I was going to leave a chastisizing comment telling Patricia to just let the nerds complain about the thing that annoys them before the irony whiplash hit me with the force of a baseball bat.
(Thanks to Ramanuj Sarkar for reformatting the text) Okay, so the guy ranting about dashless water movement was me and I want to clarify some things. Firstly, obviously what I said was exaggerated for comedic effect. However, in this particular case with dashless water, it is relatively unfun for casual play as well. However, it was the first time it was done in a map like this (AFAIK) which is pretty cool. I should probably explain why I was seemingly so irrationally mad by going into what TASing dashless water involves. I want to clarify that I actually find dashless water tech very interesting, and since that TAS was created, new tech was discovered to make it slightly faster but even more confusing. So, to explain why it's so bad I will first explain what makes feather movement unfun to TAS: Feathers are a vanilla mechanic that were hated by almost everyone, because instead of the usual four directions there are now 360 degrees of analog movement, in addition to the fact that there is very little interesting tech, mainly feather boosts at the start, and bonking into walls. This makes TASing a feather basically just manual bruteforcing, which is very boring. But a saving grace is that your speed is determined by your angle and you have a fixed magnitude of speed, so when you want to turn there are only two angles you need to optimise, the entry and the exit. Still most people didn't want to get involved with it in maingame when I got into the scene but I thought, "This is a TAS. It’s supposed to go fast, even the parts that are pretty tedious" and I decided to TAS it myself. I actually found it relatively interesting to TAS, especially the fact that you have such precision over your subpixel, meaning you could actually abuse rounding error in many cases after exiting the feather to save a frame. Due to this precision, it actually forced the dev of the TAS tool at the time to introduce analog movement that was accurate to what a controller was capable of, and introduce the square analog gate which allowed for feather boosting using the analog stick. Thanks to a guy called roboman, there is now a tool that uses a genetic algorithm to learn what the best feather route is through evolution, and this tool saved time on almost every feather in the game. I say all this to demonstrate that I am not someone who shies away from difficult or tedious TASing. There are other examples but it's already long enough as it is, and I haven’t even gotten to the dashless water part. So, feathers are bad and tedious for most people, but I like them right, how much worse can dashless water be? So much worse. I’ll explain the knowledge I had at the time, before explaining the new tech that could be used to make mossy caverns faster. As mentioned previously, when using a feather, if you’re going in a direction, you will move at a set speed corresponding to the angle you are holding, and if you change direction, your angle changes by 5.33 degrees per frame until you’re at the new angle. With a feather the x and y speeds are automatically calculated based off whatever this 5.33 degrees is so there is no way to achieve a magnitude of anything other than 190 speed, whether below or above. Water movement is not like this, well it sort of is. Your final speed is determined by the angle you’re holding but the intermediate speeds are not calculated every frame by some relation to an angle change. Instead, when you hold a different direction, the game calculates the speed you should be at and reduces your speed by 10 on each axis until you get there. But unfortunately for me this is very suboptimal, as there are angles in between where you move by 10 speed on one axis but you can move by less than 10 speed on another axis. I could go into the maths behind how this is the case, as it's just basic trig, but it’s not really necessary. The point is if you don't manually input the correct angle every frame when turning. you will lose more speed than necessary, and this timeloss massively compounds over multiple turns as you move so goddamn slowly that tiny errors can really amplify over long periods of time, especially because your max speed is 60 x speed and 80 y speed, and 10 speed is a very large fraction relative to those numbers. Additionally, at the time I was one of the few people that actually used decimal places in my feathers and part of the reason was that they were implemented very badly into the tools. For example, if I wanted to write 89.99, I could not just write it I would first have to write 8999 and add the decimal after. This was absolutely excruciating to do thousands of times. One thing I would often do is I would use excel to do an input angle and then find the subsequent angles and write them in. Unfortunately, due to float errors in Celeste, it is not possible to do this perfectly and every angle still needs to be bruteforced a bit. It was also possible to calculate how far I needed to move for a specific obstacle and work out what the perfect entry angle is but again, float errors prevent this from being infallible. Onto the new tech. So it was known at the time that if you enter the water with speed higher than the maximum on one of the axes it was possible to stay at a high diagonal speed by alternating holding a horizontal and vertical direction. For example, say I'm moving down and to the right, the max x speed in water is 60 and the max y speed is 80. If I am moving above 60 and 80, if I keep holding right, I will stay at 60 as my y speed drops and hits 80. When it dips below 80 to 70, I can now press down, and my x speed will drop to 50 but y will go up to 80 again. I press right again, and my y speed goes down to 70 and x back to 60 and so on over and over. This can be used to keep a speed much higher than would normally be possible. As it turns out it is possible to do this without starting at a high speed but for much less returns. For example, if I hold an angle of 56.443, I will have 50 x speed and -44.22 y speed. If I then hold right, I will have 60 x speed and -34.22 y speed which is much more than 0. There are multiple ways of combining it and different regions of angles for which it is correct. This is all very interesting, but it makes the process of TASing even more complicated and confusing. What's more, typically it is possible to set speed and position in normal TASing in order to theory craft what the best initial conditions are, but because the end depends on the input angle this is not possible. The complexity of the movement also makes it much harder to build a tool for and because it isn't relevant to maingame as there is literally one screen that involves actually going through water and you can dash, there isn’t really any incentive to work on one. It took me around a month of TASing multiple hours a day to finish mossy caverns and god knows how long it would take if I decided to revisit it. So obviously mappers can make dashless water maps if they want to, but they are a nightmare and I do not envy the person who makes a TAS if there is a dashless water level in strawberry jam.
I agree with your overall point, but I honestly think the commentators were just taking the piss. I don't think they were actually upset, just venting about how hard it was to do.
at the same time, joking complaints shows the community where their values are. they wouldn't make this joke about more exciting maps that were frustrating to TAS. this is how communities communicate what is important to them
@@undeniablySomeGuy Yeah. If you're not upset, what is it that you're "venting", exactly? That's kind of an oxymoronic statement right there, and the fact the person themselves latched onto it and agreed has me doubling down on the thought that they'd rather roll with this illogic if it gives them an out of having to be "Wrong" about something, in any context, to not have to apologize or even nod to a mistake. You can't really TAS your way out of human interactions, unfortunately.
