This video sucks but the tool i was referring to was ai upscaling which would be the only way to preserve the exact textures. That being said many tf2 diffuses have compression so it would only work with the completely uncompressed assets, at which point valve could just release the original files which are probably 2 or 4x the size of the ones in game.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy Thank you for pinning this and replying to it, completely addressed the concerns I had when you suggested Ai usage in the video.
The last 3 minutes is exactly how I feel about the tf2 community overall right now. We’re so starved for content that actually matters, that people are making up scenarios to complain about
It's kinda sad for me that the TF2 community is just complaining nowadays. It's made the last few years of the game feel much worse than it actually was. But I can see where the aversion to the Source 2 port comes from. I don't think anyone is in opposition to the game getting a major upgrade that makes it better. I want a shiny new version of the game as much as anyone else. But a lot of the playerbase is afraid to trust Valve. Sometimes they would make these incredible updates that keep the game alive and fun and sometimes (often these days) they don't really seem to care about quality control, just pushing out obligatory holiday content. So I understand the unwillingness to trust such a huge change like a full-on new engine port. It's a lot to ask for it to happen in the first place. To ask for it to be done right and address all the issues that need it is even more of an absurd request. So I guess some people think it's better to just not take the risk and keep our dated, tangled but familiar mess of a game instead of a potentially half-baked engine port. If Valve were to take on this task, I'm sure they'd see it through fully, but the distrust of the TF2 team is at an all-time high. I can't even bring myself to blame people for it anymore, the bot crisis has been going on for like 4 years at this point.
Hard agree for the entire video I do believe fans/the people behind TFs2 (as theyve proven to be very competent & qualified) need to go to valve and be like “Hey! We can do that!!” and get it done fairly quickly That’s how almost all Valve games started afaik
I worked on TFs2 as one of the animation leads. I think the biggest benefit to a S2 engine upgrade would be the tools themselves. Some materials and maps might receive some new or fancier lighting from an engine upgrade, but the the tools and performance would be the biggest draws. All of the S1 tools are so archaic and clunky, and using S2 tools during the development of TFs2 has made that abundantly clear. For example, S1's model compiler is an entirely text/script based system, and after you compile a model you have to open up another tool to view said model. If you want to view the texture for said model, you have to open up yet ANOTHER program to view that. In S2, ModelDoc, their model program, can view, compile, decompile, edit and do a WHOLE load of other things, all within one toolset.
i am so glad to know that, thank god we dont have to waste 32 hours opening 50 different programs and having 50 different valve wiki pages from 10 years ago opened
PBR can also be used horribly badly, like in case of Warcraft 3 where entier games artstyle and look was ruined due to clueless artlead slapping PBR stupidly onto it, similarily with GTA Trilogy "Definitive Edition"
My opinion on the matter is if a Source 2 version of TF2 were to be made, it should count as a separate game entirely and not replace the original. Not because I think the original is perfect or anything, but just for the sake of allowing people who already enjoy the game but don't necessarily have beastly PC specs to keep enjoying the game. The economy is in shambles, a lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck, not everyone is living comfortably enough to upgrade their PC's right now. Something that does excite me about the prospect of such a version existing however is the idea of Valve actually caring enough about TF2 to start taking updates into their own hands again. All online communities have at least some toxic corners to them, and the TF2 community can be toxic in a lot of ways as well, but the most dangerous way is the people distinctly going out of their way to transform the game into something else entirely. Sometimes it can be kind of scary not knowing what new community created maps and game modes are going to get added in officially, and Valve has shown in the past that sometimes they barely even think about what gets the greenlight to become official and what doesn't. If Valve both took a bit more care to be picky regarding what does and doesn't become official in addition to working on their own updates behind the scenes again, I think the game would be in a much better position regarding keeping its identity and gameplay style and not getting diluted to the point of barely even being recognizable as the same game anymore. TF2 is not GMod, and should not ever become GMod.
10:40 Speaking of Team Fortress 2 movement mechanics: may I remind all that you can install a mod for Half-Life 2 that makes you literally play, controls and physics and all, as Mario from Super Mario 64 for the Nintendo 64. This also is available for many games like Minecraft and it's based on libsm64 library.
Source's entire movement can be recreated in Godot, for example a lot of people don't understand that game engines are tools to facilitate workflow, and not some sorcery that turns abstract concepts of the arcane into a playable hat simulator I like to think of myself as a wizard tho, pretty cool if you ask me
Me and a friend of mine recently got keys for s&box and we got the chance to check out TF2 source 2. The project is fantastic and it’s a shame that it got halted so abruptly, the game really benefits from the engine refresh and the way amper handled the visuals really fits. I think everyone would love for valve to port TF2 to source 2 officially but I think the chances of that really happening are very low. Valve is probably not gonna touch the tf franchise again for a long time so it’s important for the wider community to realize that if they want a team fortress in source 2 (wether it be a sequel, port, remake what have you) they’re gonna have to take it into their own hands, and I think amper software understand that well.
11:14 "basically" is a big word here, as a previous CSGO player who plays CS2 occasionally I can tell you the slight differences they didn't translate perfectly are really unfortunate. I love TF2 for a lot of its fun mechanics like rocket jumping, trimping, wallbugs, etc. and I think it'd get patched out on the way to source 2. I'd also be scared for all the custom animation, custom HUD, etc. type of mods for TF2 as they likely wouldn't translate well.
I'm still early in the vid so forgive me if you get to this point later but the greatest advantage of TF2 moving to Source 2 is that ALL the devs at Valve understand Source 2. Very few still know, or want to learn previous versions of Source.
I have always wanted TF2 to be ported to Source 2 not because it could gain a new artstyle, but becayse of its chance to bring back the lighting and stylization of its 2007 release, over the years the lighting was bastardized (most notably in the class selection menu, where Scout’s chin is dark as hell) and the old entities for the weapon viewmodels to give them depth, though I don’t have hope since the integration of V-script seems like the parting gift for us TF2 fans. I also feel that if Valve did port TF2 to Source 2 it would remove all of the “Source Spaghetti” and make the game actually manageable so Valve could fix questionable balancing and fucked up glitches. Though for now I have lost hope for a port, I haven’t lost hope for Valve to care again, maybe it will take time, maybe it will be after they stop updating the game, but they have to come through, right?
tf2 exists in some form of limbo/zombie state, the game is too old and cumbersome to try to savage it, and THEY NEED to remake everything from scratch because the game runs on the source 2007 branch, so everything is incompatible, that would take A LOT OF TIME compared to remaking cs go on source 2, which was built in a newer source version. it doesnt make any sense from a logistics standpoint to remake the game to source 2, especially that now VALVe is actually making games again, they dont have workforce to work on a project like this which will be more time consuming that the average dumb tf2 fan think it is. but at the same time, the game is too sucessful to just leave in his little corner gathering dust. it's a nightmare really, valve will never make the right decisions with TF2 because it just impossible, if you choose to remake the game, you will just go against your own principle, which is build new experiences from new tech/mechanics (aka built the future and not live in the past), but if you ignore it, you will waste a god like IP which is too good to die. (UPDATE : the Valve Software Community wiki implies that TF2 is using the 2013 branch of the Source Engine, but i have heard from a lot modders and devs that the game uses a lot of old code from the old branch, and it doesnt help that the game isnt multi threaded at all, so my argument stands correct...?)
@@eunaoseibrother467this is what tf2 fans need to hear honestly. The game is built upon layers and layers of old ass code that the programmers behind it are probably long dead by now
unrelated but TF2 is the only game in the world, where its fun to play medic. Litterally, you almost never need to ask people to switch to med on TF2. People just do it normally. Its kinda like playing engineer, but your sentries are people lol. You basically gotta do some insane shit to keep all your team alive. Having the ubersaw be your true primary is also different + fun
it's because medic actually feels powerful and people will respect and thank you for playing medic. in other games the healers either 1: don't feel capable or 2: are disrespected
@@DoktorBeta Yea. Also it feels secondary to the gameplay instead of primary. As a medic, your only job is healing, so you turn into Desmond Doss while you play lol. You dodge alot of shit.
@@DoktorBeta It's not just that healing is powerful, but it's also how vulnerable the medic is. The fact that medic loses uber on death and has no crazy movement tech other than praying to god the enemy shoots a convenient to surf rocket at your feet is essential. Overwatch has REALLY powerful healers, almost too powerful. Overwatch healers can teleport, fly around, and do a bunch of bananas stuff. Not to mention they can just sit behind a giant forcefield made by their tank. But TF2 Medic, he's vulnerable, you have to stay behind cover, it's tense and exciting.
LOL "the first game of valve's *that i actually care about*" and blowing up DOTA 2 with a rocket launcher is hilarious and real asf. Great and funny video. I think the new V-Script stuff is definitive proof that a Source 2 update or remake is just flat out never happening. Valve wouldn't be piling random complicated fan coded bullshit on top of their game if they had plans to ever do an overhaul. This stuff is their parting gift to us. It's fine though, Team Fortress 2 will never die! There will be AT LEAST 4 more fursona self insert bosses and AT LEAST 400 more completely forgettable holiday maps. Here's to that promising future! 🥂
If they had a source 2 port you could make the game run better than it does now. Also the style works even better on source, just keep the same style whilst improving the low res meshes and textures and add a performance mode will simplified textures that dont look like ass.
