Definition of Music Music is an art form that combines either vocal or instrumental sounds, sometimes both, using form, harmony, and expression of emotion to convey an idea. Music represents many different forms that play key factors in cultures around the world.
@@talaniel From the 'pedia: The name "ocelot" comes from the Nahuatl word ōcēlōtl (pronounced [oːˈseːloːt͡ɬ]), which generally refers to the jaguar, rather than the ocelot.[3][4][5] Another possible origin for the name is the Latin ocellatus ("having little eyes" or "marked with eye-like spots"), in reference to the cat's spotted coat.[6] Other vernacular names for the ocelot include cunaguaro (Venezuela), gato onza (Argentina), gato tigre (Panama), heitigrikati (Suriname), jaguatirica, maracaja (Brazil), manigordo (Costa Rica, Panama and Venezuela), mathuntori, ocelote, onsa, pumillo, tiger cat (Belize), tigrecillo (Bolivia) and tigrillo (Colombia, Ecuador, Guatemala, and Peru).
I love how often people when disagreeing online, and often in person, just get annoyed, fire off some non sequiturs, insult, be generally contrarian and so on. It's seems they are not really making an argument using the components of what defines an argument, premises, conclusions, deductions, inductions, chains of logic etc. Instead they are taking the tone, vibes etc of disagreement, more the aesthetic of an argument, layering it over something else and...... wait a minute.
Music- vocal or instrumental sounds (or both)combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form , harmony , and expression of emotion. This is the definition of music. Your title says metal is still not music. Metal fits that definition, therefore metal IS music.
Can we talk about the fact that sonic qualities are also musical characteristics? Just like a chord plays multiple frequencies, a distorted sound elevates a great variety of frequencies as well, which makes it sound very different. Playing a very conventional major chord with a heavily distorted tone will make it sound dissonant even though there is no intended dissonance whatsoever.
Guess we can skip the notes entirely then, seems like that's what metal wants. I guess your amp settings ARE just as important than what you're playing
I hope you don't mean that sarcastically, because that would be a strawman fallacy. Tone - which, just so we're clear, is a great deal more than just amp settings - is important enough to be considered a trait of a specific genre, even if it's not a primary trait of a style of music. Thus we are proving that sound qualities are indeed a musical characteristic.
I'm saying you're focusing on the wrong shit. Trying to put tone on the same level of importance as note choices, chord progressions, rhythms, and phrasing gives us a less usable definition, and clutters the musician's priorities. You can spend 10 years perfecting your tone and still not have a song worth playing through your rig.
Today I came across your video, "Metal is not music", for the first time, and then saw this follow-up where you respond to the comments. I have to say, I completely understood your point just from the title, and that’s incredible. It made me think of so many bands I’ve been into recently, like Sleep Token, Falling In Reverse, Electric Callboy, and others. What’s amazing is how I’ve internalized this concept without even realizing it. You’re absolutely right. This is exactly what makes those bands stand out. They’re incredibly talented musicians who not only know how to write amazing piece of music but also know how to tap into the essence of metal that makes it so unique and magical. Their ability to seamlessly jump between genres is part of their brilliance, and it’s what keeps their music so engaging and fresh. Well done, man! This is fantastic content.
"If you listen to these specific country artists you can definitely hear genre specific things." Yeah, can't do that at all for metal. "I'm genuinely not trying to create drama." _spends how much time reading comments in mocking voices_ You can say most of these things for most genres of music. That doesn't mean they aren't genres of music.
Timbre was only part of my argument. Jazz has extended harmony or at least 7th chords across multiple if not all subgenres as a unifying feature, which you have addressed to being traced back to the lineage of the genre in this video. So why can't Metal having harmony comprising largely of 5ths (power chords) with short melodic phrases (riffs) interwoven be considered a unifying characteristic coming from Blues and Rock? The other part of my argument was in reference to the examples showing that Jazz composition is recognisable in other styles of music regardless of timbre with the the use of your Motor Synth. Which you argue that Metal composition isn't recognisable. How come we can recognise metal composition when being emulated in the original DOOM games, chip tune style like in video games from the late 80s and 90s, Bardcore and other styles of music? It can't just be sound design, the sounds need to arranged into riffs and drum beats that are based on existing metal compositions.
It's because it's NOT unifying - those things exist in some metal, but not others, and it's not exclusive to metal. There's no consistency. Fusion is a great example of the opposite of a metal subgenre - in metal, they'll take folk music and add metal instrumentation, and we get folk metal - Amorphis literally took Finnish folk songs and incorporated them verbatim. Fusion wasn't rock musicians looking to make their music jazzier, it was the opposite - it was jazz incorporating the rock aesthetic with distorted guitars and straight time etc. The timbre/sound design/production aspect is definitive of metal because it's the ONLY constant. It's not 100% entirely exclusive because hardcore shares more or less the same sound aesthetic, but whatcha gonna do.
@@treyxaviermusic But it is for the most part and Folk Metal has power chord with riffs in between. By your own word it doesn't need to cover every single style like you said it'd be rare to find a jazz act that doesn't use 7ths or extended harmony. Doesn't mean it's not Jazz. Literally the unifying characteristic I want considered can be found in every major subgenre. Heavy Metal Doom Stoner Speed Thrash Glam Power Progressive Death Grindcore Black Metal Sludge Nu Metal Metalcore Deathcore Djent all use power chords and riffs. in reference to me saying Power Chords and Riffs you said "those things exist in some metal, but not others, and it's not exclusive to metal." You just said in this video that the harmony in Jazz isn't exclusive to it but consider it a unifying feature?! Dude the mental gymnastics to pull off this argument are insane! You aren't addressing the latter part of my first comment. Metal is more than its sound design as it's recognisable in different styles such as being emulated in DOOM, chip tune, bardcore and other styles. Those sounds have to be arranged into Riffs and Drum Beats that are based on existing metal compositions otherwise it may well indeed end up sounding like Hardcore etc.
You still haven't convinced me. I think the problem is that you've made up your own definition of what defines a musical genre. And since it doesn't fit your definition, you're always right. Since I have little time, I just go to Wiki, which has of course a page about genre. Of course there's not one definition, but they say this: "In 1982, Franco Fabbri proposed a definition of the musical genre that is now considered to be normative:[ "musical genre is a set of musical events (real or possible) whose course is governed by a definite set of socially accepted rules", where a musical event can be defined as "any type of activity performed around any type of event involving sound"" By this definition, metal could well be defined as a genre. Now, apart from that you mention a few things: * Tonality: although it's (like Jazz or many other broader genres) hard to exactly define this for metal, most who've listened to metal for a while will recognize this. Often in the lower range, powerchords, minor or other dark keys etc, also the sound of the guitars (overdrive/distortion) is part of the tone! I think there's a "tonality", but it would be an interesting study to exactly define this. * Chords: you mention Jazz uses distinct chords with lots of extensions. And then you mention Metal is the exact opposite. And that indeed is in my opinion one of the musical elements: metal uses often power chords, with not even a major/minor distinction. Ideally you want this played on a distorted guitar, but it's not necessary. You can even do it on a cello and it still sounds metal (Apocalyptica) I still think metal is a genre, and actually in Fabbri's definition it fits really well. There are musical events, there's a set of socially accepted rules. It's an activity involving sound.
@@treyxaviermusic I would have to listen both video's back, so in good faith I'll take your word for it. Now you did use the word "musical style" (pretty much directly in the 1st video) and style/genre are used interchangeably. Genre though is often seen more broad than style. Still I would argue that you judge by your own definition (akin to the strawman fallacy). This is just an opinion of some random UA-camr, and not a scientific exercise. But even then, you could have started out with some kind of definition backed by sources (although in your defense you did give some properties). Your channel, your choice, and probably you're looking for a debate. Which is a good thing! I stand by my opinion that metal is a) music, b) a genre and c) a style. Narrowing it down to "tofu" with some flavour is imho not doing justice to metal (although I also see you're not taking the piss out of metal). First of all if I would follow your analogy, I would turned it around. The tofu can be any song, the flavour is making it "metal" (by using heavy guitars, drums etc.). That would actually prove my point metal is music/genre/style. What I really don't see is the need to dismiss metal as "music" or a "style". People simplify things, and calling metal a style or genre is very helpful. We all know what it means in general, although our detailed descriptions will vary on points. Still there will be overlap, and those will be around how the guitars and drums sound, use of powerchords and more dark scales. Just to be clear: I think this is a fun discussion!
I’m making a distinction between genre and musical style - genre being inclusive of the aesthetic, but musical style including only the parts of music that are separate from that. That gives us only the really quantifiable parts to work with.
Personally, I still think you are eliding a bunch of truly musical features under the umbrella of “sound design” and “aesthetic.” They tend to be more abstract features than other genres, but they are no less musical, imo. Timbre, which you mention, is one of those features. But other things like aggression, brutality, precision, heaviness, etc, are also musical ideas. Abstract, and so multiply realizable by different harmonic, melodic, rhythmic, articulation, and rhythmic choices, but no less musical. That’s why “metalizing” a song often involves injecting some dissonance, some darker tonalities, etc. It also involves leaning more into certain types of articulation, certain types of rhythms, dynamic choices, and the like. All of this is musical, even if it isn’t as specific as “uses 2 5 1’s.” . This might be a merely semantic disagreement, but I think it’s more than that. I think you’ve shown that metal is an especially flexible musical style, not that it isn’t a musical style.
Great points. The point about "Metalizing" gets to the heart of the matter, Metal is about more than just "Production Aesthetic". Just because the rules have become relatively loose doesn't meant that there are SOME musical stylistic features that were conceived exclusively within the Metal paradigm. "Conception" is the key word here. When other styles are played with a Metal "aesthetic & production" - it's not enough to convince people that it's actually an authentic Metal song. The Metal "style" is broad because Heavy/Doom/Thrash/Death/Black all have different features but they were all conceived via the world of Metal - which is distinct from Punk/Core in terms of being more... articulate in terms of riffing.
I love this video and the last one! I agree with a LOT of your ideas and conclusions BUT have one KEY objection. The main objection is that you are defining the genre by the "end point" as opposed to the CONCEPTION point. Yes - Metal has evolved so much and incorporated so much external stylistic influence and variety that it can obscure the "unifying" definition - but that doesn't mean there isn't one. The definition of Metal is - "Music that could ONLY have been conceived within the Metal paradigm". Now, yes you can take music that was conceived outside of the Metal paradigm and play with with a "Metal Aesthetic/Production" - but does that REALLY make it "Metal"? To be Metal - the music must contain some stylistic components that were conceived within the "Metal Paradigm". Metal is music that was born out of aesthetic advancements - but those aesthetics are simply tones that inspired actual stylistic developments. Holding a guitar that plays a super overdriven, heavy tone - you're going to naturally gravitate to certain musical features. Each sub-genre of Metal has a riffing style - tropes. There are "cliche" riffs that define each style. We sometimes forget the "generic" riffs because the most remarkable and unique ones are the ones we remember - but the fact the word "generic" is so close to "genre" is no coincidence, they both have the same root. You don't define Metal by the music that is technically still within it's orbit but nowhere near the centre of gravity - you find "Planet Metal" by looking for the generic stylistic tropes that have almost become cliche. You define it by the stylistic traits that were developed and honed within the genre and don't exist elsewhere. You don't define it by the EXCEPTIONS - but by its CONCEPTION! 😁
TREY!!! I got you. The music theory that makes metal music is a mix of blues and harsher classical music. (I don’t know the exact “harsh” sub-genres of classical) The music theory of metal music takes from the blues scale, throws in various minor key theories, and top it off with a lot of discordant notes. Jazz was created from blues, mixing discordant notes with MAJOR keys. Metal was created from blues, mixing discordant notes with MINOR keys. (So if Jazz is a genre, so is Metal) Metal music also usually uses extremes in its BPMs, fast or slow, creating dramatic differences. Beyond that, yeah it is all aesthetics and flavors 🤘
I absolutely agree with you! I have it for myself that metal is a flavor that you can add to ... everything. I think what exemplifies your point is when people use the expression "that's metal af!" in non-musical scenarios. A friend of mine saw me landing a sick skateboard trick and raised the devil's horn and said "metal pra kct!" (metal af in PT) ... my friend is not a musician and doesn't listen to anything more aggressive than Blink182. I can't really define what metal is exactly because it's broader and deeper than just one sound. Aesthetic, flavor, attitude, mindset ... but definitely not JUST music.
I wouldn't define "Music" as notes and rhythms. Rather, music is just sound art. And aesthetics is a part of that... I'd say it's mostly about how it makes you feel, rather than what notes are played. So... if sound aesthetics is music, and metal is a type of sound aesthetics, it logically follows that... By the way, even if we do consider music to be the notes and rythms played, if we strip down all the production, and made it midi for example, a lot of music can still be recognised as metal. Why?