@@YevhenRawrsWhat do you mean? Those guys probably spent like 5 hours doing and redoing the inputs for something they thought would be simple and got frustrated even thinking back on it. I really don't think it's that deep. Like people get annoyed when it's raining and they had plans, but that doesn't mean they _actually_ want it to never rain again.
I mostly agree with the points you made, but I will say I'm a bit confused about the bit referencing "RNG" as a strictly speedrunning-based term. Most of the contexts I've heard it used in are in games which have a habit of making the player do painful amounts of grinding. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but I don't think it's something that only speedrunners would naturally complain about.
Yeah most complaints about rng from non-speedrunners are about grind economies or about removal of player agency and control. I guess the latter is kind of also what the speedrunners are complaining about but it's for different reasons.
The main context in which I hear that complaint is competitive games, where being concerned about bad uses of RNG seems rather valid. Though I occasionally hear it for casual games, too. Though in that context what people are talking about seems to generally be more about "Random Bullshit" than the presence of RNG.
The autoscrollers in Super Mario Bros 3 were some of my favourite levels on my casual and only playthrough. By having the level set the pace and not Mario, you got this weaving between obstacles that the main levels didn't have. You couldn't run past a blaster, you had to deal with its projectiles. It was like a baby bullet hell in a Mario engine. They're great levels in a casual playthrough.
I will now purchase Celeste, learn how to play, learn how to make mods for it. And crank out a mod of entirely dash-less water levels. Also anything else you think would be hard for TASing. I’m taking suggestions
You play a games a certain way, you want games to be optimal for how you play them. We all have our own ways we play games and we all want games to be more like what we like. Personally I *really* hate games that force you to pick from two bad options and greatly prefer when games have a range of possible outcomes and make the best outcome just require serious gamer skill but some people really like the hard choices. I do think that autoscrollers are often a bit boring and RNG works to fix a problem that can be done in different ways (like making an item drop after killing 100 of an enemy rather than it just being a 1% chance) but both of them can be done well and have reasons to exist. Also calling speedrunning a kink is both very funny and pretty accurate, solid analogy.
I agree with the other comments here stating that the commentators were probably just saying it as a fun comment, and not as an actual request to the developers. Like, sure, they might _want_ it, but the way they begged for it is probably just a joke.
hey I think you might have misunderstood them when they said "please never make a dashless waterlevel " it sounded like they were just venting to the audience about their frustrations and wanted some sympathy rather than a call to action for mapmakers. I felt like commenting since my autistic friend sometimes ask me to explain social cues she misses, my intentions are not to be rude just maybe helpful. I will also fully admit I could be 100% wrong on this since I have only seen the clips in this video!
I've always thought your point about speedrunner discourse influencing game design was interesting. I'd only argue that the backlash against autoscrollers and RNG isn't unique and didn't need speedrunners to get going. I view them as extremely similar to things like escort and stealth missions. They have plenty of clear potential to achieve specific aesthetic goals, but they only have to be employed poorly a few times before negativity bias kicks in and people start hating them. The couple of times people initially take issue with these things are probably valid in isolation, but our very flawed and very human pattern recognition then tries to extrapolate that to all instances of the thing, which is just wrong. Every tool has the potential to be used to achieve an aesthetic goal. It's easy to imagine someone encountering Marble Blast Platinum's random force surfaces and having an aversion from random behavior forever, or suffering for hours in stage 7 of Alucard's route in Castlevania III and swearing off all autoscrollers. The dislike is short sighted, but understandable.
i 100% agree. TAS is an interesting perspective to view and play a game from, but it reduces Celeste (& games like it) into contextless challenges, essentially math problems. and i can't help but feel like some amount of aesthetic and thematic value is lost, y'know? i know that not everyone cares for plot or themes or even just looking at games as something other than a mechanical experience but designing a game as TASers desire would mean that Celeste would lose part of its core. and games deserve variety. the water levels are interesting and different and completing them feels like learning something new about your own capabilities. and that on its own contributes so much to the game's central metaphor, far more than the dialogue or the side characters or anything. it's about expanding your horizons.
I think RNG and autoscrollers are fine to be upset about even outside of a speedrunning context because I think both can be misused in ways that just aren't fun for the audience, and most examples I hear of people disliking both, they dislike because it causes tedious or unfun gameplay experiences in a casual setting, too
Ok but rng does sometimes suck when not done right and autoscrollers are almost annoying because if you're good enough you'll just get to the end of the screen and just have to wait for it to scroll. (There are some situations where it's good though)
counterpoint: have you seen the silly shit mario tasers get up to in autoscrollers? its so fun to watch them flailing around doing wild shit as they wait for the thing to go forward. also it's sorta fun to watch them admit defeat, you know? you have all this control over the inputs, you can do shit a regular player couldnt even dream of, you've broken so much of the game, and yet a simple scrolling wall has got you doing flips back and forth on the screen. you can almost taste the frustration and i think that's neat.
the perception of systems with RNG depends mostly on what the outcome is for me if its a win or lose kinda deal, having played world of tanks exstensively years ago each shot had to go through 4 different layers of RNG atleast, deciding where in the reticle it went, what its penetration was, whhat its damage was and if it hit in the right spot wether it rolled the 30% chance to damage a module a lot of salt was thrown around just due to how rediculous the amount of RNG is and how step 1 2 and 3 can each fuck you over if the previous didnt, 1 can miss, 2 and 3 are both a 25% from the deviation
Why does everyone always stop their thoughts at "this was a joke so it must be entirely unassailable"??? Jokes communicate shared ideas and values. This is the Purpose of a joke! This is why most comedians from a different culture or political leaning than you make jokes that usually won't land. Those jokes communicate a shared understanding from another culture. When the commentators make these jokes, they are communicating a community value for a type of gameplay that isn't the one they are complaining about. People don't jokingly complain about the hype and flashy movement in Celeste, even if some of it was somehow unexpectedly difficult to make because the community values that gameplay. When most unskilled fighting game players make jokes, they joke about campy zoners being braindead. Meanwhile most skilled fighting game players joke about players unwilling to adapt to campy zoners and be better. Making jokes communicates what is and isn't acceptable in the community. When you're at a party and everyone pokes fun at you and calls you a killjoy or something after you make a certain decision, is that "just a joke" or is that communication about what they think you should've done instead? Many anime fans make jokes about the mythical "twitter user" for chastising them for the content they enjoy, and thats not for no reason either. They want to watch their stuff and not think about it; they dont value criticism coming from that angle.