Source dev here. PBR actually stands for Physically Based Rendering. And i agree with most stuff. TF2 is not a graphics focused game. But todays hardware is just made for new tech... In source 1 "multicore rendering" is flagged as *expedimental tech* Because back then multicore processors were not even a thing really :D
Kaluka here. Yeah I've heard both and I should've done more than just a text amendment for that clarification, I didn't realize exactly how many people are tabbed out for a video.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy Its fine lol. The lighting model is calculated depending on the actual physical properties of the surface wich is simulated from the metalic, roughness maps. Thats why its called Physically Based Rendering. I actually added a lot of those features in Source 1. Full deferred rendering pipeline, PBR etc. Demonstrated on my channel. The engine is capable, but toolwise not usable on todays standarts. You can do some googling about source 1 tools, and you will see how ancient they are🤣 Code wise source 1 maps are a house with thousands of rooms with doors and models are straight up text.
Every time I start getting settled into the video because it's actually saying something remotely coherent, I'm immediately sucker-punched by him saying shit like, "Valve should give soldier boobs."
@@MacaqueStinx first of all, its not "occasional" its almost constant diversions from the topic, like a family guy cutaway except theres no warning and its 10x more common. I get that its a semi-serious video, but i only found that out upon watching the video. The topic presented would be expected to be a normal serious video, so clicking on a video about wether updating tf2 to source 2 would "even help?", i wasnt expecting to watch someones poor attempt at being a stand up comedian. Also speaking of poor attempts at humor, you used that joke format completely incorrectly, as the format is supposed to imply neither me or you need to imagine it because it applies to both of us, not just me. Im not the comedy police, and i wasnt asking the creator to change how they format or script their videos, i just pointed out how the humor detracted from what the title and thumbnail suggest the video will be like, so if anything needs to change, its the thumbnail and title.
@@jc_art_ i definitely get what you're saying. i've watched some youtubers exactly like that and it would drive me nuts. personally i think this youtuber does it greatly but that's just my opinion. for every kankula i've come across 300 other youtubers who tried the same "semi-serious video with a lot of jokes" format who end up just making the video unbelievably annoying and nigh unwatchable. it's just a matter of personal opinion atp
Screw them if you ask me. If they are going to be literally conservative with TF2 and not put aside their biases and status quo ideas to have progressive conversations. We might as well shove it down their throats and have them deal with it. I'm not going to go through any of their bs to make them happy, I want what I want. And they'll see for themselves that what I want is not as bad as they imagine.
You know, there was this UA-camr named MittenSquad, you might’ve heard of him, he passed recently, he’s was a really big Fallout and Skyrim UA-camr, you remind me of him a lot, he was one of my favorites, you have that same sense of humor and even your vibe is similar, keep up the videos, you’re insanely underrated, thank you!
Porting TF2 to another engine will be another pain in the ass when working with the "spaghetti" code of TF2. In this game, one fix is trivial, another fix fixes it. Even the 64-bit branch of TF2 is an emulation of the 32-bit version of the game. At least on TF2S2 we will get 1) full procedural generation of levels and logic in TF2, 2) an improved API like DerectX 11, 12, Vulkan 3) An improved physical model of the Rubicon engine that parallelizes the load between the GPU and CPU.
I agree with a lot of the things on this video but implying that the mechanics of ubercharge should be changed because they "don't hold up as well" is INSANE
Hal-Life: Alyx is the true 1st Source 2 Engine game and it's in VR, a massive achievement. Every other game was being tested. TF2 getting a engine upgrade would require more than a drag and drop port. It really doesn't need it since the 2nd engine would, as you put it, would suddenly be left out. The solution would be to make both versions available and reward early players with sdk access and if they manage to fix the issues would be considered for employment at best, money for their fix at mid and special items in the game at least. TF2 allows for hosting 3rd party servers and this helps with testing mods without risking the VAC.
To be honest, I am absolutely getting fed up with all these recent games taking up *_60+ GIGABYTES_* of memory every single time just so they can make texture gooners cream their stupid pants, and I doubt Valve would actually add in the gameplay changes we've all been yearning for anyway if CS2 being virtually unchanged gameplay-wise is anything to go by... *_BUT_* it is true that a newer and better engine would be better for the game overall -- whether that newer engine should be Source 2 or not is a can of worms I'm not particularly interested in delving into though.
Seeing as what happened with CS2, the concerns of TF2 fans are all kinda reinforced for me. bugs are rampant the specs required to run the game are higher vast majority of content is simply gone because valve couldn't be bothered to port it (and the game still became several times larger in file size despite having a fraction of the content) the tools have an even higher barrier to entry, since you can't even compile a map without an RTX card You know those thousands upon thousands of workshop entries? The thing keeping the game alive at all? Yeah those would all be wiped from existence as they would no longer be compatible with source 2. And what would we stand to gain from it? Improved graphics and some vague possiblity of valve maybe updating the game again (that is if the port doesn't flop, which would cause valve to instantly lose interest).
I'm willing to add that if TF2 did get a Source 2 port, it would likely kill the (though I could be wrong) community servers side of the game. First off would be custom content. Imagine the headache one would have having to recompile all of that to work on Source 2, let alone the file sizes to keep things as close to quality as everything else. Secondly, you got plugins that certain servers use like Slender Fortress or Prop Hunt. I think there's even The Hunted somewhere. Don't see those panning all too well in the hypothetical switch. Like sure, most will view these issues as an excuse, but I'd also like to see them pour hours of time to get these to work, to only than have them potentially break. Or go through the motions to update hundreds of content, some of which have multiple textures than your average TF2 weapon, to then see the server would take GBs of space. Hell, I'll be willing to exaggerate close to the size of some recent COD games that take up most space of your average computer.
My major gripe might be with, “Oh, it would be simple. The source spaghetti isn’t that bad.” Like, yea, TF2 would look holy more new with even just a port, but I do wonder, TF2 has over 150+ maps, excluding the holidays map. I want to believe that it would be far more easer, I want it that the python code that Valve them selves designed to port CS:GO map to CS2, but with how a lot CS:GO’s maps didn’t come to CS2, I am highly doubtful of if maps like Pier, Hightower, or Selben would ever see them selves in a TF:S2 version. Call me pessimistic, call me a dumb stupid poo poo head, but honestly, not hopeful for a Source 2 remake. Edit: I would say at-lest Hammer V5 would streamline the mapmaking workflow… but uhh, laptop can’t run it. Which I’ll say ‘AHHHHHGGGGGGHHHGAHAHAHH’ so yea
If anyone's curious about the draw call performance thing: draw calls are expensive because you have to wait for the data to physically reach the GPU. It's really fast, but when a frame maxes out at 16ms or 8ms, it's a big deal. Basically, it's always faster to give the GPU a giant chunk of data/instructions and say "go render all of this and come back" than to split that work into 500 chunks and say "go render this little thing and come back" 500 times. Instead of drawing each cosmetic separately, it would be more efficient to lump all the objects into a big pile and render them all at once (or at least, in larger batches)
Yeah idk why people think it's a bad thing to port over the game you'd keep the same style, mechanics, everything just with newfound opportunities balances, content and optimizations I genuinely see very few downsides to an overall great change
People have rendered various sfm cinematics using source 2 such as meet the heavy, engineer, and other. Honestly I think it makes the style pop out even more with softer lighting
It’s also worth mentioning that you could recreate the TF2 phong shading and such using custom shaders. Source 2 is also using forward rendering, and Unity URP has a PBR system but enough flexibility to let you do custom shading. Valve could get the old shaders for characters ported while having higher poly character models and selectively use PBR for certain things. Having multithreaded rendering and 64-bit support (for RAM consumption larger than 3GB) would help quite a bit with having the room to fix the downgrades.
As a bethesda fan and MODDER who KNOWS what the engine can do and what its good at I do NOT want a different engine than creation. Any other engine would heavily cripple bethesda mods, but most "fans" of bethesda games seem to either not care about, take advantage of or just outwardly hate modders.
I know you only mentioned it a little but TF2 players not wanting any changes to the base classes really sucks. The game was designed in 2007 it's not a perfectly made game. The changes to the base classes we have seen have almost always been good changes. Airblast, hauling buildings, spy buffs, sniper quickscope nerf, Faster building deploys. These have all made the game better.
The only thing TF2 needs right now is updated VAC. Bots are a problem but it's easy to kick them or just reque. Cheaters are my main issue with this game. VAC is so useless that vac banned CSGO/CS2 players can still play TF2 on Valve servers and more often than not they're cheating in TF2 but VAC isn't good enough to detect them.
Last time I played tf2 I took me 5 different requeues just to find a match not completely infested with bots. Even when I did find that match a bot would join every 5 - 8 minutes.
Nice video, but I have just noticed something terrifying. I have liked your video without realising and now I can't remember why. I think UA-cam has had a strange psychological effect on us over the years and have changed how our brains operate. I think them removing the dislike counter probably serves to strengthen this. I'll still like your video, but I can't remember why I like it.