I mean, you just provided examples of how metal has distinct musical elements. As you said, metal plays a lot of triads, in fact one of the founding principles of metal if you will is to put the tritone at its forefront. Similarly the focus on distortion, not as a production technique but as a musical choice like with the above mentioned heavy usage of tritones in order to achieve this distortion effect. Than write music that utilizes said distortion and creates something that isn't just scraping your ear drums, though some metal sub-genres do just that. The distinction between what you consider 'musical elements' and what you consider 'sound design' or 'aesthetic' is very unclear as you're using them inconsistently. Lastly about your comment on artists and sub-genres, I get what you're saying but I don't necessarily agree. No, artists shouldn't just stick to some template when writing music, I agree. However the different metal sub-genres aren't just templates, there is a lot more going on there. For example, lets look at one of the most iconic and well known metal bands out there: Iron Maiden. Their style is called 'heavy metal', as in NWOBHM, which is a very distinct and recognizable style played by many bands of the era. However almost every Iron Maiden album is different, they incorporate many different musical elements in their albums to the point where many people consider them the fathers of progressive metal of all things thanks to albums like Seventh Son of a Seventh Son. Even though said album and Iron Maiden in general sounds nothing like what we normally associate with progressive metal: Dream Theater, Symphony X, Opeth, etc. These progressive elements obviously exist in that album, and in other Iron Maiden songs, but they aren't prolific enough to become a progressive band. That is to say Iron Maiden, to this day are still playing heavy metal music, while also incorporating many different musical elements borrowed from many different sources(musical and otherwise btw, for example poetry like Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner). Still whenever you listen to any Iron Maiden album you instantly recognize it as an Iron Maiden album and as a heavy metal album. Compare that to another incredibly iconic and well known metal band: Metallica. They are considered the fathers of thrash metal and of course the largest of the American big-4 thrash bands alongside Megadeth, Slayer and Anthrax. However Metallica, unlike Iron Maiden, completely strayed away from their thrash roots starting from (arguably) the Black Album and (definitively) Load and Reload to the point where those albums sounded nothing like Metallica. Than there was St. Anger which well, too much has already been said about that atrocity, and Lulu that deserves no further elaboration('I am the table' is all you need to know about that album). These days it's really hard to say what metal sub-genre Metallica is playing, nor even know what to expect from a new Metallica album as they shift further and further towards Southern Metal, Arena Rock, etc, or try(and generally fail) to return to their trash roots. That is to say that unlike Iron Maiden's discography, Metallica's isn't tonally consistent. As a person who literally grew up on classic Metallica and having never listened to anything past St. Anger(gave up on them at that point), today when I'm much more of a metal head than I was back than and listen to Hardwired to Self Destruct, Death Magnetic or whatever I don't even register them as Metallica albums as they sound nothing like Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets or ...And Justice for All. James Hetfield's vocals are still distinct of course, but the rest of the music? That is in stark contrast with Senjutsu for example which is still distinctly Iron Maiden despite all the different changes that band went through over the years. All that is to say that while artists shouldn't limit themselves to a specific template, not thinking at all about sub-genres of actively shying away from what they became known for is a very risky endeavor. Metallica may still be the biggest name in metal these days yet most serious metal heads gave up on them a long time ago. They are still commercially successful of course but I'd argue creatively bankrupt. They have nothing more to say nor nothing new to contribute, they're just phoning it in for the money at this point. Than there's the case of Opeth who decided all of a sudden to completely abandon the 'death' in their progressive death metal sub-genre for 4 albums and many of their fans hated this new change and stopped listening to them. Nobody minded when Opeth added clean vocals to their songs, in fact it's one of the things that made Opeth so great. However ditching the growls altogether, as well as the other musical elements of death metal, was tone deaf and they suffered for it. Think about it from 2 different avenues. The first is that sub-genres puts limitations on you, and limitations actually breed creativity as they force you to find new ways to use the same old tools to create new things. The second is that every band has a fan base, a fan base that has come to know and love the band because of the music they're playing. Drifting too far away from the style of music they've become known for risks alienating a large portion of their fans, as the above examples and many, many, others have suffered first hand. Limiting yourself to a sub-genre doesn't at all mean you don't add new things nor innovate with the pre-existing tools. It just means remaining within a certain framework if for nothing else to keep you grounded.
absolutely love when someone does a response video to their own comments and goes searching for the low hanging easy wins (voiced in a dumb way to really ram home the point) instead of actually trying to engage with the top voted comments that provide a comprehensive argument.
The problem is, if you take out the distorted guitars from a lot of early metal like Black Sabbath some songs do NOT sound like rock n roll. So if it is not rock n roll and it's not metal then what is it? There is no other genre of music that came before that uses that early E-form bar chord in the exact way metal does. Blues would be the closest but it is def not the same. Same if you take the distortion out of like Metallica's Master or Lightning, what type of music would it then be if metal was just the sound design. Metal without the sound design aspect should then fall into a real music category. What other genre of music would "thrash" fall into without the distorted guitar? It's still to fast and the usage of rhythms is like no other.
I think trying to debate what's being played and what it's being played on is very difficult. Every style of music is an extension of something else that came before it. Metal is an extension of rock, rock is an extension of blues, so on and so forth. Metal, or regular old heavy metal, is just rock music turned up to 11, and every style of metal is just the previous style turned up to 11, maybe they add a different influence to differentiate it more. I think the techniques used in metal music are important to the sound and arrangement of metal, like chugs, double kicks, pinch harmonics, harsh vocals, blast beats, breakdowns, syncopation, irregular song structures, etc. While a lot of it is technique, it influences the artist to write in a particular way, as shown by the piano breakdown. A single note rhythmic pattern makes no sense on a piano by itself, but makes perfect sense with just the addition of the drums. The aesthetic influences the choices of the artist. Without these techniques, metal would just be rock. I'm not sure how productive it is to get philosophical about music though. Music is music, whatever style you want to pick out, it's just notes on a scale played in a particular way with particular sounds. I think it's a good thing that metal is such a broad or vague concept because you can do whatever you want with it while maintaining the aesthetic or sound design that you enjoy. I have no clue how to categorize my music within metal because I pull from so many different things and that's okay. I don't care if metal is different from other music at a technical level or just an aesthetic, it's what I like and I'm going to keep listening to and creating "metal". 😅
Metal is music in the way that it is a valid expression of musicality and musicianship as a medium of art through song. As long as a song has some form of notes or rythem or phonic quality, it can be music. The point being argued by most of these commenters myself included is possibly a kind of trauma response from past invalidation in the form of traditional people saying metal is just noise with mo form or value as artistic expression. I hear it all the time with old people saying rap or metal does not qualify as valid musical song or art. This concept I am pointing out has nothing to do with the qualitative identity catagorization of a song or piece of musical art. This is the same concept that people who have no definable or acknowledged gender identity are still people and a completely valid as a human being. I understand your intentions but your lack of empathy to try and undestand why people may feel hurt is not an argument of catagorization, but one of devaluation by you using previously harmful and invalidating rhetoric in the title and video. An example of someone else making this argument more intentionally would be the rediculous people who said the jimmy kimmel live performance of Knocked Loose and Poppy was not music, just noise and not a worthy expression of noise to be valued to hold the title of a song or a piece of music along with the demand for Jimmy to make a formal apology for giving that platform to an invalid or illegitemate musical act. Please acknowledge that you are not trying to make the same argument as these people because at the moment it really looks like you are although I can tell you are not trying but others might not be able to tell. This community has been through a lot, Please remember that! Otherwise I completely agree with you and keep up the great work!
I think most metal proudly borrows nearly all of its musical influence from other genres. What differentiates modern metal is absolutely that its predominant focus is on production and sound design, even in a live setting. While that does apply to other genres, it's most often secondary to the musical content. Pop, R&B, jazz, rap, and folk traditions are often singable without other instrumentation. Soundtracks, classical, theater, commercial music, etc all share this. The rhythmic and melodic capabilities of a single human voice do most songs justice. You can get the primary experience of the song by humming or singing it. In metal, the primary experience lives in the production, whether live or recorded. In other genres, the vibe serves the song. In metal, the song serves the vibe. It's music to my ears, but its relationship with music (and our experience listening to it) is fundamentally different. I would argue that this effect occurs to various degrees across bands -- but it's usually reliant on external influence. This is why Sleep Token feels like a pop band, Kamelot sounds like theatrical production, and Opeth sounds like prog rock; whereas Meshuggah and Car Bomb sound like a rhythmic soundscape, Sunn O))) sounds like white noise, and Polyphia sounds like electronic music played on guitars. We could say they all belong to different subgenres of metal -- or we could just say they are what they sound like, with a metal style instrumentation / composition / production. Regardless of which is correct, the question forces us to break it down in a really interesting way.
It’s weird hearing actual musicians make these goofy arguments. Beato had one a while back, Henning had something like this recently too. This just seems like a very uninformed illogical statement from an actual musician. Sounds just like the rap isn’t music argument. Music is sound organized over time. Metal is music and it’s a style. What you were experiencing when you compared those 3 different bands is called creativity. Boundless creativity amongst the metal community.
in 2013 in my series "What's with True Metal?" I even dared to say that DJENT which I adore is not metal, because it is an aesthetic far removed from what metal is about. If we think of metal as a Bronze or Iron Age village full of ripped dudes with axes on horses and bikes, bards singing glorious tunes, wenches with mead inviting them for a little play and devils and bears waiting in the dark to attack the village - DJENT on the other hand is a bespectacled engineering student in an industrial plant, programming a large industrial hammer to smash stuff to pieces. Two different musical aesthetics
Hey Trey, lifetime proghead here. I totally get your point but I do have to accuse your thumbnail of being the worst kind of clickbait. Saying [category X] is "not music," you're just pushing buttons and guaranteeing that the fans of said category of music are going to come after you with pitchforks ;). But that's not your argument, of course. You're not saying that bands or songs in the timbral clothing of metal are "not music." That would be simply wrong, insufferably arrogant and the worst kind of cultural imperialism. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying that metal has no stylistic content beyond sound design, which is true. There are similar issues with prog, although prog cannot be reduced to sound design. Just about any style of music can have progressive examples of it. Bach was more progressive than Telemann (or Vivaldi). Mozart was more progressive than Meyerbeer (or hell, just about any other example from the capital-C Classical era). Stravinsky was more progressive than Rachmaninov. And we can do this because every basic building block of music in every style, melody, harmony, rhythm, song form, counterpoint, etc., develops around them a set of norms that are most often adhered to and sometimes deviated from. "Without deviation from the norm, progress is impossible." --Frank Zappa KhanЪ is a current fave who play Bulgarian folk metal (sung in Bulgarian) or as they have dubbed it, folkcore. Even though most of their tunes are in odd time signatures (ODD TIME SIGNATURES FOREVER!), I wouldn't call them prog metal because their intent is not to be progressive. All their song forms, modes, harmonies come straight out of Bulgarian folk music and additive meter is simply a part of that culture. As _metal_ they're pretty generic; djenty chugs, blast beats, a clean rock tenor vocalist (who belts it out and is awesome) dueling with a Cookie Monster harsh vocalist and (thankfully only) occasional moments of ho-hum lead guitar heroics. It's a conventional metal lineup but with both a gaida (Bulgarian melody bagpipes, very similar to Irish Uilleann pipes) and a saz / tamboura (kind of a Balkan mandolin). And it isn't like those stupid YT vids you'll see of OUD METAL ! and it's some guy playing a phrygian Middle Eastern lick on an oud while all the ultra-generic metal crap gets layered over it; they use their traditional instruments very tastefully and idiomatically in their music. Why they do Bulgarian traditional music (and they play a couple trad covers, including a killer version of the 7/8 Macedonian song Domachine) in a metal format is because the result is extremely powerful and expressive, gets their stage shows incredibly pumped; evocative of all that endlessly tragic south Slavic history.
Metal is a style. If you down tune on an acoustic guitar and start chugging palm mute and sweep pick people would easily identify it as metal. Like anything else is a set of technics mushed together to generate a style.
Metal is only called "Metal" because it's supposed to be harder than Rock. That is about it. Trey has good points. Lol Idk why people are arguing about it.
I know that I'm two weeks late on this, but I do think that metal does indeed have musical characteristics, although i can agree that aesthetic and sound design definitely go hand in hand with it. For example, I think more than anything, metal is about riffs. They can be fat chunky riffs like in death metal, they can be really thin atmospheric riffs like in black metal, or they can be more melodic like in power metal. They can even be more simple like in deathcore or they can be really technical like in prog metal. Any way you slice it, metal is centered around riffs. It has this in common with blues. However, unlike blues, metal is cranked up to the absolute extreme in volume and distortion. This is where the sound design and the musical aesthetic join with the actual sound and musical qualities of metal
Okay, I agree with everything you've said but what about these musical characteristics (I'm sure you can find some evidence of music considered to be metal without these musical characteristics, but anyways) 1. Use of dissonance - because in general metal sounds aggressive and/or emotional, there is use of dissonance either through a minor second or tritone interval. Or borrowing chords outside of the scale to make a dynamic turn in a chord progression or song structure. 2. Use of 5 chords. Root + 5th (+octave of root) is in almost every metal song (and a lot of other type of chords of course, but most prominently 5 chords) and I can't think of another genre using it that much besides maybe rock. 3. Tension and it's even more metal if there isn't any release and keeps you on the edge and unresolved. And I'm not only talking about harmony/melody, also about vocal performance and lyrical content. 4. The Neapolitan chord - or the flat 2 is used a lot to convey the darkness or agressiveness. Also Phrygian Dominant is a scale very much associated with metal. 5. Technical riffs and fast tempos (of course there's doom and stoner and so on, but still what other "classical" style of music can sound so good in these fast tempos? there are "" on classical, because drum'n'bass is another fast tempo genre, but not sure if that would also be considered music) 6. Heavy sounding instruments - yes, but not just sound design that much so as the low register, the pluckiness of strings, the heavy hits of drums, the grit in those low notes, and you could get the metal sound from an upright bass and the low register of a piano, organ, also tuba. Not saying only this, but they're not just a foundation for the music on top, but actually have a huge role in the musical landscape. 7. Chromaticism - sometimes ocasional, sometimes the whole songs is just chromatic riffs Some extra thoughts: List of all classical/baroque pieces I consider metal and I believe they contain most of the forementioned characteristics Beethoven's 5th, Moonlight sonata 3rd movement, Carl Orf - Carmina burana O fortuna, intro of Vivaldi's Summer, Flight of the bumblebee... so maybe it's dark baroque music with heavy instrumentation? In the end if I haven't convinced you, I'd say that metal is the best genre entirely because it cannot be pinned down as a genre. It can be anything and that's what so captivating about it! You'd expect to hear the same 12 bar progression in a blues song, the same 2-5-1 in a jazz standart, the same set of characteristics for another genre, but in metal every musical idea can be expanded, combined with another one and who knows what it'll be in the end. I don't know if you've noticed but a lot of metal musicians can easily switch to another genre with less struggle than another genre based musician to metal. That says something and it definitely proves how big metal actually is!
Did not respond to the most upvoted comment on that video - fail Back in the day, 'metal' was sort of a bastardized term. For example, when you come across a random mp3 file and it's tagged with 'metal' as a genre it was annoying - cause there's isn't such a genre. So, there are two definitions - a bastardized term and a general term that covers a variety of musical genres. A bastardized term refers to the sonic quality of music (easiest way to identify), and the general, broad term refers to a VARIETY of different musical styles, each one developed through complex evolution which ultimately finds itself rooted in very specific early heavy metal. I'm not proving your point here - your point was to conflate the bastardized term with the general cover term. Metal isn't sonic quality - it's a variety of musical styles.