thank you holy god, yeah, seriously. Like....whhhyyy are we biting at the bit to give them an out of this when they just won't own up? It's not that deep anyways like it's just a little 4 minute video from an autistic puppygirl, she's a nice lady, you can say "oops" and she isn't going to bite you over it I'm pretty sure. So strange to me.
why would you name the video "Celeste TASers Don't Like Dashless Water Movement For Some Reason" when the reason is pretty clear and the video is about a response to Dashless Water Movement
Speedrunners & TASers seem to often have this weird sense of entitlement towards the games they play that I'm glad to finally hear someone else address a little bit from this video.
I agree with everything you say here except for the part about RNG only being a speedrunning thing and not mattering to people who don't do that. Like, I agree, in most cases RNG isn't the fuckin boogeyman some people make it out to be, but there are DEFINITELY cases where RNG is frustrating to even casual players. Missing shots in shooters because of RNG bullet spread, not being able to predict if you can finish an encounter before you die yourself due to RNG damage numbers, losing an entire run in a rougelike due to RNG bad items or RNG hard bosses. Like play The Binding of Isaac for four or so hours and you'll see that RNG can ABSOLUTELY screw over casual players in certain circumstances. These are obviously cases that aren't applicable to everyone, but they absolutely exist.
Great video, but I partially disagree with the point about autoscrollers. Autoscrollers can be done in a way thats perfectly fine but very often they are just kind of boring waiting games. Even if you're not a speedrunner feeling like you're being told by the game youre not allowed to go any faster is not fun
@@puppyhelictriangle i think we're talking about different things i was thinking more something like super mario world autoscrollers not, for lack of a better word, "artsy", emotional moments
@@willytor7899 there are many not-particularly-artsy reasons to enforce a certain pace of play, shovel knight plays with retro platforming idiom in a lot of ways, its autoscrollers evoke very intentional but simple emotions.
I think that sometimes if people go too fast then there are some setpieces that are not mechanically possible. Specifically I'm thinking of slow projectiles in platformers, certain spinning/swinging things, anything with a moving platform that drops enemies on you (this gimmick was used well in the New Super Mario Bros. games for the DS/3DS, both 1 and 2). It's annoying for speedrunners but I'm not convinced that it's annoying for people in general, since if you disable the autoscrolling on these levels it becomes way less fun really fast. None of the enemies can even hit you if you go fast! It trivializes the entire experience! Slow projectiles, by the way, are why the airship levels in Mario are all autoscrollers. The cannons (the slow, angled ones), fire shooters, and wrenches are only a threat if you can't just run past them before they get a chance to even theoretically hit you. It's why they basically only show up in those levels. There was no other way to have a level with a buncha slow moving projectiles, because either you prefire them offscreen and the player has no time to react to the object basically hanging in the air and they'll run into them sideways, or you don't prefire them and a player can avoid all of them if they just hold the run button. Or you lock the player in a room with the slow projectiles and don't prefire them, which is what autoscrollers are. There's a reason those cannons go slower than the bullet bills, and why the faster bullet bills show up on the normal platforming levels but the cannons are only on the autoscrolling airship levels. The fire shooters in particular pressure you into doing a timing challenge fast. If you can just sit there and figure out the timing, that's way less of a challenge than if you've got four seconds to get the timing down or the invisible wall will push you into it. Genuinely go watch some of the later airship levels in Super Mario Bros. 3. 90% of the obstacles there aren't obstacles if you just go fast enough!
celeste dashless water: ✅ speed loss on movement changes; ✅ not intended for machine runs; ✅ requires extensive experience for optimal turns; trackmania 2: Valley: ✅ speed loss on movement changes; ✅ not intended for machine runs; ✅ requires extensive experience for optimal turns; you don't see TASers complaining about the latter though
I hope these two were joking when they said "don't make any map like this ever again". But it sounds from what you're saying right after that not only it's not the case, but they're not the only ones? Geez the entitlement. Edit: From other comments, they were indeed joking.
Yes, they were mostly joking. People continue to make dashless water maps but they just don't get Tased. So what them mean was more like "don't make any map like this if you want it to get tased". Tasing is a big scene in the celeste community, and people know that big collabs like this one will get tased, and putting a similar map to this one will potentially prevent the whole collab from being tased. I hope that made sense
@@sashabell9997 "Yes we were joking but what we said was our genuine opinion and feeling" you don't know what the word joking means in this context, at this point I am thoroughly convinced of this.
I'm a non-speedrunner normie-ass gamer who gets upset about RNG and autoscrollers. I dislike bad RNG because getting unlucky sucks. I dislike autoscrollers because I feel constrained and claustrophobic. I know very little about Celeste, but if you're having to make frame-perfect x-and-y analog moves in the TAS, wouldn't you also have to make precise x-and-y analog moves in the RTA run? They're saying dashless water levels require an inordinate amount of time to be spent on tedious skills that don't apply to the rest of the game, and it sounds like that holds true for real-time runners as well. Or maybe I am The Big Dumb because like I said I know very little about Celeste. Maybe someone can tell me if I'm wrong lmao
on the most basic level, the idea of speedrunning is that you're treating the game as something it's not meant to be. game design is supposed to produce interesting gameplay. the goals of a speedrunner are orthogonal to the goals of a regular player. the designer has given you a car and you're trying to see how well you can make it swim, and the basic premise of that is that cars aren't supposed to be made for swimming. asking a designer to design a game * for * speedrunning is sorta absurd on its face, right? the whole point is that the speedrunners will try to break it in ways you could never have foreseen. game designers design games, speedrunners repurpose them into speed games, and there's sorta no getting around that i think.