You have the best takes on the fucking planet and you pretty much took the words out of my mouth the entire video. I was expecting this to be part of that minority that thinks S2 TF2 would be anything but a huge direct upgrade with gigantic possibilities. I'm so mad that the community does not have their hands on the game yet but Valve needs to hand it over tbh, this game can go another 20 years EASILY with steady community support.
Okay but the tf2 community cant balance that game at all bug fixes and adding new maps can go a long way But like when it comes to weapons and changing some class mechanics this part gets tricky like we know the problems but how do we go about fixing them? There are a lot of camps when it comes balancing the game and there is basically no way to make everyone happy We've seen it with balance mods Balance mods are not good at least most of them but balance mods dont go a long way they are just a gimick and nothing more The only one i consider good is fishonastick's balance mod tho it does have its issues Most fan made weapons are also either extremely OP or useless and only few people i think know they are doing take for example someone like po10tial or the guy who created the saxton hale game mode that guy has amazing spy watch concepts Tho i do hope valve adds all the fixes provided from the summer update like removing the hats or fixing some hat misc clipping there is no real harm from that
Overall while yes this a great idea that could fix many things wrong with the game, and help it better compete with more modern games. However it would take a long time to do and valve isn’t known for having the best communication skills and not doing anything for long periods of time. So they would probably to this if absolutely necessary.
@@Xx_SuperPenis_xXI think the issue is that we just need to try it *regardless* It’s not like we have a better option, everyone who had been there for the weapon designing and balancing is gone and doesn’t work on the game anymore. There is quite literally nobody left at Valve who knows how weapons like the Righteous Bison *should* work. I do think we’d need a community wide survey on every weapon in the game to be conducted to see where everybody stands, the goal shouldn’t be to please everyone, the goal should be to make sure every weapon has a defined role and niche, even if that niche is small and the weapon is just for fun. I plan on making some kind of balance discussion regarding this on a seperate channel in the future, I’d say that we should try to balance the game regardless, saying the “tf2 community doesn’t know how to balance tf2” based on balance servers isn’t a fair assessment due to the smaller sub communities they revolve around and it becoming an echo chamber. When you’d have access to something like a community wide Valve ran survey, you can suddenly get to understand what the community REALLY thinks. We really need a big name to make a survey like that.
Cool video, well made! I've heard about the community goal of making tf2 in source 2 but that's about it, and I don't play csgo/cs2. Good humour too lol
Sick video, just stumbled upon it from a deep rabbit hole trip of binging tf2 content at 3am, you know how it is, and loved it all the way through, good humor and good quality
5:51 Idk if we want to normalize software that steals from artists, in facts its kind of irresponsible to bring up the idea of doing so, but the textures don't need to be exact as long as major details are still there, nobody will pay attention to the exact groove patterns of the wood, and if Valve really wanted too they have the source files for most of their assets and could upscale them with technology that doesn't train on whats inputed then repaint what's broken, except sniper based on the leaks lol.
AI upscalers don't steal from artists, you're thinking the wrong kind of AI. They just try to train on detail patterns to come up with an acceptable solution to how something should look if it were more detailed
Friendlies are the foundation of the game. Yet they often leave a team trying to win the game down a crucial player. Hot take… what if you had dedicated friendly servers? With mini games for the mercs to play and a new map to go with it? The friendlies deserve a place in tf2. Actually, they already have one, but people hate having them where they are. So let’s put them in a place where we all end up happy.
Source 2 would literally have: -better optimization so (mostly) no need for fps configs -an excuse for valve to release content or fix old stuff (looking at you bison) -like you said, a better hammer editor -BETTER CUSTOM CONTENT WITH V-SCRIPT OH MY GOD -A BRAND SPANKING NEW ANTICHEAT SOFTWARE FOR THE BOTS -AN INFLUX OF NEW PLAYERS i **literally** don't know why valve isn't doing jack shit lately, this thing could single handedly become their most profitable game on steam HANDS DOWN and *yet* they're doing nothing
@@John-vu5qm tf2 is poorly optimized, even by todays standards. Only reason why csgo probably ran better for you is because it was being optimized the best source 1 could do, because... Well... Valve actually cares for cs
@@John-vu5qm well there's that and probably fps configs in the future. I said *mostly* no need for fps configs, not that they'll become useless and obsolete so there's still hope
Reliance on Medic is a core aspect of TF2. Remove that, You have a new Mercy in your hands. Even currently said reliance is at minimum. You have tons of health packs, items that heal people (Soldier backpacks, Madmilk, Heavy consumables, Camper and Blackboxes etc) and dispensers if need be. Having a decent medic is only necessary for sentry nest push, Remove that need then why you have Medic to begin with?
Not one of those items except for mad milk (massive citation needed) is playing the same ballgame as medic's healing can. If you're healing your team exclusively with the conch your enemies were never going to win the game regardless because they are producing almost no damage.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy You can still (and a lot of lobbies do) play the game perfectly without a medic 90% of the time. To a point, at one time there was a community issue on why nobody played Medic. Removing the need for medic is a bad idea man.
I think the game needs updates more than it needs an engine change (mainly for the sake of old hardware). Their main priority should be fixing the bot problem (which seems to be solvable, look at Uncletopia) and some performance fixes (better batching to reduce draw calls, etc). Also, the native Linux version is straight up broken, they just completely deleted it at some point. I'd be open to talk of extra improvements once they fix those fundamental issues... I don't know much about source modding so the whole modding tool quality issue is beyond me. The mechanical issues you mentioned I think are better addressed by a sequel, which would have less hardware constraints and make big changes without pissing people off.
If Valve still made games (They don't anymore) They could redo TF2, start again, new animations, gameplay mechanics and put Overwatch into the ground (befeore it do that itself). TF2 need a huge reset. It's too bloated.
Also the reason why TF2 sucks with modern machines, is because 90% of it runs on a single thread, and its highly CPU bound. Processors back in 2007 seemed to churn out more and more instructions per second, every single year. Programmers could just sit, and watch their programs get faster and faster with little effort on their part. But then processors started having diminishing returns for single core performance. Now software has to run processes on different cores to squeeze performance out of the CPU. You cant just sit around no more. Its why companies like google put so much R&D towards hardware acceleration. Being able to calculate more than just graphics using CUDA cores is powerfull.
No matter what kind of improvements they could make, the only way I would play TF Source 2 is if they bring over every single item that exists in current TF2 and they allow players to transfer their entire backpacks for free. I've put a good amount of time and money into my inventory and I would rather quit the game entirely than start over.
yes, absolutely yes. there's no future for TF2 without a source 2 upgrade. valve does not want to work on TF2 in it's current state, and the main reason CSGO got upgraded to source 2 is because source 2 is not a streamlined engine for development. source 2 has it's own problems, but they're nowhere near as bad or as long-term as source's problems are. it will take years before we get an engine upgrade, but it's the only logical step.
This is the first competent, level headed view on this topic I have ever seen. Thank you.. As a 3D artist I have to say you actually explained PBR pretty damn well instead of just saying "new engine magically means better graphics" . And your comment about all the people shitting on the source code having no idea what they are talking about is so incredibly true.
It's been an idiotic mindset ever since the ps3/360 era, the idea that engines = graphics. And no matter how many times it's explained people will still babble on in their ignorance.
the main issue with porting tf2 to source 2 is that it would most likely kill the game, alot of people who play tf2 have bad devices and cannot run something like source 2
tf2 is the hardest game to port to source 2 because the game actually got great artstyle that also effect gameplay. This not talking about engine bugs like rocket jumping. I played other games that do rocket jumping and nothing feel like tf2 and some feel either too much force or you are weightless. Edit: i am not against tf2 in S2. I am for it. It will help tf2 in the long run. But it need real effort. Valve need treat tf2 with the respect it deserves.
You had me at "use ai" for testing, i guess. But for an actual game i would hate to see anything made by ai. Edit: dont get me wrong, still love the video and your channel in general. I just have strong feelings on ai 😅
You hate the buzzword AI. I presume you think of trained generative AI models - not just averaging and upscaling textures. With textures gone over and edited by hand, there are 0 downsides to upscaled textures.
@@Frosty-ud7fv He spoke about using "AI" upscaling, where you feed an image to a program and it spits out a higher-res but thoughtless version of said image. You created a comment opposing this. In any sort of place where care is taken, this output will be tweaked as needed as to look better and more accurately represent the original texture. This does not negate the fact that the output was "AI" generated.
s2 just made csgo look like a ps5 game and honestly it looks pretty nice, would imagine tf2 would benefit from it in some ways too. what's REALLY game changing about s2 is the hammer editor getting a HEFTY UPDATE after 20 years
15:26 every component of a game/product are as important as the other. accepting the degradation of some part that used to be great is not ok. i don't care how small it is or how important the next thing. aesthetics of strongly designed game like tf2 should not be treated lightly because we got silly hats. YES i will prefer the bot problem and source 2 port but the urgency and importance of something. should not eclipse the other aspects. you saying it's ok to neglect the farming sector because people are sick of eating the same rotten food because we should focus more on curing the plague. why not work on both and make sure both are good ???