Ok, let's flip it around. If there are no compositional features that unify metal, are there compositional techniques that are not commonly found outside of metal? That would be an interesting angle to me.
I've had a burning desire to create the kind of metal that might have existed if Cliff Burton and Dave Mustaine were still in Metallica. I'd love to take what they did in "Kill'em All" to AJFA and make what that music would have evolved into. Yet, I've failed to even understand how Cliff and Dave wrote songs.
If nothing else... metals defining musical identity comes from the flat 5. You can use flat 5 in other styles and it will sound like metal. Yes, it's only one defining point... but it is a musical identity none the less that proves metal is music.
metal is anything I do because any time I drum or sing or write a song or breathe people keep saying "bruh y r u playin' that as if is metal, not everithin's metal bruh!" and I'm just trying to tune or keep the tempo or emit any sound or write anything sensible lol long live heavy metal!
Metal: a form of hard rock, usually characterized by highly aggressive style of instrumentation, imagery and themes. Metal is just sub-sub-genre, with Hard Rock above it, and then general Rock above that. The main thing that characterizes Metal from Rock & Hard Rock is a distinct, deliberate choice to explore themes that are generally considered "evil," as opposed to Rock & Hard Rock, which generally sticks to songs about love, sex, relationships and heartbreak. I always use Nickelback and Alice In Chains as two great examples. Nickelback has some pretty aggressive riffing, but no one ever classifies them as a Metal band because the themes and imagery of their music is usually centered on broken relationships (Someday,) or partying (Burn It To The Ground.) Alice In Chains on the other hand always gets a "Metal Pass," because a lot of their music is about death & dying, drug abuse, or criticisms of Christianity. Musically, stylistically... AIC & NIckelback aren't worlds apart. They could easily be featured on the same playlists and play alongside each other at gigs and it wouldn't give anyone musical whiplash. The presence of "death & evilness" in place of "love & sex" is what separates Metal from Rock. It's Sabbath vs Zeppelin. Thrash vs Glam. So basically, Metal is just Hard Rock with lyrics and images of skulls and pentagrams and shit.
I think the problem is actually rooted in how we define music and in how the western music approach, theory and writing system have shaped our definition of music. Timbre is definitely a musical characteristic - and one that has been favoured in complexity over traditional harmonic complexity in recent years -, but it is also the one musical trait that we have failed to find a way of notating, although it is intrinsic to sound itself. Which, of course, is the primary element needed for making music. Your point is very clear regarding the lack of musical tropes consistency among metal pieces, and that is why there are so many subgenres of metal. Though 'metal' might not convey a sense of pure traditional musical vocabulary, 'death metal' does it. All death metal pieces share a certain vocabulary. So, in the end, it dependes on how you define music. Also, stating that metal isn't music is likely to ignite a masse of metalheads that might have been cast aside by musical elitist that have deemed metal to be 'unartistic' or 'a sterile form of music'. I have actually received those kinds of comments before and know I am not the only one, thus the comments war. Addressing an issue that has strong emotional hold within the audience with what might feel as a subversion of their reason-to-be tends to invalidate the possibility of rational debate.
I don't know, man. there's a video of some dude here on UA-cam playing raining blood on an acoustic guitar and it sounds exactly like a metal song being played on an acoustic guitar which, by your logic, it shouldn't.
Hmm I want to rewind a bit and I honestly want to know your thoughts about rock-- does it have musical characteristics? Is there not a musical characteristic that makes something sound "heavy"? I know the term "metal" was used to (negatively) describe the clashing, percussive sound of early versions of that genre (I know, just... I dunno what else to call it lol). So, wouldn't those be musical characteristics? I'm not trying to be combative, like you I just wanna learn and have an academic conversation.
I do not disagree with any of your arguments. I just disagree on the definition you give to the phrase "musical genre". I understand that the melodic/rhythmic aspect of a piece of metal music is not what classifies the piece of music as metal unlike many of the other genres you have mentioned like jazz, but it is the sound design aesthetic choices which makes metal music metal. But when classifying music into a genre, should we not take into account these aesthetic choices into account? Thus making metal a genre of music. I mean, as a metal head, if someone asks what genre of music you listen to, what are you going to answer?
I think this entire argument is purely just semantics. You have arbitrarily assigned aspects of mysic such as what notes are being played and scales and keys and just music theory in general as "musical style" and aspects such as tone and timbre and "aggressiveness" as "aesthetic" while i think that all of those aspects should be under the same category. At the end of the day, music is just sound, and these are all different qualities of sound, so i dont get why they should count differently towards what makes a musical style.
There's nothing arbitrary about it. One is what you're playing, the other is how you're playing it. You can't have one without the other, but they're not the same thing. Of course it's somewhat semantical, but the semantics aren't the point - I'm saying this with a purpose, which I outlined in the first video (and in this one as well) - there's no reason to be restricted by a metal definition, because it doesn't define the what.
Adding to the evidenece/point, most sub-genres come from external combinations: modernist, baroque, Swedish folk, punk, hardcore (80's, & 90's), ambient, prog rock, industrial, etc. which do tend to have melodic and harmonic forms that are distinct + identifiable. Another thing is metalcore and how 'blurred' the lines can be between metal and new stylings, hardcore or not.
One year later (in fly time), and here's what I've got. When you use the word "genre" you're absolutely correct. But not "style". Metal is the "style" you're adding when you crank something/anything to eleven. Also, as bland as it is, tofu is an entre/genre. Metal is more like habanero sauce, or if we want to use darker, bloodier imagery. Metal is au jus.
The fact of the matter is everything dude said is true. Back in the 90s I was trying to uncover what punk really was. Everyone would argue back and forth on what it was but when you boiled it down it really was about "attitude “. Metal I really not that different
Metal is classical music with electric guitars and distortion. Even the Cookie Monster vocals came from Cats Duet. Blues with distortion is Southern rock or modern blues, jazz with distortion is math rock or ska rock depending on the type of jazz, country with distortion is rockabilly or modern country or Southern rock depending on the style of country and rap with distortion is numetal. Drop D isn't heavy because that would mean Dolly Parton performs heavy music. Yes, her guitar work is in drop D.
Loved both videos and even as a metaller of nearly 40 years I still learned a lot. But the titles are kind of misleading. You proved metal doesn't have a clear defining characteristic, but not that it isn't music. But this is what I love about metal. No matter what mood I'm in, whatever I feel like listening to, ranging from tear your face off aggressive, to something more deep and soulful, to let's party and get wasted, to doomy and gloomy, to silly songs about pirates, metal has me covered. Also worth it for the butthurt comments that missed the point, so for that I salute you! You got another subscriber. Cheers!
I think that the very wide variety of music that you are listing as metal makes it impossible to see what the root of the metal tree is. If you look back when there was Rock, Heavy Rock, and Country on the cutting edge of popular music. I would say the birth of what is today's metal was when Rock, which is powerful blues smashed into the speed of neo-classical. So all the Eddy guys in the early 80's heard Malmsteen, at that point metal was born. The unifying musical thing is the technical ability but it is often played over some variation of a basic chord progression theory, like Jazz. The Rock before metal had much busier more melodic rhythm guitar parts. Even bands that were always looked at as 3 chord bands like AC/DC in the early 80's started having much more activity in Malcom's part. Rock was very "poppy" using very major sounding tonalities. When metal happened the sound was darker, Randy and Malmsteen brought the classical diatonic mentality using minor modes, harmonic minor and it's modes. From that grew the high speed like Racer X, as that music grew and changed, for example the new vocalist have become much more of an additional instrument to the overall sound of the music that they are the traditional singer. With all the growth and change, if you tear it apart you will still, generally, find a highly technical minor tone lead, over a blunt course chord progression and an aggressive drum and bass part. There are a million 6 2 5 1 progressions in Jazz that sound different because of inversions and extended notes. I think that metal has grown so much in the 45-50 years since it rose from punk, rock, and fusion, it I hard for me to hear the difference between one metal style and another. I still just think of if as all metal, remember once Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, and Jethro Tull were all called acid rock and they are not at all alike. The definition of metal is in its basic structure and how that grew and was different from what was going on then, 1975-1985 Punk and Thrash were still really just faster blues rock. Randy brought what Richie Blackmore was doing to the masses, then Malmsteen did what no body had ever seen before. Metal was the bastard child of that, and you can still find it in all the many types of metal there are today and it is different than country, rock, blues, jazz, or any other style. Even the classical period material that metal took from is nothing in comparison because the underside of metal is bare not using Neapolitan chords, just the twisted modes of the harmonic minor scales.
I agree. Metal is pretty much an aesthetic but it just feels weird when I say "I like metal aesthetic/style" rather than "I like metal music" Just doesn't feel right when its said that way
I can take my guitar and start writing my music with any given chord progression and any given melody - and will end up with a metal song. Could be based on jazz, blues, opera, baroque or pop. So yes - I agree with it.
Counterpoint: You made the claim that the instrumentation of metal ("heavy guitar, heavy bass, drums, vocals") doesn't dictate the genre or style. But I would argue that many genres or styles are dictated in no small part by their instrumentation, even across time. Using Western music as an analogy to split music more evenly than "genres," in 18th century Europe, we could divide music distinctly two (or three) ways. There was "National music," extravagant performances to celebrate the royalty and/or nation (and was often state-funded), performed by people raised in its tradition, what we now know as "classical music." The instrumentation is broadly similar for these pieces across many European nations - an orchestra, or a subset of orchestral instruments. Many of these instruments were inaccessible to the commoner, and even if a commoner could attain one, they wouldn't be writing or performing "classical music" because they hadn't been raised with the rules of that tradition, and education on the subject was scarce outside of direct tutorship. But there was also "Street Music" and "Court Music," aka "Folk music," music for people with less financially privileged backgrounds. It was usually smaller and simpler in instrumentation, or very commonly soloists would perform on instruments, and they'd have more access to instruments like the "viol" family of strings, the street organ, the hurdy gurdy, the guitar, or the bagpipes. Performance with these instruments were far more accessible to the performer, not requiring an entire platoon of musicians with heavy pockets, free time, and dedication to rehearse for dozens of hours every week. In the early U.S., we no longer had the culture of classical music, and access to those instruments was more difficult, so most of early America's music that we know today is what we call "American folk." The "genre" or style of playing is derived from the culture and background of the people playing the instrument, sure. But the instrumentation is a very culturally informative part of who those players are, and it often mirrors the culture of the people with access to that instrument and desire to play it. Metal is made with accessible instruments, and in most places not so well-received in "high culture" as to get access to national funding. So, therefore, metal is music in the undying tradition of court/street/folk music.
I would argue that Metal could be considered Modern Baroque or Romantic classical music styles. Due to the heavy usage of dissonance, counterpoint melody, elaborate composition, techniques that can mimic the sound of a harpsichord, heavy emotion and drama, epic themes and dynamic contrast.
Apparently it only exists for shock value. That's why Ozzy (age 75) does it, to piss off his parents (Lilian (née Unitt; 1916-2001) and John Thomas "Jack" Osbourne (1915-1977))
I think what the comment around 11:00 means is that: what if sound design is actually enough to define a genre, and that harmony rules are not so relevant? Maybe jazz is defined by II V I progressions, but wht if that is actually the exception rather than the norm? I'm curious what Farya Faraji would have to say. What I get from him is that arrangement and orchestration sometimes is a lot more defining of an era or location than melody and chords.
Also: double kick drums. Some metal bands don't have them, but even then, metal has undeniably an emphasis on the kick drum. And yes some rock and jazz artists also used them intensively, but I would say there's an entire range of techniques and languages that have been developped spacifically by metal drummers. That riff you played on the piano, it falls flat precisely because the sound deign of the kick drum (including EQ'ing to emphasise the high end 'click') is *necessary* for it to work, in other words, the sound design progressively creates it's own musical characteristics. And, maybe my ignorance of EDM styles is going to bite me in the butt here, but it seems to me those rhythmic patterns are kind of unique to metal (adding hertas and triplet bursts...), precisely beause they can only be played by double kick drums. And yes electronic music can play crazy patterns too, but because they don't have the physical limitations of the drummer's body, they can do different stuff and will tend to push the envelope is different directions (insane speeds at full velocity...).
Maybe so, but it doesn’t really affect the point I’m making, which is that across all of metal there aren’t any unifying musical things. Just because that’s also true of other genres doesn’t make it not true, only that the things I’m saying also apply to them.
Fair enough, and to be clear, I don't disagree with the overall point you make. I think some of the comments you quote here give interesting insights about metal being about intensity or anti-establishment stance (though this latter point can be debated since metal does have some mainstream outreach). As a listener I was drawn to metal because of the dramatic intensity I was lacking in other genres. And as a composer, I find it indeed interesting to put a metal varnish on other styles of writing. But I still think, even if it's not universal across all sub-genres, metal has developped some elements that are unique to it. Styles of riffs, drum patterns, harsh vocals...Let me illustrate the point with Polyphia's latest work. If metal is just sound design, then clearly a song like Playing God is not metal. No guitar distortion, drums are mostly electronic samples (yes, metal drums are heavily processed, but not completely replaced by electronically generated samples)...and I would agree: there's no anger or sadness or melancholy, no dramatic intensity. However, there are clearly elements inherited from metal in the writing style, obviously due to their earlier work. One could say they put a "chill party music" varnish on top of metal...but...you can't put varnish on varnish, can you? Maybe it's just a matter of semantics, and metal is more a family of musical styles rather than one, and then each of them has its own charcateristics: doom: low tempos, death: fast, dissonant, complex, power: tenor voices, fast, more reliance on major chords... Metal Music Theory's channel also has good illustrations of which elements make up certain metal compositions, and yes, they're not exclusively metal, but their use can definitely be a basis for defining sub-genres.
I really enjoyed your video. It's good to have this sort of discussions going on ; and if it's combining music, pizza and tofu it's even better! 😆 I think you are on point. For almost every non-metal song there is a metal cover of it out there... and that would explain it! But maybe the same concept could be applied to other "genres" of music like electronic music, indie music, chill out music, etc. So might just the definition of music genre be outdated?
