Great videos about these tents. You can do a MSR Fly-first set-up with a tiny mod made ahead of time (like at home). With the tent completely set-up; Take a lightweight cord, put a small permanent loop at one end. Attach to a pole at the two-pole end, run the cord to the pole at the opposite end of the tent and make a small permanent loop in the cord to attach there. Then run the cord to the third pole, make a permanent loop to attach there and then again at the starting pole. You now have a very nice little string ground-frame to insert the poles in, set-up the fly (including the crossbar) and then go inside to set-up the ground cloth and inner tent.
Good review, educational not just a commercial. I appreciate somebody that can give the good with the bad with practical mechanical knowledge on how things are going to work in real life
Always fantastic, concise, detailed and sequential reviews! Thanks for your details and execution of videoss. Not just this topic but all. Every reviewer should watch your vids first!
First, let me tell you, I love your channel! Love watching your coverage of the hikes you do. I cried with you on your through hike last summer. Love your gear reviews. I find them indispensable. This video really helped me decide between the MSR and BA. I have a BA Copper Spur for multi-day trips with the kids, and that’s been awesome. But I was looking for a smaller, lighter tent for just me and the wife, and one I could take solo. So I was comparing the BA Tiger Wall vs MSR FreeLite. Cost is more affordable for the MSR, especially after you include the BA footprint in there. And I liked that it’s marginally lighter. After watching this though, I picked up the BA Tiger Wall and footprint today! The brow pole advantages and ability to setup fly first with the BA footprint in the rain sealed the deal. I’m on the BC coast, lol. I wouldn’t have known and understood these nuances without your comprehensive review. Thanks, Justin. You’re the man. Keep on doing what you do my friend.
Thanks for this, Justin. I VERY nearly bought the FreeLite until I saw this video. The issue with rain getting into the tent and the cross pole being too short is such a staggering design flaw that I am surprised it even made it to market. Thanks again for this great review, you legit save me some £££.
The big Agnes's clip on system is actually harder in mud or sand, i spent a year in this tent and the female part of the clip would constantly get sand/pebbles/ mud in it. I would need to clean it out before it would clip in
I got a tiger wall mtn glo and so far so good. The biggest down side is the tapered floor shape. As work around I got a Exped Synmat duo mat that fits perfectly inside. I hope to be able test it during a trip soon.
The MSR Hubba Hubba tent poles frayed the first trip I took it on. I heard the Hubba Hubba MSR tarp is overly sprayed with chemical as a response to the 2020 debacle with the tarp seam leaking issue. I assume they're approach is similar to the Freelite Big Agnes just has a better reputation. Big Agnes Copper Spur 2 poles are aluminum too so you won't have them fray. The Hubba Hubba has the lightweight plastic (kevlar?) Poles which I had an issue with. Not sure about the pole design on these, but Big Agnes just knows how to make tents better and has more experience. Stick to pots and pans MSR
Do you think the Tiger Wall can fit a Nemo tensor insulated regular wide and a neoair xlite regular wide? (so two wide pad but one mummy and one rectangular)
@@BigDawgCAM yes it depends if it will be mainly used solo sometime 2 people or mainly 2 people sometime solo For me I'm looking for a 2p tent just for myself and sometime 2 (friend girlfriend brother) , so it has to be light and fit narrow campsites 👍
@@dougieranger hey sorry for the late answer mate can't speak of the Nemo tensor durability wise since i haven't field tested it yet :/ but clearly durability on the long run is my main concern But by first look here are my thoughts comparing it to the famous neoair : the fabric is softer and less sweatier, which is nice but it definitely feels weaker. On the noise topic i find that the crinkle sound is substantially less present for sure but the squeeki sound with tent floor is more importent. Packabilty is great! (due to thinner fabric i suppose). Weight is as advertise. I blow it with 2 and a half Exped schnozzel pumpbag ul M. Valve système is a bit of a pain to operate... It definitely feels a bit less warm than the xlite but should be plenty sufficient for 3 season camping (plus the new version is warmer). And last but not least the confort is pretty good again comparing it to the xlite, I sleep on my stomach with wide spread arms and really appreciate width and stability of the Regular wide version. I don't really sea the thickness difference with the xlite to be honest but it's not a problem for me To conclude I think i will be a great pad if it consent to stay inflated haha (sorry for my mistakes I'm a French guy ^^)
@@KevInpouich Pas problème mon ami et desolé pour mon Français, je suis Ecossais. L’Alliance Vieux! Thanks for your excellent answer, it really is appreciated my friend. I just bought a new tent, footprint and tarp so I better not buy anything else this month. 😂 Thanks again.