Hard disagree. Not every part of a game is equal, especially not to every person. The story of Street Fighter is dogwash and that doesn't stop it from being one of the greatest games ever penned by man.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy I didn't say that but still true. that being said. my point that other aspect should not be just neglected like that. if games were designed to accommodate the wider need and throwing anything without consideration. i fear that games will end up getting "fortniteation"ed. Also i am not fan of the idea just because majority don't care. doesn't mean that part should be ignored (not talking about pointless feature here that 99% of players don't care about) and to test your theory. would have you played a shooter if it was made of stick figures even if the gameplay was amazing ? (hey sometimes games do make it but how often is that) i am not against the idea of addressing the more important things like gameplay and bugs etc... but why not both. there's reason why those games are made by a team.
I thought the main technical problem was terrible coding (source spaghetti) stopping any attempts at developing it, also terrible optimization. My main hope for source 2 is the code that can actually be worked on, instead of being a rain summon ritual
I have a choice to make when writing a comment... I COULD compliment your delivery of jokes and how well you articulate arguments against certain talking points, in this case the one about big changes being impossible with tf2s current code, and how you think most people that use that one are full of it. OR I could forget all that noise and ask where you got that cool ass crosshair pack WHERE DID YOU GET THAT CROSSHAIR PACK?
I have no reason to dislike a TF2 S2 port other than that little feeling in the back of my brain that somehow, someway TF2 would lose some of its charm by changing how it looks.
12:08 i love idea when Spy in new version of tf2 have more backstabs eventually trickstabs killfeed icons like backstab from up now show stairstab icon, backstab from under now show understab icon, backstab on enemy that come from corner now show cornerstab icon, backstab from any explosion or surfing now show surfstab icon and another and another...
Love your humor throughout the video, most creators who make videos like you are just emotionless husks but I was giggling like a mf throughout the entire video, and I 100% agree with TF2 getting a source 2 update, genuinely a dream.
I don't see a reason why a simple engine upgrade wouldn't hurt, as long as it keeps all of the existing gameplay mechanics and useful bugs as they are. (I'm not talking about weapon stats btw) And use the upgrade as an opportunity to fix all the weird bugs (but keep the meme ones like civilian posing, demoknight's noodle arms, and the huntsman's hilariously loose definition of "head") and implement server-side aimbot detection.
Heyo. Another TF:S2 Dev here! Here's my take. [*BIG* COMMENT WARNING] - PBR: I have spent quite a bit of time adapting many TF2 assets to PBR with varying degrees of success. Initially, we found minimal benefit with PBR, often messing up the colors of many TF materials. However, after wrangling with it for a while, I'm seeing a LOT more benefits, especially with metallic and painterly materials. If Valve did it, it would be 10x easier because they have access to the Photoshop files. A lot of TF2 textures have baked ambient occlusion which is a big no-no, although for the simpler textures, I've managed to decouple the ambient occlusion and base color. - PERFORMANCE: I hear a lot of people mention this, but honestly that's not something that is guaranteed to improve. CS2 runs significantly worse than CSGO because it puts more strain on the GPU (and CSGO was already very well optimized). If they optimized CPU perf in TF2, then sure. However, older computers that do not have support for DirectX11 or Vulkan will not run the game. ATM, Team Fortress: Source 2 runs significantly worse than TF2, although that's mainly because Sbox is in-development software. - CONTENT: Not something that is talked about a lot, but expect A LOT of content to not be present in the Source 2 port. From my experience, porting maps to Source 2 is a pain in the ass. Getting the lighting "right" and fixing the incompatible stuff is annoying/difficult. It was made easier in the CS2 tools, but there is still quite a lot of manual tweaking involved. Expect Valve to prioritize the most popular game modes and maps like they did with CS2. Also, all VScript stuff and community server plugins will break. These are the main highlights, but honestly, I find it extremely unlikely they will port the game to Source 2 (or let us do it). It's a ton of effort for a game that doesn't make billions of dollars, like CS. Even looking at CSGO's Source 2 port, it took 3 years and not everyone's happy with it. I think the only time we'll see Team Fortress in Source 2 is if Valve develops a completely new game under the TF IP.
The biggest drawback of a porting tf2 isn't the code imo. It's the cosmetics. If TF2 were to get a port or a remake or a brand new version, someone would need to port just over 1800 cosmetics. eighteen *THOUSAND*. And that's without mentioning weapon reskins, warpaints AND the unusuals. A tedious task if there ever was one.
First, *eighteen hundred. Eighteen thousand would be 18000. Second, they likely wouldn't port over them all at once. That's just not feasible. But also honestly many of them wouldn't need much change and you are forgetting just how much money valve has to work with. That is the sort of thing that could be pretty easily contracted out without much quality decrease (as long as management does their job)
you do realize that Valve kept all of the original image source files for the textures right? they didn't create the textures with the compression in mind luckily and they could just migrate that over if they wanted to
I would like to believe that valve could just port over tf2s movement system into source 2 but apparently they couldn't even do it right for counter strike 2 so I have 0 faith 😭 *allegedly*
the movement in cs2 is almost identical to the movement in csgo. Theres a couple oddities bc of the whole subtick system, but i assume tf2 wouldnt use a subtick system since its unnecessary, so those oddities wouldnt be there.
![[TF2] Kritz Always Sucked](/img/n.gif)
They better not do an update rather than update with gen ai.
This video sucks but the tool i was referring to was ai upscaling which would be the only way to preserve the exact textures.
That being said many tf2 diffuses have compression so it would only work with the completely uncompressed assets, at which point valve could just release the original files which are probably 2 or 4x the size of the ones in game.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy Thank you for pinning this and replying to it, completely addressed the concerns I had when you suggested Ai usage in the video.
"tf2 will receive a heavy..." no fucking way
"load"
weapons guy
The last 3 minutes is exactly how I feel about the tf2 community overall right now. We’re so starved for content that actually matters, that people are making up scenarios to complain about
Spit, king
It's kinda sad for me that the TF2 community is just complaining nowadays. It's made the last few years of the game feel much worse than it actually was. But I can see where the aversion to the Source 2 port comes from. I don't think anyone is in opposition to the game getting a major upgrade that makes it better. I want a shiny new version of the game as much as anyone else. But a lot of the playerbase is afraid to trust Valve. Sometimes they would make these incredible updates that keep the game alive and fun and sometimes (often these days) they don't really seem to care about quality control, just pushing out obligatory holiday content. So I understand the unwillingness to trust such a huge change like a full-on new engine port. It's a lot to ask for it to happen in the first place. To ask for it to be done right and address all the issues that need it is even more of an absurd request. So I guess some people think it's better to just not take the risk and keep our dated, tangled but familiar mess of a game instead of a potentially half-baked engine port. If Valve were to take on this task, I'm sure they'd see it through fully, but the distrust of the TF2 team is at an all-time high. I can't even bring myself to blame people for it anymore, the bot crisis has been going on for like 4 years at this point.
They’re so used to surviving on bread crumbs that a cake tastes like poison to them. It’s honestly tragic.
@@LoadIsUnderrated literally demoman
It’s basically like the human body almost shutting down if you give it too much food after starving for awhile
Hard agree for the entire video
I do believe fans/the people behind TFs2 (as theyve proven to be very competent & qualified) need to go to valve and be like “Hey! We can do that!!” and get it done fairly quickly
That’s how almost all Valve games started afaik
idk who you are but I'll sub since you use steamhappy as your pfp
it's the other way around, valve saw their games/mods and contacted them
@@kalukagamingfellaguydo you have a link to your Steam account?
@@akumaking1no get it yourself haha
@@taxiHATER399haha 3000 pages go brrrrr
Hm, I wasn't sure about this video at first but then I heard your impressive qualifications, you have my undivided attention.
hi channelminer
@@martinpachu7125 Hiya Martin
Hello Channel
@@flazzorb hello hello flazzorb
I do agree than the canceling of moves in fighting games is one of the most important things that has face this earth after taunts
Taunt canceling in early TF2 was so fun.
So the list of most important things in human history is:
1. tf2 taunts
2. move canceling
3. the holocaust
@@minimaster0328 Don’t forget the discovery of fire and some 1700’s jackass getting an apple dropped on his head.
I am actually so surprised at how funny this video was
"AI UPSCALE THIS IMAGE
...
that's a bomb schematic"
I worked on TFs2 as one of the animation leads. I think the biggest benefit to a S2 engine upgrade would be the tools themselves.
Some materials and maps might receive some new or fancier lighting from an engine upgrade, but the the tools and performance would be the biggest draws. All of the S1 tools are so archaic and clunky, and using S2 tools during the development of TFs2 has made that abundantly clear. For example, S1's model compiler is an entirely text/script based system, and after you compile a model you have to open up another tool to view said model. If you want to view the texture for said model, you have to open up yet ANOTHER program to view that. In S2, ModelDoc, their model program, can view, compile, decompile, edit and do a WHOLE load of other things, all within one toolset.