I feel there is a switch from metal being a genre to metal being a sound sometime in the 90s. Most 80s bands still have a common ground, and the early 90s bands are also mostly adhering to this. A good example is Tang Dynasty from China. Unlike newer eastern metal bands, that often are much more folk oriented, this band (started in 89) is not very disting from music that could be made by Judas Priest, Savatage and so on
I can’t say if there is anything musical that makes metal, metal. It’s mostly just attitude and style. Almost all metal music is written around blues. This is a rough one.
I listen to a wide range of music styles, but metal is definitely the only style that induces head-bob-stank-face. I think you’re on to something with the intangible feeling idea. So maybe we define metal as “a group of stylistic choices that induces stank face”
Ehh... 578??? 0s and 1s??? Djent grooves?? Breakdowns?? Metal is an umbrella term for all the heavy styles and didn't exist before distorted electric guitar, which proves your point. BUT, you conveniently overlooked that metal subgenres absolutely have different musical characteristics. Everyone knows songwriting differs in metalcore vs progressive death vs pirate metal vs postrock vs black.
So, for starters, I agree with you. "Metal" originated as a derogatory insult for bands people thought of as just making noise and not music, then the bands simply embraced the insult, reclaimed it, and it became a defiant badge of pride. Even in the term's origin, it's not a "musical" label. That said, I do think a lot of the confusion and disagreement here comes from what you mean when you say "musical characteristics". In both videos, you examine some traits and trends in metal music that might be nearly ubiquitous across most all metal, but aren't "musical characteristics" or "musical concepts". To the untrained or unschooled in music, one would think basically anything involved in the writing and/or performing of music would be a "musical characteristic". So I guess that'd be my question for a comment reply or perhaps another video, that hopefully pushes the conversation forward with clarity: what do you mean by "musical characteristics" when you say that metal isn't defined by any?
"A music genre is a conventional category that identifies some pieces of music as belonging to a shared tradition or set of conventions." - Wikipedia I think the problem is that we maybe don't have a strict definition of what a Music Genre is, so I just believe on Wikipedia's definition, but your argument is based on a different definition, so there is no way to argue if whether metal is or it isn't a musical genre or style since we don't have a concrete true definition of it. And even... Are Music Genre and Music Style the same thing?
The original video was VERY clickbaity. The title states that metal is not music (Outrageous! Ludicrous! Preposterous!), whereas the actual message is that metal is not a unified musical style (quite true). These are two very different things. I know it, you know it and anybody with more than two brain cells knows it. It's fine, you need views and clickbait titles helps. I, for instance, had lost touch with the channel in the last few month and now I am back watching and commenting. Mission accomplished, but don't try to deny that you "tricked" me (and I assume others) into watching your video 🤣
I mean, the guy makes content as a revenue stream. Of course the title is going to be crafted in a way that will entice or guarantee that as many people as possible click on and watch the video. Kind of the point.
@ the title said metal is not music. In the video he said that it is not a musical style. Are you telling me that there is no difference between these two concepts?
@ I disagree with the title because it is clearly false, whereas I agree with the video because metal is a cauldron in which a bunch of different styles are thrown together. Still music though
I think i see what you mean, if we take classical music and speed it the fuck up, make a drunk guy scream and shred over it, we get children of bodom. If we then take a jazz song, and make a less drunk guy play the sax, while you have two other dudes shredding and double bass the fuck out of it you get rivers of nihil.
Generally, I think that genres and labels are stupid. But since we're getting into semantics... You mentioned extended harmony in jazz. You're right, jazz easily gets clichéd for playing extended chords with alterations. But without the other unifying characteristics, such as improvisation, syncopated rhythms, blues, and whatnot, it's hard to call it jazz. You see extended harmony in classical music and neo-soul/R&B. I think jazz is more about the rhythm, and there are iconic motifs that jazz has claimed. These days, I think metal is also way more about rhythm, depending on the "style." Obviously, most metal won't be using crazy chords (unless you're Dave Davidson), because playing anything beyond power chords on distorted guitars gets crunchy. I'm sure you can think of iconic rhythms/motifs, even extremely generic ones that are a signature of metal, or even "metalcore." Or, you can think of mundane ways that musicians of this caliber tend to craft their riffs and songs. I mean, that's one way to make music interesting, right? Take generic stuff and turn it into something else. Genres are always evolving, and nearly every style of music is significantly different today than back then.
11:04 - Lmao the Arnie accent was spot on haha. It caught me off guard. Btw. I totally agree with your first (and this) video. Each metal 'subgenre' is pretty much a different genre/style mixed with the metal 'sound'. Old school Heavy Metal is just Blues + Metal sound, Power Metal is Heavy metal but faster and with dragons... (12757834 subgenres later)... Thall is just Atmospheric Electronic Music but made with metal instruments. As a metal musician myself, who never liked to put myself in those 'boxes' I always struggled to understand why people were so gatekeeping about them. I mean I literally take inspirations from Folk, Ambience, Cinematic, Electronic, Pop music and various 'subgenres' of Metal. Is the music I make metal anymore? Is this a new subgenre? Is this something else entirely? I don't care. What I care about is to bring my vision to life, but using the metal instrumentation and soundscapes which is much more 'raw' and 'chaotic' than if I was doing it the regular way. My most popular cover (which has Metal in the title) often gets comments like 'Erm acchually, It's soft rock not metal 🤓☝'. Who cares? It has soft parts, but it also has blast beats and screams for a while. My 'Encyclopedia Metallum' page listed me as 'Folk Metal' for a while. And A LOT of people would mention me saying that I'm 'Folk Metal' just because it was written like that there. I even had a metal snob friend (no longer a friend) who would disagree with ME about what music I play. She would take Metal Encyclopedia as the definitive source of knowledge, even though it was simply wrong. She would argue with me about why it was correct and I was wrong. Bitch this is my music, what the fuck do you mean? lol. I just make music that I enjoy making, I don't care what the hell it is.
I've had a similar thought about grunge and post grunge where it feels more like a lyrical style (to me) that talks about the true "trash" in the world
Extreme Metal is a genre though, or at least the subgenres. Black Metal: Blastbeats, dark melodies, minor, pentagonic, chromatic, or harmonic minor, high frequencies (yes also production but it is so deeply connected to for example how barchords ring out...), mid to high screams, tremmelo........ Death metal: downtuned, blastbeats, mostly falsechord screams, a lot of powerchords.........
You're only making my point further - each of those subgenres have all that in common between the bands within it, but NOT with metal as whole. You find almost none of those things in power metal, for example, so what does the "metal" part of the name actually mean? Nothing musical. Which isn't a bad thing, just an observation.
Yes but I just wanted to say that EXTREME metal, or more specific SUBGENRES can be seen as a music genre since the music in them have a lot in common. This comment was about extreme metal not all of heavy metal. Overall metal could perhaps be considered as a collection of music genres who share loose musical commong ground but are tied together by an ideologie and a lifestyle.
The problem with music “genres” is exactly the same as all other industrialized arts. It’s only a label created by media and disc labels to sell disk and differentiate them from competing labels and artists. In film (my industry) we have the blockbuster genres; thriller, comedy, drama (which is funny because all films with actors are drama), action, etc. But they are not really genres in dramatic arts there are only three genres Tragedy, Comedy and Piece, that’s it, every piece of dramatic material written since the Greeks can fit into those three. Same with music. If you’re a real musician you can write any genre easily because it’s just music and it obeys the same set of rules. Then put a label on it to sell it on the marketplace.
Same comment I put on the last one: I reject the premise without listening to the argument. Whatever argument you present is going to come down to creating categories based on aesthetics which have nothing to do with actual musicality, which is a category that cannot be a priori defined. You might as well be claiming "water isn't food". If people say it's music, it's music. There's no other discussion to be had. Good job with the bait, though. You got me to reply. New part: This is also a good time to let everyone know you can't "optimize" an opinion into a fact, either. There's no amount of argumentation you can make that magically converts your opinion about a categorical property into an intrinsic fact. That's not how reality or logic works.
Definition of genre: "a category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, characterized by similarities in form, style, or subject matter." And a music genre according to Wikipedia: "A music genre is a conventional category that identifies some pieces of music as belonging to a shared tradition or set of conventions." Even if we agreed that "metal is an aesthetic choice sound design applied to other genres", it'd still fall under the category of music genre under these definitions. But also, a lot of subgenres like death or black metal are undeniably genres. So is death metal a genre, but metal itself not? What's the other genre that the metal aesthetic sound choice is applied to in order to create death metal if it's also not a genre?
@ I very intentionally used “musical style” to keep the discussion about the music, and not about the myriad other things that could be grouped in together. When people say “genre”, they’re usually referring to a much broader package of traits that could include everything from fashion to location, album art, age group etc. All of which are cool and important, but not music in themselves.
@@treyxaviermusic Replace every mention of genre with style. Are metal subgenres, like black metal or death metal, musical styles? And furthermore, how is a specific "aesthetic sound design choice" not a style?
You'd think the predominantly non-conformist types that make up the metal scene would be excited to hear that their favorite 'genre' isn't a genre at all but something that transcends the definitions of genre entirely. I can only guess that, as you said, it's a tribal thing and it's hard to gatekeep the scene without well defined fences.
Rock is basically a nix of two genres country and blues add distortions and play with the speed and you got many metal genres. Add another influence and vary speed another time and your got the metal subgenres, voila he's basically right.
Yeah, the metal has to be intense even some metal is softer then rock yet, but is still classified as metal, artist don't write one softer song and are still a metal band. Like I find it insane that people who are not that educated on music more, metal being defined by how heavy it is seems crazy to me it's so much more, like you say it's an aesthetic, it's lyrical theming very loose of course, Black Sabbath and Judas Priest very different sounding. But death metal and black are very different from those two, but these people who want too move artist they don't like to a different genre. I get into this with everyone because I listen to all genres I don't even just listen to metal either, therefore I am not metal regardless of the fact was my favorite genre since as far back as I could remember.
If you remove a bunch of musical or stylistic rules from music, it's not music anymore? I was always under the impression that, if you have some sort of purposely constructed rhythm and tonal content, you had music. Now if you want one unified musical element that defines metal , it would be power chords I think? But I do agree, the metal genre without the distorted guitars would never be a thing. The sound design is more important to certain genres than others.
thing is, just because you cannot define something, does not mean you don't understand what it is, or that it cannot be defined. I shall point to Plato's obviously flawed definition of a human, yet we all know what humans are (as did the greeks back then) and we obviously do exist, as we did back then. there is, to my knowledge, only one book that attemtps a musical analysis of metal from an academic perspective, and it's called "Schwermetallanalysen" (analyses of heavy metal(s)) by Prof. Dietmar Elflein, in which one of his theses is that metal is moreso a stream of thought that combines typically american rhythmic ideas (of blues, for example) with european musical structures and an emphasis on virtuosity and mastery of the instrument. For example, he points out that where in punk, the appearance of an "unpolished" song is deliberately crafted while making the song, in metal, the song is often meticulously crafted and played and the choice of heavy distortion and/or effects then adds this unpolished/raw feel in post. this would somewhat agree with your claim that there isn't something musically defining about metal (i.e. something not present in other genres)
I completely agree with this 'metal is tofu' argument. But could you show me an example of 'un-metal-ed' music? What I mean is metal music played without metal-style production, so it no longer sounds like metal.
then what about EDM and techno? are those musical styles? not sure Ive listened that kind of music compositions in any other music genre... but for example, what genre uses double bass drum and screaming? I mean, rap is a style of music because of how the lyrics are accomodated, and reggaeton is a style because of the beat which is always the same. so maybe powermetal is a musical genre in the way that its a style of music with quite melodic simple chords, fast pased, doublebass drum and loud high pitch notes? how is that not a music genre?
also musical notes choices depends on the instrument sound. not all instruments play the same or have the same capabilities, for example, you wont play a full chord in a distorted guitar because it sounds awful, then you do powerchord. metal is powerchord based music, in jazz you can have powerchords but the music doesnt revolves around it.
so infact musical genre CAN include instrument choices, or can not, but depends on the genre.at the end we use the music genre tag to categorize different types of sounds, melodic or not.
Definition of Music
Music is an art form that combines either vocal or instrumental sounds, sometimes both, using form, harmony, and expression of emotion to convey an idea. Music represents many different forms that play key factors in cultures around the world.
Wait a minute...ocelots are totally metal!
True 😂
Not as metal as the face-eating leopard who wasn't going to eat _your_ face ;)
Oh, and sloths are metal, too: ua-cam.com/video/311tHNMwf88/v-deo.html
All ocelots are metal, but not all metal is ocelots. 😂
for sure! "ocel" is "steel" in Czech
@@talaniel From the 'pedia:
The name "ocelot" comes from the Nahuatl word ōcēlōtl (pronounced [oːˈseːloːt͡ɬ]), which generally refers to the jaguar, rather than the ocelot.[3][4][5] Another possible origin for the name is the Latin ocellatus ("having little eyes" or "marked with eye-like spots"), in reference to the cat's spotted coat.[6]
Other vernacular names for the ocelot include cunaguaro (Venezuela), gato onza (Argentina), gato tigre (Panama), heitigrikati (Suriname), jaguatirica, maracaja (Brazil), manigordo (Costa Rica, Panama and Venezuela), mathuntori, ocelote, onsa, pumillo, tiger cat (Belize), tigrecillo (Bolivia) and tigrillo (Colombia, Ecuador, Guatemala, and Peru).
I love how often people when disagreeing online, and often in person, just get annoyed, fire off some non sequiturs, insult, be generally contrarian and so on.
It's seems they are not really making an argument using the components of what defines an argument, premises, conclusions, deductions, inductions, chains of logic etc. Instead they are taking the tone, vibes etc of disagreement, more the aesthetic of an argument, layering it over something else and...... wait a minute.
Music- vocal or instrumental sounds (or both)combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form , harmony , and expression of emotion. This is the definition of music. Your title says metal is still not music. Metal fits that definition, therefore metal IS music.
Can we talk about the fact that sonic qualities are also musical characteristics? Just like a chord plays multiple frequencies, a distorted sound elevates a great variety of frequencies as well, which makes it sound very different. Playing a very conventional major chord with a heavily distorted tone will make it sound dissonant even though there is no intended dissonance whatsoever.
