off using Narset Reversal on his Time Warp insted of trying to counter Arcane Denial.
Two hours in at that point, I think we can cut him some slack and give him a break.
Mathias, Milan, Miguel, and fred
A turn 16 C-rift just to stall the game out is such a dick move. This is why I hate playing long games because by the end, players just want it to end and when someone does shit like this it's so defeating mentally.
It actually worked in Miguel's favour.
Are you French Canadian?
As a frenchman of ex-youglavia decent I really don't know what to think of the way you pronounce Milan
MrManologrande as someone doing his best to pronounce it as accurately as he could based on how Milan introduce himself, I’m also not sure what to think.
@@MTGMuddstah Oh I'm sure you did your best and that's the way he pronounced it, no blame here, it's just to point out that I find it weird :) .
Nooo! I missed the giveaway!
I enjoyed this game.