Big fan of y'alls work
crowbar and qc files are made of actual nightmares
i am so glad to know that, thank god we dont have to waste 32 hours opening 50 different programs and having 50 different valve wiki pages from 10 years ago opened
@@GabrielGonzalez2 Quake DNA, hard to let it go
sorry dude, sucks what Valve has done to you guys
0:03 Literally nearly spat out my drink when "Better in every way" was instnatly followed by *HOOKERS* flashing on screen 💀💀💀
Are you trying to sell me something? This man has the voice of a infomercial man.
Only 4 Oz sirloin steaks
I’m sold
PBR can also be used horribly badly, like in case of Warcraft 3 where entier games artstyle and look was ruined due to clueless artlead slapping PBR stupidly onto it, similarily with GTA Trilogy "Definitive Edition"
My opinion on the matter is if a Source 2 version of TF2 were to be made, it should count as a separate game entirely and not replace the original. Not because I think the original is perfect or anything, but just for the sake of allowing people who already enjoy the game but don't necessarily have beastly PC specs to keep enjoying the game. The economy is in shambles, a lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck, not everyone is living comfortably enough to upgrade their PC's right now.
Something that does excite me about the prospect of such a version existing however is the idea of Valve actually caring enough about TF2 to start taking updates into their own hands again. All online communities have at least some toxic corners to them, and the TF2 community can be toxic in a lot of ways as well, but the most dangerous way is the people distinctly going out of their way to transform the game into something else entirely. Sometimes it can be kind of scary not knowing what new community created maps and game modes are going to get added in officially, and Valve has shown in the past that sometimes they barely even think about what gets the greenlight to become official and what doesn't. If Valve both took a bit more care to be picky regarding what does and doesn't become official in addition to working on their own updates behind the scenes again, I think the game would be in a much better position regarding keeping its identity and gameplay style and not getting diluted to the point of barely even being recognizable as the same game anymore. TF2 is not GMod, and should not ever become GMod.
@@tikatinu505 We probably like a lot of the same things then. That's pretty cool.
10:40 Speaking of Team Fortress 2 movement mechanics: may I remind all that you can install a mod for Half-Life 2 that makes you literally play, controls and physics and all, as Mario from Super Mario 64 for the Nintendo 64.
This also is available for many games like Minecraft and it's based on libsm64 library.
I wasn't aware of that but that's sweet
well the backwards momentum thing is already in Half Life 2 so... BLJ?
Source's entire movement can be recreated in Godot, for example
a lot of people don't understand that game engines are tools to facilitate workflow, and not some sorcery that turns abstract concepts of the arcane into a playable hat simulator
I like to think of myself as a wizard tho, pretty cool if you ask me
As some who has been tinkering around following source 2 for a bit I can say the possibilities of a port to source 2 is more then possible.
Me and a friend of mine recently got keys for s&box and we got the chance to check out TF2 source 2. The project is fantastic and it’s a shame that it got halted so abruptly, the game really benefits from the engine refresh and the way amper handled the visuals really fits. I think everyone would love for valve to port TF2 to source 2 officially but I think the chances of that really happening are very low. Valve is probably not gonna touch the tf franchise again for a long time so it’s important for the wider community to realize that if they want a team fortress in source 2 (wether it be a sequel, port, remake what have you) they’re gonna have to take it into their own hands, and I think amper software understand that well.
Glad you were able to get a key, I've been in queue hell for like 3 months
@@kalukagamingfellaguy i had like 3 keys before they stopped giving keys, didn't know who to give them to so they just expired
11:14 "basically" is a big word here, as a previous CSGO player who plays CS2 occasionally I can tell you the slight differences they didn't translate perfectly are really unfortunate. I love TF2 for a lot of its fun mechanics like rocket jumping, trimping, wallbugs, etc. and I think it'd get patched out on the way to source 2. I'd also be scared for all the custom animation, custom HUD, etc. type of mods for TF2 as they likely wouldn't translate well.
Don't forget! Valve has the original Photoshop files for these textures. So they could just... tweak a few things and re-export them.
Textures that contain text at least
I'm still early in the vid so forgive me if you get to this point later but the greatest advantage of TF2 moving to Source 2 is that ALL the devs at Valve understand Source 2. Very few still know, or want to learn previous versions of Source.
I have always wanted TF2 to be ported to Source 2 not because it could gain a new artstyle, but becayse of its chance to bring back the lighting and stylization of its 2007 release, over the years the lighting was bastardized (most notably in the class selection menu, where Scout’s chin is dark as hell) and the old entities for the weapon viewmodels to give them depth, though I don’t have hope since the integration of V-script seems like the parting gift for us TF2 fans. I also feel that if Valve did port TF2 to Source 2 it would remove all of the “Source Spaghetti” and make the game actually manageable so Valve could fix questionable balancing and fucked up glitches. Though for now I have lost hope for a port, I haven’t lost hope for Valve to care again, maybe it will take time, maybe it will be after they stop updating the game, but they have to come through, right?
Ye i dont rly have much hope for a port unless oneday in the future more than one valve employees starts to care about TF2 again
tf2 exists in some form of limbo/zombie state, the game is too old and cumbersome to try to savage it, and THEY NEED to remake everything from scratch because the game runs on the source 2007 branch, so everything is incompatible, that would take A LOT OF TIME compared to remaking cs go on source 2, which was built in a newer source version.
it doesnt make any sense from a logistics standpoint to remake the game to source 2, especially that now VALVe is actually making games again, they dont have workforce to work on a project like this which will be more time consuming that the average dumb tf2 fan think it is.
but at the same time, the game is too sucessful to just leave in his little corner gathering dust.
it's a nightmare really, valve will never make the right decisions with TF2 because it just impossible, if you choose to remake the game, you will just go against your own principle, which is build new experiences from new tech/mechanics (aka built the future and not live in the past), but if you ignore it, you will waste a god like IP which is too good to die. (UPDATE : the Valve Software Community wiki implies that TF2 is using the 2013 branch of the Source Engine, but i have heard from a lot modders and devs that the game uses a lot of old code from the old branch, and it doesnt help that the game isnt multi threaded at all, so my argument stands correct...?)
@@eunaoseibrother467this is what tf2 fans need to hear honestly. The game is built upon layers and layers of old ass code that the programmers behind it are probably long dead by now
Man's talking about the game as if it was made in 2000 BC.
@@eunaoseibrother467 "valve is actually making games again" they are?
unrelated but TF2 is the only game in the world, where its fun to play medic.
Litterally, you almost never need to ask people to switch to med on TF2. People just do it normally.
Its kinda like playing engineer, but your sentries are people lol.
You basically gotta do some insane shit to keep all your team alive. Having the ubersaw be your true primary is also different + fun
people love medic because its very important to have one just existing in your team, changing this system will effect the whole game
@@_Catgirl_Connoisseur_Its a core aspect of the game.
it's because medic actually feels powerful and people will respect and thank you for playing medic. in other games the healers either 1: don't feel capable or 2: are disrespected
@@DoktorBeta Yea. Also it feels secondary to the gameplay instead of primary. As a medic, your only job is healing, so you turn into Desmond Doss while you play lol. You dodge alot of shit.
@@DoktorBeta It's not just that healing is powerful, but it's also how vulnerable the medic is. The fact that medic loses uber on death and has no crazy movement tech other than praying to god the enemy shoots a convenient to surf rocket at your feet is essential. Overwatch has REALLY powerful healers, almost too powerful. Overwatch healers can teleport, fly around, and do a bunch of bananas stuff. Not to mention they can just sit behind a giant forcefield made by their tank.
But TF2 Medic, he's vulnerable, you have to stay behind cover, it's tense and exciting.
LOL "the first game of valve's *that i actually care about*" and blowing up DOTA 2 with a rocket launcher is hilarious and real asf. Great and funny video.
I think the new V-Script stuff is definitive proof that a Source 2 update or remake is just flat out never happening.
Valve wouldn't be piling random complicated fan coded bullshit on top of their game if they had plans to ever do an overhaul. This stuff is their parting gift to us.
It's fine though, Team Fortress 2 will never die! There will be AT LEAST 4 more fursona self insert bosses and AT LEAST 400 more completely forgettable holiday maps. Here's to that promising future! 🥂
Omg is that the spooky tf2 gunslinger 2009 guy?
What do you mean fursona self insert? can i have a source mr overtime?
@@DOOMSMANNhe means krampus
ah yes krampus, totally the fursona of some german guy from like 100 years ago idk@@Blane811
please say cap about Krampus being a self insert. 😨 idk if I can handle this after the vore war paint
If they had a source 2 port you could make the game run better than it does now. Also the style works even better on source, just keep the same style whilst improving the low res meshes and textures and add a performance mode will simplified textures that dont look like ass.
Source dev here. PBR actually stands for Physically Based Rendering. And i agree with most stuff. TF2 is not a graphics focused game. But todays hardware is just made for new tech...
In source 1 "multicore rendering" is flagged as *expedimental tech* Because back then multicore processors were not even a thing really :D
Kaluka here. Yeah I've heard both and I should've done more than just a text amendment for that clarification, I didn't realize exactly how many people are tabbed out for a video.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy Its fine lol. The lighting model is calculated depending on the actual physical properties of the surface wich is simulated from the metalic, roughness maps. Thats why its called Physically Based Rendering. I actually added a lot of those features in Source 1. Full deferred rendering pipeline, PBR etc. Demonstrated on my channel. The engine is capable, but toolwise not usable on todays standarts. You can do some googling about source 1 tools, and you will see how ancient they are🤣 Code wise source 1 maps are a house with thousands of rooms with doors and models are straight up text.