Guess we can skip the notes entirely then, seems like that's what metal wants. I guess your amp settings ARE just as important than what you're playing
I hope you don't mean that sarcastically, because that would be a strawman fallacy. Tone - which, just so we're clear, is a great deal more than just amp settings - is important enough to be considered a trait of a specific genre, even if it's not a primary trait of a style of music. Thus we are proving that sound qualities are indeed a musical characteristic.
Metalheads worship the aesthetic and ignore the composition, which is why metal gets continually dumber
@@treyxaviermusic How is this related to anything I said? You sure you're responding to the right comment?
I'm saying you're focusing on the wrong shit. Trying to put tone on the same level of importance as note choices, chord progressions, rhythms, and phrasing gives us a less usable definition, and clutters the musician's priorities. You can spend 10 years perfecting your tone and still not have a song worth playing through your rig.
Today I came across your video, "Metal is not music", for the first time, and then saw this follow-up where you respond to the comments. I have to say, I completely understood your point just from the title, and that’s incredible. It made me think of so many bands I’ve been into recently, like Sleep Token, Falling In Reverse, Electric Callboy, and others.
What’s amazing is how I’ve internalized this concept without even realizing it. You’re absolutely right. This is exactly what makes those bands stand out. They’re incredibly talented musicians who not only know how to write amazing piece of music but also know how to tap into the essence of metal that makes it so unique and magical. Their ability to seamlessly jump between genres is part of their brilliance, and it’s what keeps their music so engaging and fresh.
Well done, man! This is fantastic content.
Music is someone imposing their will on unsuspecting air molecules. Which is a pretty metal thing to do. Therefore all music is metal.
"If you listen to these specific country artists you can definitely hear genre specific things."
Yeah, can't do that at all for metal.
"I'm genuinely not trying to create drama."
_spends how much time reading comments in mocking voices_
You can say most of these things for most genres of music. That doesn't mean they aren't genres of music.
Timbre was only part of my argument. Jazz has extended harmony or at least 7th chords across multiple if not all subgenres as a unifying feature, which you have addressed to being traced back to the lineage of the genre in this video. So why can't Metal having harmony comprising largely of 5ths (power chords) with short melodic phrases (riffs) interwoven be considered a unifying characteristic coming from Blues and Rock?
The other part of my argument was in reference to the examples showing that Jazz composition is recognisable in other styles of music regardless of timbre with the the use of your Motor Synth. Which you argue that Metal composition isn't recognisable. How come we can recognise metal composition when being emulated in the original DOOM games, chip tune style like in video games from the late 80s and 90s, Bardcore and other styles of music? It can't just be sound design, the sounds need to arranged into riffs and drum beats that are based on existing metal compositions.
It's because it's NOT unifying - those things exist in some metal, but not others, and it's not exclusive to metal. There's no consistency. Fusion is a great example of the opposite of a metal subgenre - in metal, they'll take folk music and add metal instrumentation, and we get folk metal - Amorphis literally took Finnish folk songs and incorporated them verbatim. Fusion wasn't rock musicians looking to make their music jazzier, it was the opposite - it was jazz incorporating the rock aesthetic with distorted guitars and straight time etc.
The timbre/sound design/production aspect is definitive of metal because it's the ONLY constant. It's not 100% entirely exclusive because hardcore shares more or less the same sound aesthetic, but whatcha gonna do.
@@treyxaviermusic But it is for the most part and Folk Metal has power chord with riffs in between. By your own word it doesn't need to cover every single style like you said it'd be rare to find a jazz act that doesn't use 7ths or extended harmony. Doesn't mean it's not Jazz.
Literally the unifying characteristic I want considered can be found in every major subgenre.
Heavy Metal
Doom
Stoner
Speed
Thrash
Glam
Power
Progressive
Death
Grindcore
Black Metal
Sludge
Nu Metal
Metalcore
Deathcore
Djent
all use power chords and riffs.
in reference to me saying Power Chords and Riffs you said "those things exist in some metal, but not others, and it's not exclusive to metal." You just said in this video that the harmony in Jazz isn't exclusive to it but consider it a unifying feature?! Dude the mental gymnastics to pull off this argument are insane!
You aren't addressing the latter part of my first comment. Metal is more than its sound design as it's recognisable in different styles such as being emulated in DOOM, chip tune, bardcore and other styles. Those sounds have to be arranged into Riffs and Drum Beats that are based on existing metal compositions otherwise it may well indeed end up sounding like Hardcore etc.
You still haven't convinced me. I think the problem is that you've made up your own definition of what defines a musical genre. And since it doesn't fit your definition, you're always right. Since I have little time, I just go to Wiki, which has of course a page about genre. Of course there's not one definition, but they say this:
"In 1982, Franco Fabbri proposed a definition of the musical genre that is now considered to be normative:[ "musical genre is a set of musical events (real or possible) whose course is governed by a definite set of socially accepted rules", where a musical event can be defined as "any type of activity performed around any type of event involving sound""
By this definition, metal could well be defined as a genre.
Now, apart from that you mention a few things:
* Tonality: although it's (like Jazz or many other broader genres) hard to exactly define this for metal, most who've listened to metal for a while will recognize this. Often in the lower range, powerchords, minor or other dark keys etc, also the sound of the guitars (overdrive/distortion) is part of the tone! I think there's a "tonality", but it would be an interesting study to exactly define this.
* Chords: you mention Jazz uses distinct chords with lots of extensions. And then you mention Metal is the exact opposite. And that indeed is in my opinion one of the musical elements: metal uses often power chords, with not even a major/minor distinction. Ideally you want this played on a distorted guitar, but it's not necessary. You can even do it on a cello and it still sounds metal (Apocalyptica)
I still think metal is a genre, and actually in Fabbri's definition it fits really well. There are musical events, there's a set of socially accepted rules. It's an activity involving sound.
where did I say genre
@@treyxaviermusic I would have to listen both video's back, so in good faith I'll take your word for it.
Now you did use the word "musical style" (pretty much directly in the 1st video) and style/genre are used interchangeably. Genre though is often seen more broad than style.
Still I would argue that you judge by your own definition (akin to the strawman fallacy). This is just an opinion of some random UA-camr, and not a scientific exercise. But even then, you could have started out with some kind of definition backed by sources (although in your defense you did give some properties). Your channel, your choice, and probably you're looking for a debate. Which is a good thing!
I stand by my opinion that metal is a) music, b) a genre and c) a style. Narrowing it down to "tofu" with some flavour is imho not doing justice to metal (although I also see you're not taking the piss out of metal). First of all if I would follow your analogy, I would turned it around. The tofu can be any song, the flavour is making it "metal" (by using heavy guitars, drums etc.). That would actually prove my point metal is music/genre/style.
What I really don't see is the need to dismiss metal as "music" or a "style". People simplify things, and calling metal a style or genre is very helpful. We all know what it means in general, although our detailed descriptions will vary on points. Still there will be overlap, and those will be around how the guitars and drums sound, use of powerchords and more dark scales.
Just to be clear: I think this is a fun discussion!
I’m making a distinction between genre and musical style - genre being inclusive of the aesthetic, but musical style including only the parts of music that are separate from that. That gives us only the really quantifiable parts to work with.
@@treyxaviermusic fair point. I disagree, but from that point of view I can follow your reasoning.
@@treyxaviermusic Then every genre would be tofu tho? Cuz a hella lot of other genres where the aethstatic defines The music as much as musical style!
Personally, I still think you are eliding a bunch of truly musical features under the umbrella of “sound design” and “aesthetic.” They tend to be more abstract features than other genres, but they are no less musical, imo.
Timbre, which you mention, is one of those features. But other things like aggression, brutality, precision, heaviness, etc, are also musical ideas. Abstract, and so multiply realizable by different harmonic, melodic, rhythmic, articulation, and rhythmic choices, but no less musical.
That’s why “metalizing” a song often involves injecting some dissonance, some darker tonalities, etc. It also involves leaning more into certain types of articulation, certain types of rhythms, dynamic choices, and the like. All of this is musical, even if it isn’t as specific as “uses 2 5 1’s.”
.
This might be a merely semantic disagreement, but I think it’s more than that. I think you’ve shown that metal is an especially flexible musical style, not that it isn’t a musical style.
Great points. The point about "Metalizing" gets to the heart of the matter, Metal is about more than just "Production Aesthetic". Just because the rules have become relatively loose doesn't meant that there are SOME musical stylistic features that were conceived exclusively within the Metal paradigm.
"Conception" is the key word here. When other styles are played with a Metal "aesthetic & production" - it's not enough to convince people that it's actually an authentic Metal song.
The Metal "style" is broad because Heavy/Doom/Thrash/Death/Black all have different features but they were all conceived via the world of Metal - which is distinct from Punk/Core in terms of being more... articulate in terms of riffing.
It's one thing to not know what metal is, but this guy doesn't even know what music is.
I love this video and the last one! I agree with a LOT of your ideas and conclusions BUT have one KEY objection.
The main objection is that you are defining the genre by the "end point" as opposed to the CONCEPTION point.
Yes - Metal has evolved so much and incorporated so much external stylistic influence and variety that it can obscure the "unifying" definition - but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
The definition of Metal is - "Music that could ONLY have been conceived within the Metal paradigm".
Now, yes you can take music that was conceived outside of the Metal paradigm and play with with a "Metal Aesthetic/Production" - but does that REALLY make it "Metal"?
To be Metal - the music must contain some stylistic components that were conceived within the "Metal Paradigm".
Metal is music that was born out of aesthetic advancements - but those aesthetics are simply tones that inspired actual stylistic developments. Holding a guitar that plays a super overdriven, heavy tone - you're going to naturally gravitate to certain musical features.
Each sub-genre of Metal has a riffing style - tropes. There are "cliche" riffs that define each style. We sometimes forget the "generic" riffs because the most remarkable and unique ones are the ones we remember - but the fact the word "generic" is so close to "genre" is no coincidence, they both have the same root.
You don't define Metal by the music that is technically still within it's orbit but nowhere near the centre of gravity - you find "Planet Metal" by looking for the generic stylistic tropes that have almost become cliche.
You define it by the stylistic traits that were developed and honed within the genre and don't exist elsewhere.
You don't define it by the EXCEPTIONS - but by its CONCEPTION! 😁
TREY!!! I got you.
The music theory that makes metal music is a mix of blues and harsher classical music. (I don’t know the exact “harsh” sub-genres of classical) The music theory of metal music takes from the blues scale, throws in various minor key theories, and top it off with a lot of discordant notes.
Jazz was created from blues, mixing discordant notes with MAJOR keys.
Metal was created from blues, mixing discordant notes with MINOR keys.
(So if Jazz is a genre, so is Metal)
Metal music also usually uses extremes in its BPMs, fast or slow, creating dramatic differences.
Beyond that, yeah it is all aesthetics and flavors 🤘
Harsh classical? You can start with Kristof Penderecki.
I absolutely agree with you! I have it for myself that metal is a flavor that you can add to ... everything. I think what exemplifies your point is when people use the expression "that's metal af!" in non-musical scenarios. A friend of mine saw me landing a sick skateboard trick and raised the devil's horn and said "metal pra kct!" (metal af in PT) ... my friend is not a musician and doesn't listen to anything more aggressive than Blink182. I can't really define what metal is exactly because it's broader and deeper than just one sound. Aesthetic, flavor, attitude, mindset ... but definitely not JUST music.
I wouldn't define "Music" as notes and rhythms. Rather, music is just sound art. And aesthetics is a part of that... I'd say it's mostly about how it makes you feel, rather than what notes are played.
So... if sound aesthetics is music, and metal is a type of sound aesthetics, it logically follows that...
By the way, even if we do consider music to be the notes and rythms played, if we strip down all the production, and made it midi for example, a lot of music can still be recognised as metal. Why?
I mean, you just provided examples of how metal has distinct musical elements. As you said, metal plays a lot of triads, in fact one of the founding principles of metal if you will is to put the tritone at its forefront. Similarly the focus on distortion, not as a production technique but as a musical choice like with the above mentioned heavy usage of tritones in order to achieve this distortion effect. Than write music that utilizes said distortion and creates something that isn't just scraping your ear drums, though some metal sub-genres do just that. The distinction between what you consider 'musical elements' and what you consider 'sound design' or 'aesthetic' is very unclear as you're using them inconsistently. Lastly about your comment on artists and sub-genres, I get what you're saying but I don't necessarily agree. No, artists shouldn't just stick to some template when writing music, I agree. However the different metal sub-genres aren't just templates, there is a lot more going on there.
For example, lets look at one of the most iconic and well known metal bands out there: Iron Maiden. Their style is called 'heavy metal', as in NWOBHM, which is a very distinct and recognizable style played by many bands of the era. However almost every Iron Maiden album is different, they incorporate many different musical elements in their albums to the point where many people consider them the fathers of progressive metal of all things thanks to albums like Seventh Son of a Seventh Son. Even though said album and Iron Maiden in general sounds nothing like what we normally associate with progressive metal: Dream Theater, Symphony X, Opeth, etc. These progressive elements obviously exist in that album, and in other Iron Maiden songs, but they aren't prolific enough to become a progressive band. That is to say Iron Maiden, to this day are still playing heavy metal music, while also incorporating many different musical elements borrowed from many different sources(musical and otherwise btw, for example poetry like Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner). Still whenever you listen to any Iron Maiden album you instantly recognize it as an Iron Maiden album and as a heavy metal album.
Compare that to another incredibly iconic and well known metal band: Metallica. They are considered the fathers of thrash metal and of course the largest of the American big-4 thrash bands alongside Megadeth, Slayer and Anthrax. However Metallica, unlike Iron Maiden, completely strayed away from their thrash roots starting from (arguably) the Black Album and (definitively) Load and Reload to the point where those albums sounded nothing like Metallica. Than there was St. Anger which well, too much has already been said about that atrocity, and Lulu that deserves no further elaboration('I am the table' is all you need to know about that album). These days it's really hard to say what metal sub-genre Metallica is playing, nor even know what to expect from a new Metallica album as they shift further and further towards Southern Metal, Arena Rock, etc, or try(and generally fail) to return to their trash roots. That is to say that unlike Iron Maiden's discography, Metallica's isn't tonally consistent. As a person who literally grew up on classic Metallica and having never listened to anything past St. Anger(gave up on them at that point), today when I'm much more of a metal head than I was back than and listen to Hardwired to Self Destruct, Death Magnetic or whatever I don't even register them as Metallica albums as they sound nothing like Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets or ...And Justice for All. James Hetfield's vocals are still distinct of course, but the rest of the music? That is in stark contrast with Senjutsu for example which is still distinctly Iron Maiden despite all the different changes that band went through over the years.