Those plastic clips for attaching the fly on the Tiger Wall would be a real pain to deal with if one broke in a storm. MSR's fly attachment is also easier to deal with when wearing gloves or mitts.
I’ve had the older (now discontinued) model of the Tiger Wall for a few years (snagged it on sale right as they were on the way out). I really like it, but idk how suitable it would be as a true 2 person tent… It’s definitely cozy. It does have super decent head room, though. I also like the structured foot box, it keeps a good distance between the corner of the tent and your sleeping bag/ pad. The most annoying part was mine didn’t come with enough stakes, and the guy lines are really short and not adjustable. I really dislike the new model’s door design, and it sounds like the zip on the fly is worse now too. I’ve never really had problems with my older model but I do have to take care not to snag the zip. If I ever need to replace, I think I’ll go for a Nemo Hornet or a different BA model rather than the new design.
My MSR HHNX got wrecked the first night I had it. It was windy but it’s too feeble for Scotland. I only buy Hilleberg now, expensive, heavy, yes but totally bombproof.
@@Zak_McKracken That is precisely what they are, unfortunately here in Scotland, the weather can turn very nasty, even in summer very quickly. I like MSR cooking gear but I won’t buy their tents, no sir.
How do they both cope with wind? Here in the UK we have very windy and wet conditions on a regular basis. I have a DCF trekking pole tent but would like an UL free standing tent if possible
I was almost excited. I previously owned the tiger wall and loved it except that it is NOT free standing. Looks like the MSR is the same. Though that shouldn’t be a dealbreaker it was for me. I live near Yosemite. Granite. Too many frustrations each and every time trying to stake out the bottom 1/2. I now own the copper spur. Slightly heavier, but in good weather I’m known to just stake out the vestibule and call ‘er done.
Hi Justin, I love your inspiring channel! I have a request. I noticed that all of the backpacking UA-camrs recommend down products, but no one talks about cruelty-free down. About 80% of down is plucked from birds that are still alive, which is torturous. Even American companies often partake in this because they source their down from China, which doesn't have animal cruelty laws. Whenever you recommend a down product, can you briefly mention whether it's cruelty-free or not? Or at least caution your viewers to check?? Thank you! So many people watch your channel so it would make a huge difference!
Tiger wall and freelite have too much mesh. Good in theory but in practice I prefer higher solid walls because when the wind blows it kicks up dust everywhere inside the tent. And wind is everywhere when going outdoors. Moreover solid walls don't necessarily add or reduce condensation depending on the type of solid materials. Not sure why big agnes went from the more solid design from 2018-2019 to the all mesh in 2020. Just a backwards move IMHO
Very valid points about the amount of mesh, indeed. My guess, without knowing the weight of BA TW before 2020, would be that Big Agnes changed to mesh to reduce total weight of the tent (assuming mesh is lighter than solid material per area).
I love my tiger wall but the bottom split open and I have to repair it. I was using the footprint too, which didn’t split. I was in a slightly rocky are in CO when it happened. And I had only used it a few times previously here in NY. I can’t figure out what happened.
@@JustinOutdoors - I don't know about the Freelite, but for the Hubba Hubba there are hacks for adding rings to the universal footprint that let you pitch fly first. From REI's reviews of the footprint, "Works perfectly with my Hubba Hubba NX 2, but only after I took another reviewers idea to add split rings to the four corners. I ended up using stainless steel 8mm lock washers from the local hardware store - perfect fit. Simply use two pairs of pliers to slightly open it up, thread it onto the footprint's grey tie down, then use the pliers to twist them back to flush. The other reviewer mentioned using split rings from the fishing store but didn't list the size.... The ones I had on hand were too big and too small." This has worked well for my Hubba Hubba.
Rainproofing seems to be a common and major design flaw common to American designed tents... you'd think that given how much rain the Cascades get, a tent designed in Washington state would be more rain optimized... both for when the tent doors are open, and when pitching. Those flaws alone would convince me to not consider either of these tents. I'd rather use a tarp and a bug bivy, though bugs aren't an issue when it's raining.