Every time I start getting settled into the video because it's actually saying something remotely coherent, I'm immediately sucker-punched by him saying shit like, "Valve should give soldier boobs."
Yeah theres another random=funny joke every 5 seconds and its genuinely making the video unwatchable for me. Oh well, i guess 😅
Imagine being unable to digest occasional humor, in a semi-serious video of all things. @@jc_art_
@@MacaqueStinx first of all, its not "occasional" its almost constant diversions from the topic, like a family guy cutaway except theres no warning and its 10x more common.
I get that its a semi-serious video, but i only found that out upon watching the video. The topic presented would be expected to be a normal serious video, so clicking on a video about wether updating tf2 to source 2 would "even help?", i wasnt expecting to watch someones poor attempt at being a stand up comedian.
Also speaking of poor attempts at humor, you used that joke format completely incorrectly, as the format is supposed to imply neither me or you need to imagine it because it applies to both of us, not just me.
Im not the comedy police, and i wasnt asking the creator to change how they format or script their videos, i just pointed out how the humor detracted from what the title and thumbnail suggest the video will be like, so if anything needs to change, its the thumbnail and title.
🤓☝
@@jc_art_ i definitely get what you're saying. i've watched some youtubers exactly like that and it would drive me nuts. personally i think this youtuber does it greatly but that's just my opinion. for every kankula i've come across 300 other youtubers who tried the same "semi-serious video with a lot of jokes" format who end up just making the video unbelievably annoying and nigh unwatchable. it's just a matter of personal opinion atp
A few people have been asking about the crosshairs, here they are: gamebanana.com/mods/462367
I cannot believe you are like me. You have beliefs most of the rest of the TF2 community do not have.
Screw them if you ask me. If they are going to be literally conservative with TF2 and not put aside their biases and status quo ideas to have progressive conversations. We might as well shove it down their throats and have them deal with it. I'm not going to go through any of their bs to make them happy, I want what I want. And they'll see for themselves that what I want is not as bad as they imagine.
@@Multi1ok but fempyro mod
*Never Will.*
@@DeadMemeMan source 2 would make it more accesible (and more jiggly.)
You know, there was this UA-camr named MittenSquad, you might’ve heard of him, he passed recently, he’s was a really big Fallout and Skyrim UA-camr, you remind me of him a lot, he was one of my favorites, you have that same sense of humor and even your vibe is similar, keep up the videos, you’re insanely underrated, thank you!
love the sense of humor and the editing jokes!
Ty!
Porting TF2 to another engine will be another pain in the ass when working with the "spaghetti" code of TF2. In this game, one fix is trivial, another fix fixes it.
Even the 64-bit branch of TF2 is an emulation of the 32-bit version of the game.
At least on TF2S2 we will get 1) full procedural generation of levels and logic in TF2, 2) an improved API like DerectX 11, 12, Vulkan
3) An improved physical model of the Rubicon engine that parallelizes the load between the GPU and CPU.
What was with that HOOKERS screen 😭
I agree with a lot of the things on this video but implying that the mechanics of ubercharge should be changed because they "don't hold up as well" is INSANE
Hal-Life: Alyx is the true 1st Source 2 Engine game and it's in VR, a massive achievement.
Every other game was being tested.
TF2 getting a engine upgrade would require more than a drag and drop port. It really doesn't need it since the 2nd engine would, as you put it, would suddenly be left out.
The solution would be to make both versions available and reward early players with sdk access and if they manage to fix the issues would be considered for employment at best, money for their fix at mid and special items in the game at least.
TF2 allows for hosting 3rd party servers and this helps with testing mods without risking the VAC.
I think TF2 deserves a bit of a clean slate.
Why do tf2 content creators complain about hats but then have all 3 cosmetic slots on every class equipped and painted?
Genuinely no idea
Halfway through the video I wanted to subscribe, but it turns out that I already am subscribed
Hook line and sinker
0:49 Well that aged well
Indeed.
What happened?
@@anyoneatall3488 Source 2 port for TF2 got DMCA'd by Valve themselves.
@@maximusdavisthe project was in development hell and basically abandoned a while ago before valve sent them to the coffin tho
To be honest, I am absolutely getting fed up with all these recent games taking up *_60+ GIGABYTES_* of memory every single time just so they can make texture gooners cream their stupid pants, and I doubt Valve would actually add in the gameplay changes we've all been yearning for anyway if CS2 being virtually unchanged gameplay-wise is anything to go by... *_BUT_* it is true that a newer and better engine would be better for the game overall -- whether that newer engine should be Source 2 or not is a can of worms I'm not particularly interested in delving into though.
Seeing as what happened with CS2, the concerns of TF2 fans are all kinda reinforced for me.
bugs are rampant
the specs required to run the game are higher
vast majority of content is simply gone because valve couldn't be bothered to port it (and the game still became several times larger in file size despite having a fraction of the content)
the tools have an even higher barrier to entry, since you can't even compile a map without an RTX card
You know those thousands upon thousands of workshop entries? The thing keeping the game alive at all? Yeah those would all be wiped from existence as they would no longer be compatible with source 2.
And what would we stand to gain from it? Improved graphics and some vague possiblity of valve maybe updating the game again (that is if the port doesn't flop, which would cause valve to instantly lose interest).
I'm willing to add that if TF2 did get a Source 2 port, it would likely kill the (though I could be wrong) community servers side of the game. First off would be custom content. Imagine the headache one would have having to recompile all of that to work on Source 2, let alone the file sizes to keep things as close to quality as everything else. Secondly, you got plugins that certain servers use like Slender Fortress or Prop Hunt. I think there's even The Hunted somewhere. Don't see those panning all too well in the hypothetical switch.
Like sure, most will view these issues as an excuse, but I'd also like to see them pour hours of time to get these to work, to only than have them potentially break. Or go through the motions to update hundreds of content, some of which have multiple textures than your average TF2 weapon, to then see the server would take GBs of space. Hell, I'll be willing to exaggerate close to the size of some recent COD games that take up most space of your average computer.
Shounic made a video of converting a map into source 2. In my opinion, it worked well.
9:19 i like the idea that 184,888 dudes just decided to watch epic camera flee through hl2's lost coast all at the same time.
My major gripe might be with, “Oh, it would be simple. The source spaghetti isn’t that bad.” Like, yea, TF2 would look holy more new with even just a port, but I do wonder, TF2 has over 150+ maps, excluding the holidays map.
I want to believe that it would be far more easer, I want it that the python code that Valve them selves designed to port CS:GO map to CS2, but with how a lot CS:GO’s maps didn’t come to CS2, I am highly doubtful of if maps like Pier, Hightower, or Selben would ever see them selves in a TF:S2 version.
Call me pessimistic, call me a dumb stupid poo poo head, but honestly, not hopeful for a Source 2 remake.
Edit: I would say at-lest Hammer V5 would streamline the mapmaking workflow… but uhh, laptop can’t run it. Which I’ll say ‘AHHHHHGGGGGGHHHGAHAHAHH’ so yea
How do you only have 11k subs, prob one of the best commentaries about nothing, ever, i dont even like tf2 and i watched it all. Subbed
Thank you I appreciate that
If anyone's curious about the draw call performance thing: draw calls are expensive because you have to wait for the data to physically reach the GPU. It's really fast, but when a frame maxes out at 16ms or 8ms, it's a big deal.
Basically, it's always faster to give the GPU a giant chunk of data/instructions and say "go render all of this and come back" than to split that work into 500 chunks and say "go render this little thing and come back" 500 times. Instead of drawing each cosmetic separately, it would be more efficient to lump all the objects into a big pile and render them all at once (or at least, in larger batches)
13:05
the dragon's fury's honest reaction:
6:13 "That's a bomb schematic" absolutely killed me
Yeah idk why people think it's a bad thing to port over the game you'd keep the same style, mechanics, everything just with newfound opportunities balances, content and optimizations I genuinely see very few downsides to an overall great change
People are averse to change because Valve already blew major overhauls like what happened with Meet Your Match. Trust is very low.
People have rendered various sfm cinematics using source 2 such as meet the heavy, engineer, and other. Honestly I think it makes the style pop out even more with softer lighting
It’s also worth mentioning that you could recreate the TF2 phong shading and such using custom shaders. Source 2 is also using forward rendering, and Unity URP has a PBR system but enough flexibility to let you do custom shading.
Valve could get the old shaders for characters ported while having higher poly character models and selectively use PBR for certain things.
Having multithreaded rendering and 64-bit support (for RAM consumption larger than 3GB) would help quite a bit with having the room to fix the downgrades.
As a bethesda fan and MODDER who KNOWS what the engine can do and what its good at I do NOT want a different engine than creation. Any other engine would heavily cripple bethesda mods, but most "fans" of bethesda games seem to either not care about, take advantage of or just outwardly hate modders.