All that is to say that while artists shouldn't limit themselves to a specific template, not thinking at all about sub-genres of actively shying away from what they became known for is a very risky endeavor. Metallica may still be the biggest name in metal these days yet most serious metal heads gave up on them a long time ago. They are still commercially successful of course but I'd argue creatively bankrupt. They have nothing more to say nor nothing new to contribute, they're just phoning it in for the money at this point. Than there's the case of Opeth who decided all of a sudden to completely abandon the 'death' in their progressive death metal sub-genre for 4 albums and many of their fans hated this new change and stopped listening to them. Nobody minded when Opeth added clean vocals to their songs, in fact it's one of the things that made Opeth so great. However ditching the growls altogether, as well as the other musical elements of death metal, was tone deaf and they suffered for it.
Think about it from 2 different avenues. The first is that sub-genres puts limitations on you, and limitations actually breed creativity as they force you to find new ways to use the same old tools to create new things. The second is that every band has a fan base, a fan base that has come to know and love the band because of the music they're playing. Drifting too far away from the style of music they've become known for risks alienating a large portion of their fans, as the above examples and many, many, others have suffered first hand. Limiting yourself to a sub-genre doesn't at all mean you don't add new things nor innovate with the pre-existing tools. It just means remaining within a certain framework if for nothing else to keep you grounded.
The Devil's Interval🤘🏻
What kind of music would you call the (self acclaimed big four) thrash metal titans Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, and Anthrax?
and wtf would he call sabbath
absolutely love when someone does a response video to their own comments and goes searching for the low hanging easy wins (voiced in a dumb way to really ram home the point) instead of actually trying to engage with the top voted comments that provide a comprehensive argument.
then you’re in the right place 💅
The problem is, if you take out the distorted guitars from a lot of early metal like Black Sabbath some songs do NOT sound like rock n roll. So if it is not rock n roll and it's not metal then what is it? There is no other genre of music that came before that uses that early E-form bar chord in the exact way metal does. Blues would be the closest but it is def not the same. Same if you take the distortion out of like Metallica's Master or Lightning, what type of music would it then be if metal was just the sound design. Metal without the sound design aspect should then fall into a real music category. What other genre of music would "thrash" fall into without the distorted guitar? It's still to fast and the usage of rhythms is like no other.
I think trying to debate what's being played and what it's being played on is very difficult. Every style of music is an extension of something else that came before it. Metal is an extension of rock, rock is an extension of blues, so on and so forth. Metal, or regular old heavy metal, is just rock music turned up to 11, and every style of metal is just the previous style turned up to 11, maybe they add a different influence to differentiate it more.
I think the techniques used in metal music are important to the sound and arrangement of metal, like chugs, double kicks, pinch harmonics, harsh vocals, blast beats, breakdowns, syncopation, irregular song structures, etc. While a lot of it is technique, it influences the artist to write in a particular way, as shown by the piano breakdown. A single note rhythmic pattern makes no sense on a piano by itself, but makes perfect sense with just the addition of the drums. The aesthetic influences the choices of the artist. Without these techniques, metal would just be rock. I'm not sure how productive it is to get philosophical about music though.
Music is music, whatever style you want to pick out, it's just notes on a scale played in a particular way with particular sounds. I think it's a good thing that metal is such a broad or vague concept because you can do whatever you want with it while maintaining the aesthetic or sound design that you enjoy. I have no clue how to categorize my music within metal because I pull from so many different things and that's okay. I don't care if metal is different from other music at a technical level or just an aesthetic, it's what I like and I'm going to keep listening to and creating "metal". 😅
Metal is music in the way that it is a valid expression of musicality and musicianship as a medium of art through song. As long as a song has some form of notes or rythem or phonic quality, it can be music. The point being argued by most of these commenters myself included is possibly a kind of trauma response from past invalidation in the form of traditional people saying metal is just noise with mo form or value as artistic expression. I hear it all the time with old people saying rap or metal does not qualify as valid musical song or art.
This concept I am pointing out has nothing to do with the qualitative identity catagorization of a song or piece of musical art. This is the same concept that people who have no definable or acknowledged gender identity are still people and a completely valid as a human being. I understand your intentions but your lack of empathy to try and undestand why people may feel hurt is not an argument of catagorization, but one of devaluation by you using previously harmful and invalidating rhetoric in the title and video. An example of someone else making this argument more intentionally would be the rediculous people who said the jimmy kimmel live performance of Knocked Loose and Poppy was not music, just noise and not a worthy expression of noise to be valued to hold the title of a song or a piece of music along with the demand for Jimmy to make a formal apology for giving that platform to an invalid or illegitemate musical act.
Please acknowledge that you are not trying to make the same argument as these people because at the moment it really looks like you are although I can tell you are not trying but others might not be able to tell.
This community has been through a lot, Please remember that! Otherwise I completely agree with you and keep up the great work!
I mean, the single note piano lick does go hard af
Music is just a collection of sounds organized in a way that is pleasing to the ear
I think most metal proudly borrows nearly all of its musical influence from other genres. What differentiates modern metal is absolutely that its predominant focus is on production and sound design, even in a live setting. While that does apply to other genres, it's most often secondary to the musical content. Pop, R&B, jazz, rap, and folk traditions are often singable without other instrumentation. Soundtracks, classical, theater, commercial music, etc all share this. The rhythmic and melodic capabilities of a single human voice do most songs justice. You can get the primary experience of the song by humming or singing it. In metal, the primary experience lives in the production, whether live or recorded. In other genres, the vibe serves the song. In metal, the song serves the vibe. It's music to my ears, but its relationship with music (and our experience listening to it) is fundamentally different. I would argue that this effect occurs to various degrees across bands -- but it's usually reliant on external influence. This is why Sleep Token feels like a pop band, Kamelot sounds like theatrical production, and Opeth sounds like prog rock; whereas Meshuggah and Car Bomb sound like a rhythmic soundscape, Sunn O))) sounds like white noise, and Polyphia sounds like electronic music played on guitars. We could say they all belong to different subgenres of metal -- or we could just say they are what they sound like, with a metal style instrumentation / composition / production. Regardless of which is correct, the question forces us to break it down in a really interesting way.
It’s weird hearing actual musicians make these goofy arguments. Beato had one a while back, Henning had something like this recently too. This just seems like a very uninformed illogical statement from an actual musician. Sounds just like the rap isn’t music argument. Music is sound organized over time. Metal is music and it’s a style. What you were experiencing when you compared those 3 different bands is called creativity. Boundless creativity amongst the metal community.
in 2013 in my series "What's with True Metal?" I even dared to say that DJENT which I adore is not metal, because it is an aesthetic far removed from what metal is about. If we think of metal as a Bronze or Iron Age village full of ripped dudes with axes on horses and bikes, bards singing glorious tunes, wenches with mead inviting them for a little play and devils and bears waiting in the dark to attack the village - DJENT on the other hand is a bespectacled engineering student in an industrial plant, programming a large industrial hammer to smash stuff to pieces.
Two different musical aesthetics
Hey Trey, lifetime proghead here. I totally get your point but I do have to accuse your thumbnail of being the worst kind of clickbait. Saying [category X] is "not music," you're just pushing buttons and guaranteeing that the fans of said category of music are going to come after you with pitchforks ;). But that's not your argument, of course. You're not saying that bands or songs in the timbral clothing of metal are "not music." That would be simply wrong, insufferably arrogant and the worst kind of cultural imperialism. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying that metal has no stylistic content beyond sound design, which is true.
There are similar issues with prog, although prog cannot be reduced to sound design. Just about any style of music can have progressive examples of it. Bach was more progressive than Telemann (or Vivaldi). Mozart was more progressive than Meyerbeer (or hell, just about any other example from the capital-C Classical era). Stravinsky was more progressive than Rachmaninov. And we can do this because every basic building block of music in every style, melody, harmony, rhythm, song form, counterpoint, etc., develops around them a set of norms that are most often adhered to and sometimes deviated from. "Without deviation from the norm, progress is impossible." --Frank Zappa
KhanЪ is a current fave who play Bulgarian folk metal (sung in Bulgarian) or as they have dubbed it, folkcore. Even though most of their tunes are in odd time signatures (ODD TIME SIGNATURES FOREVER!), I wouldn't call them prog metal because their intent is not to be progressive. All their song forms, modes, harmonies come straight out of Bulgarian folk music and additive meter is simply a part of that culture. As _metal_ they're pretty generic; djenty chugs, blast beats, a clean rock tenor vocalist (who belts it out and is awesome) dueling with a Cookie Monster harsh vocalist and (thankfully only) occasional moments of ho-hum lead guitar heroics.
It's a conventional metal lineup but with both a gaida (Bulgarian melody bagpipes, very similar to Irish Uilleann pipes) and a saz / tamboura (kind of a Balkan mandolin). And it isn't like those stupid YT vids you'll see of OUD METAL ! and it's some guy playing a phrygian Middle Eastern lick on an oud while all the ultra-generic metal crap gets layered over it; they use their traditional instruments very tastefully and idiomatically in their music. Why they do Bulgarian traditional music (and they play a couple trad covers, including a killer version of the 7/8 Macedonian song Domachine) in a metal format is because the result is extremely powerful and expressive, gets their stage shows incredibly pumped; evocative of all that endlessly tragic south Slavic history.
Maybe I’d add classical music to the coversation, what you played on the piano would make Beethoven or Bartok probably happy.
Metal is a style. If you down tune on an acoustic guitar and start chugging palm mute and sweep pick people would easily identify it as metal.
Like anything else is a set of technics mushed together to generate a style.
Metal is only called "Metal" because it's supposed to be harder than Rock. That is about it. Trey has good points. Lol Idk why people are arguing about it.
what is rock then? harder blues?
@@maaaaaap pretty much
On point.
Facts
I know that I'm two weeks late on this, but I do think that metal does indeed have musical characteristics, although i can agree that aesthetic and sound design definitely go hand in hand with it. For example, I think more than anything, metal is about riffs. They can be fat chunky riffs like in death metal, they can be really thin atmospheric riffs like in black metal, or they can be more melodic like in power metal. They can even be more simple like in deathcore or they can be really technical like in prog metal. Any way you slice it, metal is centered around riffs. It has this in common with blues. However, unlike blues, metal is cranked up to the absolute extreme in volume and distortion. This is where the sound design and the musical aesthetic join with the actual sound and musical qualities of metal
Okay, I agree with everything you've said but what about these musical characteristics (I'm sure you can find some evidence of music considered to be metal without these musical characteristics, but anyways)
1. Use of dissonance - because in general metal sounds aggressive and/or emotional, there is use of dissonance either through a minor second or tritone interval. Or borrowing chords outside of the scale to make a dynamic turn in a chord progression or song structure.
2. Use of 5 chords. Root + 5th (+octave of root) is in almost every metal song (and a lot of other type of chords of course, but most prominently 5 chords) and I can't think of another genre using it that much besides maybe rock.
3. Tension and it's even more metal if there isn't any release and keeps you on the edge and unresolved. And I'm not only talking about harmony/melody, also about vocal performance and lyrical content.
4. The Neapolitan chord - or the flat 2 is used a lot to convey the darkness or agressiveness. Also Phrygian Dominant is a scale very much associated with metal.
5. Technical riffs and fast tempos (of course there's doom and stoner and so on, but still what other "classical" style of music can sound so good in these fast tempos? there are "" on classical, because drum'n'bass is another fast tempo genre, but not sure if that would also be considered music)
6. Heavy sounding instruments - yes, but not just sound design that much so as the low register, the pluckiness of strings, the heavy hits of drums, the grit in those low notes, and you could get the metal sound from an upright bass and the low register of a piano, organ, also tuba. Not saying only this, but they're not just a foundation for the music on top, but actually have a huge role in the musical landscape.
7. Chromaticism - sometimes ocasional, sometimes the whole songs is just chromatic riffs
Some extra thoughts:
List of all classical/baroque pieces I consider metal and I believe they contain most of the forementioned characteristics
Beethoven's 5th, Moonlight sonata 3rd movement, Carl Orf - Carmina burana O fortuna, intro of Vivaldi's Summer, Flight of the bumblebee... so maybe it's dark baroque music with heavy instrumentation?
In the end if I haven't convinced you, I'd say that metal is the best genre entirely because it cannot be pinned down as a genre. It can be anything and that's what so captivating about it! You'd expect to hear the same 12 bar progression in a blues song, the same 2-5-1 in a jazz standart, the same set of characteristics for another genre, but in metal every musical idea can be expanded, combined with another one and who knows what it'll be in the end. I don't know if you've noticed but a lot of metal musicians can easily switch to another genre with less struggle than another genre based musician to metal. That says something and it definitely proves how big metal actually is!
Did not respond to the most upvoted comment on that video - fail
Back in the day, 'metal' was sort of a bastardized term. For example, when you come across a random mp3 file and it's tagged with 'metal' as a genre it was annoying - cause there's isn't such a genre. So, there are two definitions - a bastardized term and a general term that covers a variety of musical genres. A bastardized term refers to the sonic quality of music (easiest way to identify), and the general, broad term refers to a VARIETY of different musical styles, each one developed through complex evolution which ultimately finds itself rooted in very specific early heavy metal.
I'm not proving your point here - your point was to conflate the bastardized term with the general cover term. Metal isn't sonic quality - it's a variety of musical styles.
P.S. Not the most upvoted, but the one at the top - "I'd be inclined to disagree; Metal is like a phylogenetic grouping of related types of music..."
@@Ivan4n09 "Metal is like a phylogenetic grouping of related types of music" That's kind of the point of a genre, no?
@@troysmithfr Read the original comment on the other video
@@Ivan4n09 thanks for the vote of confidence. truly means something to know someone waded through my wall of text and found value in it
Ok, let's flip it around. If there are no compositional features that unify metal, are there compositional techniques that are not commonly found outside of metal? That would be an interesting angle to me.