I mean, there are certainly ways in which you can design a game to allow speedrunning to work well without effecting the regular gameplay, like making cutscenes skippable or theoretically implementing an ingame timer, though that can be hard to work in. Regardless, there's ways in which you can accomodate both people moving fast and regular players - that doesn't mean that every game needs to do that it's simply an incredibly viable option.
The fastest way to beat Far Cry... 4, I think it is, is just to stand still in the beginning for 10 minutes. If all you care about is making the credits roll, there's a hidden ending where the player character just decides not to set in motion the events of the game. It's cute but to me highlights the pitfalls of speedrunning focused design. Classic Sonic games are designed to be sped through, but in a much more elegant way. Sonic wants to go fast, the fastest way to see the ending is to play the game faster, with one caveat where you actually don't want to go too fast in a speedrun because if your time bonus is too big the game slowly tallies it up, so optimal play is actually to wait by the goal for a few seconds so you don't add to your time by having a very high score. It's definitely a balancing act, and how serious these guys were is hard to say since typically no one orates their gane design manifesto as casual stream commentary, it's just kinda funny this one level is so infuriating to TAS for, it provoked this reaction from the TAS author. But how much you should care or if you should even care at all what speedrunners want is an interesting conversation.
Tool-Assisted Speedrun. strictly speaking, despite the title sounding like a tool that assists a player, it's actually where a machine IS the player, calculating frame-perfect inputs to a hypothetical 'controller' and playing the game as fast as it's mechanically possible to play.
STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM COMPLAINING YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO COMPLAIN ONLY THEY ARE!!!! (Also anytime I hear speedrunners complain about a game being difficult to speedrun I just think...so? Thats not how games are made thats literally the entire point and calling games trash because it took you a while to do a thing you wanted to do quickly is acc kinda dumb and also thats the whole point of speedrunning, is to solve that problem so...?)
Having spent way too much time reading comments on here it's pretty clear they just got caught being salty in 4k and tried to TAS their way out of an acknowledgement of that fact.
okay, but autoscrollers suck so often I completely understand why normie games would hate them as a whole. It's a sudden shift in gameplay style that removes agency rather than add variety, it's the same reason gamers hate water levels and the reason gamers would rather jump off ladders than climb down them even if it means taking damage
Im just over hear noticing that they clearly know enough math to optimize their TAS play, but not enough computer science to optomize the tedious bits, and just laughing.
They already use machine learning to find optimal routes tho It's just (as spacenoodles said) not yet implemented for dashless water You shouldn't make assumptions like that
@@nenrikido2903 not machine learning. The feather program uses a genetic algorithm, and we also have a lobby routing program that is simply a brute force. Nothing involving learning or neutral networks for now
maths and computer science are not related. the maths for this is also very simple its literally trigonometry. i dont really know how to write code, i explained in another comment why its so difficult to implement doing it automatically and why it hasnt received much attention
For starters I'm neither a competitive speedrunner nor do I tas the game and I also do kind of get your point. However I dissagree on the magnitude. So I think people who TAS are a big part of the community and should be considered when making maps. I don't think that means you should only do what TASers want or completely avoid what they hate, but you should at the very least consider it, just like you should consider speedrunners aswell. While the majority of people might not benefit too much from that, there is still a big difference between the majority of your audience and the really invested minority. Because this minority is a big part of how the community will play out, how your game will keep being relevant and how your game will look to outsiders. I also think your point of autoscrollers and rng only being relevant for speedrunning is kind of dumb. I personally love fast paced games, 90% of the time, if something hurts a speedrun it also hurts my enjoyment. (So for example autoscrollers in a long hard room can be painful for casual players, because you cannot improve and get to the part of the room you struggle with faster as time goes on, because you cannot capitilize on getting better). I in general hate a lot of "game designer" choices that are often praised (that I just find obnoxious), I do get that there is an audience for that, but you don't seem to acknolwedge that there is another side. Yes people often like going fast and being able to consistently get shit, this is not because speedrunners brainwashed them.
![[TAS] Celeste Any% in 21:23.330](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pG7vh7ENYSk/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TAS] Celeste Any% in 21:23.330](/img/tr.png)
![[TAS] Farewell (Celeste Chapter 9) in 9:59.998](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/86MNradN1oM/mqdefault.jpg)
I was going to leave a chastisizing comment telling Patricia to just let the nerds complain about the thing that annoys them before the irony whiplash hit me with the force of a baseball bat.
look at this nerd complaining about that nerd complaining about some nerd complaining about nerd shit
look at this nerd complaining about that nerd complaining about some nerd complaining about nerd sh*t
youtube ate my reply. im actually upset
@@brain_cellthis happen to me every time
vriska blue
(Thanks to Ramanuj Sarkar for reformatting the text)
Okay, so the guy ranting about dashless water movement was me and I want to clarify some things.
Firstly, obviously what I said was exaggerated for comedic effect. However, in this particular case with dashless water, it is relatively unfun for casual play as well. However, it was the first time it was done in a map like this (AFAIK) which is pretty cool.
I should probably explain why I was seemingly so irrationally mad by going into what TASing dashless water involves. I want to clarify that I actually find dashless water tech very interesting, and since that TAS was created, new tech was discovered to make it slightly faster but even more confusing.
So, to explain why it's so bad I will first explain what makes feather movement unfun to TAS:
Feathers are a vanilla mechanic that were hated by almost everyone, because instead of the usual four directions there are now 360 degrees of analog movement, in addition to the fact that there is very little interesting tech, mainly feather boosts at the start, and bonking into walls. This makes TASing a feather basically just manual bruteforcing, which is very boring.