Thousands of cosmetic models in source 2 would make tf2 800gb
0/10 the bandsaw dulled out against my skull
based
0:28 the laughs was actually because of that molotov, bro wtf
I forgot csgo changes the trajectory of your grenades based on how you're moving, I don't ever play it unless I need footage.
I know you only mentioned it a little but TF2 players not wanting any changes to the base classes really sucks. The game was designed in 2007 it's not a perfectly made game.
The changes to the base classes we have seen have almost always been good changes. Airblast, hauling buildings, spy buffs, sniper quickscope nerf, Faster building deploys. These have all made the game better.
Agreed, engineer in 2007 was garbage compared to now
if team fortress 2 were to be source 2 then source 2'd team fortress source 2 would be source 2 team fortress 2
The only thing TF2 needs right now is updated VAC. Bots are a problem but it's easy to kick them or just reque. Cheaters are my main issue with this game.
VAC is so useless that vac banned CSGO/CS2 players can still play TF2 on Valve servers and more often than not they're cheating in TF2 but VAC isn't good enough to detect them.
Last time I played tf2 I took me 5 different requeues just to find a match not completely infested with bots. Even when I did find that match a bot would join every 5 - 8 minutes.
This is the funniest thing I've seen since the Poopy Joe incident.
Nice video, but I have just noticed something terrifying. I have liked your video without realising and now I can't remember why.
I think UA-cam has had a strange psychological effect on us over the years and have changed how our brains operate.
I think them removing the dislike counter probably serves to strengthen this. I'll still like your video, but I can't remember why I like it.
Aware
if tf2 got a s2 update, pyrosharks would have a field day due to people admiring the water on 2fort
You have the best takes on the fucking planet and you pretty much took the words out of my mouth the entire video. I was expecting this to be part of that minority that thinks S2 TF2 would be anything but a huge direct upgrade with gigantic possibilities. I'm so mad that the community does not have their hands on the game yet but Valve needs to hand it over tbh, this game can go another 20 years EASILY with steady community support.
Okay but the tf2 community cant balance that game at all bug fixes and adding new maps can go a long way
But like when it comes to weapons and changing some class mechanics this part gets tricky like we know the problems but how do we go about fixing them? There are a lot of camps when it comes balancing the game and there is basically no way to make everyone happy
We've seen it with balance mods
Balance mods are not good at least most of them but balance mods dont go a long way they are just a gimick and nothing more
The only one i consider good is fishonastick's balance mod tho it does have its issues
Most fan made weapons are also either extremely OP or useless and only few people i think know they are doing take for example someone like po10tial or the guy who created the saxton hale game mode that guy has amazing spy watch concepts
Tho i do hope valve adds all the fixes provided from the summer update like removing the hats or fixing some hat misc clipping there is no real harm from that
Overall while yes this a great idea that could fix many things wrong with the game, and help it better compete with more modern games. However it would take a long time to do and valve isn’t known for having the best communication skills and not doing anything for long periods of time. So they would probably to this if absolutely necessary.
@@Xx_SuperPenis_xXI think the issue is that we just need to try it *regardless*
It’s not like we have a better option, everyone who had been there for the weapon designing and balancing is gone and doesn’t work on the game anymore.
There is quite literally nobody left at Valve who knows how weapons like the Righteous Bison *should* work.
I do think we’d need a community wide survey on every weapon in the game to be conducted to see where everybody stands, the goal shouldn’t be to please everyone, the goal should be to make sure every weapon has a defined role and niche, even if that niche is small and the weapon is just for fun.
I plan on making some kind of balance discussion regarding this on a seperate channel in the future, I’d say that we should try to balance the game regardless, saying the “tf2 community doesn’t know how to balance tf2” based on balance servers isn’t a fair assessment due to the smaller sub communities they revolve around and it becoming an echo chamber.
When you’d have access to something like a community wide Valve ran survey, you can suddenly get to understand what the community REALLY thinks. We really need a big name to make a survey like that.
6:45 welcome to how it feels to be a half life fan…
Cool video, well made! I've heard about the community goal of making tf2 in source 2 but that's about it, and I don't play csgo/cs2.
Good humour too lol
Ty!
Sick video, just stumbled upon it from a deep rabbit hole trip of binging tf2 content at 3am, you know how it is, and loved it all the way through, good humor and good quality
Ty!
5:51 Idk if we want to normalize software that steals from artists, in facts its kind of irresponsible to bring up the idea of doing so, but the textures don't need to be exact as long as major details are still there, nobody will pay attention to the exact groove patterns of the wood, and if Valve really wanted too they have the source files for most of their assets and could upscale them with technology that doesn't train on whats inputed then repaint what's broken, except sniper based on the leaks lol.
AI upscalers don't steal from artists, you're thinking the wrong kind of AI. They just try to train on detail patterns to come up with an acceptable solution to how something should look if it were more detailed
@@OmegaRC59 He wasn't using an ai upscaler, and I didnt say that ai upscalers did such a thing. I advocated for its use over generative ai's.
Why does everyone always lead with the argument of "It sTeALs fRom ArtiSts" like there are far worse issues with companies using this tech.
That window molly from underpass gave me multiple sclerosis. You even made it slow motion to prolong the suffering.
9:00 you forgot to say killers after friendlies
Nope
Friendlies are the foundation of the game. Yet they often leave a team trying to win the game down a crucial player.
Hot take… what if you had dedicated friendly servers? With mini games for the mercs to play and a new map to go with it?
The friendlies deserve a place in tf2. Actually, they already have one, but people hate having them where they are. So let’s put them in a place where we all end up happy.
Source 2 would literally have:
-better optimization so (mostly) no need for fps configs
-an excuse for valve to release content or fix old stuff (looking at you bison)
-like you said, a better hammer editor
-BETTER CUSTOM CONTENT WITH V-SCRIPT OH MY GOD
-A BRAND SPANKING NEW ANTICHEAT SOFTWARE FOR THE BOTS
-AN INFLUX OF NEW PLAYERS
i **literally** don't know why valve isn't doing jack shit lately, this thing could single handedly become their most profitable game on steam HANDS DOWN and *yet* they're doing nothing
how would it have better optimization man? i used to love playing csgo and now i cant run cs2
@@John-vu5qm tf2 is poorly optimized, even by todays standards. Only reason why csgo probably ran better for you is because it was being optimized the best source 1 could do, because... Well... Valve actually cares for cs
@@phanton4305 that makes sense, maybe when valve optimizes source 2 more ill be able to play again?
@@John-vu5qm well there's that and probably fps configs in the future. I said *mostly* no need for fps configs, not that they'll become useless and obsolete so there's still hope
Reliance on Medic is a core aspect of TF2. Remove that, You have a new Mercy in your hands.
Even currently said reliance is at minimum. You have tons of health packs, items that heal people (Soldier backpacks, Madmilk, Heavy consumables, Camper and Blackboxes etc) and dispensers if need be. Having a decent medic is only necessary for sentry nest push, Remove that need then why you have Medic to begin with?
Not one of those items except for mad milk (massive citation needed) is playing the same ballgame as medic's healing can. If you're healing your team exclusively with the conch your enemies were never going to win the game regardless because they are producing almost no damage.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy You can still (and a lot of lobbies do) play the game perfectly without a medic 90% of the time.
To a point, at one time there was a community issue on why nobody played Medic.
Removing the need for medic is a bad idea man.
I love how this video is genuinely both funny and informative.
I think the game needs updates more than it needs an engine change (mainly for the sake of old hardware). Their main priority should be fixing the bot problem (which seems to be solvable, look at Uncletopia) and some performance fixes (better batching to reduce draw calls, etc). Also, the native Linux version is straight up broken, they just completely deleted it at some point. I'd be open to talk of extra improvements once they fix those fundamental issues... I don't know much about source modding so the whole modding tool quality issue is beyond me.
The mechanical issues you mentioned I think are better addressed by a sequel, which would have less hardware constraints and make big changes without pissing people off.
If Valve still made games (They don't anymore) They could redo TF2, start again, new animations, gameplay mechanics and put Overwatch into the ground (befeore it do that itself).
TF2 need a huge reset. It's too bloated.
How can people still ha e beef with overwatch?
Tf2's engine literally has surface based material system, it's just not utilized
if they're not gonna use it then who cares lol
@@kalukagamingfellaguy ur whole argument was s2 does this but source engine doesn't
Tf2 should be updated to the CSGO branch of source 1, offering more entities to mess with in hammer ever since left 4 dead, and portal
Also the reason why TF2 sucks with modern machines, is because 90% of it runs on a single thread, and its highly CPU bound.
Processors back in 2007 seemed to churn out more and more instructions per second, every single year.
Programmers could just sit, and watch their programs get faster and faster with little effort on their part.
But then processors started having diminishing returns for single core performance.
Now software has to run processes on different cores to squeeze performance out of the CPU. You cant just sit around no more.
Its why companies like google put so much R&D towards hardware acceleration. Being able to calculate more than just graphics using CUDA cores is powerfull.