I don’t know if it’s been said, but, 2 problems with MSR Company/tent #1. MSR poles have a tendency to break and #2 MSR customer service is a nightmare to deal with: they take forever to respond if they don’t outright Ghost You‼️
For me this new freelite is more between the Nemo Hornet and the Big Agnes Tiger wall Big advantage of the Nemo hornet in my opinion is partial solid interior wall to block cold wind and blowing dust (and a bit of splash effect), something that the previous tiger wall had :'( and the setup of the hornet is also juste a liiiiitle bit faster because you don't have to care about the top pole (volumizing clips are easier) But yes for the freelite, this door and top pole design is trash in my opinion...
I have the old tiger wall design, I cannot believe they changed the door design. If it doesn’t come back any time soon, and I ever need a replacement, I’ll be looking into Nemo Hornets.
I don't believe at all that you don't get water through the cutout on the msr, you just said that the nylon will soak all the water. This is also my experience with a Nemo which had the same design. My solution is to use a polycro ground sheet and extend it to the cutout, but i didn't tested it yet.
Wind and rain. You don't discuss getting hit by rain driven in sideways by wind. The fly needs to protect the inner from all directions, not just the rain from directly above.
Justin your videos are always really good. But this seems more like it should have been called which tent that you're forced to wake up at 6am when the sun comes up regardless of if you want to or not, is better. Seems sleeping is the reason I couldn't be a hiker haha.
No offense dude but it’s aggravating all these tests and reviews on $500 tents or on camping gear in general. I’m not rich and I know most people arnt either. I know it’s not your fault but just something.
Great videos about these tents. You can do a MSR Fly-first set-up with a tiny mod made ahead of time (like at home). With the tent completely set-up; Take a lightweight cord, put a small permanent loop at one end. Attach to a pole at the two-pole end, run the cord to the pole at the opposite end of the tent and make a small permanent loop in the cord to attach there. Then run the cord to the third pole, make a permanent loop to attach there and then again at the starting pole. You now have a very nice little string ground-frame to insert the poles in, set-up the fly (including the crossbar) and then go inside to set-up the ground cloth and inner tent.
Your gear reviews are stellar! Very thorough and you actually test the gear in the field. Love it
Good review, educational not just a commercial. I appreciate somebody that can give the good with the bad with practical mechanical knowledge on how things are going to work in real life
My Tiger Wall is 4 years old and love it.
Do you use a footprint? Does the bottom get wet?
Always fantastic, concise, detailed and sequential reviews! Thanks for your details and execution of videoss. Not just this topic but all. Every reviewer should watch your vids first!
First, let me tell you, I love your channel! Love watching your coverage of the hikes you do. I cried with you on your through hike last summer. Love your gear reviews. I find them indispensable. This video really helped me decide between the MSR and BA. I have a BA Copper Spur for multi-day trips with the kids, and that’s been awesome. But I was looking for a smaller, lighter tent for just me and the wife, and one I could take solo. So I was comparing the BA Tiger Wall vs MSR FreeLite. Cost is more affordable for the MSR, especially after you include the BA footprint in there. And I liked that it’s marginally lighter. After watching this though, I picked up the BA Tiger Wall and footprint today! The brow pole advantages and ability to setup fly first with the BA footprint in the rain sealed the deal. I’m on the BC coast, lol. I wouldn’t have known and understood these nuances without your comprehensive review. Thanks, Justin. You’re the man. Keep on doing what you do my friend.
Now THAT’S a thorough review!
Thanks for this, Justin. I VERY nearly bought the FreeLite until I saw this video. The issue with rain getting into the tent and the cross pole being too short is such a staggering design flaw that I am surprised it even made it to market. Thanks again for this great review, you legit save me some £££.
Wait to see the nemo hornet which has no cross pole and it's a perfect triangle
The big Agnes's clip on system is actually harder in mud or sand, i spent a year in this tent and the female part of the clip would constantly get sand/pebbles/ mud in it. I would need to clean it out before it would clip in
A great thorough video! But you just fyi you have the width measurements in cm and in measurements on the msr backwards at 8:38
I got a tiger wall mtn glo and so far so good. The biggest down side is the tapered floor shape. As work around I got a Exped Synmat duo mat that fits perfectly inside. I hope to be able test it during a trip soon.