But a saving grace is that your speed is determined by your angle and you have a fixed magnitude of speed, so when you want to turn there are only two angles you need to optimise, the entry and the exit.
Still most people didn't want to get involved with it in maingame when I got into the scene but I thought, "This is a TAS. It’s supposed to go fast, even the parts that are pretty tedious" and I decided to TAS it myself.
I actually found it relatively interesting to TAS, especially the fact that you have such precision over your subpixel, meaning you could actually abuse rounding error in many cases after exiting the feather to save a frame. Due to this precision, it actually forced the dev of the TAS tool at the time to introduce analog movement that was accurate to what a controller was capable of, and introduce the square analog gate which allowed for feather boosting using the analog stick. Thanks to a guy called roboman, there is now a tool that uses a genetic algorithm to learn what the best feather route is through evolution, and this tool saved time on almost every feather in the game.
I say all this to demonstrate that I am not someone who shies away from difficult or tedious TASing. There are other examples but it's already long enough as it is, and I haven’t even gotten to the dashless water part.
So, feathers are bad and tedious for most people, but I like them right, how much worse can dashless water be? So much worse. I’ll explain the knowledge I had at the time, before explaining the new tech that could be used to make mossy caverns faster.
As mentioned previously, when using a feather, if you’re going in a direction, you will move at a set speed corresponding to the angle you are holding, and if you change direction, your angle changes by 5.33 degrees per frame until you’re at the new angle. With a feather the x and y speeds are automatically calculated based off whatever this 5.33 degrees is so there is no way to achieve a magnitude of anything other than 190 speed, whether below or above.
Water movement is not like this, well it sort of is. Your final speed is determined by the angle you’re holding but the intermediate speeds are not calculated every frame by some relation to an angle change. Instead, when you hold a different direction, the game calculates the speed you should be at and reduces your speed by 10 on each axis until you get there. But unfortunately for me this is very suboptimal, as there are angles in between where you move by 10 speed on one axis but you can move by less than 10 speed on another axis. I could go into the maths behind how this is the case, as it's just basic trig, but it’s not really necessary. The point is if you don't manually input the correct angle every frame when turning. you will lose more speed than necessary, and this timeloss massively compounds over multiple turns as you move so goddamn slowly that tiny errors can really amplify over long periods of time, especially because your max speed is 60 x speed and 80 y speed, and 10 speed is a very large fraction relative to those numbers.
Additionally, at the time I was one of the few people that actually used decimal places in my feathers and part of the reason was that they were implemented very badly into the tools. For example, if I wanted to write 89.99, I could not just write it I would first have to write 8999 and add the decimal after. This was absolutely excruciating to do thousands of times. One thing I would often do is I would use excel to do an input angle and then find the subsequent angles and write them in. Unfortunately, due to float errors in Celeste, it is not possible to do this perfectly and every angle still needs to be bruteforced a bit. It was also possible to calculate how far I needed to move for a specific obstacle and work out what the perfect entry angle is but again, float errors prevent this from being infallible.
Onto the new tech. So it was known at the time that if you enter the water with speed higher than the maximum on one of the axes it was possible to stay at a high diagonal speed by alternating holding a horizontal and vertical direction. For example, say I'm moving down and to the right, the max x speed in water is 60 and the max y speed is 80. If I am moving above 60 and 80, if I keep holding right, I will stay at 60 as my y speed drops and hits 80. When it dips below 80 to 70, I can now press down, and my x speed will drop to 50 but y will go up to 80 again. I press right again, and my y speed goes down to 70 and x back to 60 and so on over and over. This can be used to keep a speed much higher than would normally be possible.
As it turns out it is possible to do this without starting at a high speed but for much less returns. For example, if I hold an angle of 56.443, I will have 50 x speed and -44.22 y speed. If I then hold right, I will have 60 x speed and -34.22 y speed which is much more than 0. There are multiple ways of combining it and different regions of angles for which it is correct. This is all very interesting, but it makes the process of TASing even more complicated and confusing.
What's more, typically it is possible to set speed and position in normal TASing in order to theory craft what the best initial conditions are, but because the end depends on the input angle this is not possible. The complexity of the movement also makes it much harder to build a tool for and because it isn't relevant to maingame as there is literally one screen that involves actually going through water and you can dash, there isn’t really any incentive to work on one.
It took me around a month of TASing multiple hours a day to finish mossy caverns and god knows how long it would take if I decided to revisit it. So obviously mappers can make dashless water maps if they want to, but they are a nightmare and I do not envy the person who makes a TAS if there is a dashless water level in strawberry jam.
thx again for all the effort
@@itsabrody haha it was mostly fun, just very repetitive love you
I'm NOT reading all that, you're WRONG and the anthropomorphic animal is RIGHT
@@jamrockVEVO lol
read more jumpscare
I agree with your overall point, but I honestly think the commentators were just taking the piss. I don't think they were actually upset, just venting about how hard it was to do.
yeah we were
at the same time, joking complaints shows the community where their values are. they wouldn't make this joke about more exciting maps that were frustrating to TAS. this is how communities communicate what is important to them
@@undeniablySomeGuy Yeah. If you're not upset, what is it that you're "venting", exactly? That's kind of an oxymoronic statement right there, and the fact the person themselves latched onto it and agreed has me doubling down on the thought that they'd rather roll with this illogic if it gives them an out of having to be "Wrong" about something, in any context, to not have to apologize or even nod to a mistake.
You can't really TAS your way out of human interactions, unfortunately.
@@YevhenRawrsWhat do you mean? Those guys probably spent like 5 hours doing and redoing the inputs for something they thought would be simple and got frustrated even thinking back on it.
I really don't think it's that deep. Like people get annoyed when it's raining and they had plans, but that doesn't mean they _actually_ want it to never rain again.
I love how casually the "thanks for watching" is delivered and how it's slightly cut off in these videos. Catches me off guard every time.