No matter what kind of improvements they could make, the only way I would play TF Source 2 is if they bring over every single item that exists in current TF2 and they allow players to transfer their entire backpacks for free. I've put a good amount of time and money into my inventory and I would rather quit the game entirely than start over.
amen to that brother
They did it with csgo. I can see them doing it with tf2.
i subscribed to this channel for fistful of frags what is this old ass cartoon game you keep showing.
where are the cowboys :(
yes, absolutely yes. there's no future for TF2 without a source 2 upgrade. valve does not want to work on TF2 in it's current state, and the main reason CSGO got upgraded to source 2 is because source 2 is not a streamlined engine for development. source 2 has it's own problems, but they're nowhere near as bad or as long-term as source's problems are.
it will take years before we get an engine upgrade, but it's the only logical step.
This is the first competent, level headed view on this topic I have ever seen. Thank you..
As a 3D artist I have to say you actually explained PBR pretty damn well instead of just saying "new engine magically means better graphics" .
And your comment about all the people shitting on the source code having no idea what they are talking about is so incredibly true.
It's been an idiotic mindset ever since the ps3/360 era, the idea that engines = graphics. And no matter how many times it's explained people will still babble on in their ignorance.
the main issue with porting tf2 to source 2 is that it would most likely kill the game, alot of people who play tf2 have bad devices and cannot run something like source 2
tf2 is the hardest game to port to source 2 because the game actually got great artstyle that also effect gameplay. This not talking about engine bugs like rocket jumping. I played other games that do rocket jumping and nothing feel like tf2 and some feel either too much force or you are weightless.
Edit: i am not against tf2 in S2. I am for it. It will help tf2 in the long run. But it need real effort. Valve need treat tf2 with the respect it deserves.
Good points
0:30 seconds in, you already deserve a sub for the editing and comedic genius
You had me at "use ai" for testing, i guess. But for an actual game i would hate to see anything made by ai.
Edit: dont get me wrong, still love the video and your channel in general. I just have strong feelings on ai 😅
You hate the buzzword AI. I presume you think of trained generative AI models - not just averaging and upscaling textures. With textures gone over and edited by hand, there are 0 downsides to upscaled textures.
@blueberrimuffin6682 then that's not ai? If it's done by hand
@@Frosty-ud7fv He spoke about using "AI" upscaling, where you feed an image to a program and it spits out a higher-res but thoughtless version of said image. You created a comment opposing this. In any sort of place where care is taken, this output will be tweaked as needed as to look better and more accurately represent the original texture. This does not negate the fact that the output was "AI" generated.
the lack of care from valve created a coping mechanism in no-life tf2 dwellers which made them puritists and now they think that rotting is great
Goated comment
s2 just made csgo look like a ps5 game and honestly it looks pretty nice, would imagine tf2 would benefit from it in some ways too. what's REALLY game changing about s2 is the hammer editor getting a HEFTY UPDATE after 20 years
Yeah Hammer 2 is insanely good compared to the OG, you can actually compile more than once a week
15:26 every component of a game/product are as important as the other. accepting the degradation of some part that used to be great is not ok. i don't care how small it is or how important the next thing. aesthetics of strongly designed game like tf2 should not be treated lightly because we got silly hats. YES i will prefer the bot problem and source 2 port but the urgency and importance of something. should not eclipse the other aspects.
you saying it's ok to neglect the farming sector because people are sick of eating the same rotten food because we should focus more on curing the plague. why not work on both and make sure both are good ???
Hard disagree. Not every part of a game is equal, especially not to every person. The story of Street Fighter is dogwash and that doesn't stop it from being one of the greatest games ever penned by man.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy I didn't say that but still true. that being said. my point that other aspect should not be just neglected like that. if games were designed to accommodate the wider need and throwing anything without consideration. i fear that games will end up getting "fortniteation"ed. Also i am not fan of the idea just because majority don't care. doesn't mean that part should be ignored (not talking about pointless feature here that 99% of players don't care about) and to test your theory. would have you played a shooter if it was made of stick figures even if the gameplay was amazing ? (hey sometimes games do make it but how often is that)
i am not against the idea of addressing the more important things like gameplay and bugs etc... but why not both. there's reason why those games are made by a team.
I thought the main technical problem was terrible coding (source spaghetti) stopping any attempts at developing it, also terrible optimization.
My main hope for source 2 is the code that can actually be worked on, instead of being a rain summon ritual
tf2 but every time you eat the sandvich as heavy you have to eat one irl
I have a choice to make when writing a comment...
I COULD compliment your delivery of jokes and how well you articulate arguments against certain talking points, in this case the one about big changes being impossible with tf2s current code, and how you think most people that use that one are full of it.
OR
I could forget all that noise and ask where you got that cool ass crosshair pack
WHERE DID YOU GET THAT CROSSHAIR PACK?
It's called the tf2 improved crosshair pack on gamebanana, I would recommend turning the scale down tho cause by default they are huge
@@kalukagamingfellaguy Thanks g
I liked the comedy bits. You have earned a new subscriber.
I have no reason to dislike a TF2 S2 port other than that little feeling in the back of my brain that somehow, someway TF2 would lose some of its charm by changing how it looks.
Look at meet the team stuff in S2. They look so good and highlight the art style so well.
@@tfx9223 It looks too RGX for my liking
12:08 i love idea when Spy in new version of tf2 have more backstabs eventually trickstabs killfeed icons like backstab from up now show stairstab icon, backstab from under now show understab icon, backstab on enemy that come from corner now show cornerstab icon, backstab from any explosion or surfing now show surfstab icon and another and another...
Love your humor throughout the video, most creators who make videos like you are just emotionless husks but I was giggling like a mf throughout the entire video, and I 100% agree with TF2 getting a source 2 update, genuinely a dream.
I don't see a reason why a simple engine upgrade wouldn't hurt, as long as it keeps all of the existing gameplay mechanics and useful bugs as they are. (I'm not talking about weapon stats btw)
And use the upgrade as an opportunity to fix all the weird bugs (but keep the meme ones like civilian posing, demoknight's noodle arms, and the huntsman's hilariously loose definition of "head") and implement server-side aimbot detection.
Heyo. Another TF:S2 Dev here! Here's my take.
[*BIG* COMMENT WARNING]
- PBR: I have spent quite a bit of time adapting many TF2 assets to PBR with varying degrees of success. Initially, we found minimal benefit with PBR, often messing up the colors of many TF materials. However, after wrangling with it for a while, I'm seeing a LOT more benefits, especially with metallic and painterly materials. If Valve did it, it would be 10x easier because they have access to the Photoshop files. A lot of TF2 textures have baked ambient occlusion which is a big no-no, although for the simpler textures, I've managed to decouple the ambient occlusion and base color.
- PERFORMANCE: I hear a lot of people mention this, but honestly that's not something that is guaranteed to improve. CS2 runs significantly worse than CSGO because it puts more strain on the GPU (and CSGO was already very well optimized). If they optimized CPU perf in TF2, then sure. However, older computers that do not have support for DirectX11 or Vulkan will not run the game. ATM, Team Fortress: Source 2 runs significantly worse than TF2, although that's mainly because Sbox is in-development software.
- CONTENT: Not something that is talked about a lot, but expect A LOT of content to not be present in the Source 2 port. From my experience, porting maps to Source 2 is a pain in the ass. Getting the lighting "right" and fixing the incompatible stuff is annoying/difficult. It was made easier in the CS2 tools, but there is still quite a lot of manual tweaking involved. Expect Valve to prioritize the most popular game modes and maps like they did with CS2. Also, all VScript stuff and community server plugins will break.
These are the main highlights, but honestly, I find it extremely unlikely they will port the game to Source 2 (or let us do it). It's a ton of effort for a game that doesn't make billions of dollars, like CS. Even looking at CSGO's Source 2 port, it took 3 years and not everyone's happy with it.
I think the only time we'll see Team Fortress in Source 2 is if Valve develops a completely new game under the TF IP.
Your voice is elegant. Wouldn't expect it from this kind of video/content, but I can't complain
I just want 4 cosmetics slots but INCREDIBLE VIDEO
yeah same
The biggest drawback of a porting tf2 isn't the code imo. It's the cosmetics. If TF2 were to get a port or a remake or a brand new version, someone would need to port just over 1800 cosmetics. eighteen *THOUSAND*. And that's without mentioning weapon reskins, warpaints AND the unusuals. A tedious task if there ever was one.
First, *eighteen hundred. Eighteen thousand would be 18000.
Second, they likely wouldn't port over them all at once. That's just not feasible. But also honestly many of them wouldn't need much change and you are forgetting just how much money valve has to work with. That is the sort of thing that could be pretty easily contracted out without much quality decrease (as long as management does their job)
Oh dear this has aged poorly
Love your sense of humor man. Hilarious shit, been looking for something like this for a while.
I don't trust valve anymore
you do realize that Valve kept all of the original image source files for the textures right? they didn't create the textures with the compression in mind luckily and they could just migrate that over if they wanted to
I would like to believe that valve could just port over tf2s movement system into source 2 but apparently they couldn't even do it right for counter strike 2 so I have 0 faith 😭
*allegedly*
the movement in cs2 is almost identical to the movement in csgo. Theres a couple oddities bc of the whole subtick system, but i assume tf2 wouldnt use a subtick system since its unnecessary, so those oddities wouldnt be there.