The MSR Hubba Hubba tent poles frayed the first trip I took it on. I heard the Hubba Hubba MSR tarp is overly sprayed with chemical as a response to the 2020 debacle with the tarp seam leaking issue. I assume they're approach is similar to the Freelite
Big Agnes just has a better reputation. Big Agnes Copper Spur 2 poles are aluminum too so you won't have them fray. The Hubba Hubba has the lightweight plastic (kevlar?) Poles which I had an issue with. Not sure about the pole design on these, but Big Agnes just knows how to make tents better and has more experience. Stick to pots and pans MSR
Do you think the Tiger Wall can fit a Nemo tensor insulated regular wide and a neoair xlite regular wide? (so two wide pad but one mummy and one rectangular)
My mate bought a Nemo Tensor insulated wide mat last night. Looked absolutely brilliant online.
Have you had yours long mate? Is it a good mat?
I think if can just barely fit that. But man, that’s a tight fit for two people
@@BigDawgCAM yes it depends if it will be mainly used solo sometime 2 people or mainly 2 people sometime solo
For me I'm looking for a 2p tent just for myself and sometime 2 (friend girlfriend brother) , so it has to be light and fit narrow campsites 👍
@@dougieranger hey sorry for the late answer mate can't speak of the Nemo tensor durability wise since i haven't field tested it yet :/ but clearly durability on the long run is my main concern
But by first look here are my thoughts comparing it to the famous neoair : the fabric is softer and less sweatier, which is nice but it definitely feels weaker. On the noise topic i find that the crinkle sound is substantially less present for sure but the squeeki sound with tent floor is more importent. Packabilty is great! (due to thinner fabric i suppose). Weight is as advertise. I blow it with 2 and a half Exped schnozzel pumpbag ul M. Valve système is a bit of a pain to operate... It definitely feels a bit less warm than the xlite but should be plenty sufficient for 3 season camping (plus the new version is warmer). And last but not least the confort is pretty good again comparing it to the xlite, I sleep on my stomach with wide spread arms and really appreciate width and stability of the Regular wide version. I don't really sea the thickness difference with the xlite to be honest but it's not a problem for me
To conclude I think i will be a great pad if it consent to stay inflated haha (sorry for my mistakes I'm a French guy ^^)
@@KevInpouich Pas problème mon ami et desolé pour mon Français, je suis Ecossais. L’Alliance Vieux!
Thanks for your excellent answer, it really is appreciated my friend. I just bought a new tent, footprint and tarp so I better not buy anything else this month. 😂 Thanks again.
The light colour of the tiger wall puts me off, makes it so bright inside.
Great video. Do you know of a tent that is comparable to the Copper Spur?
Have a look at the Mont moondance tents...
The Tiger Wall is my favorite tent ever. I'm starting to consider the Durston for next year though.
Those plastic clips for attaching the fly on the Tiger Wall would be a real pain to deal with if one broke in a storm. MSR's fly attachment is also easier to deal with when wearing gloves or mitts.
can you see inside at night from the outside if you have the light on
really great comparison. thank you
Good Review. Does the cut out side of the MSR have a tie out point that you could stake out to get some extra ventilation.
yup!
I’ve had the older (now discontinued) model of the Tiger Wall for a few years (snagged it on sale right as they were on the way out). I really like it, but idk how suitable it would be as a true 2 person tent… It’s definitely cozy. It does have super decent head room, though. I also like the structured foot box, it keeps a good distance between the corner of the tent and your sleeping bag/ pad. The most annoying part was mine didn’t come with enough stakes, and the guy lines are really short and not adjustable. I really dislike the new model’s door design, and it sounds like the zip on the fly is worse now too. I’ve never really had problems with my older model but I do have to take care not to snag the zip. If I ever need to replace, I think I’ll go for a Nemo Hornet or a different BA model rather than the new design.
I love my big Agnes Tiger wall. Sold my msr as I think it was way to low. Could not even sit up straight and I am not big at all.
How does this feel in cold weather? Say 15-20°F ?
I really like your content Justin. Glad you made the leap to full time YT. And also glad that bear didn’t get ya!
Question about affiliate links? What if I'm buying in-store vs online, how can I still support ur channel?
Nothing for in-store, but thanks for asking!