I mostly agree with the points you made, but I will say I'm a bit confused about the bit referencing "RNG" as a strictly speedrunning-based term. Most of the contexts I've heard it used in are in games which have a habit of making the player do painful amounts of grinding. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but I don't think it's something that only speedrunners would naturally complain about.
Yeah most complaints about rng from non-speedrunners are about grind economies or about removal of player agency and control. I guess the latter is kind of also what the speedrunners are complaining about but it's for different reasons.
The main context in which I hear that complaint is competitive games, where being concerned about bad uses of RNG seems rather valid.
Though I occasionally hear it for casual games, too. Though in that context what people are talking about seems to generally be more about "Random Bullshit" than the presence of RNG.
The autoscrollers in Super Mario Bros 3 were some of my favourite levels on my casual and only playthrough. By having the level set the pace and not Mario, you got this weaving between obstacles that the main levels didn't have. You couldn't run past a blaster, you had to deal with its projectiles.
It was like a baby bullet hell in a Mario engine. They're great levels in a casual playthrough.
I will now purchase Celeste, learn how to play, learn how to make mods for it. And crank out a mod of entirely dash-less water levels.
Also anything else you think would be hard for TASing. I’m taking suggestions
You play a games a certain way, you want games to be optimal for how you play them. We all have our own ways we play games and we all want games to be more like what we like. Personally I *really* hate games that force you to pick from two bad options and greatly prefer when games have a range of possible outcomes and make the best outcome just require serious gamer skill but some people really like the hard choices.
I do think that autoscrollers are often a bit boring and RNG works to fix a problem that can be done in different ways (like making an item drop after killing 100 of an enemy rather than it just being a 1% chance) but both of them can be done well and have reasons to exist.
Also calling speedrunning a kink is both very funny and pretty accurate, solid analogy.
I agree with the other comments here stating that the commentators were probably just saying it as a fun comment, and not as an actual request to the developers. Like, sure, they might _want_ it, but the way they begged for it is probably just a joke.
hey I think you might have misunderstood them when they said "please never make a dashless waterlevel " it sounded like they were just venting to the audience about their frustrations and wanted some sympathy rather than a call to action for mapmakers. I felt like commenting since my autistic friend sometimes ask me to explain social cues she misses, my intentions are not to be rude just maybe helpful. I will also fully admit I could be 100% wrong on this since I have only seen the clips in this video!
yes we were just joking and exaggerating to be funny
What a brilliantly made rant, love it
I've always thought your point about speedrunner discourse influencing game design was interesting. I'd only argue that the backlash against autoscrollers and RNG isn't unique and didn't need speedrunners to get going. I view them as extremely similar to things like escort and stealth missions. They have plenty of clear potential to achieve specific aesthetic goals, but they only have to be employed poorly a few times before negativity bias kicks in and people start hating them. The couple of times people initially take issue with these things are probably valid in isolation, but our very flawed and very human pattern recognition then tries to extrapolate that to all instances of the thing, which is just wrong. Every tool has the potential to be used to achieve an aesthetic goal.
It's easy to imagine someone encountering Marble Blast Platinum's random force surfaces and having an aversion from random behavior forever, or suffering for hours in stage 7 of Alucard's route in Castlevania III and swearing off all autoscrollers. The dislike is short sighted, but understandable.
damn, im so happy to stumble upon this channel - it's just so perfect for my eepy brains
i dont even play this game i just like hearing you talk about anything. thanks for being you online where i can enjoy!
i 100% agree. TAS is an interesting perspective to view and play a game from, but it reduces Celeste (& games like it) into contextless challenges, essentially math problems. and i can't help but feel like some amount of aesthetic and thematic value is lost, y'know? i know that not everyone cares for plot or themes or even just looking at games as something other than a mechanical experience but designing a game as TASers desire would mean that Celeste would lose part of its core. and games deserve variety. the water levels are interesting and different and completing them feels like learning something new about your own capabilities. and that on its own contributes so much to the game's central metaphor, far more than the dialogue or the side characters or anything. it's about expanding your horizons.
I feel like different players asking for what they want in ganes to be in games is fairly normal
I think RNG and autoscrollers are fine to be upset about even outside of a speedrunning context because I think both can be misused in ways that just aren't fun for the audience, and most examples I hear of people disliking both, they dislike because it causes tedious or unfun gameplay experiences in a casual setting, too
Ok but rng does sometimes suck when not done right and autoscrollers are almost annoying because if you're good enough you'll just get to the end of the screen and just have to wait for it to scroll. (There are some situations where it's good though)
counterpoint: have you seen the silly shit mario tasers get up to in autoscrollers? its so fun to watch them flailing around doing wild shit as they wait for the thing to go forward. also it's sorta fun to watch them admit defeat, you know? you have all this control over the inputs, you can do shit a regular player couldnt even dream of, you've broken so much of the game, and yet a simple scrolling wall has got you doing flips back and forth on the screen. you can almost taste the frustration and i think that's neat.
@@dnys_7827 that's why my favorite kind of TAS is "playaround" it's so fun to watch how they mess with the game for 0 reason :)
@@dnys_7827 I think auto-scrollers are more something speedrunners get annoyed at, not TAS-ers, since they have to play the section over and over
the perception of systems with RNG depends mostly on what the outcome is for me if its a win or lose kinda deal, having played world of tanks exstensively years ago each shot had to go through 4 different layers of RNG atleast, deciding where in the reticle it went, what its penetration was, whhat its damage was and if it hit in the right spot wether it rolled the 30% chance to damage a module
a lot of salt was thrown around just due to how rediculous the amount of RNG is and how step 1 2 and 3 can each fuck you over if the previous didnt, 1 can miss, 2 and 3 are both a 25% from the deviation
@@dnys_7827 I'm not talking about tases I'm talking about me playing mayrio and not being able to play the game at my own pace
Why does everyone always stop their thoughts at "this was a joke so it must be entirely unassailable"??? Jokes communicate shared ideas and values. This is the Purpose of a joke! This is why most comedians from a different culture or political leaning than you make jokes that usually won't land. Those jokes communicate a shared understanding from another culture. When the commentators make these jokes, they are communicating a community value for a type of gameplay that isn't the one they are complaining about. People don't jokingly complain about the hype and flashy movement in Celeste, even if some of it was somehow unexpectedly difficult to make because the community values that gameplay. When most unskilled fighting game players make jokes, they joke about campy zoners being braindead. Meanwhile most skilled fighting game players joke about players unwilling to adapt to campy zoners and be better. Making jokes communicates what is and isn't acceptable in the community. When you're at a party and everyone pokes fun at you and calls you a killjoy or something after you make a certain decision, is that "just a joke" or is that communication about what they think you should've done instead? Many anime fans make jokes about the mythical "twitter user" for chastising them for the content they enjoy, and thats not for no reason either. They want to watch their stuff and not think about it; they dont value criticism coming from that angle.