I've had a burning desire to create the kind of metal that might have existed if Cliff Burton and Dave Mustaine were still in Metallica. I'd love to take what they did in "Kill'em All" to AJFA and make what that music would have evolved into. Yet, I've failed to even understand how Cliff and Dave wrote songs.
If nothing else... metals defining musical identity comes from the flat 5. You can use flat 5 in other styles and it will sound like metal. Yes, it's only one defining point... but it is a musical identity none the less that proves metal is music.
If every or even most metal songs had that, then it might be, but they don't.
Nobody is ready for this convo
metal is anything I do because any time I drum or sing or write a song or breathe people keep saying "bruh y r u playin' that as if is metal, not everithin's metal bruh!" and I'm just trying to tune or keep the tempo or emit any sound or write anything sensible lol long live heavy metal!
Metal: a form of hard rock, usually characterized by highly aggressive style of instrumentation, imagery and themes. Metal is just sub-sub-genre, with Hard Rock above it, and then general Rock above that. The main thing that characterizes Metal from Rock & Hard Rock is a distinct, deliberate choice to explore themes that are generally considered "evil," as opposed to Rock & Hard Rock, which generally sticks to songs about love, sex, relationships and heartbreak. I always use Nickelback and Alice In Chains as two great examples. Nickelback has some pretty aggressive riffing, but no one ever classifies them as a Metal band because the themes and imagery of their music is usually centered on broken relationships (Someday,) or partying (Burn It To The Ground.) Alice In Chains on the other hand always gets a "Metal Pass," because a lot of their music is about death & dying, drug abuse, or criticisms of Christianity. Musically, stylistically... AIC & NIckelback aren't worlds apart. They could easily be featured on the same playlists and play alongside each other at gigs and it wouldn't give anyone musical whiplash. The presence of "death & evilness" in place of "love & sex" is what separates Metal from Rock. It's Sabbath vs Zeppelin. Thrash vs Glam. So basically, Metal is just Hard Rock with lyrics and images of skulls and pentagrams and shit.
I love semantics
I think the problem is actually rooted in how we define music and in how the western music approach, theory and writing system have shaped our definition of music. Timbre is definitely a musical characteristic - and one that has been favoured in complexity over traditional harmonic complexity in recent years -, but it is also the one musical trait that we have failed to find a way of notating, although it is intrinsic to sound itself. Which, of course, is the primary element needed for making music. Your point is very clear regarding the lack of musical tropes consistency among metal pieces, and that is why there are so many subgenres of metal. Though 'metal' might not convey a sense of pure traditional musical vocabulary, 'death metal' does it. All death metal pieces share a certain vocabulary. So, in the end, it dependes on how you define music.
Also, stating that metal isn't music is likely to ignite a masse of metalheads that might have been cast aside by musical elitist that have deemed metal to be 'unartistic' or 'a sterile form of music'. I have actually received those kinds of comments before and know I am not the only one, thus the comments war. Addressing an issue that has strong emotional hold within the audience with what might feel as a subversion of their reason-to-be tends to invalidate the possibility of rational debate.
I don't know, man. there's a video of some dude here on UA-cam playing raining blood on an acoustic guitar and it sounds exactly like a metal song being played on an acoustic guitar which, by your logic, it shouldn't.
Hmm I want to rewind a bit and I honestly want to know your thoughts about rock-- does it have musical characteristics? Is there not a musical characteristic that makes something sound "heavy"?
I know the term "metal" was used to (negatively) describe the clashing, percussive sound of early versions of that genre (I know, just... I dunno what else to call it lol). So, wouldn't those be musical characteristics?
I'm not trying to be combative, like you I just wanna learn and have an academic conversation.
I do not disagree with any of your arguments. I just disagree on the definition you give to the phrase "musical genre". I understand that the melodic/rhythmic aspect of a piece of metal music is not what classifies the piece of music as metal unlike many of the other genres you have mentioned like jazz, but it is the sound design aesthetic choices which makes metal music metal. But when classifying music into a genre, should we not take into account these aesthetic choices into account? Thus making metal a genre of music.
I mean, as a metal head, if someone asks what genre of music you listen to, what are you going to answer?
sure but what , NWOBHM , classic metal , doom metal , power metal , speed metal , stoner metal , death metal , hardcore , grindcore , what ???
I think this entire argument is purely just semantics. You have arbitrarily assigned aspects of mysic such as what notes are being played and scales and keys and just music theory in general as "musical style" and aspects such as tone and timbre and "aggressiveness" as "aesthetic" while i think that all of those aspects should be under the same category.
At the end of the day, music is just sound, and these are all different qualities of sound, so i dont get why they should count differently towards what makes a musical style.
There's nothing arbitrary about it. One is what you're playing, the other is how you're playing it. You can't have one without the other, but they're not the same thing.
Of course it's somewhat semantical, but the semantics aren't the point - I'm saying this with a purpose, which I outlined in the first video (and in this one as well) - there's no reason to be restricted by a metal definition, because it doesn't define the what.
So my Dad was right...
Adding to the evidenece/point, most sub-genres come from external combinations: modernist, baroque, Swedish folk, punk, hardcore (80's, & 90's), ambient, prog rock, industrial, etc. which do tend to have melodic and harmonic forms that are distinct + identifiable. Another thing is metalcore and how 'blurred' the lines can be between metal and new stylings, hardcore or not.
One year later (in fly time), and here's what I've got. When you use the word "genre" you're absolutely correct. But not "style". Metal is the "style" you're adding when you crank something/anything to eleven. Also, as bland as it is, tofu is an entre/genre. Metal is more like habanero sauce, or if we want to use darker, bloodier imagery. Metal is au jus.
The fact of the matter is everything dude said is true. Back in the 90s I was trying to uncover what punk really was. Everyone would argue back and forth on what it was but when you boiled it down it really was about "attitude “. Metal I really not that different
Metal is classical music with electric guitars and distortion. Even the Cookie Monster vocals came from Cats Duet.
Blues with distortion is Southern rock or modern blues, jazz with distortion is math rock or ska rock depending on the type of jazz, country with distortion is rockabilly or modern country or Southern rock depending on the style of country and rap with distortion is numetal.
Drop D isn't heavy because that would mean Dolly Parton performs heavy music. Yes, her guitar work is in drop D.
Loved both videos and even as a metaller of nearly 40 years I still learned a lot. But the titles are kind of misleading. You proved metal doesn't have a clear defining characteristic, but not that it isn't music.
But this is what I love about metal. No matter what mood I'm in, whatever I feel like listening to, ranging from tear your face off aggressive, to something more deep and soulful, to let's party and get wasted, to doomy and gloomy, to silly songs about pirates, metal has me covered.
Also worth it for the butthurt comments that missed the point, so for that I salute you! You got another subscriber. Cheers!
I think that the very wide variety of music that you are listing as metal makes it impossible to see what the root of the metal tree is. If you look back when there was Rock, Heavy Rock, and Country on the cutting edge of popular music. I would say the birth of what is today's metal was when Rock, which is powerful blues smashed into the speed of neo-classical. So all the Eddy guys in the early 80's heard Malmsteen, at that point metal was born. The unifying musical thing is the technical ability but it is often played over some variation of a basic chord progression theory, like Jazz. The Rock before metal had much busier more melodic rhythm guitar parts. Even bands that were always looked at as 3 chord bands like AC/DC in the early 80's started having much more activity in Malcom's part. Rock was very "poppy" using very major sounding tonalities. When metal happened the sound was darker, Randy and Malmsteen brought the classical diatonic mentality using minor modes, harmonic minor and it's modes. From that grew the high speed like Racer X, as that music grew and changed, for example the new vocalist have become much more of an additional instrument to the overall sound of the music that they are the traditional singer. With all the growth and change, if you tear it apart you will still, generally, find a highly technical minor tone lead, over a blunt course chord progression and an aggressive drum and bass part. There are a million 6 2 5 1 progressions in Jazz that sound different because of inversions and extended notes. I think that metal has grown so much in the 45-50 years since it rose from punk, rock, and fusion, it I hard for me to hear the difference between one metal style and another. I still just think of if as all metal, remember once Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, and Jethro Tull were all called acid rock and they are not at all alike. The definition of metal is in its basic structure and how that grew and was different from what was going on then, 1975-1985 Punk and Thrash were still really just faster blues rock. Randy brought what Richie Blackmore was doing to the masses, then Malmsteen did what no body had ever seen before. Metal was the bastard child of that, and you can still find it in all the many types of metal there are today and it is different than country, rock, blues, jazz, or any other style. Even the classical period material that metal took from is nothing in comparison because the underside of metal is bare not using Neapolitan chords, just the twisted modes of the harmonic minor scales.
I agree. Metal is pretty much an aesthetic but it just feels weird when I say "I like metal aesthetic/style" rather than "I like metal music"
Just doesn't feel right when its said that way
I can take my guitar and start writing my music with any given chord progression and any given melody - and will end up with a metal song. Could be based on jazz, blues, opera, baroque or pop. So yes - I agree with it.
Counterpoint: You made the claim that the instrumentation of metal ("heavy guitar, heavy bass, drums, vocals") doesn't dictate the genre or style. But I would argue that many genres or styles are dictated in no small part by their instrumentation, even across time. Using Western music as an analogy to split music more evenly than "genres," in 18th century Europe, we could divide music distinctly two (or three) ways. There was "National music," extravagant performances to celebrate the royalty and/or nation (and was often state-funded), performed by people raised in its tradition, what we now know as "classical music." The instrumentation is broadly similar for these pieces across many European nations - an orchestra, or a subset of orchestral instruments. Many of these instruments were inaccessible to the commoner, and even if a commoner could attain one, they wouldn't be writing or performing "classical music" because they hadn't been raised with the rules of that tradition, and education on the subject was scarce outside of direct tutorship.
But there was also "Street Music" and "Court Music," aka "Folk music," music for people with less financially privileged backgrounds. It was usually smaller and simpler in instrumentation, or very commonly soloists would perform on instruments, and they'd have more access to instruments like the "viol" family of strings, the street organ, the hurdy gurdy, the guitar, or the bagpipes. Performance with these instruments were far more accessible to the performer, not requiring an entire platoon of musicians with heavy pockets, free time, and dedication to rehearse for dozens of hours every week. In the early U.S., we no longer had the culture of classical music, and access to those instruments was more difficult, so most of early America's music that we know today is what we call "American folk."
The "genre" or style of playing is derived from the culture and background of the people playing the instrument, sure. But the instrumentation is a very culturally informative part of who those players are, and it often mirrors the culture of the people with access to that instrument and desire to play it. Metal is made with accessible instruments, and in most places not so well-received in "high culture" as to get access to national funding. So, therefore, metal is music in the undying tradition of court/street/folk music.
you're gonna wanna watch that part of the video one more time hahahaha
Metal is a spirit. It's an esthetic of intensity and it's very appealing!
I would argue that Metal could be considered Modern Baroque or Romantic classical music styles. Due to the heavy usage of dissonance, counterpoint melody, elaborate composition, techniques that can mimic the sound of a harpsichord, heavy emotion and drama, epic themes and dynamic contrast.
Apparently it only exists for shock value. That's why Ozzy (age 75) does it, to piss off his parents (Lilian (née Unitt; 1916-2001) and John Thomas "Jack" Osbourne (1915-1977))
@ with that one commenter, I suppose that is what they think lol.
I somehow put this response on the wrong comment hahahaha, sorry about that, I have no idea how that happened
@@treyxaviermusic Haha, no worries. Hope you had a good Turkey day!
"metal has to repel parents"...I love metal. I'm a parent. Did I divide by 0!?
Impossible... Metal heads don't get laid.😂
It’s over #DIV/0! error bros.
9:02 "Ain't nothing but a thing" - Lincoln Osiris(Kirk Lazarus(Tropic Thunder))
I think what the comment around 11:00 means is that: what if sound design is actually enough to define a genre, and that harmony rules are not so relevant? Maybe jazz is defined by II V I progressions, but wht if that is actually the exception rather than the norm? I'm curious what Farya Faraji would have to say. What I get from him is that arrangement and orchestration sometimes is a lot more defining of an era or location than melody and chords.
Also: double kick drums. Some metal bands don't have them, but even then, metal has undeniably an emphasis on the kick drum. And yes some rock and jazz artists also used them intensively, but I would say there's an entire range of techniques and languages that have been developped spacifically by metal drummers. That riff you played on the piano, it falls flat precisely because the sound deign of the kick drum (including EQ'ing to emphasise the high end 'click') is *necessary* for it to work, in other words, the sound design progressively creates it's own musical characteristics. And, maybe my ignorance of EDM styles is going to bite me in the butt here, but it seems to me those rhythmic patterns are kind of unique to metal (adding hertas and triplet bursts...), precisely beause they can only be played by double kick drums. And yes electronic music can play crazy patterns too, but because they don't have the physical limitations of the drummer's body, they can do different stuff and will tend to push the envelope is different directions (insane speeds at full velocity...).
Maybe so, but it doesn’t really affect the point I’m making, which is that across all of metal there aren’t any unifying musical things. Just because that’s also true of other genres doesn’t make it not true, only that the things I’m saying also apply to them.
Fair enough, and to be clear, I don't disagree with the overall point you make. I think some of the comments you quote here give interesting insights about metal being about intensity or anti-establishment stance (though this latter point can be debated since metal does have some mainstream outreach). As a listener I was drawn to metal because of the dramatic intensity I was lacking in other genres. And as a composer, I find it indeed interesting to put a metal varnish on other styles of writing.
But I still think, even if it's not universal across all sub-genres, metal has developped some elements that are unique to it. Styles of riffs, drum patterns, harsh vocals...Let me illustrate the point with Polyphia's latest work. If metal is just sound design, then clearly a song like Playing God is not metal. No guitar distortion, drums are mostly electronic samples (yes, metal drums are heavily processed, but not completely replaced by electronically generated samples)...and I would agree: there's no anger or sadness or melancholy, no dramatic intensity. However, there are clearly elements inherited from metal in the writing style, obviously due to their earlier work. One could say they put a "chill party music" varnish on top of metal...but...you can't put varnish on varnish, can you?
Maybe it's just a matter of semantics, and metal is more a family of musical styles rather than one, and then each of them has its own charcateristics: doom: low tempos, death: fast, dissonant, complex, power: tenor voices, fast, more reliance on major chords... Metal Music Theory's channel also has good illustrations of which elements make up certain metal compositions, and yes, they're not exclusively metal, but their use can definitely be a basis for defining sub-genres.