My MSR HHNX got wrecked the first night I had it. It was windy but it’s too feeble for Scotland. I only buy Hilleberg now, expensive, heavy, yes but totally bombproof.
That's why I call the MSR tents "summer camping tents". They're not designed for exposed conditions or severe weather.
@@Zak_McKracken That is precisely what they are, unfortunately here in Scotland, the weather can turn very nasty, even in summer very quickly. I like MSR cooking gear but I won’t buy their tents, no sir.
Guess it's just a matter of personal preference, and what's actually in stock when you are looking to buy 🙂
It's ALWAYS this.
How do they both cope with wind? Here in the UK we have very windy and wet conditions on a regular basis. I have a DCF trekking pole tent but would like an UL free standing tent if possible
I was almost excited. I previously owned the tiger wall and loved it except that it is NOT free standing. Looks like the MSR is the same. Though that shouldn’t be a dealbreaker it was for me. I live near Yosemite. Granite. Too many frustrations each and every time trying to stake out the bottom 1/2. I now own the copper spur. Slightly heavier, but in good weather I’m known to just stake out the vestibule and call ‘er done.
Love the MSR but my only concern is that the rain fly doesn't come all the way down on one side. What are your thoughts?
Lol watch the video he shares his thoughts on it
What about the Nemo hornet?
Hi Justin, I love your inspiring channel! I have a request. I noticed that all of the backpacking UA-camrs recommend down products, but no one talks about cruelty-free down. About 80% of down is plucked from birds that are still alive, which is torturous. Even American companies often partake in this because they source their down from China, which doesn't have animal cruelty laws. Whenever you recommend a down product, can you briefly mention whether it's cruelty-free or not? Or at least caution your viewers to check?? Thank you! So many people watch your channel so it would make a huge difference!
Beginners have no idea there's an animal cruelty issue when it comes to down, so it would be amazing if you let them know.
Tiger wall and freelite have too much mesh. Good in theory but in practice I prefer higher solid walls because when the wind blows it kicks up dust everywhere inside the tent. And wind is everywhere when going outdoors. Moreover solid walls don't necessarily add or reduce condensation depending on the type of solid materials. Not sure why big agnes went from the more solid design from 2018-2019 to the all mesh in 2020. Just a backwards move IMHO
Very valid points about the amount of mesh, indeed. My guess, without knowing the weight of BA TW before 2020, would be that Big Agnes changed to mesh to reduce total weight of the tent (assuming mesh is lighter than solid material per area).
Brilliant content, thanks so much!
I love my tiger wall but the bottom split open and I have to repair it. I was using the footprint too, which didn’t split. I was in a slightly rocky are in CO when it happened. And I had only used it a few times previously here in NY. I can’t figure out what happened.
Take it easy in there
From experience you can set up the fly first with ground sheet from msr
Not with the new "universal" groundsheets (I've chatted with MSR about this). Maybe there is a hack I am missing?
@@JustinOutdoors - I don't know about the Freelite, but for the Hubba Hubba there are hacks for adding rings to the universal footprint that let you pitch fly first. From REI's reviews of the footprint, "Works perfectly with my Hubba Hubba NX 2, but only after I took another reviewers idea to add split rings to the four corners. I ended up using stainless steel 8mm lock washers from the local hardware store - perfect fit. Simply use two pairs of pliers to slightly open it up, thread it onto the footprint's grey tie down, then use the pliers to twist them back to flush. The other reviewer mentioned using split rings from the fishing store but didn't list the size.... The ones I had on hand were too big and too small." This has worked well for my Hubba Hubba.
In the end of the video you’re refering to the durston tent as «an even lighter tent», but it’s heavier than the freestanding tents.
Fair! Oops! It is roomier though! haha
I'm testing out my tiger wall ul 2 I don't think there is really enough room for two people. That could just be my opinion though.
Rainproofing seems to be a common and major design flaw common to American designed tents... you'd think that given how much rain the Cascades get, a tent designed in Washington state would be more rain optimized... both for when the tent doors are open, and when pitching. Those flaws alone would convince me to not consider either of these tents. I'd rather use a tarp and a bug bivy, though bugs aren't an issue when it's raining.