thank you holy god, yeah, seriously. Like....whhhyyy are we biting at the bit to give them an out of this when they just won't own up? It's not that deep anyways like it's just a little 4 minute video from an autistic puppygirl, she's a nice lady, you can say "oops" and she isn't going to bite you over it I'm pretty sure. So strange to me.
Has no one in this comment section talked to anyone in their entire life or am i going insane ??????????
why would you name the video "Celeste TASers Don't Like Dashless Water Movement For Some Reason" when the reason is pretty clear and the video is about a response to Dashless Water Movement
Speedrunners & TASers seem to often have this weird sense of entitlement towards the games they play that I'm glad to finally hear someone else address a little bit from this video.
u have to make 5 consecutive frame perfect inputs 2 make sure u lose at little speed as possible? dang better hop 2 it bud good luck i believe in u
🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
I agree with everything you say here except for the part about RNG only being a speedrunning thing and not mattering to people who don't do that. Like, I agree, in most cases RNG isn't the fuckin boogeyman some people make it out to be, but there are DEFINITELY cases where RNG is frustrating to even casual players. Missing shots in shooters because of RNG bullet spread, not being able to predict if you can finish an encounter before you die yourself due to RNG damage numbers, losing an entire run in a rougelike due to RNG bad items or RNG hard bosses. Like play The Binding of Isaac for four or so hours and you'll see that RNG can ABSOLUTELY screw over casual players in certain circumstances. These are obviously cases that aren't applicable to everyone, but they absolutely exist.
idk, I don't enjoy autoscrollers, I want to determine how fast I play the game, especially in like, platformers
Great video, but I partially disagree with the point about autoscrollers. Autoscrollers can be done in a way thats perfectly fine but very often they are just kind of boring waiting games. Even if you're not a speedrunner feeling like you're being told by the game youre not allowed to go any faster is not fun
sometimes unfun things are aesthetically necessary
@@puppyhelictriangle i think we're talking about different things i was thinking more something like super mario world autoscrollers not, for lack of a better word, "artsy", emotional moments
@@willytor7899 there are many not-particularly-artsy reasons to enforce a certain pace of play, shovel knight plays with retro platforming idiom in a lot of ways, its autoscrollers evoke very intentional but simple emotions.
I think that sometimes if people go too fast then there are some setpieces that are not mechanically possible. Specifically I'm thinking of slow projectiles in platformers, certain spinning/swinging things, anything with a moving platform that drops enemies on you (this gimmick was used well in the New Super Mario Bros. games for the DS/3DS, both 1 and 2). It's annoying for speedrunners but I'm not convinced that it's annoying for people in general, since if you disable the autoscrolling on these levels it becomes way less fun really fast. None of the enemies can even hit you if you go fast! It trivializes the entire experience!
Slow projectiles, by the way, are why the airship levels in Mario are all autoscrollers. The cannons (the slow, angled ones), fire shooters, and wrenches are only a threat if you can't just run past them before they get a chance to even theoretically hit you. It's why they basically only show up in those levels. There was no other way to have a level with a buncha slow moving projectiles, because either you prefire them offscreen and the player has no time to react to the object basically hanging in the air and they'll run into them sideways, or you don't prefire them and a player can avoid all of them if they just hold the run button. Or you lock the player in a room with the slow projectiles and don't prefire them, which is what autoscrollers are. There's a reason those cannons go slower than the bullet bills, and why the faster bullet bills show up on the normal platforming levels but the cannons are only on the autoscrolling airship levels.
The fire shooters in particular pressure you into doing a timing challenge fast. If you can just sit there and figure out the timing, that's way less of a challenge than if you've got four seconds to get the timing down or the invisible wall will push you into it.
Genuinely go watch some of the later airship levels in Super Mario Bros. 3. 90% of the obstacles there aren't obstacles if you just go fast enough!
You should try a fighting game sometime, it'll blow your mind out your butt just how not allowed to go faster you are 😅
ok but after doing some dashless water levels, i have to agree with the TASers
I don't know if anyone has told you this but your fursona is super cute :3 also your commentary is really good :)
I think one of the stupidest things you can say js "Game mechanic x is always bad and you should never use it."
for sure, basically everything *can* be done well, it's just about how hard it is to get right
celeste dashless water:
✅ speed loss on movement changes;
✅ not intended for machine runs;
✅ requires extensive experience for optimal turns;
trackmania 2: Valley:
✅ speed loss on movement changes;
✅ not intended for machine runs;
✅ requires extensive experience for optimal turns;
you don't see TASers complaining about the latter though
this is because nobody (except, like, arkes) tasses tm2 lol
thank god you get it
I hope these two were joking when they said "don't make any map like this ever again". But it sounds from what you're saying right after that not only it's not the case, but they're not the only ones? Geez the entitlement.
Edit: From other comments, they were indeed joking.
Yes, they were mostly joking. People continue to make dashless water maps but they just don't get Tased. So what them mean was more like "don't make any map like this if you want it to get tased". Tasing is a big scene in the celeste community, and people know that big collabs like this one will get tased, and putting a similar map to this one will potentially prevent the whole collab from being tased. I hope that made sense
yes we were joking we just didn't want to have to tas another dashless water map
@@sashabell9997 That's what I thought initially. Thanks for confirming. Edited my post to mention it.