This is great! So many people are musically ignorant about what you are trying to convey.
Your comment reactions were HILARIOUS!
I really enjoyed your video. It's good to have this sort of discussions going on ; and if it's combining music, pizza and tofu it's even better! 😆 I think you are on point. For almost every non-metal song there is a metal cover of it out there... and that would explain it! But maybe the same concept could be applied to other "genres" of music like electronic music, indie music, chill out music, etc. So might just the definition of music genre be outdated?
I feel there is a switch from metal being a genre to metal being a sound sometime in the 90s. Most 80s bands still have a common ground, and the early 90s bands are also mostly adhering to this. A good example is Tang Dynasty from China. Unlike newer eastern metal bands, that often are much more folk oriented, this band (started in 89) is not very disting from music that could be made by Judas Priest, Savatage and so on
Metal strings make music. Therefore metal is music lol
I can’t say if there is anything musical that makes metal, metal. It’s mostly just attitude and style. Almost all metal music is written around blues. This is a rough one.
Most metal has almost nothing musical in common with the blues, in spite of its origins.
I listen to a wide range of music styles, but metal is definitely the only style that induces head-bob-stank-face. I think you’re on to something with the intangible feeling idea. So maybe we define metal as “a group of stylistic choices that induces stank face”
2:00 as a metalhead, this is a fucking banger
Ehh... 578??? 0s and 1s??? Djent grooves?? Breakdowns?? Metal is an umbrella term for all the heavy styles and didn't exist before distorted electric guitar, which proves your point. BUT, you conveniently overlooked that metal subgenres absolutely have different musical characteristics. Everyone knows songwriting differs in metalcore vs progressive death vs pirate metal vs postrock vs black.
If by conveniently overlooked you mean addressed thoroughly
So, for starters, I agree with you. "Metal" originated as a derogatory insult for bands people thought of as just making noise and not music, then the bands simply embraced the insult, reclaimed it, and it became a defiant badge of pride. Even in the term's origin, it's not a "musical" label.
That said, I do think a lot of the confusion and disagreement here comes from what you mean when you say "musical characteristics". In both videos, you examine some traits and trends in metal music that might be nearly ubiquitous across most all metal, but aren't "musical characteristics" or "musical concepts". To the untrained or unschooled in music, one would think basically anything involved in the writing and/or performing of music would be a "musical characteristic". So I guess that'd be my question for a comment reply or perhaps another video, that hopefully pushes the conversation forward with clarity: what do you mean by "musical characteristics" when you say that metal isn't defined by any?
"A music genre is a conventional category that identifies some pieces of music as belonging to a shared tradition or set of conventions." - Wikipedia
I think the problem is that we maybe don't have a strict definition of what a Music Genre is, so I just believe on Wikipedia's definition, but your argument is based on a different definition, so there is no way to argue if whether metal is or it isn't a musical genre or style since we don't have a concrete true definition of it.
And even... Are Music Genre and Music Style the same thing?
He is like: Matal? I have never heard about that...
The single note riff just sounds like Beethoven💀
I was thinking of modern composer John Williams: specifically the theme from "1941".
Spirit is everything. What’s the difference between a horror film and a thriller?
The original video was VERY clickbaity. The title states that metal is not music (Outrageous! Ludicrous! Preposterous!), whereas the actual message is that metal is not a unified musical style (quite true). These are two very different things. I know it, you know it and anybody with more than two brain cells knows it. It's fine, you need views and clickbait titles helps. I, for instance, had lost touch with the channel in the last few month and now I am back watching and commenting. Mission accomplished, but don't try to deny that you "tricked" me (and I assume others) into watching your video 🤣
I mean, the guy makes content as a revenue stream. Of course the title is going to be crafted in a way that will entice or guarantee that as many people as possible click on and watch the video.
Kind of the point.
@ true, but enticing is one thing, misleading another
@@Pesso86 there was nothing misleading in the title. We just either agree or disagree with what he's stating.
@ the title said metal is not music. In the video he said that it is not a musical style. Are you telling me that there is no difference between these two concepts?
@ I disagree with the title because it is clearly false, whereas I agree with the video because metal is a cauldron in which a bunch of different styles are thrown together. Still music though
To the one that called you a soy boy... I'm a grandfather and my grandkids call me Geekpa ... and a die hard metalhead. X-Men and metal go together.
I think i see what you mean, if we take classical music and speed it the fuck up, make a drunk guy scream and shred over it, we get children of bodom. If we then take a jazz song, and make a less drunk guy play the sax, while you have two other dudes shredding and double bass the fuck out of it you get rivers of nihil.
Generally, I think that genres and labels are stupid. But since we're getting into semantics... You mentioned extended harmony in jazz. You're right, jazz easily gets clichéd for playing extended chords with alterations. But without the other unifying characteristics, such as improvisation, syncopated rhythms, blues, and whatnot, it's hard to call it jazz. You see extended harmony in classical music and neo-soul/R&B. I think jazz is more about the rhythm, and there are iconic motifs that jazz has claimed. These days, I think metal is also way more about rhythm, depending on the "style." Obviously, most metal won't be using crazy chords (unless you're Dave Davidson), because playing anything beyond power chords on distorted guitars gets crunchy. I'm sure you can think of iconic rhythms/motifs, even extremely generic ones that are a signature of metal, or even "metalcore." Or, you can think of mundane ways that musicians of this caliber tend to craft their riffs and songs. I mean, that's one way to make music interesting, right? Take generic stuff and turn it into something else. Genres are always evolving, and nearly every style of music is significantly different today than back then.
11:04 - Lmao the Arnie accent was spot on haha. It caught me off guard.
Btw. I totally agree with your first (and this) video. Each metal 'subgenre' is pretty much a different genre/style mixed with the metal 'sound'. Old school Heavy Metal is just Blues + Metal sound, Power Metal is Heavy metal but faster and with dragons... (12757834 subgenres later)... Thall is just Atmospheric Electronic Music but made with metal instruments.
As a metal musician myself, who never liked to put myself in those 'boxes' I always struggled to understand why people were so gatekeeping about them. I mean I literally take inspirations from Folk, Ambience, Cinematic, Electronic, Pop music and various 'subgenres' of Metal. Is the music I make metal anymore? Is this a new subgenre? Is this something else entirely? I don't care. What I care about is to bring my vision to life, but using the metal instrumentation and soundscapes which is much more 'raw' and 'chaotic' than if I was doing it the regular way.
My most popular cover (which has Metal in the title) often gets comments like 'Erm acchually, It's soft rock not metal 🤓☝'. Who cares? It has soft parts, but it also has blast beats and screams for a while.
My 'Encyclopedia Metallum' page listed me as 'Folk Metal' for a while. And A LOT of people would mention me saying that I'm 'Folk Metal' just because it was written like that there.
I even had a metal snob friend (no longer a friend) who would disagree with ME about what music I play. She would take Metal Encyclopedia as the definitive source of knowledge, even though it was simply wrong. She would argue with me about why it was correct and I was wrong. Bitch this is my music, what the fuck do you mean? lol.
I just make music that I enjoy making, I don't care what the hell it is.
I've had a similar thought about grunge and post grunge where it feels more like a lyrical style (to me) that talks about the true "trash" in the world
Extreme Metal is a genre though, or at least the subgenres.
Black Metal: Blastbeats, dark melodies, minor, pentagonic, chromatic, or harmonic minor, high frequencies (yes also production but it is so deeply connected to for example how barchords ring out...), mid to high screams, tremmelo........
Death metal: downtuned, blastbeats, mostly falsechord screams, a lot of powerchords.........
You're only making my point further - each of those subgenres have all that in common between the bands within it, but NOT with metal as whole. You find almost none of those things in power metal, for example, so what does the "metal" part of the name actually mean? Nothing musical. Which isn't a bad thing, just an observation.
Yes but I just wanted to say that EXTREME metal, or more specific SUBGENRES can be seen as a music genre since the music in them have a lot in common. This comment was about extreme metal not all of heavy metal.
Overall metal could perhaps be considered as a collection of music genres who share loose musical commong ground but are tied together by an ideologie and a lifestyle.
Yeah I can get on board with that. It's not a cohesive musical style though.
The problem with music “genres” is exactly the same as all other industrialized arts. It’s only a label created by media and disc labels to sell disk and differentiate them from competing labels and artists.
In film (my industry) we have the blockbuster genres; thriller, comedy, drama (which is funny because all films with actors are drama), action, etc. But they are not really genres in dramatic arts there are only three genres Tragedy, Comedy and Piece, that’s it, every piece of dramatic material written since the Greeks can fit into those three.
Same with music. If you’re a real musician you can write any genre easily because it’s just music and it obeys the same set of rules. Then put a label on it to sell it on the marketplace.
Bro is just objectively wrong 💀
wow I never thought of it like that
Metal is just controlled chaos. Usually distorted guitars and angry ‘singing.’ It doesn’t necessarily need to be placed into a certain bucket.
Same comment I put on the last one: I reject the premise without listening to the argument. Whatever argument you present is going to come down to creating categories based on aesthetics which have nothing to do with actual musicality, which is a category that cannot be a priori defined. You might as well be claiming "water isn't food". If people say it's music, it's music. There's no other discussion to be had. Good job with the bait, though. You got me to reply. New part: This is also a good time to let everyone know you can't "optimize" an opinion into a fact, either. There's no amount of argumentation you can make that magically converts your opinion about a categorical property into an intrinsic fact. That's not how reality or logic works.
Whatever you wanna believe is ok by me, buddy. Was all that work worth it then?
What about the song Barracuda by Heart? Is that secretly a metal song?
Definition of genre: "a category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, characterized by similarities in form, style, or subject matter."
And a music genre according to Wikipedia: "A music genre is a conventional category that identifies some pieces of music as belonging to a shared tradition or set of conventions."
Even if we agreed that "metal is an aesthetic choice sound design applied to other genres", it'd still fall under the category of music genre under these definitions. But also, a lot of subgenres like death or black metal are undeniably genres. So is death metal a genre, but metal itself not? What's the other genre that the metal aesthetic sound choice is applied to in order to create death metal if it's also not a genre?
when did I say genre
@@treyxaviermusic Genre and style are generally interchangeable. How do you define them differently?
@ I very intentionally used “musical style” to keep the discussion about the music, and not about the myriad other things that could be grouped in together. When people say “genre”, they’re usually referring to a much broader package of traits that could include everything from fashion to location, album art, age group etc. All of which are cool and important, but not music in themselves.
@@treyxaviermusic Replace every mention of genre with style. Are metal subgenres, like black metal or death metal, musical styles? And furthermore, how is a specific "aesthetic sound design choice" not a style?
Ah ok it's just semantics. See you later.
You'd think the predominantly non-conformist types that make up the metal scene would be excited to hear that their favorite 'genre' isn't a genre at all but something that transcends the definitions of genre entirely. I can only guess that, as you said, it's a tribal thing and it's hard to gatekeep the scene without well defined fences.
Rock is basically a nix of two genres country and blues add distortions and play with the speed and you got many metal genres. Add another influence and vary speed another time and your got the metal subgenres, voila he's basically right.
Heavy metal or no metal at all, whimps and posers leave the hall.
Metal is. That's all you need to know. Trey, Owola water bottle? Now that's my jam.
Hey I tried chugs were the only thing I could think of that are in just about all metal songs. 🤣
Yeah, the metal has to be intense even some metal is softer then rock yet, but is still classified as metal, artist don't write one softer song and are still a metal band. Like I find it insane that people who are not that educated on music more, metal being defined by how heavy it is seems crazy to me it's so much more, like you say it's an aesthetic, it's lyrical theming very loose of course, Black Sabbath and Judas Priest very different sounding. But death metal and black are very different from those two, but these people who want too move artist they don't like to a different genre.
I get into this with everyone because I listen to all genres I don't even just listen to metal either, therefore I am not metal regardless of the fact was my favorite genre since as far back as I could remember.
If you remove a bunch of musical or stylistic rules from music, it's not music anymore? I was always under the impression that, if you have some sort of purposely constructed rhythm and tonal content, you had music.
Now if you want one unified musical element that defines metal , it would be power chords I think?
But I do agree, the metal genre without the distorted guitars would never be a thing. The sound design is more important to certain genres than others.
thing is, just because you cannot define something, does not mean you don't understand what it is, or that it cannot be defined. I shall point to Plato's obviously flawed definition of a human, yet we all know what humans are (as did the greeks back then) and we obviously do exist, as we did back then.
there is, to my knowledge, only one book that attemtps a musical analysis of metal from an academic perspective, and it's called "Schwermetallanalysen" (analyses of heavy metal(s)) by Prof. Dietmar Elflein, in which one of his theses is that metal is moreso a stream of thought that combines typically american rhythmic ideas (of blues, for example) with european musical structures and an emphasis on virtuosity and mastery of the instrument. For example, he points out that where in punk, the appearance of an "unpolished" song is deliberately crafted while making the song, in metal, the song is often meticulously crafted and played and the choice of heavy distortion and/or effects then adds this unpolished/raw feel in post.
this would somewhat agree with your claim that there isn't something musically defining about metal (i.e. something not present in other genres)
I completely agree with this 'metal is tofu' argument. But could you show me an example of 'un-metal-ed' music? What I mean is metal music played without metal-style production, so it no longer sounds like metal.
then what about EDM and techno? are those musical styles? not sure Ive listened that kind of music compositions in any other music genre... but for example, what genre uses double bass drum and screaming? I mean, rap is a style of music because of how the lyrics are accomodated, and reggaeton is a style because of the beat which is always the same. so maybe powermetal is a musical genre in the way that its a style of music with quite melodic simple chords, fast pased, doublebass drum and loud high pitch notes? how is that not a music genre?
also musical notes choices depends on the instrument sound. not all instruments play the same or have the same capabilities, for example, you wont play a full chord in a distorted guitar because it sounds awful, then you do powerchord. metal is powerchord based music, in jazz you can have powerchords but the music doesnt revolves around it.
so infact musical genre CAN include instrument choices, or can not, but depends on the genre.at the end we use the music genre tag to categorize different types of sounds, melodic or not.