I don’t know if it’s been said, but, 2 problems with MSR Company/tent #1. MSR poles have a tendency to break and #2 MSR customer service is a nightmare to deal with: they take forever to respond if they don’t outright Ghost You‼️
Damn! I likenthe freelite, but i use rectangular sleeping mats. So i am kind of stuck with the MSR
Hydrostatic rating?
How come nobody shows the packed size of these? Especially the poles.
How does Nemo Hornet 2p compare to these?
Waiting for the release of the Hornet OSMO to see! That OSMO fabric looks amazing.
Someone should really make an ultralight freestanding tent out of poly
AGREED! Marmot had the Tungsten UL series, which I think was the best we've had for freestanding tents.
@@JustinOutdoors Looks like ~47oz for the 2P. One of these years I'll give it a shot :)
@@durstongear I can't wait to see what else you have up your sleeve moving forward!
MSR can be set up fly first see Paul Messner’s vlog on the MSR tent.
Can be, with some hacking. But most people out there likely won't want to fiddle around with that.
The Freelight is nice but I feel like your giving up some nice features for the sake of weight savings. No fly only mode is a dealbreaker for me.
BA for the win. When your over 6' tall the extra 2 inches in length is huge.
8:48 the cm width of the msr is swapped with the cm
Hi! Have you ever tried tents from decathlon like forclaz MT900?
Not yet!
I have a MT900 and a Tiger wall. Both are very nice but the mt900 is heavier and probably longer lasting
How do the sea to summits tents stack up to these?
Interesting how MSR is adopting Moss's original colour scheme, funny, especially since MSR bought out Moss. (I think that's right.)
freestanding or semi freestanding?
Both are semi-freestanding
J Money G. Always a pleasure.
For me this new freelite is more between the Nemo Hornet and the Big Agnes Tiger wall
Big advantage of the Nemo hornet in my opinion is partial solid interior wall to block cold wind and blowing dust (and a bit of splash effect), something that the previous tiger wall had :'( and the setup of the hornet is also juste a liiiiitle bit faster because you don't have to care about the top pole (volumizing clips are easier)
But yes for the freelite, this door and top pole design is trash in my opinion...
Plus the hornet is cheaper, lighter, and has those awesome light diffusers built in
I have the old tiger wall design, I cannot believe they changed the door design. If it doesn’t come back any time soon, and I ever need a replacement, I’ll be looking into Nemo Hornets.
I don't believe at all that you don't get water through the cutout on the msr, you just said that the nylon will soak all the water. This is also my experience with a Nemo which had the same design. My solution is to use a polycro ground sheet and extend it to the cutout, but i didn't tested it yet.
Wind and rain. You don't discuss getting hit by rain driven in sideways by wind. The fly needs to protect the inner from all directions, not just the rain from directly above.
Just saying, I'd rather carry a Tarptent or Zpacks tent for the weight. Your knees will thank you!
Justin your videos are always really good. But this seems more like it should have been called which tent that you're forced to wake up at 6am when the sun comes up regardless of if you want to or not, is better. Seems sleeping is the reason I couldn't be a hiker haha.
big agnes
The original Freelite is so much better. Always odd when they reinvent the wheel.
Msr all the way
MSR ALL DAY
Uh...I'll take aluminum grommets over plastic buckles all day long
The Freelite2 is a 1-person tent. End of story
The Freelight is designed to be set up fly first. Video is wrong when it says it is not.
How does the foot-end pole attach to the fly?
I have a fat cat named Agnes.
Neither, Marmot UL Tungsten is the best.
I am REALLY hoping they are doing a minor redesign and re-releasing it. Probably my favorite freestanding tent ever.
No offense dude but it’s aggravating all these tests and reviews on $500 tents or on camping gear in general. I’m not rich and I know most people arnt either. I know it’s not your fault but just something.
If you're looking for a still-lightweight hiking tent for less scratch, the Naturehike Mongar is nigh-universally well-reviewed.
I have a dedicated playlist for affordable backpacking gear. Check it out on my channel page! TONS of items there.
think it like that, one night in the tent is one hotel night saved
@@cristibaluta what hotels do you stay in 😂
@@JohnZook78 Did you ever thought to do a biketrip in iceland? But even in banana countries i think it's possible to get your money worth back.
msr zippers are a major weak point.
Neither, both overpriced and poorly designed imo.
Neither of these tents are good!!!!!! Six Moons Designs Lunar Solo for the WIN!!!!!!!!!!!