@@Fastolph- np :)
@@sashabell9997 "Yes we were joking but what we said was our genuine opinion and feeling" you don't know what the word joking means in this context, at this point I am thoroughly convinced of this.
I'm a non-speedrunner normie-ass gamer who gets upset about RNG and autoscrollers. I dislike bad RNG because getting unlucky sucks. I dislike autoscrollers because I feel constrained and claustrophobic.
I know very little about Celeste, but if you're having to make frame-perfect x-and-y analog moves in the TAS, wouldn't you also have to make precise x-and-y analog moves in the RTA run? They're saying dashless water levels require an inordinate amount of time to be spent on tedious skills that don't apply to the rest of the game, and it sounds like that holds true for real-time runners as well. Or maybe I am The Big Dumb because like I said I know very little about Celeste. Maybe someone can tell me if I'm wrong lmao
on the most basic level, the idea of speedrunning is that you're treating the game as something it's not meant to be. game design is supposed to produce interesting gameplay. the goals of a speedrunner are orthogonal to the goals of a regular player. the designer has given you a car and you're trying to see how well you can make it swim, and the basic premise of that is that cars aren't supposed to be made for swimming.
asking a designer to design a game * for * speedrunning is sorta absurd on its face, right? the whole point is that the speedrunners will try to break it in ways you could never have foreseen. game designers design games, speedrunners repurpose them into speed games, and there's sorta no getting around that i think.
I mean, there are certainly ways in which you can design a game to allow speedrunning to work well without effecting the regular gameplay, like making cutscenes skippable or theoretically implementing an ingame timer, though that can be hard to work in. Regardless, there's ways in which you can accomodate both people moving fast and regular players - that doesn't mean that every game needs to do that it's simply an incredibly viable option.
The fastest way to beat Far Cry... 4, I think it is, is just to stand still in the beginning for 10 minutes. If all you care about is making the credits roll, there's a hidden ending where the player character just decides not to set in motion the events of the game.
It's cute but to me highlights the pitfalls of speedrunning focused design. Classic Sonic games are designed to be sped through, but in a much more elegant way. Sonic wants to go fast, the fastest way to see the ending is to play the game faster, with one caveat where you actually don't want to go too fast in a speedrun because if your time bonus is too big the game slowly tallies it up, so optimal play is actually to wait by the goal for a few seconds so you don't add to your time by having a very high score.
It's definitely a balancing act, and how serious these guys were is hard to say since typically no one orates their gane design manifesto as casual stream commentary, it's just kinda funny this one level is so infuriating to TAS for, it provoked this reaction from the TAS author. But how much you should care or if you should even care at all what speedrunners want is an interesting conversation.
RNG and autoscrollers are not even real issues for speedrunners either. It depends on the games.
For some reason this makes me feel scared
What does TAS mean?
Tool-Assisted Speedrun. strictly speaking, despite the title sounding like a tool that assists a player, it's actually where a machine IS the player, calculating frame-perfect inputs to a hypothetical 'controller' and playing the game as fast as it's mechanically possible to play.
STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM COMPLAINING YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO COMPLAIN ONLY THEY ARE!!!!
(Also anytime I hear speedrunners complain about a game being difficult to speedrun I just think...so? Thats not how games are made thats literally the entire point and calling games trash because it took you a while to do a thing you wanted to do quickly is acc kinda dumb and also thats the whole point of speedrunning, is to solve that problem so...?)
Having spent way too much time reading comments on here it's pretty clear they just got caught being salty in 4k and tried to TAS their way out of an acknowledgement of that fact.
this speedrunner is the absolute embodiment, the avatar on our Earth, of the L Nerd yapping angrily in front of the whiteboard meme lmao
I think it was a joke actually
actually levels are bad, Celeste should be open world
But it was a good video
okay, but autoscrollers suck so often I completely understand why normie games would hate them as a whole. It's a sudden shift in gameplay style that removes agency rather than add variety, it's the same reason gamers hate water levels and the reason gamers would rather jump off ladders than climb down them even if it means taking damage
Im just over hear noticing that they clearly know enough math to optimize their TAS play, but not enough computer science to optomize the tedious bits, and just laughing.
We are actually working on a program to automate dashless water, but it is very complex. We already have a program that perfectly solves feathers
They already use machine learning to find optimal routes tho
It's just (as spacenoodles said) not yet implemented for dashless water
You shouldn't make assumptions like that
@@nenrikido2903 not machine learning. The feather program uses a genetic algorithm, and we also have a lobby routing program that is simply a brute force. Nothing involving learning or neutral networks for now
@@nenrikido2903 as the person who is making the program to do it automatically, i can say that there definitely isnt machine learning
maths and computer science are not related. the maths for this is also very simple its literally trigonometry. i dont really know how to write code, i explained in another comment why its so difficult to implement doing it automatically and why it hasnt received much attention
For starters I'm neither a competitive speedrunner nor do I tas the game and I also do kind of get your point. However I dissagree on the magnitude. So I think people who TAS are a big part of the community and should be considered when making maps. I don't think that means you should only do what TASers want or completely avoid what they hate, but you should at the very least consider it, just like you should consider speedrunners aswell. While the majority of people might not benefit too much from that, there is still a big difference between the majority of your audience and the really invested minority. Because this minority is a big part of how the community will play out, how your game will keep being relevant and how your game will look to outsiders. I also think your point of autoscrollers and rng only being relevant for speedrunning is kind of dumb. I personally love fast paced games, 90% of the time, if something hurts a speedrun it also hurts my enjoyment. (So for example autoscrollers in a long hard room can be painful for casual players, because you cannot improve and get to the part of the room you struggle with faster as time goes on, because you cannot capitilize on getting better). I in general hate a lot of "game designer" choices that are often praised (that I just find obnoxious), I do get that there is an audience for that, but you don't seem to acknolwedge that there is another side. Yes people often like going fast and being able to consistently get shit, this is not because speedrunners brainwashed them.
bad video
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